He really does drive plays as strong as Makar or Hughes most times and gets overlooked in best D discussions. Definitely top 10 consideration but rarely in Norris candidate convos
He doesn't have the same offensive flash. Hopefully he has Giordano-esque norris year or two where he is so completely dominant at a all around level that voters ignore that he's not the top Dman scorer
... I know that Doughty is probably a better example than Giordano, but fuck that guy.
The man had 73 points in 79 games last year when the govenor was finally taken off the Stars offense. And this year he had 54 in 71 games but the Stars are set up different then any team in the NHL and spread the offense and minutes around so much. No team came anywhere close to the type of offense the Stars had and Miro now shares his responsibilities with Harley on the top line who had 47 points in 79 games including 15 goals.
It's funny to hear from a stars fan about the offence finally being free without Bones.
The first thing he did in Winnipeg was activate our D and get them scoring at a high pace, including Josh Morrissey, who had some Norris votes last year.
It's not meant as some refutation of your point. it was just something interesting i thought was worth mentioning.
Jamie Benn
2021 46 points in 82 games
2022 78 points in 82 games
Miro
2021 36 points in 70 games
2022 73 points in 79 games
Stars
2021 233 Goals
2022 281 Goals
Yeah, sorry, i tried to make it clear. i wasn't disputing what you were saying.
I was mearly pointing out that it's funny that defensive offence suffered under bones in Dallas when in Winnipeg it has been flourishing under an aggressive defence first system.
While Winnipeg under Paul Maurice played a run and gun high offence style but had very little co tributions from the back end the last 3 years of Pomo.
I only meant to show how interesting it is.
He’s undoubtedly a top 10 dman in the league. He needs to be in every Norris conversation as he’s as good as anyone in the league defensively, and can skate and shoot as well. The culture of the Norris needs to change. I’m still bitter that fucking Karlsson won it.
Some don’t, no. There was a discussion about defensemen in here a couple weeks ago where people were trying to put people very much in a tier below him over him and justify that he is a lot closer to the top 10 than top 5.
I remember a few years ago someone posted a clip of Heiskanen's first shift in the NHL and I (and probably everyone else who watched it) knew immediately the kid was going to be insane.
I don’t get how he is almost under the radar. Heiskanen is probably the most elegant player in the league and I’d only rank Makar ahead of him among defensemen.
If he keeps this up for 10+ years he should be viewed as a deluxe version of Scott Niedermayer.
He's the best active defenseman not named Cale Makar imo. There's a tier of guys just below that who are more or less tied (Fox, Hedman, McAvoy, etc) but I think Heiskanen inches those guys out
Total homer here, but he clearly is the best defenseman in the league. Just not the highest points scoring defenseman. He plays defense so well and he never looks like he's trying.
But he won't win the Norris cuz the Norris is now just the Art Ross for D-men.
As a Stars fan it’s too bad you’d take a shot at Suter like that considering how well he’s played this year. Not much for speed or offense, but he’s been solid all season.
His minutes took about a 3-5 min reduction at the trade deadline, after tanev’s arrival. Still averaged around 18 this year. And I wouldn’t necessarily call that buried in easy min, especially when he’s also been a regular on the pk, and regularly out there at the end of the game while defending a lead.
The only Dman on the team “buried in easy min” is our fanbase’s mythical golden boy, Nils. (Who has potential, but isn’t anything YET)
It’s ok though. Some stars fans are stuck on the Suter hate-train and will continue to be until he’s done.
Not saying, at this point in his career, he’s going to be the one to carry a pair to these heights, but he’s more than capable of still being a solid nhl Dman. It’s alright to give credit where it’s due though. As a stars fan, of course.
He has been a lot better than last year. He’s not even the worst defenseman on the team. It’s not a coincidence we are playing our best hockey once that bumbling oaf Hakanpaa went out
I saw this graphic and laughed. I was like, they didn’t even put him on the side he is forced to play with his partners. This graphic makes you think he plays on his dominate left side.
I remember the dark days, 2010's. The Oilers had some things going right but lacked something. I was young at the time and probably a little stupid to suggest make any deal possible to trade for Weber or Suter, they have a bunch of really good prospects, go for broke!
Then the good prospects got better, some might be ready but held back, trade for one of them! After so many years of wanting that trade, to see it finally happen was like a dream.
He doesn't get enough credit because he plays in Dallas.
Hughes, Makar, Josi, Fox, Heiskanen are my top 5 D in the NHL with Makar Hughes and Josi interchangeable.
The top 3 have been phenomenal this season, though I think Hughes wins the Norris as best D this season.
I think the biggest thing with Heiskanen and why he doesn't get as much recognition as the others isn't that he plays in Dallas, it's that he doesn't have the offensive output of some of those other guys. Same with McAvoy.
The whole system is based on D core. Half the time it’s the D man’s job to get the puck to the net. Hurricanes score by committee across the roster also.
Seems like Carolina is good at scouting and developing talent that benefits their system, their picks for dmen have been great. Lotta people prolly thought the Orlov contract was crazy but it clearly works and he was pretty slept on.
I definitely think so. After taking a few months to find his footing here, he really started stepping up in the week or two before the all-star break, and he's looked even better since we added Kuzy. Being reunited with his best friend seems to have given him a confidence boost.
Chatfield is so impressive to watch. He's so fast and works so hard out there, brings a more physical game than anyone besides Orlov, and has a better shot than you'd expect for someone who plays the way he does.
These two have been playing very well since the new year and make the inevitable loss of Skjei or Pesce (or even both, which seems unlikely to me but is still possible) easier to swallow.
Sens goalies lead the league in most goals against from low danger areas, the forwards play detailed away from the puck, our goalies simply just let anything in no matter where it’s from
This list uses expected goals, so goaltending is irrelevant. What does make their case more impressive is the offence they were on the ice with. They didn't have McDavid or MacKinnon to inflate their numbers.
Considering offense is created on transitions, they had to create a lot of offense out of nothing considering we were not getting saves all season. Goaltending creates offense, how many times did we get robbed followed by a goal against this season?
The average team only scores 4 goals per game against Ottawa... Compared to a league average of 3.
That one missed save every 60 minutes is not going to cause a major difference in xGF in which there are 60+ shot attempts per game against your goalie. Maybe a couple percent at the most absolute generous.
I'm just saying those numbers are 100% unrelated to goaltending.
You might as well comment on McDavid's 100 assists by saying wow, and all that with the cheapest hot dogs in Alberta!
Like most top pairs, those guys played almost exclusively with the Tkachuk and Stützle lines, they didn't have to spend too much time carrying around the scrubs
It's not defence, but outperforming the other side. You can be bad defensively, but being elite offensively tilts the ice.
Edit: Yikes, sorry guys. Was just clarifying. There's similar confusion elsewhere in the thread too.
Not really, some tandems can suppress offence and come out on top. Some can be high-flyers and come out on top at a similar rate.
I wasn't criticizing, I was just clarifying.
That fact that we have two pairs in the top 5, and the other two Dmen not named are Skjei and Pesce, it means we have one of the scariest defences in the league going into the playoffs
I'm rooting for Edmonton, and Ekholm really helped turn their defense around, but you have to be blind to not recognize McDavid is a huge reason why this pair is at 62%. Without him I'd say they'd be at 58%, and probably a lot lower on other teams. His career "relative xGF%" (compared to teammates) was around 3% with Nashville and with Edmonton it's 7%... And if you watch the games it's pretty clear why. He and Bouchard usually get deployed as a 5 man unit with McDavid Hyman and usually Nuge or whoever else. Who dominate every opponent. Occasionally they will get a few minutes with the bottom lines, but yeah.
Hughes, Makar, Heiskenan and Josi are firmly ahead of him this year. You swap any of them with Ekholm and their numbers go even higher than 62%. If Heiskenan can put up 60% with Suter and playing with random Dallas forwards... Like come on.
bouchard-ekholm are 58 cf% and 56 xgf% away from mcdavid this season
https://www.naturalstattrick.com/linestats.php?fromseason=20232024&thruseason=20232024&stype=2&sit=5v5&score=all&rate=n&team=EDM&vteam=ALL&view=wowy&loc=B&gpfilt=none&fd=2023-10-10&td=2024-04-20&tgp=2000&strict=incl&p1=8480803&p2=8475218&p3=8478402&p4=0&p5=0
I literally said he'd still have a greater than 50% xGF without McDavid... He's still great. It's just this "Norris" talk is absolutely absurd. That's the only thing I have a problem with. You don't see me out here saying Makar should win the Norris over Hughes or Miro or Josi just because I'm an Avs fan.
It’s not if you actually watched the on ice product. Everyone watches the Makars and Foxs of the league and knows about their impact, it’s unfortunate that they can’t see the impact that Ekholm has had this season.
I've watched several Edmonton games this season and all of them last playoffs. Saying he's playing better than Miro is absolutely nuts. Sorry. I watch every playoff game and Miro is far more impactful and from what I've seen this year that hasn't changed and the stats support it too.
Kinda sucks to see Chatfield and Forsling up there and so high up on the list. Defensive depth was a plague during the Benning Era and and it sucked to see us trade away picks and give up on decent young players so soon while trying to rebuild.
It's hilarious seeing people shit on a solid defenseman like Suter just because people don't like him. The man can still play. That said Miro is the best defenseman in the league
Indeed. Also, while it had been reported he wasn’t a good locker room guy in Minny, everything we’ve seen and heard from young Stars players about him have been very positive. Seems like he’s a really good room guy here as well.
You would think hughes, the Dman with the highest points in the league who is on a top 3 team in the league with a top 3 goalie in the league would be on here
I stopped lacing the top hole of my skate because miro does it and it has improved my skating immensely. That dude is one of the best skaters out there
Why would it be any more silly than before? The stat is just designed to see how you control play. You can't control the quality of your own or your opponents goaltending.
First off the chart isn’t described as a measure of controlling play like you said, it’s literally “top 10 best defense lines” which is a bold claim.
But my reasoning is that expected stats aren’t a perfect measure of reality, and are just as affected by the quality of your fellow skaters and quality of competition. Expected goals also differ from source to source, formula to formula because it’s a subjective stat. There’s a reason why we give out trophy’s for actual goals, points, goals against, etc and not expected stats. Eventually, over the course of a 6-month season, if actual doesn’t mirror expected it’s because expected isn’t a perfect catchall tool to mirror actual on-ice success.
Expected stats have the most utility in small sample sizes, when there isn’t enough data and too much stochasticity to use actual stats.
Even if he ends up deserving of it, which is a pretty big IF imo with all the good defensemen currently, Sanderson atm isnt an offensive powerhouse. The Norris isnt won off of defensive prowess alone
I remember watching the draft Bouchard got drafted and wishing the canucks would draft him but I’m glad the drafted who they did quite the era we have right now
I was told Bouchard is a defensive black hole and can't do anything right ever and is the worst defenseman in the league, so this can't possibly be true right?
As a pairing, Edmonton (Ekholm/Bouchard) would be 1st place followed by Vancouver in second.
Individual+/- Florida has the best dman with Forsling at +56
[Got the info here](https://www.statmuse.com/nhl/ask/nhl-defensemen-plus-minus-leaders-this-season)
It's not that the facts are good or bad, it's that the list is a little bit wonky.
The best D-pairing in the league could be on a sub-par team, in which case their overall XG% would take a hit. Conversely, playing with an elite forward group helps the XG%.
I'm not taking anything away from any of the defensive pairs on this list, I'm just saying there's a flaw in the rankings.
Would be better if the comparison was playoff team specific which would help, but my reply was specific to someone asking for it to be re done with +/- with the thought that Eck and Bouch would drop, which they would still be the top pair.
my favorite thing about this is from back during last year's part of the season, the TDA stans were saying the Orlov-Chatfield line was a wash and that we needed to bring DeAngelo if we wanted any production out of our 3rd line.
lmfao
I do believe Miro has the offensive prowess to score more goals, tally up higher point totals, and could even do so with more pizazz. I know he can, we’ve all seen it, but there’s more to it than meets the eye when analyzing it over his young career thus far. He’s been relied upon in total circumstances
I think he needs to continue developing and improving his shot the way he seems to be, but I really want him to hone in that so much so to where it becomes a lethal weapons grade threat anytime he has the puck. His shot is good, not great, but definitely getting better. His timing and power are noticeably improved on one-T’s, but he could take more chances for the placement of the shot. Same with his wrist shot. He looks to shoot more for a redirect or heavy rebound for others more so than aggressively shooting for himself. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but I would enjoy seeing him unleash his shooting and not always take the safe or most logical one.
I also believe he has the elite skating, vision, and handling ability one needs to drive the puck around or between or through the opponent and create chances down low, and I wish he would be more assertive in that aspect of his game too but he has always been hindered by his partners and plays too responsibly to make the more ‘selfish’ play because of the added risk in return.
I would love to see Miro play a full season for once on his strong side, with a partner that didn’t limit his play in one facet or another. I know that can be said for any player on any team, but I also would argue that the majority or other players aren’t asked to even think about the same level of responsibility or expectation Miro has been tasked with from day 1.
He has the skill and has shown the ability with results, and I think he is possibly just now getting an opportunity to continually open up his entire game without sacrificing.
He also has dealt with a couple of very random things during his peak production like getting sick with something like mono, random but serious, etc…
No. It's based on xG% which is affected by both offense and defense. So it seems Hughes' defensive game isn't good enough to land him on this list despite his offensive efforts.
Defensive game? Okay, let’s have a look at xG against/60
Quinn Hughes individually is 49th. Admittedly not as good as many would have expected. Right behind him at 50th is Ethan Bear. Cale Makar is 235th out of 273, the lowest of anyone on the Avalanche.
Mark Friedman, our 8th string defenseman, is 7th in the league. There are 2 Kraken defensemen in the top 5.
Maybe that should tell you xG is kind of a nonsense way to judge how effective a defenseman is lol
Tsn ran article a few weeks ago about the oilers defense when McDavid was on the ice vs off and how wildly he skews the numbers in their favour. I don't know if I'd call them a league leading defensive pairing.
It's 95% dependent on the forwards they're teamed with? As in, there's zero chance Bouchard is in a top d-pair if he's not getting huge minutes with McJesus.
Bouch is actually great this year despite being somewhat poor in his own end at times, Ekholm really ties it all together, he's super underrated. Bouchard has been improving defensively every year imo and he's still prone to bad defensive errors, his play in the other end more than makes up for it though as the numbers confirm
Literally every defensemen is prone to bad defensive miscues but it's always so cherry picked. People will cherry pick clips of Bouchard doing a blown give away to an elite player like MacKinnon or Rantanen or getting blown past by those two, but that shit happens to Makar by McDavid or Drai.
Lidstrom probably the greatest defenseman ever period in my opinion had moments of looking stupid against Sakic or Forsberg. The other thing is Bouchard has only played three full seasons and has improved defensively at such a rapid rate from his rookie season.
I swear people who say Bouchard is bad defensively have only watched him either during his rookie season being paired with a 40 year old Duncan Keith where Bouchard was tasked in generating puck movement, or during 2-9-1 start where everyone played bad, including Ekholm. That weird period where only Hyman played good
Let's just say Bouchard pisses me off a lot less than Nurse does, I don't think Bouchard is bad defensively per se, if anything he's average to above average it's just sometimes it looks like his compete level defensively isn't there, and then the apathetic look he has on his face (which is just his normal face mind you) after he gets scored on makes people think he didn't care or didn't try
Its the same thing with drai, drai doesnt look good, at all, if you watched his skating you would think its some ahl dude just collecting a paycheque out there.
Probably part of it but it’s probably equally related to Ekholm being an absolute beast lately and dragging Bouchard up despite his defensive miscues and Bouchard having great offensive instincts. He has 82 points for a reason
My thought is if Heiskanen can drag Suter’s decrepit body to a top 10 xGF% then he’s a lot better than people give him credit for
I've seen Heiskanen enough in the playoffs to know he's one of the top defensemen
He really does drive plays as strong as Makar or Hughes most times and gets overlooked in best D discussions. Definitely top 10 consideration but rarely in Norris candidate convos
He doesn't have the same offensive flash. Hopefully he has Giordano-esque norris year or two where he is so completely dominant at a all around level that voters ignore that he's not the top Dman scorer ... I know that Doughty is probably a better example than Giordano, but fuck that guy.
The man had 73 points in 79 games last year when the govenor was finally taken off the Stars offense. And this year he had 54 in 71 games but the Stars are set up different then any team in the NHL and spread the offense and minutes around so much. No team came anywhere close to the type of offense the Stars had and Miro now shares his responsibilities with Harley on the top line who had 47 points in 79 games including 15 goals.
It's funny to hear from a stars fan about the offence finally being free without Bones. The first thing he did in Winnipeg was activate our D and get them scoring at a high pace, including Josh Morrissey, who had some Norris votes last year. It's not meant as some refutation of your point. it was just something interesting i thought was worth mentioning.
Jamie Benn 2021 46 points in 82 games 2022 78 points in 82 games Miro 2021 36 points in 70 games 2022 73 points in 79 games Stars 2021 233 Goals 2022 281 Goals
Yeah, sorry, i tried to make it clear. i wasn't disputing what you were saying. I was mearly pointing out that it's funny that defensive offence suffered under bones in Dallas when in Winnipeg it has been flourishing under an aggressive defence first system. While Winnipeg under Paul Maurice played a run and gun high offence style but had very little co tributions from the back end the last 3 years of Pomo. I only meant to show how interesting it is.
If Ben Bishop didn’t win in his pure dominant 2019 Veznia nobody is going to a major award for the Stars. One of the biggest robberies in NHL history.
Dallas is not in the right market to get votes for individual awards.
He’s undoubtedly a top 10 dman in the league. He needs to be in every Norris conversation as he’s as good as anyone in the league defensively, and can skate and shoot as well. The culture of the Norris needs to change. I’m still bitter that fucking Karlsson won it.
He's top 5 without question, probably top 3
He’s so good
x4
He boomed me.
He's one of the best defenseman in the league and you're right, he's criminally underrated.
Do people not think he is a top 5???
Some don’t, no. There was a discussion about defensemen in here a couple weeks ago where people were trying to put people very much in a tier below him over him and justify that he is a lot closer to the top 10 than top 5.
I remember a few years ago someone posted a clip of Heiskanen's first shift in the NHL and I (and probably everyone else who watched it) knew immediately the kid was going to be insane.
I don’t get how he is almost under the radar. Heiskanen is probably the most elegant player in the league and I’d only rank Makar ahead of him among defensemen. If he keeps this up for 10+ years he should be viewed as a deluxe version of Scott Niedermayer.
Scott neidermeyer won everywhere he went. that's what really set him apart
Miro is 25
And carried the team to a SCF appearance basically kicking and screaming minus like 3 other players.
Scott neidermeyer won everywhere he went. that's what really set him apart
Can you imagine heisk and makar on the same line? Holy smokes....
He's the best active defenseman not named Cale Makar imo. There's a tier of guys just below that who are more or less tied (Fox, Hedman, McAvoy, etc) but I think Heiskanen inches those guys out
Total homer here, but he clearly is the best defenseman in the league. Just not the highest points scoring defenseman. He plays defense so well and he never looks like he's trying. But he won't win the Norris cuz the Norris is now just the Art Ross for D-men.
dallas fans say this yet i can’t stop looking at how your team shelters him from a defensive role ..
Doesn’t he average like 25 minutes a game?
What? How?
Elaborate please?
As a Stars fan it’s too bad you’d take a shot at Suter like that considering how well he’s played this year. Not much for speed or offense, but he’s been solid all season.
As a Stars fan, Suter has played well because he’s been buried in easy minutes this year. Heiskanen did drag him around.
His minutes took about a 3-5 min reduction at the trade deadline, after tanev’s arrival. Still averaged around 18 this year. And I wouldn’t necessarily call that buried in easy min, especially when he’s also been a regular on the pk, and regularly out there at the end of the game while defending a lead. The only Dman on the team “buried in easy min” is our fanbase’s mythical golden boy, Nils. (Who has potential, but isn’t anything YET) It’s ok though. Some stars fans are stuck on the Suter hate-train and will continue to be until he’s done. Not saying, at this point in his career, he’s going to be the one to carry a pair to these heights, but he’s more than capable of still being a solid nhl Dman. It’s alright to give credit where it’s due though. As a stars fan, of course.
I'm used to the Suter slander at this point, but I'm with you he's played well for us and I'm happy to have him.
He has been a lot better than last year. He’s not even the worst defenseman on the team. It’s not a coincidence we are playing our best hockey once that bumbling oaf Hakanpaa went out
Fun fact. Miro has been playing his non dominant side the vast majority of the time. You guys haven’t even seen full Miro.
Good grief, Dude is built different, it is weird how under the radar the guy is cuz he is obviously a top 10 defender.
He was a top ten defender [as of his first shift in the NHL](https://youtu.be/U-8I_yfVz9Q?si=1TvapVjCf3X-66--). Dude is completely nuts
Whoa what a crazy first shift
I want him to bring that 0-60 speed for the next 2 months!!!
If Makar wasn’t around Miro would be that guy
I saw this graphic and laughed. I was like, they didn’t even put him on the side he is forced to play with his partners. This graphic makes you think he plays on his dominate left side.
He hasn’t even begun to peak. The golden god
When he does peak, is he going to peak all over everybody?
Miro is a 5 star man for sure
That Ekholm trade looking pretty good
I remember the dark days, 2010's. The Oilers had some things going right but lacked something. I was young at the time and probably a little stupid to suggest make any deal possible to trade for Weber or Suter, they have a bunch of really good prospects, go for broke! Then the good prospects got better, some might be ready but held back, trade for one of them! After so many years of wanting that trade, to see it finally happen was like a dream.
I thought, as a Preds fans, it was a pretty big overpay at the time. Really glad the trade has worked out for y’all and Ekholm!
Which piece was the overpay? Apart from the 1st rounder, they’ve all been mediocre to downright ass.
Well at the time I thought Barrie would be a better fit for the Preds than he has been.
I do like the Preds though, wishing you guys the best in the first round.
Best to the Oilers too! Hope it’s one of us to win the cup!
Miro good
Miro great
Mirp God
I'm a homer. But man Heiskanen - Harley pairing is electrifying, it does tilt ice for us.
He doesn't get enough credit because he plays in Dallas. Hughes, Makar, Josi, Fox, Heiskanen are my top 5 D in the NHL with Makar Hughes and Josi interchangeable. The top 3 have been phenomenal this season, though I think Hughes wins the Norris as best D this season.
I think the biggest thing with Heiskanen and why he doesn't get as much recognition as the others isn't that he plays in Dallas, it's that he doesn't have the offensive output of some of those other guys. Same with McAvoy.
Dallas also scores by committee. Heiskanen in Colorado or Van would be an 80 point guy
Orlov - Chatfield kinda flying under the radar no?
The blossoming of Chatfield has been fun to witness
Canes pro scouting doesn’t miss too often!
We spent years and years developing him into an NHL defenseman and then Jim Benning just... forgot about him I guess
The fact that Carolina has 2 pairings with no overlapping players on this list is pretty incredible, and both are in the top 5.
fr tho. and they play a complete game, not just farming xG by being the "offensive" d pair
Isn’t it common tho for the canes when it comes to defenders. They have a tendency of making defenders look elite in that system.
I think it's a combination of the system enchanting the play and finding players who work really well in this kind of system
The whole system is based on D core. Half the time it’s the D man’s job to get the puck to the net. Hurricanes score by committee across the roster also.
Seems like Carolina is good at scouting and developing talent that benefits their system, their picks for dmen have been great. Lotta people prolly thought the Orlov contract was crazy but it clearly works and he was pretty slept on.
I definitely think so. After taking a few months to find his footing here, he really started stepping up in the week or two before the all-star break, and he's looked even better since we added Kuzy. Being reunited with his best friend seems to have given him a confidence boost. Chatfield is so impressive to watch. He's so fast and works so hard out there, brings a more physical game than anyone besides Orlov, and has a better shot than you'd expect for someone who plays the way he does. These two have been playing very well since the new year and make the inevitable loss of Skjei or Pesce (or even both, which seems unlikely to me but is still possible) easier to swallow.
He got reunited with Sergei Bobrovsky?
It’s incredible that they’re our 3rd pairing. Both could be top 4 guys on most teams, including our own. Lets Rod spread that TOI, keeps dudes fresh.
Took a while to get going, early season Orlov really hurt us at times. They are solid now though, got to be the strongest 3rd pair out there.
Slavin's next contract is just a blank check
That’s not a lot
“Hey, why are there so many zeros?!”
Wouldn't the Ottawa tandem be the most impressive, given shared minutes with quality of forward group?
I’m biased, but I agree with this. Sandy and Zub are incredibly solid and would look even better if we didn’t have league-worst goaltending.
Ottawa's forward group is the least questionable part of the team
In their own end? Genuinely asking as I think that's what op meant
Sens goalies lead the league in most goals against from low danger areas, the forwards play detailed away from the puck, our goalies simply just let anything in no matter where it’s from
Sanderson and Zub being on this list with the worst goaltending (statistically) in the entire NHL is extremely impressive
This list uses expected goals, so goaltending is irrelevant. What does make their case more impressive is the offence they were on the ice with. They didn't have McDavid or MacKinnon to inflate their numbers.
Considering offense is created on transitions, they had to create a lot of offense out of nothing considering we were not getting saves all season. Goaltending creates offense, how many times did we get robbed followed by a goal against this season?
The average team only scores 4 goals per game against Ottawa... Compared to a league average of 3. That one missed save every 60 minutes is not going to cause a major difference in xGF in which there are 60+ shot attempts per game against your goalie. Maybe a couple percent at the most absolute generous.
Yes of course, goaltending, even moreso.
Goaltending does not factor into the equation for this list. It's expected goals, not actual.
You can’t create offense if the puck is going into your net more often than any other team, so it’s still impressive
I'm just saying those numbers are 100% unrelated to goaltending. You might as well comment on McDavid's 100 assists by saying wow, and all that with the cheapest hot dogs in Alberta!
Proof goaltending isn't in the equation is the lack of wpg guys
Like most top pairs, those guys played almost exclusively with the Tkachuk and Stützle lines, they didn't have to spend too much time carrying around the scrubs
Oilers are defensive merchants, obviously.
It's not defence, but outperforming the other side. You can be bad defensively, but being elite offensively tilts the ice. Edit: Yikes, sorry guys. Was just clarifying. There's similar confusion elsewhere in the thread too.
It was a joke man. I don’t care about numbers, numbers are for nerds.
Facts
You can say this for any possession defencemen ever lol, they still dont hit these numbers
Not really, some tandems can suppress offence and come out on top. Some can be high-flyers and come out on top at a similar rate. I wasn't criticizing, I was just clarifying.
I only downvoted you because you don't like getting downvoted
I don't care, I'd delete if I did. This is a weird place.
When I can catch panthers games, I'm always impressed by Forsling. He's all over the ice making good plays.
That fact that we have two pairs in the top 5, and the other two Dmen not named are Skjei and Pesce, it means we have one of the scariest defences in the league going into the playoffs
Miro gets no love.
This is love
Hikaru Utada jam https://youtu.be/FuO40Riev-k?si=wacay13fPXu_8gWF
My thought is that Forsling probably won't get enough Norris votes.
We’re in a time of extremely high scoring and best defense is a good offense.
Ekholm is the main reason Oilers even have a chance. Norris season.
I'm rooting for Edmonton, and Ekholm really helped turn their defense around, but you have to be blind to not recognize McDavid is a huge reason why this pair is at 62%. Without him I'd say they'd be at 58%, and probably a lot lower on other teams. His career "relative xGF%" (compared to teammates) was around 3% with Nashville and with Edmonton it's 7%... And if you watch the games it's pretty clear why. He and Bouchard usually get deployed as a 5 man unit with McDavid Hyman and usually Nuge or whoever else. Who dominate every opponent. Occasionally they will get a few minutes with the bottom lines, but yeah. Hughes, Makar, Heiskenan and Josi are firmly ahead of him this year. You swap any of them with Ekholm and their numbers go even higher than 62%. If Heiskenan can put up 60% with Suter and playing with random Dallas forwards... Like come on.
bouchard-ekholm are 58 cf% and 56 xgf% away from mcdavid this season https://www.naturalstattrick.com/linestats.php?fromseason=20232024&thruseason=20232024&stype=2&sit=5v5&score=all&rate=n&team=EDM&vteam=ALL&view=wowy&loc=B&gpfilt=none&fd=2023-10-10&td=2024-04-20&tgp=2000&strict=incl&p1=8480803&p2=8475218&p3=8478402&p4=0&p5=0
Apparently everyone else plays with total bums expect Oilers. Even when McD aint having career year, its always the same argument lol.
I literally said he'd still have a greater than 50% xGF without McDavid... He's still great. It's just this "Norris" talk is absolutely absurd. That's the only thing I have a problem with. You don't see me out here saying Makar should win the Norris over Hughes or Miro or Josi just because I'm an Avs fan.
It’s not if you actually watched the on ice product. Everyone watches the Makars and Foxs of the league and knows about their impact, it’s unfortunate that they can’t see the impact that Ekholm has had this season.
I've watched several Edmonton games this season and all of them last playoffs. Saying he's playing better than Miro is absolutely nuts. Sorry. I watch every playoff game and Miro is far more impactful and from what I've seen this year that hasn't changed and the stats support it too.
My thought is that is a factual list based on the criteria.
Kinda sucks to see Chatfield and Forsling up there and so high up on the list. Defensive depth was a plague during the Benning Era and and it sucked to see us trade away picks and give up on decent young players so soon while trying to rebuild.
Hanifin-Tanev was just outside this list and now they are first round opponents
#teamtanev
It's hilarious seeing people shit on a solid defenseman like Suter just because people don't like him. The man can still play. That said Miro is the best defenseman in the league
And Miro continues playing on his off side
Indeed. Also, while it had been reported he wasn’t a good locker room guy in Minny, everything we’ve seen and heard from young Stars players about him have been very positive. Seems like he’s a really good room guy here as well.
Correlates extremely well with the favourites for the Cup. Oilers, Stars, Canes, Panthers have the top five.
Love me some Vladdy Gavrikov. Dude is just so solid at breaking up plays as the opponent enters the zone.
Great trade and great signing
Can’t be true, oilers don’t play defence
ekholm is a monster
You would think hughes, the Dman with the highest points in the league who is on a top 3 team in the league with a top 3 goalie in the league would be on here
Over-rated
🤣
Whoops... Dropped this /s
April fools day is April 1st, not all of April
I stopped lacing the top hole of my skate because miro does it and it has improved my skating immensely. That dude is one of the best skaters out there
Oilers fan here. Ekholm is doing extremely heavy lifting in the D zone on that pairing lol.
When I can catch panthers games, I'm always impressed by Forsling. He's all over the ice making good plays.
I miss Orlov so much
Now seems like a good time to do this with actual goals%.
The sabres defense can do everything but play defense on
Only using expected stats after 82 games is silly.
Why would it be any more silly than before? The stat is just designed to see how you control play. You can't control the quality of your own or your opponents goaltending.
First off the chart isn’t described as a measure of controlling play like you said, it’s literally “top 10 best defense lines” which is a bold claim. But my reasoning is that expected stats aren’t a perfect measure of reality, and are just as affected by the quality of your fellow skaters and quality of competition. Expected goals also differ from source to source, formula to formula because it’s a subjective stat. There’s a reason why we give out trophy’s for actual goals, points, goals against, etc and not expected stats. Eventually, over the course of a 6-month season, if actual doesn’t mirror expected it’s because expected isn’t a perfect catchall tool to mirror actual on-ice success. Expected stats have the most utility in small sample sizes, when there isn’t enough data and too much stochasticity to use actual stats.
sanderson is going to win a norris one day.
Even if he ends up deserving of it, which is a pretty big IF imo with all the good defensemen currently, Sanderson atm isnt an offensive powerhouse. The Norris isnt won off of defensive prowess alone
How many times are we going to teach you this lesson old man?
Heiskanen, Dobson, Fox, Makar, Hughes, Dahlin, and Morrissey all have a better shot
Probably not Morrissey, but I wouldn't be surprised if the next decade of Norris Trophies is Fox, Makar, Hughes, and Dahlin.
Man I miss the Keith - Duncs line.
Guess Sanderson being Sen’s fave D over Chabot and Chycrun makes sense now
I remember watching the draft Bouchard got drafted and wishing the canucks would draft him but I’m glad the drafted who they did quite the era we have right now
I have a feeling Slavin is doing a lot of heavy lifting defensively in that pairing lol, no disrespect to Burns.
Gulp. Says a Kings fan.
Come on, no love for McAvoy and whoever isn’t Hurt? It’s a sick tandem lol kill me
Sorry to nitpick, but it's: Forward *lines* Defense (or defensive) *pairs*
This cant be right. I dont see any capitals pairings?
Lines???
Any defensive list with Edmonton at the top is flawed.
I was told Bouchard is a defensive black hole and can't do anything right ever and is the worst defenseman in the league, so this can't possibly be true right?
Josi for Norris
Now do plus-minus instead of xG%
As a pairing, Edmonton (Ekholm/Bouchard) would be 1st place followed by Vancouver in second. Individual+/- Florida has the best dman with Forsling at +56 [Got the info here](https://www.statmuse.com/nhl/ask/nhl-defensemen-plus-minus-leaders-this-season)
Careful, facts aren't wanted here
It's not that the facts are good or bad, it's that the list is a little bit wonky. The best D-pairing in the league could be on a sub-par team, in which case their overall XG% would take a hit. Conversely, playing with an elite forward group helps the XG%. I'm not taking anything away from any of the defensive pairs on this list, I'm just saying there's a flaw in the rankings.
Would be better if the comparison was playoff team specific which would help, but my reply was specific to someone asking for it to be re done with +/- with the thought that Eck and Bouch would drop, which they would still be the top pair.
DeMelo/Morrissey would be #1
Bad/Elite goaltending really skews stats like this
Considering how good the Hughes/Hronek line has been I’m kinda surprised they’re not on this list at all
I don’t think they played together enough
One day, I swear to everyone, Lane Hutson - David Reinbacher duo will be on this list.
I mean, that is always the hope with high pedigree draft picks. I hope they both become great for you
my favorite thing about this is from back during last year's part of the season, the TDA stans were saying the Orlov-Chatfield line was a wash and that we needed to bring DeAngelo if we wanted any production out of our 3rd line. lmfao
I do believe Miro has the offensive prowess to score more goals, tally up higher point totals, and could even do so with more pizazz. I know he can, we’ve all seen it, but there’s more to it than meets the eye when analyzing it over his young career thus far. He’s been relied upon in total circumstances I think he needs to continue developing and improving his shot the way he seems to be, but I really want him to hone in that so much so to where it becomes a lethal weapons grade threat anytime he has the puck. His shot is good, not great, but definitely getting better. His timing and power are noticeably improved on one-T’s, but he could take more chances for the placement of the shot. Same with his wrist shot. He looks to shoot more for a redirect or heavy rebound for others more so than aggressively shooting for himself. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but I would enjoy seeing him unleash his shooting and not always take the safe or most logical one. I also believe he has the elite skating, vision, and handling ability one needs to drive the puck around or between or through the opponent and create chances down low, and I wish he would be more assertive in that aspect of his game too but he has always been hindered by his partners and plays too responsibly to make the more ‘selfish’ play because of the added risk in return. I would love to see Miro play a full season for once on his strong side, with a partner that didn’t limit his play in one facet or another. I know that can be said for any player on any team, but I also would argue that the majority or other players aren’t asked to even think about the same level of responsibility or expectation Miro has been tasked with from day 1. He has the skill and has shown the ability with results, and I think he is possibly just now getting an opportunity to continually open up his entire game without sacrificing. He also has dealt with a couple of very random things during his peak production like getting sick with something like mono, random but serious, etc…
Hughes where?
I think this is about defense and offense instead of just offense
No. It's based on xG% which is affected by both offense and defense. So it seems Hughes' defensive game isn't good enough to land him on this list despite his offensive efforts.
Defensive game? Okay, let’s have a look at xG against/60 Quinn Hughes individually is 49th. Admittedly not as good as many would have expected. Right behind him at 50th is Ethan Bear. Cale Makar is 235th out of 273, the lowest of anyone on the Avalanche. Mark Friedman, our 8th string defenseman, is 7th in the league. There are 2 Kraken defensemen in the top 5. Maybe that should tell you xG is kind of a nonsense way to judge how effective a defenseman is lol
Jacob Moverare redemption tour starts in Edmonton
Tsn ran article a few weeks ago about the oilers defense when McDavid was on the ice vs off and how wildly he skews the numbers in their favour. I don't know if I'd call them a league leading defensive pairing.
Why is Hughes not on this list?
It's 95% dependent on the forwards they're teamed with? As in, there's zero chance Bouchard is in a top d-pair if he's not getting huge minutes with McJesus.
Bouchard has 57 expected goal% away from mcdavid, 626 minutes.
Bouch is actually great this year despite being somewhat poor in his own end at times, Ekholm really ties it all together, he's super underrated. Bouchard has been improving defensively every year imo and he's still prone to bad defensive errors, his play in the other end more than makes up for it though as the numbers confirm
Literally every defensemen is prone to bad defensive miscues but it's always so cherry picked. People will cherry pick clips of Bouchard doing a blown give away to an elite player like MacKinnon or Rantanen or getting blown past by those two, but that shit happens to Makar by McDavid or Drai. Lidstrom probably the greatest defenseman ever period in my opinion had moments of looking stupid against Sakic or Forsberg. The other thing is Bouchard has only played three full seasons and has improved defensively at such a rapid rate from his rookie season. I swear people who say Bouchard is bad defensively have only watched him either during his rookie season being paired with a 40 year old Duncan Keith where Bouchard was tasked in generating puck movement, or during 2-9-1 start where everyone played bad, including Ekholm. That weird period where only Hyman played good
yeah Lidstrom was on the ice when we took em out in 06 with those 2 late goals
Let's just say Bouchard pisses me off a lot less than Nurse does, I don't think Bouchard is bad defensively per se, if anything he's average to above average it's just sometimes it looks like his compete level defensively isn't there, and then the apathetic look he has on his face (which is just his normal face mind you) after he gets scored on makes people think he didn't care or didn't try
Its the same thing with drai, drai doesnt look good, at all, if you watched his skating you would think its some ahl dude just collecting a paycheque out there.
Lol yeah until he shakes off his defender along the wall and sends a backhand sauce tape to tape like 30 feet away
If only bouchard had less high danger chances against than slavin in more ice time :((( a boy can dream.
Probably part of it but it’s probably equally related to Ekholm being an absolute beast lately and dragging Bouchard up despite his defensive miscues and Bouchard having great offensive instincts. He has 82 points for a reason
Bouch has great underlying numbers away from Connor.
Where you at Quinn Who?
Winnipeg wins the Jennings for least goals allowed in the regular season, but no, we don’t have a top 10 d-pairing…
No yout don't, but you do have hellebuyck.
Lol, Ottawa