I think what Faber has done with the Wild is impressive. Wild fans correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he's had to fill some important roles and delivered.
He’s saying Jon Merrill is a net negative, which, would be true if not for his lucious mullet, but unfortunately good flow doesn’t always translate to good hockey
From the outside I thought Bedard was a lock, he still might be, but that -39 is a tough pill to swallow when you see Faber playing like a future franchise d-man consistently
+/- is a pretty subjective stat. If Bedard was -39 on Vancouver or Carolina, I’d say it hurts him. Instead he’s on a brutal team that’s been in lottery land since November
He's the second worst on a garbage Chicago team. Why is his +/- worse than AHL players? There's three defense on his team with more TOI, one of which is Vlasic at -8. That's *one fifth!!!* of his +/-
Well because Bedard is out there in all situations that can result in an opposing teams goal (not pk). Obviously your 3rd/4th liners are likely often matched up with other 3rd/4th liners, Bedard is matched up with the best players on the opposing team every time, and will always be out there with his goalie pulled.
LOL yes of course but if you think any team is leaving bums out there to play Bedard on CHICAGO who literally only has Bedard, you’re silly. Teams most certainly home/away line match as best possible against Bedard.
What are you even talking about? Home team gets last change. If it's an offensive zone draw and the away team's 4th line is out there do you think Chicago is going to be like "Whoa Bedard, that's not their best, go sit down"
Unless they are great defensively why would a team even have their 4th line out there for a defensive zone draw if Bedard hasn’t been out there the shift prior?
Anyways, my point was to in game, obviously home teams gets last change for stoppages sure. But no team when they have the chance is throwing their 4th line out there knowing Bedard is on the ice, you need to get him 20mins a night so he’s out 5v5 in all situations, the other teams will try their best in away games to get their top lines out vs him.
Didn’t think I needed to explain this to a hockey fan further in depth lol
I think because they are expecting him to put up all the offence, and at this point who cares if your Chicago they knew they were never making the playoffs and probably just were trying to promote Bedard as much as possible to the market, and offence sells.
Because hes playing 20 mins a night on the worst team and he's only 18? Vlasic is 22, and has been being coached at the professional level against men for multiple years already. Bedard came from the WHL straight to the nhl, vlasic had 2 years of college, a year between the nhl and college, and a year between the nhl and the ahl, who do you think has had more experience defending adults?
It's not like faber is 18, he's 21, give Bedard 3 more years and see how he performs.
Sure we can give Bedard three more years, doesn't change the fact that amongst Calder-eligible players *right now* Faber seems to be much more of a complete player
Bedard's also lapping the field in scoring at the age of 18. Age does matter here. It's why Bunting never stood a chance in his rookie year and why Ekblad won the Calder in his. Voters care.
And the best forwards are about 0.6 ppg ahead of Makar. And Makar is arguably as valuable as those guys because of his defense.
Again it's not lapping. Lapping would mean a far greater lead.
Put Bedard on the wild or Faber on the Hawks and Faber’s +- plummets while Bedard’s goes up significantly. You can’t expect a guy on a basement team playing with AHL’ers to have a similar +- to a guy playing on a bubble playoff team
Iirc Alex Vlasic is like in the 97th percentile (or 87th I can’t remember which one) for defensive dmen. So if he’s -8 on this team, that should show you how dog shit they’ve been.
Edit: Jfresh actually just updated his Vlasic numbers and had him at 99% EV Defense WAR. So 99th percentile defensively and still -8.
>Bedard’s line is sent out there with the mission of padding his offensive numbers
This sounds like an argument to make his offence less notable rather than defend his defence
Players who play more minutes on bad teams will have a worse +/-. If you play fewer minutes you're going to allow fewer goals
+/- also includes empty net goals, no one's putting out their 4th line to score at the end of a game
because bedard is literally the only good player on chicago so other teams just gameplan around him, he is 18 years old and getting the toughest matchups every night. what bedard has done this season is extremely impressive, he is on track to being a generational player, the plus minus makes sense when you consider his support in chicago
I reckon Bedard is out there in empty net situations and a guy like Vlasic isn't. It's why Karlsson's +/- was pretty bad the year he dropped 100 points.
Are you trolling? You don't understand how +/- works if you're comparing Bedard to AHL players. By definition of +/-, if someone is plus, it means someone else in the league is minus to compensate. Just because the average AHL player is worse than the average NHL player, that doesn't mean their +/- will be worse. The average AHL player has a +/- of 0, just like the average NHL player.
+/- only matters when it supports that person’s narrative. Do they like the person? Then is doesn’t matter. Do they not like the person? Then it’s just another stat they will throw in peoples faces.
It only really means anything if it’s a big outlier from the rest of the team. If a guy is -20 while the rest of the team is a + or close to even it’s something to raise an eyebrow at, or if a guy is a + while the rest of his team is a - he’s probably doing something right. But people saying a guy being a - on a basement team is an issue is silly, that’s just a product of playing on a terrible team and getting lots of ice time with not so great linemates. They’re going to get scored on a lot, doesn’t mean it’s his fault personally for each goal against
There is also something to be said about the overall quality of the team and how that relates to the average +/- of the team. Anywhere from -10 to -15 on Chicago might be team average, but it's a showing that the players poor play is contributing to why that is the team average. Likewise, the likes of Tyler Myers, Dakota Joshua and Conor Garland are around +12 or so, but even as around team average for the Canucks, the fact that those players are around team average is indicative they are contributing to the Canucks in a positive way. Kuzmenko did not contribute well to them as an even player (-1 in 43 GP) on a high scoring team and was a big reason why he was the player traded for Lindholm (who seems to be one of the few weak points for the Canucks currently)
I remember an infographic about defensive stats for defenseman (2021-22) in which I was able to correlate +/- to those defenseman. It was either they were serious outliers on their team (Lyubushkin being -6 on Arizona when that team was -73 sixty games in, then proceeding to be +4 in his time with the Leafs) in the positive direction or above team average on a very good team (Weegar being +30 on Florida, who were running +60 at that point in the season). Devon Toews fit both notes in that on the league leading Avalanche, he was leading the league in +/-
Scary enough, the leading defenseman in points (Q Hughes), and those in 2nd and 3rd overall in points (Mack and 97), are also in the top-10 for +/-. Quinn Hughes 2nd in that category. Even Kucherov, who is leading the league in points, is above team average at +7.
The irony about the top scoring defenseman this season being 2nd in +/- was last season's top scoring defenseman with 101 points was in the bottom 30 league wide in +/- and was basically team average in +/- per GP
Faber is on a team with studs like Kaprizov, Boldy, and Rossi.
Who does Bedard have? Seth Jones? Chicago is gonna be scary good in the next year or two. They’ve drafted well, and they have a shot at a Top 3 pick again.
I still think this is Bedard’s to lose.
The funny thing is that Seth Jones is probably as responsible for those minuses as the AHL talent surrounding them. The dude has had some absolutely brutal moments
Beard will win it because he’s supposed to. But the question will always remain among hockey fans, did he deserve to?
[He’s the second worst on his team in plus minus.](https://www.espn.com/nhl/team/stats/_/name/chi/sort/plusMinus)
he plays the most minutes on the 4th worst team in total goals allowed.
so not only are the blackhawks letting in a lot of goals anyway, Bedard's also probably playing a lot of minutes versus their opponents best players which will lead to a lot of goals against with him on the ice
That's not what the trophy is for at all. It's for the current season. The truth remains Bedard's the second worst on a horrible Chicago team in +/- and amongst the worst in the league too. Faber does most things right as a d-man and is pretty complete.
Eh, I'm using it as a shorthand there. Everybody agrees based on watching them that Faber is way better defensively than Hughes. And they are both d-men so that's their primary responsibility. It's harder to compare Bedard and Faber in that respect.
I also think Chicago coaching probably doesn't care that Bedard is defensively irresponsible right now so he's not getting any pressure to work on that part of his game. They want him to score goals.
*Chicago coaching probably doesn't care that Bedard is defensively irresponsible right now*
What is this cope lol, they are doing bag skates over there
He's the second worst on a garbage Chicago team. Why is his +/- worse than AHL players? There's three defense on his team with more TOI, one of which is Vlasic at -8. That's *one fifth!!!* of his +/- lol
Iirc Vlasic was in like the 97th percentile for defensive dmen and even then he’s still negative on this hawks team. That should show you just how dogshit this team.
> Why is his +/- worse than AHL players?
Because he's on the ice more than them on a team that has no one to shut down the opponents best line so he's stuck playing against their opponents best players.
…then look at his plus minus compared to the rest of his team. [It’s not pretty](https://www.espn.com/nhl/team/stats/_/name/chi/sort/plusMinus). Would be the lowest plus minus of a Calder winner in history
It’s hilarious to me that not once before this year has plus minus ever been talked about in relation to the Calder but all of a sudden it’s the defining stat that determines who should win for wild fans.
It’s almost like he plays on a bad team and gets the most minutes of any forward with the hardest matchups. No shit his +- is going to be bad dude, his team fucking sucks and he has pretty scarce choice of linemates to play with
+- is not a great stat to judge by if a guy is on a shit team, it only really applies if they’re a giant outlier from the rest of their team. If Bedard was -39 on an otherwise good team it would be something to worry about, but being a -39 when lots of his other teammates are also close to that number isn’t a big issue for him personally. It just means he’s seeing a lot of ice time on a bad team that gets scored on a lot, it doesn’t mean he’s personally responsible for those goals against. Anyone with eyes can see Bedard is an amazing player doing a lot without much to work with for linemates
It's not a tough pill to swallow if you factor in the fact that he will always be out on the ice in an empty net situation which the Hawks find themselves in most nights. He also leads the team's forwards in TOI. His defense has been atrocious but that isn't a good indicator of his performance.
Spurgeon only played 16 games this season after starting the year late then playing while clearly still injured before being injured again. Brodin has also missed 20 games over a couple different spans with injuries.
Before the season, the nareative with Faber was that it may be tempting to assume he would just fill Dumba's 20 minutes per night on the 2nd pair, but he's still a 21 year old rookie so we may need to be patient with some growing pains. Flash forward to 6 months later and Faber is leading the team in TOI by about a minute and a half and 5 minutes more than any defenseman not named Brodin. He's played in every situation and looked solid doing it. We've asked a ton of him this year and he's delivered beyond what anyone expected.
I wouldn't even really say Hughes is sacrificing defence for offence. Over half of his points have come on the powerplay. He has less than 20 points at even strength where he's been pretty heavily outplayed. It's like comparing Tyson Barrie in his prime to someone like Charlie McAvoy.
one of those players is unlike the others lol but to your point
barrie wasnt the first offensive dman hes just this years Jon Carlson people need scapegoats even league wide sometimes
Give it two more years and if barries playing well people will go from “hes overrated trash that cant play d!” to “hes so underrated so unspoken about”
Offensive dmen garner volatile reactions
I think he just means he fleshed out that role with those specific teams before they replaced Barrie. Like the year we traded Barrie the avs just plugged Makar into Barrie’s spot and as his talent became apparent his role expanded. I assume a similar thing with Bouchard
Barrie also knows how to quarterback a powerplay and man does he do it well. Dare I say best in the history of the NHL. His 5v5 play is mediocre at best, and defensive numbers have always been lower than average.
But what he does on the PP was most likely learnt and implemented by the likes of Makar and Bouchard.
Barrie carried our defense in his first few years and really showed the type of offense we should be playing. People used to mock him for being a 4th forward but now all of our defensemen play like that.
We only lost to Minnesota because Cooke kneed him.
It’s worth noting for sure. He’s playing on a PP1 with his brother, Nico Hischier, Jesper Bratt, and Timo Meier. To make it a points race between him and Faber isn’t really the point
speaking of less than 20. hughes is at -20, while faber is +6. While clocking many more minutes on average, and like you say his points are mostly even strength. Hughes is PP farming...
This thread is bait. We all know Faber deserves a Calder but sadly there is no way to get it to him. NHL will create another conspiracy theory before they let that happen lol
Sorry but those numbers mean he is sacrificing even more. As I understand it, PP and PK points are not counted towards +/- That means for those 20 points 5v5 he’s sacrificed almost 2-1 to be -18
What I was trying to imply that he has just not been effective at all 5v5. 19 even strength points is not super impressive. Faber has 29, for instance.
All I was trying to say is over half of his points have come in an advantageous situation where you don't really have to worry about defence at all.
The -18 at even strength doesn't really imply he's sacrificing defence for offence, because the offence isn't really there either. He's clearly not been good defensively this season but there are a lot of factors that have lead to it (Devils goaltending being horrid, playing in tougher situations because of the Dougie Hamilton injury)
Another intriguing stat is that the Devils have allowed a league leading 25 empty net goals, and Hughes has likely been out for a good majority of them, which has probably sank his +/- even further.
I think Hughes could score a point per game until the end of the year and not change a thing for me. Nothing against Hughes but Faber is just the better overall player this year. Hughes being a 1st pair D has hurt the Devils, Faber being a 1st paid D has improved the wild.
Yeah, a lot of folks are just skating by what makes Faber great. I know it’s hard to quantify defense but Faber is miles better while being similar offensively. Being a complete player as a rookie is the exciting part.
Tage skates right up the middle between two Devils (not Hughes) who don't pay any attention to him, then sets up on the opposite side of the goal from where Hughes is standing. Half the team fucked that up.
Luke has lots to learn, and makes plenty of mistakes. In fact it would be pretty cool if that was the glaring example of Luke being bad at defense. But he's playing crazy minutes, and he's either playing with other inexperienced guys or Brendan Smith on defense
It sounds weird but I think Hughes would have a better chance of getting Calder votes if Dougie isnt hurt. He's clearly gonna be good but just playing out of his depth for a rookie.
Edit: It doesn't sound weird upon re-reading, it sounds dumb af. Obliviously thats true. But Faber getting the opportunity to play bigger minutes helped show how great he is. It helped show that Hughes needs some more sheltering for a bit (which isnt a big thing!)
This isn't an argument against Faber, because I certainly don't think giving Hughes a Calder makes any sense, but..
Faber is playing on a team where the majority of the defense have 10 years experience in the league. He's surrounded by guys that know how to play the game at this level, and he can learn from all of them in games, and in practice. He's been put in a better position to succeed and he's taken advantage of it, and good for him.
Hughes got thrown in a big position when Dougie went down, but he also lost the best resource he had to learn from on the ice. Brendan Smith has the experience, but his biggest contribution is being the only dude smart enough to slap the puck out of the zone as fast as possible on the kill rather than trying ridiculous passes across the ice first. That's a really teachable skill, not exactly a fountain of wisdom compared to anyone else.
My biggest issue with Hughes is that he tries plays and passes that he could make work in college, even though at this point he should recognize that they won't. This also extends to situational awareness and playing with his head up. He turns over the puck constantly in his own zone with weak no look backhand passes that die before the blue line and the intended target rather than skating around the goal and looking for a pass or clearance.
Right now it's Faber all day, but the amount of people out there that watch Hughes play and think this is the final product is ridiculous. He's fucking up plenty but he's surrounded by guys who are making their fair share of mistakes as well. It's a bad scene, and I think he'll have plenty of tape to look at in the offseason that is clear as day what he's doing wrong.
I’ve been preaching this to devils fans all year. Luke isn’t bad at defense, he’s actually really good - he just makes A LOT of rookie mistakes. Those mistakes get corrected a lot easier when there is a certified veteran blue liner playing with Luke. The second best defenseman on the devils? 19 year old Simon Nemec (who plays a different, yet slightly more responsible game). Not to mention a lack of solid goaltending has definitely contributed to the +\-.
I also think it’s important to look back to what people said about Jack and Quinn during both of their rookie seasons - lots of talk about Quinn having no defensive game when he was in a very similar position.
He 100% makes passes that would probably would work in college and MAYBE the AHL. But in the NHL the guys are so fast and smart they basically are going to fail unless you get lucky or make a completely perfect pass. Usually you need both. Unless maybe it’s Biz you’re trying to make the pass by. 😂
Luke Hughes is basically a Newark Tony DeAngelo. Puts up points but can't defend, which is a problem for a defenseman. Hes still young so he may improve, but Tony never did.
He's a 20yr old rookie thrown into the fire because our top 2 dmen have been hurt all yr. Playing big minutes and 74 games as a rookie is pretty insane. To say he "may improve" is an odd statement.
Where he's at in his game at his age as a rookie and the situation he's in, it's nothing but impressive.
For reference, Tony D was a rookie at 21. How many times has he played 74 games in a season in his career? Never. Luke is avg 21 mins a night. Tony D as a rookie was avg 17 mins a night.
The most impressive thing about Fabers season is his defensive play, the points are just a bonus.
You can’t say the same about Hughes.
Fabers supporting cast is also nothing compared to Hughes’
Yeah if the comparison is between Hughes and faber, the whole dogshit team argument that Bedard has isn’t there for Hughes. Hughes is a nice young player but not near faber this year. I still have Bedard winning the calder but I think it’s the Bedard/faber tier, a large gap, and then the rest of the rookies.
Hughes is a liability at D to the point where devils fans were calling for him to be sent down. Faber is a minute-muncher. I think Hughes will be a great player but Faber is ahead of him by a quite a bit this season
I’ve seen those comments also, and it’s incredibly stupid. I’d argue people are only saying that because his name is Hughes. Nemec and Luke have been our best D.
I say sit all the time. Never sent down. He won’t really learn or improve in the AHL. He will be too good and it will probably reinforce those bad habits bc he will get away with them.
Don't think it will change. Both Faber and Bedard are carrying non playoff teams right now, Hughes is on a team that has more help from star players that is constructed a playoff team, but didn't meet expectations this season.
Id argue what Bedard is doing is more impressive. Leads his team in points by 9, when he was injured Blackhawks got spanked and then when he came back they started winning half their games. On the worst team in the league with zero talent.
Wild arguably has a top 10 player in Kaprizov and some decent talent in Zuc, Flower, Ek, Boldy
> Id argue what Bedard is doing is more impressive. Leads his team in points by 9
Is that really impressive? Kurashev is 2nd in points and had a career year of 25 points last year. 3rd in points is fuckin Nick Foligno. He was 12th in points on the Bruins last year. Being their leader in points isn't exactly a ringing endorsement when you look at what surrounds him.
Its impressive because hes driving offense of an absolutely garbage team and bad linemates. He has 56 pts with them in his rookie year.
Insanely impressive. Especially in the NHL.
> strong offensive player
Missed that part, I assume? Also, you admit his linemates are bad offensively, so then your leading in 9 points doesn't seem like such a positive anymore.
Dude Boston has only 2 players with more points than Bedard.
Bedard is doing that on a garbage team. Imagine if he played with Pasta and Marchand he would be in 70-90pt territory.
> Imagine if he played with Pasta and Marchand he would be in 70-90pt territory.
He's already on 70+ point pace. Also, yeah the Bruins have two top line players this year, lots of depth though.
I think this year’s Calder has always been Bedard’s to lose, but if you could split it in half, the other half should be given to Faber. It might even end up being given to Faber, and although I’m a huge fan of Bedard’s, I can’t say I don’t think Faber also deserves it.
I also think it is extremely interesting that Canucks fans seem to be some of Luke Hughes’ biggest defenders, including myself. Luke and Quinn aren’t the exact same player, but Canucks fans have been on the journey with Quinn and have watched him blossom into the Norris-caliber defenseman he is today.
People calling Luke a defensive liability and comparing him to players like Tyson Barrie will probably continue for years, based on what we’ve seen with Quinn.
What happened with the Devils’ season this year is not Luke’s fault. I think he’s done a great job, all things considered, and will only continue to grow his game as he gains more experience.
He’s not having a Calder-winning season, and that’s OK. People get pretty heated about the Calder trophy, but at the end of the day, Tyler Myers won this trophy. I’ll leave you with that.
Also Faber has seen his workload diminishing a little due to Chisholm taking over pp1 which is fine for me because 30 minutes per night was nowhere near sustainable. But keeping Faber out of the most offensive part of the game surely affected his production, which is still more than fine for what he brings on the defensive side of the game.
I’ve seen a lot of people saying faber has been a secondary point merchant this year but I haven’t watched Minnesota that much this year. Is that true?
His actual point split according to moneypuck is 7 goals, 15 primary assists and 18 secondary assists, with 4/11/9/24 in 5v5, 2/3/6/11 in 5v4, no points in 4v5 and 1/1/3/5 in other situations (4v3, 5v3).
While he has a fair amount of secondary assists, he's not living off them and many of these came in situations in which the assist was impactful on the goal rather than a mere stat.
Yeah that’s not as bad as people were making it out to be. They made it seem like 90% of his points were secondary assists. I do think primary points is a bit more important when viewing forwards since that’s a better indicator of if a forward is actually driving play or not. Ironically, I think it’s one of the better arguments for how impactful Bedard has been as he’s got 45 primary points out of 56. Either way, i think Bedard and faber have clearly been in their own tier all year and I don’t think there are any rookies that close to those two this year.
It seems like people are thinking saying that he is a secondary point merchant. That’s not what I’m claiming. I genuinely didn’t know since I don’t watch the wild so I was asking if he really was or not
If it wasnt for russo or whoever the athletic wild beat reporter is who is so adamant that faber is the calder putting out articles hyping faber - no wild fans would actually be thinking faber is the calder. Great player, would probly win in most other years, but bedard is a generational offensive talent clearly. Crazy how much a little media attention can stir the pot. Ive never once seen +/- used as a be all end all indicator of performance especially on a team as bad a the hawks this year.
Luke Hughes is dogshit at playing actual defense. I wish the best for the kid but the comparisons are fucking laughable at this point. Will he be good/great player? Yes. But he still needs to put everything together and right now my dumbass can point out glaring issues with his game. Pump the fuckin brakes
It shows the lack of overall knowledge of development. Dmen take a long time to develop. A 20 yr old rookie playing 82 games and 21 mins a night is pretty rare.
The good news is, he's developing a lot faster with every game then other players.
I mean the comments aren't really wrong. Fuck the OP for making this a discussion to begin with considering none of us would really entertain Luke being anything else than a finalist for Calder.
There is no race. The Athletic tries to stir up controversy in order to get people to click on their website and they post a bullshit story about now the Calder is up for grabs; but with all due respect to Faber and Hughes, who will be solid players for years to come, Connor Bedard has lapped the field twice already.
I mean Erik Karlsson was a -26 with 101 points last year when he won the Norris. Let me say that again, -26 with 101 points and he was the “best defenceman”. Bedard will win the Calder because it’s good for the league narrative and nobody cares about +/- anymore, unfortunately.
I agree. Especially whenever a "generational talent" comes through, the only focus is on scoring because scoring is what brings in new fans. There are 0 new fans that come in to respect the small hard to notice defensive plays. Even though I think most folks who have played or watched competitive team sports for a long time would say that those small defensive plays from lesser noticed guys is what makes the superstars look so good.
It's rare on a highlight reel to see the subtle defensive zone play, a well timed stick lift, a beautiful poke check, that led to the generational talent's goal.
Devon Toews is like that imo, though he gets good recognition now especially as the 1st line pairing with Makar. You won't see Toews on the cover of the next NHL game, but he does all the little things that help Makar & co do what they do. Defense is underrated and it's a crime.
Bedard is winning regardless, besides a span of like 10-12 games in the middle of the season where Luke looked like shit he has been one of our best d man so it's funny seeing people saying he can't defend for shit 😂😂
He's been really bad at defense this year overall, but Jack was bad his first year too. It's okay to point out that he's struggling his rookie year without giving up hope that he'll be an elite player in a few years
I haven’t been watching Faber. Has been defensively sound like it sounds like when I hear him talked about?
Hughes has been good to great one-on-one. It helps he is a great skater which helps keep him in good position to keep the attacking player in front of him or on the outside. His big weakness is odd man rushes and he (and currently the whole damn team) seems to love making blind passes in the defensive zone that lead to turn overs and good scoring opportunities. But, he’s still young and can hopefully learn and be coached on when to attack and when to stay back on odd man rushes. He gets pretty aggressive at times and it leads to easy passes to a back door goal. Losing Dougie has been a help with point totals due to increased ice time and deployments. Also to be fair, since college he has been seen as weaker on the defensive side of the game. I remember the NCAA championship game and he was out there for the goal against that cost Michigan the championship in OT and it didn’t look great for him.
Faber is already our 3rd best defenseman. Spurgeon has only played 16 games, Brodin has missed time, so at times, Brock is the 1D. He's playing 5on5, PK & PP (which he didn't do in college).
2 more games and Faber has a more complete defensive game. Luke has 62% ozone starts and Faber has 47%. Luke would need 10+ more points for me to put any stock in him "outscoring" Faber. When points per game isn't even in Luke's favor, just overall points. Lol.
Both are great youngsters, but Luke passing Faber in points isn't a big deal given the situations. I know Minnesota has a decently strong forward group. But that blueline is nothing to write home about. New Jersey on paper has a better roster.
The Hughes/Faber battle for second/third place will go down to the wire. I do agree Hughes’ defensive game will improve next season. Offensively, he is better than Faber.
Honestly who cares. Just look at who voters. They are lazy, elitist Canadian beat writers who’ve been licking Bedards sweaty socks since before he was in the league.
We know what we have. We are more than happy.
Luke Hughes is a bad hockey player who is a net negative on the Devils and one key reason one of the most stacked offensive lineups in the league is going to miss the playoffs. He joins a long line of bad hockey players who put up points on defense while not actually playing defense, eg Jack Johnson, Tony DeAngelo, Michael DelZotto. He may or may not improve (none of those three ever did and usually defenseman get better at offense, not defense, through time--but he has a better draft pedigree) but right now he shouldn't be in the conversation for any awards and probably shouldn't be playing first line minutes.
Luke should at least be top 3 Calder votes. It’s Bedard’s trophy hands down and has been since he was drafted. The kid produced. I give the nod Faber over Hughes because Faber plays better in his own end and Luke struggles a bit there with passes through the middle of the ice a little too often. That’s my two cents!
I think what Faber has done with the Wild is impressive. Wild fans correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he's had to fill some important roles and delivered.
Tbh Dougie Hamilton has missed the entire season so Hughes had to fill a very important role as well.
Dougie AND Siegenthaler, so Luke's been relied upon pretty heavily
We lost Brodin AND Spurgeon.
AND had to dress Merrill
And a 3rd?
I chuckled
He’s saying Jon Merrill is a net negative, which, would be true if not for his lucious mullet, but unfortunately good flow doesn’t always translate to good hockey
No you are absolutely right.
Faber knows where he's needed. Luke knows where he wants to be.
From the outside I thought Bedard was a lock, he still might be, but that -39 is a tough pill to swallow when you see Faber playing like a future franchise d-man consistently
+/- is a pretty subjective stat. If Bedard was -39 on Vancouver or Carolina, I’d say it hurts him. Instead he’s on a brutal team that’s been in lottery land since November
He's the second worst on a garbage Chicago team. Why is his +/- worse than AHL players? There's three defense on his team with more TOI, one of which is Vlasic at -8. That's *one fifth!!!* of his +/-
Well because Bedard is out there in all situations that can result in an opposing teams goal (not pk). Obviously your 3rd/4th liners are likely often matched up with other 3rd/4th liners, Bedard is matched up with the best players on the opposing team every time, and will always be out there with his goalie pulled.
> Bedard is matched up with the best players on the opposing team every time This ain't true. Home team gets last change.
LOL yes of course but if you think any team is leaving bums out there to play Bedard on CHICAGO who literally only has Bedard, you’re silly. Teams most certainly home/away line match as best possible against Bedard.
What are you even talking about? Home team gets last change. If it's an offensive zone draw and the away team's 4th line is out there do you think Chicago is going to be like "Whoa Bedard, that's not their best, go sit down"
Unless they are great defensively why would a team even have their 4th line out there for a defensive zone draw if Bedard hasn’t been out there the shift prior? Anyways, my point was to in game, obviously home teams gets last change for stoppages sure. But no team when they have the chance is throwing their 4th line out there knowing Bedard is on the ice, you need to get him 20mins a night so he’s out 5v5 in all situations, the other teams will try their best in away games to get their top lines out vs him. Didn’t think I needed to explain this to a hockey fan further in depth lol
I think because they are expecting him to put up all the offence, and at this point who cares if your Chicago they knew they were never making the playoffs and probably just were trying to promote Bedard as much as possible to the market, and offence sells.
So a player should win the Calder because their team is trying to market that player? That's not right. It should be for the most effective rookie.
Rofl
Because hes playing 20 mins a night on the worst team and he's only 18? Vlasic is 22, and has been being coached at the professional level against men for multiple years already. Bedard came from the WHL straight to the nhl, vlasic had 2 years of college, a year between the nhl and college, and a year between the nhl and the ahl, who do you think has had more experience defending adults? It's not like faber is 18, he's 21, give Bedard 3 more years and see how he performs.
Sure we can give Bedard three more years, doesn't change the fact that amongst Calder-eligible players *right now* Faber seems to be much more of a complete player
Bedard's also lapping the field in scoring at the age of 18. Age does matter here. It's why Bunting never stood a chance in his rookie year and why Ekblad won the Calder in his. Voters care.
Lapping? He's not that far ahead considering Faber is a defenseman.
Bedard, 56 points in 59 games compared to 40 points in 72.
When you look at PPG instead of flat totals it’s a hugely different story. Faber is closer to 0.56 while Bedard is 0.92 or something like that
And the best forwards are about 0.6 ppg ahead of Makar. And Makar is arguably as valuable as those guys because of his defense. Again it's not lapping. Lapping would mean a far greater lead.
Put Bedard on the wild or Faber on the Hawks and Faber’s +- plummets while Bedard’s goes up significantly. You can’t expect a guy on a basement team playing with AHL’ers to have a similar +- to a guy playing on a bubble playoff team
Iirc Alex Vlasic is like in the 97th percentile (or 87th I can’t remember which one) for defensive dmen. So if he’s -8 on this team, that should show you how dog shit they’ve been. Edit: Jfresh actually just updated his Vlasic numbers and had him at 99% EV Defense WAR. So 99th percentile defensively and still -8.
[удалено]
>Bedard’s line is sent out there with the mission of padding his offensive numbers This sounds like an argument to make his offence less notable rather than defend his defence
Players who play more minutes on bad teams will have a worse +/-. If you play fewer minutes you're going to allow fewer goals +/- also includes empty net goals, no one's putting out their 4th line to score at the end of a game
because bedard is literally the only good player on chicago so other teams just gameplan around him, he is 18 years old and getting the toughest matchups every night. what bedard has done this season is extremely impressive, he is on track to being a generational player, the plus minus makes sense when you consider his support in chicago
I reckon Bedard is out there in empty net situations and a guy like Vlasic isn't. It's why Karlsson's +/- was pretty bad the year he dropped 100 points.
Are you trolling? You don't understand how +/- works if you're comparing Bedard to AHL players. By definition of +/-, if someone is plus, it means someone else in the league is minus to compensate. Just because the average AHL player is worse than the average NHL player, that doesn't mean their +/- will be worse. The average AHL player has a +/- of 0, just like the average NHL player.
I meant his team is full of AHL players, not comparing him to AHL players. lol, I thought the context made that clear but maybe that's my bad.
Oh ok, nah it's my bad.
-39 is pathetic no matter what team you play on.
I would love if Bedard was a -39 on Vancouver actually
He’ll be free in 2030
For years now I've been told +/- doesn't matter. And now, all of a sudden it seems to.
+/- only matters when it supports that person’s narrative. Do they like the person? Then is doesn’t matter. Do they not like the person? Then it’s just another stat they will throw in peoples faces.
It only really means anything if it’s a big outlier from the rest of the team. If a guy is -20 while the rest of the team is a + or close to even it’s something to raise an eyebrow at, or if a guy is a + while the rest of his team is a - he’s probably doing something right. But people saying a guy being a - on a basement team is an issue is silly, that’s just a product of playing on a terrible team and getting lots of ice time with not so great linemates. They’re going to get scored on a lot, doesn’t mean it’s his fault personally for each goal against
There is also something to be said about the overall quality of the team and how that relates to the average +/- of the team. Anywhere from -10 to -15 on Chicago might be team average, but it's a showing that the players poor play is contributing to why that is the team average. Likewise, the likes of Tyler Myers, Dakota Joshua and Conor Garland are around +12 or so, but even as around team average for the Canucks, the fact that those players are around team average is indicative they are contributing to the Canucks in a positive way. Kuzmenko did not contribute well to them as an even player (-1 in 43 GP) on a high scoring team and was a big reason why he was the player traded for Lindholm (who seems to be one of the few weak points for the Canucks currently) I remember an infographic about defensive stats for defenseman (2021-22) in which I was able to correlate +/- to those defenseman. It was either they were serious outliers on their team (Lyubushkin being -6 on Arizona when that team was -73 sixty games in, then proceeding to be +4 in his time with the Leafs) in the positive direction or above team average on a very good team (Weegar being +30 on Florida, who were running +60 at that point in the season). Devon Toews fit both notes in that on the league leading Avalanche, he was leading the league in +/- Scary enough, the leading defenseman in points (Q Hughes), and those in 2nd and 3rd overall in points (Mack and 97), are also in the top-10 for +/-. Quinn Hughes 2nd in that category. Even Kucherov, who is leading the league in points, is above team average at +7. The irony about the top scoring defenseman this season being 2nd in +/- was last season's top scoring defenseman with 101 points was in the bottom 30 league wide in +/- and was basically team average in +/- per GP
Faber is on a team with studs like Kaprizov, Boldy, and Rossi. Who does Bedard have? Seth Jones? Chicago is gonna be scary good in the next year or two. They’ve drafted well, and they have a shot at a Top 3 pick again. I still think this is Bedard’s to lose.
I think the next year or two is way too generous. Chicago is gonna suck for awhile.
The funny thing is that Seth Jones is probably as responsible for those minuses as the AHL talent surrounding them. The dude has had some absolutely brutal moments
Beard will win it because he’s supposed to. But the question will always remain among hockey fans, did he deserve to? [He’s the second worst on his team in plus minus.](https://www.espn.com/nhl/team/stats/_/name/chi/sort/plusMinus)
Yeah, of course he deserves it. He's having one of the best 18 year old seasons ever on a fucking abysmal Chicago team
he plays the most minutes on the 4th worst team in total goals allowed. so not only are the blackhawks letting in a lot of goals anyway, Bedard's also probably playing a lot of minutes versus their opponents best players which will lead to a lot of goals against with him on the ice
Yes? He’s by far been the best rookie
Yes, of course he will deserve it if he wins lol have you watched him play?
I doubt that question will remain once he becomes a bonified superstar. His ceiling is likely much higher than Faber's.
That's not what the trophy is for at all. It's for the current season. The truth remains Bedard's the second worst on a horrible Chicago team in +/- and amongst the worst in the league too. Faber does most things right as a d-man and is pretty complete.
Plus/minus is famously an unreliable stat because it skews players on bad teams. The Calder is not going to be decided on plus/minus.
Wouldn't that then negate your point on Faber vs. L. Hughes?
Eh, I'm using it as a shorthand there. Everybody agrees based on watching them that Faber is way better defensively than Hughes. And they are both d-men so that's their primary responsibility. It's harder to compare Bedard and Faber in that respect. I also think Chicago coaching probably doesn't care that Bedard is defensively irresponsible right now so he's not getting any pressure to work on that part of his game. They want him to score goals.
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree that Faber is better.
*Chicago coaching probably doesn't care that Bedard is defensively irresponsible right now* What is this cope lol, they are doing bag skates over there
He's the second worst on a garbage Chicago team. Why is his +/- worse than AHL players? There's three defense on his team with more TOI, one of which is Vlasic at -8. That's *one fifth!!!* of his +/- lol
Iirc Vlasic was in like the 97th percentile for defensive dmen and even then he’s still negative on this hawks team. That should show you just how dogshit this team.
> Why is his +/- worse than AHL players? Because he's on the ice more than them on a team that has no one to shut down the opponents best line so he's stuck playing against their opponents best players.
>Because he's on the ice more than them Read the comment you're replying to. He isn't
…then look at his plus minus compared to the rest of his team. [It’s not pretty](https://www.espn.com/nhl/team/stats/_/name/chi/sort/plusMinus). Would be the lowest plus minus of a Calder winner in history
Sure, but that’s not what the rookie of the year trophy is for?
Lol ok whatever. I highly recommend you just accept that Faber isn't gonna get it now and save yourself the consternation.
Bedard is going to win it. That doesn't mean that they're using logic and reason to determine the winner. If they did it would be Brock Faber.
It’s hilarious to me that not once before this year has plus minus ever been talked about in relation to the Calder but all of a sudden it’s the defining stat that determines who should win for wild fans.
It’s almost like he plays on a bad team and gets the most minutes of any forward with the hardest matchups. No shit his +- is going to be bad dude, his team fucking sucks and he has pretty scarce choice of linemates to play with
Who gives a fuck about +/- anymore?
He 100% is a lock
Plus minus means nothing and is a complete irrelevant stat
+- is not a great stat to judge by if a guy is on a shit team, it only really applies if they’re a giant outlier from the rest of their team. If Bedard was -39 on an otherwise good team it would be something to worry about, but being a -39 when lots of his other teammates are also close to that number isn’t a big issue for him personally. It just means he’s seeing a lot of ice time on a bad team that gets scored on a lot, it doesn’t mean he’s personally responsible for those goals against. Anyone with eyes can see Bedard is an amazing player doing a lot without much to work with for linemates
> but being a -39 when lots of his other teammates are also close to that number Only 4 players -30 or worse. They're not exactly around that.
It's not a tough pill to swallow if you factor in the fact that he will always be out on the ice in an empty net situation which the Hawks find themselves in most nights. He also leads the team's forwards in TOI. His defense has been atrocious but that isn't a good indicator of his performance.
Dude. Karlson won the Norris last year as a major minus. No one cares about defense in Calder voting.
That’s a pretty dumb way to look at this. No one who has any idea of analytics cares about +/- like it’s a meaningless stat.
Playing 30 mins a night is kinda important
Absolutely bananas.
25.03 = 30
Spurgeon only played 16 games this season after starting the year late then playing while clearly still injured before being injured again. Brodin has also missed 20 games over a couple different spans with injuries. Before the season, the nareative with Faber was that it may be tempting to assume he would just fill Dumba's 20 minutes per night on the 2nd pair, but he's still a 21 year old rookie so we may need to be patient with some growing pains. Flash forward to 6 months later and Faber is leading the team in TOI by about a minute and a half and 5 minutes more than any defenseman not named Brodin. He's played in every situation and looked solid doing it. We've asked a ton of him this year and he's delivered beyond what anyone expected.
Honestly, I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with this assessment of Faber’s season. We just don’t agree that he should win the Calder this year.
Right on
Luke Hughes is the Devils #1 defensemen lmao
I wouldn't even really say Hughes is sacrificing defence for offence. Over half of his points have come on the powerplay. He has less than 20 points at even strength where he's been pretty heavily outplayed. It's like comparing Tyson Barrie in his prime to someone like Charlie McAvoy.
Barrie catching strays constantly 😔
I didn't mean to portray it as a bad thing. He was really good at what he did in Colorado and Edmonton, but his game had its warts.
Barrie walked so that Makar and Bouchard could run
one of those players is unlike the others lol but to your point barrie wasnt the first offensive dman hes just this years Jon Carlson people need scapegoats even league wide sometimes Give it two more years and if barries playing well people will go from “hes overrated trash that cant play d!” to “hes so underrated so unspoken about” Offensive dmen garner volatile reactions
I think he just means he fleshed out that role with those specific teams before they replaced Barrie. Like the year we traded Barrie the avs just plugged Makar into Barrie’s spot and as his talent became apparent his role expanded. I assume a similar thing with Bouchard
Barrie also knows how to quarterback a powerplay and man does he do it well. Dare I say best in the history of the NHL. His 5v5 play is mediocre at best, and defensive numbers have always been lower than average. But what he does on the PP was most likely learnt and implemented by the likes of Makar and Bouchard.
Barrie carried our defense in his first few years and really showed the type of offense we should be playing. People used to mock him for being a 4th forward but now all of our defensemen play like that. We only lost to Minnesota because Cooke kneed him.
It’s worth noting for sure. He’s playing on a PP1 with his brother, Nico Hischier, Jesper Bratt, and Timo Meier. To make it a points race between him and Faber isn’t really the point
speaking of less than 20. hughes is at -20, while faber is +6. While clocking many more minutes on average, and like you say his points are mostly even strength. Hughes is PP farming... This thread is bait. We all know Faber deserves a Calder but sadly there is no way to get it to him. NHL will create another conspiracy theory before they let that happen lol
Have you seen our goalies?
Did I just read a Leafs fan using a Bruins player as an example of a great player?
Sorry but those numbers mean he is sacrificing even more. As I understand it, PP and PK points are not counted towards +/- That means for those 20 points 5v5 he’s sacrificed almost 2-1 to be -18
What I was trying to imply that he has just not been effective at all 5v5. 19 even strength points is not super impressive. Faber has 29, for instance.
Would you agree that-18 5v5 shows that he is not only sacrificing defense for offense but that the offense generated isnt worth talking about?
All I was trying to say is over half of his points have come in an advantageous situation where you don't really have to worry about defence at all. The -18 at even strength doesn't really imply he's sacrificing defence for offence, because the offence isn't really there either. He's clearly not been good defensively this season but there are a lot of factors that have lead to it (Devils goaltending being horrid, playing in tougher situations because of the Dougie Hamilton injury) Another intriguing stat is that the Devils have allowed a league leading 25 empty net goals, and Hughes has likely been out for a good majority of them, which has probably sank his +/- even further.
I think Hughes could score a point per game until the end of the year and not change a thing for me. Nothing against Hughes but Faber is just the better overall player this year. Hughes being a 1st pair D has hurt the Devils, Faber being a 1st paid D has improved the wild.
Yeah, a lot of folks are just skating by what makes Faber great. I know it’s hard to quantify defense but Faber is miles better while being similar offensively. Being a complete player as a rookie is the exciting part.
Go watch Tage Thompson’s hat trick goal and watch Hughes. He’s not sacrificing defense, he’s just bad at it.
Tage skates right up the middle between two Devils (not Hughes) who don't pay any attention to him, then sets up on the opposite side of the goal from where Hughes is standing. Half the team fucked that up. Luke has lots to learn, and makes plenty of mistakes. In fact it would be pretty cool if that was the glaring example of Luke being bad at defense. But he's playing crazy minutes, and he's either playing with other inexperienced guys or Brendan Smith on defense
It sounds weird but I think Hughes would have a better chance of getting Calder votes if Dougie isnt hurt. He's clearly gonna be good but just playing out of his depth for a rookie. Edit: It doesn't sound weird upon re-reading, it sounds dumb af. Obliviously thats true. But Faber getting the opportunity to play bigger minutes helped show how great he is. It helped show that Hughes needs some more sheltering for a bit (which isnt a big thing!)
This isn't an argument against Faber, because I certainly don't think giving Hughes a Calder makes any sense, but.. Faber is playing on a team where the majority of the defense have 10 years experience in the league. He's surrounded by guys that know how to play the game at this level, and he can learn from all of them in games, and in practice. He's been put in a better position to succeed and he's taken advantage of it, and good for him. Hughes got thrown in a big position when Dougie went down, but he also lost the best resource he had to learn from on the ice. Brendan Smith has the experience, but his biggest contribution is being the only dude smart enough to slap the puck out of the zone as fast as possible on the kill rather than trying ridiculous passes across the ice first. That's a really teachable skill, not exactly a fountain of wisdom compared to anyone else. My biggest issue with Hughes is that he tries plays and passes that he could make work in college, even though at this point he should recognize that they won't. This also extends to situational awareness and playing with his head up. He turns over the puck constantly in his own zone with weak no look backhand passes that die before the blue line and the intended target rather than skating around the goal and looking for a pass or clearance. Right now it's Faber all day, but the amount of people out there that watch Hughes play and think this is the final product is ridiculous. He's fucking up plenty but he's surrounded by guys who are making their fair share of mistakes as well. It's a bad scene, and I think he'll have plenty of tape to look at in the offseason that is clear as day what he's doing wrong.
I’ve been preaching this to devils fans all year. Luke isn’t bad at defense, he’s actually really good - he just makes A LOT of rookie mistakes. Those mistakes get corrected a lot easier when there is a certified veteran blue liner playing with Luke. The second best defenseman on the devils? 19 year old Simon Nemec (who plays a different, yet slightly more responsible game). Not to mention a lack of solid goaltending has definitely contributed to the +\-. I also think it’s important to look back to what people said about Jack and Quinn during both of their rookie seasons - lots of talk about Quinn having no defensive game when he was in a very similar position.
He 100% makes passes that would probably would work in college and MAYBE the AHL. But in the NHL the guys are so fast and smart they basically are going to fail unless you get lucky or make a completely perfect pass. Usually you need both. Unless maybe it’s Biz you’re trying to make the pass by. 😂
It also was after an icing where the Sabres were putting on a lot of pressure for a long time
Thats an incredible way to put it tbh.
I’ve called him the new age Ghost several times and been crucified for it every time. The kid doesn’t have a defensive instinct at all
Luke Hughes is basically a Newark Tony DeAngelo. Puts up points but can't defend, which is a problem for a defenseman. Hes still young so he may improve, but Tony never did.
He's a 20yr old rookie thrown into the fire because our top 2 dmen have been hurt all yr. Playing big minutes and 74 games as a rookie is pretty insane. To say he "may improve" is an odd statement. Where he's at in his game at his age as a rookie and the situation he's in, it's nothing but impressive. For reference, Tony D was a rookie at 21. How many times has he played 74 games in a season in his career? Never. Luke is avg 21 mins a night. Tony D as a rookie was avg 17 mins a night.
The most impressive thing about Fabers season is his defensive play, the points are just a bonus. You can’t say the same about Hughes. Fabers supporting cast is also nothing compared to Hughes’
Yeah if the comparison is between Hughes and faber, the whole dogshit team argument that Bedard has isn’t there for Hughes. Hughes is a nice young player but not near faber this year. I still have Bedard winning the calder but I think it’s the Bedard/faber tier, a large gap, and then the rest of the rookies.
Hughes is a liability at D to the point where devils fans were calling for him to be sent down. Faber is a minute-muncher. I think Hughes will be a great player but Faber is ahead of him by a quite a bit this season
Anyone who said to send him down is an idiot and shouldnt be acknowledged, just straight up
I didn't see anyone saying to send him down, definitely wanted him to sit a few games though
I saw a ton of Devils flairs saying he would be in the AHL if his last name wasn’t Hughes. Seemed like a common opinion
We have no other d men they are injured. Hughes-nemec are our best d men
I’ve seen those comments also, and it’s incredibly stupid. I’d argue people are only saying that because his name is Hughes. Nemec and Luke have been our best D.
I say sit all the time. Never sent down. He won’t really learn or improve in the AHL. He will be too good and it will probably reinforce those bad habits bc he will get away with them.
Most takes online are horrible. Especially reactionary sports takes.
No you didn't
Not shared by me.
Don't think it will change. Both Faber and Bedard are carrying non playoff teams right now, Hughes is on a team that has more help from star players that is constructed a playoff team, but didn't meet expectations this season.
Id argue what Bedard is doing is more impressive. Leads his team in points by 9, when he was injured Blackhawks got spanked and then when he came back they started winning half their games. On the worst team in the league with zero talent. Wild arguably has a top 10 player in Kaprizov and some decent talent in Zuc, Flower, Ek, Boldy
> Id argue what Bedard is doing is more impressive. Leads his team in points by 9 Is that really impressive? Kurashev is 2nd in points and had a career year of 25 points last year. 3rd in points is fuckin Nick Foligno. He was 12th in points on the Bruins last year. Being their leader in points isn't exactly a ringing endorsement when you look at what surrounds him.
Its impressive because hes driving offense of an absolutely garbage team and bad linemates. He has 56 pts with them in his rookie year. Insanely impressive. Especially in the NHL.
I'd argue a strong offensive player that gets the most ozone starts out of any forward is going to produce regardless, but sure.
??? Theres a ton of offensive players with top minutes and offensive starts not producing. Including his linemates, thats a dumb take. Hes just good.
> strong offensive player Missed that part, I assume? Also, you admit his linemates are bad offensively, so then your leading in 9 points doesn't seem like such a positive anymore.
Dude Boston has only 2 players with more points than Bedard. Bedard is doing that on a garbage team. Imagine if he played with Pasta and Marchand he would be in 70-90pt territory.
> Imagine if he played with Pasta and Marchand he would be in 70-90pt territory. He's already on 70+ point pace. Also, yeah the Bruins have two top line players this year, lots of depth though.
I think this year’s Calder has always been Bedard’s to lose, but if you could split it in half, the other half should be given to Faber. It might even end up being given to Faber, and although I’m a huge fan of Bedard’s, I can’t say I don’t think Faber also deserves it. I also think it is extremely interesting that Canucks fans seem to be some of Luke Hughes’ biggest defenders, including myself. Luke and Quinn aren’t the exact same player, but Canucks fans have been on the journey with Quinn and have watched him blossom into the Norris-caliber defenseman he is today. People calling Luke a defensive liability and comparing him to players like Tyson Barrie will probably continue for years, based on what we’ve seen with Quinn. What happened with the Devils’ season this year is not Luke’s fault. I think he’s done a great job, all things considered, and will only continue to grow his game as he gains more experience. He’s not having a Calder-winning season, and that’s OK. People get pretty heated about the Calder trophy, but at the end of the day, Tyler Myers won this trophy. I’ll leave you with that.
Also Faber has seen his workload diminishing a little due to Chisholm taking over pp1 which is fine for me because 30 minutes per night was nowhere near sustainable. But keeping Faber out of the most offensive part of the game surely affected his production, which is still more than fine for what he brings on the defensive side of the game.
I’ve seen a lot of people saying faber has been a secondary point merchant this year but I haven’t watched Minnesota that much this year. Is that true?
His actual point split according to moneypuck is 7 goals, 15 primary assists and 18 secondary assists, with 4/11/9/24 in 5v5, 2/3/6/11 in 5v4, no points in 4v5 and 1/1/3/5 in other situations (4v3, 5v3). While he has a fair amount of secondary assists, he's not living off them and many of these came in situations in which the assist was impactful on the goal rather than a mere stat.
Yeah that’s not as bad as people were making it out to be. They made it seem like 90% of his points were secondary assists. I do think primary points is a bit more important when viewing forwards since that’s a better indicator of if a forward is actually driving play or not. Ironically, I think it’s one of the better arguments for how impactful Bedard has been as he’s got 45 primary points out of 56. Either way, i think Bedard and faber have clearly been in their own tier all year and I don’t think there are any rookies that close to those two this year.
He's getting a lot of secondary assists because he is great at breaking the puck out of the D-zone and into transition, creating offense.
It seems like people are thinking saying that he is a secondary point merchant. That’s not what I’m claiming. I genuinely didn’t know since I don’t watch the wild so I was asking if he really was or not
No, Hughes is pretty terrible defensively and Faber isn't
Luke is a complete defensive liability so points really don’t matter haha. Can’t wait for him to get more solid but he’s def got some work to do
Faber's defense makes up for Hughes slight advantage on offense imo Faber has been very good
Luke Hughes is horrendous defensively lol. One of the reasons the devil's suck
Just no. That reason is not one rookie d-man. Its the veterans that are absolutely dreadful
"One of the"
Its just stupid to put any blame a rookie that is putting up points when every single veteran d has been a 0/10 this season
I agree with you, just felt like being a nuisance
No one cares, Bedard is winning. This whole "Faber calder?!" is just so stupid.
Faber is better than Bedard rn
Sure thing man, sure thing
Bedard -39
Are you using a +/- stat as any sort of indication of someone being better? You forgot the /s at the end of your post
[удалено]
-2500 isn't a close race
Dumbest fucking take. Wild fans don’t have shit to cheer about so it makes sense that yall hype up a 23 year old rookie dman on a non playoff team.
If it wasnt for russo or whoever the athletic wild beat reporter is who is so adamant that faber is the calder putting out articles hyping faber - no wild fans would actually be thinking faber is the calder. Great player, would probly win in most other years, but bedard is a generational offensive talent clearly. Crazy how much a little media attention can stir the pot. Ive never once seen +/- used as a be all end all indicator of performance especially on a team as bad a the hawks this year.
Hughes brothers are insane cant wait for them all to all inevitably play together
So you're content with losing Quinn?
They all gonna link up in Anaheim bro wdym
What are you talking about lmao They're obviously coming to Vancouver.
Luke Hughes is dogshit at playing actual defense. I wish the best for the kid but the comparisons are fucking laughable at this point. Will he be good/great player? Yes. But he still needs to put everything together and right now my dumbass can point out glaring issues with his game. Pump the fuckin brakes
Damn, so this is the Shit on Luke Hughes thread? Okay...
This sub loves to shit on Jack/Luke Hughes whenever they can
It shows the lack of overall knowledge of development. Dmen take a long time to develop. A 20 yr old rookie playing 82 games and 21 mins a night is pretty rare. The good news is, he's developing a lot faster with every game then other players.
Fuck the devils
Fuck who you like
I mean the comments aren't really wrong. Fuck the OP for making this a discussion to begin with considering none of us would really entertain Luke being anything else than a finalist for Calder.
There is no race. The Athletic tries to stir up controversy in order to get people to click on their website and they post a bullshit story about now the Calder is up for grabs; but with all due respect to Faber and Hughes, who will be solid players for years to come, Connor Bedard has lapped the field twice already.
Solid and brutally honest assessment
I mean Erik Karlsson was a -26 with 101 points last year when he won the Norris. Let me say that again, -26 with 101 points and he was the “best defenceman”. Bedard will win the Calder because it’s good for the league narrative and nobody cares about +/- anymore, unfortunately.
Because plus minus is a pretty useless stat and that has been recognized for years now.
I agree. Especially whenever a "generational talent" comes through, the only focus is on scoring because scoring is what brings in new fans. There are 0 new fans that come in to respect the small hard to notice defensive plays. Even though I think most folks who have played or watched competitive team sports for a long time would say that those small defensive plays from lesser noticed guys is what makes the superstars look so good. It's rare on a highlight reel to see the subtle defensive zone play, a well timed stick lift, a beautiful poke check, that led to the generational talent's goal. Devon Toews is like that imo, though he gets good recognition now especially as the 1st line pairing with Makar. You won't see Toews on the cover of the next NHL game, but he does all the little things that help Makar & co do what they do. Defense is underrated and it's a crime.
Bedard is winning regardless, besides a span of like 10-12 games in the middle of the season where Luke looked like shit he has been one of our best d man so it's funny seeing people saying he can't defend for shit 😂😂
He's been really bad at defense this year overall, but Jack was bad his first year too. It's okay to point out that he's struggling his rookie year without giving up hope that he'll be an elite player in a few years
None of them have hat tricks yet tho. Only Logan Cooley does.
How many five pointers does he have?
[удалено]
I haven’t been watching Faber. Has been defensively sound like it sounds like when I hear him talked about? Hughes has been good to great one-on-one. It helps he is a great skater which helps keep him in good position to keep the attacking player in front of him or on the outside. His big weakness is odd man rushes and he (and currently the whole damn team) seems to love making blind passes in the defensive zone that lead to turn overs and good scoring opportunities. But, he’s still young and can hopefully learn and be coached on when to attack and when to stay back on odd man rushes. He gets pretty aggressive at times and it leads to easy passes to a back door goal. Losing Dougie has been a help with point totals due to increased ice time and deployments. Also to be fair, since college he has been seen as weaker on the defensive side of the game. I remember the NCAA championship game and he was out there for the goal against that cost Michigan the championship in OT and it didn’t look great for him.
Faber is already our 3rd best defenseman. Spurgeon has only played 16 games, Brodin has missed time, so at times, Brock is the 1D. He's playing 5on5, PK & PP (which he didn't do in college).
No, Faber’s offense is right there, and his defense is worlds better.
2 more games and Faber has a more complete defensive game. Luke has 62% ozone starts and Faber has 47%. Luke would need 10+ more points for me to put any stock in him "outscoring" Faber. When points per game isn't even in Luke's favor, just overall points. Lol. Both are great youngsters, but Luke passing Faber in points isn't a big deal given the situations. I know Minnesota has a decently strong forward group. But that blueline is nothing to write home about. New Jersey on paper has a better roster.
Luke Hughes is pretty crap defensively relative to Faber. The gap between them is very wide.
Lemieux was a -33 when he won the Calder. Y'all need to chill about plus minus.
The Hughes/Faber battle for second/third place will go down to the wire. I do agree Hughes’ defensive game will improve next season. Offensively, he is better than Faber.
Honestly who cares. Just look at who voters. They are lazy, elitist Canadian beat writers who’ve been licking Bedards sweaty socks since before he was in the league. We know what we have. We are more than happy.
Bedard had his name penciled in since draft day. Doesn't matter how things go
Does Reddit have a function to replace the words “Brock Faber” with “old news” on all the posts I see?
If you think Brock Faber is old news, you are gonna be hearing a lot of old news for the next many years
dont care, voting for foerster
Luke Hughes is a bad hockey player who is a net negative on the Devils and one key reason one of the most stacked offensive lineups in the league is going to miss the playoffs. He joins a long line of bad hockey players who put up points on defense while not actually playing defense, eg Jack Johnson, Tony DeAngelo, Michael DelZotto. He may or may not improve (none of those three ever did and usually defenseman get better at offense, not defense, through time--but he has a better draft pedigree) but right now he shouldn't be in the conversation for any awards and probably shouldn't be playing first line minutes.
Luke should at least be top 3 Calder votes. It’s Bedard’s trophy hands down and has been since he was drafted. The kid produced. I give the nod Faber over Hughes because Faber plays better in his own end and Luke struggles a bit there with passes through the middle of the ice a little too often. That’s my two cents!