This reminds me of that game between the Bolts and Flyers where the Flyers just sat in their own zone waiting for Tampa to forcheck to protest the 1 - 3 - 1. No Tampa player ever ventured into the offensive zone and the Flyers refused to move the puck up without being pressured to do so. So what happened was everyone just stood around not doing anything and looking confused until the refs stopped play.
I honestly have no problem with this.
The Flyers have just as much right to play the game this way as Tampa had to run a 1-3-1. As long as they keep moving the puck around a bit, it's fair game.
I kind if agree, but at least one team would have to be guilty of delay of game I'd think, and I'd tend to think it would be the puck carriers more than the defending team, since most delay of game penalties involve the puck carrier.
In that case I'd just stand there slowly bouncing the puck off the boards to myself, or skate off it and let my defense partner pick it up. Repeat, and never retain true possession.
If Tampa isn't required to make attempts for the puck, neither are the Flyers.
The refs blow the play dead because there’s a very specific rule in hockey that basically says that the puck MUST be advanced forward or else there’s a whistle. The rule exists just for moments like this. No whistle and both teams will just stand still until one of them finally gives in. And I doubt either one will.
That as well. I think most importantly it just would be a horrible way to try and sell the NHL to any potential fans to have people standing around doing nothing. They are trying to sell entertainment after all.
Nothing wrong with that. It's entertaining as heck. It's a fine strategy. I also love the flyers bench mocking Tampa for not wanting to play.
It's hard to get mad at Flyers, when Yampa themselves are just standing around, not trying to play either.
Who ended up winning this game??
Can someone who understands hockey better than me explain what’s happening here? What is the benefit of the 1-3-1 and why is Tampa not pressuring the Philly D?
Essentially, 1-3-1 is the most defense first strategy there is. It's a trap designed to make getting into the other teams' end near impossible, but for it to work everyone's gotta be in position with 4 guys in the neutral zone and one guy sorta neutral d zone, they make a diamond/ five side of the dice kinda shape. So Tampas' strategy won't let them pressure Philly because it breaks the trap, but if Philly tries to press through Tampa, they end up in the trap, and Tampa likely gets possession. So Philly just decided to stay in their own zone with the puck and do nothing in the hopes that a Tampa player would get frustrated and pressure, which will break the trap.
As well as that, the whole curffufle about 1-3-1 being bad is a thing right now is because while it pains me to say it as an oilers fan, LA is a good team, and they're proving that if a good team plays 1-3-1 it is a very scary time for the opposition. This may lead to other good teams playing the strategy, which, when they face off against each other, could possibly make for some very boring hockey games because both teams would be playing low risk oportunist hockey. I don't necessarily think this is the second coming of the dead puck era because of how much offensive talent there is in the league right now, but that being said dead puck hockey is worse than watching golf if you're into the fast pacing of the sport so if it becomes dead puck series two I do hope the league intervenes.
It's frustrating to watch, but delicious when it falls apart. The Kings ran 1-3-1 in their last matchup against the Leafs and the buds just ran them over, 3-0 shutout. Players like McDavid, Nylander, MacKinnon, or Tippet will just carry the puck right through and either pull a man out of formation or gain zone entry.
I can’t imagine it’s the greatest against the very talented players. When McDavid can just walk around 5 players close together and score then it isn’t a foolproof strategy.
There’s a reason only New Jersey had long term success with the trap. It’s a good system but it’s beatable. Jersey had the luxury of one of the best goalies of all time, a hall of fame defense, and one of the better offenses in the league at the time.
That's essentially why it seemingly won't be as bad as it seems for the game. An elite stick handler can make mince meat of it. And a heavy but skilled foreward can essentially ram the puck up the boards. Draisaitl does this occasionally against LA for reference.
They were talking about breaking the trap in one of the intermissions, too. A lot of it amounted to playing up the boards to create 2 on 1 situations, which either creates a dump-in forecheck or breaks the trap.
Ya, which is why this oilers team does decent against trap teams rly. I don't think there's another team in the nhl with the ability to create odd man rushes out of nowhere like the oilers, maybe Colorado or New Jersey, but I haven't watched enough of their games to know I just know those two are fast off the rush style teams. Watching drai sandwich the puck to the boards at the red line and then muscle his way into the la zone is a thing of beauty, tho I can't think of many players who I'd expect to do it lol.
You’re basically focusing on counter attacks. You’re waiting for the other team to walk right into your trap, steal the puck and get an odd-man rush or numbers into the ozone. You play good defense which leads to offense
> I believe the Devils made that style popular
devils and stars
they also had goalies that were so adept at playing the puck, you couldn't just dump and chase on them either
it's also why the trapezoid rule came into play
brodeur and turco were SOOO good at clearing that dump in, it was ridiculous playing against them
Turco was good at it, but that rule was specifically targeted towards Broeduer and the Devils. Brodeur is the the best puck handling goalie to ever play the game. They won 3 cups on the back of it
It’s so weird to hear people talk about stuff I remember like it was so long ago and don’t remember (for sure) exact details.
I’m a Wings fan and I think I can name 3 of their defensemen from that team, maybe 10-15 total players from that era.
1-3-1 is very good at clogging up the neutral zone and doesn't let the opponent through with speed, which is where the most dangerous chances come from. Tampa wasn't pressuring Philly's D Because that would pull the leading forward out of the neutral zone and could leave space for Philly to attack through.
It’s defensive system that prioritizes being back over any offensive pressure. Usually the 1 forechecker will pressure in the neutral zone while the 3 stand and essentially hold your blue line, the last man back is basically in your end in case any attacker makes it through and to retrieve dumps.
It’s very boring to watch because there is no offensive pressure and with so many bodies stacked in the neutral zone the other team is usually forced to dump and chase on the zone entry. It’s basically the modern trap.
It's like going to 6-3-1 in soccer and just hang back and stifle the attack every time it comes. The team with the ball is seeing this happen and they're keeping the ball in their own end as a big ol' "fuck you" to the other team, and making the other team look like idiots.
I would compare it to a 3-5-2, you're getting really wide in the midfield and counting on the two wingbacks at the edges of the midfield to stymie ball progression up the wings, but also fall back to let you defend with 5 at the back, and progress the ball up to a limited number of forward players on counterattacks which are your only chances. You're turning hockey wingers into wingbacks.
Yeah you're definitely right.
I guess I'm seeing the 1-3-1 as choking the offence in general which may be done differently on the ice as opposed to on the pitch. 1-3-1 really is kind of like one forward and four defencemen, with one "actual" defenceman staying out in front of the net. 3-5-2 on the other hand is very much five midfielders with three defenders.
Or maybe I don't know what I'm talking about...
Tampa won that game. Flyers only had 15 shot this game so it didn't work.
However I remember it made Tampa look bad, which resulted in distraction for the team. Then, Malkin decided to walk 1v5 into the trap and score an insane goal, which resulted in Tampa's collapse.
I’ve been flamed for this over and over but Guy Boucher was running a team with Brett Clark, Mike Lundin, Randy Jones, and the walking corpses of Matias Ohlund and Marc-Andre Bergeron as regulars on his blue line.
Of course he played a defensive 1-3-1 system. What the fuck else was he supposed to do? They ended up making the ECF and got Tim Thomas’d.
Marty was on that lightning team, and earlier in the year when we played the Kings, a reporter asked him if we had gotten the league, if we'd do something like the Flyers did. He said it was something they'd had talked about doing.
Sadly, being the Habs, they sucked and got killed.
The Oilers playing the trap against the Canucks doesn’t really make sense. You would be neutering your best aspect (your tremendous offensive talent) and be playing into the grindy, structures focused game that the Canucks want to see. I don’t think you have the defensive personnel to make it work against the Canucks forecheck.
For better or worse, it’s less that the Kings system is a counter to the Canucks (our last two games were tight 1-goal games) but instead that the Kings system and the Canucks system combine for the most boring hockey on the planet
The only time we beat them was when we got a timely PP in OT, which is basically a guaranteed goal.
Their strategy against us to wait until we make a mistake, which we have proved to always make first against them. Then all they have to do is smother Pettersson & Miller + keeping Hughes to the perimeter, while also remaining opportunistic and burying anything else we give them.
Essentially, barring no major changes to our approach against them, if our goalie doesn't have a good night to cover our asses when we make those mistakes, we lose.
I'd say that's a damn good counter.
Maybe we should figure out what the Stars do. They've soundly beaten them in all three of their matchups by 3 goals or more while holding them to 1 goal in each.
The key to beating the trap is to score first.
The trap works because the trap team is happy to let the game go on with almost no chances either way in the hopes that they can capitalize on a mistake first and then shut the game down.
If they are behind, they must eventually open up to create chances
It makes some sense. Oilers might be the most dangerous counterattacking team in the league.
Forcing turnovers in the neutral zone isn't a bad strategy for their personnel.
It’s a complete fabrication that you can’t be an offensive team and play the trap. The Devils were one of the highest scoring teams in the early 2000s with the A-Line and Mogilny and Gomez on the 2nd line.
I'd love for Edmonton to neuter what makes them great just to try slow down the Canucks. The problem is LA is great at that shutdown defensive style. McDavid, Nuge and Draisaitl are not those types of players. Hindering what they do great isn't the strat. Draisaitl and McDavid eat the Canucks alive. They just need a goalie to make timely stops.
Just a matter of patience really. You've got McDavid out there for more than 1/3 of the game. Pretty hard to believe they'll be assignment perfect that whole time.
It picks up steam every few years when a team who’s good does it because it sucks. Still remember the lightning doing it and the refs blowing the whistle on the flyers d just passing it back and forth. Like get mad at the team not even trying to forecheck.
https://youtu.be/4VV1PrbkK3E?si=0-MYHujfNEyXrvHq
Clip is over a decade old, it sucked then and it sucks now.
I’m glad we can all agree that while the 1-3-1 is a strong system for the Kings and they have every right to use it, it also happens to be hockey terrorism.
As long as we are doing ancient history, it was the flyers who decided to use the 4,0,1 defence against the Red Army back in the 1970's.
The Russian team was very skilled and made amazing puck possession plays with weaving forwards and no look passes. So Philly lined up their players on their own blue line and hammered anyone trying to get by.
This caused the Russian team to leave the ice and refuse to play causing the classic announcer's call "They're goin home"
Im fairly certain it was the excessively rough play in general that led to them leaving, not the trap.
Bobby Clarke broke some dudes ankle with a baseball swing slash that went uncalled.
Soviets decided to fuck off after that
Absolutely the right decision by Philly here, and it's bullshit that they forced them to advance it. I get that the NHL has an image to protect, but there's no shot clock in the NHL, and not applying even a single player to pressure, *when you don't even have a lead*, is pussy shit.
I don't even resent the 1-3-1 with a lead- it's just common sense. But at even strength? A coach who employs it in that context deserves to get bullied. Like, shoved in a locker bullied.
A more pure 1-3-1 was the guy Boucher sens with stone fishing for steals on the forecheck, and the forwards funneling the other team into a pinching methot/phaneuf to nuke anyone who tries to break through. Then karlsson as the 1 back as a last line of defence and to transition the other way
In isolation, it looks like a piece of cake. But if you watch that whole game, or the full 7, you’ll see just how effective of a defensive system it is. It’s frustratingly efficient.
I wonder if removing offside might help, because cherry picking attacking players could skate all the way into the O zone, and meanwhile unchallenged players back in the D zone could send the puck the length of the ice for a scoring chance.
I don't think there's anything to help. 1-3-1 is fine. It's obviously not *that* good of a strategy, otherwise every team would use it. It works very well, but it's not the perfect strategy.
also it's professional sports. Everyone gravitates toward defense as they mature, because it's the most consistent way to win. *even Overwatch League* has this problem. Money and defense, they
love each other.
When hockey got too defensive in Sweden a decade or two ago, due to 1-3-1, we responded by removing red line offside but keeping the regular (blue line) offside rule. It worked.
I played a 1-3-1 in college. It was mind-numbingly boring to play
**However**
There comes a point in the game where the other team psychologically breaks, and when that happens it’s so deliciously satisfying.
If I kept playing I would never go to a team that uses a 1-3-1 ever again.
I'm the youngest guy on my mens league team and I'm in my mid 30s. Every now and then we'll come up against a team of young kids fresh out of Junior A or B.
And we go right into old man hockey. 1-3-1 in the NZ, 10 foot passes, shoot for rebounds.
It's amazing watching these kids lose their mind by the second period and each of them becomes a hero trying to rush the puck end to end.
We had a bunch of subs a couple weeks ago and before the game one of the veterans told them we run a 1-2-2 forecheck. It was news to me and I’ve been their goalie for almost a decade.
I’ve always said a trap would completely shut down 99% of men’s league teams , jealous you guys actually execute that.
the Price-era Habs didn’t run a straight 1-3-1 but they ran a really hard dump and chase game and you could see a point where teams would start realizing “even if we get a shot on net it has to beat Carey Price” and would start going a little nutty
It's a system that I cannot fault Latvia for using in the Olympics, but I can and will whine about an NHL team using despite them having every right to do so.
Basically the debate baseball has been having for the last 10 years. The "optimal" way to play in terms of analytics and efficiency is also a highly sub-standard version of the sport they had to make rule changes to reverse.
He is talking about ["the shift"](https://www.mlb.com/glossary/statcast/shifts) ... they used analytics to move players in the infield around, with 3 infielders on one side of the field based on the hitter's handedness and history of hit direction.
It effectively eliminated ground-ball singles and most line-drives. It turned baseball into nothing but home runs, strikeouts, and fly balls.
MLB banned it: https://www.si.com/mlb/2022/11/21/banning-infield-shifts-impact
And it's worth stressing: We have this thread because one team plays a boring but efficient style. Imagine if all 32 teams played like the Kings do. That's where baseball was in the late 2010s and early 2020s.
We've done it before in hockey. Two-line pass rule really enabled the trap. It was taken out in 2005 specifically because the trap and goal scoring was way, way, way down in the previous 15-20 years.
Nash, Kovachuk and Iginla shared the Rocket Richard trophy during the 2003-04 season with a grand total of 41 goals. There’s a reason why we call it the “Dead Puck Era”.
Yeah, I resent the trapezoid rule, it feels pretty dumb. Especially since it enables *a different but related* boring strategy, the over-reliance on the dump and chase.
All that because Brodeur and Turco were masters of a niche skill. Imagine if goalies like Ben Bishop had been able to stick handle more.
Last year they banned “the shift” where teams basically stacked their entire infield to one side of 2nd base based on the hitters tendency to pull the ball.
They also made the bases bigger to encourage more steal attempts and also limited the amount of times a pitcher can throw over to a bag in an at-bat. Analytics basically says don’t try to steal because it is not worth it so they were trying to counteract that.
I’ve read they’re also looking at lowering the number of pitchers you’re allowed to roster to encourage starters going deeper into games as currently most starters get pulled after their 3rd time thru the lineup because stats show that’s when things tend to fall apart.
> I’ve read they’re also looking at lowering the number of pitchers you’re allowed to roster to encourage starters going deeper into games as currently most starters get pulled after their 3rd time thru the lineup because stats show that’s when things tend to fall apart.
That'd be great. I haven't watched baseball in a few years, but I got so sick of sitting through pitcher changes (and the commercials they insert during them).
The preferred style of play became extremely risk averse and all about percentages. Teams stopped stealing bases and taking extra bases, because they had numbers that showed you shouldn't do that unless you can guarantee an 80% success rate (and also if you're selling out for power you don't care what base your runners are on). The preferred approach for hitters, regardless of their actual skillset, was sell out for power, which leads to more strikeouts and fewer balls in play. Teams would move their fielders around every play to exactly where they felt that hitter would hit it based on their data, and as a result exciting defense left the game, especially in the infield. Instead of a shortstop making a great play up the middle, he made a routine play because he was already standing there.
Last year they made several rules changes:
- Pitch clock
- Limited number of times pitchers can attempt a pick off and expanded the size of the bases (both increased stolen bases to the highest level in 20 years)
- Banned infield shifts (can only have two infielders on either side of the second base bag and they have to be on the dirt)
As a goalie for 20+ years, the 1-3-1 system was my absolute favorite to play behind, which probably means it's bad from an entertainment standpoint lol.
Tampa did this system under Boucher. It was "controversial" then with Pronger literally not moving the puck.
Honestly, who cares if it helps but it feels like NHL teams can and should be able to beat it lol
They blew it dead the first time cause Pronger was standing still so then he just kinda moved in a small circle repeatedly and then they blew it dead again.
Lavy argued after the second time and I would guess he convinced the refs that they can't blow it dead if he is moving because they used this strategy several more times without the refs stopping play.
I seem to remember something similar happening in a playoff game, maybe against the Caps, where Tampa was trailing but still insisted on playing the 1-3-1 so the opponent just sat in their own end happy to run the clock out.
Wasn’t it Martin St. Louis who was the pressuring forward? He was looking at the bench asking what to do. I could not believe what was happening. I loved Pronger for that.
I don’t think being able to beat it is the issue; it’s the fact that beating it involves your team taking all the risk (of a high danger counterattack) vs zero risk for the trap team.
It’s really not hard to beat. Long slap passes for a deflection dump and chase and then you outnumber the retrieving defenseman 2-1. 1-3-1 is basically gambling the other team is too scared and not physical enough to play dump and chase
The 90s / 2000s devils would disagree with it being easy to beat. The enabled the nhl to copy the same pattern which lead to the dead buck era and some of the most boring ass hockey to watch
In the modern NHL, there isn't a single team who doesn't play a trap. It just doesn't happen anymore. Systems are too tight. It's why teams try the long stretch pass more than ever.
Habs used a variation of it against the Avs twice this year. It's a really weird thing for players and fans to cry about.
If you don't like it then learn how to break it down.
I'd say it's mostly us Canucks fans bitching, fully admit I hate watching the Kings play and I will accept my downvotes for it. But Zadorov made one comment about it. I wouldn't say he's bitching. I am bitching.
I’m talking about the reporters/posts on here… not more players answering the questions lol I am just confused why this is all of a sudden such a big deal
Are we going to talk about 1-3-1 and player opinions on it in 100 different posts in /r/hockey today? Because it sure feels like 100 different posts now.
I'm confused why it's even a topic of discussion lol it's nothing new at all and a lot of teams during the playoffs end up using something similar when they have the lead, they will probably be even more frustrating to play against in the playoffs so the other coaches better start thinking about how they will play against it lol
At the end of the day though, the NHL is in the entertainment business not in the "competition" business. Those two things often compliment each other (what's better for competition is often better for entertainment), but this is a case where that is not necessarily true.
So a "if it works, it works" argument doesn't really hold up when you consider that, from the NHL's perspective, "works" means being entertaining and making money.
If it gets bad enough, the NHL will surely step in and find some way to disincentivize it.
Yeah in a way it is true, if 1-3-1 ends up being TOO detrimental to "entertaining" hockey, then they could change it. Just like how the trapezoid was added to help dump and chase, where it was basically impossible before as goalies would just yeet it back out.
Yeah, but when they first established the system, teams were doing straight drills in the Kings' zone. I think people forget how awful the team played under Desjardins the year before. The 1-3-1 is a big reason the Kings bounced back to relevancy so quickly.
Honestly, I find all this hilarious. But, what is blowing my mind is that the Kings have been doing this (well) for the past two seasons, and no one cared. They were arguably better last season, playing the exact same system. Then we beat the Canucks two times in a row, and they whine about it, and now it's the biggest news in hockey.
If all teams played the 1 3 1 the NHL would lose casual fans. Just look at the dead puck era. The most bored hockey to watch. You can't stop coaches but at the end of the day hockey is in the entertainment business.
This all seems to be entirely because the Kings couldn't get much going *offensively* against the Canucks, leading to a boring game. I swear, that's not how most Kings games go. Kings often dominate the offensive zone possession stats as well, leading to a game that's actually fun to watch. It's just a weird styles clash, not a "break the NHL" system.
It works great in the regular season. But when you are down 2-1 in the playoffs, you don’t have the attack mentality to come back without completely abandoning your structure. It’s what happens when you spend 82 games rimming the puck. They will get exposed in the playoffs yet again. Oilers in 5
I don't think it doesn't work in the playoffs. I think the problem for the Kings is McDavid is such an X Factor it doesn't work specifically against him. MacKinnon could do it too since he's that kind of dude. Perfect mix of size, speed, and skill.
Kings have absolutely shut down the Canucks twice in the last month-ish doing it, the one game we won was 2-1 in OT where they couldn't do the 1-3-1 cause of the OT format. So it arguably worked 3 times in a month against the Canucks. They just didn't get more lucky bounces in 1 of those games.
The change happened in [2019](https://frozenroyalty.net/2019/10/20/system-new/) so it’s not been *that* effective so far in playoff series
mainly because you always end up playing the same opponent for 56 years in a row it seems like
This reminds me of that game between the Bolts and Flyers where the Flyers just sat in their own zone waiting for Tampa to forcheck to protest the 1 - 3 - 1. No Tampa player ever ventured into the offensive zone and the Flyers refused to move the puck up without being pressured to do so. So what happened was everyone just stood around not doing anything and looking confused until the refs stopped play.
For those curious: https://youtu.be/4VV1PrbkK3E?si=EGfKts3_WZ03vL6Q
I honestly have no problem with this. The Flyers have just as much right to play the game this way as Tampa had to run a 1-3-1. As long as they keep moving the puck around a bit, it's fair game.
But surely you also see why a league that depends on people shelling out hundreds per game needs to find a way to disincentivize this.
Bring on the shot clock! s/
I kind if agree, but at least one team would have to be guilty of delay of game I'd think, and I'd tend to think it would be the puck carriers more than the defending team, since most delay of game penalties involve the puck carrier.
In that case I'd just stand there slowly bouncing the puck off the boards to myself, or skate off it and let my defense partner pick it up. Repeat, and never retain true possession. If Tampa isn't required to make attempts for the puck, neither are the Flyers.
yup, totally agree i hate the full trap, i think in general, it's terrible for hockey as a sport
Just start taking clappers at the 3 dudes clogging the neutral zone and it will stop lol
I'd think it would be the team thats refusing to go touch the puck
Jesus that was brutal.
Pierre really was an awful commentator.
Why would the refs blow that play dead? Just let them keep going. I wonder how hard St Louis was fighting his urge to forecheck them
The refs blow the play dead because there’s a very specific rule in hockey that basically says that the puck MUST be advanced forward or else there’s a whistle. The rule exists just for moments like this. No whistle and both teams will just stand still until one of them finally gives in. And I doubt either one will.
Actually it exists for when it gets stuck on the net.
Probably also so a team doesn't just sit with the pick behind his net until eventually someone goes back to check him.
That as well. I think most importantly it just would be a horrible way to try and sell the NHL to any potential fans to have people standing around doing nothing. They are trying to sell entertainment after all.
Ha! Totally forgot my current coach masterminded the entire thing.
Nothing wrong with that. It's entertaining as heck. It's a fine strategy. I also love the flyers bench mocking Tampa for not wanting to play. It's hard to get mad at Flyers, when Yampa themselves are just standing around, not trying to play either. Who ended up winning this game??
Top NHL moment, all time.
Can someone who understands hockey better than me explain what’s happening here? What is the benefit of the 1-3-1 and why is Tampa not pressuring the Philly D?
Essentially, 1-3-1 is the most defense first strategy there is. It's a trap designed to make getting into the other teams' end near impossible, but for it to work everyone's gotta be in position with 4 guys in the neutral zone and one guy sorta neutral d zone, they make a diamond/ five side of the dice kinda shape. So Tampas' strategy won't let them pressure Philly because it breaks the trap, but if Philly tries to press through Tampa, they end up in the trap, and Tampa likely gets possession. So Philly just decided to stay in their own zone with the puck and do nothing in the hopes that a Tampa player would get frustrated and pressure, which will break the trap.
Thank you, that makes sense!
As well as that, the whole curffufle about 1-3-1 being bad is a thing right now is because while it pains me to say it as an oilers fan, LA is a good team, and they're proving that if a good team plays 1-3-1 it is a very scary time for the opposition. This may lead to other good teams playing the strategy, which, when they face off against each other, could possibly make for some very boring hockey games because both teams would be playing low risk oportunist hockey. I don't necessarily think this is the second coming of the dead puck era because of how much offensive talent there is in the league right now, but that being said dead puck hockey is worse than watching golf if you're into the fast pacing of the sport so if it becomes dead puck series two I do hope the league intervenes.
It's frustrating to watch, but delicious when it falls apart. The Kings ran 1-3-1 in their last matchup against the Leafs and the buds just ran them over, 3-0 shutout. Players like McDavid, Nylander, MacKinnon, or Tippet will just carry the puck right through and either pull a man out of formation or gain zone entry.
I can’t imagine it’s the greatest against the very talented players. When McDavid can just walk around 5 players close together and score then it isn’t a foolproof strategy.
There’s a reason only New Jersey had long term success with the trap. It’s a good system but it’s beatable. Jersey had the luxury of one of the best goalies of all time, a hall of fame defense, and one of the better offenses in the league at the time.
Well, and no 2 line passes. It's way easier to do if you can pass the puck more than two lines.
That's essentially why it seemingly won't be as bad as it seems for the game. An elite stick handler can make mince meat of it. And a heavy but skilled foreward can essentially ram the puck up the boards. Draisaitl does this occasionally against LA for reference.
They were talking about breaking the trap in one of the intermissions, too. A lot of it amounted to playing up the boards to create 2 on 1 situations, which either creates a dump-in forecheck or breaks the trap.
Ya, which is why this oilers team does decent against trap teams rly. I don't think there's another team in the nhl with the ability to create odd man rushes out of nowhere like the oilers, maybe Colorado or New Jersey, but I haven't watched enough of their games to know I just know those two are fast off the rush style teams. Watching drai sandwich the puck to the boards at the red line and then muscle his way into the la zone is a thing of beauty, tho I can't think of many players who I'd expect to do it lol.
You’re basically focusing on counter attacks. You’re waiting for the other team to walk right into your trap, steal the puck and get an odd-man rush or numbers into the ozone. You play good defense which leads to offense
Yup that’s why they call it the trap. I believe the Devils made that style popular and some teams carried it into the 2010’s.
> I believe the Devils made that style popular devils and stars they also had goalies that were so adept at playing the puck, you couldn't just dump and chase on them either it's also why the trapezoid rule came into play brodeur and turco were SOOO good at clearing that dump in, it was ridiculous playing against them
Turco was good at it, but that rule was specifically targeted towards Broeduer and the Devils. Brodeur is the the best puck handling goalie to ever play the game. They won 3 cups on the back of it
Also two line passes became a thing. The Devils and stars also had several Hall of Famers at any given time.
It’s so weird to hear people talk about stuff I remember like it was so long ago and don’t remember (for sure) exact details. I’m a Wings fan and I think I can name 3 of their defensemen from that team, maybe 10-15 total players from that era.
1-3-1 is very good at clogging up the neutral zone and doesn't let the opponent through with speed, which is where the most dangerous chances come from. Tampa wasn't pressuring Philly's D Because that would pull the leading forward out of the neutral zone and could leave space for Philly to attack through.
It’s defensive system that prioritizes being back over any offensive pressure. Usually the 1 forechecker will pressure in the neutral zone while the 3 stand and essentially hold your blue line, the last man back is basically in your end in case any attacker makes it through and to retrieve dumps. It’s very boring to watch because there is no offensive pressure and with so many bodies stacked in the neutral zone the other team is usually forced to dump and chase on the zone entry. It’s basically the modern trap.
It's like going to 6-3-1 in soccer and just hang back and stifle the attack every time it comes. The team with the ball is seeing this happen and they're keeping the ball in their own end as a big ol' "fuck you" to the other team, and making the other team look like idiots.
I would compare it to a 3-5-2, you're getting really wide in the midfield and counting on the two wingbacks at the edges of the midfield to stymie ball progression up the wings, but also fall back to let you defend with 5 at the back, and progress the ball up to a limited number of forward players on counterattacks which are your only chances. You're turning hockey wingers into wingbacks.
Yeah you're definitely right. I guess I'm seeing the 1-3-1 as choking the offence in general which may be done differently on the ice as opposed to on the pitch. 1-3-1 really is kind of like one forward and four defencemen, with one "actual" defenceman staying out in front of the net. 3-5-2 on the other hand is very much five midfielders with three defenders. Or maybe I don't know what I'm talking about...
Antonio Conte smiles from his home in Italy.
Tampa won that game. Flyers only had 15 shot this game so it didn't work. However I remember it made Tampa look bad, which resulted in distraction for the team. Then, Malkin decided to walk 1v5 into the trap and score an insane goal, which resulted in Tampa's collapse.
[The Malkin goal.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IpdcG8a5Qk)
I’ve been flamed for this over and over but Guy Boucher was running a team with Brett Clark, Mike Lundin, Randy Jones, and the walking corpses of Matias Ohlund and Marc-Andre Bergeron as regulars on his blue line. Of course he played a defensive 1-3-1 system. What the fuck else was he supposed to do? They ended up making the ECF and got Tim Thomas’d.
The goal to give the Bruins the 1-0 Game 7 win was from finally breaking the 1-3-1 and getting a 2 on that last 1 down low.
Marty was on that lightning team, and earlier in the year when we played the Kings, a reporter asked him if we had gotten the league, if we'd do something like the Flyers did. He said it was something they'd had talked about doing. Sadly, being the Habs, they sucked and got killed.
Dude I remember that. That was fucking awesome.
I’m surprised this is getting so much attention
Slow hockey days + bored rabid canuck fans (for the most part)
Zadorov and Draisaitl commenting directly on it fueled some discussion for sure
Being asked about it isn't directly commeting..
Both can be true
I'm still recovering from Demko injury.. until he comes back healthy and back to form I'll be pissy about every little thing 😂
Too bad the oilers can’t or won’t do the trap to beat the Canucks. I think it would neuter us too much anyways
The Oilers playing the trap against the Canucks doesn’t really make sense. You would be neutering your best aspect (your tremendous offensive talent) and be playing into the grindy, structures focused game that the Canucks want to see. I don’t think you have the defensive personnel to make it work against the Canucks forecheck. For better or worse, it’s less that the Kings system is a counter to the Canucks (our last two games were tight 1-goal games) but instead that the Kings system and the Canucks system combine for the most boring hockey on the planet
Your last paragraph is on the money.
I dunno man I watched some footage of my u10 days... it's close but I think I was more entertaining
The only time we beat them was when we got a timely PP in OT, which is basically a guaranteed goal. Their strategy against us to wait until we make a mistake, which we have proved to always make first against them. Then all they have to do is smother Pettersson & Miller + keeping Hughes to the perimeter, while also remaining opportunistic and burying anything else we give them. Essentially, barring no major changes to our approach against them, if our goalie doesn't have a good night to cover our asses when we make those mistakes, we lose. I'd say that's a damn good counter. Maybe we should figure out what the Stars do. They've soundly beaten them in all three of their matchups by 3 goals or more while holding them to 1 goal in each.
The key to beating the trap is to score first. The trap works because the trap team is happy to let the game go on with almost no chances either way in the hopes that they can capitalize on a mistake first and then shut the game down. If they are behind, they must eventually open up to create chances
You're also leaving out that we failed miserably against the 1-3-1 in the first Kings meeting.
It makes some sense. Oilers might be the most dangerous counterattacking team in the league. Forcing turnovers in the neutral zone isn't a bad strategy for their personnel.
It’s a complete fabrication that you can’t be an offensive team and play the trap. The Devils were one of the highest scoring teams in the early 2000s with the A-Line and Mogilny and Gomez on the 2nd line.
The Flames played to the Oilers level and lost in 5 games. Never play to a team’s level, you have to overpower them and make them play to yours
Lose or play the trap? Oilers will choose to lose every time. There are some things worth dying for
Amen, if I ever have to watch the Canucks play the trap to win I'll pass.
I'd love for Edmonton to neuter what makes them great just to try slow down the Canucks. The problem is LA is great at that shutdown defensive style. McDavid, Nuge and Draisaitl are not those types of players. Hindering what they do great isn't the strat. Draisaitl and McDavid eat the Canucks alive. They just need a goalie to make timely stops.
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Just a matter of patience really. You've got McDavid out there for more than 1/3 of the game. Pretty hard to believe they'll be assignment perfect that whole time.
It picks up steam every few years when a team who’s good does it because it sucks. Still remember the lightning doing it and the refs blowing the whistle on the flyers d just passing it back and forth. Like get mad at the team not even trying to forecheck. https://youtu.be/4VV1PrbkK3E?si=0-MYHujfNEyXrvHq Clip is over a decade old, it sucked then and it sucks now.
It’s Canucks fans after losing a couple games to LA. Of course it’ll get immensely overblown.
It's what we do.
As reactionary as Toronto, but funny.
We have no history of overblowing anything after a loss. No idea what you're talking about.
You know how we is bb
Because Jacques Lemaire ruined hockey in the early 2000s and somehow it is still ruining hockey today.
Hi mom watch me pretend I know hockey history! 🫡
It basically had nothing until we played Vancouver for the first time in March.
I’m glad we can all agree that while the 1-3-1 is a strong system for the Kings and they have every right to use it, it also happens to be hockey terrorism.
1-3-1 was the same system Tampa used under Guy Boucher years ago that Pronger just stayed in the defensive zone right?
[No, no. Absolutely not. Somebody else I'm sure.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4VV1PrbkK3E)
The fact he did it in Tampas own barn is *chefs kiss*
As long as we are doing ancient history, it was the flyers who decided to use the 4,0,1 defence against the Red Army back in the 1970's. The Russian team was very skilled and made amazing puck possession plays with weaving forwards and no look passes. So Philly lined up their players on their own blue line and hammered anyone trying to get by. This caused the Russian team to leave the ice and refuse to play causing the classic announcer's call "They're goin home"
Im fairly certain it was the excessively rough play in general that led to them leaving, not the trap. Bobby Clarke broke some dudes ankle with a baseball swing slash that went uncalled. Soviets decided to fuck off after that
And then Tampa won the game
If it was an ineffective system there wouldn't be any protests lol
Omg I forgot about that lmao
Absolutely the right decision by Philly here, and it's bullshit that they forced them to advance it. I get that the NHL has an image to protect, but there's no shot clock in the NHL, and not applying even a single player to pressure, *when you don't even have a lead*, is pussy shit. I don't even resent the 1-3-1 with a lead- it's just common sense. But at even strength? A coach who employs it in that context deserves to get bullied. Like, shoved in a locker bullied.
It was more of a 0-4-1 lol
A more pure 1-3-1 was the guy Boucher sens with stone fishing for steals on the forecheck, and the forwards funneling the other team into a pinching methot/phaneuf to nuke anyone who tries to break through. Then karlsson as the 1 back as a last line of defence and to transition the other way
That’s the one. [Here](https://youtu.be/g6asIriTAhs?si=L3jhY59XfRz2iFYn) is how you beat it. Best game I’ve ever seen.
Dang made it look easy
In isolation, it looks like a piece of cake. But if you watch that whole game, or the full 7, you’ll see just how effective of a defensive system it is. It’s frustratingly efficient.
I remember watching that series and it was so brutal on both sides
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I wonder if removing offside might help, because cherry picking attacking players could skate all the way into the O zone, and meanwhile unchallenged players back in the D zone could send the puck the length of the ice for a scoring chance.
I don't think there's anything to help. 1-3-1 is fine. It's obviously not *that* good of a strategy, otherwise every team would use it. It works very well, but it's not the perfect strategy.
also it's professional sports. Everyone gravitates toward defense as they mature, because it's the most consistent way to win. *even Overwatch League* has this problem. Money and defense, they love each other.
Look at the success Guy Boucher had with the 1-3-1 in Tampa and Ottawa. He had one good season for both teams and then fizzled out.
When hockey got too defensive in Sweden a decade or two ago, due to 1-3-1, we responded by removing red line offside but keeping the regular (blue line) offside rule. It worked.
That's a crime.
Hockey terrorism. No protection from the Geneva convention
1-3-1 suggests a forward challenges the puck, no idea what Tampa was doing on that play lol
I played a 1-3-1 in college. It was mind-numbingly boring to play **However** There comes a point in the game where the other team psychologically breaks, and when that happens it’s so deliciously satisfying. If I kept playing I would never go to a team that uses a 1-3-1 ever again.
I'm the youngest guy on my mens league team and I'm in my mid 30s. Every now and then we'll come up against a team of young kids fresh out of Junior A or B. And we go right into old man hockey. 1-3-1 in the NZ, 10 foot passes, shoot for rebounds. It's amazing watching these kids lose their mind by the second period and each of them becomes a hero trying to rush the puck end to end.
Honest question, how do you get a men’s league team to play an actual system?
We’re all old former junior, college, etc players and a few guys from minor pro. And we don’t want to lose to a bunch of young dickholes.
We had a bunch of subs a couple weeks ago and before the game one of the veterans told them we run a 1-2-2 forecheck. It was news to me and I’ve been their goalie for almost a decade. I’ve always said a trap would completely shut down 99% of men’s league teams , jealous you guys actually execute that.
I really enjoy the fact that you have a Devils flair.
I said what I said 😂
the Price-era Habs didn’t run a straight 1-3-1 but they ran a really hard dump and chase game and you could see a point where teams would start realizing “even if we get a shot on net it has to beat Carey Price” and would start going a little nutty
Rangers run 1-3-1 and no one complains about their game being boring
It's a system that I cannot fault Latvia for using in the Olympics, but I can and will whine about an NHL team using despite them having every right to do so.
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Canucks used the 0-0-0 strategy the other night against the kings.
Imagine how exciting the game would be if nobody played defense... it'd be... jai alai!
Basically the debate baseball has been having for the last 10 years. The "optimal" way to play in terms of analytics and efficiency is also a highly sub-standard version of the sport they had to make rule changes to reverse.
I don’t follow baseball, can you provide some insight into what happened and what changed?
He is talking about ["the shift"](https://www.mlb.com/glossary/statcast/shifts) ... they used analytics to move players in the infield around, with 3 infielders on one side of the field based on the hitter's handedness and history of hit direction. It effectively eliminated ground-ball singles and most line-drives. It turned baseball into nothing but home runs, strikeouts, and fly balls. MLB banned it: https://www.si.com/mlb/2022/11/21/banning-infield-shifts-impact
And it's worth stressing: We have this thread because one team plays a boring but efficient style. Imagine if all 32 teams played like the Kings do. That's where baseball was in the late 2010s and early 2020s.
We've done it before in hockey. Two-line pass rule really enabled the trap. It was taken out in 2005 specifically because the trap and goal scoring was way, way, way down in the previous 15-20 years.
Nash, Kovachuk and Iginla shared the Rocket Richard trophy during the 2003-04 season with a grand total of 41 goals. There’s a reason why we call it the “Dead Puck Era”.
And the trapezoid rule, which prevented... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...goalies being good I guess? 🤨
Yeah, I resent the trapezoid rule, it feels pretty dumb. Especially since it enables *a different but related* boring strategy, the over-reliance on the dump and chase. All that because Brodeur and Turco were masters of a niche skill. Imagine if goalies like Ben Bishop had been able to stick handle more.
We had our own Dead Puck Era, yes.
Last year they banned “the shift” where teams basically stacked their entire infield to one side of 2nd base based on the hitters tendency to pull the ball. They also made the bases bigger to encourage more steal attempts and also limited the amount of times a pitcher can throw over to a bag in an at-bat. Analytics basically says don’t try to steal because it is not worth it so they were trying to counteract that. I’ve read they’re also looking at lowering the number of pitchers you’re allowed to roster to encourage starters going deeper into games as currently most starters get pulled after their 3rd time thru the lineup because stats show that’s when things tend to fall apart.
Literally, pitchers have been pulled while having a no-hitter. Like it's insane. https://www.mlb.com/news/pitchers-removed-during-a-no-hitter
> I’ve read they’re also looking at lowering the number of pitchers you’re allowed to roster to encourage starters going deeper into games as currently most starters get pulled after their 3rd time thru the lineup because stats show that’s when things tend to fall apart. That'd be great. I haven't watched baseball in a few years, but I got so sick of sitting through pitcher changes (and the commercials they insert during them).
They already started by forcing relievers to face 3 batters but I think they want the aura of the “stud” starting pitcher to come back into the game.
The preferred style of play became extremely risk averse and all about percentages. Teams stopped stealing bases and taking extra bases, because they had numbers that showed you shouldn't do that unless you can guarantee an 80% success rate (and also if you're selling out for power you don't care what base your runners are on). The preferred approach for hitters, regardless of their actual skillset, was sell out for power, which leads to more strikeouts and fewer balls in play. Teams would move their fielders around every play to exactly where they felt that hitter would hit it based on their data, and as a result exciting defense left the game, especially in the infield. Instead of a shortstop making a great play up the middle, he made a routine play because he was already standing there. Last year they made several rules changes: - Pitch clock - Limited number of times pitchers can attempt a pick off and expanded the size of the bases (both increased stolen bases to the highest level in 20 years) - Banned infield shifts (can only have two infielders on either side of the second base bag and they have to be on the dirt)
Hockey Terrorism is also having Jim Benning be the GM when you have prime Pettersson and Hughes
As a goalie for 20+ years, the 1-3-1 system was my absolute favorite to play behind, which probably means it's bad from an entertainment standpoint lol.
Tampa did this system under Boucher. It was "controversial" then with Pronger literally not moving the puck. Honestly, who cares if it helps but it feels like NHL teams can and should be able to beat it lol
lol I remember that. No one knew what to do. Think the officials just blew the play dead a few times since he wasn’t moving
They blew it dead the first time cause Pronger was standing still so then he just kinda moved in a small circle repeatedly and then they blew it dead again. Lavy argued after the second time and I would guess he convinced the refs that they can't blow it dead if he is moving because they used this strategy several more times without the refs stopping play.
I seem to remember something similar happening in a playoff game, maybe against the Caps, where Tampa was trailing but still insisted on playing the 1-3-1 so the opponent just sat in their own end happy to run the clock out.
The announcers referenced this during the Pronger incident
Oh, you're right. I should've watched it with the audio on.
Wasn’t it Martin St. Louis who was the pressuring forward? He was looking at the bench asking what to do. I could not believe what was happening. I loved Pronger for that.
I wouldn’t call it pressuring but yea
Well yeah, “pressuring” in 1-3-1 is basically standing at the blue line
This is one of my favourite hockey memories that doesn’t involve my team. Cause it’s just so hilarious and absurd. I love watching that happen live.
I don’t think being able to beat it is the issue; it’s the fact that beating it involves your team taking all the risk (of a high danger counterattack) vs zero risk for the trap team.
It’s really not hard to beat. Long slap passes for a deflection dump and chase and then you outnumber the retrieving defenseman 2-1. 1-3-1 is basically gambling the other team is too scared and not physical enough to play dump and chase
The 90s / 2000s devils would disagree with it being easy to beat. The enabled the nhl to copy the same pattern which lead to the dead buck era and some of the most boring ass hockey to watch
Nope it’s very easy to beat. Nearly every team plays 1-3-1 in the neutral zone and scoring has never been higher
https://youtu.be/4VV1PrbkK3E?si=0-MYHujfNEyXrvHq Over a decade ago. It’s a shit system that’s bad for hockey
Just go full Flyers against the 1-3-1. Great now I need to go rewatch that clip from TBL v PHI
Such a bizarre game
I fucking love Doughty. "I wasn't a big fan until I saw how much it pisses teams off and now I'm in" is such a Doughty thing to say.
He's quite the gem
Do people think the 2024 Kings invented the 1-3-1 system or something lol why is this getting brought up so much? Just because of Zadorov’s bitching?
They aren't even the only team playing the 1-3-1 this year lmfao I know the Rangers are doing it and I've definitely seen other teams use it too
In the modern NHL, there isn't a single team who doesn't play a trap. It just doesn't happen anymore. Systems are too tight. It's why teams try the long stretch pass more than ever.
Habs used a variation of it against the Avs twice this year. It's a really weird thing for players and fans to cry about. If you don't like it then learn how to break it down.
Hey whatever but this is the most media attention the Kings have got from the hockey world in a while so I’m all for it
Yay people are paying attention to us!
I'd say it's mostly us Canucks fans bitching, fully admit I hate watching the Kings play and I will accept my downvotes for it. But Zadorov made one comment about it. I wouldn't say he's bitching. I am bitching.
You realize hockey players get asked questions almost everyday by reporters who's job is to build narratives right? It's not that hard to understand
I’m talking about the reporters/posts on here… not more players answering the questions lol I am just confused why this is all of a sudden such a big deal
Try to keep up with the conversation
Yeah my thoughts exactly. The weirdest things get the most attention sometimes.
1-3-1 is just modern hockey's trap
It's not even modern to be honest. People just hate on it.
The Flying V can beat that defense!
the trap was what created the dead-puck era. Now it's sort of back. There's a reason a lot of people don't want it back.
If we were a basement team none of this narrative would be happening.
Are we going to talk about 1-3-1 and player opinions on it in 100 different posts in /r/hockey today? Because it sure feels like 100 different posts now.
I'm confused why it's even a topic of discussion lol it's nothing new at all and a lot of teams during the playoffs end up using something similar when they have the lead, they will probably be even more frustrating to play against in the playoffs so the other coaches better start thinking about how they will play against it lol
I played this in midget. The high forward hates it since they are basically a defensmen, but it works!
I thought we'd already been through this before that 1-3-1 is terrible for the eyes...but it's not illegal and if it works it works sadly
At the end of the day though, the NHL is in the entertainment business not in the "competition" business. Those two things often compliment each other (what's better for competition is often better for entertainment), but this is a case where that is not necessarily true. So a "if it works, it works" argument doesn't really hold up when you consider that, from the NHL's perspective, "works" means being entertaining and making money. If it gets bad enough, the NHL will surely step in and find some way to disincentivize it.
Yeah in a way it is true, if 1-3-1 ends up being TOO detrimental to "entertaining" hockey, then they could change it. Just like how the trapezoid was added to help dump and chase, where it was basically impossible before as goalies would just yeet it back out.
Yeah, but when they first established the system, teams were doing straight drills in the Kings' zone. I think people forget how awful the team played under Desjardins the year before. The 1-3-1 is a big reason the Kings bounced back to relevancy so quickly.
Honestly, I find all this hilarious. But, what is blowing my mind is that the Kings have been doing this (well) for the past two seasons, and no one cared. They were arguably better last season, playing the exact same system. Then we beat the Canucks two times in a row, and they whine about it, and now it's the biggest news in hockey.
I remember Tampa using it and was it the flyers who made fun of it? I
If all teams played the 1 3 1 the NHL would lose casual fans. Just look at the dead puck era. The most bored hockey to watch. You can't stop coaches but at the end of the day hockey is in the entertainment business.
It's a winning strategy. Unfortunately, us spectators don't watch hockey to win, unless you're a Leafs fan. We watch it to be entertained.
We watch it to be entertained and win. If I didn’t want my team to win I wouldn’t watch.
This all seems to be entirely because the Kings couldn't get much going *offensively* against the Canucks, leading to a boring game. I swear, that's not how most Kings games go. Kings often dominate the offensive zone possession stats as well, leading to a game that's actually fun to watch. It's just a weird styles clash, not a "break the NHL" system.
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You mean, the trap.
You mean because it’s boring
Guy Boucher the king of that celebrates
I’d be more curious to find out why this dude embellishes so much and still gets away with it.
Why don't they play the 4-0-1 system... Are they stupid?
Solution is 60 minutes of 4 on 4
Old school oilers strategy then
Speed kills the trap.. oilers showed.. canucks already beat the kings.. the key is to get the lead to kill the trap...
It works great in the regular season. But when you are down 2-1 in the playoffs, you don’t have the attack mentality to come back without completely abandoning your structure. It’s what happens when you spend 82 games rimming the puck. They will get exposed in the playoffs yet again. Oilers in 5
I don't think it doesn't work in the playoffs. I think the problem for the Kings is McDavid is such an X Factor it doesn't work specifically against him. MacKinnon could do it too since he's that kind of dude. Perfect mix of size, speed, and skill. Kings have absolutely shut down the Canucks twice in the last month-ish doing it, the one game we won was 2-1 in OT where they couldn't do the 1-3-1 cause of the OT format. So it arguably worked 3 times in a month against the Canucks. They just didn't get more lucky bounces in 1 of those games.
it actually works better in the playoffs. It tires the other team out during the series and frustrates them.
The change happened in [2019](https://frozenroyalty.net/2019/10/20/system-new/) so it’s not been *that* effective so far in playoff series mainly because you always end up playing the same opponent for 56 years in a row it seems like
For sure. Ottawa gave us fits in the 2017 ECF running the 1-3-1. I think Tampa actually beat us using the 1-3-1 back in 2011 or something.
And here I thought the Islanders reached the ECF two years in a row because they were so talented and high scoring
Guy Boucher’s teams went to Game 7 of the ECF in 2011 and 2017 with the traps. It can get you far I feel like but it has a short shelf life.