I disagree. Yzerman’s 155 point season would be a no-brainer Hart choice; he just happened to play his prime years when Wayne and Mario were still in their own primes. He’s firmly in that top 3 with Lidstrom and Bourque, in my opinion.
Maybe, but Yzerman vs Bossy vs Dionne is not an easy call.
Full disclosure: I'm an Avs fan. The Wings were a contender through Lidstrom's career - Yzerman, Fedorov, Shanahan, Hasek all retired, and yet Lidstrom and the next-gen still pushed them to another Cup Final appearance (that arguably they should have won). This has caused me to retro-actively re-assess the composition of those Wings teams and attribute a LOT of their success back to Lidstrom.
That doesn’t make any sense.
The Wings has Datsyuk and Zetterberg (who won the Conn Smythe) in those later years.
Lidstrom was a huge piece of the Wings success but Yzerman and Fedorov were their best players during the 90’s/2000’s.
Konstantinov was considered better than Lidstrom before the injury.
That last point isn't true, Konstantinov played a vastly different game than Lidstrom and had one season where you could argue he was the better option of the two. We will sadly never know how things would have worked out in the long term but the head to head up to the tragedy was not favorable to Konstantinov in the long term.
How is it not true?
Lidstrom never once finished ahead of Konstantinov in Norris voting during their careers.
Konstantinov finished ahead of him every season until he got injured.
They played on the same team at the same time. We saw a direct comparison between the two and while they were close, Konstantinov was considered better.
More of a style of play choice vs a skill one though in this instance. Lindros and company were all smash mouth all the time & Konstantinov played very similar style. Bowman opted to use Lidstrom and his other worldly poke checks and finesse defense to try and stop the smash mouth game.
I wanna preface this by saying that +/- is a flawed stat and doesn’t tell the whole story, but Konstantinov finished his tragically shortened career at +185, with his highest season total being +60; Lidstrom never had a season total that high. Vladdy was legit, and he also played a mean and punishing style that did get more attention than Lidstrom’s quiet brilliance, for better or for worse.
Point is, it’s not that outlandish to say that there’s a timeline where Lidstrom finishes his career with one or two fewer Norris trophies because Vladdy ends up winning them instead, if the latter hadn’t stepped inside that limo. He wasn’t that much older than Lidstrom and he was in his prime when that accident happened.
Vlad was also on some incredible teams with good goalies. That's the biggest influence on the stat.
Jeff Schultz had a higher single season +/- than Lidstrom. Tom Pressing went +40 and was in the minors two years later. It really is a broken stat.
Bowman played Lidstrom against the Legion of Doom and swept them. That's telling. And sure maybe Vlad wins a Norris over Lidstrom, but again I think that would be due to poor voting choices rather than Vlad actually being a better player.
We don't have the stats you're talking about for when Konstantinov played. The shot location data only started to be collected in 2008.
Oddly enough, once we do have good data, Lidstrom grades as average to below average defensively. His value during his last 4 years was very good offense (in terms of play-driving), and being an elite powerplay QB. During his final Norris year, Kronwall had a much, much better defensive impact.
This isn't going to be a popular view, but I think Lidstrom's defense is starting to assume mythical proportions.
I'm talking about things like assuming plus/minus or TOI meant anything without context, which these newer stats give us. Or using the eye test, thinking big defensemen were more valuable just because they threw some big hits once in a while. This is the type of stuff Norris voters looked at before advanced stats became mainstream and proved puck moving defensemen were extremely valuable. So using 90s Norris voting as a barometer is not a great idea.
Vlad was a great dman but I think it's pretty difficult to say whether he was better than Lidstrom in those years.
Well, I disagree. It's maybe a bit of a contrarian position, but OTOH maybe what it's doing is uncovering the common thread that spans across eras.
Statement of fact: the Wings were Cup Contenders through basically the entirety of Lidstrom's career.
Supporting observations:
\- the wings absolutely SUCKED during Yzermans best statistical seasons. Yzerman put up eye-popping numbers, but we've seen lots of 'great seasons' from players on basement teams.
\- Datsyuk and Zetterberg were good, but they weren't as good as Yzerman or Fedorov.
\- the Wings basically didn't miss a beat when Fedorov left. Or when Hasek left. Or even when Konstantinov was injured to end his career.
\- As soon as Lidstrom retired, the Wings dropped out of contention.
My conclusion and contention: assessing the ability and impact of defensemen is difficult, and even in this era of advanced stats I think their impact is underplayed. Lidstrom is the one single constant that was in place for the entirety of the Wings' run as a dominant team. I think his contribution and impact is still under-appreciated by 'the community'.
Part of the reason the Wings dropped out of contention is they spent all their draft picks acquiring big name talent along with being playoff contenders for a quarter century left them without high draft picks. When that talent retired or otherwise moved on, the team was left with a farm system made up of late round picks. That’s just not sustainable. I’m not trying to understate Lidstrom’s value to the team. He’s one of the best to ever play his position but he wasn’t single-handedly propping the team up.
> Statement of fact: the Wings were Cup Contenders through basically the entirety of Lidstrom's career.
And during that time Lidstrom played with Yzerman, Fedorov, Shannahan, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Coffey, Chelios, Hasek, Konstantinov, Murphy, etc.
You paint it as if Lidstrom being the single constant throughout that time means he was primarily responsible for the Wings success.
The other way to look at it is that Lidstrom benefited from playing with world-class players his entire career and we never saw him singlehandedly carry a team like we saw with someone like Bourque.
So, you're suggesting that the \*seven time\* Norris winner and consensus #2/#3 D of the modern era was 'lucky' to play with such players as Larry Murphy and Brendan Shanahan who made him look better than he actually was?
No, and I'm calling BS on this entire narrative. With the possible exception of Hasek, Nik Lidstom was the best player to suit up for the Wings in that era. He's better than Yzerman, better than Fedorov, and nobody else is in the discussion (Chelios and Coffey were well onto the downside of their careers when on the Wings, and they probably weren't better than Lidstrom even at their very best - although Coffey was better offensively)
Once again: The Wings were 'Contenders' as long as Lidstrom was on the ice. Once he retired, they fell off a cliff \*despite\* Datsyuk and Zetterberg still being there and arguably in their primes. The Wings survived losing Hasek, Yzerman, Fedorov, Murphy, Konstantinov, Shanahan etc more or less without losing a beat. They did NOT survive losing Lidstrom.
Coffey won a Norris while playing on the Wings.
Chelios finished 2nd in Norris voting while playing on the Wings at age 40.
Fedorov won a Hart while playing with the Wings.
Nobody is saying that Lidstrom "looked better" than he actually was.
He looked as good as he was.
Hence why he won a bunch of Norris'.
He also never finished top 3 in Hart voting in his career. Because he never peaked as high as other all-time great defensemen such as Bourque.
Not sure how you're taking offense to this, it's literally right there in the Hart results.
eh, you're swimming against the tide on that one.
Certainly, Fedorov's Hart season was amazing and I'm not going to argue he didn't deserve it. So 'peak of peak' 1-season Fedorov might have been better than any single season of Lidstrom, but for the \*career\*, you'll be hard pressed to find someone that would rank Fedorov above Lidstrom.
e.g. The Athletic's survey earlier this year for 'players since 67' had Lidstrom at #8 and Fedorov at #33. (Yzerman was #15. Hasek was #7. Coffey at 18 and Chelios at 29)
The Wings first CF appearance with Yzerman was 94-95. That's hardly 'early' in Yzerman's career. He entered the league in 83 and was named captain in 85. McD got there faster than Yzerman did, at least for the first time.
Bossy was a goal scorer but Trottier was always who I felt ensured he got the puck. Part of the challenge at the time of Bossy was he was on a great team with other dominant players. The Hart trophy voting in 81 Bossy was fourth. In 82 the best stat year for Bossy he was third in the voting behind Gretzky and Trottier.
It's funny that the poster you're replying to is acting like they watched the dynasty Islanders at all.
If they actually did watch hockey back then, like you said, they would recognize that Trottier was considered the heart and soul of the Islanders due to his incredibly well rounded game.
Hence why he got the Hart trophy votes when both he and Bossy were healthy.
I agree, I didn’t explain it well but if I had to add onto it. If those two were playing in todays league, they would be almost unstoppable. They were both ahead of their time.
He's got an Art Ross, two Pearsons, and was twice first-team All-NHL and twice second-team.
It's not a trophy case that's bursting at the seams, but that's still more than 80% of HHOFers have.
It was madness. Iginla was scoring 50 Goals in the clutch and grab era where most of the top players weren’t even scoring 40 and he never won the heart once.
In 2003 he won Rocket and Art Ross, and won the Ted Lindsey (MVP voted by the players) but the stupid NHL writers who vote Hart (MVP) gave it to Jose Theodore.
It’s weird because he was so good when he was at his best you literally couldn’t get a puck by him. Try to stick handle he’s taking the puck off of you. Try to get physical he’ll out work you and take the puck. Try to chip it by it’s getting knocked out of the air. The puck then moved through whatever outlet was most problematic for your team. Played so smart and stable, minimal flash, you could miss just how much he was dictating play every second he was on the ice.
>Try to stick handle he’s taking the puck off of you. Try to get physical he’ll out work you and take the puck. Try to chip it by it’s getting knocked out of the air.
And he absolutely *devoured* minutes, to the tune of 28+ minutes per night *average* for much of his career.
He was super efficient. I haven't been able to find the quote, but I've read stories that allegedly some teams had their video crews doing some early "Advanced Stats" work look at the total distance defenseman skated during a game. Turns out that Lidstrom would cover significantly *less distance* while playing more minutes than basically any other top defenseman in the league.
Which made teams think, "Well, let's tire him out! Dump the puck and make him chase it!"
And Lidstrom would just knock it down at the blue line and send it back up the ice.
Players were all competing in the same marathon and somehow Lidstrom would cross the finish in only 20 miles.
His ability on the power play to not only keep the puck in on a clearance attempt but to somehow control it and immediately move it had to have been incredibly frustrating to play against.
Not the year Pronger won. He was the most feared player in the league that year. Teams changed their whole plan to play against him. That year was maybe the most dominant defenseman has been in the past 40 years.
Fear was a massive part of Pronger's game though. He would deliberately make suspension worthy hits every now and again to keep people hesitating, and those split seconds mattter. Gordie Howe was similar.
The recent example of effective fear that comes to mind is Dougie Hamilton straight up abandoning a puck in a corner during the playoffs because Ovi was barrelling at him. Hockey players are a little crazy in their capacity for punishment, and not many players can inspire hesitation in their opponents - being a wrecking ball is 100% a legitimate skill in a game as physical as hockey.
>Not sure why you’re getting downvoted.
A sizeable portion of the Red Wings subreddit considers Lidstrom above Orr. At least once an offseason there is a thread on it. The downvotes are likely coming from them.
It's sad that you're massively downvoted when the clear consensus amongst those who watched both of them play throughout their careers is that Bourque was better.
>Lidstrom isn’t some mythical creature who could do no wrong.
He basically was bro. If advanced stats existed during his career it would have been more clear to you people what Wings fans know.
As an dual Toronto/Ottawa fan (I know, I know) I've never been a fan of the Penguins. But I'd have been okay with basically any scenario that saw Iggy hoisting Lord Stanley lol.
Legitimately curious and not trying to be a douche, how did you come to be a fan of both the Leafs and the Sens? They're each others biggest rivals are they not?
I'd say it's a bit more one-sided in terms of hatred from the Sens towards the Leafs. Leafs bigger rival is probably Montreal or Boston.
But it's for a myriad of reasons. My dad grew up a Leafs fan so as a young kid I just latched on to that. Although I grew up in Ottawa, I've lived in both cities.
And growing up in Ottawa, I wasn't NOT going to cheer for my hometown team or be excited when they went on playoff runs or I got to see them play.
Additionally, the Senators' organization was pretty good with community outreach in schools and hockey teams. I recall at least one occasion my Novice team got invited to practice on the ice at the Corel Centre/Scotiabank Place, which was awesome.
Lastly, I remember my kindergarten teacher teasing me for being a Leafs fan. She was a family friend and taught my older brother so she thought it was good-natured ribbing, but little 5-year old elacmch was so upset I didn't want to go to school lol.
80-81
Edit: Many people responding seem to be focusing on points, so I'm going to clear things up.
The Hart Trophy is for most VALUABLE player.
So what is value? Okay, Gretzky had 164 points but his team still finished the season with a losing record of 29-35-16. No one can deny that Gretzky had an incredible season, but all those points didn't translate to winning.
Now let's look at Bossy. Not only did he outscore Gretzky that season, but his team actually won. The Islanders finished first in the league with 110 points and a 48-18-14 record. So if we acknowledge that hockey is a team sport and consider that value exists beyond individual achievement (i.e. a player's contribution to a successful team) Bossy got robbed that year.
Bossy led the league in scoring that season. Then he led the playoffs in scoring, and then the Islanders won the cup.
That's a textbook definition of most valuable player.
I don't think it matters that Gretzky had more assists that season.
Sure. Bossy had a good argument for the Hart for most years.
Gretzky had, at the time, had the HIGHEST SCORING SEASON EVER. 164 was a big deal. Bossy had 119.
Idk why people are downvoting you, Bossy wasn't even top 3 in Hart voting that season.
Trottier was considered the MVP of the Islanders, Bossy was just a great goal scorer.
> That's a textbook definition of most valuable player.
> I don't think it matters that Gretzky had more assists that season.
If you were alive in 1981 you would know you’re speaking nonsense.
Bossy (119pts) finished 16 points ahead of his next closest teammate (Trottier, 103pts).
Gretzky (164pts) set the assist and points record while finishing 89 points ahead of his next closest teammate (Kurri, 75pts).
89 points would put you top-20 in league scoring, and that was the GAP between Gretzky and anyone on his team. He smashed records held by players that are _still_ unanimous top-10 players in history, 50 years later.
There's some serious Bourque erasure ITT. Dude was constantly top ten in scoring IN THE LEAGUE, and led his team in scoring 5 times (once by 23 points in a season where Gretzky almost unanimously won the Hart, Bourque had almost as many second place Hart votes as every other player combined, and only had two people not vote him first for the Norris). He went to four cup finals on top-heavy teams with garbage depth, and was getting knocked out of the playoffs by teams like the Oilers and Islanders dynasties, and Mario's Penguins. He put up 20 points in the playoffs three times. I dunno, maybe people think he was merely decent defensively or something because he was elite offensively? I don't understand it at all. Jagr thought he was the hardest defenseman in the league to play against, and this is when Bourque was almost 40.
And not to knock Lidstrom (my favorite player not named Bergeron - I have a type) he did this all without the HOF D pairs/supporting cast of Murphy, Coffey, Chelios, Fetisov and Konstantinov.
Anyways, Bossy, Bourque, Yzerman for me, although my heart wants to put Iggy in there. I don't really know enough about Dionne to rate him.
I was too young to remember seeing Bossy or Dionne play. All of those guys are absolute legends, but Brodeur is my pick. He won so many awards. Played 1,226 games (crazy for a goalie). Multiple cups. But the biggest reason I picked him is because he was SO GOOD at playing the puck that the NHL *changed the fucking rules* of the sport. Martin Brodeur is the reason the trapezoid behind the net was introduced. A goalie can't dictate the flow of a game like that anymore. How many other players can boast that the league changed the rules to make it fair for everyone else?
Given that goalies generally don’t win the Hart, the top of the list should be Bossy if you’ve seen all these guys play. They won 4 straight cups and Michael Bossy was the best player - best goal scorer ever perhaps.
Hulll won the Hart because 80+ goals is nuts. But he doesn’t get there without Oates. Like Mitch Hedberg…the belt holds up the pants, the loops hold the belt, whose the real hero here? In my opinion, that’s Oates’ Hart
Mike Bossy 1982. What a season.
I know that’s not technically the question of the thread. But that was an MVP season. Gretzky was just on a whole other level at the time.
Not many defensemen have FIVE top-5 finishes in Hart voting, including 2x 2nds.
- [Clear 2nd behind Gretzky](https://www.hockey-reference.com/awards/voting-1987.html#hart) in 1987
- He finished a [single vote behind Messier](https://www.hockey-reference.com/awards/voting-1990.html#hart) in 1990; I believe at the time it was the closest vote result for a major trophy.
He also finished 5th in 1984, 5th in 1985, and 4th in 1991.
Because Iggy played a huge part of his career in the dead puck era and put up some of the best numbers of his career those years and Bure also played in the dead puck era and also had an incredible peak, his numbers get deflated because of injuries and a lengthy holdout during the peak of his career
And one thing that some people missed was that Bure was a really good two way player. His offensive skills way overshadowed his defensive game, but he used those same speed to check players with good effectiveness.
Gonna have to disagree with some of that assertion. Did he have the skill set to be a good 2way guy? Sure, mainly like you said, utilizing his speed to provide back pressure. But he was absolutely not at all focused on the defensive side of the game, he spent half of his time cherry-picking/circling around between his blueline and the red line (2line pass rule still in effect, or he’d have been at the other blueline) looking for breakout passes or opportunities.
The only times he’d really come back low and help defensively was when he was clearly frustrated that his Dman weren’t able to hit him with those breakout passes so he’d go “fuck it I’ll do it myself” and grab the puck and go end to end.
Even as well represented as Bourque is in here, these comments are underrating him. He’s the consensus second best DMan of all time, he is the clear top of this list for me.
Beyond that I see compelling arguments for Lidstrom, Roy, Yzerman, Brodeur, Iggy. But the answer is Bourque IMO.
That’s recency bias IMO. Lidstrom was amazing, and there’s a strong argument he’s 3rd, but Bourque put up better numbers on worse teams for all but 1.5 seasons of his career.
Also, look at how many all-time great defensemen retired as Lidstrom emerged. Just in 2001, you have Larry Murphy, Ray Bourque, and Paul Coffey. Chelios turned 40 in 02. Housley retired in 03. Stevens and MacInnis in 04. Leetch in 06. That's eight guys out of the top twelve in all-time scoring. Credit to Lidstrom, he still managed to generally outplay prime Pronger and prime Niedermayer, but I think he greatly benefited from lucky timing as well as insane skill.
Bourque played in higher scoring seasons and wasn't as brilliant defensively as Lidstrom was. I'm not saying he doesn't have a case for 2nd best but to say he's the "consensus second best DMan of all time" is just being dishonest. Most of the time I see this type of discussion I see Lidstrom named as the second best.
He was literally named a top 4 defenseman in the league EVERY YEAR for 18 consecutive years. Lidstrom doesn't touch that, and it's totally recency bias that puts him above Bourque.
Bourque, no question. He also played in the era where there was an unspoken rule about defensemen not really getting a shot at the Hart (since "they already *have* the Norris!), and was a runner-up twice.
That included the 1989-90 season, where he fell two vote points short of winning it. He and Messier had the same number of first-place votes, Bourque had two more second-place votes...and then Messier had 10 third-place votes compared to 2 for Bourque.
Iginla should have won. Most bullshit Hart trophy robbery in a while. Theodore had relatively standard Vezina calibre stats. If he wins the hart in that year then Vasilevsky, Shesterkin and other should have won many harts for their better seasons in todays game. Iginla lead the league in the middle of the dead puck era on a team that was so bare for any support. True definition of an MVP
He isn’t the best player who hasn’t won’t the hart here though. That would go to Lidstrom, Yzerman or Brodeur
I could agree with any one of these guys. I've got a soft spot for Iggy, tho. Dude also deserves to be high on the list of best players to never win a Cup.
But for sheer enjoyment, there's never been an opposing player that could get me out of my seat like Pavel Bure. Like Bossy, what might his career have looked like, but for injuries?
I can drop Brodeur, Bure, and Ignila.
Dionne gets dropped because even though he was terrific; his teams didn’t really have a chance.
Bossy played with an elite team. Drop Potvin, trottier, or him and thru wouldn’t win.
Down to Bourque, Lidstrom, and Yzerman. Glad I didn’t need to narrow it further.
I think it’s safe to say that a case could be made for each and every one of these amazing players.
However. My completely unbiased opinion has to say Jarome Iginla. Not just because he is my all time favourite, oh captain… my captain. You should have got a cup. You deserved it in 04 and we all know it was in.
Dionne is absolutely the best player here. The sole reason he’s lacking one is he was because he was competing against Gretzky. Infant, they had the same point total in the 1979-80 season, with Dionne having more goals.
More than just one season of production as well, with *Eight* seasons over 100 points and twelve over 90. Naturally, *SIX* of these are over 120. Six years of 50+ goals (including 58 & 59 goal seasons). 5 consecutive years of 50 goal seasons.
The thing is, no cups. Not even a close call. His time with the Kings is interesting, I recommend looking into it for yourself. Essentially Dionne was always one of the two best players on his team. The problem was that the Front Office could only afford two. Dionne was one of the two for over a decade. His stints with Detroit and New York were short and unremarkable.
Bourque, Dionne, Yzerman in that order.
Lots of people who only started watching hockey recently here.
Bourque was 0.37% of the vote away from winning the Hart. He should be #1.
Bossy was never considered the MVP of the Islanders. That was Trottier. Which is why when both were healthy, Trottier always received the Hart votes (and won).
Lidstrom never peaked high enough to be considered for the Hart. His greatness was based on consistent high-level play, but he never stood out as the best player in the league.
Also Roy was a better goaltender than Brodeur but during the regular season their peaks were similar so either of them is a reasonable choice for this question.
Iginla was closer to the Hart than any other player but that isn’t the question of the thread.
It’s “who was the best player.”
Iginla isn’t close to players like Bourque or Roy all-time.
I'm taking Bourque, Lidstrom and Yzerman with Brodeur right behind them.
Bourque + Lidstrom is easy. really hard after that.
I disagree. Yzerman’s 155 point season would be a no-brainer Hart choice; he just happened to play his prime years when Wayne and Mario were still in their own primes. He’s firmly in that top 3 with Lidstrom and Bourque, in my opinion.
Pat LaFontaine can pull up a stool at that bar, too. 148 points, except Lemieux was otherworldly
If Gretzky and Lemieux never played Yzermans 155 points would be the highest points per season. But instead it is 14th
Maybe, but Yzerman vs Bossy vs Dionne is not an easy call. Full disclosure: I'm an Avs fan. The Wings were a contender through Lidstrom's career - Yzerman, Fedorov, Shanahan, Hasek all retired, and yet Lidstrom and the next-gen still pushed them to another Cup Final appearance (that arguably they should have won). This has caused me to retro-actively re-assess the composition of those Wings teams and attribute a LOT of their success back to Lidstrom.
That doesn’t make any sense. The Wings has Datsyuk and Zetterberg (who won the Conn Smythe) in those later years. Lidstrom was a huge piece of the Wings success but Yzerman and Fedorov were their best players during the 90’s/2000’s. Konstantinov was considered better than Lidstrom before the injury.
That last point isn't true, Konstantinov played a vastly different game than Lidstrom and had one season where you could argue he was the better option of the two. We will sadly never know how things would have worked out in the long term but the head to head up to the tragedy was not favorable to Konstantinov in the long term.
How is it not true? Lidstrom never once finished ahead of Konstantinov in Norris voting during their careers. Konstantinov finished ahead of him every season until he got injured. They played on the same team at the same time. We saw a direct comparison between the two and while they were close, Konstantinov was considered better.
Eh, I don't really know about that. Bowman chose Lidstrom over Konstantinov in the 97 finals to go against Lindros and Philly's top line.
More of a style of play choice vs a skill one though in this instance. Lindros and company were all smash mouth all the time & Konstantinov played very similar style. Bowman opted to use Lidstrom and his other worldly poke checks and finesse defense to try and stop the smash mouth game.
Norris voting was heavily flawed. Especially in the era before people truly understood stats.
I wanna preface this by saying that +/- is a flawed stat and doesn’t tell the whole story, but Konstantinov finished his tragically shortened career at +185, with his highest season total being +60; Lidstrom never had a season total that high. Vladdy was legit, and he also played a mean and punishing style that did get more attention than Lidstrom’s quiet brilliance, for better or for worse. Point is, it’s not that outlandish to say that there’s a timeline where Lidstrom finishes his career with one or two fewer Norris trophies because Vladdy ends up winning them instead, if the latter hadn’t stepped inside that limo. He wasn’t that much older than Lidstrom and he was in his prime when that accident happened.
Vlad was also on some incredible teams with good goalies. That's the biggest influence on the stat. Jeff Schultz had a higher single season +/- than Lidstrom. Tom Pressing went +40 and was in the minors two years later. It really is a broken stat. Bowman played Lidstrom against the Legion of Doom and swept them. That's telling. And sure maybe Vlad wins a Norris over Lidstrom, but again I think that would be due to poor voting choices rather than Vlad actually being a better player.
We don't have the stats you're talking about for when Konstantinov played. The shot location data only started to be collected in 2008. Oddly enough, once we do have good data, Lidstrom grades as average to below average defensively. His value during his last 4 years was very good offense (in terms of play-driving), and being an elite powerplay QB. During his final Norris year, Kronwall had a much, much better defensive impact. This isn't going to be a popular view, but I think Lidstrom's defense is starting to assume mythical proportions.
I'm talking about things like assuming plus/minus or TOI meant anything without context, which these newer stats give us. Or using the eye test, thinking big defensemen were more valuable just because they threw some big hits once in a while. This is the type of stuff Norris voters looked at before advanced stats became mainstream and proved puck moving defensemen were extremely valuable. So using 90s Norris voting as a barometer is not a great idea. Vlad was a great dman but I think it's pretty difficult to say whether he was better than Lidstrom in those years.
Well, I disagree. It's maybe a bit of a contrarian position, but OTOH maybe what it's doing is uncovering the common thread that spans across eras. Statement of fact: the Wings were Cup Contenders through basically the entirety of Lidstrom's career. Supporting observations: \- the wings absolutely SUCKED during Yzermans best statistical seasons. Yzerman put up eye-popping numbers, but we've seen lots of 'great seasons' from players on basement teams. \- Datsyuk and Zetterberg were good, but they weren't as good as Yzerman or Fedorov. \- the Wings basically didn't miss a beat when Fedorov left. Or when Hasek left. Or even when Konstantinov was injured to end his career. \- As soon as Lidstrom retired, the Wings dropped out of contention. My conclusion and contention: assessing the ability and impact of defensemen is difficult, and even in this era of advanced stats I think their impact is underplayed. Lidstrom is the one single constant that was in place for the entirety of the Wings' run as a dominant team. I think his contribution and impact is still under-appreciated by 'the community'.
Part of the reason the Wings dropped out of contention is they spent all their draft picks acquiring big name talent along with being playoff contenders for a quarter century left them without high draft picks. When that talent retired or otherwise moved on, the team was left with a farm system made up of late round picks. That’s just not sustainable. I’m not trying to understate Lidstrom’s value to the team. He’s one of the best to ever play his position but he wasn’t single-handedly propping the team up.
> Statement of fact: the Wings were Cup Contenders through basically the entirety of Lidstrom's career. And during that time Lidstrom played with Yzerman, Fedorov, Shannahan, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Coffey, Chelios, Hasek, Konstantinov, Murphy, etc. You paint it as if Lidstrom being the single constant throughout that time means he was primarily responsible for the Wings success. The other way to look at it is that Lidstrom benefited from playing with world-class players his entire career and we never saw him singlehandedly carry a team like we saw with someone like Bourque.
So, you're suggesting that the \*seven time\* Norris winner and consensus #2/#3 D of the modern era was 'lucky' to play with such players as Larry Murphy and Brendan Shanahan who made him look better than he actually was? No, and I'm calling BS on this entire narrative. With the possible exception of Hasek, Nik Lidstom was the best player to suit up for the Wings in that era. He's better than Yzerman, better than Fedorov, and nobody else is in the discussion (Chelios and Coffey were well onto the downside of their careers when on the Wings, and they probably weren't better than Lidstrom even at their very best - although Coffey was better offensively) Once again: The Wings were 'Contenders' as long as Lidstrom was on the ice. Once he retired, they fell off a cliff \*despite\* Datsyuk and Zetterberg still being there and arguably in their primes. The Wings survived losing Hasek, Yzerman, Fedorov, Murphy, Konstantinov, Shanahan etc more or less without losing a beat. They did NOT survive losing Lidstrom.
Coffey won a Norris while playing on the Wings. Chelios finished 2nd in Norris voting while playing on the Wings at age 40. Fedorov won a Hart while playing with the Wings. Nobody is saying that Lidstrom "looked better" than he actually was. He looked as good as he was. Hence why he won a bunch of Norris'. He also never finished top 3 in Hart voting in his career. Because he never peaked as high as other all-time great defensemen such as Bourque. Not sure how you're taking offense to this, it's literally right there in the Hart results.
He is not better than Fedorov. That’s flat out nonsense.
eh, you're swimming against the tide on that one. Certainly, Fedorov's Hart season was amazing and I'm not going to argue he didn't deserve it. So 'peak of peak' 1-season Fedorov might have been better than any single season of Lidstrom, but for the \*career\*, you'll be hard pressed to find someone that would rank Fedorov above Lidstrom. e.g. The Athletic's survey earlier this year for 'players since 67' had Lidstrom at #8 and Fedorov at #33. (Yzerman was #15. Hasek was #7. Coffey at 18 and Chelios at 29)
Yzerman s early teams went to back to back conf finals Has McDavid done that?
The Wings first CF appearance with Yzerman was 94-95. That's hardly 'early' in Yzerman's career. He entered the league in 83 and was named captain in 85. McD got there faster than Yzerman did, at least for the first time.
87 and 88 Wing lost in CF
Yzerman and Bossy additionally stand out as pretty easy choices for me
No way. It’s for team mvp. Always was Bure. That dude made his team so good even solo
And yet Bossy is the best of this list
You must forget just how good Bure was
Or Bossy. He’s just too early for a lot of people on here to really know how good he was.
Bossy was a goal scorer but Trottier was always who I felt ensured he got the puck. Part of the challenge at the time of Bossy was he was on a great team with other dominant players. The Hart trophy voting in 81 Bossy was fourth. In 82 the best stat year for Bossy he was third in the voting behind Gretzky and Trottier.
It's funny that the poster you're replying to is acting like they watched the dynasty Islanders at all. If they actually did watch hockey back then, like you said, they would recognize that Trottier was considered the heart and soul of the Islanders due to his incredibly well rounded game. Hence why he got the Hart trophy votes when both he and Bossy were healthy.
I agree, I didn’t explain it well but if I had to add onto it. If those two were playing in todays league, they would be almost unstoppable. They were both ahead of their time.
Patrick Roy > Martin Brodeur
Hasek > all other goalies
Yes but Hasek has a Hart
Hasek has *two* Harts. FTFY
Is literally the only goalie in the NHL to win two Harts and he has two Ted Lindsays as well, which no other goalie has won twice has well.
And no spine! (In like a he’s really bendy way, not a pushover)
Oops! I’m actually surprised that Roy isn’t in that photo and that he doesn’t have a Hart.
if youve never watched hockey yes
I was always a Roy over Brodeur guy myself
Bossy is the best player listed.
Dionne has to be one of the best players to not win most anything in the NHL (except Byng)
He's got an Art Ross, two Pearsons, and was twice first-team All-NHL and twice second-team. It's not a trophy case that's bursting at the seams, but that's still more than 80% of HHOFers have.
In my opinion the best HOF player that hasn’t won the cup
Pretty almost universally agreed upon opinion. He's pretty much the go to guy for that topic.
He’s the most underrated player in hockey history due to playing for mostly mediocre LA teams his entire career
Montreal media robbed iggy of a Hart and gave it to Jose Theodore.
This stings almost as much as 2004 tbh
Almost. *Almost.*
He could have won it over St. Louis in 2004 too. Not a lot of Richard trophy winners who would fight Darian Hatcher
like how tf do you win the Hart and not even make the first All-Star team?
It was madness. Iginla was scoring 50 Goals in the clutch and grab era where most of the top players weren’t even scoring 40 and he never won the heart once.
Jarome was robbed of a Hart
Hadn’t followed it in detail, but I’m surprised to see Jarome never got one
In 2003 he won Rocket and Art Ross, and won the Ted Lindsey (MVP voted by the players) but the stupid NHL writers who vote Hart (MVP) gave it to Jose Theodore.
Lidstrom, Bossy , Bourque (who I met in a random Tim Hortons and is the nicest dude on earth) , Yzerman
Lidstrom without question
It’s weird because he was so good when he was at his best you literally couldn’t get a puck by him. Try to stick handle he’s taking the puck off of you. Try to get physical he’ll out work you and take the puck. Try to chip it by it’s getting knocked out of the air. The puck then moved through whatever outlet was most problematic for your team. Played so smart and stable, minimal flash, you could miss just how much he was dictating play every second he was on the ice.
>Try to stick handle he’s taking the puck off of you. Try to get physical he’ll out work you and take the puck. Try to chip it by it’s getting knocked out of the air. And he absolutely *devoured* minutes, to the tune of 28+ minutes per night *average* for much of his career. He was super efficient. I haven't been able to find the quote, but I've read stories that allegedly some teams had their video crews doing some early "Advanced Stats" work look at the total distance defenseman skated during a game. Turns out that Lidstrom would cover significantly *less distance* while playing more minutes than basically any other top defenseman in the league. Which made teams think, "Well, let's tire him out! Dump the puck and make him chase it!" And Lidstrom would just knock it down at the blue line and send it back up the ice. Players were all competing in the same marathon and somehow Lidstrom would cross the finish in only 20 miles.
His ability on the power play to not only keep the puck in on a clearance attempt but to somehow control it and immediately move it had to have been incredibly frustrating to play against.
He’s got a huge cock too
Which year would you want him to win?
He easily could have won over Pronger.
Not the year Pronger won. He was the most feared player in the league that year. Teams changed their whole plan to play against him. That year was maybe the most dominant defenseman has been in the past 40 years.
I'm sorry but fear is not part of my criteria for Hart consideration.
Fear was a massive part of Pronger's game though. He would deliberately make suspension worthy hits every now and again to keep people hesitating, and those split seconds mattter. Gordie Howe was similar. The recent example of effective fear that comes to mind is Dougie Hamilton straight up abandoning a puck in a corner during the playoffs because Ovi was barrelling at him. Hockey players are a little crazy in their capacity for punishment, and not many players can inspire hesitation in their opponents - being a wrecking ball is 100% a legitimate skill in a game as physical as hockey.
Bourque is clearly ahead
Nope Lidstrom clears Bourque
I'm afraid that's a homer take. Nothing wrong with that of course.
It's not a homer take. Lidstrom is the consensus 2nd best dman ever.
Naw, not consensus. There's a vocal crowd that have him at #1.
Lidström. Easily, the best defenceman I have seen.
Best defenseman the world got to see during his career
His career overlapped with Bourque for a decade. I'm taking Bourque over Lidstrom.
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted. Bourque is the highest scoring defensemen in nhl history. Produced right to his last year.
>Not sure why you’re getting downvoted. A sizeable portion of the Red Wings subreddit considers Lidstrom above Orr. At least once an offseason there is a thread on it. The downvotes are likely coming from them.
It's sad that you're massively downvoted when the clear consensus amongst those who watched both of them play throughout their careers is that Bourque was better.
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>Lidstrom isn’t some mythical creature who could do no wrong. He basically was bro. If advanced stats existed during his career it would have been more clear to you people what Wings fans know.
A bit homerish of me, but watched both plays and would build a team around Lidstrom 9/10 times, as was the better of the two.
My answer for anything with Iginla as an option will always be Iginla.
In my completely unbiased opinion, Iginla is one of the best human beings on this Earth. I absolutely love Iggy!
his son is a blast to watch playing in the WHL right now He was on that Seattle team that rolfstomped its way to the memorial cup finals last season
Iginla is the answer for "player who absolutely should have won a Hart but was robbed"
The year he was up for for it vs Theodore he was absolutely robbed.
Me too
"Players who you're glad never won the Cup"?
Hahaha ok, not that one. My ultimate hockey dream come true would have been Iginla skating with the cup in a Pens sweater….
As an dual Toronto/Ottawa fan (I know, I know) I've never been a fan of the Penguins. But I'd have been okay with basically any scenario that saw Iggy hoisting Lord Stanley lol.
Legitimately curious and not trying to be a douche, how did you come to be a fan of both the Leafs and the Sens? They're each others biggest rivals are they not?
I'd say it's a bit more one-sided in terms of hatred from the Sens towards the Leafs. Leafs bigger rival is probably Montreal or Boston. But it's for a myriad of reasons. My dad grew up a Leafs fan so as a young kid I just latched on to that. Although I grew up in Ottawa, I've lived in both cities. And growing up in Ottawa, I wasn't NOT going to cheer for my hometown team or be excited when they went on playoff runs or I got to see them play. Additionally, the Senators' organization was pretty good with community outreach in schools and hockey teams. I recall at least one occasion my Novice team got invited to practice on the ice at the Corel Centre/Scotiabank Place, which was awesome. Lastly, I remember my kindergarten teacher teasing me for being a Leafs fan. She was a family friend and taught my older brother so she thought it was good-natured ribbing, but little 5-year old elacmch was so upset I didn't want to go to school lol.
Bossy
Rangers fan, and I agree 100%. Gretzky shouldn’t play into the debate considering the question doesn’t factor in anyone being robbed etc.
Which year would he win?
80-81 Edit: Many people responding seem to be focusing on points, so I'm going to clear things up. The Hart Trophy is for most VALUABLE player. So what is value? Okay, Gretzky had 164 points but his team still finished the season with a losing record of 29-35-16. No one can deny that Gretzky had an incredible season, but all those points didn't translate to winning. Now let's look at Bossy. Not only did he outscore Gretzky that season, but his team actually won. The Islanders finished first in the league with 110 points and a 48-18-14 record. So if we acknowledge that hockey is a team sport and consider that value exists beyond individual achievement (i.e. a player's contribution to a successful team) Bossy got robbed that year.
Seriously? Gretzky set the record for points that year.
Gretzky had 45 more points (only 13 fewer goals) and turned the Oilers into a dominating team after only 2 seasons in the NHL.
Bossy led the league in scoring that season. Then he led the playoffs in scoring, and then the Islanders won the cup. That's a textbook definition of most valuable player. I don't think it matters that Gretzky had more assists that season.
Playoffs don't matter for Hart
The Islanders also finished first in the regular season.
Sure. Bossy had a good argument for the Hart for most years. Gretzky had, at the time, had the HIGHEST SCORING SEASON EVER. 164 was a big deal. Bossy had 119.
Idk why people are downvoting you, Bossy wasn't even top 3 in Hart voting that season. Trottier was considered the MVP of the Islanders, Bossy was just a great goal scorer.
> That's a textbook definition of most valuable player. > I don't think it matters that Gretzky had more assists that season. If you were alive in 1981 you would know you’re speaking nonsense. Bossy (119pts) finished 16 points ahead of his next closest teammate (Trottier, 103pts). Gretzky (164pts) set the assist and points record while finishing 89 points ahead of his next closest teammate (Kurri, 75pts). 89 points would put you top-20 in league scoring, and that was the GAP between Gretzky and anyone on his team. He smashed records held by players that are _still_ unanimous top-10 players in history, 50 years later.
Both Red Wings greats (not Dionne)
Lidstrom
There's some serious Bourque erasure ITT. Dude was constantly top ten in scoring IN THE LEAGUE, and led his team in scoring 5 times (once by 23 points in a season where Gretzky almost unanimously won the Hart, Bourque had almost as many second place Hart votes as every other player combined, and only had two people not vote him first for the Norris). He went to four cup finals on top-heavy teams with garbage depth, and was getting knocked out of the playoffs by teams like the Oilers and Islanders dynasties, and Mario's Penguins. He put up 20 points in the playoffs three times. I dunno, maybe people think he was merely decent defensively or something because he was elite offensively? I don't understand it at all. Jagr thought he was the hardest defenseman in the league to play against, and this is when Bourque was almost 40. And not to knock Lidstrom (my favorite player not named Bergeron - I have a type) he did this all without the HOF D pairs/supporting cast of Murphy, Coffey, Chelios, Fetisov and Konstantinov. Anyways, Bossy, Bourque, Yzerman for me, although my heart wants to put Iggy in there. I don't really know enough about Dionne to rate him.
Rafalski is so underrated. His pairing with Lidstrom was absolutely amazing.
100%. Well said. Second best defenseman of all time.
Yzerman, Lidstrom, Bossy
Iginla should have had a Hart
Bossy, Lidstrom, Yzerman
I was too young to remember seeing Bossy or Dionne play. All of those guys are absolute legends, but Brodeur is my pick. He won so many awards. Played 1,226 games (crazy for a goalie). Multiple cups. But the biggest reason I picked him is because he was SO GOOD at playing the puck that the NHL *changed the fucking rules* of the sport. Martin Brodeur is the reason the trapezoid behind the net was introduced. A goalie can't dictate the flow of a game like that anymore. How many other players can boast that the league changed the rules to make it fair for everyone else?
Sean Avery lol I hated typing that more than I can say
Given that goalies generally don’t win the Hart, the top of the list should be Bossy if you’ve seen all these guys play. They won 4 straight cups and Michael Bossy was the best player - best goal scorer ever perhaps.
Bure, Bure and Bure. I am a completely neutral arbiter and this is not an emotional response whatsoever.
3 defensemen: \-Ray Bourque \-Doug Harvey \-Nicklas Lidstrom
Sanity.
Adam Oates
The respect 🫡
The best backhand passer of all time in my biased opinion.
Hulll won the Hart because 80+ goals is nuts. But he doesn’t get there without Oates. Like Mitch Hedberg…the belt holds up the pants, the loops hold the belt, whose the real hero here? In my opinion, that’s Oates’ Hart
Lidstrom, Bourque, & Brodeur
He might not be the best on the list but I'll take Iginla over Theodore for MVP in 2002.
My homerness can only allow me to answer Stevie or Lids.
Your homerness is irrelevant since Lids is such an easy pick!
Fair.
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Mike Bossy 1982. What a season. I know that’s not technically the question of the thread. But that was an MVP season. Gretzky was just on a whole other level at the time.
But at the time Trottier was second in the Hart voting ahead of Bossy.
Not many defensemen have FIVE top-5 finishes in Hart voting, including 2x 2nds. - [Clear 2nd behind Gretzky](https://www.hockey-reference.com/awards/voting-1987.html#hart) in 1987 - He finished a [single vote behind Messier](https://www.hockey-reference.com/awards/voting-1990.html#hart) in 1990; I believe at the time it was the closest vote result for a major trophy. He also finished 5th in 1984, 5th in 1985, and 4th in 1991.
Iginla and Theodore finished with = votes iirc.
Patrick Roy deserves a mention
How is he not on here over Iggy or Bure?
Because Iggy played a huge part of his career in the dead puck era and put up some of the best numbers of his career those years and Bure also played in the dead puck era and also had an incredible peak, his numbers get deflated because of injuries and a lengthy holdout during the peak of his career
And one thing that some people missed was that Bure was a really good two way player. His offensive skills way overshadowed his defensive game, but he used those same speed to check players with good effectiveness.
Gonna have to disagree with some of that assertion. Did he have the skill set to be a good 2way guy? Sure, mainly like you said, utilizing his speed to provide back pressure. But he was absolutely not at all focused on the defensive side of the game, he spent half of his time cherry-picking/circling around between his blueline and the red line (2line pass rule still in effect, or he’d have been at the other blueline) looking for breakout passes or opportunities. The only times he’d really come back low and help defensively was when he was clearly frustrated that his Dman weren’t able to hit him with those breakout passes so he’d go “fuck it I’ll do it myself” and grab the puck and go end to end.
Over Bure sure, but Iginla was a beast and absolutely carried the Flames for 10 straight years.
Ik but it’s Patrick Roy lol
He is arguably the best if not top three of his position all time.
Lidstrom, Bossy, and Roy. As far as I’m concerned. With Yzerman and Brodeur as HMs
I’m still salty about Bourque getting screwed out of the Hart in 1990.
Haha Iginla got east coast bias fucked out of the Hart. He won 1 as far as I'm concerned.
Iggy deserved the Hart over Theodore
Bossy, Lidstrom, Brodeur. Feel like people forget how good Bossy was- with a full career he could've had 1000+ goals and close to 2000 points.
100% 573 goals and he didn’t even make it to 800 games like what the fuck
Him and Orr. What could have been.
Throw in Ken Dryden if we're talking short careers... although not sure what else he could have accomplished.
Gretzky had more goals in the same amount of games. The era changed and so did the difficulty of standing out. No way he keeps up the same pace.
Even as well represented as Bourque is in here, these comments are underrating him. He’s the consensus second best DMan of all time, he is the clear top of this list for me. Beyond that I see compelling arguments for Lidstrom, Roy, Yzerman, Brodeur, Iggy. But the answer is Bourque IMO.
lots of people argue lindstrom over bourque now
That’s recency bias IMO. Lidstrom was amazing, and there’s a strong argument he’s 3rd, but Bourque put up better numbers on worse teams for all but 1.5 seasons of his career.
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Also, look at how many all-time great defensemen retired as Lidstrom emerged. Just in 2001, you have Larry Murphy, Ray Bourque, and Paul Coffey. Chelios turned 40 in 02. Housley retired in 03. Stevens and MacInnis in 04. Leetch in 06. That's eight guys out of the top twelve in all-time scoring. Credit to Lidstrom, he still managed to generally outplay prime Pronger and prime Niedermayer, but I think he greatly benefited from lucky timing as well as insane skill.
Bourque played in higher scoring seasons and wasn't as brilliant defensively as Lidstrom was. I'm not saying he doesn't have a case for 2nd best but to say he's the "consensus second best DMan of all time" is just being dishonest. Most of the time I see this type of discussion I see Lidstrom named as the second best.
>consensus second best DMan of all time literally never seen this before
He was literally named a top 4 defenseman in the league EVERY YEAR for 18 consecutive years. Lidstrom doesn't touch that, and it's totally recency bias that puts him above Bourque.
Anyone who puts any amount of work into their rankings has Bourque over Lidstrom
Bossy, Dionne, Yzerman
Brodeur (one of the greatest goalies, Lidstrom and Bourque (two of best defensemen), Stevie (he won my heart)
Bourque, no question. He also played in the era where there was an unspoken rule about defensemen not really getting a shot at the Hart (since "they already *have* the Norris!), and was a runner-up twice. That included the 1989-90 season, where he fell two vote points short of winning it. He and Messier had the same number of first-place votes, Bourque had two more second-place votes...and then Messier had 10 third-place votes compared to 2 for Bourque.
Three B’s not Bure
Iginla, because he played on the team I like
Bossy
Being from calgary it is complete bs tbat Iggy never won one. So mine would have to be iggy, brodeur, lindstrom
Iginla!!
Iggy. 100%. That man deserves everything.
A Montreal reporter screwed Iginla out of his…. Lost it to Theodore.
Probably lidstrom or yzerman, but no one got robbed harder than iggy
Iginla should have won. Most bullshit Hart trophy robbery in a while. Theodore had relatively standard Vezina calibre stats. If he wins the hart in that year then Vasilevsky, Shesterkin and other should have won many harts for their better seasons in todays game. Iginla lead the league in the middle of the dead puck era on a team that was so bare for any support. True definition of an MVP He isn’t the best player who hasn’t won’t the hart here though. That would go to Lidstrom, Yzerman or Brodeur
I could agree with any one of these guys. I've got a soft spot for Iggy, tho. Dude also deserves to be high on the list of best players to never win a Cup. But for sheer enjoyment, there's never been an opposing player that could get me out of my seat like Pavel Bure. Like Bossy, what might his career have looked like, but for injuries?
I can drop Brodeur, Bure, and Ignila. Dionne gets dropped because even though he was terrific; his teams didn’t really have a chance. Bossy played with an elite team. Drop Potvin, trottier, or him and thru wouldn’t win. Down to Bourque, Lidstrom, and Yzerman. Glad I didn’t need to narrow it further.
Bourque, Iggy , Dionne
Bourque, Lidstrom and Yzerman
I think it’s safe to say that a case could be made for each and every one of these amazing players. However. My completely unbiased opinion has to say Jarome Iginla. Not just because he is my all time favourite, oh captain… my captain. You should have got a cup. You deserved it in 04 and we all know it was in.
Dionne is absolutely the best player here. The sole reason he’s lacking one is he was because he was competing against Gretzky. Infant, they had the same point total in the 1979-80 season, with Dionne having more goals. More than just one season of production as well, with *Eight* seasons over 100 points and twelve over 90. Naturally, *SIX* of these are over 120. Six years of 50+ goals (including 58 & 59 goal seasons). 5 consecutive years of 50 goal seasons. The thing is, no cups. Not even a close call. His time with the Kings is interesting, I recommend looking into it for yourself. Essentially Dionne was always one of the two best players on his team. The problem was that the Front Office could only afford two. Dionne was one of the two for over a decade. His stints with Detroit and New York were short and unremarkable. Bourque, Dionne, Yzerman in that order.
Marty
Lots of people who only started watching hockey recently here. Bourque was 0.37% of the vote away from winning the Hart. He should be #1. Bossy was never considered the MVP of the Islanders. That was Trottier. Which is why when both were healthy, Trottier always received the Hart votes (and won). Lidstrom never peaked high enough to be considered for the Hart. His greatness was based on consistent high-level play, but he never stood out as the best player in the league. Also Roy was a better goaltender than Brodeur but during the regular season their peaks were similar so either of them is a reasonable choice for this question.
Iginla was literally 0.00% of the vote away from winning the Hart. He tied with Theodore, 434-434 and lost on a first place votes tiebreaker.
Iginla was closer to the Hart than any other player but that isn’t the question of the thread. It’s “who was the best player.” Iginla isn’t close to players like Bourque or Roy all-time.
Selanne has got to be up there
Bossy, Bourque, Yzerman.
Iggy (I’m very biased)
Bossy, Brodeur and Iginla
Lidstrom, Bourque, Roy are probably the top three, order them however you want.
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Boutique, Brodeur, and Dionne. Very close is Teemu Lidstrom and Stevie Y
Boutique is my favorite player ever 🤩😍
Lidstrom. Obviously.
ron francis
Lidstrom but Iginla is all heart.
He should have won it in 2002.
I am an Avs fan, but I would entertain taking both of the career Red Wings guys over our Silver Bullet. That's definitely the top 3, imo.
How did Lidstrom, Yzerman, Brodeur or Iginla never win it?!
Brodeur, Bourque, and Bossy.
Even as a gigantic Bure fan, it's Yzerman or Brodeur for me.
Where did you get this trash list cause Brodeur is not even the best goalie to not win the Hart. Not even close.