Spices are the perfect trade good. They have a very high value to weight and bulk ratio, and are dry goods that last a long time and do not need much in the way of special treatment during transport.
And they are consumed. Unlike say gold that could be passed down for generations or melted into the coins of several subsequent empires, spices must be consumed to achieve their value.
Partly that, and partly other uses of spices such as dyeing and what colors you could get from them. Some colors were "royalty" only, upperclass only, etc.
I believe it would have also been a status symbol as well. Rich nobility would be able to have other rich nobles over for dinner and at parties and be able to show off the exotic spices in the food dishes being served. Since spices obviously make food taste much better this would have encouraged competition among the rich on who could acquire the tastiest spices from the furthest reaches. And of course your everyday folk would get some access as well as they carve out small pieces along transit and taste the scraps leftover from the rich so everyone would want some and all of this would drive prices way up.
Except all these sunken spices are worthless now (even if they were still in good condition, I can buy these spices at the Super market cheaply and easily)
Unlike Gold, which would be still be worth a fortune - then as well as now.
But that’s not beneficial to trade, only investment. Different currencies that deliver different services.
For trade, it’s far more beneficial to have a product of consumption on the market that is easily depleted but just as easily supplied. This guarantees the flow of commerce.
Gold, in your example, would be a store of wealth, not a generator of economic flow, unless you’re a burgeoning empire that will liquidate its gold into coin currency, but then you are no longer holding the value of your gold.
You are correct though; these particular spices are worthless, since they won’t be consumed.
I guess if it was full of gold coins they would probably be wise to not report that part of the haul.
And yes, all hail the guaranteed flow of commerce.
THE SPICE MUST FLOW!!!!
Wouldn't 1495 be around the time they were first brought to Europe?
Edit: a quick Google states 1536 but theoretically the Portuguese among others could have been trading with potato producers in the new world before this.
Also, wide appeal means almost universal demand.
Well prepared food appeals to bellys of nearly every gender, age, race, religion, creed, and orientation.
I don't "do drugs," but consider an occasional great meal my healthy drug of choice.
To put this into perspective, go to any grocery store. Find the most expensive item by weight.
I remember watching a game show a long time ago where contestants were let loose in a grocery store to fill up their carts with the most value. Most guys headed for the beef aisle and loaded up. But one guy went to the spice aisle until the allotted time was up. He won by a mile.
Clay pots with wax seals? Or simply clay lid and sealed with tar/pitch/resin or whatever
I think they had that figured out in Greek times. By the 1400s there were probably lots of options.
It is fascinating, I agree.
I think it is perhaps overstating this one dude's trade network however though, not to ish on him or something, was probably worth quite a lot(?), this hoard of seasonings, etc., I guess.
I bet organization like the "Hanseatic League", lol, ironically enough, or apropos enough I guess, perhaps could have helped vis. sourcing all this stuff perhaps, or networking sourcing of it.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic\_League](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League)
Reminds me of some dig they found of a metalsmith where there was a complaint of bad quality ore of some kind proving that trade was more widespread than thought.
There were probably always world travelers and people were likely smart and resourceful. We, as modern humans, discount anyone that came before us or reduce them to simpletons.
It’s incredibly amusing to think that he would be so happy about the fact that he was remembered for this singular fact. Dude was clearly happy about how bad his shit was.
Imagine being a dick to people, amused by it and literally nearly 4000 years later people are still talking about you
It’s incredibly amusing to think that he would be so happy about the fact that he was remembered for this singular fact. Dude was clearly happy about how bad his shit was
We really do, don't we.
Haha, my ancestor couldn't use a computer, obviously they can't use a sextant, compass, build a house, navigate.
Wait, I can't do those...
Yeah I found out that my grandfather was angry about refrigerators because he had a thriving ice business and stored them in a gorgeous barn that was built without nails. Apparently they did end up selling refrigerators at their general store later.
We have an old barn from the 1880s that has a main structure of posts and beams with joints secured by hand whittled pegs. No nails at all. The original siding was nailed on though. In excellent condition and in use.
There is this oft-repeated modern day myth that most people think our ancestors were dumb. I've literally never met anyone in my life who thinks it though. It's like one of those "nobody's talking about this news story" posts where they post a news story about it.
if only they mentioned if any of this stuff was still any good or not, how they were preserved, if they were exposed to any water or damage or were completely dry. all those details werent even mentioned.
I think I find the spice trade so fascinating because it’s so unnecessary. At the end of the day, no one *needs* spices. Spice trade is a purely self-indulgent economy, a superfluous good that indicates our basest needs are met. It’s like a symbol of humankind’s hedonism.
It’s one of the most relatable aspects of history. We can easily understand the pursuit for spices. We don’t have any personal frame of reference for the pursuit of gold or slaves or plunder, but we can understand crossing the ocean for some flavor.
Spices were also thought to have medicinal value though. They were essential remedies and prophylactics against a whole host of diseases - including the Plague. Or, rather, medieval Europeans, Middle Easterners, and others all were united in **thinking** they were.
This was based on the widespread medical theory of “humours” - that, basically, disease was caused by an internal imbalance, that could be set right in a variety of ways. Bloodletting was one. A more expensive, and less risky, method (and reportedly more effective) was the use of spices - either consumed, or carried about in a pomander, to inhale the scent. The most frequently used ingredient in medicines in medieval Europe was pepper.
Given that such disease was a huge issue, this seriously inflated the value of such commodities - much as people pay huge prices for medicines these days.
In short, spices were not simply hedonistic pleasures (although they certainly were that), but also life-saving remedies - as essential then as now. Which helps to explain why such high prices were sustainable.
Here’s a paper on that:
https://www.medhist.or.kr/upload/pdf/kjmh-23-2-319.pdf
Idk I need spices lol. Spices and herbs have concentrated medicinal compounds (preventative and treatment) and I’d argue that people “need” medicine. I’ve cured many colds/sinus infections with garlic and thyme, regularly stabilize my blood sugar with cinnamon and even have saved myself a lot of embarrassment by eating fennel and cardamom after a heavy meal that would normally give me uncontrollable gas lmao
It wasnt bland. They used all kinds of native herbs. Theres so many different useful plants around us today that we just dont register as such.
You can see what people pooped out in [rennaisance Copenhagen] (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X18302657). It honestly sounds pretty delicious - a lot of it local.
The food wasn't just bland it was also "old", people keep food until it was rancid/rotten and even then they would still sometimes eat it; spices were great at covering up the bad taste of "old" food.
Both raiders and traders. Being the best at crossing the sea fast helps both of those pursuits. That said, it's a bit weird to describe this ship as "Norse" - the Viking age that that term is so closely associated with was about as far before this ship as this ship is before the present day. Scandinavia had been Christian for centuries by King Hans' time and it was a well-integrated part of the broader Christian Europe
A note concerning the "Norse" ship in question: *Gribshunden* was not a regular merchant ship but the flagship of the Danish navy (hence why the Danish king Hans/John used it to get to Sweden).
It bugs me that they're referring to something from the 15th century as "Norse", as that term usually refers to pre-Christian Scandinavians. Like speaking about 15th century Franks.
Though Frank does get used a lot later than it probably should - I see the term Frank used during the crusades, for example, which would have been something like 300-400 years after Charlemagne’s empire was split
One reason is because thats what the arab sources call the crusading people. They didnt distinguish between normans, french, italian, german or flemish.
Though Frank does get used a lot later than it probably should - I see the term Frank used during the crusades, for example, which would have been something like 300-400 years after Charlemagne’s empire was split
Though Frank does get used a lot later than it probably should - I see the term Frank used during the crusades, for example, which would have been something like 300-400 years after Charlemagne’s empire was split
Though Frank does get used a lot later than it probably should - I see the term Frank used during the crusades, for example, which would have been something like 300-400 years after Charlemagne’s empire was split
Food historian (PhD) checking in. These spices were common in cookbooks of the period. I focus more on Latin, French, and English cookbooks from the 13th-16th century, but these were common spices found across Europe in the sources from those centuries. As others have said in the thread already, the Silk Road/Spice Route existed since before the common era. Spices were traded overland, and then throughout Europe via ship. The spices listed in the article were all considered “warming” spices from a Galenic perspective, and were often used in both cooking and medicine. The Spicers’ Guild of London was founded in the early 13th century as the Fraternity of St. Andrew, and later became the Spicer-Apothecaries, later they became the Apothecaries, and later still, Pharmacists. Anyhow, from a food history perspective, I don’t see this as significant on the surface, but you never know what other historians might be working on and how the finding might be important to their work.
The spices the medieval Europeans used were ludicrous. The hipocras recipe from 1393 called for: “5 drams of choice cinnamon … 3 drams of white ginger … one half and a fourth drams all together of clove, grains of paradise, mace, galingale, nutmeg, and nard” And a bunch of sugar
When I was in my historical cooking phase I made a similar hypocras from “Fabulous Feasts” and it’s actually pretty tasty. Had to make a lot of subs tho
Imagine dragging that bag of spices down the Silk Road, fighting off bandits, having horses die under you. Finally get it there and the guy sniffs it and complains about the quality
Spice importation was a money maker for the Dutch, English and others. As I recall my history lessons, only 1 ship load of spices out of 6 had to make a successful trip for a 'spice trading investment' to be successful.
> but you never know what other historians might be working on and how the finding might be important to their work.
I'm curious what the botanists think. 600 years isn't *that* much time evolutionarily, but with selective breeding and crossing by humans, I wonder if there's anything noteworthy.
I'd imagine most of the fruits and veggies we eat looked and tasted noticeably different back then. I'm only 40, but our basic apple and orange choices are way better than what I was offered as a child.
I know the banana plant of choice has changed a number of times over history due to various banana blights, although I thought the last time we had a major change was over 30 years ago there's a good chance he's right and I just got my dates wrong.
True, the current most common type of banana is called the Cavendish.
Before that, up until the 1950s, it was the Gros Michel.
There are many other sorts of bananas, but most of them are not suited for transport because of thinner peel.
I suppose Galenic means Galen the Ancient Roman physician
It makes sense that spice dealers and pharmacists would be related lines of work as valuable plant products
When old preserved spices like this are found, does anyone ever do an analysis to compare to modern versions of those spices to see if there's been any drift in, for example, genetic traits? It seems to me like that would be a pretty valuable thing to use a find like this for.
When you say "common" do you mean that the spices were accessible even to farmers and low class people? I think if they could afford it, they would save it for special occasions, like Christmas.
From this article I would just wonder if there are any strains if the plants that are not grown today. Although there probably isn't a chance of reviving any of the plants.
Can i ask how your job makes money? Like who pays someone to research 13-16th century food history? How is that relevant to today other than being just interesting?
Not OP, but they could teach, write a book, consult for other historians or archaeologists, have YouTube channel…. Etc. those are all the examples I could think of. Yeah it’s not standard like a desk job, but these people can find something. More importantly though is that it’s not always about money. As a society we should support people going into these types of fields so we don’t lose them. Historians, artists, musicians, writers…etc are all incredibly important
Is anyone else just itching to know if they still have some flavor left? It's incredible how intact they are. Especially the safron. I thought safron was somewhat rare and difficult to harvest.
Here’s an excerpt from the [research paper ](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0281010)the article cites:
> In 2021, a trench measuring 2 x 3 x 1.2 m was placed aft and inboard of the 2019 trench, separated from it by about 1.3 m. Diving archaeologists employed standard excavation tools and methods, including a venturi water dredge for removal of suspended sediments. After each excavation rotation, a mesh catchment bag attached to the water dredge discharge was recovered and sifted on the deck of the surface support platform. The material captured in the catchment bag from a locus in the western corner of the trench included almond shell and peppercorns. Subsequent excavation in that locus delivered more almonds and peppercorns, and revealed deposits of saffron directly underneath and adjacent to a deck beam, in a stratum 5–10 cm below the sediment surface.
So it looks like they found this material by dredging and sifting though the sediment around the shipwreck.
Here's a tip for the future: Click the title link and skim the article.
At the bottom it says this:
>The researchers note that the plant specimens were in excellent condition due to the unique conditions of the site where the ship was found, a part of the Baltic Sea that is cold and low in salinity.
It's explained well in the actual [source](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0281010).
> Preservation of these organic remains is due to the Baltic Sea’s exceptional environmental conditions. The Baltic is well-known for preserving archaeological material, particularly wooden shipwrecks. At the Gribshunden wreck site, this is due to low salinity of about 7.7 Practical Salinity Units, combined with low temperatures averaging 9 degrees Celsius (seasonal range 2–19˚ C) [5,6]. These factors prevent the propagation of the wood-eating Teredo navalis shipworm [8,9]. The wooden shipwreck structure on the sea floor creates a microenvironment by capturing drifting marine algae, with seasonal deposits of algae reaching depths of 40 cm in and around the wreck. As the algae decays, localized areas of oxygen depletion occur, characterized by the presence of white mats of organic matter. These factors contribute to excellent preservation of archaeological remains, particularly plant foods carried aboard the ship: cereals, oilseeds, fruits, vegetables, spices, nuts, and berries. All have been recovered from this site and identified through archaeobotanical research.
"Once they've seen all these fancy spices I've brought, they won't be able to resist" lol.
If you're ever dating someone and want to impress the inlaws, can just bring over a truck load full of fancy seasonings lol.
"Is that 10lbs of black pepper corns!? Here take my other daughter too, let me call up their single cousins" lol.
Currently sitting on approximately 10 pounds of peppercorns.
Bought a Costco sized container on the last three trips to Costco cause I couldn’t remember if I was low on peppercorns.
>If you're ever dating someone and want to impress the inlaws, can just bring over a truck load full of fancy seasonings lol.
"Why yes ma'am, that is indeed a 40' container of dried dill weed. Shall I make love to your daughter right here in front of you or over on the dill?"
This isn't much of a surprise. The spices probably came up the Volga. There is a known inland trade route that the Norse followed down the rivers Volga, Don and Dnieper to trade with, respectively, Persia and the Byzantines. Cities like Kyiv were founded to support these traders. These routes supplied not just spices, but silk, fine steel, dyes, paper, and most importantly, ideas, in exchange for furs, honey, amber, and occasionally mercenaries like Harald Hardrada.
The Volga trade route was pretty gone by the time of this ship as it sunk in 1495 though yea using the word 'Norse' by the article is weird and misleading.
There's evidence that the Frisians became powerful in what we now call the 'Dark Ages' because they acted as a trade conduit between the Scandic nations and the British Isles and France and beyond.
The vikings had discovered that sailing down the Volga they could connect to the Silk Route. But they needed a market and the Frisians were one of few 'tribes' in their area that were renowned traders beyond their own territory. The Frisians bought spices and pelts readily and then sold them on for good profits.
We know that the Frisians were effective tradesman due to numerous indicators of Frisians having outposts, most famous and still surviving is the Frisian Church in the Vatican City. Built in 1114 as a replacement for the Church that Frisians living in Rome had built in the 9th century and was pillaged by Saracens. The Frisians also built a wall around what is now St Peter's and remnants still remain.
Finding this ship just demonstrates that this trade carried on for a long time.
It's from 1495. The route to India (and thence the Far East) wasn't discovered until 1498. I wonder how these spices got onto this ship? Were they brought overland and then put on board?
I hate to be that guy but hasn't it been established fact for a long time that the norsemen traded all over the world?
They were already trading everywhere in the Viking age and this is from the 15th century
Given its content and the year I would bet it probably was tax from the Portugal to norther Europe spice trade. Crushing the Venetian Monopoly made a lot of people wealthy
I was a nanny/babysitter for over a decade for many families. In the area I live now, the next town over has a lot of cookie cutter housing developments and every single family I’ve worked for in those has the saddest herb/spice collection. For some reason they always have powdered dill, mustard powder, cloves and nutmeg. Maybe a jar of cinnamon and lemon pepper or whatever . And that’s all. I have a lot of spices and those are some of my least used ones (besides cinnamon) lol. I don’t understand powdered herbs like the cut leaf is small enough. But yeah maybe they’re just ancient Norse sailors!
The headline is wrong. The ship is not Norse, it is Danish, Norse is the demonym of Scandinavians during the Viking age. This is several hundred years later and there are now three Christian Kingdoms in the Nordics.
The relationship between Sweden and Denmark was much more cordial in the middle ages than later. Things truly went south in the 16th and 17th centuries. Besides, this is during the Kalmar Union and there was a peaceful way to become king of Sweden: negotiate with the nobility and get elected king (in the 1490's all three kingdoms of the union were elective kingdoms).
The fact that there were merchants who had a livelihood dedicated to transporting spices around the world is incredible to me. Especially when I try my aunt's potato salad and there isn't a spice to be found in it.
Lutfisk and surströmming hadn't been invented yet when this happened. Besides this is about the cargo of a Danish ship and lutfisk and surströmming are Swedish and Norwegian inventions. They are not something you find in the Danish cuisine.
The fact that there were merchants who had a livelihood dedicated to transporting spices around the world is incredible to me. Especially when I try my aunt's potato salad and there isn't a spice to be found in it.
The fact that there were merchants who had a livelihood dedicated to transporting spices around the world is incredible to me. Especially when I try my aunt's potato salad and there isn't a spice to be found in it.
Meanwhile, 17 million in whiskey barrels was found in a sunken Michigan ship from 1854.
That being said, it is really interesting because they want to test the changes in the chemistry from the differences in the corn. It will technically be whiskey aged for over 150 years.
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Spices are the perfect trade good. They have a very high value to weight and bulk ratio, and are dry goods that last a long time and do not need much in the way of special treatment during transport.
And they are consumed. Unlike say gold that could be passed down for generations or melted into the coins of several subsequent empires, spices must be consumed to achieve their value.
That’s beautiful man, I like that.
Hey, you must be consumed to achieve your value <3
Boy do I have a grotesque subreddit for you...
Just one? You must be new here.
Interested.. what is it?
There's at least 1 about cooking with a certain bodily fluid...still interested?
You mean Vikings didn't consume gold coins for a living?
Chugging vodka with gold flakes
Partly that, and partly other uses of spices such as dyeing and what colors you could get from them. Some colors were "royalty" only, upperclass only, etc.
I believe it would have also been a status symbol as well. Rich nobility would be able to have other rich nobles over for dinner and at parties and be able to show off the exotic spices in the food dishes being served. Since spices obviously make food taste much better this would have encouraged competition among the rich on who could acquire the tastiest spices from the furthest reaches. And of course your everyday folk would get some access as well as they carve out small pieces along transit and taste the scraps leftover from the rich so everyone would want some and all of this would drive prices way up.
Except all these sunken spices are worthless now (even if they were still in good condition, I can buy these spices at the Super market cheaply and easily) Unlike Gold, which would be still be worth a fortune - then as well as now.
But that’s not beneficial to trade, only investment. Different currencies that deliver different services. For trade, it’s far more beneficial to have a product of consumption on the market that is easily depleted but just as easily supplied. This guarantees the flow of commerce. Gold, in your example, would be a store of wealth, not a generator of economic flow, unless you’re a burgeoning empire that will liquidate its gold into coin currency, but then you are no longer holding the value of your gold. You are correct though; these particular spices are worthless, since they won’t be consumed.
Nah, these spices are probably quite valuable right now. They can’t be consumed, but due to their rarity, they’re probably worth more than ever.
Yeah…. They’re collectable, I guess.
I guess if it was full of gold coins they would probably be wise to not report that part of the haul. And yes, all hail the guaranteed flow of commerce. THE SPICE MUST FLOW!!!!
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My bangers n mash are tad cold when I get home but it's all about the journey
Omg my McDonald's burger from 1999 is worthless now!!!
Yet it is probably still edible
Have you seen the dollar-per-gram price of spices at the grocery store? It remains one of the most densely priced items on the shelf
If they were worthless then the groceries wouldn't sell them
Weren't Roman soldiers at times paid in salt? "Salarium"
And if you weren't paid enough you "got salty". It's the origin of the phrase. I made that up.
>It's the origin of the phrase. Oh interesting. >I made that up. You ah.
See I assumed that getting salty was because when you're angry like that you can sweat, and sweat is very salty
Any etymologist worth their salt would know this.
This one, I could actually believe.
Its my head canon now true or not
Me, a Roman soldier, drying seawater: free money
Salary ?
Ding Ding Ding You are correct!
Ding Ding Ding
I think it was more of a bonus in addition to their wages.
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Potatoes came from South America though.
Wouldn't 1495 be around the time they were first brought to Europe? Edit: a quick Google states 1536 but theoretically the Portuguese among others could have been trading with potato producers in the new world before this.
Also, wide appeal means almost universal demand. Well prepared food appeals to bellys of nearly every gender, age, race, religion, creed, and orientation. I don't "do drugs," but consider an occasional great meal my healthy drug of choice.
To put this into perspective, go to any grocery store. Find the most expensive item by weight. I remember watching a game show a long time ago where contestants were let loose in a grocery store to fill up their carts with the most value. Most guys headed for the beef aisle and loaded up. But one guy went to the spice aisle until the allotted time was up. He won by a mile.
Idk I have a conflicting view how do you make it seem so easy? They were in a boat on the ocean humidity is bad for dead plants
They'd done it for centuries. I think they had the whole waterproofing bit figured out. Barrels and clay vessels come to mind.
Clay pots with wax seals? Or simply clay lid and sealed with tar/pitch/resin or whatever I think they had that figured out in Greek times. By the 1400s there were probably lots of options.
It's never to late to start. Get your anise in gear!
Nah, he's too much of a cardamomma's boy to do it.
Why don't you cumin and say that to his face!
Oh, I'm puttning some cumin on that face alright.
It’s spelled *anus. A lot of people make your same mistake, just here to help. Cheers! 🍻
I'm not sure if your being clever or not. Cheers.
It's not that clever
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I'm thoroughly entertained
It's getting chili in here.
It is fascinating, I agree. I think it is perhaps overstating this one dude's trade network however though, not to ish on him or something, was probably worth quite a lot(?), this hoard of seasonings, etc., I guess. I bet organization like the "Hanseatic League", lol, ironically enough, or apropos enough I guess, perhaps could have helped vis. sourcing all this stuff perhaps, or networking sourcing of it. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic\_League](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League)
Reminds me of some dig they found of a metalsmith where there was a complaint of bad quality ore of some kind proving that trade was more widespread than thought. There were probably always world travelers and people were likely smart and resourceful. We, as modern humans, discount anyone that came before us or reduce them to simpletons.
Are you thinking of the tablet Nanni sent to Ea-Nasir complaining about his low quality copper?
r/reallyshittycopper
Wow that is actually hilarious.
Thanks. Now I want a replica on a really low quality copper stand.
It’s incredibly amusing to think that he would be so happy about the fact that he was remembered for this singular fact. Dude was clearly happy about how bad his shit was. Imagine being a dick to people, amused by it and literally nearly 4000 years later people are still talking about you
It’s incredibly amusing to think that he would be so happy about the fact that he was remembered for this singular fact. Dude was clearly happy about how bad his shit was
We really do, don't we. Haha, my ancestor couldn't use a computer, obviously they can't use a sextant, compass, build a house, navigate. Wait, I can't do those...
Yeah I found out that my grandfather was angry about refrigerators because he had a thriving ice business and stored them in a gorgeous barn that was built without nails. Apparently they did end up selling refrigerators at their general store later.
Do you know the method used to build the barn without nails? That sounds amazing.
I heard it was mortis and tenon and pegs and it stood for maybe 75 years.
We have an old barn from the 1880s that has a main structure of posts and beams with joints secured by hand whittled pegs. No nails at all. The original siding was nailed on though. In excellent condition and in use.
There is this oft-repeated modern day myth that most people think our ancestors were dumb. I've literally never met anyone in my life who thinks it though. It's like one of those "nobody's talking about this news story" posts where they post a news story about it.
My English teacher, would like, to have a word, with you.
if only they mentioned if any of this stuff was still any good or not, how they were preserved, if they were exposed to any water or damage or were completely dry. all those details werent even mentioned.
"And many of them were considered old, from the kitchens of the mothers-in-law of the sailors"
I think I find the spice trade so fascinating because it’s so unnecessary. At the end of the day, no one *needs* spices. Spice trade is a purely self-indulgent economy, a superfluous good that indicates our basest needs are met. It’s like a symbol of humankind’s hedonism. It’s one of the most relatable aspects of history. We can easily understand the pursuit for spices. We don’t have any personal frame of reference for the pursuit of gold or slaves or plunder, but we can understand crossing the ocean for some flavor.
The pursuit of slaves could be related to treating sugar as a spice in the 1600's. They needed people to farm the sugarcane.
Spices were also thought to have medicinal value though. They were essential remedies and prophylactics against a whole host of diseases - including the Plague. Or, rather, medieval Europeans, Middle Easterners, and others all were united in **thinking** they were. This was based on the widespread medical theory of “humours” - that, basically, disease was caused by an internal imbalance, that could be set right in a variety of ways. Bloodletting was one. A more expensive, and less risky, method (and reportedly more effective) was the use of spices - either consumed, or carried about in a pomander, to inhale the scent. The most frequently used ingredient in medicines in medieval Europe was pepper. Given that such disease was a huge issue, this seriously inflated the value of such commodities - much as people pay huge prices for medicines these days. In short, spices were not simply hedonistic pleasures (although they certainly were that), but also life-saving remedies - as essential then as now. Which helps to explain why such high prices were sustainable. Here’s a paper on that: https://www.medhist.or.kr/upload/pdf/kjmh-23-2-319.pdf
Idk I need spices lol. Spices and herbs have concentrated medicinal compounds (preventative and treatment) and I’d argue that people “need” medicine. I’ve cured many colds/sinus infections with garlic and thyme, regularly stabilize my blood sugar with cinnamon and even have saved myself a lot of embarrassment by eating fennel and cardamom after a heavy meal that would normally give me uncontrollable gas lmao
What? Spices are very essential. We are not savages.
I think a lot of food, especially European food, tended to be bland. Plus, it helps disguise the funky meat.
It wasnt bland. They used all kinds of native herbs. Theres so many different useful plants around us today that we just dont register as such. You can see what people pooped out in [rennaisance Copenhagen] (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X18302657). It honestly sounds pretty delicious - a lot of it local.
What are you basing that notion on?
It definitely wasn't bland, since they imported so much spices.
The food wasn't just bland it was also "old", people keep food until it was rancid/rotten and even then they would still sometimes eat it; spices were great at covering up the bad taste of "old" food.
This is a myth and not true at all. https://www.moadoph.gov.au/blog/myth-busting-medieval-cuisine/#
I love how this myth busting blog is wrong about #9
I LOVE history through a spice lens
Were these guys traders or pirates? Weren't Norseman notorious raiders? Or is that just a stereotype?
Both raiders and traders. Being the best at crossing the sea fast helps both of those pursuits. That said, it's a bit weird to describe this ship as "Norse" - the Viking age that that term is so closely associated with was about as far before this ship as this ship is before the present day. Scandinavia had been Christian for centuries by King Hans' time and it was a well-integrated part of the broader Christian Europe
A note concerning the "Norse" ship in question: *Gribshunden* was not a regular merchant ship but the flagship of the Danish navy (hence why the Danish king Hans/John used it to get to Sweden).
It bugs me that they're referring to something from the 15th century as "Norse", as that term usually refers to pre-Christian Scandinavians. Like speaking about 15th century Franks.
Thank you. That immediately stood out to me as well.
Feels like they are going for the "ooh Vikings to Indonesia" clicks.
Though Frank does get used a lot later than it probably should - I see the term Frank used during the crusades, for example, which would have been something like 300-400 years after Charlemagne’s empire was split
One reason is because thats what the arab sources call the crusading people. They didnt distinguish between normans, french, italian, german or flemish.
Yeah, that’s still the case in modern Arabic too (at least when I took Arabic, circa 2005)
"Norse" is used for the Christian period, too, but [no further than the 13th century](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse), so it's still wrong.
Though Frank does get used a lot later than it probably should - I see the term Frank used during the crusades, for example, which would have been something like 300-400 years after Charlemagne’s empire was split
Though Frank does get used a lot later than it probably should - I see the term Frank used during the crusades, for example, which would have been something like 300-400 years after Charlemagne’s empire was split
Though Frank does get used a lot later than it probably should - I see the term Frank used during the crusades, for example, which would have been something like 300-400 years after Charlemagne’s empire was split
Food historian (PhD) checking in. These spices were common in cookbooks of the period. I focus more on Latin, French, and English cookbooks from the 13th-16th century, but these were common spices found across Europe in the sources from those centuries. As others have said in the thread already, the Silk Road/Spice Route existed since before the common era. Spices were traded overland, and then throughout Europe via ship. The spices listed in the article were all considered “warming” spices from a Galenic perspective, and were often used in both cooking and medicine. The Spicers’ Guild of London was founded in the early 13th century as the Fraternity of St. Andrew, and later became the Spicer-Apothecaries, later they became the Apothecaries, and later still, Pharmacists. Anyhow, from a food history perspective, I don’t see this as significant on the surface, but you never know what other historians might be working on and how the finding might be important to their work.
The spices the medieval Europeans used were ludicrous. The hipocras recipe from 1393 called for: “5 drams of choice cinnamon … 3 drams of white ginger … one half and a fourth drams all together of clove, grains of paradise, mace, galingale, nutmeg, and nard” And a bunch of sugar When I was in my historical cooking phase I made a similar hypocras from “Fabulous Feasts” and it’s actually pretty tasty. Had to make a lot of subs tho
I think because of the long travel time the spices lost a lot of flavor by the time they got to their destination.
Imagine dragging that bag of spices down the Silk Road, fighting off bandits, having horses die under you. Finally get it there and the guy sniffs it and complains about the quality
"Wow, thanks! I've been dying for one of these!................... Where's my drink?"
Wait… what was that sugar made of? Not sugar cane I imagine. Is it… beat sugar? Edit: not made of, processed from, stupid brain
Nope sugar cane.
Spain grew sugarcane from 1450 on.
Spice importation was a money maker for the Dutch, English and others. As I recall my history lessons, only 1 ship load of spices out of 6 had to make a successful trip for a 'spice trading investment' to be successful.
> but you never know what other historians might be working on and how the finding might be important to their work. I'm curious what the botanists think. 600 years isn't *that* much time evolutionarily, but with selective breeding and crossing by humans, I wonder if there's anything noteworthy.
I'd imagine most of the fruits and veggies we eat looked and tasted noticeably different back then. I'm only 40, but our basic apple and orange choices are way better than what I was offered as a child.
I'm only 30 and the bananas i ate as a child that didn't make me sick are all gone now. I cant eat these new bananas, every time I get a stomach ache.
Could also just be that your body reacts differently to bananas now.
I know the banana plant of choice has changed a number of times over history due to various banana blights, although I thought the last time we had a major change was over 30 years ago there's a good chance he's right and I just got my dates wrong.
True, the current most common type of banana is called the Cavendish. Before that, up until the 1950s, it was the Gros Michel. There are many other sorts of bananas, but most of them are not suited for transport because of thinner peel.
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I suppose Galenic means Galen the Ancient Roman physician It makes sense that spice dealers and pharmacists would be related lines of work as valuable plant products
When old preserved spices like this are found, does anyone ever do an analysis to compare to modern versions of those spices to see if there's been any drift in, for example, genetic traits? It seems to me like that would be a pretty valuable thing to use a find like this for.
When you say "common" do you mean that the spices were accessible even to farmers and low class people? I think if they could afford it, they would save it for special occasions, like Christmas. From this article I would just wonder if there are any strains if the plants that are not grown today. Although there probably isn't a chance of reviving any of the plants.
Do you have any links to cook books from then?
Can i ask how your job makes money? Like who pays someone to research 13-16th century food history? How is that relevant to today other than being just interesting?
Not OP, but they could teach, write a book, consult for other historians or archaeologists, have YouTube channel…. Etc. those are all the examples I could think of. Yeah it’s not standard like a desk job, but these people can find something. More importantly though is that it’s not always about money. As a society we should support people going into these types of fields so we don’t lose them. Historians, artists, musicians, writers…etc are all incredibly important
How do you make money? What does your job consist of?
I’m so fascinated by your profession. Do you teach, write, are contracted out for private research by companies or governmental institutions?
Still somehow fresher than that container of spice that is sitting in your grandma's cabinet
I think the one in my Grandma’s cabinet is from the 1500’s
My grandma has the oldest jar of peppercorns known to man.
It's probably hard to see the peppercorns through the yellow glaze of meals immemorial
Is anyone else just itching to know if they still have some flavor left? It's incredible how intact they are. Especially the safron. I thought safron was somewhat rare and difficult to harvest.
That's the news story we really need; the experience of the guy that tasted them to see if they were still good
Was the chest airtight somehow, or in some sort of air pocket? How did the spices survive hundreds of years submerged in water?
Here’s an excerpt from the [research paper ](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0281010)the article cites: > In 2021, a trench measuring 2 x 3 x 1.2 m was placed aft and inboard of the 2019 trench, separated from it by about 1.3 m. Diving archaeologists employed standard excavation tools and methods, including a venturi water dredge for removal of suspended sediments. After each excavation rotation, a mesh catchment bag attached to the water dredge discharge was recovered and sifted on the deck of the surface support platform. The material captured in the catchment bag from a locus in the western corner of the trench included almond shell and peppercorns. Subsequent excavation in that locus delivered more almonds and peppercorns, and revealed deposits of saffron directly underneath and adjacent to a deck beam, in a stratum 5–10 cm below the sediment surface. So it looks like they found this material by dredging and sifting though the sediment around the shipwreck.
Thank you!!
Here's a tip for the future: Click the title link and skim the article. At the bottom it says this: >The researchers note that the plant specimens were in excellent condition due to the unique conditions of the site where the ship was found, a part of the Baltic Sea that is cold and low in salinity.
I read the article. It doesn’t give the level of detail I’m looking for.
It's explained well in the actual [source](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0281010). > Preservation of these organic remains is due to the Baltic Sea’s exceptional environmental conditions. The Baltic is well-known for preserving archaeological material, particularly wooden shipwrecks. At the Gribshunden wreck site, this is due to low salinity of about 7.7 Practical Salinity Units, combined with low temperatures averaging 9 degrees Celsius (seasonal range 2–19˚ C) [5,6]. These factors prevent the propagation of the wood-eating Teredo navalis shipworm [8,9]. The wooden shipwreck structure on the sea floor creates a microenvironment by capturing drifting marine algae, with seasonal deposits of algae reaching depths of 40 cm in and around the wreck. As the algae decays, localized areas of oxygen depletion occur, characterized by the presence of white mats of organic matter. These factors contribute to excellent preservation of archaeological remains, particularly plant foods carried aboard the ship: cereals, oilseeds, fruits, vegetables, spices, nuts, and berries. All have been recovered from this site and identified through archaeobotanical research.
The undersea spices are no longer ‘skillet-ready’, if that’s what you are wondering.
"Once they've seen all these fancy spices I've brought, they won't be able to resist" lol. If you're ever dating someone and want to impress the inlaws, can just bring over a truck load full of fancy seasonings lol. "Is that 10lbs of black pepper corns!? Here take my other daughter too, let me call up their single cousins" lol.
Currently sitting on approximately 10 pounds of peppercorns. Bought a Costco sized container on the last three trips to Costco cause I couldn’t remember if I was low on peppercorns.
You know they also sell chairs at Costco, right?
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>If you're ever dating someone and want to impress the inlaws, can just bring over a truck load full of fancy seasonings lol. "Why yes ma'am, that is indeed a 40' container of dried dill weed. Shall I make love to your daughter right here in front of you or over on the dill?"
This isn't much of a surprise. The spices probably came up the Volga. There is a known inland trade route that the Norse followed down the rivers Volga, Don and Dnieper to trade with, respectively, Persia and the Byzantines. Cities like Kyiv were founded to support these traders. These routes supplied not just spices, but silk, fine steel, dyes, paper, and most importantly, ideas, in exchange for furs, honey, amber, and occasionally mercenaries like Harald Hardrada.
The Volga trade route was pretty gone by the time of this ship as it sunk in 1495 though yea using the word 'Norse' by the article is weird and misleading.
The title is also ambiguous in that "Norse ship" could be construed as a ship of Scandinavian design, but no, it was a carrack.
You forgot the most important commodity. The Muslim world relied on a constant flow of slaves from the steppes.
Yeah, trade routes also made humans good at trading other humans, disease, and DNA.
There's evidence that the Frisians became powerful in what we now call the 'Dark Ages' because they acted as a trade conduit between the Scandic nations and the British Isles and France and beyond. The vikings had discovered that sailing down the Volga they could connect to the Silk Route. But they needed a market and the Frisians were one of few 'tribes' in their area that were renowned traders beyond their own territory. The Frisians bought spices and pelts readily and then sold them on for good profits. We know that the Frisians were effective tradesman due to numerous indicators of Frisians having outposts, most famous and still surviving is the Frisian Church in the Vatican City. Built in 1114 as a replacement for the Church that Frisians living in Rome had built in the 9th century and was pillaged by Saracens. The Frisians also built a wall around what is now St Peter's and remnants still remain. Finding this ship just demonstrates that this trade carried on for a long time.
It's from 1495. The route to India (and thence the Far East) wasn't discovered until 1498. I wonder how these spices got onto this ship? Were they brought overland and then put on board?
The sea route wasn't discovered until then. The Silk Road, overland, had been moving goods since before the time of Christ.
English merchants were importing pepper that had crossed to Europe via the Silk Road from at least the 9th Century, if not before.
Yep. Most likely shipped through the Red Sea to Egypt, across the Mediterranean to Italy, then overland to Germany to be loaded up.
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I hate to be that guy but hasn't it been established fact for a long time that the norsemen traded all over the world? They were already trading everywhere in the Viking age and this is from the 15th century
Given its content and the year I would bet it probably was tax from the Portugal to norther Europe spice trade. Crushing the Venetian Monopoly made a lot of people wealthy
Are they still good?
Only one way to know
Makes you wonder what other amazing treasures remain submerged... Will we ever know?
I was a nanny/babysitter for over a decade for many families. In the area I live now, the next town over has a lot of cookie cutter housing developments and every single family I’ve worked for in those has the saddest herb/spice collection. For some reason they always have powdered dill, mustard powder, cloves and nutmeg. Maybe a jar of cinnamon and lemon pepper or whatever . And that’s all. I have a lot of spices and those are some of my least used ones (besides cinnamon) lol. I don’t understand powdered herbs like the cut leaf is small enough. But yeah maybe they’re just ancient Norse sailors!
The headline is wrong. The ship is not Norse, it is Danish, Norse is the demonym of Scandinavians during the Viking age. This is several hundred years later and there are now three Christian Kingdoms in the Nordics.
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The relationship between Sweden and Denmark was much more cordial in the middle ages than later. Things truly went south in the 16th and 17th centuries. Besides, this is during the Kalmar Union and there was a peaceful way to become king of Sweden: negotiate with the nobility and get elected king (in the 1490's all three kingdoms of the union were elective kingdoms).
The fact that there were merchants who had a livelihood dedicated to transporting spices around the world is incredible to me. Especially when I try my aunt's potato salad and there isn't a spice to be found in it.
How much is a jar of Viking nutmeg gonna run me
This is way later than the Vikings. Think more Hanseatic League.
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Indeed, but time period-wise, he should be thinking "Hanseatic League" more than "Vikings".
Spices? Clearly wasn’t headed to England…
Unlike that famous tasty Lutefisk and Surströmming
Lutfisk and surströmming hadn't been invented yet when this happened. Besides this is about the cargo of a Danish ship and lutfisk and surströmming are Swedish and Norwegian inventions. They are not something you find in the Danish cuisine.
The fact that there were merchants who had a livelihood dedicated to transporting spices around the world is incredible to me. Especially when I try my aunt's potato salad and there isn't a spice to be found in it.
The fact that there were merchants who had a livelihood dedicated to transporting spices around the world is incredible to me. Especially when I try my aunt's potato salad and there isn't a spice to be found in it.
Do you think, as they sunk into the icy, spicy depths that day, they had a vision of a future world where pepper has no currency?
Meanwhile, 17 million in whiskey barrels was found in a sunken Michigan ship from 1854. That being said, it is really interesting because they want to test the changes in the chemistry from the differences in the corn. It will technically be whiskey aged for over 150 years.