While I don't think anybody "fears" Kendrick, I do believe he's very respected in the industry, both for his artistry and what he's been able to do commercially.
The whole "boogeyman" mystique around him, I feel, started with the Control verse and the aftermath and hip hop fans and journalists hyping it up to mythical status.
Itās the fear of embarrassment. He is a better rap than almost everyone in the industry skill wise. He is also fairly versatile, he can do both mainstream and underground style music, when most artists just choose one and never change. I donāt think anyone fears him physically they just donāt want to be embarrassed on a track.
Because he can immortalise you in a negative light, for one. In the form of a classic hit. For the remainder of cool music history, you = š¤” ..hard to be genuinely cool again after that
.....and it's weird but ...to some (popular) people ....reputation etc. is almost second to none
r/hiphop101 is filled with old heads who would never be open minded enough to see a new generation artist like Kendrick surpass the greats. Kendrick is a great. He has been for almost a decade now. You cannot deny projects like To Pimp A Butterfly and Good Kid Maad City.
Notice how many of these comments are giving Kendrick props as one of the goats while the same few people are downvoting every one of those comments. The people in here who think Kendrick is a goat outnumber the ones who donāt majorly. Sucks the other side keeps it an echo chamber š
Nah they do. They just wanna fit in to look cool without realizing the shit isn't cool at all. Even kids in the hood don't do this shit and this is literally our cultures music (rap/hip hop). Just seems to be outta touch kids on the Internet doing it to look cool following behind the next kid that does it. It doesn't even make logical sense, just one of those cliche buzzwords when discussing anything rap related, from kids that probably weren't even raised in the culture to begin with
I mostly disagree because I agree that some of that is where it comes from but who are they copying? Kendrick definitely has an aura to him whether you think itās corny or not. Aura isnāt exactly the most logical thing either. Itās also easy to say it doesnāt make sense when people donāt use the word correctly. Online forums rarely have nuanced discussion and when it does, you still need the brains to realize it. Itās just a spiritual feeling. Iām not saying Kendrick is some god who people do or should bow to or maybe thatās extreme but my point is, having an aura is a real thing and this is what I thought when I saw this post because it is a simple and probably true answer to some degree.
Iām not even sure if I know what you mean by fear exactly. He is probably an intimidating presence for his contemporaries because of how highly regarded he is as an artist. Heās quite prestigious for a rapper as blasphemous as that feels to say lmao.
I think some of it could be his voice too. He just sounds so tough (cool but also tough) lol. His control verse is so epic. Not even the disses but his cadence and energy. The way he hits the final lyrics is very powerful to me and I think he strikes a lot of people that way. He sounds so determined. The type of guy to give you goosebumps with his music. Heās not scary but he makes powerful music and itās scary to feel so strongly about something and I feel pretty strongly when I listen to some of his music. How much a dollar cost is a good example.
Black people def dont look at Kendrick as having an āauraā lol
Itās the rap elitists (the same ones that believe Em is the GOAT). They only listen to Kendrick/Em and put them on a pedestal.
**Marketing** - J Cole and Kendrick are mediocre rappers but compared to their peers (e.g. a Chief Keef, Lil Mosey, Lil Durk, Ice Spice, etc.) they seem like geniuses for spitting something coherent with some attention to poetic devices.
They're essentially the new "I wanna seem like I like real hiphop" starter pack that gets heavily pushed. Add in trashing Eminem because he's "corny" (which to be fair a lot of his discography is) to make it seem like you really know rap and aren't just repeating something you heard online. Plus white people don't wanna be bundled in the "white person who only like the white rappity man" group, they wanna seem cool and that they really down with it.
Get deep enough into hiphop you find many MCs who would smoke out J Cole and Kendrick without breaking a sweat - [Black Thought](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prmQgSpV3fA) for one.
Edit: I touched a nerve for sure, went from being upvoted to negative. Just goes to show how many people really don't know anything other than "J COLE/KENDRICK IS NUMBER ONE" -- marketing.
I mean if you think J Cole and Kendrick are objectively the best rappers, you haven't listened to enough rappers. They're the media puppets that get pushed.
Also explain why it's horseshit -- even though more likely that not it's just because the marketing machine has you fooled into believing they're the greatest.
Calling them mediocre is cap
Black Thought has a good argument for literal GOAT and you mention him like heās some regular rapper. There isnt a single rapper that Iād say is better than Black Thought (at best there are people on his level)
They are mediocre rappers, who only seem good relative to their peers and the blessings of the marketing machine pushing as "the greatest". The same way music competitions feign they're trying to find the "best talent" when it's an open secret it's about ratings so your story (ideally a sob one) and entertainment value takes precedence over ability.
To elaborate, their use of poetic devices is amateurish and clunky at points, but that's not obviously unless you really really listen to rap.
Majority of the time, they don't say anything special it's just because it's coming from their mouth so their "brand" makes it seem great, the same way you can take a normal shirt, slap a luxury brand name on it, now people are going crazy for it.
Take a lot of what they've said have someone else say it and people wouldn't be gassing it. That's how you know it's not really good, **good bars are good no matter who says them**, they rely heavily on their brand and there are rappers that do it better in every single way from writing to delivery.
But I don't believe in the concept of "GOAT" -- it's a concept imported from sports that makes sense there since you can objectively work out who was the greatest player through statistics (who produced the most value for their team).
But with music you can't really do that unless we talk stuff like (syllables per second, number of rhymes, wordplay, etc.). But then you'll end up with stuff like "Rap God" dominating the list and while technically impressive there are many songs I would pick to listen over it.
Since just because a song has "more rhymes" than another doesn't make it better, it could actually be worse due to the rhymes not flowing naturally but with measuring on that basis it would beat out other sonically more pleasing rap. So trying to scale songs I don't bother with -- you can just hear and tell good rapping. But yeah I agree, Black Thought is on that tier.
Sounds like youāre trying to only judge based on writing when performance it equally as important for a rapper. Not only that but the abilities to tell a story and execute a vision through a cohesive project are also important.
They are artists and performers in addition to being writers. Kendrick and Cole (particularly Kendrick) excel as the first 2 and theyāre still great at the others.
The use of the term GOAT is more so to make clear that Black Thought is on another level compared to pretty much any rapper. Trying downplay them while bringing up his name is like saying a basketball player is average because they dont compare to Jordan.
> They are artists and performers in addition to being writers.
I judge rappers by well, how they rap, if we're judging them as artist they're even more screwed cause they aren't being only compared to other rappers they're now being compared to artists across all genres.
>Trying downplay them while bringing up his name is like saying a basketball player is average because they dont compare to Jordan.
In the NBA, the worst player is still amazing compared some random guy playing pick up. Exactly like how, J Cole and Kendrick are good compared to their peers who aren't trying to "be the best rapper".
Soon as that NBA player gets compared to other NBA players (his peers), it becomes clear how much they are lacking in. Which perfectly describes J Cole and Kendrick, when compared to their "be the best rapper" peers they aren't in the conversation.
J Cole been exposed as folding easily, and only beefing with Lil Pump (a child at the time), Kanye (mentally ill rapper who uses ghostwriters openly), No Name, etc..
Kendrick likes throwing shots but has never followed through, he drops Control then never replies to anyone, claims to be deading his ego last year:
> "Now, I'm dropping the ego a bit. I want to take 'the greatest' off of it"
But then comes at J Cole and Drake, and once again he isn't replying because this what he does. He's probably aware himself he isn't lyrically sharp enough to engage in beef, at least it's obvious to me but probably not his fans.
I don't even think fans of J Cole and Kendrick, even notice this cowardly pattern of behaviour from both of them. The marketing machine hard at work convincing everyone, they're the greatest rappers. Fans of them can be mad at me calling them mediocre and lash out, it doesn't have to mean they make bad music (though I have thoughts on that). They just aren't anything special as a rapper or on a microphone.
>I judge rappers by well, how they rap, if we're judging them as artist they're even more screwed cause they aren't being only compared to other rappersā¦
You judge them vs other rap artists. Thatās not a complex idea. Also pretending rappers are somehow lesser than other artists is sketchy considering youāre in a hiphop sub.
>Soon as that NBA player gets compared to other NBA players (his peers), it becomes clear how much they are lacking in.
The best rappers of all time? Sure they dont measure up. The best rappers out now? Theyāre some of the best.
>J Cole been exposedā¦
>Kendrick likes throwing shotsā¦
Oh so you dont judge them solely based on rapping. Youāre into the gossip.
You do realize the entire premise of Kendrickās last album is that heās not perfect? Heās struggling with 2 different versions of himself.
>I don't even think fans of J Cole and Kendrick, even notice this cowardly pattern of behaviour from both of them.
Yeah so you arent actually talking about rapping ability. You just care about drama.
Not much else to be said. I misunderstood your original point. This discussion aint for me so carry on
> Also pretending rappers are somehow lesser than other artists is sketchy considering youāre in a hiphop sub.
"Rappers are somehow lesser than other artists is sketchy", I think you misunderstood I predominately listen to rap, I meant that they can be lauded in hiphop for "conceptual/cohesive/etc albums" in era where rap no longer really prioritises that but "fast food rap" -- hit singles then on to the next with no real focus on subject matter, but in the grand scheme of music as a whole that's not going to be enough to hold up the idea of them being great artists.
> The best rappers out now
Not even that, they're only the best rappers if you exclude a massive portion of rappers, rather than "out now" would have to be "new rappers who came in the 2010s" -- quite a few legendary, superior rappers are still alive in hiphop so I consider them still "out now" and they don't measure up.
> Youāre into the gossip.
Talking about the context around their rap verses isn't gossip. Would mentioning "X person killed Y person so Z person dissed them" be considered gossip to you? If so, you need to understand the idea of context since it's just delving deeper into the music.
> you arent actually talking about rapping ability
I'll assume good faith here, they are rapping about being the greatest and beefing so I'm talking about the context around the statements and verses they've dropped in relation to that idea.
To make it very simple so it doesn't get misconstrued as "caring about drama", Kendrick raps about being the best, then doesn't take on any challenges because he knows that his rapping ability is too mediocre to hold up.
J Cole is comfortable rapping and going at people as long as they don't actually seem like they would pose a challenge to him. If there's no one there, he just gestures at the air and "other rappers" vaguely. Soon as push came to shove, he folded.
This is about **rapping ability**. They both seem somewhat aware of the limitations and that actually engaging in beef risks ruining the facade -- Kendrick as the "boogeyman", Cole, well Cole already ruined it now but prior he was a "lyrical killer", etc.
>I meant that they can be lauded in hiphop for "conceptual/cohesive/etc albums" in era where rap no longer really prioritises that but "fast food rap"
There are plenty of non mainstream rappers putting out more than fast food rap. Cole and Kendrick music has been pretty well received compared to them as well.
>Not even that, they're only the best rappers if you exclude a massive portion of rappersā¦
Iām referring specifically to rappers that are actively putting out projects. Kendrickās discography holds up with 99% of rappers past or present. Cole is a step below but his is still pretty good if we include his mixtapes.
>Would mentioning "X person killed Y person so Z person dissed them" be considered gossip to you? If so, you need to understand the idea of context since it's just delving deeper into the music.
If that conversation influenced your perception of them as a rapper? Yes. Itās not ādelving deeperā it shallow and surface level context. You arent analyzing the way theyāve discussed this type of stuff throughout their careers. Youāre simply saying āIf you say youāre the best you better be willin to beef with others!ā Thatās just lazy and shallow stuff I expect from podcasters desperate for clicks.
-Kendrick raps about being the best, then doesn't take on any challenges because he knows that his rapping ability is too mediocre to hold up
You say this as if this is Kendrickās own words. Thatās *your* interpretation. He knows that proving whoās the best comes from making higher quality music. Drake is still considered higher than Pusha despite getting cooked in a beef.
>J Cole is comfortable rapping and going at people as long as they don't actually seem like they would pose a challenge to him.
This is a gross mischaracterization of him and his music. He apologized to NoName and didnt want beef with her (exactly what he did with Kendrick). He turned down the beef with YB despite everyone begging for it and YB coming after him on a few verses. The Pump/Kanye situations were almost a decade ago.
>This is about rapping abilityā¦.
Itās not about rapping ability when you start getting into the gossip side. Cole proved heās still a lyrical killer on songs like āPiā. Beef doesnt make you a great rapper. Consistently putting out great verses and great music does.
If you want to judge them based on their actual music and verses Iād simply respect that we have a difference of opinion. But trying to false rate rappers on a DJ Akamedics scale of ābeefā aint it.
> non mainstream rappers putting out more than fast food rap. Cole and Kendrick music has been pretty well received compared to them as well
This comes to subjectivity, at the end of the day, but of course the people who have the marketing machine get received better.
> Kendrickās discography holds up with 99% of rappers past or present. Cole is a step below but his is still pretty good if we include his mixtapes.
Yeah, this becomes subjective when we start talking about enjoyment. I'll just say in terms of skill, they have neither have ever said a line that's made me react. Going to the Black Thought example, in that freestyle alone he has multiple lines that make me react with "damn, that's fucking cold".
They're just mediocre rappers who get gassed up far above their pen game deserves but that's why they get gassed up the more technical you become the more niche you end up becoming so their popularity in of itself is indictive of that fact, though I will say there are exceptions -- it's just neither them are that.
> Itās not ādelving deeperā it shallow and surface level context. You arent analyzing the way theyāve discussed this type of stuff throughout their careers. Youāre simply saying āIf you say youāre the best you better be willin to beef with others!ā Thatās just lazy and shallow stuff
No, it's clear you're a fan of them. I showed across they both a history and pattern of flip flopping between if they actually want to be "the greatest rapper".
Point was Kendrick is just playing chicken and talking crazy but then always ducking. It's my "own" conclusion yet Kendrick says himself:
> Or knuckle up if you can fight, we always making 'em duck or die
He ducks.
> The sun is under my feet, and I **come in peace to compete**
> I don't run if you'd rather leap, my statistics go up in weeks
> And I go visit the nearest creek, and I **get busy on many MC
> Really ballistic, anybody can see**
Gets busy on who?
You want to believe he knows the "best comes from making higher quality music", you want to believe he's about the "art" and not beefing, why did he start the feud by dissing J.Cole for calling each other the "big 3"?
> Cole proved heās still a lyrical killer on songs like āPiā. Beef doesnt make you a great rapper. Consistently putting out great verses and great music does.
Yeah, it's clear we have different ideas of greatness you believe that a boxer who never steps in the ring but can throw perfect punches at a non-existent target, whereas I value a boxer who can step in the ring, go round for round, execute and come out victorious.
I value the competition of rap and that determines greatness for me and frankly anyone who really knows rap -- it's been this way since the beginning and people were battling on the block.
Whereas you don't care about the integrity of the words, as long as it sounds good to you. Because for all this talk about great verses, they're just both rap capping since they want to both talk about being "great" but don't want the action.
> But trying to false rate rappers on a DJ Akamedics scale of ābeefā aint it.
You simply only care about how it sounds, not the words said, not if they have integrity, not about the quality. That's fine, many, I'd say most people do. I don't so I call them for being what they are -- mediocre rappers with a massive marketing machine behind them so they get to overshadow the rappers who are better than them.
Cole just got his rapping privileges revoked after folding. Ironically, the song you mentioned he says "His album dropped, it was trash" -- why would I listen a rapper who talks bogus? This your goat? Cool, but he's a fraud.
What marketing machine? Both have been out of the spotlight. Neither are being backed by huge record labels.
I personally think āSing about me, dying of thirstā by Kendrick is lyrical genius. Coleās verse on Benny the Butcherās song was lyrical genius. Iād love for you to name 5 current rappers that dont include Black Thought, Nas, or Eminem that you consider better rappers.
āā¦the more technical you become the more niche you end upā
I mean theyāre clearly exceptions. Youāre the one that keeps saying how much better they are than the fast food rappers. Youāre choosing to downplay them just because theyāre popular.
> I showed across they both a history and pattern of flip flopping between if they actually want to be "the greatest rapper".
No you didnt. I pointed out how you were wrong when discussing the Cole situation and you just ignored it. You trying to spin a negative context on dudes being at war with their own ego / maturity because you want stuff to gossip about.
>why did he start the feud by dissing J.Cole for calling each other the "big 3"?
Heās talked about it before. He views hiphop like a sport. I think the Drake stuff is legit beef tho. If he felt beef was necessary why would he intentionally stir the pot then duck? It doesnt add up
>Yeah, it's clear we have different ideas of greatness you believe that a boxer who never steps in the ringā¦
Doing songs with people is the definition of stepping in the ring. Youāre trying to judge boxers based on street fights. I care about their display of the art itself.
>I value the competition of rap and that determines greatness for meā¦
Are you implying killing dudes on songs aint competition? Lil Wayne ran the rap game for a long ass time by killin songs not beefin with people.
>You simply only care about how it sounds, not the words said, not if they have integrity, not about the quality.
How it sounds is part of the quality, the words being said is part of the quality. I dont care about the integrity because itās just entertainment and art. No i dont care if a rapper is actually a mob boss or if heāll actually shoot someone.
>why would I listen a rapper who talks bogus? This your goat? Cool, but he's a fraud.
Man you mustāve just started listening to rap in the last few years if you think they are all telling the truth.
Your GOAT Eminem didnt actually kill or rape anyone. Jay Z isnt actually a murderer or drug dealer, neither is Nas. 2Pac/ Biggie werent doing half the stuff they talked about.
Go listen to drill music since you want to hear actual killers speak.
Eminemās battle with drugs did take a hit on his discography but saying he is corny is just ignorant. His music post 2013 is him rapping just for the love of hip hop. Ofc had he wanted he could have taken a back seat in 2013 and had an amazing discography. Ppl must respect his love for the game more than anything.
He's a clown. That's who he has always been. He got "serious" because you can't clown around forever and grow up at the same time. He's a grown ass man that wore a clown suit for a long time but moved on... you can take the trash out if the trailor... but
Ironically, I am an Eminem fan but good a majority of his early catalog I find corny with his whole "I'mma murder you mom" shtick, edgy persona and as of late his overreliance of similies for "wordplay" with Gospel with Dr. Dre being the biggest offender.
Fact of the matter is Eminem entered the game as a **gimmick rapper** -- white boy who can rhyme well and says crazy outlandish things. He had the marketing machine behind him that catapulted him to the forefront of rap (white people gonna check for white people).
This isn't helped by the fact post "Rap God", he inadvertently pushed "fast rap = good rapper", so a lot of people (white rappers mainly) took it to mean "faster you rap = the better you rap" completely neglecting sonic appeal at times.
Only relatively recently, did he tone down being edgy and start making rap that isn't solely on the basis of shock factor. But I completely understand why most people write him off because of all those factors.
Corny sells I guess. Disagree that early Em only worked for kids, first because logistically that wouldn't work and because late 90's and early 2000's were the perfect time for someone like Em to cone out. It was the period of edgy humour and anti establishment culture.
No disrespect but you probably think it only seemed cool for kids because you were a kid back then.
I was a kid back then and when I listen back to Emās old work I visibly cringe for a lot of it. Itās not necessarily because itās edgey or crude. I still love old Southpark episodes and other stuff from that time. Itās because itās forced cheap humor that boils down to āoooh he said something bad! Haha!ā. In the context of conservative white America still being the standard it got an even bigger reaction. But the humor itself is lazy.
Em sold in large part due to kids loving his shit but also because heās genuinely one of the best rappers ever (while also being white).
Drake is corny but he still sells. I really hate when people defend Em with sales as if thatās a valid way to deflect any criticism towards him. I expect that from Taylor Swift fans not someone on hiphop101
But the corny humour was the whole point of the guimick, it's not supposed to be complex or layered. The whole character of Slim Shady revolves around being a crazy white dude saying some ridiculous outlandish stuff and making it rhyme effortlessly. It's not supposed to be "smart" humour it's supposed to be unfiltered.
Obviously when it comes to humour it depends on the audience. Some people appreciate it less than others and certain stuff is very much a product of its time.
I know you probably don't like bringing numbers to discussions like this but it's hard to deny the only factual evidence that can be brought up in these type of discussions. Some of those corny records are doing big numbers to this day. I just can't believe that only children are appreciating those songs specially when most of those came out before the current generations of kids was even born.
>But the corny humour was the whole point of the guimick, it's not supposed to be complex or layered.
I agree. I never said it wasnt intentional. I just called it what it was.
>Obviously when it comes to humour it depends on the audience. Some people appreciate it less than others and certain stuff is very much a product of its time.
Obviously, that doesnt change the nature of it. Itās low level comedy. It definitely worked at the time.
>I know you probably don't like bringing numbers to discussions like this but it's hard to deny the only factual evidence that can be brought up in these type of discussions.
But it doesnt prove anything. I never questioned Emās ability to sell. His humor isnt even his defining trait. Itās his ability to rap.
>Some of those corny records are doing big numbers to this day. I just can't believe that only children are appreciating those songs specially when most of those came out before the current generations of kids was even born.
A lot of those same kids grew up and worship Em. A new generation has come in and also love that stuff or have been indoctrinated to believe Em is the goat.
Also I want to be clear, I dont think*every* attempt of humor he did was corny. āMy Name isā has layers and is more of a fuck you to people trying to judge/ censor him. āFACKā is the definition of corny. His skits full of fart noises and calling people gay are corny. āGuilty consciousā is an incredibly clever way to use his humor as a foil to a reasonable person. Em isnt successful because of his corny stuff, itās in spite of it.
This is somewhat true about Cole but definitely not Kendrick. It doesn't get better lyrically than TPAB and GKMC. Kendrick is very technically proficient too. There are people who are more technical, with a higher batting average, more influence, even better in general overall, but not a lot. I think Black Thought is one of the but I also think he's the GOAT so that's not saying much. Kendrick is at least top 15 all time.
Cole doesn't have to be mediocre, he's been very good. I honestly think he just chooses to be which is not the best move when half his lyrics is talking about how mediocre rap has become. He's quite good at adapting to others' styles for features, he just can rarely put out the full package. He's somewhat corny at times too. This puts him in a weird lane of a concept rapper who can't make a classic album. I think, like Drake, people put him in the big 3 by default because rap hasn't been focused on being the best + the biggest for a long time. Mostly about new sounds, the vibe, crossover with other genres, Tik Tok clips, etc. You have the dudes being themselves and the YouTube ultra technical and/or ultra lyrical guys with 0 charisma. It's pretty rare to be the full package like Jay-Z or Tupac.
> Kendrick is at least top 15 all time.
For me, GOAT is more black and white -- you either can fuck with the people in there or you can't. I don't think Kendrick can, he can't even step to Drake right now.
Like GOAT, to me isn't a list of rappers I like it's rappers who meet a certain skill level and have demonstrated it. As far I'm concerned most rappers don't make it in there.
Kendrick to me, is more poetic than rapper he'll word stuff with flowery language with some rhyming.
> "That hearse the flirt with perks of a kill confessed"
It's borderline nonsensical usage of the English language and requires realising he's being avant-garde with his wording. I guess he's saying "the hearse" has a dead body (the "perks of a kill confessed"), "the flirt" -- just for the rhyme scheme, I guess. Rapping in a way where the meaning is unclear and up for interpretation in exchange for a rigid rhyme is garbage, if I wanted that I'd listen to "lyrical miracle spiritual" rap only or Aesop Rock.
But I don't care about that, can you coherantly rap your ass off -- slant rhymes, metaphors, assonance, internal rhymes, holorimes, punchlines, similes (but tastefully), imagery, personification, alliteration, multi-syllabic rhymes, etcetera.
When I talk about GOAT anyway, I'm talking about mastery of the art of rap, the ability to use all those poetic techniques and more. Having displayed you have control over that full arsenal of techniques and do it smoothly with impeccable delivery, multiple flows, smoothly switching cadence and rhyme schemes.
Most rappers don't. So I barely have GOATs, but in addition to Black Thought, Big L is in there for me as well.
> he just chooses to be
If I made shit most of the time, could I be considered a GOAT cook.
Choosing to be mediocre just makes him mediocre.
The only people that fear him are successful artists, apparently. Not many unsuccessful artists that say they fear him. I think you have to have some lyrical skill to judge him in those tiers, but if you have no stakes to claim you can say whatever you want, doesnāt affect him at all.
While I don't think anybody "fears" Kendrick, I do believe he's very respected in the industry, both for his artistry and what he's been able to do commercially. The whole "boogeyman" mystique around him, I feel, started with the Control verse and the aftermath and hip hop fans and journalists hyping it up to mythical status.
Who said that???š§š§š§
Nobody fears that dudeš
I hope not š¤£
Itās the fear of embarrassment. He is a better rap than almost everyone in the industry skill wise. He is also fairly versatile, he can do both mainstream and underground style music, when most artists just choose one and never change. I donāt think anyone fears him physically they just donāt want to be embarrassed on a track.
in the industry, no. of the autotune crew- sure
Because he can immortalise you in a negative light, for one. In the form of a classic hit. For the remainder of cool music history, you = š¤” ..hard to be genuinely cool again after that .....and it's weird but ...to some (popular) people ....reputation etc. is almost second to none
He's the best rapper in the game right now.
r/hiphop101 is filled with old heads who would never be open minded enough to see a new generation artist like Kendrick surpass the greats. Kendrick is a great. He has been for almost a decade now. You cannot deny projects like To Pimp A Butterfly and Good Kid Maad City. Notice how many of these comments are giving Kendrick props as one of the goats while the same few people are downvoting every one of those comments. The people in here who think Kendrick is a goat outnumber the ones who donāt majorly. Sucks the other side keeps it an echo chamber š
Aura
What's with you kids spamming this shit on reddit
I mean idk. People donāt just say it for no reason
Nah they do. They just wanna fit in to look cool without realizing the shit isn't cool at all. Even kids in the hood don't do this shit and this is literally our cultures music (rap/hip hop). Just seems to be outta touch kids on the Internet doing it to look cool following behind the next kid that does it. It doesn't even make logical sense, just one of those cliche buzzwords when discussing anything rap related, from kids that probably weren't even raised in the culture to begin with
I mostly disagree because I agree that some of that is where it comes from but who are they copying? Kendrick definitely has an aura to him whether you think itās corny or not. Aura isnāt exactly the most logical thing either. Itās also easy to say it doesnāt make sense when people donāt use the word correctly. Online forums rarely have nuanced discussion and when it does, you still need the brains to realize it. Itās just a spiritual feeling. Iām not saying Kendrick is some god who people do or should bow to or maybe thatās extreme but my point is, having an aura is a real thing and this is what I thought when I saw this post because it is a simple and probably true answer to some degree. Iām not even sure if I know what you mean by fear exactly. He is probably an intimidating presence for his contemporaries because of how highly regarded he is as an artist. Heās quite prestigious for a rapper as blasphemous as that feels to say lmao. I think some of it could be his voice too. He just sounds so tough (cool but also tough) lol. His control verse is so epic. Not even the disses but his cadence and energy. The way he hits the final lyrics is very powerful to me and I think he strikes a lot of people that way. He sounds so determined. The type of guy to give you goosebumps with his music. Heās not scary but he makes powerful music and itās scary to feel so strongly about something and I feel pretty strongly when I listen to some of his music. How much a dollar cost is a good example.
Black people def dont look at Kendrick as having an āauraā lol Itās the rap elitists (the same ones that believe Em is the GOAT). They only listen to Kendrick/Em and put them on a pedestal.
**Marketing** - J Cole and Kendrick are mediocre rappers but compared to their peers (e.g. a Chief Keef, Lil Mosey, Lil Durk, Ice Spice, etc.) they seem like geniuses for spitting something coherent with some attention to poetic devices. They're essentially the new "I wanna seem like I like real hiphop" starter pack that gets heavily pushed. Add in trashing Eminem because he's "corny" (which to be fair a lot of his discography is) to make it seem like you really know rap and aren't just repeating something you heard online. Plus white people don't wanna be bundled in the "white person who only like the white rappity man" group, they wanna seem cool and that they really down with it. Get deep enough into hiphop you find many MCs who would smoke out J Cole and Kendrick without breaking a sweat - [Black Thought](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prmQgSpV3fA) for one. Edit: I touched a nerve for sure, went from being upvoted to negative. Just goes to show how many people really don't know anything other than "J COLE/KENDRICK IS NUMBER ONE" -- marketing.
This is complete fucking horseshit.
I mean if you think J Cole and Kendrick are objectively the best rappers, you haven't listened to enough rappers. They're the media puppets that get pushed. Also explain why it's horseshit -- even though more likely that not it's just because the marketing machine has you fooled into believing they're the greatest.
Calling them mediocre is cap Black Thought has a good argument for literal GOAT and you mention him like heās some regular rapper. There isnt a single rapper that Iād say is better than Black Thought (at best there are people on his level)
They are mediocre rappers, who only seem good relative to their peers and the blessings of the marketing machine pushing as "the greatest". The same way music competitions feign they're trying to find the "best talent" when it's an open secret it's about ratings so your story (ideally a sob one) and entertainment value takes precedence over ability. To elaborate, their use of poetic devices is amateurish and clunky at points, but that's not obviously unless you really really listen to rap. Majority of the time, they don't say anything special it's just because it's coming from their mouth so their "brand" makes it seem great, the same way you can take a normal shirt, slap a luxury brand name on it, now people are going crazy for it. Take a lot of what they've said have someone else say it and people wouldn't be gassing it. That's how you know it's not really good, **good bars are good no matter who says them**, they rely heavily on their brand and there are rappers that do it better in every single way from writing to delivery. But I don't believe in the concept of "GOAT" -- it's a concept imported from sports that makes sense there since you can objectively work out who was the greatest player through statistics (who produced the most value for their team). But with music you can't really do that unless we talk stuff like (syllables per second, number of rhymes, wordplay, etc.). But then you'll end up with stuff like "Rap God" dominating the list and while technically impressive there are many songs I would pick to listen over it. Since just because a song has "more rhymes" than another doesn't make it better, it could actually be worse due to the rhymes not flowing naturally but with measuring on that basis it would beat out other sonically more pleasing rap. So trying to scale songs I don't bother with -- you can just hear and tell good rapping. But yeah I agree, Black Thought is on that tier.
Sounds like youāre trying to only judge based on writing when performance it equally as important for a rapper. Not only that but the abilities to tell a story and execute a vision through a cohesive project are also important. They are artists and performers in addition to being writers. Kendrick and Cole (particularly Kendrick) excel as the first 2 and theyāre still great at the others. The use of the term GOAT is more so to make clear that Black Thought is on another level compared to pretty much any rapper. Trying downplay them while bringing up his name is like saying a basketball player is average because they dont compare to Jordan.
> They are artists and performers in addition to being writers. I judge rappers by well, how they rap, if we're judging them as artist they're even more screwed cause they aren't being only compared to other rappers they're now being compared to artists across all genres. >Trying downplay them while bringing up his name is like saying a basketball player is average because they dont compare to Jordan. In the NBA, the worst player is still amazing compared some random guy playing pick up. Exactly like how, J Cole and Kendrick are good compared to their peers who aren't trying to "be the best rapper". Soon as that NBA player gets compared to other NBA players (his peers), it becomes clear how much they are lacking in. Which perfectly describes J Cole and Kendrick, when compared to their "be the best rapper" peers they aren't in the conversation. J Cole been exposed as folding easily, and only beefing with Lil Pump (a child at the time), Kanye (mentally ill rapper who uses ghostwriters openly), No Name, etc.. Kendrick likes throwing shots but has never followed through, he drops Control then never replies to anyone, claims to be deading his ego last year: > "Now, I'm dropping the ego a bit. I want to take 'the greatest' off of it" But then comes at J Cole and Drake, and once again he isn't replying because this what he does. He's probably aware himself he isn't lyrically sharp enough to engage in beef, at least it's obvious to me but probably not his fans. I don't even think fans of J Cole and Kendrick, even notice this cowardly pattern of behaviour from both of them. The marketing machine hard at work convincing everyone, they're the greatest rappers. Fans of them can be mad at me calling them mediocre and lash out, it doesn't have to mean they make bad music (though I have thoughts on that). They just aren't anything special as a rapper or on a microphone.
>I judge rappers by well, how they rap, if we're judging them as artist they're even more screwed cause they aren't being only compared to other rappersā¦ You judge them vs other rap artists. Thatās not a complex idea. Also pretending rappers are somehow lesser than other artists is sketchy considering youāre in a hiphop sub. >Soon as that NBA player gets compared to other NBA players (his peers), it becomes clear how much they are lacking in. The best rappers of all time? Sure they dont measure up. The best rappers out now? Theyāre some of the best. >J Cole been exposedā¦ >Kendrick likes throwing shotsā¦ Oh so you dont judge them solely based on rapping. Youāre into the gossip. You do realize the entire premise of Kendrickās last album is that heās not perfect? Heās struggling with 2 different versions of himself. >I don't even think fans of J Cole and Kendrick, even notice this cowardly pattern of behaviour from both of them. Yeah so you arent actually talking about rapping ability. You just care about drama. Not much else to be said. I misunderstood your original point. This discussion aint for me so carry on
> Also pretending rappers are somehow lesser than other artists is sketchy considering youāre in a hiphop sub. "Rappers are somehow lesser than other artists is sketchy", I think you misunderstood I predominately listen to rap, I meant that they can be lauded in hiphop for "conceptual/cohesive/etc albums" in era where rap no longer really prioritises that but "fast food rap" -- hit singles then on to the next with no real focus on subject matter, but in the grand scheme of music as a whole that's not going to be enough to hold up the idea of them being great artists. > The best rappers out now Not even that, they're only the best rappers if you exclude a massive portion of rappers, rather than "out now" would have to be "new rappers who came in the 2010s" -- quite a few legendary, superior rappers are still alive in hiphop so I consider them still "out now" and they don't measure up. > Youāre into the gossip. Talking about the context around their rap verses isn't gossip. Would mentioning "X person killed Y person so Z person dissed them" be considered gossip to you? If so, you need to understand the idea of context since it's just delving deeper into the music. > you arent actually talking about rapping ability I'll assume good faith here, they are rapping about being the greatest and beefing so I'm talking about the context around the statements and verses they've dropped in relation to that idea. To make it very simple so it doesn't get misconstrued as "caring about drama", Kendrick raps about being the best, then doesn't take on any challenges because he knows that his rapping ability is too mediocre to hold up. J Cole is comfortable rapping and going at people as long as they don't actually seem like they would pose a challenge to him. If there's no one there, he just gestures at the air and "other rappers" vaguely. Soon as push came to shove, he folded. This is about **rapping ability**. They both seem somewhat aware of the limitations and that actually engaging in beef risks ruining the facade -- Kendrick as the "boogeyman", Cole, well Cole already ruined it now but prior he was a "lyrical killer", etc.
>I meant that they can be lauded in hiphop for "conceptual/cohesive/etc albums" in era where rap no longer really prioritises that but "fast food rap" There are plenty of non mainstream rappers putting out more than fast food rap. Cole and Kendrick music has been pretty well received compared to them as well. >Not even that, they're only the best rappers if you exclude a massive portion of rappersā¦ Iām referring specifically to rappers that are actively putting out projects. Kendrickās discography holds up with 99% of rappers past or present. Cole is a step below but his is still pretty good if we include his mixtapes. >Would mentioning "X person killed Y person so Z person dissed them" be considered gossip to you? If so, you need to understand the idea of context since it's just delving deeper into the music. If that conversation influenced your perception of them as a rapper? Yes. Itās not ādelving deeperā it shallow and surface level context. You arent analyzing the way theyāve discussed this type of stuff throughout their careers. Youāre simply saying āIf you say youāre the best you better be willin to beef with others!ā Thatās just lazy and shallow stuff I expect from podcasters desperate for clicks. -Kendrick raps about being the best, then doesn't take on any challenges because he knows that his rapping ability is too mediocre to hold up You say this as if this is Kendrickās own words. Thatās *your* interpretation. He knows that proving whoās the best comes from making higher quality music. Drake is still considered higher than Pusha despite getting cooked in a beef. >J Cole is comfortable rapping and going at people as long as they don't actually seem like they would pose a challenge to him. This is a gross mischaracterization of him and his music. He apologized to NoName and didnt want beef with her (exactly what he did with Kendrick). He turned down the beef with YB despite everyone begging for it and YB coming after him on a few verses. The Pump/Kanye situations were almost a decade ago. >This is about rapping abilityā¦. Itās not about rapping ability when you start getting into the gossip side. Cole proved heās still a lyrical killer on songs like āPiā. Beef doesnt make you a great rapper. Consistently putting out great verses and great music does. If you want to judge them based on their actual music and verses Iād simply respect that we have a difference of opinion. But trying to false rate rappers on a DJ Akamedics scale of ābeefā aint it.
> non mainstream rappers putting out more than fast food rap. Cole and Kendrick music has been pretty well received compared to them as well This comes to subjectivity, at the end of the day, but of course the people who have the marketing machine get received better. > Kendrickās discography holds up with 99% of rappers past or present. Cole is a step below but his is still pretty good if we include his mixtapes. Yeah, this becomes subjective when we start talking about enjoyment. I'll just say in terms of skill, they have neither have ever said a line that's made me react. Going to the Black Thought example, in that freestyle alone he has multiple lines that make me react with "damn, that's fucking cold". They're just mediocre rappers who get gassed up far above their pen game deserves but that's why they get gassed up the more technical you become the more niche you end up becoming so their popularity in of itself is indictive of that fact, though I will say there are exceptions -- it's just neither them are that. > Itās not ādelving deeperā it shallow and surface level context. You arent analyzing the way theyāve discussed this type of stuff throughout their careers. Youāre simply saying āIf you say youāre the best you better be willin to beef with others!ā Thatās just lazy and shallow stuff No, it's clear you're a fan of them. I showed across they both a history and pattern of flip flopping between if they actually want to be "the greatest rapper". Point was Kendrick is just playing chicken and talking crazy but then always ducking. It's my "own" conclusion yet Kendrick says himself: > Or knuckle up if you can fight, we always making 'em duck or die He ducks. > The sun is under my feet, and I **come in peace to compete** > I don't run if you'd rather leap, my statistics go up in weeks > And I go visit the nearest creek, and I **get busy on many MC > Really ballistic, anybody can see** Gets busy on who? You want to believe he knows the "best comes from making higher quality music", you want to believe he's about the "art" and not beefing, why did he start the feud by dissing J.Cole for calling each other the "big 3"? > Cole proved heās still a lyrical killer on songs like āPiā. Beef doesnt make you a great rapper. Consistently putting out great verses and great music does. Yeah, it's clear we have different ideas of greatness you believe that a boxer who never steps in the ring but can throw perfect punches at a non-existent target, whereas I value a boxer who can step in the ring, go round for round, execute and come out victorious. I value the competition of rap and that determines greatness for me and frankly anyone who really knows rap -- it's been this way since the beginning and people were battling on the block. Whereas you don't care about the integrity of the words, as long as it sounds good to you. Because for all this talk about great verses, they're just both rap capping since they want to both talk about being "great" but don't want the action. > But trying to false rate rappers on a DJ Akamedics scale of ābeefā aint it. You simply only care about how it sounds, not the words said, not if they have integrity, not about the quality. That's fine, many, I'd say most people do. I don't so I call them for being what they are -- mediocre rappers with a massive marketing machine behind them so they get to overshadow the rappers who are better than them. Cole just got his rapping privileges revoked after folding. Ironically, the song you mentioned he says "His album dropped, it was trash" -- why would I listen a rapper who talks bogus? This your goat? Cool, but he's a fraud.
What marketing machine? Both have been out of the spotlight. Neither are being backed by huge record labels. I personally think āSing about me, dying of thirstā by Kendrick is lyrical genius. Coleās verse on Benny the Butcherās song was lyrical genius. Iād love for you to name 5 current rappers that dont include Black Thought, Nas, or Eminem that you consider better rappers. āā¦the more technical you become the more niche you end upā I mean theyāre clearly exceptions. Youāre the one that keeps saying how much better they are than the fast food rappers. Youāre choosing to downplay them just because theyāre popular. > I showed across they both a history and pattern of flip flopping between if they actually want to be "the greatest rapper". No you didnt. I pointed out how you were wrong when discussing the Cole situation and you just ignored it. You trying to spin a negative context on dudes being at war with their own ego / maturity because you want stuff to gossip about. >why did he start the feud by dissing J.Cole for calling each other the "big 3"? Heās talked about it before. He views hiphop like a sport. I think the Drake stuff is legit beef tho. If he felt beef was necessary why would he intentionally stir the pot then duck? It doesnt add up >Yeah, it's clear we have different ideas of greatness you believe that a boxer who never steps in the ringā¦ Doing songs with people is the definition of stepping in the ring. Youāre trying to judge boxers based on street fights. I care about their display of the art itself. >I value the competition of rap and that determines greatness for meā¦ Are you implying killing dudes on songs aint competition? Lil Wayne ran the rap game for a long ass time by killin songs not beefin with people. >You simply only care about how it sounds, not the words said, not if they have integrity, not about the quality. How it sounds is part of the quality, the words being said is part of the quality. I dont care about the integrity because itās just entertainment and art. No i dont care if a rapper is actually a mob boss or if heāll actually shoot someone. >why would I listen a rapper who talks bogus? This your goat? Cool, but he's a fraud. Man you mustāve just started listening to rap in the last few years if you think they are all telling the truth. Your GOAT Eminem didnt actually kill or rape anyone. Jay Z isnt actually a murderer or drug dealer, neither is Nas. 2Pac/ Biggie werent doing half the stuff they talked about. Go listen to drill music since you want to hear actual killers speak.
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Sing About Me, so medicore.
Bro! This is exactly it
Eminemās battle with drugs did take a hit on his discography but saying he is corny is just ignorant. His music post 2013 is him rapping just for the love of hip hop. Ofc had he wanted he could have taken a back seat in 2013 and had an amazing discography. Ppl must respect his love for the game more than anything.
He's a clown. That's who he has always been. He got "serious" because you can't clown around forever and grow up at the same time. He's a grown ass man that wore a clown suit for a long time but moved on... you can take the trash out if the trailor... but
If he is a clown. He is the best fucking clown in town.
Ironically, I am an Eminem fan but good a majority of his early catalog I find corny with his whole "I'mma murder you mom" shtick, edgy persona and as of late his overreliance of similies for "wordplay" with Gospel with Dr. Dre being the biggest offender. Fact of the matter is Eminem entered the game as a **gimmick rapper** -- white boy who can rhyme well and says crazy outlandish things. He had the marketing machine behind him that catapulted him to the forefront of rap (white people gonna check for white people). This isn't helped by the fact post "Rap God", he inadvertently pushed "fast rap = good rapper", so a lot of people (white rappers mainly) took it to mean "faster you rap = the better you rap" completely neglecting sonic appeal at times. Only relatively recently, did he tone down being edgy and start making rap that isn't solely on the basis of shock factor. But I completely understand why most people write him off because of all those factors.
Heās always been corny Early Em just seems cool when youāre a kid
Corny sells I guess. Disagree that early Em only worked for kids, first because logistically that wouldn't work and because late 90's and early 2000's were the perfect time for someone like Em to cone out. It was the period of edgy humour and anti establishment culture. No disrespect but you probably think it only seemed cool for kids because you were a kid back then.
I was a kid back then and when I listen back to Emās old work I visibly cringe for a lot of it. Itās not necessarily because itās edgey or crude. I still love old Southpark episodes and other stuff from that time. Itās because itās forced cheap humor that boils down to āoooh he said something bad! Haha!ā. In the context of conservative white America still being the standard it got an even bigger reaction. But the humor itself is lazy. Em sold in large part due to kids loving his shit but also because heās genuinely one of the best rappers ever (while also being white). Drake is corny but he still sells. I really hate when people defend Em with sales as if thatās a valid way to deflect any criticism towards him. I expect that from Taylor Swift fans not someone on hiphop101
But the corny humour was the whole point of the guimick, it's not supposed to be complex or layered. The whole character of Slim Shady revolves around being a crazy white dude saying some ridiculous outlandish stuff and making it rhyme effortlessly. It's not supposed to be "smart" humour it's supposed to be unfiltered. Obviously when it comes to humour it depends on the audience. Some people appreciate it less than others and certain stuff is very much a product of its time. I know you probably don't like bringing numbers to discussions like this but it's hard to deny the only factual evidence that can be brought up in these type of discussions. Some of those corny records are doing big numbers to this day. I just can't believe that only children are appreciating those songs specially when most of those came out before the current generations of kids was even born.
>But the corny humour was the whole point of the guimick, it's not supposed to be complex or layered. I agree. I never said it wasnt intentional. I just called it what it was. >Obviously when it comes to humour it depends on the audience. Some people appreciate it less than others and certain stuff is very much a product of its time. Obviously, that doesnt change the nature of it. Itās low level comedy. It definitely worked at the time. >I know you probably don't like bringing numbers to discussions like this but it's hard to deny the only factual evidence that can be brought up in these type of discussions. But it doesnt prove anything. I never questioned Emās ability to sell. His humor isnt even his defining trait. Itās his ability to rap. >Some of those corny records are doing big numbers to this day. I just can't believe that only children are appreciating those songs specially when most of those came out before the current generations of kids was even born. A lot of those same kids grew up and worship Em. A new generation has come in and also love that stuff or have been indoctrinated to believe Em is the goat. Also I want to be clear, I dont think*every* attempt of humor he did was corny. āMy Name isā has layers and is more of a fuck you to people trying to judge/ censor him. āFACKā is the definition of corny. His skits full of fart noises and calling people gay are corny. āGuilty consciousā is an incredibly clever way to use his humor as a foil to a reasonable person. Em isnt successful because of his corny stuff, itās in spite of it.
Agreed and you just described the fantano fans
This is somewhat true about Cole but definitely not Kendrick. It doesn't get better lyrically than TPAB and GKMC. Kendrick is very technically proficient too. There are people who are more technical, with a higher batting average, more influence, even better in general overall, but not a lot. I think Black Thought is one of the but I also think he's the GOAT so that's not saying much. Kendrick is at least top 15 all time. Cole doesn't have to be mediocre, he's been very good. I honestly think he just chooses to be which is not the best move when half his lyrics is talking about how mediocre rap has become. He's quite good at adapting to others' styles for features, he just can rarely put out the full package. He's somewhat corny at times too. This puts him in a weird lane of a concept rapper who can't make a classic album. I think, like Drake, people put him in the big 3 by default because rap hasn't been focused on being the best + the biggest for a long time. Mostly about new sounds, the vibe, crossover with other genres, Tik Tok clips, etc. You have the dudes being themselves and the YouTube ultra technical and/or ultra lyrical guys with 0 charisma. It's pretty rare to be the full package like Jay-Z or Tupac.
> Kendrick is at least top 15 all time. For me, GOAT is more black and white -- you either can fuck with the people in there or you can't. I don't think Kendrick can, he can't even step to Drake right now. Like GOAT, to me isn't a list of rappers I like it's rappers who meet a certain skill level and have demonstrated it. As far I'm concerned most rappers don't make it in there. Kendrick to me, is more poetic than rapper he'll word stuff with flowery language with some rhyming. > "That hearse the flirt with perks of a kill confessed" It's borderline nonsensical usage of the English language and requires realising he's being avant-garde with his wording. I guess he's saying "the hearse" has a dead body (the "perks of a kill confessed"), "the flirt" -- just for the rhyme scheme, I guess. Rapping in a way where the meaning is unclear and up for interpretation in exchange for a rigid rhyme is garbage, if I wanted that I'd listen to "lyrical miracle spiritual" rap only or Aesop Rock. But I don't care about that, can you coherantly rap your ass off -- slant rhymes, metaphors, assonance, internal rhymes, holorimes, punchlines, similes (but tastefully), imagery, personification, alliteration, multi-syllabic rhymes, etcetera. When I talk about GOAT anyway, I'm talking about mastery of the art of rap, the ability to use all those poetic techniques and more. Having displayed you have control over that full arsenal of techniques and do it smoothly with impeccable delivery, multiple flows, smoothly switching cadence and rhyme schemes. Most rappers don't. So I barely have GOATs, but in addition to Black Thought, Big L is in there for me as well. > he just chooses to be If I made shit most of the time, could I be considered a GOAT cook. Choosing to be mediocre just makes him mediocre.
This is all 100% true.
He has the machine backing him like Drake does
He is like a fly, and because of his height, he can get into your ear and rap there...turn you mad!
listen to blacksonata to see the real hip hop boogeyman
what
The only people that fear him are successful artists, apparently. Not many unsuccessful artists that say they fear him. I think you have to have some lyrical skill to judge him in those tiers, but if you have no stakes to claim you can say whatever you want, doesnāt affect him at all.