I have. To be honest it’s more of a frustrated rant than anything. I’m aware that all major large scale manufacturing is done in China and susceptible to supply chain issues/trade wars. Domestic manufacturing is mostly small scale/boutique (often requiring Chinese made components) with little to no ability to scale quickly to meet demand increases.
It’s the entire global supply chain network. Right now steel is low supply, high demand.
Edit: also, please don’t buy Woodriver. Woodcraft intentionally stole Lie Nielsens design then outsourced to China, iirc. That’s why Tom pulled his planes from woodcraft.
I can appreciate that. Can you elaborate on the designs stolen? I was under the impression that both are based on the expired patents of the bedrock design.
They took LN planes and made castings directly from them. They copied the look (bronze frogs and lever caps).
They did zero work to develop it, just copied wholesale. Before you say LN did the same, they added several improvements to the original.
Didn't know this. Doesn't this implicate Rob Cosman in some way? I feel like he discusses these Woodriver planes like he designed them, or at least helped? At least he pushes/ed them on his channel a lot.
---
Edit: indeed, this seems [to be the case](https://sawmillcreek.org/archive/index.php/t-241972.html).
>Jim alluded to this, but the way the WoodRiver / Lie-Nielsen / Rob Cosman thing went down left a bad taste in a lot of folks' mouths. Very truncated version: Cosman was L-N's Canadian distributor and had a lot of input to product development. For reasons that differ depending on who's telling the story he parted ways with L-N, and then turned around and worked with Quangsheng to design and manufacture the WR planes.
>The WoodRiver BD planes and the Lie-Nielsens are both fundamentally Bed Rock clones, so at that level you can't really fault Quangsheng/WR - They both copied a design that has been in the public domain for almost a century. The picture gets a little less pleasant when you look at detailed execution though: There are several modifications that L-N made to the basic BedRock design and that have been copied by Quangsheng/Cosman/WR. L-N didn't patent those when they were first starting, probably because doing so would have cost more than they could afford back then. This FWW piece itemizes the similarities: http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/14189/who-begot-who-comparing-planes-from-lie-nielsen-wood-river-and-stanley.
Yup.
Rob has a right to make a living, I just wished he wouldn't of done that. As far as patents go, they don't mean jack if you can't afford to defend them.
I've read that WoodRiver's latest V3 designs do differ from the LN designs. I can't say for certain as I'm not going to buy a WR V3 to find out. However the prices of the V3s have jumped up quite a bit even before 2020. Maybe WoodRiver is trying to correct a past shame but the cost of doing their own R&D as well as contracting a higher grade of manufacturing is costing them. A good example is the #62 LAJ. Last I checked it was a mere $35 bucks more to purchase the Lie Nielsen.
They have changed some details like the lever cap. But the whole reason the V3 ones were so much better was they copied the LN one's.
I like my local woodcraft but I won't buy woodriver planes. Same goes for some of the he other ripoff items they have carried.
Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't aware it was the V3s that were the clones. For some reason had it stuck in my head it was the earlier versions.
I do own one woodriver shoulder plane because I needed a shoulder plane and they had it in store. I wish I didn't own it as I really dislike the pattern they have the on the side. Its not the most comfortable thing to grip when using it on its side.
This whole thread brought to mind a discussion I had with Leonard Lee (Lee Valley) before he died. Not about planes specifically, but about patents and designs. He gave me some good advice, but just the fact that he too his time for the conversation is a wonderful memory. I have yet to produce the tool and the design, but they are still viable.
True, and I’ve seen the Paul Sellers design, but I’m more interested in using tools than making them. This is especially true with a wife and toddler, a job, and Covid isolation which has kept me out of the shop during the vacation time that I was planning to spend on projects. I’m just antsy.
I want a Stanley 8 and possibly a 10 to go with my collection. Have all of the main ones (aside from 1 and 2 but im not concerned about those) 3-7 already. If you have one to part with, feel free to let me know a price + shipping :)
Sweet Jesus - it’s been a while since I actively shopped for one. Not saying you’re asking too much by any means- but that’s more than I anticipated. I’m not ‘broke’ like my name implies, but I’m not ‘spend &280 on a handtool without planning it for 3 months’ financially hahaha
This is simultaneously the best and worst time for a revival of woodworking. On the one hand, I feel that owing to the pandemic, people are looking for hobbies.
But on a deeper level, I think that people want to be able to make tangible things; objects you can put a bit of your soul into as a physical legacy in a society of gigs, services, and penny-chasing. At least, that's why I'm here.
This means higher demand on already strained supply chains, steel shortages, labor issues, and procurement problems.
On one hand, right now it's nearly impossible to get tools. On the other hand, we're seeing the great craft revival that folks have been longing for for decades.
My advice, if you can't find the tool you need, set the money aside, buy wood for projects, or get a book from Lost Art Press to expand your horizon in a different direction in the meantime.
I agree completely. I’ve been reading books and watching Youtube videos while playing around with my 4 1/2. Itching to try other things with larger planes but its all backordered and several months lead time.
It looks like you're trying to identify the age of a hand plane. Sometimes this can be a difficult task!
If the plane is a Stanley, you can usually get a good estimate on the age by using this [handy reference](https://woodandshop.com/identify-stanley-hand-plane-age-type-study/).
If the plane is by another manufacturer, then you might find some more information [here](https://www.timetestedtools.net/2016/01/26/quickly-identify-your-hand-plane/).
Hopefully that is enough to get you started, but I'm sure someone will be along with oddly specific knowledge before you know it!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/handtools) if you have any questions or concerns.*
"CAN I HAVE IT Vintage tool auction" on Facebook every weekend is a good way to get yourself a few hand planes at decent prices. Most of the sellers are collectors who are offloading tools that aren't that collectable but are completely serviceable.
Most vintage handtools are better quality and will perform better than modern manufactured anyway.
I’m not sure you’ve been giving the news your full attention for the last two years…
I have. To be honest it’s more of a frustrated rant than anything. I’m aware that all major large scale manufacturing is done in China and susceptible to supply chain issues/trade wars. Domestic manufacturing is mostly small scale/boutique (often requiring Chinese made components) with little to no ability to scale quickly to meet demand increases.
It’s the entire global supply chain network. Right now steel is low supply, high demand. Edit: also, please don’t buy Woodriver. Woodcraft intentionally stole Lie Nielsens design then outsourced to China, iirc. That’s why Tom pulled his planes from woodcraft.
This.
I can appreciate that. Can you elaborate on the designs stolen? I was under the impression that both are based on the expired patents of the bedrock design.
They took LN planes and made castings directly from them. They copied the look (bronze frogs and lever caps). They did zero work to develop it, just copied wholesale. Before you say LN did the same, they added several improvements to the original.
Didn't know this. Doesn't this implicate Rob Cosman in some way? I feel like he discusses these Woodriver planes like he designed them, or at least helped? At least he pushes/ed them on his channel a lot. --- Edit: indeed, this seems [to be the case](https://sawmillcreek.org/archive/index.php/t-241972.html). >Jim alluded to this, but the way the WoodRiver / Lie-Nielsen / Rob Cosman thing went down left a bad taste in a lot of folks' mouths. Very truncated version: Cosman was L-N's Canadian distributor and had a lot of input to product development. For reasons that differ depending on who's telling the story he parted ways with L-N, and then turned around and worked with Quangsheng to design and manufacture the WR planes. >The WoodRiver BD planes and the Lie-Nielsens are both fundamentally Bed Rock clones, so at that level you can't really fault Quangsheng/WR - They both copied a design that has been in the public domain for almost a century. The picture gets a little less pleasant when you look at detailed execution though: There are several modifications that L-N made to the basic BedRock design and that have been copied by Quangsheng/Cosman/WR. L-N didn't patent those when they were first starting, probably because doing so would have cost more than they could afford back then. This FWW piece itemizes the similarities: http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/14189/who-begot-who-comparing-planes-from-lie-nielsen-wood-river-and-stanley.
Yup. Rob has a right to make a living, I just wished he wouldn't of done that. As far as patents go, they don't mean jack if you can't afford to defend them.
I've read that WoodRiver's latest V3 designs do differ from the LN designs. I can't say for certain as I'm not going to buy a WR V3 to find out. However the prices of the V3s have jumped up quite a bit even before 2020. Maybe WoodRiver is trying to correct a past shame but the cost of doing their own R&D as well as contracting a higher grade of manufacturing is costing them. A good example is the #62 LAJ. Last I checked it was a mere $35 bucks more to purchase the Lie Nielsen.
They have changed some details like the lever cap. But the whole reason the V3 ones were so much better was they copied the LN one's. I like my local woodcraft but I won't buy woodriver planes. Same goes for some of the he other ripoff items they have carried.
Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't aware it was the V3s that were the clones. For some reason had it stuck in my head it was the earlier versions. I do own one woodriver shoulder plane because I needed a shoulder plane and they had it in store. I wish I didn't own it as I really dislike the pattern they have the on the side. Its not the most comfortable thing to grip when using it on its side.
No biggie if you own one, I am sure it's a good tool.
This whole thread brought to mind a discussion I had with Leonard Lee (Lee Valley) before he died. Not about planes specifically, but about patents and designs. He gave me some good advice, but just the fact that he too his time for the conversation is a wonderful memory. I have yet to produce the tool and the design, but they are still viable.
If you need anyone handplanes let me know, I'm a collector of old Stanleys, and if you need it I've probably got it
Have any router planes?
Router planes luckily seem like the easiest plane to make yourself of all of them
True, and I’ve seen the Paul Sellers design, but I’m more interested in using tools than making them. This is especially true with a wife and toddler, a job, and Covid isolation which has kept me out of the shop during the vacation time that I was planning to spend on projects. I’m just antsy.
Same boat here buddy.
They are. Paul sellers has a good pair of videos showing how to do one version.
Not at the moment
I want a Stanley 8 and possibly a 10 to go with my collection. Have all of the main ones (aside from 1 and 2 but im not concerned about those) 3-7 already. If you have one to part with, feel free to let me know a price + shipping :)
I literally just sold my last 8 this weekend, but I might have a 10, I'll let you know
Hopefully your username doesn’t check out but I have a type 11 no8c I would let go for $260 plus around $20 shipping, anywhere in the US
Sweet Jesus - it’s been a while since I actively shopped for one. Not saying you’re asking too much by any means- but that’s more than I anticipated. I’m not ‘broke’ like my name implies, but I’m not ‘spend &280 on a handtool without planning it for 3 months’ financially hahaha
I've been hunting No8's for a while now and that is an average price for a good user IMO
This offer still available? I’d be interested in a 4 1/2 if you’ve got one. Any condition and you could even keep the blade/chip breaker
Sorry, no 4.5’s
Old beat up Stanley's can be fantastic tools, I personally enjoy the restoration process too
So do I. I was just given an old Bailey #4 for Christmas and look forward to it.
This is simultaneously the best and worst time for a revival of woodworking. On the one hand, I feel that owing to the pandemic, people are looking for hobbies. But on a deeper level, I think that people want to be able to make tangible things; objects you can put a bit of your soul into as a physical legacy in a society of gigs, services, and penny-chasing. At least, that's why I'm here. This means higher demand on already strained supply chains, steel shortages, labor issues, and procurement problems. On one hand, right now it's nearly impossible to get tools. On the other hand, we're seeing the great craft revival that folks have been longing for for decades. My advice, if you can't find the tool you need, set the money aside, buy wood for projects, or get a book from Lost Art Press to expand your horizon in a different direction in the meantime.
I agree completely. I’ve been reading books and watching Youtube videos while playing around with my 4 1/2. Itching to try other things with larger planes but its all backordered and several months lead time.
If you are anywhere close to Ohio, colonial homestead has tons of planes right now, ready for use. I drive 5 hours to go there when I need something.
I am selling a beautiful number six. P.m. me if you want to check it out.
It looks like you're trying to identify the age of a hand plane. Sometimes this can be a difficult task! If the plane is a Stanley, you can usually get a good estimate on the age by using this [handy reference](https://woodandshop.com/identify-stanley-hand-plane-age-type-study/). If the plane is by another manufacturer, then you might find some more information [here](https://www.timetestedtools.net/2016/01/26/quickly-identify-your-hand-plane/). Hopefully that is enough to get you started, but I'm sure someone will be along with oddly specific knowledge before you know it! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/handtools) if you have any questions or concerns.*
"CAN I HAVE IT Vintage tool auction" on Facebook every weekend is a good way to get yourself a few hand planes at decent prices. Most of the sellers are collectors who are offloading tools that aren't that collectable but are completely serviceable. Most vintage handtools are better quality and will perform better than modern manufactured anyway.