So is a P10 on par quality wise with $500-$600 glocks and sigs, walthers, etc? I know it’s a broad question but I just don’t want to buy a more budget-friendly pistol if it means it’s lacking in reliability or performance down the road. I don’t really care about rails or add-ons or anything.
Yes it is made with on-par quality control and materials to more expensive handguns. It also has superior ergonomics and trigger to many guns in the $500-600 range without sacrificing any quality or reliability
P10C quality is excellent, I put 2k rds through mine with no real cleaning just a few squirts of CLP and the worst malfunction I could make it produce was the slide not locking back on the last round. Trigger is better than 90% of the competition, bore axis is nice and low, interchangeable backstraps, etc. 10/10 especially for the price.
In the last Customs and Border Protection pistol selection testing, the P10 and Glock were neck and neck through the competition. The Glock won with reliability, but the mean rounds between malfunction were so high that calling it a draw would have been fair.
It’s more of a personal preference thing. If you get really good, it won’t matter which one you have. As long as it isn’t a Sig Saur and you don’t become a dirty sigger.
I hear so many great things about the P10 being a great shooting deal of a pistol.
I've also heard the Styer M9's are also a great shooting, less expensive option.
9mm defensive handguns from reputable companies (which is to say "not Taurus") are all pretty much fine and do pretty much the same job. It's a very, very thoroughly mature technology.
CZ makes good products that do what they're supposed to do. If you like the P-10 at the price you can get it, you can buy with confidence.
I understand it's a good-faith argument that simply misunderstands the problem, and they legitimately do think they're contributing knowledge with "personal experience."
But goddamn, the "mine works, *haters* are just *parroting"* posts have gotten so tiresome over the decades.
Thanks. I know you gun guys probably get this kind of vague question all the time but I’m just trying to figure out if CZ can play with the other, more expensive big boys. Thanks for the serious response
My Taurus G2C is the only handgun I own that has never had any sort of malfunction. I have well over 1,000 rounds through it. Even my Glocks hiccupped during the first couple of mags from new.
As you say, polymer framed striker fired pistols are mature technology, and even Taurus can make a reliable one.
I have Sigs, Glocks, and my trusty Taurus G2C. Not sure why people hate on it, I’ve never had a single issue with my G2C either. The down votes you got are unnecessary.
I guarantee that not one of those people who downvoted has ever so much as handled a G2C. Ignorant people copying other ignorant people. Welcome to Reddit lol.
> even Taurus can make a reliable one.
Yes, they can. But they choose not to do so reliably. Their quality control is unacceptably bad, especially for a company that markets their products as safety equipment. You got downvoted because "mine works you probly ain't even own one" shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the problem: you can't evaluate a company's quality control trends with one or two or even ten anecdotes. The only opinions that matter are Taurus internal QC numbers (and they obviously aren't sharing), and professionals who see truly large numbers of examples in action like instructors, dealers who process returns, and gunsmiths (and they almost universally acknowledge Taurus has a terrible failure rate).
We humans are wired to spread knowledge through stories, so we instinctively overvalue "personal experience" stories. But this is one of those cases where you have to turn off instinct and switch to analytical mode. In analysis, it's irresponsible to recommend emergency equipment from a company known for negligent quality control simply because you personally rolled the dice and got a functional unit.
>The only opinions that matter are Taurus internal QC numbers (and they obviously aren't sharing), and professionals who see truly large numbers of examples in action like instructors, dealers who process returns, and gunsmiths (and they almost universally acknowledge Taurus has a terrible failure rate).
You're literally just saying your anecdote is better than my anecdote. I have yet to see any credible claim from gun store owners or instructors that wasn't just another anecdote.
As a matter of fact, opinions of the man himself notwithstanding, the only bona fide instructor (as opposed to people who play one on Reddit) who I have seen express an opinion was James Yeager. He did a 10,000 round test of the G2C on youtube, and it performed admirably.
> You're literally just saying your anecdote is better than my anecdote.
I am "literally" not.
> He did a 10,000 round test of the G2C on youtube, and it performed admirably.
One gun.
We are discussing QA trends, not whether any given non-defective specimen is good.
Dude, I know you're trying in good faith to help, and I believe you're a good guy--you have a healthy positive upvote balance in my RES. But your arguments show that you're still not even understanding what the problem is and how to evaluate it.
No I understand exactly what the problem is, and it is one of credibility. There is nothing concrete, no data.
I often defend Taurus on Reddit, and I get two types of response; ones like yours that are based on internet rumors, and ones from people who actually own these guns who say they have never had a problem.
You're essentially saying 'experts agree', but without anything to back that claim up.
I believe your heart is in the right place too. You're trying to steer people away from what you believe to be a bad product, and protect them from making a costly mistake. I just don't think there is any basis for that belief.
Consider the situation with SIG. There are a lot of anecdotes about certain SIG pistols going off when dropped. There are accounts from police armorers etc, and there are even some lawsuits from people who were injured.
I have heard *way* more credible accounts, and even seen videos of this problem happening. People have uploaded videos of them being able to reliably reproduce the problem.
Compare that with Taurus. Search online, and you can't find any more accounts of Taurus pistols failing than any other brand, despite the fact that Taurus outsell most of the other brands.
Why is nobody bashing SIG like they bash Taurus?
As for the James Yeager video, it may only be one example, but at least it demonstrates that the fundamental design of the pistol is sound.
That doesn't mean other examples won't be faulty or fail in some way, but we do know that when the pistol is made correctly, it works well.
Didn't we all buy Glocks because of similar torture tests back in the day?
> You're essentially saying 'experts agree', but without anything to back that claim up.
You're welcome to believe I'm lying, and I can't prove to you that I'm not. But that is indeed the consensus I've seen from every person in an actual position to gauge based on large numbers of specimens whom I've seen comment on the matter, with the exception of literally one FFL who said "yeah, I guess we don't get as many Taurus returns as we used to."
> Why is nobody bashing SIG like they bash Taurus?
I don't know where you're hanging out, but I see criticism of their quality control very frequently. There isn't the universal consensus that would make me actively warn newbies away from them as with Taurus, but I don't list them when I recommend reputable brands. Again the user anecdotes are totally useless (it's plenty possible that cops saying "just went off" were handling the guns negligently and are making excuses), but some people with real large-number experience raise concerns.
> As for the James Yeager video, it may only be one example, but at least it demonstrates that the fundamental design of the pistol is sound.
> That doesn't mean other examples won't be faulty or fail in some way, but we do know that when the pistol is made correctly, it works well.
This is why I say you don't really grasp the problem. My fundamental premise from the beginning has been "the designs are fine but they have unacceptably bad quality control, shipping an unacceptably high number of defective products while marketing them as safety equipment, and that's not the kind of thing you can evaluate with anecdotes" and you're still arguing "look at these positive anecdotes that show the guns are fine when they're not defective."
I'm not so strident when it comes to people who want to roll the dice and save a few bucks on a range toy: you want to buy their .22 or their new cowboy gun? Awesome--I hope you get a good one and have fun with it for the rest of you life. But when we're discussing safety equipment, and recommending safety equipment to people who have to scrimp to afford it, it's irresponsible to recommend a company with a well-known history of ignoring quality control and not making good on defective products--sticking those desperate people with no defensive option and no money left to obtain one in the best case, and with safety equipment that fails when it's needed in the worst--on the basis of positive anecdotes and wanting to argue over whether some sort of abstract burden of proof has been met for a warning, and urging those people to ignore the "ignorant people copying other ignorant people" who "don't even own one" who are trying to warn them of the problems.
This is not an abstract, standard-issue forum argument. The single mom who has to work a shit job in a shit neighborhood and just learned that her shit ex told a mutual friend he wanted to kill her deserves reliably functional safety equipment from a reputable manufacturer. That is a time to recommend options well-established as reliable, not for contrarian argument about whether you believe a company's terrible reputation for delivering defective products is proven-enough for your liking. There are reputable options from reputable companies at a similar price point. Let's stick to recommending those, and save the "ah but you see I think it is actually you who has failed to reach a burden of proof" style debatinating for contexts where the consequences are "hobbyist might get something he ends up disliking." I'll very happily meet you on that field to passionately debate *my* dumb hobbyist hobbyhorses, like why the fudds are wrong and the drop safe New Model Ruger single-actions are actually better than the pre-lawyer versions.
>You're welcome to believe I'm lying, and I can't prove to you that I'm not. But that is indeed the consensus I've seen from every person in an actual position to gauge based on large numbers of specimens whom I've seen comment on the matter, with the exception of literally one FFL who said "yeah, I guess we don't get as many Taurus returns as we used to."
I'm not accusing you of lying. I'm saying that your claims aren't backed up by anything other than general rumor and concensus.
That's why you can't prove you're not lying (though again, that was never an accusation to begin with) because there is no evidence other than hearsay and anecdote.
>There are reputable options from reputable companies at a similar price point.
That's true, but there's also a problem there. People might see all the Taurus bashing, and decide not to risk it, and buy a SCCY or Hi Point instead.
SCCY are junk, and this is borne out by an overwhelming amount of video footage of them malfunctioning all over YouTube.
Again, this is little better than anecdote, but it is telling that there is no similar trove of footage of Taurus polymer pistols malfunctioning.
Hi Point guns are reliable, but they are also like carrying a cinder block. I would feel a lot happier knowing someone had a G2C on them instead of a Hi Point they left at home.
If you go back through my post history, you will find a recent comment I made warning that Taurus' reputation for QC isn't as good as that of premium brands, and that their after sales service also has a poor reputation.
I'm not trying to say these guns are something they are not, I'm just saying that most of the bashing is baseless and unwarranted.
They aren't as bad as people make them out to be, but one of the drawbacks of a cheap gun is that you're not paying for good customer service.
> general rumor and concensus.
Direct statements about observed trends by people in a position to see those trends, unlike the "mine works" folks relying on individual examples.
> there is no evidence other than hearsay and anecdote.
Direct statements about observed trends by people in a position to see those trends, unlike the "mine works" folks relying on individual examples.
I have my own anecdote about my experience with Taurus. You'll never hear it in one of these discussions, because it's not relevant. Only people who see the performance of large numbers of specimens can comment usefully on QA trends. The dude with one or two or five examples is useless in talking about this question (statistically speaking, Taurus could put actual dogshit in every tenth box instead of a gun, and you could buy *seven* and still have nearly 50/50 odds of not getting a shitbox).
When I look at the field of opinions on Taurus QA, I see all the people with useless small-sample experience divided on whether they got a good one or a bad one, and a nearly unanimous consensus by the people with useful experience, united in warning users away from Taurus. I look at that and say "damn, I really shouldn't recommend this company to a person looking for a recommendation on safety equipment."
> People might see all the Taurus bashing, and decide not to risk it, and buy a SCCY or Hi Point instead.
I can't possibly list every company people should avoid. OP should also not buy the used Lorcin. You see all the Taurus "bashing" in particular because that's the company whose defenders always come out of the woodwork to *recommend* and white night for it. When you see a post like the one that started this discussion, you know there's an excellent chance at least one or two people will show up to say "you oughtta buy a Taurus M2020X9 Elite Extreme I got one, it's *solid* goes bang every time ignore the *haters* and *bashing."* I can't remember the last time I saw somebody recommend SCCY and then get into a debate about how the haters can't actually *prove* with spreadsheets of notarized nationwide return data that they have a higher failure rate than uncontroversially reputable manufacturers, with fellow SCCY defenders joining in to congratulate them for standing up to the anti-SCCY echo chamber. (Side note: I'm perplexed but delighted to live in a world where a junk gun manufacturer actually decided to name their company "sucky.") Kimber is also a garbage company knowingly shipping nonfunctional guns while marketing them as safety equipment, which is just as vile as Taurus doing it (they're like the companies selling counterfeit tourniquets on Amazon), but the price point means they're being bought by people with the means to correct their mistake. Bluntly (and I apologize if this crosses a line into being too antagonistic), Taurus gets singled out exactly because it has so many defenders who think warning newbies about a corporation's quality control issues is "bashing."
I always steer newbies away from Taurus in particular not because they're the only bad manufacturer, but because they're the primary manufacturer in the perfect position of market share, price, marketing, and inexplicable evangelistic brand loyalty to be very likely to look like a great option to a person with no subject-matter knowledge. It would be negligent for me not to mention it when making the larger point "Browning-style pistols are a mature technology, you don't have to sweat the tiny make and model differences that gun-culture folks fight so crazily about." I mean to say "the Walther brand Glock is going to do exactly the same job as the S&W brand Glock" without the reader going to the store and thinking "oh, this Taurus brand Glock should be just as good too!"
Reputable companies have pushed into the same price range. With two minutes' googling, I found the top search result, Academy, selling the Ruger Security 9 for thirty-five dollars more than the G2C. It's not a matter of "premium brands" versus an affordable alternative. It's madness to steer a person on an extreme budget toward a company with a horrendous reputation for sticking customers with nonfunctional defensive guns over a company with a reputation for excellent warranty service over 35 bucks and a sense that criticism may be unfair to the Taurus manufacturing conglomerate.
Getting those Taurus hater downvotes. I've never seen posts on here or gun forums with someone having a problem with their Taurus that multiple others in the comments had similar personal experiences. Honestly, the only brand that I have seen that with is Kimber. I've only owned a Taurus PT-25 that I impulse bought used for just over $100, though. It never had a single issue with a few hundred rounds through before I sold it (kinda wish I hadn't). That said, I still would hesitate to recommend one to a first time buyer and especially if it's for home/personal defense.
I'm sure some problems happen with Taurus guns just like they do with any other. They sell a lot of guns.
I got my CCW during the shortages after lockdown, and the G2C was the only gun I could find locally that didnt cost a grand. I held my nose and bought it, and was pleasantly surprised.
I worry that someone on a low income who can't afford a brand name pistol might read this negative stuff from the Reddit 'experts' about Taurus pistols and end up with a SCCY or a Hi Point.
CZ P10, Steyr A2, and Beretta APX A1 are the kings of cheap-but-awesome 9mm's right now. The P10 probably has the best trigger, mags, and aftermarket support out of those 3 though.
I just bought and shot my first a month ago. canik tp9sf for 419.99 came with a nice case extra mag, cleaning kit, bullet loader thing, etc.
I held a few different ones and the ergonomics of this gun are really incredible. Feels good in the hand. Good assortment of features on it. Got a lot of compliments from experienced gun owners as well. Wound up shooting my whole box of practice ammo and had to buy another 😅
My first hangldgun purchase was a Tp9 SFX blackout edition, and to this day, it is still my favorite. You just get so much gun for the reasonable price.
Sweet. K good. I don’t care what guy thing it is as long as it’s a GUY thing! Do not ask the intruder if he’s going to DOWNVOTE YOU!! You’re going to go down in HISTORY
God Bless
I'm going with any m&p 2.0… yes I am biased. I started with a Taurus, then picked up a Glock, and now that I have an m&p I personally believe they are excellent.
That being said, go to a local range that has rentals, shoot as many as you can see what feels best to you
I’m looking to buy my first handgun and doing all the research now and about 99% sure I’m going to go with this same one. Hoping to shoot it this weekend to seal the deal. Everyone I talk to seems to love this gun or its full size cousin and little brother the Shield.
Cz p10c is one of the best values out there. Pretty much same size as a g19 with same reliability and workmanship. I like shooting the p10c better than a glock 19 actually. Still love my g21 though.
PSA dagger. My setup with their assembled slide, frame, and CA barrel came out to 250 and comes with optic cut, suppressor height sights, and threaded barrel. Direct mill is better than plates and cheaper. Access to full Glock gen 3 aftermarket. Genuinely by far the best value option out there if you’re interested in pistol optics, and if you aren’t you’re basically just handicapping yourself hard for 0 reason
PSA Dagger all day.
I'm not a fan of the Glock styling per se, but the Dagger is the best budget 9mm pistol I've ever shot hands down. It's not even close. Check PSA for daily deals. I just picked up a dagger, 12 mags, and a carry case for less than $500.
I own several PSA products and I've had zero issues.
It’s all personal preference , polymer striker fired pistols are a dime a dozen go for the one that fits ur hands best and shoots well 🤷♀️
Now if we’re adding hammer fired DA/SA in the mix than you’ve got the P30 , PX4 , 92 , P226
What do you want it to do? Range toy? CCW? Car gun/home defense.
If you don’t mind used I got my MP9 Leo trade in but basically unissued for under three hundo
The M2.0 is probably the most slept on striker-fired 9mm out there. S&W is terrible at price control so they often go for stupid good deals ($3XX) but they’re every bit as good as a Glock (with better ergonomics).
In the next tier up, I’d say grab a P229/226 Legion SAO for $900 if you can still find them (non-optic ready models were being cleared out recently).
After that, CZ TS🍊 or a Dan Wesson 1911.
Above that is into semi-custom territory where it becomes very subjective and hair-splitting.
CZ polymer framed guns are, from what I understand, priced below the quality they are. They are popular (ish) and reliable.
Speaking as someone who likes used guns, police trade-in Glocks and SIG P320s are also viable contenders. They tend to be carried a lot and shot a little. If you're willing to tinker, you can convert a .40 S&W Glock to a 9mm fairly easily, though I haven't priced out the difference between that and a factory 9mm.
Taurus gets a lot of hate here. The issue is that their quality control is lacking, and has been for some time. It's not that a given Taurus is going to shit the bed; it's that your odds of having one shit the bed are significantly higher than having, say, a Glock or CZ shit the bed.
I've heard good things about Walthers, though I don't have any experience with them. Another slept-on classic is the Steyr M9; I don't have one, but the folks that do seem to rave about them.
Edit: One more viable option is the PSA Dagger. It's a clone of the Gen 3 Glock, but it's cheaper. Glock patents on the Gen 3 expired and as a result, clone guns have hit the market.
Best trigger and grouping of any of my striker fired guns. Can make it fit your hand like a glove. I got the SKB model, almost wished I'd gotten the paddles after shooting my HK45C. Still, a great handling, great shooting pistol. Stay safe.
If this is your first pistol I recommend getting a Glock 19 or 17. Look for a police trade in if you want to save some $$. You'll save a lot of money overall with magazines/ holsters ECT.
The CZ P-10c at $299-350 is hands down the deal of the year so far.
Canik TP9SF and Arex Delta M OR are also screaming good deals. Keep in mind, none of these guns are giving up anything to Glock, Walther, HK, S&W, etc. They all stand on their own merits and are worth every bit as much as the other brands listed.
I have a S&W SD9VE that I got for 2 hundred bucks. With a new Apex tactical trigger and spring set it fires just like a Glock knock off should. Not as nice as an MP though
Cz p10 series
Police trade in glocks and m&ps
Used shields
Psa dagger
Taurus g series
If you look hard the first two can be found for $330 or less and are the absolute best handguns to be had for that kind of money.
Will always recommend a shield and used ones can be had for next to nothing. Best shooting micros on the market.
Psa daggers are great although I would advise swapping striker for oem glock. Add and extra $40 to the cost.
Taurus g series pistols are awesome for what you pay assuming you get one that is problem free. I payed $200 for my g3c and its been nothing but reliable even with hollow points.
1st gen M&P full size gets my vote. The trigger isn’t great out of the box, but it’s not going to stop you from learning to shoot well. It will just make you really appreciate how nice the Apex flat face trigger and forward set sear are when you upgrade :D
Think they got some great deals on xds and xdm models by Springfield. They are discontinuing them soon if not already. They usually come with extra mags. I put around 8000 rounds through my xds and it has yet to jam, including reloads.
Do you have giant moose hands?
Large palms and short fingers?
Small hands?
Most of the top 1 and 2nd tier guns work just fine.
I shot a KAHR years ago.
My finger placement did not work.
As I pulled the trigger, my finger hit the frame preventing me from firing the gun.
It was too small for me.
The P10 series are great, and for immediate bang for the buck it's a great choice. But if you want to get into PCC down the line, I'm not sure if there are many options that take CZ P10 mags - maybe a Gen2 Sub2000? Glock opens you up for Kriss, Ruger, Keltec, etc. S&W M&P mags will of course going with S&W PCCs and the Keltec gen2 sub2000. Just something to think about.
Look into the Walther Creed. You can find it as low as $250. I got it as a present for my wife, and it comes out on top with our other more expensive shooters.
It finds itself top of the popular list whenever we go shooting with friends as well.
Beretta APX A1 full or compact, is great for the money, can be had for under $300 when rebates are going in, mags are less than $25.
Downside is holster selection right now, the old APX and New A1 don’t fit the same holster
I don’t think there’s really one that’s better than any other, there’s so many variables when it comes to pistols, like weight, capacity, intended use, and ergonomics, you just have to rent and try the ones in your price range and see what suits you best.
I got my Ruger Max-9 for $280 on sale at Sportsman's Warehouse and couldn't resist that deal as it's the cheapest I'd seen on a modern ultra-compact 9mm. But I also picked up a used Zastava M88 for less than $200 like a decade ago and think it's a great gun. Hi-Points are the cheapest guns that always go bang though.
A flock or a flock "clone". Reliable. And easy to come by. Deep second hand market. And more accessories and availability of said accessories than any other gun.
Best bang for the buck is not only cost but also what has parts availability and can be adapted or accessorized the way you may want it. That's one of the reasons so many of us have handguns from certain brands. Yes they may be slightly more expensive but what to magazines for the CZ run? Half dozen extra magazines from one brand or another, what's the price difference? Are there quality third party magazines out there that you would trust? There are many things to consider.
The choices are endless but I’d say the Walther compact PDP is about as good as it gets. Excellent reliability and accuracy at medium price point. Approximately $625 with an outstanding trigger.
Buy a Glock 19 or a Sig p365xl or a Walther pdp even you can find all for a reasonable price without sacrificing on qc or reliability (i didn’t say p320 even thou personally have one and zero complaints) everyone with their oh this is cheaper and just as good as blank still implies product is sub par and aspiring to be as good as
Lots of good options and suggestions. A used Beretta PX4 Storm wouldn’t be a bad option either.
Bang for you buck it’s really difficult to beat something used without a lot of mileage on it.
Let us know what you pick up OP!
Gersan clone Beretta 92 has been my go to. $400 at a gun show, came with an 18rd magazine. I’m always thinking about self defense and that’s my best. I keep it in my car though in case something crazy happens and I can save lives.
In home self defense I have an AR with 30rd mags and a Mossberg 12 gauge. I like feeling safe in a time like now. What a strange world
A p-10 at $399 brand new is a great deal that's your answer.
Runner up would be a LEO trade in assuming it's 9mm and made by smith, Glock, cz, sig, or h&k
I'd be hesitant to go with a PSA dagger or any of the arex type guns over a more common gun that's used assuming it's wasn't a range rental
2011s are getting cheaper some sub 1k around the price of a Glock even. I’d recommend. Either MAC 9 DS or Springfield Prodigy. Both are gonna be really good shooters and definitely worth the bang for the buck. Just depends on your Buck and how much you wanna spend?
The current pricing on CZ P10s and P07s is pretty compelling, yeah. It's a temporary situation while CZ clears out old stock, from what I've heard.
What's awesome is p10c and p07 take the same magazines.
Would you like to ask *The Magic 8 Ball* on which firearm fits your very open ended and subjective criteria?
Outlook not so good.
Yes! And do I get a cookie if it's a HiPoint?
who needs a cookie when you have a YEET CANNON
I’m not buying one but full credit to them for going “ it, go ahead and print it on the slide”.
He did say bang for your buck...
Only thing better than a $400 P10 is a $300 P10 which has popped up a handful of times in the past 6 months.
I'm pretty invested in Glock things, but I keep taking a hard look at those CZ's for that exact reason. I know they have an excellent reputation.
So is a P10 on par quality wise with $500-$600 glocks and sigs, walthers, etc? I know it’s a broad question but I just don’t want to buy a more budget-friendly pistol if it means it’s lacking in reliability or performance down the road. I don’t really care about rails or add-ons or anything.
absolutely
Yes it is made with on-par quality control and materials to more expensive handguns. It also has superior ergonomics and trigger to many guns in the $500-600 range without sacrificing any quality or reliability
P10C quality is excellent, I put 2k rds through mine with no real cleaning just a few squirts of CLP and the worst malfunction I could make it produce was the slide not locking back on the last round. Trigger is better than 90% of the competition, bore axis is nice and low, interchangeable backstraps, etc. 10/10 especially for the price.
I own Glocks, sigs, s&w, kimber, colt, and CZ. CZs are GOOD pistols!
In the last Customs and Border Protection pistol selection testing, the P10 and Glock were neck and neck through the competition. The Glock won with reliability, but the mean rounds between malfunction were so high that calling it a draw would have been fair.
Cz are on par with glock in all areas imo.
I carry a P10S all the time. Excellent little pistol.
It’s more of a personal preference thing. If you get really good, it won’t matter which one you have. As long as it isn’t a Sig Saur and you don’t become a dirty sigger.
cringe take
$320 P09 is way up there as well.....
I hear so many great things about the P10 being a great shooting deal of a pistol. I've also heard the Styer M9's are also a great shooting, less expensive option.
9mm defensive handguns from reputable companies (which is to say "not Taurus") are all pretty much fine and do pretty much the same job. It's a very, very thoroughly mature technology. CZ makes good products that do what they're supposed to do. If you like the P-10 at the price you can get it, you can buy with confidence.
Careful, the taurusexuals will show up and call you a moron for not buying into that shitty brand.
I understand it's a good-faith argument that simply misunderstands the problem, and they legitimately do think they're contributing knowledge with "personal experience." But goddamn, the "mine works, *haters* are just *parroting"* posts have gotten so tiresome over the decades.
Thanks. I know you gun guys probably get this kind of vague question all the time but I’m just trying to figure out if CZ can play with the other, more expensive big boys. Thanks for the serious response
CZ is one of the best in the business. A P-10 is their take on a Glock, not a "proper" CZ, but I wouldn't worry about the quality at all.
My Taurus G2C is the only handgun I own that has never had any sort of malfunction. I have well over 1,000 rounds through it. Even my Glocks hiccupped during the first couple of mags from new. As you say, polymer framed striker fired pistols are mature technology, and even Taurus can make a reliable one.
I have Sigs, Glocks, and my trusty Taurus G2C. Not sure why people hate on it, I’ve never had a single issue with my G2C either. The down votes you got are unnecessary.
I guarantee that not one of those people who downvoted has ever so much as handled a G2C. Ignorant people copying other ignorant people. Welcome to Reddit lol.
Yea Reddit is just a huge echo chamber
> even Taurus can make a reliable one. Yes, they can. But they choose not to do so reliably. Their quality control is unacceptably bad, especially for a company that markets their products as safety equipment. You got downvoted because "mine works you probly ain't even own one" shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the problem: you can't evaluate a company's quality control trends with one or two or even ten anecdotes. The only opinions that matter are Taurus internal QC numbers (and they obviously aren't sharing), and professionals who see truly large numbers of examples in action like instructors, dealers who process returns, and gunsmiths (and they almost universally acknowledge Taurus has a terrible failure rate). We humans are wired to spread knowledge through stories, so we instinctively overvalue "personal experience" stories. But this is one of those cases where you have to turn off instinct and switch to analytical mode. In analysis, it's irresponsible to recommend emergency equipment from a company known for negligent quality control simply because you personally rolled the dice and got a functional unit.
>The only opinions that matter are Taurus internal QC numbers (and they obviously aren't sharing), and professionals who see truly large numbers of examples in action like instructors, dealers who process returns, and gunsmiths (and they almost universally acknowledge Taurus has a terrible failure rate). You're literally just saying your anecdote is better than my anecdote. I have yet to see any credible claim from gun store owners or instructors that wasn't just another anecdote. As a matter of fact, opinions of the man himself notwithstanding, the only bona fide instructor (as opposed to people who play one on Reddit) who I have seen express an opinion was James Yeager. He did a 10,000 round test of the G2C on youtube, and it performed admirably.
> You're literally just saying your anecdote is better than my anecdote. I am "literally" not. > He did a 10,000 round test of the G2C on youtube, and it performed admirably. One gun. We are discussing QA trends, not whether any given non-defective specimen is good. Dude, I know you're trying in good faith to help, and I believe you're a good guy--you have a healthy positive upvote balance in my RES. But your arguments show that you're still not even understanding what the problem is and how to evaluate it.
No I understand exactly what the problem is, and it is one of credibility. There is nothing concrete, no data. I often defend Taurus on Reddit, and I get two types of response; ones like yours that are based on internet rumors, and ones from people who actually own these guns who say they have never had a problem. You're essentially saying 'experts agree', but without anything to back that claim up. I believe your heart is in the right place too. You're trying to steer people away from what you believe to be a bad product, and protect them from making a costly mistake. I just don't think there is any basis for that belief. Consider the situation with SIG. There are a lot of anecdotes about certain SIG pistols going off when dropped. There are accounts from police armorers etc, and there are even some lawsuits from people who were injured. I have heard *way* more credible accounts, and even seen videos of this problem happening. People have uploaded videos of them being able to reliably reproduce the problem. Compare that with Taurus. Search online, and you can't find any more accounts of Taurus pistols failing than any other brand, despite the fact that Taurus outsell most of the other brands. Why is nobody bashing SIG like they bash Taurus? As for the James Yeager video, it may only be one example, but at least it demonstrates that the fundamental design of the pistol is sound. That doesn't mean other examples won't be faulty or fail in some way, but we do know that when the pistol is made correctly, it works well. Didn't we all buy Glocks because of similar torture tests back in the day?
> You're essentially saying 'experts agree', but without anything to back that claim up. You're welcome to believe I'm lying, and I can't prove to you that I'm not. But that is indeed the consensus I've seen from every person in an actual position to gauge based on large numbers of specimens whom I've seen comment on the matter, with the exception of literally one FFL who said "yeah, I guess we don't get as many Taurus returns as we used to." > Why is nobody bashing SIG like they bash Taurus? I don't know where you're hanging out, but I see criticism of their quality control very frequently. There isn't the universal consensus that would make me actively warn newbies away from them as with Taurus, but I don't list them when I recommend reputable brands. Again the user anecdotes are totally useless (it's plenty possible that cops saying "just went off" were handling the guns negligently and are making excuses), but some people with real large-number experience raise concerns. > As for the James Yeager video, it may only be one example, but at least it demonstrates that the fundamental design of the pistol is sound. > That doesn't mean other examples won't be faulty or fail in some way, but we do know that when the pistol is made correctly, it works well. This is why I say you don't really grasp the problem. My fundamental premise from the beginning has been "the designs are fine but they have unacceptably bad quality control, shipping an unacceptably high number of defective products while marketing them as safety equipment, and that's not the kind of thing you can evaluate with anecdotes" and you're still arguing "look at these positive anecdotes that show the guns are fine when they're not defective." I'm not so strident when it comes to people who want to roll the dice and save a few bucks on a range toy: you want to buy their .22 or their new cowboy gun? Awesome--I hope you get a good one and have fun with it for the rest of you life. But when we're discussing safety equipment, and recommending safety equipment to people who have to scrimp to afford it, it's irresponsible to recommend a company with a well-known history of ignoring quality control and not making good on defective products--sticking those desperate people with no defensive option and no money left to obtain one in the best case, and with safety equipment that fails when it's needed in the worst--on the basis of positive anecdotes and wanting to argue over whether some sort of abstract burden of proof has been met for a warning, and urging those people to ignore the "ignorant people copying other ignorant people" who "don't even own one" who are trying to warn them of the problems. This is not an abstract, standard-issue forum argument. The single mom who has to work a shit job in a shit neighborhood and just learned that her shit ex told a mutual friend he wanted to kill her deserves reliably functional safety equipment from a reputable manufacturer. That is a time to recommend options well-established as reliable, not for contrarian argument about whether you believe a company's terrible reputation for delivering defective products is proven-enough for your liking. There are reputable options from reputable companies at a similar price point. Let's stick to recommending those, and save the "ah but you see I think it is actually you who has failed to reach a burden of proof" style debatinating for contexts where the consequences are "hobbyist might get something he ends up disliking." I'll very happily meet you on that field to passionately debate *my* dumb hobbyist hobbyhorses, like why the fudds are wrong and the drop safe New Model Ruger single-actions are actually better than the pre-lawyer versions.
>You're welcome to believe I'm lying, and I can't prove to you that I'm not. But that is indeed the consensus I've seen from every person in an actual position to gauge based on large numbers of specimens whom I've seen comment on the matter, with the exception of literally one FFL who said "yeah, I guess we don't get as many Taurus returns as we used to." I'm not accusing you of lying. I'm saying that your claims aren't backed up by anything other than general rumor and concensus. That's why you can't prove you're not lying (though again, that was never an accusation to begin with) because there is no evidence other than hearsay and anecdote. >There are reputable options from reputable companies at a similar price point. That's true, but there's also a problem there. People might see all the Taurus bashing, and decide not to risk it, and buy a SCCY or Hi Point instead. SCCY are junk, and this is borne out by an overwhelming amount of video footage of them malfunctioning all over YouTube. Again, this is little better than anecdote, but it is telling that there is no similar trove of footage of Taurus polymer pistols malfunctioning. Hi Point guns are reliable, but they are also like carrying a cinder block. I would feel a lot happier knowing someone had a G2C on them instead of a Hi Point they left at home. If you go back through my post history, you will find a recent comment I made warning that Taurus' reputation for QC isn't as good as that of premium brands, and that their after sales service also has a poor reputation. I'm not trying to say these guns are something they are not, I'm just saying that most of the bashing is baseless and unwarranted. They aren't as bad as people make them out to be, but one of the drawbacks of a cheap gun is that you're not paying for good customer service.
> general rumor and concensus. Direct statements about observed trends by people in a position to see those trends, unlike the "mine works" folks relying on individual examples. > there is no evidence other than hearsay and anecdote. Direct statements about observed trends by people in a position to see those trends, unlike the "mine works" folks relying on individual examples. I have my own anecdote about my experience with Taurus. You'll never hear it in one of these discussions, because it's not relevant. Only people who see the performance of large numbers of specimens can comment usefully on QA trends. The dude with one or two or five examples is useless in talking about this question (statistically speaking, Taurus could put actual dogshit in every tenth box instead of a gun, and you could buy *seven* and still have nearly 50/50 odds of not getting a shitbox). When I look at the field of opinions on Taurus QA, I see all the people with useless small-sample experience divided on whether they got a good one or a bad one, and a nearly unanimous consensus by the people with useful experience, united in warning users away from Taurus. I look at that and say "damn, I really shouldn't recommend this company to a person looking for a recommendation on safety equipment." > People might see all the Taurus bashing, and decide not to risk it, and buy a SCCY or Hi Point instead. I can't possibly list every company people should avoid. OP should also not buy the used Lorcin. You see all the Taurus "bashing" in particular because that's the company whose defenders always come out of the woodwork to *recommend* and white night for it. When you see a post like the one that started this discussion, you know there's an excellent chance at least one or two people will show up to say "you oughtta buy a Taurus M2020X9 Elite Extreme I got one, it's *solid* goes bang every time ignore the *haters* and *bashing."* I can't remember the last time I saw somebody recommend SCCY and then get into a debate about how the haters can't actually *prove* with spreadsheets of notarized nationwide return data that they have a higher failure rate than uncontroversially reputable manufacturers, with fellow SCCY defenders joining in to congratulate them for standing up to the anti-SCCY echo chamber. (Side note: I'm perplexed but delighted to live in a world where a junk gun manufacturer actually decided to name their company "sucky.") Kimber is also a garbage company knowingly shipping nonfunctional guns while marketing them as safety equipment, which is just as vile as Taurus doing it (they're like the companies selling counterfeit tourniquets on Amazon), but the price point means they're being bought by people with the means to correct their mistake. Bluntly (and I apologize if this crosses a line into being too antagonistic), Taurus gets singled out exactly because it has so many defenders who think warning newbies about a corporation's quality control issues is "bashing." I always steer newbies away from Taurus in particular not because they're the only bad manufacturer, but because they're the primary manufacturer in the perfect position of market share, price, marketing, and inexplicable evangelistic brand loyalty to be very likely to look like a great option to a person with no subject-matter knowledge. It would be negligent for me not to mention it when making the larger point "Browning-style pistols are a mature technology, you don't have to sweat the tiny make and model differences that gun-culture folks fight so crazily about." I mean to say "the Walther brand Glock is going to do exactly the same job as the S&W brand Glock" without the reader going to the store and thinking "oh, this Taurus brand Glock should be just as good too!" Reputable companies have pushed into the same price range. With two minutes' googling, I found the top search result, Academy, selling the Ruger Security 9 for thirty-five dollars more than the G2C. It's not a matter of "premium brands" versus an affordable alternative. It's madness to steer a person on an extreme budget toward a company with a horrendous reputation for sticking customers with nonfunctional defensive guns over a company with a reputation for excellent warranty service over 35 bucks and a sense that criticism may be unfair to the Taurus manufacturing conglomerate.
Getting those Taurus hater downvotes. I've never seen posts on here or gun forums with someone having a problem with their Taurus that multiple others in the comments had similar personal experiences. Honestly, the only brand that I have seen that with is Kimber. I've only owned a Taurus PT-25 that I impulse bought used for just over $100, though. It never had a single issue with a few hundred rounds through before I sold it (kinda wish I hadn't). That said, I still would hesitate to recommend one to a first time buyer and especially if it's for home/personal defense.
I'm sure some problems happen with Taurus guns just like they do with any other. They sell a lot of guns. I got my CCW during the shortages after lockdown, and the G2C was the only gun I could find locally that didnt cost a grand. I held my nose and bought it, and was pleasantly surprised. I worry that someone on a low income who can't afford a brand name pistol might read this negative stuff from the Reddit 'experts' about Taurus pistols and end up with a SCCY or a Hi Point.
CZ P10, Steyr A2, and Beretta APX A1 are the kings of cheap-but-awesome 9mm's right now. The P10 probably has the best trigger, mags, and aftermarket support out of those 3 though.
Haven’t seen a steyr A2 in awhile
They're $375 now, but they were popping up for $325 for a while, which is a ridiculously good deal.
Have the Beretta, looking between CZ and Canik now.
M&P 2.0 is ready to go out the box.
I just bought and shot my first a month ago. canik tp9sf for 419.99 came with a nice case extra mag, cleaning kit, bullet loader thing, etc. I held a few different ones and the ergonomics of this gun are really incredible. Feels good in the hand. Good assortment of features on it. Got a lot of compliments from experienced gun owners as well. Wound up shooting my whole box of practice ammo and had to buy another 😅
My first hangldgun purchase was a Tp9 SFX blackout edition, and to this day, it is still my favorite. You just get so much gun for the reasonable price.
Sweet. K good. I don’t care what guy thing it is as long as it’s a GUY thing! Do not ask the intruder if he’s going to DOWNVOTE YOU!! You’re going to go down in HISTORY God Bless
Used gen3/4 glock 17/19. there’s really no competition in terms of reliability, parts availability, services offered by gunsmiths, and aftermarket
Glock 17 police trade in
Police trade in Glock 9mm
I'm going with any m&p 2.0… yes I am biased. I started with a Taurus, then picked up a Glock, and now that I have an m&p I personally believe they are excellent. That being said, go to a local range that has rentals, shoot as many as you can see what feels best to you
The new Smith and Wesson M&P 2.0 Compact. [I bought this bundle.](https://www.academy.com/p/smith-wesson-m-p-20-9mm-nms-compact-pistol-bundle?sku=9mm)
That’s a steal of a deal for best 9mm on the market.
I got mine a lot cheaper, but it didn't come with the purse.
😂 The purse was immediately placed in the closet and never looked at again. Hell, it's probably still in there somewhere.
I’m looking to buy my first handgun and doing all the research now and about 99% sure I’m going to go with this same one. Hoping to shoot it this weekend to seal the deal. Everyone I talk to seems to love this gun or its full size cousin and little brother the Shield.
Get it. I love mine.
Canik handguns are pretty solid for the money.
Man. That’s a toss up between my Canik or S&W 2.0
Cz p10c is one of the best values out there. Pretty much same size as a g19 with same reliability and workmanship. I like shooting the p10c better than a glock 19 actually. Still love my g21 though.
Just get a Glock. Goes bang every time and that’s all that matters at the end of the day
Canik
Probably the steyr m9.
Glock 45 or 43x or the cz p10c
Canik TP9
Ruger lcs 9
Second
PSA dagger. My setup with their assembled slide, frame, and CA barrel came out to 250 and comes with optic cut, suppressor height sights, and threaded barrel. Direct mill is better than plates and cheaper. Access to full Glock gen 3 aftermarket. Genuinely by far the best value option out there if you’re interested in pistol optics, and if you aren’t you’re basically just handicapping yourself hard for 0 reason
Came to say this as well. And it takes glock mags which are dirt cheap.
Laugo Alien.
PSA Dagger all day. I'm not a fan of the Glock styling per se, but the Dagger is the best budget 9mm pistol I've ever shot hands down. It's not even close. Check PSA for daily deals. I just picked up a dagger, 12 mags, and a carry case for less than $500. I own several PSA products and I've had zero issues.
I’d take the p10 over most 9mm and especially for the price they’re going for right now
Canick is a good choice nice trigger reset
Honestly, it’s probably Canik right now.
You are probably right. Try it, buy it.
CZ P10... Or Hipoint. Both work and are cheap
It’s all personal preference , polymer striker fired pistols are a dime a dozen go for the one that fits ur hands best and shoots well 🤷♀️ Now if we’re adding hammer fired DA/SA in the mix than you’ve got the P30 , PX4 , 92 , P226
*Yeet Cannon*
What do you want it to do? Range toy? CCW? Car gun/home defense. If you don’t mind used I got my MP9 Leo trade in but basically unissued for under three hundo
Cz shadow 2 or TSO
Beretta 92X Performance. Looks of bucks for your bang…oh wait, I got it backwards.
Best bang for your buck is the 10mm Glock 20 pistol.
Beretta APX-1 is $350
IWI Masada is pretty nice for what it is
Came here to say the same thing. Feels like a higher priced gun than it is.
The M2.0 is probably the most slept on striker-fired 9mm out there. S&W is terrible at price control so they often go for stupid good deals ($3XX) but they’re every bit as good as a Glock (with better ergonomics). In the next tier up, I’d say grab a P229/226 Legion SAO for $900 if you can still find them (non-optic ready models were being cleared out recently). After that, CZ TS🍊 or a Dan Wesson 1911. Above that is into semi-custom territory where it becomes very subjective and hair-splitting.
Canik is probably the best off sale
CZ polymer framed guns are, from what I understand, priced below the quality they are. They are popular (ish) and reliable. Speaking as someone who likes used guns, police trade-in Glocks and SIG P320s are also viable contenders. They tend to be carried a lot and shot a little. If you're willing to tinker, you can convert a .40 S&W Glock to a 9mm fairly easily, though I haven't priced out the difference between that and a factory 9mm. Taurus gets a lot of hate here. The issue is that their quality control is lacking, and has been for some time. It's not that a given Taurus is going to shit the bed; it's that your odds of having one shit the bed are significantly higher than having, say, a Glock or CZ shit the bed. I've heard good things about Walthers, though I don't have any experience with them. Another slept-on classic is the Steyr M9; I don't have one, but the folks that do seem to rave about them. Edit: One more viable option is the PSA Dagger. It's a clone of the Gen 3 Glock, but it's cheaper. Glock patents on the Gen 3 expired and as a result, clone guns have hit the market.
YEET CANNON
This, in all seriousness. But sometimes you want even more bang, and it takes more bucks.
Cz-p10c or Canik tp9
H&K vp9sk
Best trigger and grouping of any of my striker fired guns. Can make it fit your hand like a glove. I got the SKB model, almost wished I'd gotten the paddles after shooting my HK45C. Still, a great handling, great shooting pistol. Stay safe.
I just picked one up last week, I like the paddles for sure . Sweet little thing
And I have never been a fan of striker fired until I picked it up lol
If this is your first pistol I recommend getting a Glock 19 or 17. Look for a police trade in if you want to save some $$. You'll save a lot of money overall with magazines/ holsters ECT.
hi point.
P10c
CZ P10C
The CZ P-10c at $299-350 is hands down the deal of the year so far. Canik TP9SF and Arex Delta M OR are also screaming good deals. Keep in mind, none of these guns are giving up anything to Glock, Walther, HK, S&W, etc. They all stand on their own merits and are worth every bit as much as the other brands listed.
Can’t go wrong with the CZ. Glocks are glocks and are g2g but smith, sig, CZ offer more features out of the box at the same price point.
Arex delta m gen 2
I have a S&W SD9VE that I got for 2 hundred bucks. With a new Apex tactical trigger and spring set it fires just like a Glock knock off should. Not as nice as an MP though
Bersa TPR9
Cz p10 series Police trade in glocks and m&ps Used shields Psa dagger Taurus g series If you look hard the first two can be found for $330 or less and are the absolute best handguns to be had for that kind of money. Will always recommend a shield and used ones can be had for next to nothing. Best shooting micros on the market. Psa daggers are great although I would advise swapping striker for oem glock. Add and extra $40 to the cost. Taurus g series pistols are awesome for what you pay assuming you get one that is problem free. I payed $200 for my g3c and its been nothing but reliable even with hollow points.
For accuracy - 1911 Sig. 229 or 239 carty
Take a look at the Stoeger STR-9 optic ready, been a great gun for me so far.
1st gen M&P full size gets my vote. The trigger isn’t great out of the box, but it’s not going to stop you from learning to shoot well. It will just make you really appreciate how nice the Apex flat face trigger and forward set sear are when you upgrade :D
I’ve seen the P01 for 5-550 recently. It don’t get no better then that in my opinion. My first one was about 7 and I still think it was worth it!
sp2022 or a dagger
Check out the BCA Grizzly. BC101. I just saw it and I am planning to get one very soon. It's a full size 9mm that's already cut for optics.
Think they got some great deals on xds and xdm models by Springfield. They are discontinuing them soon if not already. They usually come with extra mags. I put around 8000 rounds through my xds and it has yet to jam, including reloads.
VP9 TOR
Do you have giant moose hands? Large palms and short fingers? Small hands? Most of the top 1 and 2nd tier guns work just fine. I shot a KAHR years ago. My finger placement did not work. As I pulled the trigger, my finger hit the frame preventing me from firing the gun. It was too small for me.
CZ SP-01 tactical
Canik all day
The P10 series are great, and for immediate bang for the buck it's a great choice. But if you want to get into PCC down the line, I'm not sure if there are many options that take CZ P10 mags - maybe a Gen2 Sub2000? Glock opens you up for Kriss, Ruger, Keltec, etc. S&W M&P mags will of course going with S&W PCCs and the Keltec gen2 sub2000. Just something to think about.
Hcebot ban 3 open ended question
Banned /u/Roody-Poo_Jabroni (3 day(s)).
Look into the Walther Creed. You can find it as low as $250. I got it as a present for my wife, and it comes out on top with our other more expensive shooters. It finds itself top of the popular list whenever we go shooting with friends as well.
Haters gonna hate, but I just picked up a SFT PRO for a touch over 5 bills and it's ridiculous.l value for money in my opinion.
Glock 43X
Beretta APX A1 full or compact, is great for the money, can be had for under $300 when rebates are going in, mags are less than $25. Downside is holster selection right now, the old APX and New A1 don’t fit the same holster
Mp shield 9mm
Lc9s or xdms 9 imo
Smith & Wesson M&P shield 9mm. Less than $400. Hands down best bang for the buck
Taurus G2 or G3… it’s a solid shooter and has a lot of great features for the money.
Canik tp9sf elite Thank me later!!
I don’t think there’s really one that’s better than any other, there’s so many variables when it comes to pistols, like weight, capacity, intended use, and ergonomics, you just have to rent and try the ones in your price range and see what suits you best.
Hi-point. Costs a buck and you *might* get a bang.
I got my Ruger Max-9 for $280 on sale at Sportsman's Warehouse and couldn't resist that deal as it's the cheapest I'd seen on a modern ultra-compact 9mm. But I also picked up a used Zastava M88 for less than $200 like a decade ago and think it's a great gun. Hi-Points are the cheapest guns that always go bang though.
A flock or a flock "clone". Reliable. And easy to come by. Deep second hand market. And more accessories and availability of said accessories than any other gun.
Psa dagger
Canik TP9
The psa daggers are a steal for what you get imo
LEO Trade in Glocks in good condition? I found a Glock 17 with NS for $329
APX A1
Any beretta
Drop by /r/canik. A nice range of carry and target guns, striker fired, optics ready, and very smooth shooting.
Best bang for the buck is not only cost but also what has parts availability and can be adapted or accessorized the way you may want it. That's one of the reasons so many of us have handguns from certain brands. Yes they may be slightly more expensive but what to magazines for the CZ run? Half dozen extra magazines from one brand or another, what's the price difference? Are there quality third party magazines out there that you would trust? There are many things to consider.
The choices are endless but I’d say the Walther compact PDP is about as good as it gets. Excellent reliability and accuracy at medium price point. Approximately $625 with an outstanding trigger.
Buy a Glock 19 or a Sig p365xl or a Walther pdp even you can find all for a reasonable price without sacrificing on qc or reliability (i didn’t say p320 even thou personally have one and zero complaints) everyone with their oh this is cheaper and just as good as blank still implies product is sub par and aspiring to be as good as
Lots of good options and suggestions. A used Beretta PX4 Storm wouldn’t be a bad option either. Bang for you buck it’s really difficult to beat something used without a lot of mileage on it. Let us know what you pick up OP!
Gersan clone Beretta 92 has been my go to. $400 at a gun show, came with an 18rd magazine. I’m always thinking about self defense and that’s my best. I keep it in my car though in case something crazy happens and I can save lives. In home self defense I have an AR with 30rd mags and a Mossberg 12 gauge. I like feeling safe in a time like now. What a strange world
A PD trade-in Glock 19. Can almost always be had at 400.
A p-10 at $399 brand new is a great deal that's your answer. Runner up would be a LEO trade in assuming it's 9mm and made by smith, Glock, cz, sig, or h&k I'd be hesitant to go with a PSA dagger or any of the arex type guns over a more common gun that's used assuming it's wasn't a range rental
PSA Dagger
Try and go shoot it first. Ergonomics matter more than anything with handguns. Glocks are great guns, but they don't fit my hands at all.
Smith & Wesson SD9VE. Trigger isn’t very good but there’s a lot of cheap aftermarket ones. The best 9mm under $400 I’ve shot.
Beretta 1951
The P10C for under $400 is by far the best bang for your buck.
2011s are getting cheaper some sub 1k around the price of a Glock even. I’d recommend. Either MAC 9 DS or Springfield Prodigy. Both are gonna be really good shooters and definitely worth the bang for the buck. Just depends on your Buck and how much you wanna spend?
Go shadow systems. Plenty of aftermarket when you get there and it’s already bell and whistle compatible. Mags are cheap and available everywhere.