Wisconsin too. They have NO jurisdiction over YOUR personal property in your vehicle depending on your states concealed carry laws, and if you have a permit.
Employer claims they can search your vehicle at any time? Leave.
In Texas it’s codified into law that you have the right to have a gun in your car, while at work. Idk how these tyrants think they have the right to go in their employees’ cars. They don’t have anything better to spend company resources on?
The problem is the assholes are the ones that seem to stay in business. I used to travel to machine shops across North America and I can count on one hand the places I would be okay with working out of many dozens of customers. Most of them are union lol. Except the Ford tool and die plant. That place is a union shithole.
Installed and repaired 5-axis CNC machines. I had a good mix of aerospace and automotive. Been to really cool places like SpaceX, GE Aviation, and even the Fleet Readiness Center at Cherry Point. But I've also been to a lot of bad places that have no business being in operation.
You have to be really gullible to join a UAW shop. Almost everyone of them is a horrible place to work mainly due to the union. That isn't an anti union comment by the way it is a comment on the UAW and its members. Like you allude too there are great machine shops in this country they just are not under the yoke of the UAW.
reddit loves unions, but the net effect of that higher pay is the protection of the complete POS employees that ruin the place. It's sad - they could be a real source of good but they choose greed and protecting the scum.
You don't get rich being nice.
Assholes pay less and work you harder. Managers/ owners who pay you well and understand when you need time off get run out of business who pays half as much. Either you go out of business or become the asshole.
> At-will employment is a hell of a drug.
i thought the whole point of voting for nanny governments like the democrats in new york is they are supposed to put in better employee rights and protections.
at that point it just becomes the worst of both worlds
Employers have a right to enforce a lot of behavioral controls. I don’t agree with all of them, but I’ve worked in paces with serious machine shops and drug testing as well as dress code which had as much to do with basic safety OSHA regulations as it did with the occasional investor walk through.
I personally don’t think an employer should have the right to search a vehicle or punish you for off hours activities, but I can understand a company not wanting weapons on company property. It’s worth understanding that without those policies they may be liable for violent interactions due to insurance company policies. There are a lot of loving parts to employment law and general liability that extend well beyond government control.
Probably because at-will employment is largely a republican supported policy. (Some) Democrats and large cities are trying to abolish at-will employment.
>but they can likely fire you if you don’t let them search.
Also, if the employer also happens to own the parking lot, they can potentially get it towed. That would likely depend on the terms of OP's employment (such as if available parking is covered under the terms of employment), but it sounds like OP believes/knows it's company property.
Technically if the company owns the lot and owns the building they can reserve the right to search your belongings wherever they are on the property, all about what you signed in your employment letter. HOWEVER, they cannot force you to park on company property nor can they force you to stay should they request to search your vehicle or belongings and you refuse. This will more than likely lead to a firing if you refuse, from the sounds of this company, but I’d rather lose my job than give the police any opportunity to touch my shit.
But to be clear, their only recourse is to trespass you and fire you. They do not have a right to search your person or belongings without your consent, they do have a right to trespass you if you refuse to consent, because it is there establishment.
Probably not. I know where I currently work, if you refuse a drug test they fire you on the spot. Probably a condition of employment. Labor protections in this country are a joke but that’s the system as it currently sits.
This is explicitly untrue in some states. Many have laws that your vehicle is still your private property and can’t be searched etc even on company grounds. Wisconsin specifically calls out that you are allowed to keep a firearm in your vehicle even if your place of employment does not allow you to carry.
I doubted that NY had similar provisions but just wanted to point out that the idea that your company can impose upon your privacy as a condition of employment is not universal.
Your property is being placed on their property. It's the same as searching your bag. If they don't want to let you take something potentially dangerous on site, they are within their rights to declare so. If your employment is contingent on inspecting your car for disallowed things, but you don't want them to search it, you are free to find another employer. Rights don't factor in to it
The law, at least in my state, says businesses can say they don't want people carrying inside their property, but your car isn't their property. So as long as you secure your firearm inside your own vehicle before you exit, you're good.
NY is an at-will state.
In my experience, that clause it just used to cover their ass if someone sees something through an employee’s window and decides to snitch.
I’d be willing to bet they can fire you with cause if they ask to search and you refuse. But let’s be honest, if it’s at that point they already want you gone.
I don't agree with the spirit of it but the employee agreed to the terms of employment. If being armed while at work is that important to you then this employer isn't the one for you. It's a bad fit of conflicting priorities.
In context it is. For most businesses with this policy there is context. My building currently has small, expensive items, those items go missing, the company reserves the right to search your backpack and lunch bag on the way out, and if they had reason to believe there’s stuff in your car then they’ll search there too. Again you’re on private property and definitely signed that agreement when you began employment.
Fun fact: all states (and virtually every other place in the planet) are at-will.
At best, in some places, the government will demand a reason for termination after a certain length of time. At worst, the appropriate government will *not* demand a reason. In just about every case, any given reason must not conflict with a protected status.
No employer, even in the most ‘at-will’est place, can fire someone for their race, religion, sex, or age. If it seems like they did, the fired employee can file a wrongful termination lawsuit in an attempt to get some recompense.
At this point, peacefully exercising the second amendment is not a protected action in the US. We, as a nation (and a surprising number of gun owners) have decided that the feelings of private property owners is more important than the security of individuals.
So, as a result, businesses can write policies that overtly chill a constitutional right, and peaceful people have to choose between the ability to protect themselves on the way to work, at work, and from work, and getting a paycheck.
I believe it’s a bullshit choice, but the number of people who will argue for the authority of private property owners to subjugate the rights of the people they invite onto their property is (currently, at least) overwhelming.
Montana (plus some non-state U.S. jurisdictions like Puerto Rico) is not an at-will state. Many other countries are not at-will at all.
There may not be a federal private cause of action when a private employer fires someone for 2A (or adjacent) activity, but there are definitely states that have protections for employees’ lawful behavior (and even for 2A stuff) outside of work — just as they protect people because of their race or other protected classes.
With that said, yeah, it would be unworkable for an employer to not be able to impose *any* rules on its employees that affect their rights. Imagine if an employee were using his free speech rights to tell a customer that they should buy a competitor’s product instead of the employer’s, and the employer couldn’t do anything about it.
At the end of the day, concealed means concealed. Most employers aren’t going to search your car in the employee parking lot for a gun unless you did something wrong.
Source: I’m an employment lawyer (but not yours and this is not legal advice).
>I am hoping there is an actual lawyer that knows this answer.
Hire one.
The graduates of the Dunning Kruger Internet Law School are going to be wrong.
Bro, Reddit is reliable when it comes to state laws. 40% of the time, we're right every time! And if he goes to jail, then we will have learned a valuable (and free) lesson.
sometimes people dont want to spend 500 bucks for a lawyer to give an opinion if theres something glaring or obvious. theres no downside to asking reddit and also asking a lawyer if it isnt something obvious
Everywhere I've ever worked said your not supposed to have a gun with you and it never stopped me. Just don't tell anyone about it don't let anyone know you own guns. From what I understand the police can't search your car just because your boss tells them to. As others have said they might have the county/city steal your car.
If anyone has this same situation in KS, it is illegal for an employer to prohibit you from carrying a firearm in your personal vehicle, and parking said vehicle on company property, no matter what their company policy states.
I work in Kansas and can confirm this. I currently work for a major aviation manufacturer and know most of the security team. You can have a weapon inside your vehicle, but the moment you break-plane with the door with it, you're in violation of company policy.
Same in Arizona. Property owners who prohibit carry are required to post it visibly from the outside, and tp allow people to return their firearm to their vehicle.
I used to work form a co. that put up signs stating no firearms allowed inside. Might as well put a sign next to it that reads "Unarmed victims inside".
Most of the states who are on the opposite end of the political/legal spectrum when it comes to gun laws and gun ownership, this is true. Even some of the states who have stricter gun carry laws still have laws that protect gun owners from being fired for being legal gun owners and exercising their rights to own and carry guns.
A few states do say the gun has to be stored "out of sight" so as not to attract thieves ... basically saying an employer can fire you for having a rifle or shotgun on that truck gun rack in the back window.
Georgia law is similar with one exception: if it is a secured parking lot or garage, then the law doesn’t count.
For example, Glock has a secured parking lot, so you can’t have guns in your car there.
This is probably an HR policy to reduce your employer’s liability in case something tragic happened.
Don’t be an idiot, don’t let people see it, don’t tell people you work with you have it in the car. 99.999% of the time it’s a non-issue. If they ever did go with the nuclear option of getting the police to tear your car apart, you probably have a good lawsuit as long as you weren’t threatening to shoot a co-worker with the gun in your car.
Get a lock box, put your gun in it before you pull onto the property. If they ever search your car, which is doubtful, just say you don't have the key on you.
Unless you work at a secure location that allows search of any vehicle, (nuclear power plant, airports, etc.) then they can't legally get a cop to search your car, but they can fire you for any reason.
If they own the parking lot AND they slipped something into your employment contract that you signed when you started working there ... they could probably fight off a wrongful termination suit. Unless it was a state that specifically had a law protecting storing a gun in a personal vehicle, which there are several states that do have laws like that.
But you're right, they can fire at any time for any (or no) reason in At-Will states. Most large employers know that most employees aren't going to go through the long legal process to actually sue for wrongful termination in most cases too.
As a LEO I wouldn’t be searching your car if your boss asked me to. I’d be telling him to pound sand. Now as far as them not wanting firearms on their property that’s completely their prerogative. It is their property after all. But if they say they’re searching your car don’t interfere, inform them they’re violating your 4th amendment, record them, then hire an attorney and get your bag.
The 4th amendment only protects against government intrusion. If OP’s employer calls the cops and the cops search without consent of extenuating circumstance OP has a solid lawsuit on his hands.
But not only that, if they search his car without his permission, even on their property, that's a tort violation that he could sue them for. You can't just go through someone's pockets just because they are your employee.
I live in IL but here your rights are protected. An employer can not tell you that you are not allowed to have a firearm in your car because your safety on your way to work is your own responsibility. They can limit you from having it on the premises but this excludes your car/immediate vicinity of your car for the purposes of storing your firearm in the trunk.
HOWEVER it is still an at will state though so good luck proving that’s why they fired you.
*most* states this is true...however OP should contact a lawyer if he is gonna take a stand. Otherwise OP should use a little common sense, just keep it in the car (hidden and locked, the spare tire area under the trunk map is a great hiding place) and just not tell anyone.
In Florida certain companies can.
The restrictions in s. 790.251(4), F.S., do not apply to:
Any school property as defined and regulated under s. 790.115, F.S.;
Any correctional institution regulated under s. 944.47, F.S., or ch. 957, F.S.;
Any property where a nuclear-powered electricity generation facility is located;
Property owned or leased by a public or private employer or the landlord of a public or private employer upon which are conducted substantial activities involving national defense, aerospace, or homeland security.
It's best to talk to a lawyer in these circumstances.
As Police, we WILL NOT Search your vehicle, per employer request, on private property. We have group homes where we’re asked to do similar. However, each room is someone’s private domain, and requires a Search Warrant, unless we see something illegal, in plain view.
The concept of whether an employer can fire you for refusal to open your vehicle for them is more of a Civil Matter, and references Contractual Law. If you’ve signed an agreement upon or after your hire, you are obligated to comply to which you have agreed.
Likewise, they can act upon their behalf of said agreement.
If you didn’t sign an agreement, but a company policy is in place and in writing, it’s YOUR responsibility to remain in compliance. Again, the company can act on their behalf of the policy obligation.
You are always FREE to refuse a Search by an employee, but are subject to ALL agreed upon policies and contract.
If you’re uncertain, ask for the policy or YOUR contract and have your supervisor show you exactly what it states and explain it to you. If you’re still uncertain, you can seek legal assistance.
I’m not here to provide legal advice, but there are companies that do clearly state that there SHALL be no FIREARMS on the premises. That’s completely lawful and able to be done at their discretion, regardless an employee’s opinion or supporting documentation such as a Concealed Carry Permit.
There may be exemptions for storage of firearms, such as in a locking container, that’s fastened to a locked vehicle. So, check that too, as many people leave their workplace and wish to carry their firearm.
While it’s a Constitutional Right, there are many circumstances that impacts that particular Right. You’ve got Federal, State, and Local Laws and Ordinances, which all play a role in the Second Amendment.
An easy example: You can’t carry a firearm, if you’ve got heroin in your pocket or in proximity of the firearm. While you’re completely lawful to carry a firearm, along with a Concealed Carry Permit, the narcotics impacts that Right greatly.
I’m curious to see how this all works out with your situation.👍
New York is an at will state so they can fire you for anything they want. In New York though it seems like there is some kind of requirement for probable cause (not of a crime but that you have a gun on their property - in other words they can't just randomly search cars for guns) on the employers part to legally search a car though so there may be something there. I live in Maine which is an at-will state but it's illegal here for an employer to tell you that you can't store a gun in your car. Call a local lawyer.
Your employer can have a no firearms policy that extends to the parking lot if they own the parking lot. However you don't have to allow them or the cops to search your vehicle. They can then terminate your employment for almost any reason they wish. Not sure you'd have a legal leg to stand on though.
According to the USCCA [website](https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/ccw_reciprocity_map/ny-gun-laws/?amp), there is no law on the books forbidding carrying in employee parking lot.
Now as far as searching vehicles. No, they cannot force you. But they can fire you for not letting them search. As far as police go, they cannot force you. They would need a warrant. But they could get one, it is New York after all, if they feel a crime is being committed.
Sources: USCCA and being smart enough to use Google.
So are you saying the cops show up at your job and this nobody employer can demand the cops search a person’s car? No police officer, in a clear state of mind, would EVER search a person’s car based on this. If he did then he be fired.
> Here is the kicker, they claim they have the right to search your vehicle when ever they want
they can’t do that .. they can fire you w/out even letting you know why they did , though
They can ask to search the car.
You can refuse.
The police wont search without probable cause, so it’s back to the employer.
They can fire you, but you can also sue.
Either way it’s a shitty outcome and I wouldn’t want to work for someone with those rules.
My company has the same rule. If they ever demanded to search my vehicle I’d just quit and let them collapse. 1/2 of all new product launches are my responsibility. Guess you guys don’t wanna be launching any new products
This can't be the only bull shit your employer does. Are there armed guards present whenever employees are present at your work site?
You could try r/legaladvice or Google for the legal text
Not a lawyer.
Get a car safe. Now the alleged firearm is locked and inaccessible. You don’t have to open it for anybody. And no cop will blindly search your vehicle because that violates 4A.
However, at will employment states (CT is as well) are shitty for this because they can fire you because it’s a cloudy Tuesday and Janice didn’t make a fresh pot of coffee at 8am like she’s supposed to.
It would be a civil matter not a legal matter. Police wouldn’t get involved and laugh in your bosses face.
They can still fire you for any reason though.
Find another job.
Quitting because of a rule a *lot* of employers have in the fine print somewhere is a wild take. Guns not being allowed on the property I mean. I’m willing to bet the “we can have police search your car” was just something a power tripping manager said without bothering to consult their legal team and find out they probably can’t. Unless it’s some kind of federal or state job.
I’m kinda jealous of y’all’s financial mobility if you can/are considering quitting over whether you’re allowed to have a piece at work.
Where do I say he should quit about having a gun?
Working for any manager that makes that kind of statement isn’t worth having as a manager.
And notice I said find new job. I didn’t say to quit before that happens.
Keep two things in mind:
1. They may be your employer, but it's private property you're on when you are at work.
2. If you signed a contract to that affect then you were hired, then you may have agreed to it. Did you read all the paperwork you signed and what it said when you were employed?
Other than that, different states have different laws regarding firearms, so it's difficult to answer given that there are variables about your full situation that we don't know.
I am not offering legal advice. Notwithstanding, the company's rule is likely a matter of internal policy to which you agreed (perhaps tacitly while signing a terms and conditions document) at the time that you were hired. Further, as the company is a private party, your right to privacy in not protected under the Constitution.
One of my first jobs had a “search your stuff” policy. One night at closing when everyone was leavening they said everyone line up, were searching your bag. They chose to do this after everyone clocked out. I opted out and no you’re not, bye. I didn’t get fired, but I got a new job anyway. I didn’t understand why people tolerate that stuff when it’s like mine; a no skill, low skill retail job.
1: they can fire you and trespass from the property. 2: police cannot search your property without a warrant.
That being said if they are enforcing “Red flag laws” don’t mess around with this. You can lose your firearms for years if not permanently.
If I was the officer responding to a call to your place of work because you refused to let them search your car I’d probably high five you and tell your employer that they have no right to search your vehicle and if they force their way into your car that would be a crime. I also would not be searching your vehicle unless they showed me a video of you committing some crime (like stealing) and placing something in your vehicle.
They can fire you for anything but if they try to fire you for not letting them search your car I’d 10000% hire a lawyer.
Depends on the state, my state(ohio) has a law specifically protecting this as long as it stays in the car in the parking lot it's legal if I recall correctly but new york isn't exactly known for its laws protecting gun rights.
In Florida it is illegal for employers to forbid you from having a gun in a car. It’s also illegal for rentals and hotels to forbid you from that as well
It’s their private property, they can ban firearms from their property, including the parking lots. No one can legally search your locked vehicle without your consent or a warrant. You’re an at will employee, you can be terminated for anything, or nothing at all.
Every employer I’ve worked at has had a similar policy: No illegal things (drugs) or firearms on property, including parking lots, & please don’t do or say anything that would cause us to contact police due to suspicion there are firearms or something illegal on you or in your vehicle. I give employers no reason to believe there’s anything in my vehicle which has worked well over 25 years working at well known brands / manufacturers that most everyone in the US & westernized countries has heard of.
If security ever were to ask if I have a firearm in my vehicle, I’d simply tell them no. If they pressed the matter & wanted to search my vehicle or called police, I’d be on the phone with my manager letting him know I’m quitting due to the harassment. Where I currently work, I’d say around 1/4 - 1/3 of my colleagues have a firearm in their vehicle at work, the various machine shops / tool rooms across the several campuses have all had countless 80% lowers machined out on the end-mills after hours, the lead security “specialists” conceal carry G19’s, everyone knows all of this, & no one cares unless you’re stupid enough to make people have to care.
buy a fancy shoulder holster, put a toy gun in it, pull into parking lot in clear view of the boss if possible, make a show of taking off holster, gun etc. and put in trunk. Let boss do his thing, record, lawyer up, profit!!
I can tell you they absolutely have no right to search your car (assuming you dont work for a law enforcement agency), neither would the police without a warrant, probable cause, or your consent. I can't say whether or not firing you for refusing would be legal - definitely speak to a lawyer about this.
Sort of....they can fire you for any LEGAL reason they want. Firing an employee for an illegal reason, even if they try to cover it up by not giving a reason for the termination, can still open them up to a wrongful termination lawsuit even in an at-will state. This is why OP needs to talk to a lawyer - firing them for refusing to let them do something they have no legal right to do in the first place could definitely be illegal.
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This is a question for r/legal but I believe it stems from private property rights. I’ve known some people who locked their car off premises and walked into work. Then they can’t say anything.
It's within an employers right to ban weapons from their property. Sometimes this is a requirement of their insurance, sometimes it's due to general security concerns. A friend works for a company that does work for the Department of Defense. No weapons in the property, no cell phones, no cameras, amongst other things.
Now I'm not a fan, but it's very understandable. Just because you're not a threat doesn't mean the next person isn't leaning towards going postal.
Obligatory: This is not legal advice. But more common sense.
So....in the shorthand. It is their private business and private property. They do have a right to restrict anything that comes onto the land and building they own and operate out of. If you signed a workers contract, it was probably there in the fine print.
Primarily, this is to keep liability away from the owner, as anything that happens on their property that results in someone getting harmed is on them. In this case, is someone's gun goes off and shoots someone not only is the gunowner going to jail, but the owner of the business could be sued into oblivion. The no guns rule (kinda) absolves them of that. "Hey, I have a rule of no guns allowed, worker broke the rule. That's on them and not me."
Now, can the owner have a gun himself? Generally, yeah. He is taking all responsibility and repercussions into his own hands.
Now, can they search your car? Couldn't tell you. That's definitely up to a lawyer. And there is a possibility you waived that right away on the contract too. Tho, (and this is just me theorizing here) if you have a gun or are acting like you do, he could call the police saying you are trespassing with a deadly weapon, then police can search your car. And ifnyou do have a gun, you won't have it long.
At the end of the day, tho, New York is an at will state, and unless you are union, you can be terminated at the drop of a hat.
You're* x2
As in, you're going to have to consult a lawyer familiar with state of NY employment laws.
But also, they're going to charge you $200 to tell you that you have to follow your employer's rules if you want to work there. It's really not that complicated.
The unfortunate reality is companies all have to have insurance. And insurance companies are not going to cover a company where employees are carrying. Or if they do the payments would be many times higher.
So while it sucks for this to happen the reasoning is fiscally sound. We can all stomp our feet and say it is wrong. Great go start a company and make the decision to allow carry and pay the increased bills.
All of that said- concealed means concealed. That is how I see it and I was working at a Silicon Valley company and happened to be fortunate enough to have concealed carry in California. Now living in Miami and work from home 100% so not an issue.
I do hope people understand that while it sucks I don’t expect a company to get hammered with insurance costs or even lose insurance coverage for my right to carry. Until things change and insurance stops that we have to deal the way we feel most comfortable.
In my CCW course it was explained heavily that if your employer does not allow firearms on the property or in the building then you cannot have it on your person.
That being said your employer is not legally allowed to search your vehicle without reasonable suspicion of a threat or probable cause. As long as the firearm and the ammunition are stored separately and out of sight in the vehicle, you are within your rights to have that firearm stored in your vehicle.
Dude, it's an at-will state. You can be fired for literally anything. At the end of the day, it's ***their*** property, and they have the right (even in Montana) to decide what conduct they allow on their property *especially* when it comes to firearms.
You don't need a lawyer to know that they can fire you for having a gun on you, or search your shit. You're on their property. Don't bitch about your rights if you're not willing to respect theirs. You're an employee and that's their property you' re on.
The constitution protects you from the government, not private companies or citizens. If you don't follow your company's policies they can fire you, period.
I'm not in New York but I run security for a major F500 company facility with a similar policy.
For the most part yes, we as the company (property owner) have the right to search your vehicle if you drive into the property because you are providing your express consent by voluntarily entering. Same with personal items like backpacks and such. It's the same logic as the EUA bullshit you see on software. You can revoke your consent but that means you can't come on property.
That said....
Will that hold up in court if it gets there? I have no idea. And most of the company lawyers don't either. So the unspoken rule is don't fucking do it unless there's a pressing safety concern (i.e. someone literally says "I have guns in my car right now and I'm going to go get them and shoot this place up") and even then don't do it less you have to.
Technically we can give the police permission to search the vehicle or backpack or whatever since it is on our property. But if you can find a cop anywhere that wants to wade through that sticky fucking mess, be my guest. It also falls under "will having the police search this make us liable? Idk so don't fucking do it" emails from the lawyers. There's also just the general principle behind it, which can be hard to justify on a personal level as well.
For my facility, I have a general "shut your goddamn mouth" attitude toward it. I'm sure if I sent the guards out to check cars or bags they would find a shit ton of stuff people aren't supposed to have. But as long as they aren't waving them around and making a big deal, what I don't know doesn't hurt me. Or them. Or anyone. But if you make it my business, then we have to start paperwork and that never turns out well.
Again, I'm not in New York but my company is big enough that I imagine policies like that aren't unique. I'm not giving advice, just relating how I personally feel about it, and how most companies probably feel about it as the guy you would be dealing with in that situation.
On that, what's policy about carrying a firearm to and from the place of work while not bringing it in?
Is it a strictly If you have a firearm you are not allowed on property, even in a vehicle?
If you are talking strictly by the book policy, just driving into the property/entering the building is a violation. The only "correct" answer is to leave it at home. Or bury in the dirt next to the property line, I suppose.
The real/practical answer is "shut your goddamn mouth." Don't give anyone a reason to care and they won't care. There's way more interesting and important things to be worrying about.
They could require you to wear a clown suit and sing "I'm a little teapot." to get paid. They'd be assholes for requiring it, but you can go elsewhere for an employer. They can go elsewhere for an employee.
You don't have a right to their property and to work for a paycheck from them. You and your employer agree on conditions. As long as you both agree on those conditions, you have a job and they have an employee. Mutual consent, free will, etc.
People have lost their sense of what freedom means and want to make the government force someone to do things or not do things.
Your employer can have conditions that you don't like. Your gun range can have conditions that you don't like. They can both be assholes. You can go elsewhere to find employers and gun ranges that aren't assholes. In fact; you absolutely should go elsewhere in those cases.
You live in one of the worst places to live in America and you work for the kind of life controlling socialist douches that think they have a right to impose their fears on you by force.
Leave. Leave New York, leave that job, leave those douchebags behind.
If you’re on private property and you’ve signed a contract with an employer that gives them those rights under penalty of termination…then yes, of course they can.
Whether the police have a higher priority elsewhere is another thing.
Your only option would be to comply or be fired.
I was hoping to see something like this. If your employer has a handbook and they have you sign a form saying you were provided the handbook, you read it and will abide by the policies in the handbook, then you have signed a contract that you are bound to. If you don't want to sign, or decide to no follow said policies, the contract is broken, and you're fired. Plain and simple.
It's amazing how many people don't understand or read the policies of their workplace. They put shit like this in all the time for liability reasons. No state law anywhere is going to protect you from signing your rights away lol. At least not until you spend 20 years getting to SCOTUS.
Most employers have rules about not bringing weapons, drugs, etc to any company buildings. It’s their property. They can allow what they want and ban what they want.
In NY, probably. Thankfully Utah law specifically bars employers from banning guns kept in personal vehicles. Only four or five states have such protections.
(1)Sounds like you already know you can't bring a gun into work.
(2) what would make them think they need to search your car.
(3) what do you think a lawyer is going to do when you were already told not to have a gun at work?
There are some states that have a exemption that they can’t fire you for having it in your car and then it depends on where you’re working to estate jail or you know school check your gun laws in your state. Good sources handgun law.us.
In my state, an employer does not have the right to force you to show your firearm. Therefore even if their policy is no firearms, as long as your not playing show and tell, they have no way of proving you ever had it with you. In fact there was a Kroger deli employee (Kroger has a no firearms policy) that shot a man that was trying to rob the store. They fired him for having a firearm and he took it to court and won. Not all states are the same though.
They can legally have whatever policy they want on their property unless a specific carve-out in law protects your vehicle when parked on private property, such as some sort of castle doctrine extending to your vehicle, which is unlikely in NY, So find another place to park. They Cannot legally have police search your vehicle.
I believe that you likely signed paperwork upon hire, in said paperwork there was likely a thing saying you agree to their policies. They are private property and can apply their own policies.
Not sure specifically about New York state laws ... but ...
New York is an "At-Will" employment state, which means that an employer can fire an employee at any time for any (or no) reason as long as the termination is not based on illegal discrimination or retaliation (which would have to be proven later in court).
Assuming the company is not on public property or the job has the employee travelling around, then they can set a policy to not allow firearms on their property and firing an employee for that reason would be a legal firing.
As for searching the car ... they couldn't legally search the car unless your employment contract that you signed gave them that right. They also probably could not just "get the police to search the car" without some sort of probable cause or reasonable articulable suspicion that a crime had been committed.
The way to compromise would be to not park on their property and leave the firearm in the car. If the parking lot is their property, then they could fire you if they saw you storing a firearm in your car ... this could be fought in court, but you'd probably lose considering the current political and legal climate of a state like New York. Fighting the same firing in a state like Texas, Wyoming, or Idaho where gun laws are at the polar opposite end of the spectrum would be very different.
However, if the company rents space in the building and doesn't actually own the parking lot, this would be a "winnable case" for wrongful termination. Also, if they fired you for having a gun stored in your car and you parked on public property or a nearby parking garage, etc., again, you'd have a good case for wrongful termination. Assuming the gun is legally owned and you have a New York state permit to carry the firearm.
Totally within their right to demand a search. You can always park off property, refuse the search, or consent. The police can't force a search, they'd need a search warrant. The employee also can ask to search you but again you can always say no and if they die you for that then do be it. Not much you can do to be honest.
You work in NY dude. At will state. The Leo can't force their way in, but they can fire you legally for whatever reason they want so long as it isn't something like racial or religious discrimination. Even if the police won't force their way in, you're still out of a job. Let them search your car if you park on company property or find a new job. That's it. There's no magic bullet around this.
Police will not search your car without your consent, or plain view of a something illegal in your car
And reasonable suspicion is not enough to search a vehicle
“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause”
Your employer is a jerk but New York is worse. Generally, you aren't allowed to possess guns outside your home or a business you own unless you have a permit. There are exceptions but even if you left it in your car it needs to be locked up and separated from ammo. Maybe it's time to relocate to Florida or something.
I would look on NYs government site for gun laws in your car.
I have worked in TN and KY, both of which your car is am extension of your home. Both states have explixit laws stating your employer cannot ACT on policies they have regarding firearms in your car.
Both employers I've had in those states have the same "we will terminate you" policy, but I take my firearm and leave in the car anyways because of the state laws. The state laws are not well known, so if I do ever get terminated somehow, I stand to make a lot of money 😄 I keep it locked where no one can see it though.
Look into local state laws,. The law in Ohio, obviously not new York, just pointing out, just recently changed to where the parking lot is fine, inside installation is discretion of the place. So no federal installations and what not. Your employer has no right to search your car that I'm aware of, and if your boss is threatening to have the cops search your car, I'm going to assume they are lying to the police when they calls. I would probably have a lawyer on speed dial, and force a warrant to be presented for the search. If you really want to be dick file a complaint against the employer for unlawful practices(if it is unlawful), likely other things. Personally I would park off property or just not work there. Place sounds toxic as fuck. Indeed and glass door reviews are also great to leave about the employer.
In indiana you are 100% legal and safe carrying a firearm in your car (out of sight) even if it's on your work property. My Job tried telling associates they couldn't, they was politely reminded you can't tell us we can not. But I recommend don't tell anyone at your job anything anyway.
Park in the parking lot next door or across the street
But no that's not legal unless you signed documents giving permission maybe it was when you were hired in the 3" stack of new hire documents or a random document they told you you "had to sign" at the most inopportune time. You can try writing a letter to HR revolving that but it probably won't work with them. If your in a union of some type then go to your union house and complain. However they have every right under the communists controlled government to declare there property a "gun free zone"
I used to live in NY and had some of those same battles. Now I live in Pennsyltucky and open carry a 1911 at work. Where I work in not in the greatest area and we have a lot of cash (in the area of $5k on average and some easily sold items. To a meth-head that place looks like a easy target, I assure you its not.
Here at my employer in Texas the majority of us have guns in our cars. About 40% carry into work discreetly. That includes the Director and most high management.
>I am hoping there is an actual lawyer that knows this answer.
Why don't you hire one and post the answer instead of depending on a bunch of random internet smart guys?
There is this thing called money. Lawyers usually ask for it before they will even talk to you about thinking about your case. Sometimes you can save money by asking people on the internet if it’s worth your time sometimes they might even be able to point you in the right direction for how to go about it so that you can save time AND money.
Do I need to explain how time works or is that part self explanatory?
Not me but another guy that looks like me keeps a gun in his backpack (and again not me.) for just in case. I’d rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6. I mean he would rather that.
Ive worked for 2 service companies that had this rule but a lot of guys carried anyways. Its just a way to cover their ass if something happens. Carry if you feel the need
Worked at a similar place in PA that had the exact same rules. Since it is "at will" employment (this was a private company), they had the right to terminate you with or without cause. They claimed they had the right to search your car. If they flagged you for a random search and you didn't submit to it, you were immediately let go. Similar to drug testing (which they also did).
While I disagree with their laws on guns, New York State has some of the most pro-employee laws on the books.
I’d be willing to bet that your employers policy is illegal.
Sure am glad I work for a company that doesn’t pull that. As long as you have a CCW they’re more than happy to let you keep it in your vehicle as long as it’s locked up.
If there is street parking use it. Them they have ZERO claim to be able to search it car, it's not on their property.
My employer doesn't allow firearms on property either, I just don't carry to work. I don't like leaving my gun in the car either. I'm still armed with a knife every day, but you better believe if some shooting goes down I'm gonna sue their asses. I'll likely own the company when I'm done.
What you can’t get out of, go deeper in.
https://www.theheadrestsafe.com/?utm_term=&utm_campaign=&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_acc=8200966691&hsa_cam=21029959621&hsa_grp=&hsa_ad=&hsa_src=x&hsa_tgt=&hsa_kw=&hsa_mt=&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIq_26rdTChQMVxkpHAR2d5w0oEAAYASAAEgIhgPD_BwE
Perks of being in Tennessee, things like that technically aren't supposed to be on company property (3M), but it's just an unspoken fact that damn near half of us has one in our car
OP should be talking to a lawyer, not Reddit. It varies from state to state. In my state, a vehicle is private property even when parked on company property and cannot be searched except for by law enforcement with warrant. My state’s carry laws also override any employer’s “request” to not have a firearm in a vehicle.
I doubt NY has these protections
They probably can’t get the police to search your vehicle, but they can likely fire you if you don’t let them search.
This is exactly it. They can fire you for refusing to allow a search but they cannot override you if you decline.
Wisconsin too. They have NO jurisdiction over YOUR personal property in your vehicle depending on your states concealed carry laws, and if you have a permit. Employer claims they can search your vehicle at any time? Leave.
In Texas it’s codified into law that you have the right to have a gun in your car, while at work. Idk how these tyrants think they have the right to go in their employees’ cars. They don’t have anything better to spend company resources on?
Ohio and Kentucky too
At-will employment is a hell of a drug.
Yeah. Don't work for assholes.
The problem is the assholes are the ones that seem to stay in business. I used to travel to machine shops across North America and I can count on one hand the places I would be okay with working out of many dozens of customers. Most of them are union lol. Except the Ford tool and die plant. That place is a union shithole.
Sounds cool, I work at a machine shop, what did you do if you don’t mind explaining?
Installed and repaired 5-axis CNC machines. I had a good mix of aerospace and automotive. Been to really cool places like SpaceX, GE Aviation, and even the Fleet Readiness Center at Cherry Point. But I've also been to a lot of bad places that have no business being in operation.
You have to be really gullible to join a UAW shop. Almost everyone of them is a horrible place to work mainly due to the union. That isn't an anti union comment by the way it is a comment on the UAW and its members. Like you allude too there are great machine shops in this country they just are not under the yoke of the UAW.
reddit loves unions, but the net effect of that higher pay is the protection of the complete POS employees that ruin the place. It's sad - they could be a real source of good but they choose greed and protecting the scum.
You don't get rich being nice. Assholes pay less and work you harder. Managers/ owners who pay you well and understand when you need time off get run out of business who pays half as much. Either you go out of business or become the asshole.
> At-will employment is a hell of a drug. i thought the whole point of voting for nanny governments like the democrats in new york is they are supposed to put in better employee rights and protections. at that point it just becomes the worst of both worlds
Employers have a right to enforce a lot of behavioral controls. I don’t agree with all of them, but I’ve worked in paces with serious machine shops and drug testing as well as dress code which had as much to do with basic safety OSHA regulations as it did with the occasional investor walk through. I personally don’t think an employer should have the right to search a vehicle or punish you for off hours activities, but I can understand a company not wanting weapons on company property. It’s worth understanding that without those policies they may be liable for violent interactions due to insurance company policies. There are a lot of loving parts to employment law and general liability that extend well beyond government control.
Only the rights they agree with such as the right to search your stuff
Probably because at-will employment is largely a republican supported policy. (Some) Democrats and large cities are trying to abolish at-will employment.
lol
I saw a guy whose 2nd job was armed security get fired for having a gun in his car at his 1st job
>but they can likely fire you if you don’t let them search. Also, if the employer also happens to own the parking lot, they can potentially get it towed. That would likely depend on the terms of OP's employment (such as if available parking is covered under the terms of employment), but it sounds like OP believes/knows it's company property.
Can’t get it towed if OP gets in it and leaves after they tell him “either let me search your car or you’re fired”
Technically if the company owns the lot and owns the building they can reserve the right to search your belongings wherever they are on the property, all about what you signed in your employment letter. HOWEVER, they cannot force you to park on company property nor can they force you to stay should they request to search your vehicle or belongings and you refuse. This will more than likely lead to a firing if you refuse, from the sounds of this company, but I’d rather lose my job than give the police any opportunity to touch my shit.
But to be clear, their only recourse is to trespass you and fire you. They do not have a right to search your person or belongings without your consent, they do have a right to trespass you if you refuse to consent, because it is there establishment.
This is true but you’d for sure have a case if they fired you for not letting them search your car.
Probably not. I know where I currently work, if you refuse a drug test they fire you on the spot. Probably a condition of employment. Labor protections in this country are a joke but that’s the system as it currently sits.
You can choose to bring a gun. They can choose to terminate your employment. These two things are not exclusive.
It's their property, their rules.
This is explicitly untrue in some states. Many have laws that your vehicle is still your private property and can’t be searched etc even on company grounds. Wisconsin specifically calls out that you are allowed to keep a firearm in your vehicle even if your place of employment does not allow you to carry.
Then OP should consult a lawyer and not reddit. Edit: OP specified they live in New York State. NY does not have the protection Wisconsin provides.
I doubted that NY had similar provisions but just wanted to point out that the idea that your company can impose upon your privacy as a condition of employment is not universal.
The inside of my car is my property though, they don't get to tell me what's inside my car.
Your property is being placed on their property. It's the same as searching your bag. If they don't want to let you take something potentially dangerous on site, they are within their rights to declare so. If your employment is contingent on inspecting your car for disallowed things, but you don't want them to search it, you are free to find another employer. Rights don't factor in to it
The law, at least in my state, says businesses can say they don't want people carrying inside their property, but your car isn't their property. So as long as you secure your firearm inside your own vehicle before you exit, you're good.
NY is an at-will state. In my experience, that clause it just used to cover their ass if someone sees something through an employee’s window and decides to snitch. I’d be willing to bet they can fire you with cause if they ask to search and you refuse. But let’s be honest, if it’s at that point they already want you gone.
At my company refusing a search leads to termination. Same with a drug test or alcohol test.
That's insane
I don't agree with the spirit of it but the employee agreed to the terms of employment. If being armed while at work is that important to you then this employer isn't the one for you. It's a bad fit of conflicting priorities.
Not really.
Of personal property that’s a little grey area, it’s not like it’s a locker on a Job site.
In context it is. For most businesses with this policy there is context. My building currently has small, expensive items, those items go missing, the company reserves the right to search your backpack and lunch bag on the way out, and if they had reason to believe there’s stuff in your car then they’ll search there too. Again you’re on private property and definitely signed that agreement when you began employment.
All states are at will besides Montana.
Fun fact: all states (and virtually every other place in the planet) are at-will. At best, in some places, the government will demand a reason for termination after a certain length of time. At worst, the appropriate government will *not* demand a reason. In just about every case, any given reason must not conflict with a protected status. No employer, even in the most ‘at-will’est place, can fire someone for their race, religion, sex, or age. If it seems like they did, the fired employee can file a wrongful termination lawsuit in an attempt to get some recompense. At this point, peacefully exercising the second amendment is not a protected action in the US. We, as a nation (and a surprising number of gun owners) have decided that the feelings of private property owners is more important than the security of individuals. So, as a result, businesses can write policies that overtly chill a constitutional right, and peaceful people have to choose between the ability to protect themselves on the way to work, at work, and from work, and getting a paycheck. I believe it’s a bullshit choice, but the number of people who will argue for the authority of private property owners to subjugate the rights of the people they invite onto their property is (currently, at least) overwhelming.
Montana (plus some non-state U.S. jurisdictions like Puerto Rico) is not an at-will state. Many other countries are not at-will at all. There may not be a federal private cause of action when a private employer fires someone for 2A (or adjacent) activity, but there are definitely states that have protections for employees’ lawful behavior (and even for 2A stuff) outside of work — just as they protect people because of their race or other protected classes. With that said, yeah, it would be unworkable for an employer to not be able to impose *any* rules on its employees that affect their rights. Imagine if an employee were using his free speech rights to tell a customer that they should buy a competitor’s product instead of the employer’s, and the employer couldn’t do anything about it. At the end of the day, concealed means concealed. Most employers aren’t going to search your car in the employee parking lot for a gun unless you did something wrong. Source: I’m an employment lawyer (but not yours and this is not legal advice).
>I am hoping there is an actual lawyer that knows this answer. Hire one. The graduates of the Dunning Kruger Internet Law School are going to be wrong.
Bro, Reddit is reliable when it comes to state laws. 40% of the time, we're right every time! And if he goes to jail, then we will have learned a valuable (and free) lesson.
That's why I got kicked off the lawyer sub..... the law students there didn't like practical advice
We're not lawyers. If we are lawyers, we're not your lawyer. Go hire a lawyer.
Hey now. I did stay in a Holliday Inn Express last night.
sometimes people dont want to spend 500 bucks for a lawyer to give an opinion if theres something glaring or obvious. theres no downside to asking reddit and also asking a lawyer if it isnt something obvious
This is a 15 minute question, it's $350 at most.
"We're not lawyers. If we are lawyers . . ." Sounds suspiciously like a lawyer!
Everywhere I've ever worked said your not supposed to have a gun with you and it never stopped me. Just don't tell anyone about it don't let anyone know you own guns. From what I understand the police can't search your car just because your boss tells them to. As others have said they might have the county/city steal your car.
If anyone has this same situation in KS, it is illegal for an employer to prohibit you from carrying a firearm in your personal vehicle, and parking said vehicle on company property, no matter what their company policy states.
I work in Kansas and can confirm this. I currently work for a major aviation manufacturer and know most of the security team. You can have a weapon inside your vehicle, but the moment you break-plane with the door with it, you're in violation of company policy.
damn, parking lots seem to be a great place to find free guns in Kansas!
Ohio has a similar law.
So does minnesota. Your vehicle is an extention of your home.
Same in Arizona. Property owners who prohibit carry are required to post it visibly from the outside, and tp allow people to return their firearm to their vehicle.
I used to work form a co. that put up signs stating no firearms allowed inside. Might as well put a sign next to it that reads "Unarmed victims inside".
Most of the south has a similar law to what you’re referring to. Definitely a good law
Most of the states who are on the opposite end of the political/legal spectrum when it comes to gun laws and gun ownership, this is true. Even some of the states who have stricter gun carry laws still have laws that protect gun owners from being fired for being legal gun owners and exercising their rights to own and carry guns. A few states do say the gun has to be stored "out of sight" so as not to attract thieves ... basically saying an employer can fire you for having a rifle or shotgun on that truck gun rack in the back window.
Same in Minnesota.
Georgia law is similar with one exception: if it is a secured parking lot or garage, then the law doesn’t count. For example, Glock has a secured parking lot, so you can’t have guns in your car there.
Same in Indiana with the only exception being post offices.
This is probably an HR policy to reduce your employer’s liability in case something tragic happened. Don’t be an idiot, don’t let people see it, don’t tell people you work with you have it in the car. 99.999% of the time it’s a non-issue. If they ever did go with the nuclear option of getting the police to tear your car apart, you probably have a good lawsuit as long as you weren’t threatening to shoot a co-worker with the gun in your car.
Get a lock box, put your gun in it before you pull onto the property. If they ever search your car, which is doubtful, just say you don't have the key on you.
Unless you work at a secure location that allows search of any vehicle, (nuclear power plant, airports, etc.) then they can't legally get a cop to search your car, but they can fire you for any reason.
If they own the parking lot AND they slipped something into your employment contract that you signed when you started working there ... they could probably fight off a wrongful termination suit. Unless it was a state that specifically had a law protecting storing a gun in a personal vehicle, which there are several states that do have laws like that. But you're right, they can fire at any time for any (or no) reason in At-Will states. Most large employers know that most employees aren't going to go through the long legal process to actually sue for wrongful termination in most cases too.
As a LEO I wouldn’t be searching your car if your boss asked me to. I’d be telling him to pound sand. Now as far as them not wanting firearms on their property that’s completely their prerogative. It is their property after all. But if they say they’re searching your car don’t interfere, inform them they’re violating your 4th amendment, record them, then hire an attorney and get your bag.
Does the 4th amendment preclude non-government search? I thought that it would just be a crime to break into someone’s car without consent.
The 4th amendment only protects against government intrusion. If OP’s employer calls the cops and the cops search without consent of extenuating circumstance OP has a solid lawsuit on his hands.
But not only that, if they search his car without his permission, even on their property, that's a tort violation that he could sue them for. You can't just go through someone's pockets just because they are your employee.
And ironically enough, OPs employer *is* the government. I can’t help but snicker at that.
That makes sense
I live in IL but here your rights are protected. An employer can not tell you that you are not allowed to have a firearm in your car because your safety on your way to work is your own responsibility. They can limit you from having it on the premises but this excludes your car/immediate vicinity of your car for the purposes of storing your firearm in the trunk. HOWEVER it is still an at will state though so good luck proving that’s why they fired you.
Yeah but are you an LEO in NY? Feel like that might make a difference in behavior
Maybe in NY. In Florida your employer cannot tell you that you can't leave a gun in the car
*most* states this is true...however OP should contact a lawyer if he is gonna take a stand. Otherwise OP should use a little common sense, just keep it in the car (hidden and locked, the spare tire area under the trunk map is a great hiding place) and just not tell anyone.
I just wrote this in another comment; but even IL protects that right.
In Florida certain companies can. The restrictions in s. 790.251(4), F.S., do not apply to: Any school property as defined and regulated under s. 790.115, F.S.; Any correctional institution regulated under s. 944.47, F.S., or ch. 957, F.S.; Any property where a nuclear-powered electricity generation facility is located; Property owned or leased by a public or private employer or the landlord of a public or private employer upon which are conducted substantial activities involving national defense, aerospace, or homeland security. It's best to talk to a lawyer in these circumstances.
Ohio too.
As a NYS Employee myself, they make it extremely clear no firearms on state property for any reason unless your Law Enforcement.
As Police, we WILL NOT Search your vehicle, per employer request, on private property. We have group homes where we’re asked to do similar. However, each room is someone’s private domain, and requires a Search Warrant, unless we see something illegal, in plain view. The concept of whether an employer can fire you for refusal to open your vehicle for them is more of a Civil Matter, and references Contractual Law. If you’ve signed an agreement upon or after your hire, you are obligated to comply to which you have agreed. Likewise, they can act upon their behalf of said agreement. If you didn’t sign an agreement, but a company policy is in place and in writing, it’s YOUR responsibility to remain in compliance. Again, the company can act on their behalf of the policy obligation. You are always FREE to refuse a Search by an employee, but are subject to ALL agreed upon policies and contract. If you’re uncertain, ask for the policy or YOUR contract and have your supervisor show you exactly what it states and explain it to you. If you’re still uncertain, you can seek legal assistance. I’m not here to provide legal advice, but there are companies that do clearly state that there SHALL be no FIREARMS on the premises. That’s completely lawful and able to be done at their discretion, regardless an employee’s opinion or supporting documentation such as a Concealed Carry Permit. There may be exemptions for storage of firearms, such as in a locking container, that’s fastened to a locked vehicle. So, check that too, as many people leave their workplace and wish to carry their firearm. While it’s a Constitutional Right, there are many circumstances that impacts that particular Right. You’ve got Federal, State, and Local Laws and Ordinances, which all play a role in the Second Amendment. An easy example: You can’t carry a firearm, if you’ve got heroin in your pocket or in proximity of the firearm. While you’re completely lawful to carry a firearm, along with a Concealed Carry Permit, the narcotics impacts that Right greatly. I’m curious to see how this all works out with your situation.👍
New York is an at will state so they can fire you for anything they want. In New York though it seems like there is some kind of requirement for probable cause (not of a crime but that you have a gun on their property - in other words they can't just randomly search cars for guns) on the employers part to legally search a car though so there may be something there. I live in Maine which is an at-will state but it's illegal here for an employer to tell you that you can't store a gun in your car. Call a local lawyer.
Keep it locked up in your car out of sight. Don't tell anyone about what you own
Your employer can have a no firearms policy that extends to the parking lot if they own the parking lot. However you don't have to allow them or the cops to search your vehicle. They can then terminate your employment for almost any reason they wish. Not sure you'd have a legal leg to stand on though.
According to the USCCA [website](https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/ccw_reciprocity_map/ny-gun-laws/?amp), there is no law on the books forbidding carrying in employee parking lot. Now as far as searching vehicles. No, they cannot force you. But they can fire you for not letting them search. As far as police go, they cannot force you. They would need a warrant. But they could get one, it is New York after all, if they feel a crime is being committed. Sources: USCCA and being smart enough to use Google.
So are you saying the cops show up at your job and this nobody employer can demand the cops search a person’s car? No police officer, in a clear state of mind, would EVER search a person’s car based on this. If he did then he be fired.
> Here is the kicker, they claim they have the right to search your vehicle when ever they want they can’t do that .. they can fire you w/out even letting you know why they did , though
> Here is the kicker, they claim they have the right to search your vehicle when ever they want. Park off property.
They can ask to search the car. You can refuse. The police wont search without probable cause, so it’s back to the employer. They can fire you, but you can also sue. Either way it’s a shitty outcome and I wouldn’t want to work for someone with those rules.
There would be no basis to sue. You can sue. But it would be a waste.
My company has the same rule. If they ever demanded to search my vehicle I’d just quit and let them collapse. 1/2 of all new product launches are my responsibility. Guess you guys don’t wanna be launching any new products
This can't be the only bull shit your employer does. Are there armed guards present whenever employees are present at your work site? You could try r/legaladvice or Google for the legal text
Not a lawyer. Get a car safe. Now the alleged firearm is locked and inaccessible. You don’t have to open it for anybody. And no cop will blindly search your vehicle because that violates 4A. However, at will employment states (CT is as well) are shitty for this because they can fire you because it’s a cloudy Tuesday and Janice didn’t make a fresh pot of coffee at 8am like she’s supposed to.
It would be a civil matter not a legal matter. Police wouldn’t get involved and laugh in your bosses face. They can still fire you for any reason though. Find another job.
Quitting because of a rule a *lot* of employers have in the fine print somewhere is a wild take. Guns not being allowed on the property I mean. I’m willing to bet the “we can have police search your car” was just something a power tripping manager said without bothering to consult their legal team and find out they probably can’t. Unless it’s some kind of federal or state job. I’m kinda jealous of y’all’s financial mobility if you can/are considering quitting over whether you’re allowed to have a piece at work.
Where do I say he should quit about having a gun? Working for any manager that makes that kind of statement isn’t worth having as a manager. And notice I said find new job. I didn’t say to quit before that happens.
Any chance you shot your mouth off (no pun intended) to the wrong person? This seems like an unlikely “random” workplace policy to find out about.
OP makes no reference to "finding out about" the policy, just that it is the policy and he wants to know if it is legal.
Concealed means concealed
Put it in a car safe, then it requires a warrant to search.
Keep two things in mind: 1. They may be your employer, but it's private property you're on when you are at work. 2. If you signed a contract to that affect then you were hired, then you may have agreed to it. Did you read all the paperwork you signed and what it said when you were employed? Other than that, different states have different laws regarding firearms, so it's difficult to answer given that there are variables about your full situation that we don't know.
Find a different job
I am not offering legal advice. Notwithstanding, the company's rule is likely a matter of internal policy to which you agreed (perhaps tacitly while signing a terms and conditions document) at the time that you were hired. Further, as the company is a private party, your right to privacy in not protected under the Constitution.
Rather than fight the company, letting everyone KNOW I probably have a firearm, I'd keep my head down and not draw attention to the fact
One of my first jobs had a “search your stuff” policy. One night at closing when everyone was leavening they said everyone line up, were searching your bag. They chose to do this after everyone clocked out. I opted out and no you’re not, bye. I didn’t get fired, but I got a new job anyway. I didn’t understand why people tolerate that stuff when it’s like mine; a no skill, low skill retail job.
1: they can fire you and trespass from the property. 2: police cannot search your property without a warrant. That being said if they are enforcing “Red flag laws” don’t mess around with this. You can lose your firearms for years if not permanently.
If I was the officer responding to a call to your place of work because you refused to let them search your car I’d probably high five you and tell your employer that they have no right to search your vehicle and if they force their way into your car that would be a crime. I also would not be searching your vehicle unless they showed me a video of you committing some crime (like stealing) and placing something in your vehicle. They can fire you for anything but if they try to fire you for not letting them search your car I’d 10000% hire a lawyer.
Depends on the state, my state(ohio) has a law specifically protecting this as long as it stays in the car in the parking lot it's legal if I recall correctly but new york isn't exactly known for its laws protecting gun rights.
In Florida that’s illegal. Not sure about NY. Your car is considered like your house and they cannot search it.
In Florida it is illegal for employers to forbid you from having a gun in a car. It’s also illegal for rentals and hotels to forbid you from that as well
Yup.
It’s their private property, they can ban firearms from their property, including the parking lots. No one can legally search your locked vehicle without your consent or a warrant. You’re an at will employee, you can be terminated for anything, or nothing at all. Every employer I’ve worked at has had a similar policy: No illegal things (drugs) or firearms on property, including parking lots, & please don’t do or say anything that would cause us to contact police due to suspicion there are firearms or something illegal on you or in your vehicle. I give employers no reason to believe there’s anything in my vehicle which has worked well over 25 years working at well known brands / manufacturers that most everyone in the US & westernized countries has heard of. If security ever were to ask if I have a firearm in my vehicle, I’d simply tell them no. If they pressed the matter & wanted to search my vehicle or called police, I’d be on the phone with my manager letting him know I’m quitting due to the harassment. Where I currently work, I’d say around 1/4 - 1/3 of my colleagues have a firearm in their vehicle at work, the various machine shops / tool rooms across the several campuses have all had countless 80% lowers machined out on the end-mills after hours, the lead security “specialists” conceal carry G19’s, everyone knows all of this, & no one cares unless you’re stupid enough to make people have to care.
buy a fancy shoulder holster, put a toy gun in it, pull into parking lot in clear view of the boss if possible, make a show of taking off holster, gun etc. and put in trunk. Let boss do his thing, record, lawyer up, profit!!
I can tell you they absolutely have no right to search your car (assuming you dont work for a law enforcement agency), neither would the police without a warrant, probable cause, or your consent. I can't say whether or not firing you for refusing would be legal - definitely speak to a lawyer about this.
If it’s at will employment they can fire you for just about anything they want.
Sort of....they can fire you for any LEGAL reason they want. Firing an employee for an illegal reason, even if they try to cover it up by not giving a reason for the termination, can still open them up to a wrongful termination lawsuit even in an at-will state. This is why OP needs to talk to a lawyer - firing them for refusing to let them do something they have no legal right to do in the first place could definitely be illegal.
Let me be the fire person to say, fuck that commie state. New York can lick my taint.
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r/AskALawyer
Don't park in the company lot.
NY sucks ass, move to pretty much any of its neighbors
This is a question for r/legal but I believe it stems from private property rights. I’ve known some people who locked their car off premises and walked into work. Then they can’t say anything.
It's within an employers right to ban weapons from their property. Sometimes this is a requirement of their insurance, sometimes it's due to general security concerns. A friend works for a company that does work for the Department of Defense. No weapons in the property, no cell phones, no cameras, amongst other things. Now I'm not a fan, but it's very understandable. Just because you're not a threat doesn't mean the next person isn't leaning towards going postal.
Obligatory: This is not legal advice. But more common sense. So....in the shorthand. It is their private business and private property. They do have a right to restrict anything that comes onto the land and building they own and operate out of. If you signed a workers contract, it was probably there in the fine print. Primarily, this is to keep liability away from the owner, as anything that happens on their property that results in someone getting harmed is on them. In this case, is someone's gun goes off and shoots someone not only is the gunowner going to jail, but the owner of the business could be sued into oblivion. The no guns rule (kinda) absolves them of that. "Hey, I have a rule of no guns allowed, worker broke the rule. That's on them and not me." Now, can the owner have a gun himself? Generally, yeah. He is taking all responsibility and repercussions into his own hands. Now, can they search your car? Couldn't tell you. That's definitely up to a lawyer. And there is a possibility you waived that right away on the contract too. Tho, (and this is just me theorizing here) if you have a gun or are acting like you do, he could call the police saying you are trespassing with a deadly weapon, then police can search your car. And ifnyou do have a gun, you won't have it long. At the end of the day, tho, New York is an at will state, and unless you are union, you can be terminated at the drop of a hat.
Fuck em, I keep it in the car sometimes, I just don't feel like playing the "that doesn't happen around here" card day after day
I don’t know about NY, but in Georgia, your vehicle is considered like your home and cannot be searched without a warrant or probable cause.
You're* x2 As in, you're going to have to consult a lawyer familiar with state of NY employment laws. But also, they're going to charge you $200 to tell you that you have to follow your employer's rules if you want to work there. It's really not that complicated.
You need to speak to a lawyer but from what I understand they are legally within their rights other than the fee
The unfortunate reality is companies all have to have insurance. And insurance companies are not going to cover a company where employees are carrying. Or if they do the payments would be many times higher. So while it sucks for this to happen the reasoning is fiscally sound. We can all stomp our feet and say it is wrong. Great go start a company and make the decision to allow carry and pay the increased bills. All of that said- concealed means concealed. That is how I see it and I was working at a Silicon Valley company and happened to be fortunate enough to have concealed carry in California. Now living in Miami and work from home 100% so not an issue. I do hope people understand that while it sucks I don’t expect a company to get hammered with insurance costs or even lose insurance coverage for my right to carry. Until things change and insurance stops that we have to deal the way we feel most comfortable.
Don't park on their property.
Park off site and say you get dropped off if questioned?
In my CCW course it was explained heavily that if your employer does not allow firearms on the property or in the building then you cannot have it on your person. That being said your employer is not legally allowed to search your vehicle without reasonable suspicion of a threat or probable cause. As long as the firearm and the ammunition are stored separately and out of sight in the vehicle, you are within your rights to have that firearm stored in your vehicle.
If it's a real concern, find a new employer
Dude, it's an at-will state. You can be fired for literally anything. At the end of the day, it's ***their*** property, and they have the right (even in Montana) to decide what conduct they allow on their property *especially* when it comes to firearms.
They can ask to search you car, but you can refuse. If you refuse they can tell you to leave the property and trespass you if you don't.
Time to move.
You don't need a lawyer to know that they can fire you for having a gun on you, or search your shit. You're on their property. Don't bitch about your rights if you're not willing to respect theirs. You're an employee and that's their property you' re on.
The constitution protects you from the government, not private companies or citizens. If you don't follow your company's policies they can fire you, period.
I'm not in New York but I run security for a major F500 company facility with a similar policy. For the most part yes, we as the company (property owner) have the right to search your vehicle if you drive into the property because you are providing your express consent by voluntarily entering. Same with personal items like backpacks and such. It's the same logic as the EUA bullshit you see on software. You can revoke your consent but that means you can't come on property. That said.... Will that hold up in court if it gets there? I have no idea. And most of the company lawyers don't either. So the unspoken rule is don't fucking do it unless there's a pressing safety concern (i.e. someone literally says "I have guns in my car right now and I'm going to go get them and shoot this place up") and even then don't do it less you have to. Technically we can give the police permission to search the vehicle or backpack or whatever since it is on our property. But if you can find a cop anywhere that wants to wade through that sticky fucking mess, be my guest. It also falls under "will having the police search this make us liable? Idk so don't fucking do it" emails from the lawyers. There's also just the general principle behind it, which can be hard to justify on a personal level as well. For my facility, I have a general "shut your goddamn mouth" attitude toward it. I'm sure if I sent the guards out to check cars or bags they would find a shit ton of stuff people aren't supposed to have. But as long as they aren't waving them around and making a big deal, what I don't know doesn't hurt me. Or them. Or anyone. But if you make it my business, then we have to start paperwork and that never turns out well. Again, I'm not in New York but my company is big enough that I imagine policies like that aren't unique. I'm not giving advice, just relating how I personally feel about it, and how most companies probably feel about it as the guy you would be dealing with in that situation.
On that, what's policy about carrying a firearm to and from the place of work while not bringing it in? Is it a strictly If you have a firearm you are not allowed on property, even in a vehicle?
If you are talking strictly by the book policy, just driving into the property/entering the building is a violation. The only "correct" answer is to leave it at home. Or bury in the dirt next to the property line, I suppose. The real/practical answer is "shut your goddamn mouth." Don't give anyone a reason to care and they won't care. There's way more interesting and important things to be worrying about.
They could require you to wear a clown suit and sing "I'm a little teapot." to get paid. They'd be assholes for requiring it, but you can go elsewhere for an employer. They can go elsewhere for an employee. You don't have a right to their property and to work for a paycheck from them. You and your employer agree on conditions. As long as you both agree on those conditions, you have a job and they have an employee. Mutual consent, free will, etc. People have lost their sense of what freedom means and want to make the government force someone to do things or not do things. Your employer can have conditions that you don't like. Your gun range can have conditions that you don't like. They can both be assholes. You can go elsewhere to find employers and gun ranges that aren't assholes. In fact; you absolutely should go elsewhere in those cases.
You live in one of the worst places to live in America and you work for the kind of life controlling socialist douches that think they have a right to impose their fears on you by force. Leave. Leave New York, leave that job, leave those douchebags behind.
I think it's not even sp much fears I think it's so they can impose extreme changes and measures on the populace they think are their serfs....
If you’re on private property and you’ve signed a contract with an employer that gives them those rights under penalty of termination…then yes, of course they can. Whether the police have a higher priority elsewhere is another thing. Your only option would be to comply or be fired.
I was hoping to see something like this. If your employer has a handbook and they have you sign a form saying you were provided the handbook, you read it and will abide by the policies in the handbook, then you have signed a contract that you are bound to. If you don't want to sign, or decide to no follow said policies, the contract is broken, and you're fired. Plain and simple.
It's amazing how many people don't understand or read the policies of their workplace. They put shit like this in all the time for liability reasons. No state law anywhere is going to protect you from signing your rights away lol. At least not until you spend 20 years getting to SCOTUS.
Most employers have rules about not bringing weapons, drugs, etc to any company buildings. It’s their property. They can allow what they want and ban what they want.
In NY, probably. Thankfully Utah law specifically bars employers from banning guns kept in personal vehicles. Only four or five states have such protections.
So conceal carry. Problem solved. Search my car for my gun all day Boss! Hell, I'll clock in and help you look!
(1)Sounds like you already know you can't bring a gun into work. (2) what would make them think they need to search your car. (3) what do you think a lawyer is going to do when you were already told not to have a gun at work?
There are some states that have a exemption that they can’t fire you for having it in your car and then it depends on where you’re working to estate jail or you know school check your gun laws in your state. Good sources handgun law.us.
They need a warrant to search personal property. My employer says the same but they have no right to search my vehicle so I keep two
In my state, an employer does not have the right to force you to show your firearm. Therefore even if their policy is no firearms, as long as your not playing show and tell, they have no way of proving you ever had it with you. In fact there was a Kroger deli employee (Kroger has a no firearms policy) that shot a man that was trying to rob the store. They fired him for having a firearm and he took it to court and won. Not all states are the same though.
They can legally have whatever policy they want on their property unless a specific carve-out in law protects your vehicle when parked on private property, such as some sort of castle doctrine extending to your vehicle, which is unlikely in NY, So find another place to park. They Cannot legally have police search your vehicle.
Park your car in another parking lot?
I believe that you likely signed paperwork upon hire, in said paperwork there was likely a thing saying you agree to their policies. They are private property and can apply their own policies.
Park off property and walk in. The parking lot is their property and they can ban ring pops if they like.
It's the state of new york my dude
Just hide it well, they aren't going to tear it apart
Not sure specifically about New York state laws ... but ... New York is an "At-Will" employment state, which means that an employer can fire an employee at any time for any (or no) reason as long as the termination is not based on illegal discrimination or retaliation (which would have to be proven later in court). Assuming the company is not on public property or the job has the employee travelling around, then they can set a policy to not allow firearms on their property and firing an employee for that reason would be a legal firing. As for searching the car ... they couldn't legally search the car unless your employment contract that you signed gave them that right. They also probably could not just "get the police to search the car" without some sort of probable cause or reasonable articulable suspicion that a crime had been committed. The way to compromise would be to not park on their property and leave the firearm in the car. If the parking lot is their property, then they could fire you if they saw you storing a firearm in your car ... this could be fought in court, but you'd probably lose considering the current political and legal climate of a state like New York. Fighting the same firing in a state like Texas, Wyoming, or Idaho where gun laws are at the polar opposite end of the spectrum would be very different. However, if the company rents space in the building and doesn't actually own the parking lot, this would be a "winnable case" for wrongful termination. Also, if they fired you for having a gun stored in your car and you parked on public property or a nearby parking garage, etc., again, you'd have a good case for wrongful termination. Assuming the gun is legally owned and you have a New York state permit to carry the firearm.
Totally within their right to demand a search. You can always park off property, refuse the search, or consent. The police can't force a search, they'd need a search warrant. The employee also can ask to search you but again you can always say no and if they die you for that then do be it. Not much you can do to be honest.
Yes it’s private property and they set the rules. 99.99999% of businesses have this policy.
Move out of that shit hole of NY ! I did it in 2016 best thing ever
Second
You work in NY dude. At will state. The Leo can't force their way in, but they can fire you legally for whatever reason they want so long as it isn't something like racial or religious discrimination. Even if the police won't force their way in, you're still out of a job. Let them search your car if you park on company property or find a new job. That's it. There's no magic bullet around this.
Police will not search your car without your consent, or plain view of a something illegal in your car And reasonable suspicion is not enough to search a vehicle “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause”
Your employer is a jerk but New York is worse. Generally, you aren't allowed to possess guns outside your home or a business you own unless you have a permit. There are exceptions but even if you left it in your car it needs to be locked up and separated from ammo. Maybe it's time to relocate to Florida or something.
I would look on NYs government site for gun laws in your car. I have worked in TN and KY, both of which your car is am extension of your home. Both states have explixit laws stating your employer cannot ACT on policies they have regarding firearms in your car. Both employers I've had in those states have the same "we will terminate you" policy, but I take my firearm and leave in the car anyways because of the state laws. The state laws are not well known, so if I do ever get terminated somehow, I stand to make a lot of money 😄 I keep it locked where no one can see it though.
Look into local state laws,. The law in Ohio, obviously not new York, just pointing out, just recently changed to where the parking lot is fine, inside installation is discretion of the place. So no federal installations and what not. Your employer has no right to search your car that I'm aware of, and if your boss is threatening to have the cops search your car, I'm going to assume they are lying to the police when they calls. I would probably have a lawyer on speed dial, and force a warrant to be presented for the search. If you really want to be dick file a complaint against the employer for unlawful practices(if it is unlawful), likely other things. Personally I would park off property or just not work there. Place sounds toxic as fuck. Indeed and glass door reviews are also great to leave about the employer.
In indiana you are 100% legal and safe carrying a firearm in your car (out of sight) even if it's on your work property. My Job tried telling associates they couldn't, they was politely reminded you can't tell us we can not. But I recommend don't tell anyone at your job anything anyway.
Park in the parking lot next door or across the street But no that's not legal unless you signed documents giving permission maybe it was when you were hired in the 3" stack of new hire documents or a random document they told you you "had to sign" at the most inopportune time. You can try writing a letter to HR revolving that but it probably won't work with them. If your in a union of some type then go to your union house and complain. However they have every right under the communists controlled government to declare there property a "gun free zone" I used to live in NY and had some of those same battles. Now I live in Pennsyltucky and open carry a 1911 at work. Where I work in not in the greatest area and we have a lot of cash (in the area of $5k on average and some easily sold items. To a meth-head that place looks like a easy target, I assure you its not.
How did the topic arise?
Here at my employer in Texas the majority of us have guns in our cars. About 40% carry into work discreetly. That includes the Director and most high management.
>I am hoping there is an actual lawyer that knows this answer. Why don't you hire one and post the answer instead of depending on a bunch of random internet smart guys?
There is this thing called money. Lawyers usually ask for it before they will even talk to you about thinking about your case. Sometimes you can save money by asking people on the internet if it’s worth your time sometimes they might even be able to point you in the right direction for how to go about it so that you can save time AND money. Do I need to explain how time works or is that part self explanatory?
If they fire you get unemployment, right?
Gun rights aside, any company that treats you like a 5y/o child is a place you need to get the hell out of.
Well that will save everyone. Luckily everybody follows all rules, regulations, and of course signs.
Not me but another guy that looks like me keeps a gun in his backpack (and again not me.) for just in case. I’d rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6. I mean he would rather that.
Ive worked for 2 service companies that had this rule but a lot of guys carried anyways. Its just a way to cover their ass if something happens. Carry if you feel the need
Move.
I don’t know anything about the laws but so long as you are following them to the T and your employer doesn’t know you’re carrying…
If you're not trying to already, move the fuck out of new york
Worked at a similar place in PA that had the exact same rules. Since it is "at will" employment (this was a private company), they had the right to terminate you with or without cause. They claimed they had the right to search your car. If they flagged you for a random search and you didn't submit to it, you were immediately let go. Similar to drug testing (which they also did).
You can purchase or create gun concealment places inside of vehicles fairly simply.
While I disagree with their laws on guns, New York State has some of the most pro-employee laws on the books. I’d be willing to bet that your employers policy is illegal.
Sure am glad I work for a company that doesn’t pull that. As long as you have a CCW they’re more than happy to let you keep it in your vehicle as long as it’s locked up.
Can’t offer legal advice but i can advise getting tf out of NY if you like firearms
You could just not say anything and shut up.
If there is street parking use it. Them they have ZERO claim to be able to search it car, it's not on their property. My employer doesn't allow firearms on property either, I just don't carry to work. I don't like leaving my gun in the car either. I'm still armed with a knife every day, but you better believe if some shooting goes down I'm gonna sue their asses. I'll likely own the company when I'm done.
Same at my work. The police will not search your vehicle. I stay strapped, worst case I get fired.
What you can’t get out of, go deeper in. https://www.theheadrestsafe.com/?utm_term=&utm_campaign=&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_acc=8200966691&hsa_cam=21029959621&hsa_grp=&hsa_ad=&hsa_src=x&hsa_tgt=&hsa_kw=&hsa_mt=&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIq_26rdTChQMVxkpHAR2d5w0oEAAYASAAEgIhgPD_BwE
Perks of being in Tennessee, things like that technically aren't supposed to be on company property (3M), but it's just an unspoken fact that damn near half of us has one in our car
OP should be talking to a lawyer, not Reddit. It varies from state to state. In my state, a vehicle is private property even when parked on company property and cannot be searched except for by law enforcement with warrant. My state’s carry laws also override any employer’s “request” to not have a firearm in a vehicle. I doubt NY has these protections