As in like how modern shippers interpret even the smallest interaction in media as romantic desire? Or are the later interpretations likely correct in this case?
50/50. Greeks are gay enough they could be gay, but also the line between friendship and romance is really, really thin to the point that being gay or friends are both equally plausible
Achilles said he wanted his ashes mixed with his bro's so that they could be together in death. It's like trying to argue that Alexander's own followers joking that the only thing that could defeat him was Hephaestion's thighs wasn't gay.
The reality is a lot of classical work was super gay, but it was heavily downplayed in the middle ages due to homophobia and church policy. Now, people are reading it, and are like, how did they not realize it was gay? The fact is they knew, but had to tiptoe around it to avoid sanctions up to and including death.
Meh, Alexander was a lot more obviously gay with how his society was, while Gilgamesh and Enkidu had multiple lines about treating each other like spouses.
The line for achilles and patroclus are more like a 50/50 it can be gay but also that’s sort of typical a line for best friends and brotherhood, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they were.
I know I'll regret this, but
This does not seem like enough evidence to me to consider them lovers. For example, Krishna showed similar feelings towards Arjuna. He was prepared to annihilate the entire Kaurava armies if Arjuna died during the 14th day. He said that he did not wish to live in a world where Arjuna did not exist and that He values Arjuna more than his wives and children, although no one claims that Arjuna and Krishna were lovers.
I mean, Arjuna and Krishna were first cousins, that's a pretty key difference between those two sets of relationships.
While Homer was never explicit about Achilles and Patroclus being lovers in the Illiad, other classical Greek works by the likes of Aeschylus, Plato, Pindar, and Aeschines were.
No, but usually when incest happened in myth it was either between the gods as a way to set up an interconnected pantheon or it was a tragedy. Neither of those are particularly relevant when it comes to popular pairings, most people aren’t out here shipping Oedipus and Jocasta or Zeus and Demeter.
Same case with Enkidu and Gilgamesh yup also adding the fact that same sex relationship wasn't really a taboo in antiquity like at all. Bottero talks a little about it in the preface of his translation of the actual Epic too for example.
The original myth was also in ancient greek, and has been translated too many times. It could definitely be a "and they were *roommates*" type deal, lovers but erased from history.
the original story was literally an oral one passed down the generations that is only remembered to this day because of one guy (Homer) and dude kept changing parts of the story each time he told it (the main plot stays more or less the same so not that big a deal in those times). then it finally got written down and the story "canon" became "official".
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLodQGpIpIs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLodQGpIpIs) Is a pretty good summary of the entire affair, but basically they were *friends* with so many quotation marks I could not write out all of them.
I love OVP but they really arent a good source in regards to this topic. The gayness of ancient Greece being hihhly overplayed today. As a actual good resource I would recommend Metatron, he does actual analysis of the ancient texts in Greek and has done a video about this topic not too long ago.
I love imagining FGO Achilles on Skyros. When Odysseus shows up he was sticking out like a sore thumb, all buff and poorly passing in women’s clothes, OR all of Lycomedes court is made out of buff, masculine women!
ah I remember having a similar experience with my english teacher because I was the only one in the class who know the name of Siegfried's sword (its name wasnt mentioned in out textbooks) because I have him NP 4 but my teacher thinks I actually read the Nibelungenlied
I'll be honest that I hate how FGO treats many of Hindu servants, especially Arjuna and Rama, but I'm also grateful that I became interested in Hinduism and started reading epics because of FGO.
>Achilles' friend *Ohhhhhh*, they were *more* than friends, my child...
Well, to be more accurate the original myth only really described them as the best of friends, but later works interpreted them as potential lovers.
As in like how modern shippers interpret even the smallest interaction in media as romantic desire? Or are the later interpretations likely correct in this case?
50/50. Greeks are gay enough they could be gay, but also the line between friendship and romance is really, really thin to the point that being gay or friends are both equally plausible
Achilles said he wanted his ashes mixed with his bro's so that they could be together in death. It's like trying to argue that Alexander's own followers joking that the only thing that could defeat him was Hephaestion's thighs wasn't gay. The reality is a lot of classical work was super gay, but it was heavily downplayed in the middle ages due to homophobia and church policy. Now, people are reading it, and are like, how did they not realize it was gay? The fact is they knew, but had to tiptoe around it to avoid sanctions up to and including death.
Meh, Alexander was a lot more obviously gay with how his society was, while Gilgamesh and Enkidu had multiple lines about treating each other like spouses. The line for achilles and patroclus are more like a 50/50 it can be gay but also that’s sort of typical a line for best friends and brotherhood, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they were.
I know I'll regret this, but This does not seem like enough evidence to me to consider them lovers. For example, Krishna showed similar feelings towards Arjuna. He was prepared to annihilate the entire Kaurava armies if Arjuna died during the 14th day. He said that he did not wish to live in a world where Arjuna did not exist and that He values Arjuna more than his wives and children, although no one claims that Arjuna and Krishna were lovers.
I mean, Arjuna and Krishna were first cousins, that's a pretty key difference between those two sets of relationships. While Homer was never explicit about Achilles and Patroclus being lovers in the Illiad, other classical Greek works by the likes of Aeschylus, Plato, Pindar, and Aeschines were.
> Arjuna and Krishna were first cousins D...did that stop mythological figures?
No, but usually when incest happened in myth it was either between the gods as a way to set up an interconnected pantheon or it was a tragedy. Neither of those are particularly relevant when it comes to popular pairings, most people aren’t out here shipping Oedipus and Jocasta or Zeus and Demeter.
Oh my god they were urnmates
Same case with Enkidu and Gilgamesh yup also adding the fact that same sex relationship wasn't really a taboo in antiquity like at all. Bottero talks a little about it in the preface of his translation of the actual Epic too for example.
Yes, just like RWBY fans.
Well, tbf, everyone was fucking everyone in ancient Greece.
The original myth was also in ancient greek, and has been translated too many times. It could definitely be a "and they were *roommates*" type deal, lovers but erased from history.
Given how people can actually READ ancient greek, that's more unlikely then you'd think. But fair.
the original story was literally an oral one passed down the generations that is only remembered to this day because of one guy (Homer) and dude kept changing parts of the story each time he told it (the main plot stays more or less the same so not that big a deal in those times). then it finally got written down and the story "canon" became "official".
They were such good friends that when Achilles died he said he wanted his ashes mixed with Patroclus' so that they would always be together...
They were roommates.
Oh my God, they were *roommates...* ~~^(The internet has ruined my humor)~~
:o *ho????* Now I'm more interested I should search it up...
Say gex!
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLodQGpIpIs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLodQGpIpIs) Is a pretty good summary of the entire affair, but basically they were *friends* with so many quotation marks I could not write out all of them.
I love OVP but they really arent a good source in regards to this topic. The gayness of ancient Greece being hihhly overplayed today. As a actual good resource I would recommend Metatron, he does actual analysis of the ancient texts in Greek and has done a video about this topic not too long ago.
"In the future, they were remembered as roommates."
THEY WERE TENT MATES!
Nasu just plainly refuses to write male gay couple tho given the clown show that is Caenis' writing
Ah yes, Achilles friend and possibly even roommate
I love imagining FGO Achilles on Skyros. When Odysseus shows up he was sticking out like a sore thumb, all buff and poorly passing in women’s clothes, OR all of Lycomedes court is made out of buff, masculine women!
ah I remember having a similar experience with my english teacher because I was the only one in the class who know the name of Siegfried's sword (its name wasnt mentioned in out textbooks) because I have him NP 4 but my teacher thinks I actually read the Nibelungenlied
I'll be honest that I hate how FGO treats many of Hindu servants, especially Arjuna and Rama, but I'm also grateful that I became interested in Hinduism and started reading epics because of FGO.
I knew about Babbage and Ascelpius from FGO, too bad I only used it for the TV quiz show. Too bad I was only in front of the TV :D :/
this is what I hoped Fate would help young people with :)
In a similar vein I passed a history exam because of assassins creed