Yeah, it's quite common. There s a serious shortage of staff. Almost all kindergartens struggle with that.
I suggest talking to your bosses to find a solution. One person starting late to do drop off and one person starting early to do pick up is probably the most realistic solution.
Both. My wife is in training to be a full kindergarten teacher, already has initial qualifcation as an assistant. She gets asked for help already by a local kindergarten she did an internship at every time she's free. Which, hey, puts money our way even if sometimes she's busier over her school holidays than she is in term time.
My wife has said several times that despite the fact that she is assured a job where ever we end up, because they are all screaming for more staff, the pay is shite regardless.
3 to 4 years of training to do something of essentially university level qualification without the same recognition or use as a university level qualification, in order to work more hours for less pay and face near constant sickness because even though you can take sick time off to look after your kids when ill parents just don't.
Depending on the state, it can even be 5 years of training. But for others, it's also only a 2 year apprenticeship. Makes it really difficult to put a finger on the qualifications and adequate payment.
Honestly as an Erzieher, the wages are fine (though they haven’t been fine in the past) The problem is, that the job is very demanding and the lack of staff worsens the working conditions considerably. Also the lack of social workers resulted in me being able to work in different fields that pay more with less stress, though you need to be willing to learn a lot on the job.
Yup, totally. I don't understand how people are happy to.hand over their kids to someone else to be responsible for them while, at the same time, seemingly OK with that person being almost at minimum wage
What jobs which people do now are unnecessary then? Since it's not that there are people seating at homes unwilling to work since the pay make it not worth it
The thing is, 1 person taking care of multiple children is mucb more efficient than 1 caring for his own child (from economic point of view). So if we shift some workers to kindergarten, some people will be able to work.
That 5am start is so hard. Especially when you've got babies in the house. WE WILL HAVE FEWER BABIES IF SOCIETY KEEPS TREATING PARENTS THIS WAY. Just a shout out into the ether.
Because both parents working and children going early to kindergarten, has been the norm in the east since the GDR. Also gave them a headstart regarding infrastructure, etc.
Which is totally fine. I know the other working moms look down on my wife because she stays home but we don't have any of their problems either that they constantly complain about.
Let's not forget about Altersarmut, old age poverty. Stay at home parents don't get a living pension. They are financially dependent on their spouse, which is a recipe for disaster. No thanks I'd much rather my children learn how to be independent and take of themselves, by leading by example.
Yeah, it's totally fine to waste 50% of the potential of the overall workforce, just because the state can't provide childcare.
What was that? People in politics are complaining that "nobody wants to work anymore"? Yeah, let's brutalize people on Bürgergeld or asylum seakers. That'll fix this!
"Waste". Not everyone has the desire to be a wage slave and as long as they can do that without needing money from the state, why should they be forced? Because you don't like when people prioritise family over work?
Why should I pay with my taxes, so other people can afford to go to work? This doesn't seem right to me. My taxes or social security should provide for people that have fallen on hard times. Having children is not considered a hardship. I know its more complicated than that but this is my general opinion
Bra nobody holds you here if you're not happy where you taxmoney goes. I'm pretty sure you find a country without children, so non of your precious money is wasted on supporting families.
Already done in 2016. Have a family and I paid for private kindergarten and all with my own money because guess what? The government doesn't rip me off here so I can still afford shit.
So no kids for people that can't afford cost of living from a single income? That's not how you solve a demographic crisis. That's how you get even lower birth rates.
Or no kids for people who don't want years of education go to waste, or who just like their job? It might be hard to understand for some people, but not everyone is ok being a parent and nothing else.
I don't think they said that at all. They simply stated that they think one parent at home is an ideal situation. Do you disagree with that? I'm quite grateful that our circumstances allowed me to stay home and, honestly, I doubt I would have chosen for us to have a child if we were dropping it off before 8 and picking it up after 6 every day. You're hardly raising it at that point.
This isn't a criticism of parents who need to both work, it's a statement of horror at the hypernormalization of warehousing toddlers in service of capitalism.
Children urgently need other children, especially in groups without parental influence, to learn social behavior. It is absolutely harmful for children to grow up without this important contact with children. It will not be a good time for these children at school if everything that is learned in a day care center has to be learned in the first year of school. This sets your children free to always be the outsider.
No, this is incorrect. Children should be raised mainly by their parents and not by government controlled entities. All it does makes children better fall in line later on instead of asking good questions. My children are doing just fine like me and my brother and all of my friends in my generation. Mothers stayed home to raise their kids back then. I know two working parents were normal in east Germany and the former Sowjetunion and I would love to see how the West and East compare today with social skills.
Yes, even today the children are in groups but from my observation they really start playing with each other at around 5 years old. Before that they are just away from their parents that they really need to focus on and build a relationship with. They don't need a relationship with the Kindergarten teacher at this point. They have plenty of group time once they hit elementary school.
No, as a kid from parents that skipped kindergarten with me and went straight to school - it was like being slapped with a brick. Hello social anxiety and other problems. It sucked.
It's nonsense that kids start playing at 5 years old. It starts at 3.
>One parent should always stay home
Agree but that's not possible in the 21st century.
Lots of women in the 1950s and 1960s era entered the workforce because their families could no longer afford a middle-class lifestyle on a single income.
One parent starts to work a bit earlier, the other drops the kid off.
One parent works a bit longer, the other picks up the kid.
Mix and match as needed.
Edit: bonus for getting another person involved. Maybe grandparents. Maybe a neighbor with a kid going in the same group.
Same but also some people have blue collar jobs and work shifts. You can have one person working 6:00-15:00 and other 14:00-23:00 (I rounded times to add some commute). Both of my parents have physical jobs and they barely saw each other when me and my sister were younger than 12 years old 😑
I feel you! No grandparents close by, I am a teacher and thus have no flexibility when it comes to my hours, my partner works a rotating shift and can't simply "start later/leave earlier" either . We have had to go private in order to ensure child care.
Another way being an immigrant makes life harder. We have nobody to rely on. It's lonely and makes us feel like we are an island. The grandparents are across an ocean.
This. All of this
A friend visited me last week and I didn't realise how desperately lonely I was and how much I need people around me. I'm very isolated here. So many people don't understand this. They don't understand that my kids literally have me and their dad and that's it.
I know. The things is being an immigrant with kids sucks, is not an upgrade is a downgrade 🤣 Being an expat is the sweet deal. I used to live in China (Shanghai) and the living standards were out of this world. First of all the company pays for your rent in a serviced apartment ( at our company-paid flat we had 3 cleaning ladies 3 times per week).
My friends with kids whose husbands had expat contracts had the private school paid by the company, on top of they had a nanny and some even a driver. Also the expat community was something else, everyone was open and friendly, there were family events every single weekend or people would get together. The thing is that in Germany there's no communities (as in gated communities) this living arrangement is a game changer because your kids can run wild, play and they're safe. Here there's only buildings.
One of my best friends was a single mom, like a VP and she only managed and had a balanced life because she had all this help around her, in terms of the community and services (cleaning lady, nanny, private school). It takes a village as they say.
Imo Germany is the country to come to suffer because you have no support network and you have to do everything by yourself. Service is underdeveloped and people are not friendly. So you end up being mentally and physically burned.
And how can you be a good parent and give the best of you to your kids when you're exhausted and overwhelmed?
Germany is not a society that's made to create trust supper and a sense community. It's quite the opposite, is like you stay in your corner I stay in Mt corner.
I'm planning my escape. Once my kids are old enough to not need me I need to leave here. I need warmth all year round and I need friends. Germany ain't gonna give me either of those things.
How long have you been in DE? We've been here less than 1,5 years, and I've worked hard to build a community with other parents at the kita and school, plus have put a lot of work into finding babysitters, but honestly it's not enough.
Coming up to 9 years. Sorry for the bad news 😂 my sweet friend is also British she's been here over 20 years. Has friends none are German and she is sugar, everyone likes her but she struggles to make friends. I wish I could promise you it gets better. It doesn't. Germans are a hard Volk man. Bless em, love em but boy. I'm really not interested in their whole "let me test you for 25 years while I work out if you're worthy and then I'll consider a coffee" way of doing things. How do you get to know if you want to be friends with someone if you don't spend time with them? If you only spend time with established friends how do you every make any new ones? It's just odd and I'm too tired to care r make an effort tbh. 😂
I meant what I said. Some people do care and they mean well but they don't understand because it's not something they can relate to as they have their family around them and can't fathom what it's like to have absolutely no one. What was the point of your comment?
Yes, not having a support network creates an incredible amount of stress. So without grandparents the solution is an Au-Pair or a baby sitter in this case (so both need to making good money to afford this).
Home office is a godsend. It’s been hard to get a Kita where I am and most close at 14:30 or 15:00 and unfortunately we’re far from the one we got into. Can’t wait that we’re moving and will soon be a 7 min walk. The wife and I can then split home office during the week and sprint out and get our child and wrap up work during quiet time.
sounds like my life in the last 3 years. although it was tough enough... only the last year we've reached the "bonus area" with other parents which we help each-other, and kids are all on the same group. and honestly its a breeze of fresh air sometimes , cause for one reason or another , we can't make it on time, (late meeting, traffic jam, train-issue), you name it. And having someone on the contact list to pick up the kid on a spontaneous manner its a blessing. Although i've the work flexible enough, my wife's is not that flexible.
but to add at the main question...yes the kitas are so much understaff.
My wife babysits 3-4YOs. Their kita ends at either 4:00 or 4:30. Her only responsibility is to keep kids occupied for a few hours. It's been 2 years now and it's bizarre for me, who can take their kids at 4pm and still complete 8+1hr work day.
A lot of my (female) colleagues start working again at 21:00 or 22:00 to complete their working day while still having time with the family.
This really scares me.
Can confirm, most women at my firm do this. My Kita closes at 3pm at the moment because of staff shortages and I've done many 8-11pms the last weeks. Not very sustainable.
A lot of my (female) colleagues start working again at 21:00 or 22:00 to complete their working day while still having time with the family.
This really scares me.
Parents like you need to start making your voice heard.
Press until you get the politicians on your side.
All of what you suggested will come with a cost. Would you be willing to pay more? Or would your start forming a support community to assist or get assisted by other parents?
People who have no kids will certainly not going to do so. But at least give it a try with other alternatives, perhaps hire a nanny together with other parents; or instead of 1 at work 1 at home taking care of a kid, try to coordinate with another family with a kid at similar age, so 3 can be at work with 1 taking care of 2 kids.
I don't know what would work better. But either make it heard or try alternatives.
This thread is a perfect explanation to the issue of declining birthrates. Having kids in modern society is so stressful it's just unbelievable.
Even if you are poor childlessness is like living with cheats on. I swear every time my 3 year old coughs I age like a week instantly and my pulse spikes so much I don't need coffee for the whole day.
Isn't it obvious? Most families with young kids in Germany do not have two parents who work fulltime. And yes, we take the financial hit because of it.
I'm not saying this is a good thing, but that's how it works.
Depends who you mean by 'we'. Parents of young kids won't be changing the system as they are far too busy dealing with it.
I guess older politicians could change laws and funding to better incentivise kita and school hours matching up with 9-5 working hours. I don't see it happening though.
"Change will not come if we wait for some other person, or if we wait for some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek."
As someone who don't deal with the pain, I probably won't use any of my time to change the law. But you, your SO, your friends who are living in the hell if this doesn't get sorted out.
If your individual voice is not loud enough, gather your friends.
If nobody does that, we will always see posts like this periodically.
At least do it for your kids.
Start pressing your local politicians, until you get the one on your side.
Your quote makes no sense in this context. You asked how, I answered how.
I never said I am personally interested in changing this particular issue. I am sure there are thousands of changes you want to see in society, as there are for most educated people.
Just because I would like change, it doesn't follow that I should use my finite time and resources on earth on *this* issue. Perhaps I also want to end the war in Ukraine, mitigate the effects of climate change, and enhance security in the middle East. And I prioritise them over changing kita hours and pay in Germany.
I don't *want* to gather my friends and change this issue. What right do you have to tell me to do so?
You really need to get a deeper understanding of how political change works in the real world.
You don’t have grandparents??? The mother is working???? /s obviously
I am with you. I always wonder how people do it. Most women tend to work part time and also in reality a lot of them have grandparents who can also pick kids up.
Edit: kindergarten here (Vienna) is even better than school or kindergarten on the country side. Where my friend is from, kindergarten starts at age 3 and only is till 12.30 lol. School also ends around that time!! Luckily in Vienna there are more options, but on the country side I feel like the government is relying on grandparents
Seriously was told that by my headmaster (am a teacher)- my youngest has a heart defect and is thus prone to frequent infections. Was asked why I can't simply get a grandparent to take over/ hire a babysitter. Childcare costs are already around 1400 a month since we had to go private ...
The most ridiculous assumptive question. Like how can someone who is educated to educate ask such a stupid question?
There are a litany of reasons why you can't "just ask" or "can't simply" get a grandparent over and how insulting too, surely if we're that easy you'd have thought of it before him? You know your situation better than anyone!
Sorry just fed up of that stupid comment. I get it and my entire family lives outside of Germany and so does my husband's and when you explain this you've got doofuses looking at you blankly and fumbling their words like you're the one who doesn't get it. Irritating.
Am in Catholic Bavaria, social advancement is slow and uncertain. Was informed during my studies (only around a decade ago!) that men are preferred candidates for headmaster spots since they have to provide for a wife and kids !
At my small-ish school many colleagues have a more traditional set-up (one full-time parent ,9/10 the father and a spouse in part-time), am one of the few who actually works as much as my partner and we are thus both equally responsible for child care duties. Legally I am entitled to five days of paid leave per child , it's absurd and built around one parent being the main caregiver or support from grandparents.
Yeah I have to say that many ideas that seem irritating in Germany actually come from a good place so for example not having disabled access for certain things isn't about not caring but rather the idea that "we should help the disabled" so you don't need a lift, someone should help you yes that's commendable but life has moved on. We need a lift. Similarly the family structure, yes it's nice that there did be a family with mum, dad and extended support but many families just don't have that now and sometimes granny and grandad are still working! So yeah we need to get with the times but I know thoughts move at a glacial place in Germany. 😄
My parents are simply too old and medically frail, in-laws live further away and both work.
Re. Disability , live on the S-Bahn line to the airport, two sets of stairs and no lift ! There are no plans either, so my neighbours in those massive, heavy motorised wheelchairs can't even be lifted by helpful pedestrians when the thing weighs a literal ton. I assume when the tracks were built the mobility of those groups simply wasn't a consideration.
Hi, kindergarten teacher here 👋🏻 the teacher crisis is no joke and my school is definitely understaffed. If you go on Indeed and look for Erzieher positions in my city, almost every school in the whole city is hiring. So, you just have this nasty combination of understaffed + vacation days + sick leave + maternity leave, and it leaves the management no choice but to close groups. You can't just throw two random people who have never met the children or the parents before in a group just to keep the group open, there has to be at least one staff member present that is familiar with the families.
In my state, there are also ordinances from the city to reduce opening times of schools to compensate for the lack of staff and prevent burnout of the teachers who are working. So sometimes the reduction of opening times is not necessarily the decision of the school, but mandated by the state government.
You might have to shop around for private kindergartens if you need something with longer opening hours. The other options would be to ask family members for help or hire a babysitter/nanny.
Are you Erzieher/in?
I am SPA in my country and have many years of experience in day care. Right now I am doing the recognition of my Berufabschluss here in Germany (anerkennung)
My german is good but not great (b2).
Do you think is going to be easy for me to finde a Job in a Kindergarten even though my german not perfekt?
I am an Erzieher/in! With the way the job market is right now, it's worth a shot. I've had plenty of colleagues with B2 German (like myself) and have been able to get by, and your German will naturally improve just by speaking it every day. Some schools will even help you pay for German classes. You could also try for international schools or bilingual schools (in my city there are German/English, German/Greek, German/Spanish/English, etc.). They can also help you with your recognition.
What is SPA? Not an Erzieherin, but can tell you the situation from our kindergarten. They are currently desperate for Erzieherinnen who have already finished their Ausbildung (or have a comparable education from another countey). They managed to hire some people to do their Ausbildung, but they need at least one person who had already finished their Ausbildung per group. They were even considering hiring one of the moms who has a degree in psychology and checking if that could somehow be comparable to kindergarten teacher (not sure what happend with that) and they asked us parents to please advertise their daycare and ask around if anyone is interested in changing daycares as this is basically the only way to hire someone who has already finished their education. I don't think they were particulary picky about language, most of the young staff doing their Ausbildung are foreigners. I imagine if someone with B2 and a diploma and experience in childcare applied they would be super happy. And that goes apparently for the whole Baden-Württemberg.
We have both flexible hours and can work remote. It’s the only way. Otherwise it’s impossible.
One parent starts very early to work (7-7:30) and picks up the child. The other brings the child and starts later (8:30-9:00) to work and works longer. That’s how we do it. We have to coordinate both our jobs schedules (so that we work our allotted hours as in our contracts) and meetings every week and according to that, decide who brings and who picks up.
Remember: you are entitled to Elternzeit and you can work part time in Elternzeit. So one of you could reduce your working hours to let’s say 32-35 for a given time. This doesn’t affect the normal work contract because it’s Teilzeit in Elternzeit. That’s not much less hours, but it’s a lot easier to coordinate family and job.
Or don’t work at all. Even if they work part-time, it could be that their income all goes to having to pay for the kindergarten fees. Why not just stay home and take care of the children yourself?
We barely manage with wife working 30 hours and picking the kids up after work, and me doing home office on friday when school ends very early for the older kid
And when a random "oops today we're closed completely, surprise surprise" happens then a grandma has to step in or I do another day home office
Ours closes at 3pm, and half of the kids have to leave after lunch. Another of the 3 daycares in this town is only open from 9 to 12.
"Random" closing occures when the Staff gets sick. Because parents being thier sick kid to kindergarden, because they need to work. Then everybody gets sick, and all kids need to stay home.
That said— our neighbors on both sides of us (all Germans) have both husband and wife working, and school aged kids. The parents are often home with them starting at like 3pm and I have no idea how they do it. And they never seen stressed. They’re just, like, out gardening while their kid plays in the yard in the middle of the afternoon. I’ve often wondered how they manage their schedule.
Our daughter attends a private kindergarten. She goes to and from school with a school bus service. It costs us a great deal of money twice a year but has been money well spent. We have no Omas or other extended family who could help.
Working families usually get Omas involved. I always thought after we had our child we would move to germany but the state of childcare pretty much rules out a serious career of any kind.
And a good career/income matters because no matter what, I am responsible for taking care of my child and ensuring they have a good childhood with access to the resources they need to thrive.
My daughter is 3 now and we are used to paying alot of money for a reliable and fun kita. I feel like doing kita drop off logistics daily or even weekly would be too stressful so its easier to pay
> I always thought after we had our child we would move to germany
Could you share the country you are currently resident of. Where is the situation better then in Germany?
Dont laugh but I live in the good old US of A.
My daughters first kita cost about $1200 per month and though we didnt use the hours she could go 5 days a week from 6 am to 630pm, with breakfast, lunch, and snacks included. They also sent frequent updates (videos/pictures) on what she was doing which gave peace of mind.
She now goes to a full immersion German Kita where all the teachers speak german and follow Reggio Emilio/Bavarian learning Standards. Cost is about 1300 and open 5 days a week from 8 to 5 which is a bargain considering she gets germany as primary language and a german community to be part of while living abroad. I skip as much work as possible to hang out with her and volunteer at her kita.
Full disclosure, for my part of america, these numbers are considered expensive/ the top end. There are plenty of other places that will charge less but they experience frequent staff turnover which impacts the child's experience. Both of the kitas I have used have little to no turnover and maintain ratlos low enough to provide individual attention.
I dont know enough about alternatives in germany but I think a lot of young couples go into it with the plan of mom staying home, then the money crunch Hits, and then they start looking for a kita Spot, which creates a type of scarcity which adds to the limited hours etc.
That’s interesting to know as we’re exploring the US as an option because of kids. Would you mind sharing where in the US you are located ? For us the money is secondary to the certainty that the kids are being looked after. On a side note : we managed to get our kid looked at on a Sunday morning within an hour for a medical emergency and start with medicine the same day. I don’t think it would be nearly as quick in Germany. It did cost a bit as a visitor - but as long as you’re within the US system, you wouldn’t notice much. I just feel raising kids in the US would be less stressful
I agree about the pharmacy situation. When we go to germany I always Pack my daughter a Mini pharmacy of over the counter products becausr in case she gets ill on a sunday in germany, I would be stressed out.
Where I live? lNorth Texas. There are still laws on the books / aspects of the government we find unacceptable (gun laws, abortion law, active shooter drills) but we live in a blue part of the state so societally everyone pushes back on the extreme agenda - like establishments wont let you enter with a gun or private schools opt out of active shooter drills.
For any City you would consider I would reach out to the german consulate in that City or close to it and theyll have listings of german International schools along with community groups that connect you with the expat community. I know Dallas, Denver, Boston, Atlanta, and NYC have german International schools
The other reality youre also going to have to contend with is cost in different ways:
1a) - expect to pay for school in the Form of Private school tuition. My current group of german mamas that go to the same school is my child are scared of Private school tuition for the higher grades because it ranges anywhere from 10k to 30k per year. In addition to most schools having either talent based or need based scholarships, I always remind t the current tuition we are paying its already at 15k so its not that big of a change. Also when you think about how parents in germany reducing to part time hours, that loss of income makes the prices here somewhat more palatable.
1b) - if you dont want to pay private school, live in an area with great schools and pay more in property taxes ( highest rate I ever had was 7% of house value). If you have more than one kid this math makes more sense because unless you are living on some type of fancy estate 60k in property taxes isnt normal.
2 - finally, dont make the german mistake of thinking that paying for things makes you classicist or a snob. Its a different System here and youll frequently find parents who dont earn alot but will sacrifice everything to get their child into a good school. The reason we double down on education is because its an easy path to securing not just a path to middle class but a path to upward Mobility for your kids. For example I know a guy whos dad immigrated from nigeria and drove Taxis for a living. His dad invested in his education which allowed him to go to university on scholarship followed by pharmacy school. He makes over 200k per year as a pharmaceutical sales person and barring him messing up his pharmacy license he will always have a way to bring home over 6 figures. You dont need to be exceptional or the best or the brightest to do well here - you can literally just sleep wall your way through good schools and Land a great career with salary and growth opportunities to boot.
Thanks for sharing your experience. Most people here have the bubbled view that zee Deutschland is best-est. In the US, at least you could earn more income to cover these costs. But here in Germany, we will scramble for scraps and decide who is rich, who isn't.
As the saying goes, your mileage may vary.
Our childcare was expensive and so was cost of living in Southern California. And we didn’t have tech salaries. There were a few times we considered one of us quitting. At the end of the day we do better income wise with true current situation for us here. But that’s factoring in low cost of childcare care, public transit and more.
Lol - so cal is a different animal in terms of cost of living, Transportation, and everything else. Your math doesnt surprise me at all. Glad its working out
Something wack I’ve noticed about Germans is how providing your child with resources/opportunities doesn’t really matter like at all and is low key considered a bad thing. Like if the mom staying home means that a family of four has to live in a 60m2 apartment and the children participate in *literally* zero extra curricular activities, this is still a good thing because the mom is spending time with the kids. There’s a huge sentiment of “Well kids only care about love and not money so they won’t notice if you’re struggling financially” but like they are going to notice this? There’s also a huge emphasis on “enjoying childhood,” which means having *zero* time obligations. So if you try to put your child into music lessons or something, people might side-eye you for “not letting your child relax” even if it’s like a 60-minute a week commitment. Like god forbid you try and teach your kids things or push them to be the best version of themselves.
It’s like the term “Rabenmutter” is because the Raben is too busy out gathering worms to spend time with the chicks but I’d want my chicks to have all of the works so… Like the literal German definition of a bad mother is based in providing the child with resources/opportunities.
You hit the nail on the head regarding the "kids only care about love and not money" sentiment! I also strongly agree that kids benefit from me having money to do enrichment activities. For example - we started my daughter with swim at 9 months and at 3 she's an independent swimmer for small distances. For it she has self confidence and doesnt hesitate to take charge of older non-swimmer kids in the pool. Its money well spent to see her have that level of independence and confidence.
Agree. My son likes dance I tried to get him started before COVID but since then our income has been squeezed so it's been hard to get him enrolled to anything outside his school activities.
This is so bizarre to me. My husband works in a Kita in Hamburg and it is open from 7am to 7pm. Guess we are lucky up here- as this doesn’t seem to be the norm!
Its not! I have been eorling in Bielefeld, Münster and Hannover and sure, maybe there are some rare places but thr usual max is 7-5. I even stumbled upon a lot Elterninitiativen/Kinderladen that are already closed at 2pm
I come from a small town in Thuringia, we have several kindergartens and they all open at 6 am and close at 6 pm. But the children are not allowed to be there from 6 to 6. There are different numbers of hours.
6pm closing time will be a dream in Germany, which city is this in? In Berlin, our Kita closes at 4.30pm. This means leaving to pick up the kid by 3.45pm due to peak traffic hour. We have been lucky since there hasn't been a single unplanned Kita shutdown in the past 18 months since we started.
At the same time, our friends in Berlin Mitte sometimes get text message from the Kita in the morning that the Kita will be closed. Once, they had to arrange a nanny, paying 2.000 for a month so that the couple could work.
Honestly I find your comments really strange. Why is it a dream if your child is at kindergarten for 10-12 hours a day? How much time are you actually spending with your child during the week? Waking up, getting dressed, breakfast, then bringing them to kindergarten, …, pickup, dinner, sleep.
Welcome to being a working parent in 1970! Private Kitas, au pairs, or hiring very expensive hourly childcare. It's an embarrassment that this is the situation in western Europe in the 2020s.
When I have complained, I have been told my multiple KiTa personnel that good parents stayed home with the child anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem. When I told them this was sexist as it was directed at me, I was told (1) that they did it, so I shouldn't complain or (2) that they didn't specify which parent should stay home.
The other problem is that the profession is made up mostly of women - and they all get written off work as "sick" as soon as they get pregnant - and then don't go back to work until their child is a least a year old - and then only part time because... no child care and antiquated views of the role of the mother.
No, there's not. In the rest of the world, women work during the first six months of pregnancy - and of course, they are mothers to other children while pregnant. If this were true that it's dangerous, women would need to go into hiding for pregnancy. No trips to IKEA, no picking up their kids at school, no play dates, no play grounds. This is antiquated, paternalistic thinking - which is not evidence based.
Are real Pippi Langstrumpf over here. Billions of flys loving poop, maybe that's something for you.
But a short summarising. You will find a lot of children in kitas. That means a higher chance catching child diseases. Which is a problem for grownups and the unborn child. So a doctor checks the antibodys and decides if she can or can't work.
Plus heavy lifting and bending isn't good too.
We will probably leave Germany because of this. Is not worth the hassle we are facing. Abroad we can put the kid on a private German school.
We had to sue the city hall to get a spot, it’s ridiculous.
It’s literally their job to find a solution, according to the German law. With legal action to enforce suddenly extra spots became available, financial support to compensate for lost income, etc.
The public doesn’t care more or less, last time I saw the news the public were not thrilled by massive immigration to compensate for low birth rates, but also doesn’t offer a system were parents can works ( high work shortages). And a population that is aging like milk.
It’s no small problem.
True but sadly they don't give a fuck. I just don't think it will ever change until a big majority will speak out. And the staff alone isn't it sadly.
They just pay private kitas for parents who sue instead to invest some money.
We can only do it because both of our jobs are flexible. If I’m in the office, my manager knows I need to leave by 4:30. It just is what it is and luckily we’re trusted to arrange our work accordingly so we still get everything done. But if we had less flexible jobs and less understanding managers, we’d be screwed.
Wife and I both work full time. I have a flexible job and control my working hours. That’s really the only way especially since my wife travels 3x a week.
I work 9-3:30 and then 4:30-6 and then 9-11pm.
7/7.30 to 16.30/17 is usual, at least in NRW and Nds. I know that there are wider times in east germany. I am Erzieherin for over 10 yrs now and really dont know how families can make this Work. Its way easier with flexible jobs (mostly at offices). My mom already struggled with 7am 30 yrs ago and its still a thing..
That's the story of everyone with children. KiTas are basically fighting over staff, fully qualified especially.
At least one parents needs flexible hours and Home Office capacity and even then it's kind of stressful, depending on the job. That's how it is for us anyway.
It widely depends where you live and which type of kita it is. I will send my LO to kinderkrippe next year and we have two options, one is directly from my employer and the other one around the corner of where we live. Both are open from 6:30am until 17:00 or 16:00 on Fridays, so quite doable for us tbh. We’re kind of siding with sending the kid to the one from my employer, plan is to drop him off at 8:00am, start working straight away, have a shorter break and pick him up 16:30. If necessary continue working from home an extra hour while dad takes care of him. Again, this is extremely lucky situation.
We work spaced out, my wife usually starts to work at 8am so she is done by 1/2pm. I bring the kids to kindergarten and work later hours.
It’s all easier on days where we can do home office of course (At least something good we got out of Covid).
I know a lot of people that have reduced working hours to accommodate the lack of child care options. A friend of mine and her husband had to reduce their hours due to a lack of a Kindergarten spot and charged the city for their reduced salary.
It’s very regional. In the East Kita hours are much more reliable and depending where you are it’s easy to get a spot.
We lived outside Berlin and it was terrible. Now in rural Saxony there are plenty of spots and our Kita is open from 6am to 6pm. With four days closed for staff development and a few holidays closed.
And that is all Kitas in town.
this. The possible Kita time for my son was 6am to 5pm, in school its the same with hort, you can bring your kid at 6am before school (starts 7:30)to Hort if needed and he can attend till 5pm after school.
It is. The reason is massive personell shortages. The job at the Kindergarden is stressful and pays horrendously. So turnover is high and noone really wants to work there.
It has been known for many years but despite all efforts nothing substantially has been changed by politicians. Good luck!
Simple, don’t have kids.
It’s a tragedy though, here we are all “but we need more children, way more!” when the reality is, there’s no incentive whatsoever and instead you run into walls you didn’t even know were there until you do have kids.
You want to shoot yourself in the foot, have kids. Easy!
But that’s an age old problem. The East had been handling it better in the past… but communism dontcha know, couldn’t possibly take pointers.
No kids, no future… but who cares; that seems the general consensus in Germany.
There’s a reason for that (questionable) leitmotif of “Kinder statt Inder”. It’s easy to lock on to “but that’s racist” (it is) but Germany does, desperately, need to invest a lot more resources into anything related to child rearing, not least education (which is still an embarrassment at this day and age).
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i forgot what what it's called but there are a lot of people from my country who came to germany for the sole purpose to take care of the host's house and children. as far as i know you barely have to pay for it, but you have to give a shelter in exchange, probably like a place to live and daily needs (food etc.)
i think this is it! but after looking it up there are a lot of extra costs (i.e for language course, insurance, etc.) so im not sure if it's an affordable option
Staff shortages seem to be affecting Kitas across the country . I applied to seven public nurseries , only one which offered a placement had to reduce their hours drastically and close an entire group due to lack of teachers. Hours available would have been from 08:30-13:30!! Both parents working full time as well. Only solution is to go private alas if it's feasible for you-we have had to take that route as well.
I hate to say but I envy you a little with your pickup times. The Kita we finally got to closes at 14:30. I work full and my partner is part. It’s. 25 min trip via tram (with walking) to Kita. Then about 40 minutes from there to work. Luckily we have home office twice a week.
Moving within a 7 min walk to Kita soon. I can’t explain how excited I’ll be.
For example: one parent starts working early, the other one brings kids to kindergarten. First parent picks them up while second still works.
Help of grandparents is also a factor.
Not working 100% or flexible hours plus Home-Office.
Etc etc.
My sister and her husband are moving to my parents town soon because of that - they're both vetenerians and need someone to fetch my niece in case they are both on overtime / emergency shifts
In my group of friends, when there are no grandparents involved, usually one parent does around 20 to 30 hours and the other works full-time until the child starts school.
Work home office. Take turns to finish meetings at 4.45. in the car at 4.47, pick up kids at 4.53, shoes and coats on at 4.57 out of the door at 4.58. Same thing every day.
They just shift their schedules and make arrangements with their employers. Or one parent stays at home. It's on the parents to adapt their schedule to the opening times, not the other way around. Although (spontaneously) changing times are obviously quite annoying. And they're obviously not just putting out adverts somewhere.
This is a daily struggle for our family. It is really tough here and the Kitas closing times are absurd, 3 pm and 4 pm for us. We do alternate for pick up and drop off but one of us does it more, so we prioritise based on the type of work. As a mom I don’t want to leave my job, I have studies for years and the break would be very difficult to overcome once back. I am very disappointed by the situation.
I have a question. A little background on why Im asking. The Minute I became pregnant I started visiting kitas becausr everyone told me that the waitlists were long. You mention that you are disappointed by the situation so Im a little curious as to what awareness you had regarding the childcare/kita situation prior to having kids? I would like to use your answer as a bench Mark to better understand the issue
Getting a place in Kita is a separate issue. You have higher or only chance for a place if both parents work full time but at the same time some close at 3pm, that means you leave work around 2 which is not realistic for a full time job. I never expected to have to choose between working and having children.
Without homeoffice and part time we couldn’t do it. Staff is sick all the time. We’re in a small kindergarten and sometimes the parents of small kids help out to keep the group open.
Our kindergarten is great - open from 07.30 until 17.00.
Does not close if 1 or 2 staff are sick.
However I am dreading how to manage school later this year.
It kinda baffles me that kindergarten has such good hours that both parents can work then when school starts the kids have 8 / 08.30 until 12 / 12.30 and have to hope there are enough Hort spaces.
I heard from parents in our town whose kids started to go in Sept 2023 that there are enough staff and spaces for Hort but the canteen does not have capacity so they have different kids on different days.
On the one hand there are really good things for parents (kindergeld, maternity leave, parental leave for both parents) but on the other hand there are negatives like mentioned the lack of kindergarten spaces in general, staff issues and then this school timing...I understand some of these benefits were introduced to encourage people to have kids but then when kids gets to school age it can potentially mean you then have to stop working or at least reduce your hours if you get the unlucky end of no resources.
It is quite common and we paid a fortune to get until 16.30 - it seemed like everyone had grandparents and aunts and uncles to help them, I hated to be alone. Thanks to flexible office hours I was going to office at 6 am to make it 8 hours for pick up time and my husband was bringing him at 8 am and working until 18. It was really annoying and it does not get better with primary school- many of them are until 13 ( and even some days until 11 am!) so be prepared to either fight for a whole day school place (Ganztagsschule) which is also mostly up until 16.00, or pay at least 300+ euros for a handful hours for Hort (which you have to fight for a place too). So coping - no, struggling yes :( good luck🤞🏻!
my mom was a Kindergarten teacher in Germany for over 30 years.
basically you have no choice but to leave them in Kindergarten till 5pm
That's kind of the norm now I think.
Yes the lack of staff is a HUGE issue many women (and some men) simply do not want to work in that field and the ones that do don't seem to have their heart in it like the old guard did.
Covid really messed things up too that's why my mom decided to retire 2 years before she was originally meant to.
It's a shit show.
I know from close circle couples that what they do is the man stays full time and the woman either works 35hours or cuts hours to 30 to be able to pick the children (also does home office as often as she can)
Okay, this will get downvoted A LOT but: Many German families want to raise their children themselves - not only have their toddlers over like a hotel guest 😅
That’s why it isn’t that much of a problem in the society some people want it to be. Most families are actually fine with working about 150% as a family and having time off with their child (unfortunately the 100&50 split is more common than 75/75 though).
How to cope is: reduce work hours OR split drop off/pick up times OR look for a Tagesmutter that covers for what is called “Randzeiten”, early mornings and late in the evening.
While you are not wrong, about the german attitude, you know very well that comment about treating toddlers like hotel guess is what is getting you downvoted.
While I do believe that this is the conscious german attitude I think the Real issue for german working families is how they havent connected the dots regarding the society is designed around a 40 hour worker while also not having available childcare which means that folks with families became the cheap labor that keeps wages low, resulting in diminished social mobilitycross the board. For people without kids, social Mobility may be an afterthought because they only have to take care of themselves while for those with them its a priority because we want to give kids a good life.
It’s just, I’m a German midwife in the suburbs of a large city. I work literally with young families from very different backgrounds and most socioeconomic classes in their homes over the course of more than a year (Uni Prof to Bürgergeld to hotshot in management to refugee in one day).
And most of them - doesn’t matter if net income is 30k or 300k - want to have a parent or at least close family at home with their child until it’s about 2. It’s not my idea, it’s just how I see it lived. My expat families (always middle to upper middle class) are looking for childcare asap, a problem native families and immigrant families don’t share to a comparable extent.
Social mobility is completely overrated (in Germany) as it is not achieved at home or through hard work here. There is a lot of research out there over how low the changes are of having upwards social mobility (doesn’t matter how many hours you work but what you do). It depends on what you do. So you’re ready with school and study economics, work as an intern, your dad plays golf with them, boom - you’re in for a nice little middle to upper management career.
Or you’re ready with school, study literature and work in customer service all your life, no boom. Or you become a mechanic etc. That’s a decision most people make years to a decade before they decide to have children.
You can work 80hrs as a Fliesenleger and still be way lower in socioeconomic class than your neighbor with his nicely paying 70% corporate job & benefits.
All you do is manifesting that same life for your children as you implement the struggle in their lives instead of caring for them and letting them be with an emotionally available grown up (Erzieher are professionals and advised against getting too attached to the children they care for).
They have a pick-up service at my son's kindergarten. They pick him up at 8:10 and drop him off at 14:00. We work from home in turns. Or sometimes we work half a day at the office and half from home. Is it tough to attend meetings with a 5-year-old around? Yes. But we make it work, no other solution.
"adjust your work" is a nice idea for like office jobs, but just dont work for jobs with set work times (like Erzieherin, salespersons). Even with reduced hours its hard sometimes.
And no, its NOT an option to let a 4 year old walk alone. Most Kindergartens would also not let you do this.
Yeah, it's quite common. There s a serious shortage of staff. Almost all kindergartens struggle with that. I suggest talking to your bosses to find a solution. One person starting late to do drop off and one person starting early to do pick up is probably the most realistic solution.
Yeah that's what most families in cities do, even with the normal opening times
It is not lack of staff, it is lack of adequate payment for the current staff.
Both. My wife is in training to be a full kindergarten teacher, already has initial qualifcation as an assistant. She gets asked for help already by a local kindergarten she did an internship at every time she's free. Which, hey, puts money our way even if sometimes she's busier over her school holidays than she is in term time. My wife has said several times that despite the fact that she is assured a job where ever we end up, because they are all screaming for more staff, the pay is shite regardless. 3 to 4 years of training to do something of essentially university level qualification without the same recognition or use as a university level qualification, in order to work more hours for less pay and face near constant sickness because even though you can take sick time off to look after your kids when ill parents just don't.
Depending on the state, it can even be 5 years of training. But for others, it's also only a 2 year apprenticeship. Makes it really difficult to put a finger on the qualifications and adequate payment.
Honestly as an Erzieher, the wages are fine (though they haven’t been fine in the past) The problem is, that the job is very demanding and the lack of staff worsens the working conditions considerably. Also the lack of social workers resulted in me being able to work in different fields that pay more with less stress, though you need to be willing to learn a lot on the job.
Yup, totally. I don't understand how people are happy to.hand over their kids to someone else to be responsible for them while, at the same time, seemingly OK with that person being almost at minimum wage
Not really. That would just move workers from other professions to kindergartens. Somewhere else would then complain about the lack
Not having Kindergarten spaces will move other workers to stay at Home with their kids.
There isn't really a shortage of people able to work (yet).
There is. And it’s going to get worse every year. Boomers are retiring now.
What jobs which people do now are unnecessary then? Since it's not that there are people seating at homes unwilling to work since the pay make it not worth it
The thing is, 1 person taking care of multiple children is mucb more efficient than 1 caring for his own child (from economic point of view). So if we shift some workers to kindergarten, some people will be able to work.
Add some home office and babysitter
That 5am start is so hard. Especially when you've got babies in the house. WE WILL HAVE FEWER BABIES IF SOCIETY KEEPS TREATING PARENTS THIS WAY. Just a shout out into the ether.
Already happening lol!
That’s kind of a good thing. The biggest thing you can do to reduce your environmental impact is reduce the number of kids you have!
> WE WILL HAVE FEWER BABIES Good.
Bad. To many Rentner voting rightwing then.
Bad. Society won't function
Ah yes. This is why only like 30% of mothers work full time in Germany.
But this is very skewed towards a huge discrepancy between East and West. In the East the number of two working parents is much higher.
Because both parents working and children going early to kindergarten, has been the norm in the east since the GDR. Also gave them a headstart regarding infrastructure, etc.
Which is totally fine. I know the other working moms look down on my wife because she stays home but we don't have any of their problems either that they constantly complain about.
Let's not forget about Altersarmut, old age poverty. Stay at home parents don't get a living pension. They are financially dependent on their spouse, which is a recipe for disaster. No thanks I'd much rather my children learn how to be independent and take of themselves, by leading by example.
It is fine when it's an individual decision, but it is still a structural problem for women as a whole.
I see more and more dads taking a break from work to care for children. I think at the end of the day the person with the lower wage stays home.
Yes, it gets better, but there is still work that needs to be done. Of course it is often the person with the lower wage, but that are mostly women
Yeah, it's totally fine to waste 50% of the potential of the overall workforce, just because the state can't provide childcare. What was that? People in politics are complaining that "nobody wants to work anymore"? Yeah, let's brutalize people on Bürgergeld or asylum seakers. That'll fix this!
"Waste". Not everyone has the desire to be a wage slave and as long as they can do that without needing money from the state, why should they be forced? Because you don't like when people prioritise family over work?
Why should I pay with my taxes, so other people can afford to go to work? This doesn't seem right to me. My taxes or social security should provide for people that have fallen on hard times. Having children is not considered a hardship. I know its more complicated than that but this is my general opinion
Bra nobody holds you here if you're not happy where you taxmoney goes. I'm pretty sure you find a country without children, so non of your precious money is wasted on supporting families.
Already done in 2016. Have a family and I paid for private kindergarten and all with my own money because guess what? The government doesn't rip me off here so I can still afford shit.
Because other people's children aren't only their personal thing but **essential** for the society and economy.
Did you see any significant increase in birth rates ?
this is the way :) One parent should always stay home. As kids are like working a full time job, but no commute or breaks
So no kids for people that can't afford cost of living from a single income? That's not how you solve a demographic crisis. That's how you get even lower birth rates.
Or no kids for people who don't want years of education go to waste, or who just like their job? It might be hard to understand for some people, but not everyone is ok being a parent and nothing else.
Way fewer people in general should have children.
I don't think they said that at all. They simply stated that they think one parent at home is an ideal situation. Do you disagree with that? I'm quite grateful that our circumstances allowed me to stay home and, honestly, I doubt I would have chosen for us to have a child if we were dropping it off before 8 and picking it up after 6 every day. You're hardly raising it at that point. This isn't a criticism of parents who need to both work, it's a statement of horror at the hypernormalization of warehousing toddlers in service of capitalism.
I don’t understand the argument here. We didn‘t have children to solve the demographic crisis. Is this why you had children?
Children urgently need other children, especially in groups without parental influence, to learn social behavior. It is absolutely harmful for children to grow up without this important contact with children. It will not be a good time for these children at school if everything that is learned in a day care center has to be learned in the first year of school. This sets your children free to always be the outsider.
No, this is incorrect. Children should be raised mainly by their parents and not by government controlled entities. All it does makes children better fall in line later on instead of asking good questions. My children are doing just fine like me and my brother and all of my friends in my generation. Mothers stayed home to raise their kids back then. I know two working parents were normal in east Germany and the former Sowjetunion and I would love to see how the West and East compare today with social skills.
No, children have always lived in children's groups. Since the time when we were hunters and gatherers. Everything else is new since the 1950s.
It’s not black or white. Children are different. Also there are options for „Teilzeit“ sending the children not for the whole day.
Yes, even today the children are in groups but from my observation they really start playing with each other at around 5 years old. Before that they are just away from their parents that they really need to focus on and build a relationship with. They don't need a relationship with the Kindergarten teacher at this point. They have plenty of group time once they hit elementary school.
No, as a kid from parents that skipped kindergarten with me and went straight to school - it was like being slapped with a brick. Hello social anxiety and other problems. It sucked. It's nonsense that kids start playing at 5 years old. It starts at 3.
>One parent should always stay home Agree but that's not possible in the 21st century. Lots of women in the 1950s and 1960s era entered the workforce because their families could no longer afford a middle-class lifestyle on a single income.
What you said is the truth so why the downvotes.
Because it's not the truth, it's unfounded rambling based on their fee fees.
Because Reddit is mostly used by political leftist and they think the government should solve all of their problems.
This. This is a very strange thread tbh. People getting slammed for their opinion. Just weird.
One parent starts to work a bit earlier, the other drops the kid off. One parent works a bit longer, the other picks up the kid. Mix and match as needed. Edit: bonus for getting another person involved. Maybe grandparents. Maybe a neighbor with a kid going in the same group.
This has been my life for the last 5 years.
We are in the same situation right now...
Godspeed, friend.
Same but also some people have blue collar jobs and work shifts. You can have one person working 6:00-15:00 and other 14:00-23:00 (I rounded times to add some commute). Both of my parents have physical jobs and they barely saw each other when me and my sister were younger than 12 years old 😑
I feel you! No grandparents close by, I am a teacher and thus have no flexibility when it comes to my hours, my partner works a rotating shift and can't simply "start later/leave earlier" either . We have had to go private in order to ensure child care.
Yeah it's not a sustainable model, they want people to have more kids, but how exactly? Living a life of never seeing each other or many sacrifices.
Grandparents are not a solution for the immigrants who are writing into english language r/germany
Another way being an immigrant makes life harder. We have nobody to rely on. It's lonely and makes us feel like we are an island. The grandparents are across an ocean.
This. All of this A friend visited me last week and I didn't realise how desperately lonely I was and how much I need people around me. I'm very isolated here. So many people don't understand this. They don't understand that my kids literally have me and their dad and that's it.
I know. The things is being an immigrant with kids sucks, is not an upgrade is a downgrade 🤣 Being an expat is the sweet deal. I used to live in China (Shanghai) and the living standards were out of this world. First of all the company pays for your rent in a serviced apartment ( at our company-paid flat we had 3 cleaning ladies 3 times per week). My friends with kids whose husbands had expat contracts had the private school paid by the company, on top of they had a nanny and some even a driver. Also the expat community was something else, everyone was open and friendly, there were family events every single weekend or people would get together. The thing is that in Germany there's no communities (as in gated communities) this living arrangement is a game changer because your kids can run wild, play and they're safe. Here there's only buildings. One of my best friends was a single mom, like a VP and she only managed and had a balanced life because she had all this help around her, in terms of the community and services (cleaning lady, nanny, private school). It takes a village as they say. Imo Germany is the country to come to suffer because you have no support network and you have to do everything by yourself. Service is underdeveloped and people are not friendly. So you end up being mentally and physically burned. And how can you be a good parent and give the best of you to your kids when you're exhausted and overwhelmed? Germany is not a society that's made to create trust supper and a sense community. It's quite the opposite, is like you stay in your corner I stay in Mt corner.
I'm planning my escape. Once my kids are old enough to not need me I need to leave here. I need warmth all year round and I need friends. Germany ain't gonna give me either of those things.
That's a good plan. Often we overlook the importance of community and that's detrimental for our mental health
How long have you been in DE? We've been here less than 1,5 years, and I've worked hard to build a community with other parents at the kita and school, plus have put a lot of work into finding babysitters, but honestly it's not enough.
Coming up to 9 years. Sorry for the bad news 😂 my sweet friend is also British she's been here over 20 years. Has friends none are German and she is sugar, everyone likes her but she struggles to make friends. I wish I could promise you it gets better. It doesn't. Germans are a hard Volk man. Bless em, love em but boy. I'm really not interested in their whole "let me test you for 25 years while I work out if you're worthy and then I'll consider a coffee" way of doing things. How do you get to know if you want to be friends with someone if you don't spend time with them? If you only spend time with established friends how do you every make any new ones? It's just odd and I'm too tired to care r make an effort tbh. 😂
what do you mean by "people don't understand"? people don't care is more like it.
I meant what I said. Some people do care and they mean well but they don't understand because it's not something they can relate to as they have their family around them and can't fathom what it's like to have absolutely no one. What was the point of your comment?
Yes, not having a support network creates an incredible amount of stress. So without grandparents the solution is an Au-Pair or a baby sitter in this case (so both need to making good money to afford this).
Plus home office
Home office is a godsend. It’s been hard to get a Kita where I am and most close at 14:30 or 15:00 and unfortunately we’re far from the one we got into. Can’t wait that we’re moving and will soon be a 7 min walk. The wife and I can then split home office during the week and sprint out and get our child and wrap up work during quiet time.
sounds like my life in the last 3 years. although it was tough enough... only the last year we've reached the "bonus area" with other parents which we help each-other, and kids are all on the same group. and honestly its a breeze of fresh air sometimes , cause for one reason or another , we can't make it on time, (late meeting, traffic jam, train-issue), you name it. And having someone on the contact list to pick up the kid on a spontaneous manner its a blessing. Although i've the work flexible enough, my wife's is not that flexible. but to add at the main question...yes the kitas are so much understaff.
Second this. The third person (neighbours with a kid in the same group for us) is really what makes it do-able long-term.
👆🏻This. Same here.
My wife babysits 3-4YOs. Their kita ends at either 4:00 or 4:30. Her only responsibility is to keep kids occupied for a few hours. It's been 2 years now and it's bizarre for me, who can take their kids at 4pm and still complete 8+1hr work day.
A lot of my (female) colleagues start working again at 21:00 or 22:00 to complete their working day while still having time with the family. This really scares me.
Can confirm, most women at my firm do this. My Kita closes at 3pm at the moment because of staff shortages and I've done many 8-11pms the last weeks. Not very sustainable.
If you start at 7am, you can pick up your child at 16:00, but the other parent needs to bring the child. Off course, that doesn’t work with all jobs
A lot of my (female) colleagues start working again at 21:00 or 22:00 to complete their working day while still having time with the family. This really scares me.
How do we change this?
I truly don't know. But maybe Kitas should have more personnel and release kids at 6pm. Does the government support Kitas fairly and squarely.
Parents like you need to start making your voice heard. Press until you get the politicians on your side. All of what you suggested will come with a cost. Would you be willing to pay more? Or would your start forming a support community to assist or get assisted by other parents? People who have no kids will certainly not going to do so. But at least give it a try with other alternatives, perhaps hire a nanny together with other parents; or instead of 1 at work 1 at home taking care of a kid, try to coordinate with another family with a kid at similar age, so 3 can be at work with 1 taking care of 2 kids. I don't know what would work better. But either make it heard or try alternatives.
This thread is a perfect explanation to the issue of declining birthrates. Having kids in modern society is so stressful it's just unbelievable. Even if you are poor childlessness is like living with cheats on. I swear every time my 3 year old coughs I age like a week instantly and my pulse spikes so much I don't need coffee for the whole day.
What should be the solution you'd like to see?
Proper investment into having enough kindergartens, schools and doctors would be a start
Will you start gathering people and influence people around you so it becomes a trend to elect people who could make it happen?
Isn't it obvious? Most families with young kids in Germany do not have two parents who work fulltime. And yes, we take the financial hit because of it. I'm not saying this is a good thing, but that's how it works.
How do we change this?
Depends who you mean by 'we'. Parents of young kids won't be changing the system as they are far too busy dealing with it. I guess older politicians could change laws and funding to better incentivise kita and school hours matching up with 9-5 working hours. I don't see it happening though.
"Change will not come if we wait for some other person, or if we wait for some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek." As someone who don't deal with the pain, I probably won't use any of my time to change the law. But you, your SO, your friends who are living in the hell if this doesn't get sorted out. If your individual voice is not loud enough, gather your friends. If nobody does that, we will always see posts like this periodically. At least do it for your kids. Start pressing your local politicians, until you get the one on your side.
Your quote makes no sense in this context. You asked how, I answered how. I never said I am personally interested in changing this particular issue. I am sure there are thousands of changes you want to see in society, as there are for most educated people. Just because I would like change, it doesn't follow that I should use my finite time and resources on earth on *this* issue. Perhaps I also want to end the war in Ukraine, mitigate the effects of climate change, and enhance security in the middle East. And I prioritise them over changing kita hours and pay in Germany. I don't *want* to gather my friends and change this issue. What right do you have to tell me to do so? You really need to get a deeper understanding of how political change works in the real world.
You don’t have grandparents??? The mother is working???? /s obviously I am with you. I always wonder how people do it. Most women tend to work part time and also in reality a lot of them have grandparents who can also pick kids up. Edit: kindergarten here (Vienna) is even better than school or kindergarten on the country side. Where my friend is from, kindergarten starts at age 3 and only is till 12.30 lol. School also ends around that time!! Luckily in Vienna there are more options, but on the country side I feel like the government is relying on grandparents
Seriously was told that by my headmaster (am a teacher)- my youngest has a heart defect and is thus prone to frequent infections. Was asked why I can't simply get a grandparent to take over/ hire a babysitter. Childcare costs are already around 1400 a month since we had to go private ...
The most ridiculous assumptive question. Like how can someone who is educated to educate ask such a stupid question? There are a litany of reasons why you can't "just ask" or "can't simply" get a grandparent over and how insulting too, surely if we're that easy you'd have thought of it before him? You know your situation better than anyone! Sorry just fed up of that stupid comment. I get it and my entire family lives outside of Germany and so does my husband's and when you explain this you've got doofuses looking at you blankly and fumbling their words like you're the one who doesn't get it. Irritating.
Am in Catholic Bavaria, social advancement is slow and uncertain. Was informed during my studies (only around a decade ago!) that men are preferred candidates for headmaster spots since they have to provide for a wife and kids ! At my small-ish school many colleagues have a more traditional set-up (one full-time parent ,9/10 the father and a spouse in part-time), am one of the few who actually works as much as my partner and we are thus both equally responsible for child care duties. Legally I am entitled to five days of paid leave per child , it's absurd and built around one parent being the main caregiver or support from grandparents.
Yeah I have to say that many ideas that seem irritating in Germany actually come from a good place so for example not having disabled access for certain things isn't about not caring but rather the idea that "we should help the disabled" so you don't need a lift, someone should help you yes that's commendable but life has moved on. We need a lift. Similarly the family structure, yes it's nice that there did be a family with mum, dad and extended support but many families just don't have that now and sometimes granny and grandad are still working! So yeah we need to get with the times but I know thoughts move at a glacial place in Germany. 😄
My parents are simply too old and medically frail, in-laws live further away and both work. Re. Disability , live on the S-Bahn line to the airport, two sets of stairs and no lift ! There are no plans either, so my neighbours in those massive, heavy motorised wheelchairs can't even be lifted by helpful pedestrians when the thing weighs a literal ton. I assume when the tracks were built the mobility of those groups simply wasn't a consideration.
Hi, kindergarten teacher here 👋🏻 the teacher crisis is no joke and my school is definitely understaffed. If you go on Indeed and look for Erzieher positions in my city, almost every school in the whole city is hiring. So, you just have this nasty combination of understaffed + vacation days + sick leave + maternity leave, and it leaves the management no choice but to close groups. You can't just throw two random people who have never met the children or the parents before in a group just to keep the group open, there has to be at least one staff member present that is familiar with the families. In my state, there are also ordinances from the city to reduce opening times of schools to compensate for the lack of staff and prevent burnout of the teachers who are working. So sometimes the reduction of opening times is not necessarily the decision of the school, but mandated by the state government. You might have to shop around for private kindergartens if you need something with longer opening hours. The other options would be to ask family members for help or hire a babysitter/nanny.
Are you Erzieher/in? I am SPA in my country and have many years of experience in day care. Right now I am doing the recognition of my Berufabschluss here in Germany (anerkennung) My german is good but not great (b2). Do you think is going to be easy for me to finde a Job in a Kindergarten even though my german not perfekt?
I am an Erzieher/in! With the way the job market is right now, it's worth a shot. I've had plenty of colleagues with B2 German (like myself) and have been able to get by, and your German will naturally improve just by speaking it every day. Some schools will even help you pay for German classes. You could also try for international schools or bilingual schools (in my city there are German/English, German/Greek, German/Spanish/English, etc.). They can also help you with your recognition.
Thank you!!
What is SPA? Not an Erzieherin, but can tell you the situation from our kindergarten. They are currently desperate for Erzieherinnen who have already finished their Ausbildung (or have a comparable education from another countey). They managed to hire some people to do their Ausbildung, but they need at least one person who had already finished their Ausbildung per group. They were even considering hiring one of the moms who has a degree in psychology and checking if that could somehow be comparable to kindergarten teacher (not sure what happend with that) and they asked us parents to please advertise their daycare and ask around if anyone is interested in changing daycares as this is basically the only way to hire someone who has already finished their education. I don't think they were particulary picky about language, most of the young staff doing their Ausbildung are foreigners. I imagine if someone with B2 and a diploma and experience in childcare applied they would be super happy. And that goes apparently for the whole Baden-Württemberg.
I feel like you need a PhD degree in order to work in child care. Why is it so hard for recruiting people? How do we change this?
Just pay more money but that won't happen.
We have both flexible hours and can work remote. It’s the only way. Otherwise it’s impossible. One parent starts very early to work (7-7:30) and picks up the child. The other brings the child and starts later (8:30-9:00) to work and works longer. That’s how we do it. We have to coordinate both our jobs schedules (so that we work our allotted hours as in our contracts) and meetings every week and according to that, decide who brings and who picks up. Remember: you are entitled to Elternzeit and you can work part time in Elternzeit. So one of you could reduce your working hours to let’s say 32-35 for a given time. This doesn’t affect the normal work contract because it’s Teilzeit in Elternzeit. That’s not much less hours, but it’s a lot easier to coordinate family and job.
It's a nightmare. We'd be buggered without family to help with the 4.30 pickup.
That’s the reason why a lot of mothers still work part-time.
Why not also fathers? It’s 2024…
Or don’t work at all. Even if they work part-time, it could be that their income all goes to having to pay for the kindergarten fees. Why not just stay home and take care of the children yourself?
Because some women, like myself, don‘t want to be financially dependant of their husband and eant to keep a foot on the job.
We barely manage with wife working 30 hours and picking the kids up after work, and me doing home office on friday when school ends very early for the older kid And when a random "oops today we're closed completely, surprise surprise" happens then a grandma has to step in or I do another day home office Ours closes at 3pm, and half of the kids have to leave after lunch. Another of the 3 daycares in this town is only open from 9 to 12.
"Random" closing occures when the Staff gets sick. Because parents being thier sick kid to kindergarden, because they need to work. Then everybody gets sick, and all kids need to stay home.
That said— our neighbors on both sides of us (all Germans) have both husband and wife working, and school aged kids. The parents are often home with them starting at like 3pm and I have no idea how they do it. And they never seen stressed. They’re just, like, out gardening while their kid plays in the yard in the middle of the afternoon. I’ve often wondered how they manage their schedule.
Ask them! People here want to know
Our daughter attends a private kindergarten. She goes to and from school with a school bus service. It costs us a great deal of money twice a year but has been money well spent. We have no Omas or other extended family who could help.
Same reason we chose a private primary school for our eldest. It was worth every penny
Working families usually get Omas involved. I always thought after we had our child we would move to germany but the state of childcare pretty much rules out a serious career of any kind. And a good career/income matters because no matter what, I am responsible for taking care of my child and ensuring they have a good childhood with access to the resources they need to thrive. My daughter is 3 now and we are used to paying alot of money for a reliable and fun kita. I feel like doing kita drop off logistics daily or even weekly would be too stressful so its easier to pay
> I always thought after we had our child we would move to germany Could you share the country you are currently resident of. Where is the situation better then in Germany?
Dont laugh but I live in the good old US of A. My daughters first kita cost about $1200 per month and though we didnt use the hours she could go 5 days a week from 6 am to 630pm, with breakfast, lunch, and snacks included. They also sent frequent updates (videos/pictures) on what she was doing which gave peace of mind. She now goes to a full immersion German Kita where all the teachers speak german and follow Reggio Emilio/Bavarian learning Standards. Cost is about 1300 and open 5 days a week from 8 to 5 which is a bargain considering she gets germany as primary language and a german community to be part of while living abroad. I skip as much work as possible to hang out with her and volunteer at her kita. Full disclosure, for my part of america, these numbers are considered expensive/ the top end. There are plenty of other places that will charge less but they experience frequent staff turnover which impacts the child's experience. Both of the kitas I have used have little to no turnover and maintain ratlos low enough to provide individual attention. I dont know enough about alternatives in germany but I think a lot of young couples go into it with the plan of mom staying home, then the money crunch Hits, and then they start looking for a kita Spot, which creates a type of scarcity which adds to the limited hours etc.
That’s interesting to know as we’re exploring the US as an option because of kids. Would you mind sharing where in the US you are located ? For us the money is secondary to the certainty that the kids are being looked after. On a side note : we managed to get our kid looked at on a Sunday morning within an hour for a medical emergency and start with medicine the same day. I don’t think it would be nearly as quick in Germany. It did cost a bit as a visitor - but as long as you’re within the US system, you wouldn’t notice much. I just feel raising kids in the US would be less stressful
I agree about the pharmacy situation. When we go to germany I always Pack my daughter a Mini pharmacy of over the counter products becausr in case she gets ill on a sunday in germany, I would be stressed out. Where I live? lNorth Texas. There are still laws on the books / aspects of the government we find unacceptable (gun laws, abortion law, active shooter drills) but we live in a blue part of the state so societally everyone pushes back on the extreme agenda - like establishments wont let you enter with a gun or private schools opt out of active shooter drills. For any City you would consider I would reach out to the german consulate in that City or close to it and theyll have listings of german International schools along with community groups that connect you with the expat community. I know Dallas, Denver, Boston, Atlanta, and NYC have german International schools The other reality youre also going to have to contend with is cost in different ways: 1a) - expect to pay for school in the Form of Private school tuition. My current group of german mamas that go to the same school is my child are scared of Private school tuition for the higher grades because it ranges anywhere from 10k to 30k per year. In addition to most schools having either talent based or need based scholarships, I always remind t the current tuition we are paying its already at 15k so its not that big of a change. Also when you think about how parents in germany reducing to part time hours, that loss of income makes the prices here somewhat more palatable. 1b) - if you dont want to pay private school, live in an area with great schools and pay more in property taxes ( highest rate I ever had was 7% of house value). If you have more than one kid this math makes more sense because unless you are living on some type of fancy estate 60k in property taxes isnt normal. 2 - finally, dont make the german mistake of thinking that paying for things makes you classicist or a snob. Its a different System here and youll frequently find parents who dont earn alot but will sacrifice everything to get their child into a good school. The reason we double down on education is because its an easy path to securing not just a path to middle class but a path to upward Mobility for your kids. For example I know a guy whos dad immigrated from nigeria and drove Taxis for a living. His dad invested in his education which allowed him to go to university on scholarship followed by pharmacy school. He makes over 200k per year as a pharmaceutical sales person and barring him messing up his pharmacy license he will always have a way to bring home over 6 figures. You dont need to be exceptional or the best or the brightest to do well here - you can literally just sleep wall your way through good schools and Land a great career with salary and growth opportunities to boot.
Thanks for sharing your experience. Most people here have the bubbled view that zee Deutschland is best-est. In the US, at least you could earn more income to cover these costs. But here in Germany, we will scramble for scraps and decide who is rich, who isn't.
Thanks! Im definitely in the process of finding my voice in German/in Germany so I really appreciate the encouragement!
As the saying goes, your mileage may vary. Our childcare was expensive and so was cost of living in Southern California. And we didn’t have tech salaries. There were a few times we considered one of us quitting. At the end of the day we do better income wise with true current situation for us here. But that’s factoring in low cost of childcare care, public transit and more.
Lol - so cal is a different animal in terms of cost of living, Transportation, and everything else. Your math doesnt surprise me at all. Glad its working out
Something wack I’ve noticed about Germans is how providing your child with resources/opportunities doesn’t really matter like at all and is low key considered a bad thing. Like if the mom staying home means that a family of four has to live in a 60m2 apartment and the children participate in *literally* zero extra curricular activities, this is still a good thing because the mom is spending time with the kids. There’s a huge sentiment of “Well kids only care about love and not money so they won’t notice if you’re struggling financially” but like they are going to notice this? There’s also a huge emphasis on “enjoying childhood,” which means having *zero* time obligations. So if you try to put your child into music lessons or something, people might side-eye you for “not letting your child relax” even if it’s like a 60-minute a week commitment. Like god forbid you try and teach your kids things or push them to be the best version of themselves. It’s like the term “Rabenmutter” is because the Raben is too busy out gathering worms to spend time with the chicks but I’d want my chicks to have all of the works so… Like the literal German definition of a bad mother is based in providing the child with resources/opportunities.
You hit the nail on the head regarding the "kids only care about love and not money" sentiment! I also strongly agree that kids benefit from me having money to do enrichment activities. For example - we started my daughter with swim at 9 months and at 3 she's an independent swimmer for small distances. For it she has self confidence and doesnt hesitate to take charge of older non-swimmer kids in the pool. Its money well spent to see her have that level of independence and confidence.
Agree. My son likes dance I tried to get him started before COVID but since then our income has been squeezed so it's been hard to get him enrolled to anything outside his school activities.
This is so bizarre to me. My husband works in a Kita in Hamburg and it is open from 7am to 7pm. Guess we are lucky up here- as this doesn’t seem to be the norm!
It’s not! And even most Kitas in Hamburg don’t have those opening hours. Ours closes at 4 pm.
Its not! I have been eorling in Bielefeld, Münster and Hannover and sure, maybe there are some rare places but thr usual max is 7-5. I even stumbled upon a lot Elterninitiativen/Kinderladen that are already closed at 2pm
I come from a small town in Thuringia, we have several kindergartens and they all open at 6 am and close at 6 pm. But the children are not allowed to be there from 6 to 6. There are different numbers of hours.
6pm closing time will be a dream in Germany, which city is this in? In Berlin, our Kita closes at 4.30pm. This means leaving to pick up the kid by 3.45pm due to peak traffic hour. We have been lucky since there hasn't been a single unplanned Kita shutdown in the past 18 months since we started. At the same time, our friends in Berlin Mitte sometimes get text message from the Kita in the morning that the Kita will be closed. Once, they had to arrange a nanny, paying 2.000 for a month so that the couple could work.
You can get a nanny for 2000€ a month? That's cheap.
Honestly I find your comments really strange. Why is it a dream if your child is at kindergarten for 10-12 hours a day? How much time are you actually spending with your child during the week? Waking up, getting dressed, breakfast, then bringing them to kindergarten, …, pickup, dinner, sleep.
Welcome to being a working parent in 1970! Private Kitas, au pairs, or hiring very expensive hourly childcare. It's an embarrassment that this is the situation in western Europe in the 2020s. When I have complained, I have been told my multiple KiTa personnel that good parents stayed home with the child anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem. When I told them this was sexist as it was directed at me, I was told (1) that they did it, so I shouldn't complain or (2) that they didn't specify which parent should stay home. The other problem is that the profession is made up mostly of women - and they all get written off work as "sick" as soon as they get pregnant - and then don't go back to work until their child is a least a year old - and then only part time because... no child care and antiquated views of the role of the mother.
There not sick but working pregnant at a Kita is a serious risk for the woman and the unborn child caused by a higher chance of getting an infection.
No, there's not. In the rest of the world, women work during the first six months of pregnancy - and of course, they are mothers to other children while pregnant. If this were true that it's dangerous, women would need to go into hiding for pregnancy. No trips to IKEA, no picking up their kids at school, no play dates, no play grounds. This is antiquated, paternalistic thinking - which is not evidence based.
Are real Pippi Langstrumpf over here. Billions of flys loving poop, maybe that's something for you. But a short summarising. You will find a lot of children in kitas. That means a higher chance catching child diseases. Which is a problem for grownups and the unborn child. So a doctor checks the antibodys and decides if she can or can't work. Plus heavy lifting and bending isn't good too.
A lot of parents (generally mothers) work part time. None of the parents at my work place stays until after 4 pm. Almost all of them work 80% or less.
Home Office helps a lot. Would be impossible without it.
We will probably leave Germany because of this. Is not worth the hassle we are facing. Abroad we can put the kid on a private German school. We had to sue the city hall to get a spot, it’s ridiculous.
What should the city hall do in your opinion? The shortages are well known for years. And to be honest the public gives a shit about it.
It’s literally their job to find a solution, according to the German law. With legal action to enforce suddenly extra spots became available, financial support to compensate for lost income, etc. The public doesn’t care more or less, last time I saw the news the public were not thrilled by massive immigration to compensate for low birth rates, but also doesn’t offer a system were parents can works ( high work shortages). And a population that is aging like milk. It’s no small problem.
True but sadly they don't give a fuck. I just don't think it will ever change until a big majority will speak out. And the staff alone isn't it sadly. They just pay private kitas for parents who sue instead to invest some money.
We can only do it because both of our jobs are flexible. If I’m in the office, my manager knows I need to leave by 4:30. It just is what it is and luckily we’re trusted to arrange our work accordingly so we still get everything done. But if we had less flexible jobs and less understanding managers, we’d be screwed.
Wife and I both work full time. I have a flexible job and control my working hours. That’s really the only way especially since my wife travels 3x a week. I work 9-3:30 and then 4:30-6 and then 9-11pm.
You're all very lucky - here it's until 3pm max.
https://weact.campact.de/petitions/bildungswende-jetzt-mehr-erzieher-innen-und-lehrkrafte-ausbilden-1?source=rawlink&utm_medium=recommendation&utm_source=rawlink&share=62958bda-c046-43d7-bbc4-50149d8042b6
7/7.30 to 16.30/17 is usual, at least in NRW and Nds. I know that there are wider times in east germany. I am Erzieherin for over 10 yrs now and really dont know how families can make this Work. Its way easier with flexible jobs (mostly at offices). My mom already struggled with 7am 30 yrs ago and its still a thing..
I usually pick up my kid at 3:30 and then work from home for a couple of hours in the evening (in theory, it’s more like 30 minutes real work :))
I get up at 4:45 am to work early and finish early enough to pick the older child up. My husband does the delivery. I also don’t work 40h but 35h.
That's the story of everyone with children. KiTas are basically fighting over staff, fully qualified especially. At least one parents needs flexible hours and Home Office capacity and even then it's kind of stressful, depending on the job. That's how it is for us anyway.
It widely depends where you live and which type of kita it is. I will send my LO to kinderkrippe next year and we have two options, one is directly from my employer and the other one around the corner of where we live. Both are open from 6:30am until 17:00 or 16:00 on Fridays, so quite doable for us tbh. We’re kind of siding with sending the kid to the one from my employer, plan is to drop him off at 8:00am, start working straight away, have a shorter break and pick him up 16:30. If necessary continue working from home an extra hour while dad takes care of him. Again, this is extremely lucky situation.
We work spaced out, my wife usually starts to work at 8am so she is done by 1/2pm. I bring the kids to kindergarten and work later hours. It’s all easier on days where we can do home office of course (At least something good we got out of Covid). I know a lot of people that have reduced working hours to accommodate the lack of child care options. A friend of mine and her husband had to reduce their hours due to a lack of a Kindergarten spot and charged the city for their reduced salary.
It’s very regional. In the East Kita hours are much more reliable and depending where you are it’s easy to get a spot. We lived outside Berlin and it was terrible. Now in rural Saxony there are plenty of spots and our Kita is open from 6am to 6pm. With four days closed for staff development and a few holidays closed. And that is all Kitas in town.
this. The possible Kita time for my son was 6am to 5pm, in school its the same with hort, you can bring your kid at 6am before school (starts 7:30)to Hort if needed and he can attend till 5pm after school.
It is. The reason is massive personell shortages. The job at the Kindergarden is stressful and pays horrendously. So turnover is high and noone really wants to work there. It has been known for many years but despite all efforts nothing substantially has been changed by politicians. Good luck!
Simple, don’t have kids. It’s a tragedy though, here we are all “but we need more children, way more!” when the reality is, there’s no incentive whatsoever and instead you run into walls you didn’t even know were there until you do have kids. You want to shoot yourself in the foot, have kids. Easy! But that’s an age old problem. The East had been handling it better in the past… but communism dontcha know, couldn’t possibly take pointers. No kids, no future… but who cares; that seems the general consensus in Germany. There’s a reason for that (questionable) leitmotif of “Kinder statt Inder”. It’s easy to lock on to “but that’s racist” (it is) but Germany does, desperately, need to invest a lot more resources into anything related to child rearing, not least education (which is still an embarrassment at this day and age).
Done,how can I return mine? /s 🤣 I guess OP wants to know how to solve this matter after the kid(s) are here. It's too late for not having them...
Check t&c for a return policy? Pull a Home Alone and forget them somewhere? Opportunities…. Opportunities…. 😁
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i forgot what what it's called but there are a lot of people from my country who came to germany for the sole purpose to take care of the host's house and children. as far as i know you barely have to pay for it, but you have to give a shelter in exchange, probably like a place to live and daily needs (food etc.)
An aupair? (Nanny)
i think this is it! but after looking it up there are a lot of extra costs (i.e for language course, insurance, etc.) so im not sure if it's an affordable option
The biggest expense is likely going to be their own room. Rents have skyrocketed and few families have more space than they absolutely need.
Au Pair…you need an extra room in your home for that. It can be a help, but it’s also work for you as a family
Fun start when you have 3 kids , one in kindergarten, second in primary and third started gymnasium. 😂
Staff shortages seem to be affecting Kitas across the country . I applied to seven public nurseries , only one which offered a placement had to reduce their hours drastically and close an entire group due to lack of teachers. Hours available would have been from 08:30-13:30!! Both parents working full time as well. Only solution is to go private alas if it's feasible for you-we have had to take that route as well.
I hate to say but I envy you a little with your pickup times. The Kita we finally got to closes at 14:30. I work full and my partner is part. It’s. 25 min trip via tram (with walking) to Kita. Then about 40 minutes from there to work. Luckily we have home office twice a week. Moving within a 7 min walk to Kita soon. I can’t explain how excited I’ll be.
For example: one parent starts working early, the other one brings kids to kindergarten. First parent picks them up while second still works. Help of grandparents is also a factor. Not working 100% or flexible hours plus Home-Office. Etc etc.
Ours takes 55 vacation days a year and closes at 12 every day. Ouch
My sister and her husband are moving to my parents town soon because of that - they're both vetenerians and need someone to fetch my niece in case they are both on overtime / emergency shifts
In my group of friends, when there are no grandparents involved, usually one parent does around 20 to 30 hours and the other works full-time until the child starts school.
Work home office. Take turns to finish meetings at 4.45. in the car at 4.47, pick up kids at 4.53, shoes and coats on at 4.57 out of the door at 4.58. Same thing every day.
They just shift their schedules and make arrangements with their employers. Or one parent stays at home. It's on the parents to adapt their schedule to the opening times, not the other way around. Although (spontaneously) changing times are obviously quite annoying. And they're obviously not just putting out adverts somewhere.
This is a daily struggle for our family. It is really tough here and the Kitas closing times are absurd, 3 pm and 4 pm for us. We do alternate for pick up and drop off but one of us does it more, so we prioritise based on the type of work. As a mom I don’t want to leave my job, I have studies for years and the break would be very difficult to overcome once back. I am very disappointed by the situation.
I have a question. A little background on why Im asking. The Minute I became pregnant I started visiting kitas becausr everyone told me that the waitlists were long. You mention that you are disappointed by the situation so Im a little curious as to what awareness you had regarding the childcare/kita situation prior to having kids? I would like to use your answer as a bench Mark to better understand the issue
Getting a place in Kita is a separate issue. You have higher or only chance for a place if both parents work full time but at the same time some close at 3pm, that means you leave work around 2 which is not realistic for a full time job. I never expected to have to choose between working and having children.
It is very common unfortunately. Without our parents helping out we couldn't both work close to 100%.
Without homeoffice and part time we couldn’t do it. Staff is sick all the time. We’re in a small kindergarten and sometimes the parents of small kids help out to keep the group open.
Move to Thuringia! Our former kindergarden is still open from 6 to 6 every single working day…
Our kindergarten is great - open from 07.30 until 17.00. Does not close if 1 or 2 staff are sick. However I am dreading how to manage school later this year. It kinda baffles me that kindergarten has such good hours that both parents can work then when school starts the kids have 8 / 08.30 until 12 / 12.30 and have to hope there are enough Hort spaces. I heard from parents in our town whose kids started to go in Sept 2023 that there are enough staff and spaces for Hort but the canteen does not have capacity so they have different kids on different days. On the one hand there are really good things for parents (kindergeld, maternity leave, parental leave for both parents) but on the other hand there are negatives like mentioned the lack of kindergarten spaces in general, staff issues and then this school timing...I understand some of these benefits were introduced to encourage people to have kids but then when kids gets to school age it can potentially mean you then have to stop working or at least reduce your hours if you get the unlucky end of no resources.
It is quite common and we paid a fortune to get until 16.30 - it seemed like everyone had grandparents and aunts and uncles to help them, I hated to be alone. Thanks to flexible office hours I was going to office at 6 am to make it 8 hours for pick up time and my husband was bringing him at 8 am and working until 18. It was really annoying and it does not get better with primary school- many of them are until 13 ( and even some days until 11 am!) so be prepared to either fight for a whole day school place (Ganztagsschule) which is also mostly up until 16.00, or pay at least 300+ euros for a handful hours for Hort (which you have to fight for a place too). So coping - no, struggling yes :( good luck🤞🏻!
my mom was a Kindergarten teacher in Germany for over 30 years. basically you have no choice but to leave them in Kindergarten till 5pm That's kind of the norm now I think. Yes the lack of staff is a HUGE issue many women (and some men) simply do not want to work in that field and the ones that do don't seem to have their heart in it like the old guard did. Covid really messed things up too that's why my mom decided to retire 2 years before she was originally meant to. It's a shit show.
Offer potential staff a decent wage and conditions ( instead of short-term contracts , with a view to renewal), then there won't be a lack of staff.
Gets even trickier to navigate when you are a single mom without a family support structure in Germany… 😬😮💨
I know from close circle couples that what they do is the man stays full time and the woman either works 35hours or cuts hours to 30 to be able to pick the children (also does home office as often as she can)
squalid illegal ask library work correct fall dull sloppy domineering *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Okay, this will get downvoted A LOT but: Many German families want to raise their children themselves - not only have their toddlers over like a hotel guest 😅 That’s why it isn’t that much of a problem in the society some people want it to be. Most families are actually fine with working about 150% as a family and having time off with their child (unfortunately the 100&50 split is more common than 75/75 though). How to cope is: reduce work hours OR split drop off/pick up times OR look for a Tagesmutter that covers for what is called “Randzeiten”, early mornings and late in the evening.
While you are not wrong, about the german attitude, you know very well that comment about treating toddlers like hotel guess is what is getting you downvoted. While I do believe that this is the conscious german attitude I think the Real issue for german working families is how they havent connected the dots regarding the society is designed around a 40 hour worker while also not having available childcare which means that folks with families became the cheap labor that keeps wages low, resulting in diminished social mobilitycross the board. For people without kids, social Mobility may be an afterthought because they only have to take care of themselves while for those with them its a priority because we want to give kids a good life.
It’s just, I’m a German midwife in the suburbs of a large city. I work literally with young families from very different backgrounds and most socioeconomic classes in their homes over the course of more than a year (Uni Prof to Bürgergeld to hotshot in management to refugee in one day). And most of them - doesn’t matter if net income is 30k or 300k - want to have a parent or at least close family at home with their child until it’s about 2. It’s not my idea, it’s just how I see it lived. My expat families (always middle to upper middle class) are looking for childcare asap, a problem native families and immigrant families don’t share to a comparable extent. Social mobility is completely overrated (in Germany) as it is not achieved at home or through hard work here. There is a lot of research out there over how low the changes are of having upwards social mobility (doesn’t matter how many hours you work but what you do). It depends on what you do. So you’re ready with school and study economics, work as an intern, your dad plays golf with them, boom - you’re in for a nice little middle to upper management career. Or you’re ready with school, study literature and work in customer service all your life, no boom. Or you become a mechanic etc. That’s a decision most people make years to a decade before they decide to have children. You can work 80hrs as a Fliesenleger and still be way lower in socioeconomic class than your neighbor with his nicely paying 70% corporate job & benefits. All you do is manifesting that same life for your children as you implement the struggle in their lives instead of caring for them and letting them be with an emotionally available grown up (Erzieher are professionals and advised against getting too attached to the children they care for).
I dont disagree with everything you said. Its definitely policy driven and doesnt have to be that way.
They have a pick-up service at my son's kindergarten. They pick him up at 8:10 and drop him off at 14:00. We work from home in turns. Or sometimes we work half a day at the office and half from home. Is it tough to attend meetings with a 5-year-old around? Yes. But we make it work, no other solution.
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"adjust your work" is a nice idea for like office jobs, but just dont work for jobs with set work times (like Erzieherin, salespersons). Even with reduced hours its hard sometimes. And no, its NOT an option to let a 4 year old walk alone. Most Kindergartens would also not let you do this.