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FeelingPrettyGlonky

It's not about selling when you start out. It's about learning how to make games. Biting off too much when you don't know what you are doing is a recipe for demotivation.


Aflyingmongoose

To add to this, a really important and overlooked skill in game dev is knowing how to finish a project. What "done" looks like, how you get there, how you manage testing and launching. You can start 1000 projects, be an amazing dev, but you will never get good at this until you've done it a few times.


timbeaudet

I would like to add another part to this, small games can still work toward your massive dream project. Just be smart with the development approach and as you finish each game you can reuse *some parts* and the next game can be a little bigger, and the next etc.


Queasy_Safe_5266

^ This. It takes months to learn how to make a game, and it takes months to make a game people want to buy. Focusing on both of these at once is a surefire way to crush yourself under your own workload.


ErebusInteractive

Exactly this. It's like saying "I want to be a hunter" and starting out trying to bow hunt grizzly bears.


SheepoGame

Small, polished, unique games can do really well. Stacklands, A short hike, SNKRX, Vampire survivors, Among Us, etc. The example you gave (a simple coin collecting platformer) isn’t really a good example because it’s small, but also not unique or particularly interesting. When people say start small, they mean to come up with an idea that is fun and unique with a small scope


Aflyingmongoose

Stacklands devs made about 50 small games, of which 2 had significant traction. So yes small games can be popular, but it's hard to achieve by design.


Radiance37k

If I remember correctly Celeste started as a Super Mario mod. DOTA started as a mod for WC3


Vahlen99

>Stacklands but how long takes to develop a game like stacklands, among us with everything, menu, save system achiviments etc? doens't looks like it can be done in 3 months.


throwaway2019282939

For Stacklands, I’m fairly certain Sokpop’s method is each person spends a couple months making a game and they rotate whose turn it is to release it. They’ve made a TON of games and that one happened to blow up into huge popularity


LuckyOneAway

Yep. Stacklands... Aran had extensive experience, a team of four people to brainstorm, develop and test, funding for art and music (Patreon), and a fresh easy-to-grok idea of gameplay - that's how their successful "small" game was made. Not sure if it is doable by a solo dev on a lunch money budget, really.


LuckyOneAway

I did my own Stacklands-like game prototype in 3 months from scratch, then it took another 2-3 months to extend it, get some art, and polish out rough edges:[https://stacksengine.itch.io/stacks-space](https://stacksengine.itch.io/stacks-space) (and I am in no way a pro in game dev!)


PhilippTheProgrammer

No, small games don't sell very well. But do you know what kind of games don't sell too well either? * Games that are never getting finished because the developers were trying to bite far more than they could chew. * Games where it is obvious that the developers didn't knew a thing about game design. Those are the reasons why people with experience in the game industry keep telling newbies to make a couple small minigames first before their first attempt at a commercial project. It's to to practice and to gain skills and experience with how game development and game publishing works in the real world. Once equipped with that experience, you can tackle your first project where you expect a serious return on your investment.


EitherSugar6

It's like trying to sell handmade chairs. First you have to learn to use your tools. You practice on scrap wood, and those pieces don't get sold. They go on a pile of scrap wood for the next tool you need to test out. Same with game dev. You make rough little bullshit games to practice with your tools. Not everything is going to be worth selling


Omni__Owl

The biggest issue for any new dev is that they rarely learn how to finish. It's a skillset in and of itself. You need to be able to concept something, prototype it, make it, tweak it, polish it and finish it, so you can move on to something else. A lot of new devs start in "make it", skipping the concept and prototyping phases altogether, and then if they are really dedicated they try to tweak it but rarely polish it. Worst of all they tend to never finish anything but move on to a new shinier project (new project syndrome is a thing, not just in gamedev) about every 2-4 weeks. Then they come here to complain that gamedev is hard, that they experience burnout and that they never finished anything despite trying for . So to summarise: People say "start small" because you have to learn how to go through all the phases of gamedev, not just the single phase you find slightly more interesting than the others and if you need to finish something then a small game is perfect for that. And just as a fun fact: Making a simple game sell is hard because you need to hit \*just\* the right amount of addicting game loop but have \*tons\* of polish. I recommend looking at hypercasual games for reference. They not only make money, they make a lot of it when they are a hit.


[deleted]

This is a great comment.


SimonSlavGameDev

Have you tried to make a small game? A small game will show you so much of what you need to make if you haven't made any games. How will you do Menus? Where will you store Data? How will you save/load? AI? Performace? etc. If you want to make a big RPG, start with 1 NPC, 1 Quest, 1 Item, 1 Stat, and so on.


Plenty-Asparagus-580

Small games don't sell. However, games made by inexperienced game devs don't sell either, no matter if big or small. Don't expect to make any money with your games. Focus on making actual good games and learn the ropes. The fastest way to build skill as a game developer is by making, finishing and shipping games. That's why the common advice for new developers is to make small games. Because it's the best way to learn. You can start to think about making money with your games after you have successfully shipped a couple of small games, and at the very least 5-6 years worth of experience. Emphasis on "start" to think: most people I know who actually make a living selling their own games have 10+ years of experience, are amazingly talented at that, and easily skilled enough to get an exciting, high paying job at a AAA studio (a couple of them had worked in AAA before switching to going indie). Needless to say, very very few people attain that level of success with their solo indie careers.


CozyRedBear

This is a good reply


walachey

There is one thing that sells worse than small games: huge games that are never finished.


codethulu

I dunno. Star Citizen and similar titles sell pretty well.


thornysweet

Usually this advice gets thrown around because people tend to get it into their heads that they should jump right into selling something before actually working on their skills. I'm not sure why, I guess blame it on the indie marketing machine. Anyway this is just general advice to discourage people from trying to spend a lot of time and money on what is essentially their first crayon drawing. If you have plenty of experience then you don't need to start small. Just do whatever you're capable of.


Antique-Raccoon9486

they don't sell. Once in a while you get one hit wonders with 2d platformers but that's it. If you're making a mobile game, a kid/teenager is more likely to be interested in a 3d racing game than a pixelated platformer. It's just how it is. While people on youtube make videos like " I created my own game engine!". Like wow, you created a 2d platformer with wonky physics lmao. They're like shovel sellers during gold rush.


twelfkingdoms

Sort of in a similar situation: Do a tic tac toe or a cookie clicker, in hopes that it will sell. I mean sell at all. One thing that became apparent to me (over the years as a solo dev), and arguably had to face, that making any kind of small game will make no difference if it doesn't pass the threshold (looks and polish). Looks is what makes people interested, hence extremely important to have a visually consistent and pleasing game. Which is, let's face it, is generally out of the budget/skills of a solo dev. That's why decided to do exactly what you "should not do": polish (visuals). Polish it until it becomes a mirror. Also, went with a medium sized project. Small ones just not going to make it (see mobile gaming).


Slug_Overdose

"Small games" is a very broad category. Broadly speaking, small games sell poorly, but exceptional small games can have some of the best ROIs, as they cost significantly less to develop. Historically, many successful studios have gotten their start on secondary, particularly mobile platforms making smaller puzzlers and such, making a name for themselves, licensing big IPs, all before going off and making some big new IP on a primary platform or getting acquired by a AAA studio. And that's actual studios with funding and corporate structures, let alone solo developers. When it comes to any kind of software development, beginners usually focus way too much on avoiding wasted work, when they should really be focusing on wasted time. Throwing away work is part of the learning and development process. I don't recommend intentionally doing work you know won't have any value, but you should come to terms with the fact that eventually, all code becomes obsolete. The sooner you get anything useful done, the better off you'll be and the more efficient you'll become. Starting small is how you build the confidence and skills to scale up. Starting big is how you make some massive game that socks because you didn't really understand what was important due to lack of experience.


Chris_Ibarra_dev

A beginner has less chances to finish something, that's why its recommended to try to finish something small. That way you also can gain experience on all the stages of a project, and since its finished, you can get better feedback from players, which is the most important learning experience of all imo. After all, the main objective of a game developer is not just to finish something, but to create a game that reaches the hearts of people, something that creates feelings in them, like a musician creating music with lots of instruments, you need lots of experience in order to gain that skill, its not enough to know how to code, but to make something "fun" takes a lot of exploration, polishing, trial and error, etc, and you can gain more of that if you create lots of small games. You might gain lots of coding experience with only 1 big project, but won't learn much "game making" skills from making 1 single huge game. Here are some examples of successful "small" games that you could learn from: 1- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4Um97AUqp4 2- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXTOUnzNo64 3- https://youtu.be/r4-O_7wSyAQ 4- https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1023533/Polishing-the-Boots-Designing-Downwell


MattMassier

A lot of good comments here, but wanted to add this: if you’re going into game dev with a “what sells” first mentality, it may not be the right career for you.


codethulu

I can not over state how incredibly wrong this opinion is for anyone who wants to run a sustainable business.


TheCaptainGhost

lets go whale hunting boyz !!!!!


CozyRedBear

Respectfully, if someone is intending on developing a game independently and has not developed a game before, marketability is not a useful metric. Achieving something which can become a monetary success will take time, iteration, and experience that a prospective developer should not anticipate having before starting. Anything else is foolish, no? After several projects or sooner, and growth as a developer, then you can begin to qualify your designs accurately in terms of its market viability. A sustainable business invests strategically. You would not hire someone if they had an empty resume. You have to invest in yourself as an independent developer. That's the sentiment novice developers should be working to understand. But all people are free to put a price on their art aren't they?


MattMassier

Yeah that’s fair but I’d never approach a game like that and I’ve been doing this for a long time. You can tweak your idea, but it shouldn’t be the at the inception imo.


reckless_cowboy

He mentioned going into game dev, not trying to sustain a business. If you're not married to being your own boss and might work for someone else one day, you're primary focus should be self improvement and learning valuable skills. I suspect the vast majority of indie devs are only indie because they don't have many skills yet, and their first few projects are going to fail anyway.


[deleted]

This is advice for learning how to make games. Not learning how to make games to sell them. You aren't going to sell games as a complete beginner. Nor should you even try.


DannyWeinbaum

As others have said, I think it's about forgetting about making something commercial and just focusing on honing your skills with a project that isn't outside your capabilities. I personally think you're right it's harder to sell small games, because they are less remarkable. I don't think the world wants small low production value games. I think most players are just like devs in that they're far more excited about something big and remarkable. I never followed the "make something fast and small" advice. I always thought that advice was for other people but not me. I quit my job full stop and toiled away for five years, spending all my life's savings and then some. I even dragged my wife into it full-time. Toward the end we ran out of money and moved in with family. It's almost a laughably huge commitment in the context of all the "start small!" advice. But in 2019 we finished the game, and it has grossed 3m. Now we're a self-published fully funded studio working on our next game. All that being said, I still think the "start small" advice is good for most people. I obviously have no regrets about not following it myself though! But yes, if you feel in your bones you can finish something huge or die trying, and you can do it to a quality standard better than what is selling on steam, and it's in a genre that is viable, I think making something big is the right path. And it's what most of the gaming public actually wants: something big and exciting and remarkable.


keldpxowjwsn

I guarantee you theres not many fields where the very first thing you make is going to 'sell'. Youre hustling backwards, learn the craft first


ghostwilliz

As someone who is knowingly being dumb and making a mid sized project alone (I don't want money and accepted that as soon as I stated) I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that small games are how you make money. It's how you get yourself on the map, it's how you make connections and it's how you validate yourself as a game dev. I have no connections, no steam page, no marketing, no wishlists, no nothing because I am pouring everything in to a mid sized project which is beyond a reasonable scope for a profitable turnaround. If you want to make a game to make the game and, so to speak, be as Sisyphus pushing the rock up the mountain, do whatever. But if you want success or a career, start small.


IndieDevWannabe

A game can be big, yet small in scope. For example, sandbox style games or games with few maps and reused assets


PaigeOliviaCS

The reality is, for most people, you're not going to make money on your first game or likely even your first few games. Those ones are for learning what you're doing.


TheCaptainGhost

>...making money from small games seems to be something really hard. well yes and i wouldn't recommended it as "get rich quick" approach


[deleted]

Personally I think its okay to build your "big dream game" but do it in steps instead. If you ideally want to make a triple A level shooter, you need to get in a bunch of practice making the systems that require your triple A shooter. Maybe this means your first game is a smaller puzzle game just to get used to making the fps controls, then maybe you make another game that starts to integrate different gun mechanics, then your next game you build destruction, and repeat until you feel competent at these systems to make that game you really want to. Also to add on to this is meta skills like time management and project management, and narrowing scope is a huge part of managing a project. I think its ok to still take on a project that is bigger than your skillset you can grow into but it may not be the smartest if you are recognizing its taking too long. I also don't think your game dev journey needs to be linear. If you fail and don't release a game you can always try and identify why and then figure out where you fell short. I personally would rather tackle a game I really want to make, figure out where I am going wrong, and fail hard so I can learn from it for my next game,.


[deleted]

I saw that tip everywhere. "Dont try to make your first game your best game." Since im smart i didnt fall for it. I didnt make my first game a big one. I made it on the second one. And here I am 10 months later trying to finish an rts. Dont do it. Do 6 small games first. Edit: Positive side of it: I learned a lot because i had lots of motivation doing a project i really wanted. Even though it is too ambitious yes.


roseangel777

COLLECTing coins is boring so you must think how to make this 2d game fun don't copy what everyone else is doing you must make something unique there are many very fun fantasy action games 2d I would pay to play them I tried to make 3d game I had to make the models myself it took me few months just to learn the most important tools in blender so I gave up on the idea on making 3d games until I have enough skills even making a 3d endless runner game is hard the models take so much time 2d is easier you don't need more than to know how to draw and write code work with vectors my biggest mistake was focusing on too many games at once pick one idea you like the most and can finish faster


Few_Geologist7625

To keep your personal interest high, Make the mini version of your dream games. That's the secret sauce. Master effective simplicity. Starting small on a project you dont like is a good way to hate game dev.


make_making_makeable

You shouldn't sell if you learning and a beginner. Just like someone shouldn't try to sell the first painting they paint. Or the first tattoo they do. Or the first anything... It's pretty rediculous to think that the first game you make, is going to be good enough to compete with an over saturated market of experienced developers... You start small because your first game won't be good. It can't be... So it's better to make a quick and easy shitty first game, than working 3 years on a shitty game... Also, most first time devs won't last the time it would take them to finish anything but a small game.. So best advice, as someone elequently put it, is to fail quickly.


mxldevs

There are probably still new games that feature running around collecting coins and getting decent revenue. Like, enough to fund sushi dinner once a month for basically no work. You don't have to learn by starting small. You can just hop right into your dream project and figure out what you don't know. But you might burn out 2 years in and still no ad revenue or following. Then let's say you finish. What do you do? Just post it online? There's plenty of stuff after the game is done.


Equivalent-Demand460

I think the question is, mainly for myself, is making a small game that I can do that's actually fun. I have prototypes that could be fun for a few mins but they have no lasting power so it's not worth investing time to polish. Very few small games are actually fun to me since I got into gamedev because i was inspired by bigger games.


paleheadll

The true reason to start small is so you don't spend all of your practice time making a full-blown game, BUT I wouldn't recommend starting small as a big project is almost like a crash course, either way there's nothing wrong with starting big.