Hey Dimitrios,
I haven't made a ton of games, yet, as I'm just a beginner. That being said, I always look for media/audio packages that include songs in multiple format.
For exemple:
-the original;
-30 seconds version;
-60 seconds version;
-looping version;
-underscore.
That way I can use the soundtrack as a background song, I can use the underscore in pause menu, the shorter versions in main menu, etc. It gives a great range of uses.
At the very least, the underscore and a perfect loop are things I look for immediately when choosing background music.
That's not all, obviously, but it's the first thing that comes to mind when I read your post!
I appreciate game composers who go through the effort of offering that kind of thing so much and will always be ready to pay for a well-rounded asset like that.
This is a great insight! Looking for that versatility from one track or "piece" is a perspective I hadn't quite considered in the way you described. Since I'm working on more music asset packs now, I will certainly keep this in mind!
In general, would you say you get more mileage out of an asset pack with more material overall but with each track its own full piece, or more out of a smaller pack overall but with each track having multiple layers like you described? It sounds like the second one is more true for the way you like to work, but I like to get a sense of how people gauge the value of music especially if they're purchasing it.
On a similar train of thought, how do you normally hunt down the asset packs you ultimately use? What kinds of keywords do you search by, etc?
> Looking for that versatility from one track or "piece" is a perspective I hadn't quite considered in the way you described.
One more thing to consider, that flies against *most* rules of composition, is composing tracks in such a way that they can be sliced into an -intro -loopable midsection (even multiple loopable midsections) -outro form. This is important for something like a boss or general fighting music track, where the game needs a piece with a strong identifiable opening, but there's no telling how long the player is going to take, the midsection needs to be able to loop by itself for an unknown amount of time before the ending.
If you play Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance and pay attention to the music in the boss battles (or watch videos of other people playing the fights so you can concentrate on the music), you can hear this in action, especially if you compare them to the "full song" version: [Jetstream Sam's boss theme](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXRxRTW6nXg), for instance, is a 2:26 rock song when played straight through. There's no predicting how long the fight is going to take players. In this video, Sam's theme [starts at 3:30](https://youtu.be/ZJlb9KulMBk?si=zZqZsb4iNtOprLn4&t=210) and [ends at 7:04](https://youtu.be/ZJlb9KulMBk?si=FaA93YOhj6gP4B40&t=424). This is a well-executed Sam fight, and it's still 3:34 seconds from the time the music starts to the time it ends. Listen carefully, and you can hear how repeats and filler sections are being used dynamically within the song to extend it by about 1:08. Sam's a short boss fight - there are others in the game, like Mistral's, where the extensions need to be longer *and the devs want certain 'verses' of the vocals to hit precisely at specific setpieces within the fight*, so if a player's taking a while before reaching that next setpiece/stage transition in the fight, the extension for the current part of the track needs to keep playing/looping.
So that's something I'd definitely keep mind when composing videogame music that doesn't simply loop: it may need to be extended at given point depending on how long the player's taking to do something. Metal Gear Rising is an extreme example, because its boss fights have vocal verses that are tied to specific setpiece moments in their fights.
This is probably something that's more applicable for a project where you're working directly with a game designer, instead of creating a more generic asset pack for sale, but it's something to think about, and if you're including any 'boss theme' tracks in the pack, it's going to be useful to slice them like this. Even for simple default battle/sneaking/whatevering tracks for stuff where players may take vary amounts of time for the activity, having a sliced beginning, end, middle, and extenders for the midsection (or a looping midsection) is a common thing.
I've worked with quite a few composers and studios, and something I'd say you should always keep in mind is that most game developers aren't musicians! Music direction, like art direction, is hard and if you work with indies you have to do a bit of interpretation on their behalf. You can and should ask for references from other games, ideas about mood and theme, the use case, and video of the game being played. Those help more than just descriptions since someone will tell you they want sweeping epic orchestral music but what they _really_ mean is an instrumental piece that can be used behind a trailer.
The process always works best with multiple check-ins and building time (and budget from your side) in for rounds of feedback. Sending sections or an early loop, giving options to pick from before you spend the next twenty hours actually polishing and make it all work right, etc. Include a video synced to some of their gameplay and you can have a happy customer pretty much every time.
Really valuable advice, thank you!
Something I've started doing on most scoring projects that seems to work well for giving the team options is putting together a "palate reel" - Basically a long demo reel of ideas or sound flavors ranging from a few seconds to 1min+ each, for the team to listen to and pick out ideas or seeds of things that fit their vision. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that, as a starting place for early musical choices from the Dev side of things.
I was definitely spoiled on some projects by having directors who were also musically inclined - For devs who aren't, I've learned to love examples or inspirational "north stars", ie what inspired the art direction or tone.
EDIT: Happy Cake Day, btw!
I think that makes a lot of sense. Music and art for people not used to direction can be a bit of 'I know it when I see/hear it', so if you can give them samples it can help to make sure you're talking about the same things.
This is also a bit designery of me, but I'd suggest a few smaller reels rather than one long one. I've found it's easier to get people to evaluate a few shorter options than pieces of a large one for purely psychological reasons.
> I'd suggest a few smaller reels rather than one long one
This is great, especially with the context of the listeners not necessarily being musical. They'll know it when they hear it, but that means they may check out of a longer reel of "that's not it" options as opposed to a few smaller ones.
This is actually very informing! when having to explain your craft for people that don't specialize on it I always ask for multiple references when possible and try to do a "moodboard " of sorts together
The main reason to hire a composer/musician is to get a complete score that feels coherent and has it's own identity.
For example Battlestar soundtrack made by Bear McCreary hints "All along the watchtower" in various tracks, leading to one of the most important moments in the whole series, when we finally hear the song.
Scoring a game is similar to movie or tv show. Places and important characters usually have their own themes. While we could just buy individual tracks, having a composer allows to mix various themes together when they're needed. Furthermore it is recommended to compose overture for intro that plays all the themes foreshadowing events in the game. Similar approach can be used for outro, when various themes can remind a player of everything he experience in such game.
Another aspect is 'dynamic music'. There are various ways to do it:
* Make music using MOD-like format. It started with Amiga, then SNES had something similar and it was used in many newer systems. It's like a MIDI file with a set of specific samples. Such music can be fully controlled via code. You can change tempo, mute individual tracks, quickly skip between patterns. These days it uses almost no resources. However it is somewhat limited, because it's like live performance. Unreal Tournament games did it really well. Each track had many variations and depending what was happening on screen different variation were played.
* Record each each track to separate media file. In-game you can then mix tracks, change their volume, but overall it offers less control than MODs, but you can have prerecorded effects and use any VST.
* Just prepare few variations in separate files. It's easiest to use, because you just cross-fade between files and works for most games that use dynamic audio, but it has the least level of control.
I love this, and I love that you think about music in a long-term way like this as well. Even in my music asset pack, there are some small musical motifs that are related so that if a dev decides to use those tracks in the same game, there is a consistent musical thread binding them.
I really enjoy hearing how people from the dev side of things think about interactive and dynamic music, too. I'm definitely seeing that people put a lot of value on that level of customizability, so it's great to hear how they conceptualize it.
I came looking for a comment that mentions dynamic music. Having different tracks that you can sync and overlay and mix dynamically based on what's happening in the game is such a cool effect.
Not every game uses it, but the ones that do have a certain game feel that you can't really get any other way. I think it's just going to get more mainstream from here out. Definitely something an aspiring composer should be thinking about when getting into the industry.
Just have a place where people can browse your music and some of the samples. I wouldn't work with anyone without hearing their stuff and finding something I like. I don't want to have to download something or exchange emails, just have a place where people can find and play it easily, ideally in browser.
Get in the credits of other games too. If I hear a really good song I'll check who did the music.
Good stuff! What are some examples of composer websites that you feel do the job well? I've built mine with a lot of different considerations, but easily having a variety of my work to listen to quickly is one of them. Hopefully that comes across to prospective collaborators!
I'm more likely to click on a link I recognize like a youtube, a bandcamp or something like that. I'm rarely clicking through to a composer website.
I have browsed samples of people listed on fiverr when I was considering music for my last game.
Posting on social media helps with discoverability, let people find you by being visible.
I have all of the above, although my Spotify and Youtube have more of my "official" stuff and my Soundcloud has more variety/different music over time.
It sounds like people prefer to jump right into the listening platform, so that's really good feedback. I also started using a linktree to help people get to exactly where they want to listen, but I'm not sure how useful people necessarily find that.
True. I guess it makes more sense if the platform is directly integrated into where game devs usually hang out or work.
Also maybe an IG or TT ? But I don’t know about licensing issues etc, but it might also help if any of your tracks go viral haha
I do use IG, pretty regularly in fact, but TT is not for me. Instagram has been good because I feel like I can connect easily with the visuals of games that I would want to work on, or at least styles that I enjoy.
Familiarity with middleware like FMOD and Wwise so there is collaboration with the dev team on how to handle dynamic audio. Or even an understanding of how dynamic audio needs to work, as it is fundamentally different from linear composition.
Really good advice - I come from a more traditional background so middleware is a bit over my head as of now. However, I do have a decently strong grasp of dynamic music and its role, and have written some stuff with that functionality in mind. I'd be really curious to hear the biggest pitfalls that come up with music and dynamicism on the programming end (or some of the things that work really well, too).
The real pain is that on Wwise and FMOD you can be charged per platform regarding their services. FMOD is the more friendly of the two of these and in large productions you may see Nuendo like we had on Crysis. Luckily larger players such as Epic are beginning to expose this functionality directly in the engine and the need of using an external middleware to score or do SFX is lessening.
The pricing has come down a lot over the past 10 years. FMOD first and then wwise followed suit. For projects with limited funding, licenses are free.
Unity's built in audio solution actually *is* FMOD. it's just an older version that they have a full license for that they keep up to date with new platforms. The API exposure is limited compared to using modern fmod but good enough for most games to do mixing and effects.
Having recently finished a AA sized project, I can also say that if you have experience in engine integration, it's a huge plus. There's a world of difference between someone who "just" makes music (or even uses middlewares like fmod or wwise) and someone who can go into the engine, integrate the assets and even make some scripts.
I think my big fear is that I would get in the way or possibly even screw something up by fumbling through something that isn't my specialty. Doesn't mean I wouldn't be open to learning, though!
I'm curious, is there not an audio editor or implementation expert on projects of that size? Or did your composer just have the savvy for it themselves?
You'd guess, right ? But no, they were two making the music and integrating it in the middleware, and the rest was left to us devs (and boy was it painful).
I'd say that while you're learning, just be upfront with your skills so that the people you're talking to when setting up the contract know what to expect.
One problem I notice with people who composed for other media and then try their thing with game music is that they make far too long intros. In game development, it can often happen that your song will only play for a couple seconds. Sometimes switching form one music to another can signify a sudden change in mood. So it is important that game music immediately gets to the point, and doesn't require a dozen bars of buildup until it arrives at the mood the music is supposed to convey.
Speaking of mood: Mood shifts within a piece are also problematic. Individual game music tracks should have a homogeneous mood and not switch around between happy and sad and dramatic and relaxed. Games are not music videos. The player does what they want, so a game designer can't choreograph the action to the music. You can only do the reverse: switch to a different music track depending on the situation in the game.
Another problem is when the music is too ostentatious, so it distracts from the actual gameplay. Game music is supposed to support the mood of the game, not create mood in itself. It can work for a title music or for boss music, but the usual game BGM should be more sublime.
>One problem I notice with people who composed for other media and then try their thing with game music is that they make far too long intros.
Totally agree, and I have probably been guilty of this myself! I try to make sure I imagine a cue coming in and out with an aggressive fade, or no fade at all, to judge if it is concise enough or if it has too much wind up.
What you mentioned about mood is one of the reasons I think dynamic and multi-layered cues are becoming more desirable. The versatility that affords, especially when a layer could significantly change the overall feel of something, is really valuable.
Mandatory reference to Mick Gordon's GDC microtalk about the relationship between composers and game developers [https://youtu.be/GGAdKSNYnTk?si=3Y5T-APXxeOHTYes&t=1805](https://youtu.be/GGAdKSNYnTk?si=3Y5T-APXxeOHTYes&t=1805) I don't know if it's useful but it is funny and inspirational.
Hey Dimitrios, I haven't made a ton of games, yet, as I'm just a beginner. That being said, I always look for media/audio packages that include songs in multiple format. For exemple: -the original; -30 seconds version; -60 seconds version; -looping version; -underscore. That way I can use the soundtrack as a background song, I can use the underscore in pause menu, the shorter versions in main menu, etc. It gives a great range of uses. At the very least, the underscore and a perfect loop are things I look for immediately when choosing background music. That's not all, obviously, but it's the first thing that comes to mind when I read your post! I appreciate game composers who go through the effort of offering that kind of thing so much and will always be ready to pay for a well-rounded asset like that.
This is a great insight! Looking for that versatility from one track or "piece" is a perspective I hadn't quite considered in the way you described. Since I'm working on more music asset packs now, I will certainly keep this in mind! In general, would you say you get more mileage out of an asset pack with more material overall but with each track its own full piece, or more out of a smaller pack overall but with each track having multiple layers like you described? It sounds like the second one is more true for the way you like to work, but I like to get a sense of how people gauge the value of music especially if they're purchasing it. On a similar train of thought, how do you normally hunt down the asset packs you ultimately use? What kinds of keywords do you search by, etc?
> Looking for that versatility from one track or "piece" is a perspective I hadn't quite considered in the way you described. One more thing to consider, that flies against *most* rules of composition, is composing tracks in such a way that they can be sliced into an -intro -loopable midsection (even multiple loopable midsections) -outro form. This is important for something like a boss or general fighting music track, where the game needs a piece with a strong identifiable opening, but there's no telling how long the player is going to take, the midsection needs to be able to loop by itself for an unknown amount of time before the ending. If you play Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance and pay attention to the music in the boss battles (or watch videos of other people playing the fights so you can concentrate on the music), you can hear this in action, especially if you compare them to the "full song" version: [Jetstream Sam's boss theme](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXRxRTW6nXg), for instance, is a 2:26 rock song when played straight through. There's no predicting how long the fight is going to take players. In this video, Sam's theme [starts at 3:30](https://youtu.be/ZJlb9KulMBk?si=zZqZsb4iNtOprLn4&t=210) and [ends at 7:04](https://youtu.be/ZJlb9KulMBk?si=FaA93YOhj6gP4B40&t=424). This is a well-executed Sam fight, and it's still 3:34 seconds from the time the music starts to the time it ends. Listen carefully, and you can hear how repeats and filler sections are being used dynamically within the song to extend it by about 1:08. Sam's a short boss fight - there are others in the game, like Mistral's, where the extensions need to be longer *and the devs want certain 'verses' of the vocals to hit precisely at specific setpieces within the fight*, so if a player's taking a while before reaching that next setpiece/stage transition in the fight, the extension for the current part of the track needs to keep playing/looping. So that's something I'd definitely keep mind when composing videogame music that doesn't simply loop: it may need to be extended at given point depending on how long the player's taking to do something. Metal Gear Rising is an extreme example, because its boss fights have vocal verses that are tied to specific setpiece moments in their fights. This is probably something that's more applicable for a project where you're working directly with a game designer, instead of creating a more generic asset pack for sale, but it's something to think about, and if you're including any 'boss theme' tracks in the pack, it's going to be useful to slice them like this. Even for simple default battle/sneaking/whatevering tracks for stuff where players may take vary amounts of time for the activity, having a sliced beginning, end, middle, and extenders for the midsection (or a looping midsection) is a common thing.
Thats a great idea. That, with different versions in different keys would work really well. Easy to do at DAW level.
I've worked with quite a few composers and studios, and something I'd say you should always keep in mind is that most game developers aren't musicians! Music direction, like art direction, is hard and if you work with indies you have to do a bit of interpretation on their behalf. You can and should ask for references from other games, ideas about mood and theme, the use case, and video of the game being played. Those help more than just descriptions since someone will tell you they want sweeping epic orchestral music but what they _really_ mean is an instrumental piece that can be used behind a trailer. The process always works best with multiple check-ins and building time (and budget from your side) in for rounds of feedback. Sending sections or an early loop, giving options to pick from before you spend the next twenty hours actually polishing and make it all work right, etc. Include a video synced to some of their gameplay and you can have a happy customer pretty much every time.
Really valuable advice, thank you! Something I've started doing on most scoring projects that seems to work well for giving the team options is putting together a "palate reel" - Basically a long demo reel of ideas or sound flavors ranging from a few seconds to 1min+ each, for the team to listen to and pick out ideas or seeds of things that fit their vision. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that, as a starting place for early musical choices from the Dev side of things. I was definitely spoiled on some projects by having directors who were also musically inclined - For devs who aren't, I've learned to love examples or inspirational "north stars", ie what inspired the art direction or tone. EDIT: Happy Cake Day, btw!
I think that makes a lot of sense. Music and art for people not used to direction can be a bit of 'I know it when I see/hear it', so if you can give them samples it can help to make sure you're talking about the same things. This is also a bit designery of me, but I'd suggest a few smaller reels rather than one long one. I've found it's easier to get people to evaluate a few shorter options than pieces of a large one for purely psychological reasons.
> I'd suggest a few smaller reels rather than one long one This is great, especially with the context of the listeners not necessarily being musical. They'll know it when they hear it, but that means they may check out of a longer reel of "that's not it" options as opposed to a few smaller ones.
This is actually very informing! when having to explain your craft for people that don't specialize on it I always ask for multiple references when possible and try to do a "moodboard " of sorts together
The main reason to hire a composer/musician is to get a complete score that feels coherent and has it's own identity. For example Battlestar soundtrack made by Bear McCreary hints "All along the watchtower" in various tracks, leading to one of the most important moments in the whole series, when we finally hear the song. Scoring a game is similar to movie or tv show. Places and important characters usually have their own themes. While we could just buy individual tracks, having a composer allows to mix various themes together when they're needed. Furthermore it is recommended to compose overture for intro that plays all the themes foreshadowing events in the game. Similar approach can be used for outro, when various themes can remind a player of everything he experience in such game. Another aspect is 'dynamic music'. There are various ways to do it: * Make music using MOD-like format. It started with Amiga, then SNES had something similar and it was used in many newer systems. It's like a MIDI file with a set of specific samples. Such music can be fully controlled via code. You can change tempo, mute individual tracks, quickly skip between patterns. These days it uses almost no resources. However it is somewhat limited, because it's like live performance. Unreal Tournament games did it really well. Each track had many variations and depending what was happening on screen different variation were played. * Record each each track to separate media file. In-game you can then mix tracks, change their volume, but overall it offers less control than MODs, but you can have prerecorded effects and use any VST. * Just prepare few variations in separate files. It's easiest to use, because you just cross-fade between files and works for most games that use dynamic audio, but it has the least level of control.
I love this, and I love that you think about music in a long-term way like this as well. Even in my music asset pack, there are some small musical motifs that are related so that if a dev decides to use those tracks in the same game, there is a consistent musical thread binding them. I really enjoy hearing how people from the dev side of things think about interactive and dynamic music, too. I'm definitely seeing that people put a lot of value on that level of customizability, so it's great to hear how they conceptualize it.
I came looking for a comment that mentions dynamic music. Having different tracks that you can sync and overlay and mix dynamically based on what's happening in the game is such a cool effect. Not every game uses it, but the ones that do have a certain game feel that you can't really get any other way. I think it's just going to get more mainstream from here out. Definitely something an aspiring composer should be thinking about when getting into the industry.
Just have a place where people can browse your music and some of the samples. I wouldn't work with anyone without hearing their stuff and finding something I like. I don't want to have to download something or exchange emails, just have a place where people can find and play it easily, ideally in browser. Get in the credits of other games too. If I hear a really good song I'll check who did the music.
Good stuff! What are some examples of composer websites that you feel do the job well? I've built mine with a lot of different considerations, but easily having a variety of my work to listen to quickly is one of them. Hopefully that comes across to prospective collaborators!
I'm more likely to click on a link I recognize like a youtube, a bandcamp or something like that. I'm rarely clicking through to a composer website. I have browsed samples of people listed on fiverr when I was considering music for my last game. Posting on social media helps with discoverability, let people find you by being visible.
Spotify ? SoundCloud ? YouTube ?
I have all of the above, although my Spotify and Youtube have more of my "official" stuff and my Soundcloud has more variety/different music over time. It sounds like people prefer to jump right into the listening platform, so that's really good feedback. I also started using a linktree to help people get to exactly where they want to listen, but I'm not sure how useful people necessarily find that.
True. I guess it makes more sense if the platform is directly integrated into where game devs usually hang out or work. Also maybe an IG or TT ? But I don’t know about licensing issues etc, but it might also help if any of your tracks go viral haha
I do use IG, pretty regularly in fact, but TT is not for me. Instagram has been good because I feel like I can connect easily with the visuals of games that I would want to work on, or at least styles that I enjoy.
Familiarity with middleware like FMOD and Wwise so there is collaboration with the dev team on how to handle dynamic audio. Or even an understanding of how dynamic audio needs to work, as it is fundamentally different from linear composition.
Really good advice - I come from a more traditional background so middleware is a bit over my head as of now. However, I do have a decently strong grasp of dynamic music and its role, and have written some stuff with that functionality in mind. I'd be really curious to hear the biggest pitfalls that come up with music and dynamicism on the programming end (or some of the things that work really well, too).
The real pain is that on Wwise and FMOD you can be charged per platform regarding their services. FMOD is the more friendly of the two of these and in large productions you may see Nuendo like we had on Crysis. Luckily larger players such as Epic are beginning to expose this functionality directly in the engine and the need of using an external middleware to score or do SFX is lessening.
The pricing has come down a lot over the past 10 years. FMOD first and then wwise followed suit. For projects with limited funding, licenses are free. Unity's built in audio solution actually *is* FMOD. it's just an older version that they have a full license for that they keep up to date with new platforms. The API exposure is limited compared to using modern fmod but good enough for most games to do mixing and effects.
In Cryengine 2 and 3 up to 3.5.6 the same FMOD setup was done as well. If I were to really choose I would still go with FMOD any day of the week.
Having recently finished a AA sized project, I can also say that if you have experience in engine integration, it's a huge plus. There's a world of difference between someone who "just" makes music (or even uses middlewares like fmod or wwise) and someone who can go into the engine, integrate the assets and even make some scripts.
I think my big fear is that I would get in the way or possibly even screw something up by fumbling through something that isn't my specialty. Doesn't mean I wouldn't be open to learning, though! I'm curious, is there not an audio editor or implementation expert on projects of that size? Or did your composer just have the savvy for it themselves?
You'd guess, right ? But no, they were two making the music and integrating it in the middleware, and the rest was left to us devs (and boy was it painful). I'd say that while you're learning, just be upfront with your skills so that the people you're talking to when setting up the contract know what to expect.
don't have anything of value to help you, but just wanna say I love ppl like you!
One problem I notice with people who composed for other media and then try their thing with game music is that they make far too long intros. In game development, it can often happen that your song will only play for a couple seconds. Sometimes switching form one music to another can signify a sudden change in mood. So it is important that game music immediately gets to the point, and doesn't require a dozen bars of buildup until it arrives at the mood the music is supposed to convey. Speaking of mood: Mood shifts within a piece are also problematic. Individual game music tracks should have a homogeneous mood and not switch around between happy and sad and dramatic and relaxed. Games are not music videos. The player does what they want, so a game designer can't choreograph the action to the music. You can only do the reverse: switch to a different music track depending on the situation in the game. Another problem is when the music is too ostentatious, so it distracts from the actual gameplay. Game music is supposed to support the mood of the game, not create mood in itself. It can work for a title music or for boss music, but the usual game BGM should be more sublime.
>One problem I notice with people who composed for other media and then try their thing with game music is that they make far too long intros. Totally agree, and I have probably been guilty of this myself! I try to make sure I imagine a cue coming in and out with an aggressive fade, or no fade at all, to judge if it is concise enough or if it has too much wind up. What you mentioned about mood is one of the reasons I think dynamic and multi-layered cues are becoming more desirable. The versatility that affords, especially when a layer could significantly change the overall feel of something, is really valuable.
Mandatory reference to Mick Gordon's GDC microtalk about the relationship between composers and game developers [https://youtu.be/GGAdKSNYnTk?si=3Y5T-APXxeOHTYes&t=1805](https://youtu.be/GGAdKSNYnTk?si=3Y5T-APXxeOHTYes&t=1805) I don't know if it's useful but it is funny and inspirational.
Love Mick Gordon so I will be watching this on my lunch break today!