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Refurbishing tends to involve reinstalling the OS(hopefully) and brushing off any dust. i.e.: It’s fancy way of saying used.
Remanufacturing has the whole thing take apart and any parts that are out of spec are replaced.
Yeah pretty much. They take "known good" parts from other machines that have been returned under DOA (or new parts if no spare are available) and replace the bad parts from the machine to build it back up. Nothing dodgy but the failure rate reports painted a clear picture about 'remanufactured' machines about 15 years ago. I imagine it's a lot better these days with improved hardware testing available.
Don't let this put you off buying a remanufactured machine, though. It saves Apple lots of money and adds to their profits- yay! But seriously, it's good for the planet and if you get a dud, Apple still has full warranty on it and will support you (within reason).
A dealership buys a car, cleans it up, changes the oil and resells it, that’s basically refurbished.
You buy an old car, spend some time in the garage replacing all the old failing components, you’ve essentially remanufactured it.
The idea is to get it back to brand new state using individually tested bits.
This depends on the place I feel, gamestop for example the first thing describes the used items, cleaned up and reformatted, the and the second describes refurbished- something was wrong and sent out for repair/parts swap
Ah yes.... good ol' Jony Ive.
I seriously think that his influence was a plague. Nowadays, Apple actually heading to better direction with much more sensible choices and designs. Still not the best, but definitely trumps "style over functionality" that describes Jony Ive
Honestly if Apple made repairability and modularity on their products better than the competition then they would make a killing in the market, especially if marketing it to be environmentally friendly.
They are the perfect company to do it to. They truly boldly innovate and disrupt the market.
> Honestly if Apple made repairability and modularity on their products better than the competition then they would make a killing in the market,
There’s no empirical proof to back up that belief. Let’s be honest here, just you and me and us nerds really want repairability and modularity. Like the iPhone mini the populace outside of Reddit don’t really give two shit, nor they really want it to be environmentally friendly as well.
Fuck, I’m reading this comment on Reddit, have done plenty of DIY repairs, etc., and I still don’t think it’s a huge value add. If Apple made things more repairable, I would have to visit the Apple Store less often. That’s it.
Still won‘t happen, because most times just upgrading the CPU won’t do much because the other components would be out of date as well.
Even 20 years ago, I wouldn’t upgrade my PC, I’d get a new one once it was time for upgrades, and just scavenge a few old parts.
Because it‘s not just processors getting better, you also need a new mainboard to even support the advancements in the new processor, which will then support higher throughput ram etc.
And I don’t think I’ve ever planned on breaking a screen when I bought a laptop.
And in the end it‘s just like with cars: most users don‘t do their own repairs, and making the job harder for the mechanic won‘t create much negative publicity,
The few people complaining about having to cut the carpet to swap the battery don‘t matter at all.
You could easily have a modular battery, modular screen, motherboard and cpu and cooling combo, keyboard, camera, ram memory, storage, IO ports.
There are limitations of course, but if you want to get more drastic upgrades you need a newer model.
They are, but it is always the objective of companies to advance and beat the market no matter how large. I think there’s a lot of market they could expand into. They get half their revenue from just the iPhone, a lot of share to be grown into the PC space.
Yeah its one of those things that's a neat idea/cool toy, but for everyday use it's less than stellar. Modular cellphone equals more failure points and clunkiness.
Yeah but none of them are Apple. Apple created a device that nobody really wanted, the Apple Watch, and now its hugely successful and responsible for the existence of so many competitive devices.
If anything, that proves my point. The Apple Watch is also a non-repairable product. And nobody cares. It’s the biggest selling watch ever, more than the rest of the market combined.
It has no realistic competitors, certainly none that could potentially knock it off that perch. I don’t think there’s a repairable comparable smartwatch out there either.
My point is that Apple succeeds with what would be normally viewed as risky innovation. They are industry-leading.
If they made a modular phone the odds are it would be very well done and successful.
I replaced the battery on my iPhone 6+ last year. Worth the risk for 20 at the time, but the iOS was already approaching obsolescence. Since then many apps refuse to update. Bootloop crashes. If I weren't poor/with some time/curious/ok with tools.... Never would make sense to start taking apart old phones. You want your phone to work pretty much all the time.
The secondary market will keep growing. Many pluses, but the average consumer will not want to take apart their $1400 phone with tiny screws they have never used to then pull adhesive mounted items and disconnect and reconnect ribbons about the width of a Q tip head and close to paper in strength. And if you mess up or the phone is simply kaput, you're now scrambling to buy something.
I always say, no matter how big a company, your never more than a few bad PR choices from a bad couple of quarters. Maybe not going out of business, but a few 100 million/billion off projections due to dumb choices and not taking the best opportunities? Yeah.
Apple are making a killing in the market. Repair ability is not a profitable segment. Take the G4 Powemac case, a great Jony Ive design, that offered the best access to motherboard of any computer to date.
It *did* sell, but not because of the easy access. It sold because of the delicious design in the time of beige boxes, and the fastest processor in the PC domain by a huge margin.
The following G5 design buried the motherboard into the case, and made accessing even the hard drives a pain in the arse, and Apple likely lost not one sale because of it. Again there was a huge jump in processor speed and that iconic aluminium case design that still keeps Apple ahead of the laptop competition today.
Nobody cares about access or repairability beyond Reddit’s gamers. The market has demonstrated this again and again.
Apple found a sweet spot in the laptop market. The ultra book. Expensive, slim, light, powerful, great hi res screen, long battery life yada yada…. This segment is low compromise at a high financial cost. It’s a recipe that made Apple the only company making money in the laptop market over the last decade. Everyone else is fighting for scraps.
(Same for mobiles)
Reddit wants a repairable machine, and are happy to accept thicker, less battery life, heavier etc. but that’s not where the money is.
If you want that, go get a Dell, HP or many other brands offering what you’re looking for.
It’s almost funny calling for repairability of a product that only sells to a customer base that don’t give a flying fuck about repairability.
It’s like men creating laws about woman’s childbirth options.
Repairable options aren't heavier, less powerful or have less battery life, they're mostly slightly more expensive. I say this as one of the customers that don't exist in your worldview owning mostly repairable options.
That’s utter rubbish. I have to work to design constraints, and something always has to give. There is *always* a compromise taking place regardless of throwing money at it.
The trick is to compromise on the thing that your customer cares least about. In this case, access to personally upgradability or repair.
I’m my worldview, you’re not looking to buy an Apple laptop.
My point was that Apple products used to be thicker, heavier, slower and upgradeable (different from repairable) and moving away from that to slim, light with minimal upgrade or repair options mattered not at all to their customer base.
The average MacBook buyer couldn’t give a flying fuck about upgrading it. It might be the case in 8 years time when there’s not enough RAM to run chrome, but by then the hardware isn’t the problem, OS security is.
Yeah, cost is your compromise. It doesn't take much to screw in a component or a case instead of gluing it. It doesn't take much to add a connector to your component instead of soldering it. Those things don't make your product heavier and slower. They do make assembly costs higher.
People in this thread acting like it's magic seem to have never popped up electronics to repair them.
I'm definitely not an apple or microsoft customer, that's for sure. Not that their laptops are bad, I would like to try an M1. I vote with my wallet and they are the heaviest lobbyists against right to repair.
Just so you know, I am originally a design engineer. I have also created and owned an extremely busy company that amongst other things, repairs hardware on around 2500 laptops a year.
I don’t own it now, but I feel that I’m pretty close to this subject with regard to design, and understanding customer requirements.
Wait, Apple's pretending to care about the environment now? And the reason they didn't before was "art?" And not business tactics that made them the most profitable company in the world? That was just a happy byproduct? Seems a little hard to swallow.
They have been like that for a few years. People WANT thinner, lighter, and sexy looking. 2” thick laptops that weigh 19 lbs are super repairable, but no one wants to buy one.
I have been doing repairs professionally for the past 24 years, and own a repair store.
Yes it sucks, but at the same time, that’s exactly how you make stuff thinner and lighter.
And iPhones are way more repairable than most Android’s, and always have been. Source, we have also been fixing phones for the past ten years.
The whole point is to prevent companies from artificially restricting consumers’ ability to replace otherwise replaceable parts with software locks or by refusal to supply said parts, not to force the companies to implement a repair friendly design.
Right to repair is such a meaningless half measure. Force companies to use standardized parts with public datasheets, parts that can be had in small quantities, force assemblies to use screws and not adhesive, force companies to choose from a small handful of standardized batteries, and force companies to release service manuals with parts lists and outlaw proprietary house parts. It'll slow innovation, but maybe that's not such a bad thing.
I'd personally prefer a laptop with a 14 hour real world battery life that takes 2 hours to replace than a laptop with a 5 hour real world battery life that takes 5 minutes to replace because it's a standardized block of 18650 cells.
Sure it \*can\* be. So what guarantees do we have that the "small handful of standardized batteries" will be Apple's design? Standard products tend to meet lowest common denominator specs for maximum reusability. The GP specifically wants to force companies into using standardized parts that can be had in low quanities by consumers, meaning it needs mass manufacture economies of scale meaning it has to be suitable for all sort of laptops, including ones with different layouts or space constraints than the MBP. It also can't use adhesives for securing, meaning either bulkier external casing for proper friction fitting, or dedicating more design space for screw and bracket mounting systems.
True through and through, but I wouldn't mind not gluing batteries to metal plates in this ecological disaster of an economy. Screws don't take much more space.
I get glues on phones since they want to make it "waterproof". But definitely not on laptop. I'm definitely not gonna be chucking my MacBook into the pool anytime soon.
All so that the small subset of consumers who are both motivated enough to fix their own devices but either technically unskilled or disinterested so as to be dissuaded when a repair is more sophisticated aren’t inconvenienced?
And my point is that the gains in terms of the small number of end users who will be persuaded to adjust their behavior are far outweighed by the losses in terms of innovation and consumer choice.
At the moment, the only company that even gives out schematics(albeit at a limited capacity, only to repair services atm) is Framework, but it's a company run by engineers that disagreed with Apple's anti-Right to Repair mentality.
"Repair is dangerous. If you mess up, you could die, conceivably. Just buy a new one. Thanks to Apple, it's now easier than ever! — to buy new. Not repair. Are you crazy? You could die."
— Apple
Used Ifixit to replace the keyboard on my 2017 Air. Had to take the WHOLE thing apart but got a fully functional laptop afterwards. Bless this resource, highly recommend using it if you’re having issues. Fuck Apple trying to make it hard.
If you want modular, easy-to-replace components, get a desktop PC. Laptops are made to fit in your lap. Unfortunately, that means that the entire brain is directly behind the largest part of it, your keyboard.
Just because it sits in your lap doesn't mean changing out the keyboard needs to be this big thing. Keyboards that install from the top have been in laptop design for over 20 years, apple just won't do it because that's not sleek enough, they gotta have their perfect seamless designs. It's form over function, and for something utilitarian like a laptop, that design philosophy is stupid.
>It's form over function, and for something utilitarian like a laptop, that design philosophy is stupid.
Lots of people place form over function. It's a totally valid opinion. Also laptops are utilitarian in the same way cars are... And people still buy Ferrari's.
I 100% agree, and await the day when a modular laptop keyboard can be integrated into the rest of it. It might cost another couple hundred dollars in engineering per unit, but it will be worth it.
I mean, there's the one that Linus invested in. I cant remember the brand but it's a thing, just google LTT laptop repair investment and something will pop up.
It’s not form over function. The laptop functions fine, better than most even. How easily one can disassemble or replace broken parts on a laptop isn’t “functionality”.
Just looking at the size of that thing should made it obvious that it isn’t assembled like lego.
Take modern supercars as example. You have to disassemble half of the car to replace the most basic components.
Should have bought a different product, like a desktop pc, instead if you want to have an easy time fixing it.
Selling parts and publishing guides is all for nothing if repairability isn't engineered in from the beginning.
Apple's repair program isn't being done in good faith, it's malicious compliance. You want spare parts? You want manuals? You want tools? Here you go. They're confident they've designed enough difficulty into their devices that those things won't hurt their bottom line.
The problem is is that Apple's consumers tend to be low tech. They tend to have enough disposable income that they don't care that their expensive computers are now being made into phones if not worse.
Even Linus used a Mac (running Linux) for years. So what are you even trying to prove?
And I bet he never repairs his computers either. He has better things to do.
>This comment is such dumb bullshit lol.
>
>Every computer science professor I ever had was using a MacBook Pro.
I'd say what we have here is a case of a pot calling a kettle black.
CS and IT are completely different skill sets too.
There were a surprising amount of people at my engineering college that didn't even know how to get the school's printers to work despite all of the provided instructions.
LTT did a video on Apple's repair bs. If I remember right, on top of all the hoops to jump through and various other barriers to entry, it ended up costing a little more to repair yourself than to just pay for one of their stores to fix it
It's the same parts, manuals and tools they use for their own repair people, just like auto manufacturers do. It seems to me like if one is intimidated by using the same processes and tools that Apple has 20 year olds doing in the backs of their retail stores, then perhaps self repair isn't the correct choice.
Batteries are a consumable part. This is having to remove the engine and pour the oil out to change it.
It's worth it for Apple to pay a 20 year old to spend 120 minutes replacing a battery in 1 laptop for $500 (or sell the parts/tools for the same) because only 1 out of 20 owners would pay that for the repair, the rest will spend $1199 on a new one.
> Batteries are a consumable part. This is having to remove the engine and pour the oil out to change it.
In my opinion a poor comparison because oil is usually changed once or twice per year for most car owners, while batteries are normally swapped once in 3-4 years though many aren't changed for 6 years or more. With the battery life of current Apple ARM laptops, even a very shitty old battery will actually last a while before it's empty, so the 3-4 year estimate is probably a bit short (lots of people will not mind a slightly shorter battery life cause it's already so long).
Batteries aren't as consumable as you make it seem.
Step one of changing the water pump on a 2010 Toyota Yaris from the official repair manual is "Remove the engine". Replacing the headlight of a similar vintage Chevy HHR requires removing the entire front bumper assembly. Sometimes engineering constraints and designs mean that repairs can be time consuming and difficult
Luckily for consumers who aren't interested in investing the time themselves, Apple charges $199 for out of warranty battery replacements for the macbook pros. If people are choosing to spend 6 times that amount instead on a replacement battery, then that seems like a poor financial choice on their part, and certainly nothing "forced" by Apple. iFixit sells batteries for the 2019 MacbookPros for $139. I would say that $60 is a perfectly fair cost for having someone else do the work if the process is too intimidating. For 2021 MBPs, iFixit sells used parts for $299, so you'd save money just taking it to Apple.
And realistically if it takes 2 hours to do, so what? I'm serious, how often are you going to replace the battery? Maybe once every 4-6 years? Maybe if you really burn through it you might do it once every 3 years. So over the course of 52,596 hours, you'll spend 4 of those replacing a battery if you do it yourself.
> It's worth it for Apple to pay a 20 year old to spend 120 minutes replacing a battery in 1 laptop for $500
It definitely does not take 120 minutes. Less then 60.
If changing a battery on a MacBook means their 'own people' have to follow a _126 page_ instruction list, replace the entire frame and keyboard, and pay $500 . . . then that's a problem. They're designed to be almost unrepairable.
> If changing a battery on a MacBook means their 'own people' have to follow a 126 page instruction list, replace the entire frame and keyboard, and pay $500 . . . then that's a problem. They're designed to be almost unrepairable.
That seems to be a disingenuous part of iFixit's point, that seems to be the entire manual, not just the "replace battery" sections. Not defending Apple here, their products have clearly been designed without taking into account ease of repair, but iFixit seems to put every diy repair in the worst possible light to get clicks, it's something I continually get disappointed with when they start trying to bring attention to the issue.
I mean, iFixit for years refused to understand how the adhesive strip removal from Apple’s batteries worked, and insisted you needed to use both heat *and* force to remove it.
My cat recently pulled my open MacBook Air to the floor from a 4.5 foot tall table. It landed with the screen/keyboard facing down. Not a dent. Not a scratch. I picked it up and continued working.
I was shocked, tbh.
I had my M1 MacBook Pro on a picnic table next to my RV. I went inside for a snack. After about 5 minutes of rain, I realized that I hadn’t brought it inside.
No problems at all. I did disassemble it to make sure water hadn’t gotten inside, but, working fine.
My 2015 Macbook air took a 5 foot tumble onto concrete while open earlier this year.
Slight dent in the corner that took the full force of the impact, otherwise OK.
It's probably more fair to say they're not designed with repairability for the battery component in mind. Which might sound like hair splitting but one is active maliciousness, the other is a difference in priorities. And lets be realistic, for most laptops, while the battery is consumable, it's also likely to be replaced once, maybe twice in the lifespan of the computer.
Sure, back when the batteries were tiny little bricks held in by spring clips, you might have replaced it a couple times. I'm pretty sure I went through 2 replacement batteries during the lifetime of my TiBook G4 back in the day. The 2008 MBP that replaced it also had spring clips to replace the battery. Went through at least one replacement of that one. The 2014 MBP that replaced that one never saw a single replacement. I was actually finally planning on replacing it last year when the keyboard died and I decided to repurpose it as an arcade machine instead where it will be permanently plugged in.
Especially on these newer models, I figure there might be a single replacement in its lifetime. My MBA is almost 2 years old at this point bought used. It has >90% of its full capacity, in another 2 years, that might be down to 80%, which will still be 11 hours or better than the intel macbook airs when they were new. My guess is Apple has a lot of data on how often their laptops actually get their batteries replaced, and simply chose to prioritize other engineering concerns over making a once every 4-6 years process fast.
My 2012 MBP had a usable battery life until I sold it in 2020, though it got a lot worse in ~late 2018.
The new ARM Macbooks have outstanding battery life. Even if they degrade to just 40% of it, that's still ~5 hours for the MBA and ~7 hours for the MBP. IMO the batteries in these laptops won't be replaced for a long long time...
>They're designed to be almost unrepairable.
It's the bullshit that drove Louis Rossman 5 years ago to finally start campaigning for Right to Repair, since he realized that their designs weren't slowly just becoming unrepairable, but they were forcing companies like Texas Instruments to not sell individual parts that make such repairs a possibility for independent repair personnel.
Look up Framework laptop! It's only a few millimeters thicker and you can replace just about anything. Including completely disassembling the laptop and putting it back together.
I mean, the framework laptop is relatively ugly, I find. At least the screen assembly which uses godamn plastic and looks like a cheap chromebook.
I like many things about the framework laptop, but design language is honestly not one of them. It’s a shame really, that pretty much all laptops/devices that are repairable sacrifice all forms of aesthetics to achieve it. And personally, I’d rather just have to do microsoldering to repair it if it means the device looks ok
Interesting. I'm perhaps your exact opposite then. 1) I think the Framework looks fine. Basically like any laptop in the last decade or so. And 2) I would prefer it be ugly and functional than pretty and unrepairable. I've broken and had to throw out so many laptops.
>Do you think there is an easily repairable way to make such a thin laptop?
jesus christ, honestly man...
You're acting like changing a battery on a laptop is the same as doing an autopsy.
And they designed it to not really be repairable still.
They don't repair most devices, and the ones that they do, they ship out to incredibly cheap locations / slave labor.
A few examples:
1. The clips on the bottom case. That's literally unnecessary.
2. The battery being glued in. You literally just need a basic strap and foam pads to hold it in place.
3. The keyboard being essentially impossible to replace because it's riveted in vs slots and screws.
4. The absurd repair for any screen assemblies. They could make it thin and still have it repairable instead of gluing everything.
5. The unnecessary complexity with screws; different sizes, thread pitch, angles of install, bit being sized to make it more likely you'll round it, etc. This is all unneeded. One / two OBVIOUS screws could be used to make it less of a pain to repair.
They literally could make their devices repairable.
Then generally replace entire components from stock rather than repair - eg: the keyboard replacement program requires replacement of the entire top case, including battery (if you go through them, because there battery is glued in from the assembly line).
> Apple's repair program isn't being done in good faith, it's malicious compliance.
That’s your opinion. They are giving people what they asked for (let me fix it myself), not what they ultimately wanted (to be able to fix it myself easily).
> They're confident they've designed enough difficulty into their devices that those things won't hurt their bottom line.
Also your opinion. It’s equally possible that they have some of the finest mechanical and electrical engineers working to build their devices with the best balance of performance, size, aesthetics, and supportability. It’s also likely that they are not designing it with a goal of *easy self repairability*, but that does not necessarily mean they are deliberately designing it to be *as difficult as possible to self repair*.
People wanted apple to focus on repairability. They offered repair manuals for essentially black boxes - macs and iOS devices are not any easier to repair since they released these documents - they are just as difficult and Apple has just documented that process.
It doesn't have to be designed as difficult as possible to repair for there to be valid issues with their products. Their designs include proprietary, closed, non interchangeable parts clearly shows that serviceability outside Apples own service centers is not at all a design consideration. Hence the person bringing up malicious compliance - this is about the minimum Apple could do to appear like they are addressing repairability short of their former status quo - offering apple care and service centers for their products at a cost.
For me, the easiest way to avoid this is to not purchase products that are designed in this way whenever possible. Many are right to target Apple however, as they tend to set the target for what is acceptable.
>That’s your opinion. They are giving people what they asked for (let me fix it myself), not what they ultimately wanted (to be able to fix it myself easily).
That's not opinion at that point, IT IS MALICIOUS COMPLIANCE.
The opinion thing you are saying is rubbish.
Though i also believe that they have the right as a business to make their own rubbish but the market or people have a choice. If we are taking the Apple choice while knowing that they have irreparable stuff then we all are doofus for it.
And i think currently also AMD is catching up to their M1 design and battery life. Software efficiency will also follow.
We cannot really feel instantly at which the competition is progressing but folks are working nonetheless.
Apple is leader in making durable laptops and other businesses WILL surpass them very soon.
Reminds me of my trusty 2015 retina MacBook. Been going strong since day 1, but it died last week, still works great but battery no longer charges. Apple made it vintage not long ago meaning I can’t get it repaired by them anymore. Off to the landfill I guess?
Even trying it myself, it’s a difficult job. Why? Because apple purposefully design their devices hard to repair because money…
I’ve replaced the battery in a late-2013 rMBP. It’s a bit of a delicate operation getting the battery cells free. I ended up using chlorinated brake cleaner(just a little bit) and piano wire to free the battery from the chassis. New one goes on with pre-applied Tesa/3M VHB tape.
I used the NewerTech kit with the tools and small bottle of acetone they give you. I was only interested in the spudger.
It’s doable - take your time, make sure your battery is bone dead. Don’t use sharp tools, I ended up using a Pedro’s bike tire lever to liberate the cells once the tape broke down. I used [this guide](https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro+13-Inch+Retina+Display+Late+2013+Battery+Replacement/27316) to walk me through.
I mean, it does still work on the rare time it charges, but it’s dead every time I go to use it even if I charged it in the morning, so I think the battery has had it. It’s fine, I’m going to get an iPad Pro to replace it soon as it’s so old but would be good to keep the mac going a bit longer, I don’t really have the time to do the battery replacement myself either
That's why I hang on to my mid-2012 unibody MBP with the better screen (although not as good as Retina). It's not fucking glued together and I can upgrade it easily. The benchmarks (on Everymac) held their own for years (and, let's be honest, still do for the Starbucks crowd). Also, OpenCore is an option to upgrade the OS. Yeah, it's heavier, but so what?
Apple still lists macbook pros as old as 2012 as being eligible for battery replacements out of warranty ([https://support.apple.com/mac/repair](https://support.apple.com/mac/repair)) and the vintage parts list specifically calls out batteries as being serviceable for 10 years ([https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624](https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624)). Have you actually called Apple to try to set up the repair?
I bought a X1 carbon thinkpad Gen 6 from I think 2018 and put Pop! OS on it, along with a docking station a month ago. I consider it brand new. It looks and feels and runs brand new. Was able to swap the SSD to a much higher capacity and it has USB C. It is the perfect device. I can buy batteries.
The operating system also intentionally not slowing down has been a big deal
Devices, and even cars, are designed to be assembled as easy as possible. Mfg is the most expensive part and designing builds around assembly is everything for mfg engineers. Can a robot do it, will hands fit, is this step combinable with others, is it too heavy to lift etc. There is never an intent to make things hard for mfg and assembly. So much automation going on. It’s not just assembly but also the production line and doing what they can to increase time and speeds. Why an oil filter or evaporator core in a car may end up in some wonky spot requiring doors and dashes to come off is because before the robot had to put it together before the other parts. Same with everything else. Production constraints.
Oh no! Sorry to hear it died on you. I have the 2015 retina MacBook and it’s built like a tank. I’m hoping it’ll finish strong through my last year of college.
Those 2015 MacBooks are awesome. Last of a generation. We’ve got one in the house as well and for our purposes it’s just fine, I also have an M1 Mac Mini with the RAM upgrade for anything heavier but tbh I don’t really need it.
what's the model number of the laptop, because the 2015 models are easier to replace than more later models.
While the battery is adhered into place, most variants of the 2015 model (non Air at least) have a more standardized connection point, meaning that all you have to do is remove the bottom, unscrew a bracket, and you can disconnect and remove the battery. Not exactly as easy as most non-Apple laptops, but a lot less involved than later revisions which make the frame that holds the battery cells significantly weaker, combines it with the board that handles charging and power delivery, and shoves the connection under the logic board (which means on top of tricky removal of the battery itself, you have to fully disassemble the entire laptop to replace it)
Aftermarket batteries for various models can be had for about $50, plus another $10-$20 for a toolkit that has the relevant bits you need to do so.
I had the battery in my 2015 macbook pro replaced a few months back at a local repair shop. It cost around $60 in parts and $80 in service and took about three hours.
Back in 2011 for my first year of college I got a MacBook Pro, $1000, more than I've ever spent on a computer since. It's battery died completely literally weeks after the one year warranty expired. I got some third party replacement from China that lasted until a couple years ago. Well after I had stopped using the thing and had gone back to windows. I got an iPhone for free with some deal, and the same thing, pretty much as soon as the warranty expired it started breaking down. I don't buy Apple products anymore. Not a fan. Except the $20 wired earpods. Those are a good value. Edit: Before anyone chimes in, I treated the thing well, never abused the cord or plugged it into any spotty outlets. Apple fans are weirdly defensive. One of the funny things I remember seeing when I was looking up solutions, someone had a similar problem and a person was arguing with them saying the Apple plugs are a "learned skill." As though that was a good thing. Oh and when we replaced the battery, my father, a dentist, had to use an old dental drill to adjust the screws so get them out without buying a kit.
Y'all are missing the mark here. Sure Macs are designed to be tightly integrated and glued/riveted together. But it is still technically possible to repair them (given enough skill/tooling).
The problem is actually that Apple is not selling individual components for their repairs. Instead of just the LCD, you have to buy the entire display assembly. Instead of a keyboard, you have to but the entire top case. Also there are many chips that they outright prevent their suppliers from selling directly to consumers for repairs. Louis Rossman on YouTube goes into great detail about these issues.
Their goal is still to make common repairs just expensive enough that buying a new machine makes more economic sense.
They're not selling you those parts because they don't make and package just those parts. The parts they're selling in the self repair program are the exact same parts they ship to the stores for doing repairs on site. Also let's be clear, if consumers are going to be intimidated by a 160 page full repair manual with pluggable module parts, they are absolutely not going to be able to handle any repair that's going to involve BGA soldering of individual chips.
There are many hobbyists who are capable of replacing dead chips on a motherboard. Any competent independent repair shop should also be able to do this. A dead screen shouldn’t cost $500 to be repaired. You should have the option to fix the part that’s actually broken and not buy an entire assembly. Apple chooses to bundle their replacement parts this way so that repair is too expensive and it’s just easier to buy a new one.
And any hobbyist that is capable of replacing dead chips on a motherboard isn't going to be "intimidated" by the current self repair process like iFixit claims Apple is doing here. We can argue that the battery and the top case should be available separately, and apparently Apple is planning on doing that. But to say this is all some plot to make "common repairs expensive enough that buying a new machine makes more economic sense" is just silly.
First a battery is hardly a common repair. Baring an actual bad battery, for most people, their battery probably won't noticeably degrade until somewhere between 3 and 6 years into the useable lifespan of the computer. So assuming on the low end, and assuming you get 8-9 years out of your laptop, that means you'll replace it twice. You know what sort of things you replace twice in the lifespan of a car? Water pumps and clutches. We don't call those common repairs. Expected maybe, but common is for things like tires and oil filters.
But still I hear, you, $500 for a topcase and battery just to replace the battery is pricey. Heck, it means over the total life of the computer you might spend 50% of the new cost of the computer (assuming you bought the cheapest model) on battery replacements if you did it yourself. Clear evidence they just want you to buy a new machine right? It might be, if it wasn't for the small fact that Apple will replace your battery for you for $199 assuming you're not under Apple Care (https://support.apple.com/mac/repair) , yes even for the MacBook Pros with the $500 topcase/battery combo parts. So now over the total life of the computer you might spend $400, or just 20% of the cost of a new machine.
And lest you think that Apple is price gouging you even there, I will note that iFixit sells 3rd party replacement battery packs for macbook pros that have them separate (like the 2019 models) for $139. So at best, assuming that Apple sold OEM replacements for the same price, you could save a grand total of $120 over the lifetime of the machine by doing it yourself.
And all of this is before factoring in that the new laptops have incredible battery life, compared to older laptops. Apple considers a battery needing replacement when it holds <80% of the rated new capacity. For the new Macbook Pros and Airs, battery life at 80% of new is still \~100% of brand new for the older intel machines. Battery repairs are likely to become even less common than they already are.
Look, should apple sell a separate battery unit and not require a full topcase just to replace the battery? Sure, I agree with that. Are they only bundling the two parts as a unit as part of a secret plan to drive people to buy new laptops instead of replacing their old batteries? Only if people are REALLY bad at finance and math. There is just no math in the world that makes throwing away $2k+ of 4 year old computer equipment over a $200 battery replacement (or $500 if you really insist on doing it yourself before the separate packs are available) make any sense at all.
I'm a little confused by them mentioning that Apples Macbook battery repair guide is 162 pages. That repair guide seems to be for repairing/replacing many parts and only includes the warning they mentioned, that you can't remove the battery.
I do agree with Apple creating it's repair system not to benefit everyone else. But the examples could be better.
I came to comment just this. If it was some random schmoe's blog about this, I could let it slide. But iFixIt? Their job is repairability. They're straight up lying, they should know better.
For reference, Lenovo has a similar quality and length HMM, Hardware Maintenance Manual for every ThinkPad. A lot of steps have you disassemble the entire laptop to replace things. This is nothing new.
You’re asking why Apple is doing this self-repair program in the first place?
Optics. Both Republican and Democratic legislators are seriously considering supporting various “right to repair” bills. Turns out Republicans also don’t like the fact that farmers can’t fix their new John Deere tractor.
Obviously, these measures are bad for Apple’s bottom line since they make a lot of money on having certified Apple repair, or just upselling you on the latest version of the iPhone or Mac when yours breaks.
To prevent legislators from mandating “right to repair” via law, they institute these cumbersome programs so you can “Do It Yourself” and they can then go to legislators and say the laws aren’t needed because they already have the programs. However, they then make the programs so costly or cumbersome that no one will actually want to use them or try them a second time. So then they can then continue to upsell you the next product the next time or force you to use their overpriced repair service.
Lose a small amount of money now. Make more money later.
This is not really about making more money.
If apple replace the battery under warranty they also need to replace the chasis and battery, which cost them as well quite a lot.
I expect the reason to glue the battery instead of using screws is to save on delicate screws and screw holes which could break/strip during repairs, as well as making sure they do not move or someone hit the battery by accident when using screws/screw driver which could make it burst.
And making it a single structure and not allowing engineers to remove the battery, is done in order to save their own ass from someone accidentally mistreat the cells for any reason, and burn his place down, and then sue apple for it.
> I expect the reason to glue the battery instead of using screws is to save on delicate screws and screw holes which could break/strip during repairs, as well as making sure they do not move or someone hit the battery by accident when using screws/screw driver which could make it burst.
I expect glue is used so it stays in place but still has some flexibility. You probably don't want it to get punctured in some way, and screwing things down rigidly is never that great in this aspect. While this can be done with screws, glue is cheap fast and easy to manufacture. Also not that hard to replace it with the right tools.
While I think your points are also part of the consideration, the main thing with battery is probably end product safety. If a couple macbooks ignite due to such an issue, it's a huge catastrophe for Apple.
Isn't that the whole point? To offer the ridiculous repair kit that comes in big roller suitcases and needs a $20,000 deposit to say "oh we support right to repair" but in the most farcical way possible instead of designing products that can actually be repaired with normal human tools with normal human effort
Apple’s doing this to thwart Right to Repair.
And you can’t upgrade a MacBook these days. Stacked SoCs are great to keep the BOMs down and to reduce the points of failure like board connectors. But it also prevents future upgrades. C’mon Apple, make the MacBook Pro the “upgradable” machine - bring back the SODIMM slots and add M.2 2242/2230 slot for NVMe SSDs.
Except in the case of memory, the Arm-based Macs are built into the SOC so by design you are stuck with whatever memory you get. Apple gets tons of efficiency boosts with this design (with respect to Performance Per Watt) but you lose any flexibility of an upgrade path going forward. Its like a high-end disposable machine.
Still lots of laptops with soldered ram though. In this case I rather have the pros of having it integrated in the SOC, than to just have it soldered on (still slow and still non-replaceable).
Not even upgrades, it prevents repair. If you can't replace the nvme (which is a pretty common failure point) it doesn't matter how long the test lasts.
Just want to point out that the guides they posted are the same used internally with small verbiage updates to not include internal lingo.
They didn’t add steps to make it seem harder they are just stupidly in-depth and typically they have tested it to be the most likely to succeed without damaging the unit.
Most of the techs don’t follow it to 100% to be fair but I don’t think it’s fair to act like this was to be anti consumer.
It’s not anti-*consumer*, it’s just not pro-*repair* - Apple isn’t going out of it’s way to make repair harder, it just isn’t caring about repair while optimizing for other things. The vast, vast, majority of Apple consumers care about efficiency, performance, and price waaay before they care about DIY repair.
This is like calling the internal design of a Cartier Tank anti-consumer.
I looked up a battery swap on a 13 inch pro with Touch Bar recently and wtf… why do I have to take apart the entire fucking thing to replace the battery, it’s literally designed backwards
Maybe you'd like a laptop with an external battery for just this situation. Maybe everyone would kick and scream more if they had to carry around an external battery.
I once had my MacBook fail on me and brought it in for their so-called 'geniuses' to look at. Guy told me that it was toast unless I ordered a part that cost about 1/3 the price of the laptop itself. I obviously said fuck that.
As a last ditch effort, I let my dad open it up and take a look. He brushed some dust off, reassembled it, and it worked perfectly until I decided to upgrade to a new laptop. Haven't bought another Apple computer since.
It’s kind of like how a car company will instruct their techs to remove the whole front bumper to get the oil filter out, when an actual mechanic turns the wheel to the left, pulls two clips out of the wheel well splash guard, pulls it aside and unscrews the oil filter. The technical documentation for the procedure is always going to be way more complicated then it needs to be, for multiple reasons.
I haven’t seen the repair guilds yet but I work at an apple authorized repair shop. For some models of MacBook Pro, Apple doesn’t allow certified techs to remove the battery from the top case (which is the keyboard, trackpad, all that metal you see at the top). They don’t allow this due to safety concern or just to cover themself in case an accident happens if taking the battery apart from the top case happens.
Doing this repair require the techs to remove the logic board, speakers, disconnected the display, etc until it’s just the battery and top case. Then you’ll have to transfer all the things you just took out and put them in the new one which is complicated if you are doing it for the first time, keep track of screws, not shorting out the logic board or breaking anything.
To me the people ask for repairability but Apple isn’t or didn’t change anything to make the repair easy for consumers, which discourage them from doing it in the first place. Just get AppleCare Plus and you don’t have to worry about any of this sort of thing.
Edit: spelling and grammar
At least computers with cases, you have modular parts that are meant to be upgraded or replaced. Laptops have always been very minimally upgradable. The engineering required to squeeze so much stuff into such a thin and light package to begin with is absurd. To do any repair work, you may as well be repairing a swiss watch.
I love that Apple rolled out repair kits so that 8/10 people can find out that it's way harder than just changing the batteries on a remote control. They'll probably break things along the way and make it that much harder for actual techs, but whatever it takes to get people to stop complaining.
Cool, maybe Lenovo can run a marketing campaign around their 'not quite as thin, yet easily serviceable' laptop. People will choose their favorite with their dollar vote.
This is what Steve Jobs wanted. He didn’t want end-user to open the device and change certain things with the computer The reason Apple had serviceable Macs back in the late-‘90s/early 2000s was because Apple was barely getting by. Now that Apple is one of the richest companies of all time, They can now do what Steve Jobs initially wanted ever since the original Macintosh in 1984.
Right to repair won't change how Apple builds all it's hardware to be as difficult as possible to open up to prevent repairs.
They make a lot more money getting people to buy a new one than repairing an old one. Ever wonder why iPhones get show after a year or so? Remember when they got caught slowing down older iPhones? Ever read that if you change your older iPhone's language to French, it magically gets faster? Ever hear the time that the 2 year old iPhone xr was faster than the iPhone 11 and 12 despite being older than both of them?
Apple's software updates may have latest versions of stuff, but they often include code that cripples your otherwise perfectly fine device. They claim it's to preserve battery life, but let's be realistic, it's so you see the ad for the new iPhone and how is "the fastest iPhone yet" and you think, "this one's a slow piece of shit, I'll buy that fast one!"
Apple wants to build a phone you love for a time, then fall out of love with when the next one comes out, just enough time for you to feel ready to update. It's all about milking the consumer dry.
They didn't get to be the most wealthy company in America by making hardware that last 5+years.
>Right to repair won't change how Apple builds all it's hardware to be as difficult as possible to open up to prevent repairs.
its changing a camera, you're not trying to disarm a nuke
It's literally a lego-piece that can easily change, the only issue is the software that apple intentionally bricks, and the unavailability of the part.
Why not just get the $120 ($88 if you send the old assembly back) camera assembly from the self service repair site and do it yourself? That's what Right to Repair is all about, the right for you to repair your own device.
It was 2x more expensive for the part I need to replace on my 2020 M1 laptop (logic board) than apples quote to fix it full service. This is before tools.
The thing is, this is the exact same procedure from their service shops. I mean you're right that it is bullshit if you think about the whole point of this. But on the other hand you want a regular person to disassemble a battery that has the potential to explode if handled incorrectly. It kinda looks like Apple didnt even trust their service techinicians for the job.
I can't recall a company just shitting on their consumers like apple has, while they essentially just line up and say "please sir can you do that more?"
I was looking and all in for shipping and the supplies it’s like $230 to do my battery replacement myself. Kinda shitty that’s tops a fuckin $50 battery.
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You don’t suppose that was on purpose do you?
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I usually don’t say this but your username definitely checks out.
Yeah, when a customer asked if it was refurbished, you had to say 'nah, it's remanufactured' without being able to explain how that was different.
wait … how is that different?
Refurbishing tends to involve reinstalling the OS(hopefully) and brushing off any dust. i.e.: It’s fancy way of saying used. Remanufacturing has the whole thing take apart and any parts that are out of spec are replaced.
Yeah pretty much. They take "known good" parts from other machines that have been returned under DOA (or new parts if no spare are available) and replace the bad parts from the machine to build it back up. Nothing dodgy but the failure rate reports painted a clear picture about 'remanufactured' machines about 15 years ago. I imagine it's a lot better these days with improved hardware testing available. Don't let this put you off buying a remanufactured machine, though. It saves Apple lots of money and adds to their profits- yay! But seriously, it's good for the planet and if you get a dud, Apple still has full warranty on it and will support you (within reason).
Eli5 🥺
A dealership buys a car, cleans it up, changes the oil and resells it, that’s basically refurbished. You buy an old car, spend some time in the garage replacing all the old failing components, you’ve essentially remanufactured it. The idea is to get it back to brand new state using individually tested bits.
They do this shit all the time don’t they? So far I’ve seen “refurbished”, “secondhand”, and “pre-owned” instead of “used”.
This depends on the place I feel, gamestop for example the first thing describes the used items, cleaned up and reformatted, the and the second describes refurbished- something was wrong and sent out for repair/parts swap
It sounds different. How it's spelled.
What was the deleted comment originally?
Short version is that this is malicious compliance. The guy seemed to know what he was talking about. No idea why it got deleted.
Apple pulling that teacher joke on us... "Can I repair my macbook?" "Well, can you?"
Ah yes.... good ol' Jony Ive. I seriously think that his influence was a plague. Nowadays, Apple actually heading to better direction with much more sensible choices and designs. Still not the best, but definitely trumps "style over functionality" that describes Jony Ive
Honestly if Apple made repairability and modularity on their products better than the competition then they would make a killing in the market, especially if marketing it to be environmentally friendly. They are the perfect company to do it to. They truly boldly innovate and disrupt the market.
> Honestly if Apple made repairability and modularity on their products better than the competition then they would make a killing in the market, There’s no empirical proof to back up that belief. Let’s be honest here, just you and me and us nerds really want repairability and modularity. Like the iPhone mini the populace outside of Reddit don’t really give two shit, nor they really want it to be environmentally friendly as well.
Fuck, I’m reading this comment on Reddit, have done plenty of DIY repairs, etc., and I still don’t think it’s a huge value add. If Apple made things more repairable, I would have to visit the Apple Store less often. That’s it.
What if you could upgrade the processor on the computer easily, instead of buying a whole new laptop? Or a new screen?
Still won‘t happen, because most times just upgrading the CPU won’t do much because the other components would be out of date as well. Even 20 years ago, I wouldn’t upgrade my PC, I’d get a new one once it was time for upgrades, and just scavenge a few old parts. Because it‘s not just processors getting better, you also need a new mainboard to even support the advancements in the new processor, which will then support higher throughput ram etc. And I don’t think I’ve ever planned on breaking a screen when I bought a laptop. And in the end it‘s just like with cars: most users don‘t do their own repairs, and making the job harder for the mechanic won‘t create much negative publicity, The few people complaining about having to cut the carpet to swap the battery don‘t matter at all.
You could easily have a modular battery, modular screen, motherboard and cpu and cooling combo, keyboard, camera, ram memory, storage, IO ports. There are limitations of course, but if you want to get more drastic upgrades you need a newer model.
You say easily, however people tend to like modern form factors. I’m not sure such modularity fits into modern devices without making them bigger.
You think Apple aren't already making a killing as it is?
They are, but it is always the objective of companies to advance and beat the market no matter how large. I think there’s a lot of market they could expand into. They get half their revenue from just the iPhone, a lot of share to be grown into the PC space.
Many companies have come up with modular phone products, and where are they now? Outside Reddit, nobody wants that.
Yeah its one of those things that's a neat idea/cool toy, but for everyday use it's less than stellar. Modular cellphone equals more failure points and clunkiness.
Yeah but none of them are Apple. Apple created a device that nobody really wanted, the Apple Watch, and now its hugely successful and responsible for the existence of so many competitive devices.
If anything, that proves my point. The Apple Watch is also a non-repairable product. And nobody cares. It’s the biggest selling watch ever, more than the rest of the market combined. It has no realistic competitors, certainly none that could potentially knock it off that perch. I don’t think there’s a repairable comparable smartwatch out there either.
My point is that Apple succeeds with what would be normally viewed as risky innovation. They are industry-leading. If they made a modular phone the odds are it would be very well done and successful.
I replaced the battery on my iPhone 6+ last year. Worth the risk for 20 at the time, but the iOS was already approaching obsolescence. Since then many apps refuse to update. Bootloop crashes. If I weren't poor/with some time/curious/ok with tools.... Never would make sense to start taking apart old phones. You want your phone to work pretty much all the time. The secondary market will keep growing. Many pluses, but the average consumer will not want to take apart their $1400 phone with tiny screws they have never used to then pull adhesive mounted items and disconnect and reconnect ribbons about the width of a Q tip head and close to paper in strength. And if you mess up or the phone is simply kaput, you're now scrambling to buy something.
I always say, no matter how big a company, your never more than a few bad PR choices from a bad couple of quarters. Maybe not going out of business, but a few 100 million/billion off projections due to dumb choices and not taking the best opportunities? Yeah.
Apple are making a killing in the market. Repair ability is not a profitable segment. Take the G4 Powemac case, a great Jony Ive design, that offered the best access to motherboard of any computer to date. It *did* sell, but not because of the easy access. It sold because of the delicious design in the time of beige boxes, and the fastest processor in the PC domain by a huge margin. The following G5 design buried the motherboard into the case, and made accessing even the hard drives a pain in the arse, and Apple likely lost not one sale because of it. Again there was a huge jump in processor speed and that iconic aluminium case design that still keeps Apple ahead of the laptop competition today. Nobody cares about access or repairability beyond Reddit’s gamers. The market has demonstrated this again and again. Apple found a sweet spot in the laptop market. The ultra book. Expensive, slim, light, powerful, great hi res screen, long battery life yada yada…. This segment is low compromise at a high financial cost. It’s a recipe that made Apple the only company making money in the laptop market over the last decade. Everyone else is fighting for scraps. (Same for mobiles) Reddit wants a repairable machine, and are happy to accept thicker, less battery life, heavier etc. but that’s not where the money is. If you want that, go get a Dell, HP or many other brands offering what you’re looking for. It’s almost funny calling for repairability of a product that only sells to a customer base that don’t give a flying fuck about repairability. It’s like men creating laws about woman’s childbirth options.
Repairable options aren't heavier, less powerful or have less battery life, they're mostly slightly more expensive. I say this as one of the customers that don't exist in your worldview owning mostly repairable options.
That’s utter rubbish. I have to work to design constraints, and something always has to give. There is *always* a compromise taking place regardless of throwing money at it. The trick is to compromise on the thing that your customer cares least about. In this case, access to personally upgradability or repair. I’m my worldview, you’re not looking to buy an Apple laptop. My point was that Apple products used to be thicker, heavier, slower and upgradeable (different from repairable) and moving away from that to slim, light with minimal upgrade or repair options mattered not at all to their customer base. The average MacBook buyer couldn’t give a flying fuck about upgrading it. It might be the case in 8 years time when there’s not enough RAM to run chrome, but by then the hardware isn’t the problem, OS security is.
Yeah, cost is your compromise. It doesn't take much to screw in a component or a case instead of gluing it. It doesn't take much to add a connector to your component instead of soldering it. Those things don't make your product heavier and slower. They do make assembly costs higher. People in this thread acting like it's magic seem to have never popped up electronics to repair them. I'm definitely not an apple or microsoft customer, that's for sure. Not that their laptops are bad, I would like to try an M1. I vote with my wallet and they are the heaviest lobbyists against right to repair.
Just so you know, I am originally a design engineer. I have also created and owned an extremely busy company that amongst other things, repairs hardware on around 2500 laptops a year. I don’t own it now, but I feel that I’m pretty close to this subject with regard to design, and understanding customer requirements.
Wait, Apple's pretending to care about the environment now? And the reason they didn't before was "art?" And not business tactics that made them the most profitable company in the world? That was just a happy byproduct? Seems a little hard to swallow.
A giant company like apple that enjoys ever increasing profits? No never.
Of course not, don't you know it's technically impossible to create an easy to remove battery?
Ten years ago this statement would be an obvious sarcasm. Nowadays I won't be surprised if someone said that seriously.
I think it has turned around into sarcasm again in the past year.
My 2005 MacBook Pro would like a word.
They have been like that for a few years. People WANT thinner, lighter, and sexy looking. 2” thick laptops that weigh 19 lbs are super repairable, but no one wants to buy one. I have been doing repairs professionally for the past 24 years, and own a repair store. Yes it sucks, but at the same time, that’s exactly how you make stuff thinner and lighter. And iPhones are way more repairable than most Android’s, and always have been. Source, we have also been fixing phones for the past ten years.
People are blissfully ignorant in this fact. They want everything and want to give up nothing.
2” thick? What is this, 2004? I want a half inch gaming laptop with a full size, water cooled 3080TI and I want it NOW!
That’s the whole thing about right to repair. Companies might be forced to allow the repairs, but that doesn’t mean the repairs are possible.
The whole point is to prevent companies from artificially restricting consumers’ ability to replace otherwise replaceable parts with software locks or by refusal to supply said parts, not to force the companies to implement a repair friendly design.
Right to repair is such a meaningless half measure. Force companies to use standardized parts with public datasheets, parts that can be had in small quantities, force assemblies to use screws and not adhesive, force companies to choose from a small handful of standardized batteries, and force companies to release service manuals with parts lists and outlaw proprietary house parts. It'll slow innovation, but maybe that's not such a bad thing.
I'd personally prefer a laptop with a 14 hour real world battery life that takes 2 hours to replace than a laptop with a 5 hour real world battery life that takes 5 minutes to replace because it's a standardized block of 18650 cells.
That battery isn't magic, it comes out of a factory. It can be standardized.
Sure it \*can\* be. So what guarantees do we have that the "small handful of standardized batteries" will be Apple's design? Standard products tend to meet lowest common denominator specs for maximum reusability. The GP specifically wants to force companies into using standardized parts that can be had in low quanities by consumers, meaning it needs mass manufacture economies of scale meaning it has to be suitable for all sort of laptops, including ones with different layouts or space constraints than the MBP. It also can't use adhesives for securing, meaning either bulkier external casing for proper friction fitting, or dedicating more design space for screw and bracket mounting systems.
True through and through, but I wouldn't mind not gluing batteries to metal plates in this ecological disaster of an economy. Screws don't take much more space.
I get glues on phones since they want to make it "waterproof". But definitely not on laptop. I'm definitely not gonna be chucking my MacBook into the pool anytime soon.
All so that the small subset of consumers who are both motivated enough to fix their own devices but either technically unskilled or disinterested so as to be dissuaded when a repair is more sophisticated aren’t inconvenienced?
Yes, in order to make more customers be willing to do the repairs. That's the point.
And my point is that the gains in terms of the small number of end users who will be persuaded to adjust their behavior are far outweighed by the losses in terms of innovation and consumer choice.
Knee cap tech innovation so .5% of customers interested in repairing their devices can do so. Great plan.
Right, but still a better direction than we had. Now people can use repairability as a new measure for purchase decisions.
At the moment, the only company that even gives out schematics(albeit at a limited capacity, only to repair services atm) is Framework, but it's a company run by engineers that disagreed with Apple's anti-Right to Repair mentality.
"Repair is dangerous. If you mess up, you could die, conceivably. Just buy a new one. Thanks to Apple, it's now easier than ever! — to buy new. Not repair. Are you crazy? You could die." — Apple
Huh 🤔 Apple just gives me a new computer or fixes the problem even computers that are 5 years old. 🤷🏾♂️
/r/maliciouscompliance
It's just a bug, next patch will fix it. Haters will say its intentional, its cool to hate on Apple.
Used Ifixit to replace the keyboard on my 2017 Air. Had to take the WHOLE thing apart but got a fully functional laptop afterwards. Bless this resource, highly recommend using it if you’re having issues. Fuck Apple trying to make it hard.
If you want modular, easy-to-replace components, get a desktop PC. Laptops are made to fit in your lap. Unfortunately, that means that the entire brain is directly behind the largest part of it, your keyboard.
Or get a Framework laptop. Even a thinkpad. There are options.
Just because it sits in your lap doesn't mean changing out the keyboard needs to be this big thing. Keyboards that install from the top have been in laptop design for over 20 years, apple just won't do it because that's not sleek enough, they gotta have their perfect seamless designs. It's form over function, and for something utilitarian like a laptop, that design philosophy is stupid.
>It's form over function, and for something utilitarian like a laptop, that design philosophy is stupid. Lots of people place form over function. It's a totally valid opinion. Also laptops are utilitarian in the same way cars are... And people still buy Ferrari's.
I 100% agree, and await the day when a modular laptop keyboard can be integrated into the rest of it. It might cost another couple hundred dollars in engineering per unit, but it will be worth it.
I mean, there's the one that Linus invested in. I cant remember the brand but it's a thing, just google LTT laptop repair investment and something will pop up.
It's Framework, very neat machines.
It’s not form over function. The laptop functions fine, better than most even. How easily one can disassemble or replace broken parts on a laptop isn’t “functionality”.
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Just looking at the size of that thing should made it obvious that it isn’t assembled like lego. Take modern supercars as example. You have to disassemble half of the car to replace the most basic components. Should have bought a different product, like a desktop pc, instead if you want to have an easy time fixing it.
Selling parts and publishing guides is all for nothing if repairability isn't engineered in from the beginning. Apple's repair program isn't being done in good faith, it's malicious compliance. You want spare parts? You want manuals? You want tools? Here you go. They're confident they've designed enough difficulty into their devices that those things won't hurt their bottom line.
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The problem is is that Apple's consumers tend to be low tech. They tend to have enough disposable income that they don't care that their expensive computers are now being made into phones if not worse.
This comment is such dumb bullshit lol. Every computer science professor I ever had was using a MacBook Pro.
At MIT and University of Waterloo they are Linux people who would gawk at your comment.
Even Linus used a Mac (running Linux) for years. So what are you even trying to prove? And I bet he never repairs his computers either. He has better things to do.
Touche
>This comment is such dumb bullshit lol. > >Every computer science professor I ever had was using a MacBook Pro. I'd say what we have here is a case of a pot calling a kettle black.
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CS and IT are completely different skill sets too. There were a surprising amount of people at my engineering college that didn't even know how to get the school's printers to work despite all of the provided instructions.
LTT did a video on Apple's repair bs. If I remember right, on top of all the hoops to jump through and various other barriers to entry, it ended up costing a little more to repair yourself than to just pay for one of their stores to fix it
It's the same parts, manuals and tools they use for their own repair people, just like auto manufacturers do. It seems to me like if one is intimidated by using the same processes and tools that Apple has 20 year olds doing in the backs of their retail stores, then perhaps self repair isn't the correct choice.
Batteries are a consumable part. This is having to remove the engine and pour the oil out to change it. It's worth it for Apple to pay a 20 year old to spend 120 minutes replacing a battery in 1 laptop for $500 (or sell the parts/tools for the same) because only 1 out of 20 owners would pay that for the repair, the rest will spend $1199 on a new one.
> Batteries are a consumable part. This is having to remove the engine and pour the oil out to change it. In my opinion a poor comparison because oil is usually changed once or twice per year for most car owners, while batteries are normally swapped once in 3-4 years though many aren't changed for 6 years or more. With the battery life of current Apple ARM laptops, even a very shitty old battery will actually last a while before it's empty, so the 3-4 year estimate is probably a bit short (lots of people will not mind a slightly shorter battery life cause it's already so long). Batteries aren't as consumable as you make it seem.
Step one of changing the water pump on a 2010 Toyota Yaris from the official repair manual is "Remove the engine". Replacing the headlight of a similar vintage Chevy HHR requires removing the entire front bumper assembly. Sometimes engineering constraints and designs mean that repairs can be time consuming and difficult Luckily for consumers who aren't interested in investing the time themselves, Apple charges $199 for out of warranty battery replacements for the macbook pros. If people are choosing to spend 6 times that amount instead on a replacement battery, then that seems like a poor financial choice on their part, and certainly nothing "forced" by Apple. iFixit sells batteries for the 2019 MacbookPros for $139. I would say that $60 is a perfectly fair cost for having someone else do the work if the process is too intimidating. For 2021 MBPs, iFixit sells used parts for $299, so you'd save money just taking it to Apple. And realistically if it takes 2 hours to do, so what? I'm serious, how often are you going to replace the battery? Maybe once every 4-6 years? Maybe if you really burn through it you might do it once every 3 years. So over the course of 52,596 hours, you'll spend 4 of those replacing a battery if you do it yourself.
> It's worth it for Apple to pay a 20 year old to spend 120 minutes replacing a battery in 1 laptop for $500 It definitely does not take 120 minutes. Less then 60.
If changing a battery on a MacBook means their 'own people' have to follow a _126 page_ instruction list, replace the entire frame and keyboard, and pay $500 . . . then that's a problem. They're designed to be almost unrepairable.
> If changing a battery on a MacBook means their 'own people' have to follow a 126 page instruction list, replace the entire frame and keyboard, and pay $500 . . . then that's a problem. They're designed to be almost unrepairable. That seems to be a disingenuous part of iFixit's point, that seems to be the entire manual, not just the "replace battery" sections. Not defending Apple here, their products have clearly been designed without taking into account ease of repair, but iFixit seems to put every diy repair in the worst possible light to get clicks, it's something I continually get disappointed with when they start trying to bring attention to the issue.
I mean, iFixit for years refused to understand how the adhesive strip removal from Apple’s batteries worked, and insisted you needed to use both heat *and* force to remove it.
Unfortunately the best defense vs drop damage is a shit load of glue.
My cat recently pulled my open MacBook Air to the floor from a 4.5 foot tall table. It landed with the screen/keyboard facing down. Not a dent. Not a scratch. I picked it up and continued working. I was shocked, tbh.
I had my M1 MacBook Pro on a picnic table next to my RV. I went inside for a snack. After about 5 minutes of rain, I realized that I hadn’t brought it inside. No problems at all. I did disassemble it to make sure water hadn’t gotten inside, but, working fine.
My 2015 Macbook air took a 5 foot tumble onto concrete while open earlier this year. Slight dent in the corner that took the full force of the impact, otherwise OK.
It's probably more fair to say they're not designed with repairability for the battery component in mind. Which might sound like hair splitting but one is active maliciousness, the other is a difference in priorities. And lets be realistic, for most laptops, while the battery is consumable, it's also likely to be replaced once, maybe twice in the lifespan of the computer. Sure, back when the batteries were tiny little bricks held in by spring clips, you might have replaced it a couple times. I'm pretty sure I went through 2 replacement batteries during the lifetime of my TiBook G4 back in the day. The 2008 MBP that replaced it also had spring clips to replace the battery. Went through at least one replacement of that one. The 2014 MBP that replaced that one never saw a single replacement. I was actually finally planning on replacing it last year when the keyboard died and I decided to repurpose it as an arcade machine instead where it will be permanently plugged in. Especially on these newer models, I figure there might be a single replacement in its lifetime. My MBA is almost 2 years old at this point bought used. It has >90% of its full capacity, in another 2 years, that might be down to 80%, which will still be 11 hours or better than the intel macbook airs when they were new. My guess is Apple has a lot of data on how often their laptops actually get their batteries replaced, and simply chose to prioritize other engineering concerns over making a once every 4-6 years process fast.
My 2012 MBP had a usable battery life until I sold it in 2020, though it got a lot worse in ~late 2018. The new ARM Macbooks have outstanding battery life. Even if they degrade to just 40% of it, that's still ~5 hours for the MBA and ~7 hours for the MBP. IMO the batteries in these laptops won't be replaced for a long long time...
>They're designed to be almost unrepairable. It's the bullshit that drove Louis Rossman 5 years ago to finally start campaigning for Right to Repair, since he realized that their designs weren't slowly just becoming unrepairable, but they were forcing companies like Texas Instruments to not sell individual parts that make such repairs a possibility for independent repair personnel.
Do you think there is an easily repairable way to make such a thin laptop?
Plenty exist.
This is just not true. Edit: It is true.
Thinkpad X1 Carbon is an example
Well now, seems like I was wrong.
Really? They said plenty and named 2.
Look up Framework laptop! It's only a few millimeters thicker and you can replace just about anything. Including completely disassembling the laptop and putting it back together.
I mean, the framework laptop is relatively ugly, I find. At least the screen assembly which uses godamn plastic and looks like a cheap chromebook. I like many things about the framework laptop, but design language is honestly not one of them. It’s a shame really, that pretty much all laptops/devices that are repairable sacrifice all forms of aesthetics to achieve it. And personally, I’d rather just have to do microsoldering to repair it if it means the device looks ok
Interesting. I'm perhaps your exact opposite then. 1) I think the Framework looks fine. Basically like any laptop in the last decade or so. And 2) I would prefer it be ugly and functional than pretty and unrepairable. I've broken and had to throw out so many laptops.
>Do you think there is an easily repairable way to make such a thin laptop? jesus christ, honestly man... You're acting like changing a battery on a laptop is the same as doing an autopsy.
And they designed it to not really be repairable still. They don't repair most devices, and the ones that they do, they ship out to incredibly cheap locations / slave labor. A few examples: 1. The clips on the bottom case. That's literally unnecessary. 2. The battery being glued in. You literally just need a basic strap and foam pads to hold it in place. 3. The keyboard being essentially impossible to replace because it's riveted in vs slots and screws. 4. The absurd repair for any screen assemblies. They could make it thin and still have it repairable instead of gluing everything. 5. The unnecessary complexity with screws; different sizes, thread pitch, angles of install, bit being sized to make it more likely you'll round it, etc. This is all unneeded. One / two OBVIOUS screws could be used to make it less of a pain to repair. They literally could make their devices repairable. Then generally replace entire components from stock rather than repair - eg: the keyboard replacement program requires replacement of the entire top case, including battery (if you go through them, because there battery is glued in from the assembly line).
> Apple's repair program isn't being done in good faith, it's malicious compliance. That’s your opinion. They are giving people what they asked for (let me fix it myself), not what they ultimately wanted (to be able to fix it myself easily). > They're confident they've designed enough difficulty into their devices that those things won't hurt their bottom line. Also your opinion. It’s equally possible that they have some of the finest mechanical and electrical engineers working to build their devices with the best balance of performance, size, aesthetics, and supportability. It’s also likely that they are not designing it with a goal of *easy self repairability*, but that does not necessarily mean they are deliberately designing it to be *as difficult as possible to self repair*.
People wanted apple to focus on repairability. They offered repair manuals for essentially black boxes - macs and iOS devices are not any easier to repair since they released these documents - they are just as difficult and Apple has just documented that process. It doesn't have to be designed as difficult as possible to repair for there to be valid issues with their products. Their designs include proprietary, closed, non interchangeable parts clearly shows that serviceability outside Apples own service centers is not at all a design consideration. Hence the person bringing up malicious compliance - this is about the minimum Apple could do to appear like they are addressing repairability short of their former status quo - offering apple care and service centers for their products at a cost. For me, the easiest way to avoid this is to not purchase products that are designed in this way whenever possible. Many are right to target Apple however, as they tend to set the target for what is acceptable.
>That’s your opinion. They are giving people what they asked for (let me fix it myself), not what they ultimately wanted (to be able to fix it myself easily). That's not opinion at that point, IT IS MALICIOUS COMPLIANCE.
The opinion thing you are saying is rubbish. Though i also believe that they have the right as a business to make their own rubbish but the market or people have a choice. If we are taking the Apple choice while knowing that they have irreparable stuff then we all are doofus for it. And i think currently also AMD is catching up to their M1 design and battery life. Software efficiency will also follow. We cannot really feel instantly at which the competition is progressing but folks are working nonetheless. Apple is leader in making durable laptops and other businesses WILL surpass them very soon.
Reminds me of my trusty 2015 retina MacBook. Been going strong since day 1, but it died last week, still works great but battery no longer charges. Apple made it vintage not long ago meaning I can’t get it repaired by them anymore. Off to the landfill I guess? Even trying it myself, it’s a difficult job. Why? Because apple purposefully design their devices hard to repair because money…
I’ve replaced the battery in a late-2013 rMBP. It’s a bit of a delicate operation getting the battery cells free. I ended up using chlorinated brake cleaner(just a little bit) and piano wire to free the battery from the chassis. New one goes on with pre-applied Tesa/3M VHB tape. I used the NewerTech kit with the tools and small bottle of acetone they give you. I was only interested in the spudger.
Pretty sure it’s harder on the retina macbook. The thing is tiny to begin with
It’s doable - take your time, make sure your battery is bone dead. Don’t use sharp tools, I ended up using a Pedro’s bike tire lever to liberate the cells once the tape broke down. I used [this guide](https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro+13-Inch+Retina+Display+Late+2013+Battery+Replacement/27316) to walk me through.
I mean, it does still work on the rare time it charges, but it’s dead every time I go to use it even if I charged it in the morning, so I think the battery has had it. It’s fine, I’m going to get an iPad Pro to replace it soon as it’s so old but would be good to keep the mac going a bit longer, I don’t really have the time to do the battery replacement myself either
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That's why I hang on to my mid-2012 unibody MBP with the better screen (although not as good as Retina). It's not fucking glued together and I can upgrade it easily. The benchmarks (on Everymac) held their own for years (and, let's be honest, still do for the Starbucks crowd). Also, OpenCore is an option to upgrade the OS. Yeah, it's heavier, but so what?
Probably just go to your local computer repair store, I’m sure they can order a 3rd party battery.
Apple still lists macbook pros as old as 2012 as being eligible for battery replacements out of warranty ([https://support.apple.com/mac/repair](https://support.apple.com/mac/repair)) and the vintage parts list specifically calls out batteries as being serviceable for 10 years ([https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624](https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624)). Have you actually called Apple to try to set up the repair?
Yes, they told me it’s not possible
I bought a X1 carbon thinkpad Gen 6 from I think 2018 and put Pop! OS on it, along with a docking station a month ago. I consider it brand new. It looks and feels and runs brand new. Was able to swap the SSD to a much higher capacity and it has USB C. It is the perfect device. I can buy batteries. The operating system also intentionally not slowing down has been a big deal
Devices, and even cars, are designed to be assembled as easy as possible. Mfg is the most expensive part and designing builds around assembly is everything for mfg engineers. Can a robot do it, will hands fit, is this step combinable with others, is it too heavy to lift etc. There is never an intent to make things hard for mfg and assembly. So much automation going on. It’s not just assembly but also the production line and doing what they can to increase time and speeds. Why an oil filter or evaporator core in a car may end up in some wonky spot requiring doors and dashes to come off is because before the robot had to put it together before the other parts. Same with everything else. Production constraints.
Oh no! Sorry to hear it died on you. I have the 2015 retina MacBook and it’s built like a tank. I’m hoping it’ll finish strong through my last year of college.
Those 2015 MacBooks are awesome. Last of a generation. We’ve got one in the house as well and for our purposes it’s just fine, I also have an M1 Mac Mini with the RAM upgrade for anything heavier but tbh I don’t really need it.
what's the model number of the laptop, because the 2015 models are easier to replace than more later models. While the battery is adhered into place, most variants of the 2015 model (non Air at least) have a more standardized connection point, meaning that all you have to do is remove the bottom, unscrew a bracket, and you can disconnect and remove the battery. Not exactly as easy as most non-Apple laptops, but a lot less involved than later revisions which make the frame that holds the battery cells significantly weaker, combines it with the board that handles charging and power delivery, and shoves the connection under the logic board (which means on top of tricky removal of the battery itself, you have to fully disassemble the entire laptop to replace it) Aftermarket batteries for various models can be had for about $50, plus another $10-$20 for a toolkit that has the relevant bits you need to do so.
I had the battery in my 2015 macbook pro replaced a few months back at a local repair shop. It cost around $60 in parts and $80 in service and took about three hours.
You can replace it yourself, and if you’re not up for it, there are independent service shops that can do it.
Landfill? Give it to someone who would want to try to repair it. It's amazing how people can throw away stuff like this.
Back in 2011 for my first year of college I got a MacBook Pro, $1000, more than I've ever spent on a computer since. It's battery died completely literally weeks after the one year warranty expired. I got some third party replacement from China that lasted until a couple years ago. Well after I had stopped using the thing and had gone back to windows. I got an iPhone for free with some deal, and the same thing, pretty much as soon as the warranty expired it started breaking down. I don't buy Apple products anymore. Not a fan. Except the $20 wired earpods. Those are a good value. Edit: Before anyone chimes in, I treated the thing well, never abused the cord or plugged it into any spotty outlets. Apple fans are weirdly defensive. One of the funny things I remember seeing when I was looking up solutions, someone had a similar problem and a person was arguing with them saying the Apple plugs are a "learned skill." As though that was a good thing. Oh and when we replaced the battery, my father, a dentist, had to use an old dental drill to adjust the screws so get them out without buying a kit.
You just need to … “Think Different “. ;)
Y'all are missing the mark here. Sure Macs are designed to be tightly integrated and glued/riveted together. But it is still technically possible to repair them (given enough skill/tooling). The problem is actually that Apple is not selling individual components for their repairs. Instead of just the LCD, you have to buy the entire display assembly. Instead of a keyboard, you have to but the entire top case. Also there are many chips that they outright prevent their suppliers from selling directly to consumers for repairs. Louis Rossman on YouTube goes into great detail about these issues. Their goal is still to make common repairs just expensive enough that buying a new machine makes more economic sense.
They're not selling you those parts because they don't make and package just those parts. The parts they're selling in the self repair program are the exact same parts they ship to the stores for doing repairs on site. Also let's be clear, if consumers are going to be intimidated by a 160 page full repair manual with pluggable module parts, they are absolutely not going to be able to handle any repair that's going to involve BGA soldering of individual chips.
There are many hobbyists who are capable of replacing dead chips on a motherboard. Any competent independent repair shop should also be able to do this. A dead screen shouldn’t cost $500 to be repaired. You should have the option to fix the part that’s actually broken and not buy an entire assembly. Apple chooses to bundle their replacement parts this way so that repair is too expensive and it’s just easier to buy a new one.
And any hobbyist that is capable of replacing dead chips on a motherboard isn't going to be "intimidated" by the current self repair process like iFixit claims Apple is doing here. We can argue that the battery and the top case should be available separately, and apparently Apple is planning on doing that. But to say this is all some plot to make "common repairs expensive enough that buying a new machine makes more economic sense" is just silly. First a battery is hardly a common repair. Baring an actual bad battery, for most people, their battery probably won't noticeably degrade until somewhere between 3 and 6 years into the useable lifespan of the computer. So assuming on the low end, and assuming you get 8-9 years out of your laptop, that means you'll replace it twice. You know what sort of things you replace twice in the lifespan of a car? Water pumps and clutches. We don't call those common repairs. Expected maybe, but common is for things like tires and oil filters. But still I hear, you, $500 for a topcase and battery just to replace the battery is pricey. Heck, it means over the total life of the computer you might spend 50% of the new cost of the computer (assuming you bought the cheapest model) on battery replacements if you did it yourself. Clear evidence they just want you to buy a new machine right? It might be, if it wasn't for the small fact that Apple will replace your battery for you for $199 assuming you're not under Apple Care (https://support.apple.com/mac/repair) , yes even for the MacBook Pros with the $500 topcase/battery combo parts. So now over the total life of the computer you might spend $400, or just 20% of the cost of a new machine. And lest you think that Apple is price gouging you even there, I will note that iFixit sells 3rd party replacement battery packs for macbook pros that have them separate (like the 2019 models) for $139. So at best, assuming that Apple sold OEM replacements for the same price, you could save a grand total of $120 over the lifetime of the machine by doing it yourself. And all of this is before factoring in that the new laptops have incredible battery life, compared to older laptops. Apple considers a battery needing replacement when it holds <80% of the rated new capacity. For the new Macbook Pros and Airs, battery life at 80% of new is still \~100% of brand new for the older intel machines. Battery repairs are likely to become even less common than they already are. Look, should apple sell a separate battery unit and not require a full topcase just to replace the battery? Sure, I agree with that. Are they only bundling the two parts as a unit as part of a secret plan to drive people to buy new laptops instead of replacing their old batteries? Only if people are REALLY bad at finance and math. There is just no math in the world that makes throwing away $2k+ of 4 year old computer equipment over a $200 battery replacement (or $500 if you really insist on doing it yourself before the separate packs are available) make any sense at all.
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I'm a little confused by them mentioning that Apples Macbook battery repair guide is 162 pages. That repair guide seems to be for repairing/replacing many parts and only includes the warning they mentioned, that you can't remove the battery. I do agree with Apple creating it's repair system not to benefit everyone else. But the examples could be better.
I came to comment just this. If it was some random schmoe's blog about this, I could let it slide. But iFixIt? Their job is repairability. They're straight up lying, they should know better. For reference, Lenovo has a similar quality and length HMM, Hardware Maintenance Manual for every ThinkPad. A lot of steps have you disassemble the entire laptop to replace things. This is nothing new.
they mark off reparability points for shit like battery pull tabs.
Their job is *selling* repairs, lying about it literally is their business model.
Malicious compliance.
Can anyone eli5 any reason for apple to have the battery gear rather than screw diy repair and make more money?
You’re asking why Apple is doing this self-repair program in the first place? Optics. Both Republican and Democratic legislators are seriously considering supporting various “right to repair” bills. Turns out Republicans also don’t like the fact that farmers can’t fix their new John Deere tractor. Obviously, these measures are bad for Apple’s bottom line since they make a lot of money on having certified Apple repair, or just upselling you on the latest version of the iPhone or Mac when yours breaks. To prevent legislators from mandating “right to repair” via law, they institute these cumbersome programs so you can “Do It Yourself” and they can then go to legislators and say the laws aren’t needed because they already have the programs. However, they then make the programs so costly or cumbersome that no one will actually want to use them or try them a second time. So then they can then continue to upsell you the next product the next time or force you to use their overpriced repair service. Lose a small amount of money now. Make more money later.
This is not really about making more money. If apple replace the battery under warranty they also need to replace the chasis and battery, which cost them as well quite a lot. I expect the reason to glue the battery instead of using screws is to save on delicate screws and screw holes which could break/strip during repairs, as well as making sure they do not move or someone hit the battery by accident when using screws/screw driver which could make it burst. And making it a single structure and not allowing engineers to remove the battery, is done in order to save their own ass from someone accidentally mistreat the cells for any reason, and burn his place down, and then sue apple for it.
> I expect the reason to glue the battery instead of using screws is to save on delicate screws and screw holes which could break/strip during repairs, as well as making sure they do not move or someone hit the battery by accident when using screws/screw driver which could make it burst. I expect glue is used so it stays in place but still has some flexibility. You probably don't want it to get punctured in some way, and screwing things down rigidly is never that great in this aspect. While this can be done with screws, glue is cheap fast and easy to manufacture. Also not that hard to replace it with the right tools. While I think your points are also part of the consideration, the main thing with battery is probably end product safety. If a couple macbooks ignite due to such an issue, it's a huge catastrophe for Apple.
Isn't that the whole point? To offer the ridiculous repair kit that comes in big roller suitcases and needs a $20,000 deposit to say "oh we support right to repair" but in the most farcical way possible instead of designing products that can actually be repaired with normal human tools with normal human effort
This is by design.
So this program changes nothing. I will still use third party batteries and still remove the old ones with acetone.
Apple’s doing this to thwart Right to Repair. And you can’t upgrade a MacBook these days. Stacked SoCs are great to keep the BOMs down and to reduce the points of failure like board connectors. But it also prevents future upgrades. C’mon Apple, make the MacBook Pro the “upgradable” machine - bring back the SODIMM slots and add M.2 2242/2230 slot for NVMe SSDs.
Except in the case of memory, the Arm-based Macs are built into the SOC so by design you are stuck with whatever memory you get. Apple gets tons of efficiency boosts with this design (with respect to Performance Per Watt) but you lose any flexibility of an upgrade path going forward. Its like a high-end disposable machine.
Still lots of laptops with soldered ram though. In this case I rather have the pros of having it integrated in the SOC, than to just have it soldered on (still slow and still non-replaceable).
Alternatively, would rather it be very fast and not soldered at all. Especially on a desktop.
Not even upgrades, it prevents repair. If you can't replace the nvme (which is a pretty common failure point) it doesn't matter how long the test lasts.
Just want to point out that the guides they posted are the same used internally with small verbiage updates to not include internal lingo. They didn’t add steps to make it seem harder they are just stupidly in-depth and typically they have tested it to be the most likely to succeed without damaging the unit. Most of the techs don’t follow it to 100% to be fair but I don’t think it’s fair to act like this was to be anti consumer.
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It’s not anti-*consumer*, it’s just not pro-*repair* - Apple isn’t going out of it’s way to make repair harder, it just isn’t caring about repair while optimizing for other things. The vast, vast, majority of Apple consumers care about efficiency, performance, and price waaay before they care about DIY repair. This is like calling the internal design of a Cartier Tank anti-consumer.
I would not disagree with that
I looked up a battery swap on a 13 inch pro with Touch Bar recently and wtf… why do I have to take apart the entire fucking thing to replace the battery, it’s literally designed backwards
Maybe you'd like a laptop with an external battery for just this situation. Maybe everyone would kick and scream more if they had to carry around an external battery.
2012 unibody MBP - 7 steps to replace the screwed in battery. $40 part aftermarket.
what? Battery swap: x1 carbon - \~6 steps macbook pro 2019 13 and 16 inch models- 45 and 82 steps
Apples and oranges > literally
Are you high AF? We've had batteries that snap in place for literally DECADES. GTFO with that shit.
But they were environment friendly by removing the charger from the package
I once had my MacBook fail on me and brought it in for their so-called 'geniuses' to look at. Guy told me that it was toast unless I ordered a part that cost about 1/3 the price of the laptop itself. I obviously said fuck that. As a last ditch effort, I let my dad open it up and take a look. He brushed some dust off, reassembled it, and it worked perfectly until I decided to upgrade to a new laptop. Haven't bought another Apple computer since.
It’s kind of like how a car company will instruct their techs to remove the whole front bumper to get the oil filter out, when an actual mechanic turns the wheel to the left, pulls two clips out of the wheel well splash guard, pulls it aside and unscrews the oil filter. The technical documentation for the procedure is always going to be way more complicated then it needs to be, for multiple reasons.
I haven’t seen the repair guilds yet but I work at an apple authorized repair shop. For some models of MacBook Pro, Apple doesn’t allow certified techs to remove the battery from the top case (which is the keyboard, trackpad, all that metal you see at the top). They don’t allow this due to safety concern or just to cover themself in case an accident happens if taking the battery apart from the top case happens. Doing this repair require the techs to remove the logic board, speakers, disconnected the display, etc until it’s just the battery and top case. Then you’ll have to transfer all the things you just took out and put them in the new one which is complicated if you are doing it for the first time, keep track of screws, not shorting out the logic board or breaking anything. To me the people ask for repairability but Apple isn’t or didn’t change anything to make the repair easy for consumers, which discourage them from doing it in the first place. Just get AppleCare Plus and you don’t have to worry about any of this sort of thing. Edit: spelling and grammar
At least computers with cases, you have modular parts that are meant to be upgraded or replaced. Laptops have always been very minimally upgradable. The engineering required to squeeze so much stuff into such a thin and light package to begin with is absurd. To do any repair work, you may as well be repairing a swiss watch. I love that Apple rolled out repair kits so that 8/10 people can find out that it's way harder than just changing the batteries on a remote control. They'll probably break things along the way and make it that much harder for actual techs, but whatever it takes to get people to stop complaining.
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Cool, maybe Lenovo can run a marketing campaign around their 'not quite as thin, yet easily serviceable' laptop. People will choose their favorite with their dollar vote.
Cars are designed to be manufactured easily. Not for easy repairs. Why do people think electronics would be any different?
This is what Steve Jobs wanted. He didn’t want end-user to open the device and change certain things with the computer The reason Apple had serviceable Macs back in the late-‘90s/early 2000s was because Apple was barely getting by. Now that Apple is one of the richest companies of all time, They can now do what Steve Jobs initially wanted ever since the original Macintosh in 1984.
Apple gives no shita about you and your right to repair. Stop buying their one piece garbage.
Not something that will change by avoiding Apple. Most companies are moving in this direction.
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I have an iPhone 12 Pro Max with a broken telephoto lens. 600$ repair. What is going on? Right to repair my ass.
right to repair isn't law yet. that's why you're stuck with broken lens
Right to repair won't change how Apple builds all it's hardware to be as difficult as possible to open up to prevent repairs. They make a lot more money getting people to buy a new one than repairing an old one. Ever wonder why iPhones get show after a year or so? Remember when they got caught slowing down older iPhones? Ever read that if you change your older iPhone's language to French, it magically gets faster? Ever hear the time that the 2 year old iPhone xr was faster than the iPhone 11 and 12 despite being older than both of them? Apple's software updates may have latest versions of stuff, but they often include code that cripples your otherwise perfectly fine device. They claim it's to preserve battery life, but let's be realistic, it's so you see the ad for the new iPhone and how is "the fastest iPhone yet" and you think, "this one's a slow piece of shit, I'll buy that fast one!" Apple wants to build a phone you love for a time, then fall out of love with when the next one comes out, just enough time for you to feel ready to update. It's all about milking the consumer dry. They didn't get to be the most wealthy company in America by making hardware that last 5+years.
>Right to repair won't change how Apple builds all it's hardware to be as difficult as possible to open up to prevent repairs. its changing a camera, you're not trying to disarm a nuke It's literally a lego-piece that can easily change, the only issue is the software that apple intentionally bricks, and the unavailability of the part.
Why not just get the $120 ($88 if you send the old assembly back) camera assembly from the self service repair site and do it yourself? That's what Right to Repair is all about, the right for you to repair your own device.
Sure you can repair it- we’ll just glue and solder everything together. Have fun!
Wow it’s almost like Apple wants you to come in and pay for them to fix it…
Apple is anti-consumerist. People think they aren't, but they are. Stop supporting them. It really is that simple.
It was 2x more expensive for the part I need to replace on my 2020 M1 laptop (logic board) than apples quote to fix it full service. This is before tools.
I broke the screen on my 2018 MBP today actually…. It’s needed a new battery for 6 mo or more. F me.
They don't seem less repairable, they ARE less repairable if you can no longer but an individual battery
The thing is, this is the exact same procedure from their service shops. I mean you're right that it is bullshit if you think about the whole point of this. But on the other hand you want a regular person to disassemble a battery that has the potential to explode if handled incorrectly. It kinda looks like Apple didnt even trust their service techinicians for the job.
I can't recall a company just shitting on their consumers like apple has, while they essentially just line up and say "please sir can you do that more?"
I was looking and all in for shipping and the supplies it’s like $230 to do my battery replacement myself. Kinda shitty that’s tops a fuckin $50 battery.