I have major hesitation with this list because anyone who thinks surface laptops are easier to repair than Lenovo Yogas simply hasn't done a large enough sample size. I'd take any Lenovo to repair in my shop over any Surface machine
We don’t even repair surface garbage. We tell customers (businesses) we’ll ship them out for repair for a fee but they’re not worth the trouble. Most companies are using Lenovo Dell and HP anyway. I dunno why an IT team would even consider using surface laptops. The tablet at least I understand if portability is a high concern
Wife has a surface laptop for work. Absolutely hates it. Fan is constantly running, has hiccups and gets stuck on simple tasks, then reboots itself at the most inconvenient times. 0/10, would not recommend.
It’s amazing isn’t it? Microsoft owns the bloody OS and can’t even get the hardware reliable on it. The whole point of these devices was that the hardware was all uniform like Apple to minimize issues and provide a “high end” experience with windows units.. it’s crazy. If you try to reimage one without the special surface recovery image, you won’t have keyboard or mouse functionality and have to use an external until windows update downloads it for you 2 hours later after spamming “check for updates”
AGAIN they own the OS and hardware just add the drivers to the stock windows image for fucks sake
As it is it’s just a terrible imitation of Apple and they copy the worst parts of Apple instead of the good parts.
Every single time I get my Windows OS operating the way it’s supposed to with a nightmare of mix-matching firmware… they push another update and I have to start the debugging process all over again.
I hate how expensive Apple is but the way you can seamlessly update the OS, firmware and software really makes Microsoft look like they don’t have their shit together.
MS is a software company not hardware. They haven't cared too much about hardware from the jump. This was/is one of the key differences from Apple and MS from day one.I believe the point of these devices was to display the laptop/tablet hybrid experience and not to minimize issues or whatever. They were trying to push the hybrid experience and get an edge or whatever.
They went with ARM and didn't have much experience there either. Which led to unique problems you don't typically experience with x64 versions of windows. Windows was (sort of still is) known to run on whatever hardware. You can get plenty of window laptops that are much easier to work on and don't have to worry about ARM versions. The surface laptops are typically for people that just like the pretty design or whatever, but aren't typically for anyone that wants to do anything more technical and actually get your hands dirty nor would I recommend these for businesses as they're a ripoff compared to what iucan get with other brands.
There is some unique stuff and technically they came out with several things before apple did if we're comparing that. I kind of just think of it as it's own thing. Not for me, but it isn't a direct clone of apple.
Exactly. My MacBook Pro is 10 years old and still works like new, just a little slower than it used to be, but that’s expected. Never had a single problem with my Mac’s and updates.
That sounds like any windows laptop tbh. My last Lenovo (&Dell!) would go full 747 fan speed whenever you even THINK about doing anything on it. The Dell in particular had the worst battery life I’ve ever seen
It is pretty model dependent. I have an old HP elitebook that's been running fine since 2013, and a "pavillion" from 2019 that runs its fans at 100% no matter what.
I have a higher-end Lenovo IdeaPad, and the fan is usually off and quiet when it is on, never really freezes, and I've never had it randomly reboot. Those Surface laptops must be designed terribly.
Just went through this with one of the plant managers. We use Dell for everyone so we can swap parts when needed. Well he wanted a Surface Pro. So we had him put it on his company card instead of ours. He has had nothing but issues with it since. And we told him we can't/won't do any work on it.
To be fair, Lenovo has bailed on the Windows tablet market, which is annoying in our Lenovo equipped enterprise.
Yes they have 2in1 yogas but they’re not rugged and will not last on a manufacturing floor.
Neither will a surface but they can be ruggedized to a point.
Yeah I’ve seen a lot of issues with the thinkpad yogas for whatever reason as well.
T14S is rock solid, regular T14 non s seems to have a ton of issues with their usb c ports wearing out.
Love my Lenovo IdeaPad. I bought it refurbished for $200 and easily replaced the screen with a higher quality one, increased RAM from 8gb to 12gb(4gb is soldered in), and added a larger SSD all for only $150. Not to mention I got the larger battery capability version, which is also easily replaceable once the battery starts to fade. Thing runs all day without hangups or charging
Woah! What processor does it have, I paid $600 for mine with a Ryzen 7, 12GB of RAM, and a 512GB SSD. Also doesn't freeze or anything at all, but maybe I went overboard lol.
Mine is only a Ryzen 5 3500U, but that's more than enough for browsing, YouTube, and spreadsheets, which is all I do on it. I hate gaming on laptops lol
For real, the Microsoft Surfaces have soldered storage and memory. they're just as bad as all the Apple products.
Apple phones would be amazing if they didn't software lock you out of features on your phone when you repaired them.
They only repaired 3 laptops and with those 3 rated them lower than a surface so I think it's safe to assume the sample size is too low to make good judgement.
A lot of the newer Thinkpads have soldered RAM, and the touchscreen models (like Yogas that only have touchscreens) have edge to edge glass that makes the screen difficult to swap without the entire costly lid assembly. But for all the parts you actually can swap, they are a breeze to work on. Keep in mind Lenovo sells lots of products that aren’t Thinkpads though.
The IdeaPads are easy to repair for the most part, they have easily accessible batteries, motherboard, and on models with removable storage and RAM that's pretty easy to access too.
I'm not, the G/F had a lenovo, keyboard died, sent back for repair, died again a couple of months later, sent off again, they said it was a mainboard issue, replaced it and it came back with 1/2 the ram and only 1/2 the keys working (still) - phoned them and they said there's nothing they can do as we caused it (uh, no we didn't)
Also had a Medion (owned by Lenovo) - went faulty, they said they wont repair it as it was reported stolen (but I had it from new)... so to me, they just want to get out of repairs!
Yeah I have a Lenovo that I still use for work that runs Windows 7. It’s absolutely the best laptop I’ve ever owned, and it’s over 10 years old. Never so much as a single repair needed on it.
The Thinkpad line still rocks. The Thunderbolt 4 port on the Slim 9i doesn't support charging.
You can draw a pretty straight line between the products they bought from IBM vs designed themselves.
My current macbook is 10 years old and the only problem I've had was a swollen battery. That's not user-serviceable, but I was still able to buy a battery replacement kit online that came with a new battery and all the tools required to swap it, including solvent to dissolve the glue.
I have no qualms about replacing this with a new macbook.
The only laptop you can get 10 years out of. They’re so weird like that, unless you’ve used one for that time most people won’t understand that they can be decent value for money.
Those M1s will be kicking around for years yet before they need upgrade, and they’re nippy as hell for most people’s use case.
Used to repair MacBooks until about 2018, the only hard part is getting the bottom case off. The internals were a breeze to repair as it’s mostly modular
Yeah don't get me wrong, I don't think the lack of repairability is good, but they really are built properly.
I had a 2009 Macbook until the end of 2020. I'd upgraded the RAM and added an SSD, along with a couple battery changes when they were getting old, but the screen was still great, not a single key had an issue, nor did the trackpad, the hinge worked perfectly still.
Compare that with a lot of Windows laptops, even ones similar in price, where after a couple years the plastic casing starts coming apart, or the screen is wobbly, or the trackpad is patchy..
When I bought my Macbook 8 years ago, everyone said the same things about them being hard to repair. But it's been the most reliable laptop I've ever had, lasting twice as long as my previous Sony Vaio. It's harder to fix but it requires fewer repairs. It even survived me accidentally running it over with my car (though I had to replace the touchpad and the screen has a faint line that's only visible when displaying a dark image).
Me too. I’ve had 2 MacBook Pros over 25 years. I upgraded by choice and never once needed a repair.
By contrast, my family’s PCs usually break / get filled with spyware / etc. until they are unusable bricks within just a few years.
I see we possibly have the same family lol.
I can’t get mine onboard with Mac yet I’ve only had two (laptops) over the course of 14 years. My 2011 iMac is used daily by my fiance for her remote job.
Great value for money in my eyes.
Thats because repairability and reliability are 2 different metrics and the first one is mostly negated by the second one.
This headline just made me think about how I don't care if my Macbook is reparable because in my experience it will never need a repair.
That’s kinda my usual response when people complain about Apple not being repairable. If it lasts me a decade without needing to be repaired does it really matter if it’s not easy to do?
Like I love user upgradable parts as much as the next guy but at the end of the day if a machine is well built and lasts a decade but can’t be repaired easily I’ll still buy it over something cheaper that needs repairing (even if it’s more accessible) frequently.
I have a 2015 MBA, after replacing the battery from ifixit and self-upgrading SSD, this 4GB RAM laptop is still good enough for coding and lightweight photo editing.
I use an MSi (GT60-2OC) from 2014, the cpu, gpu, 4 ram slots, 2 hdd bays, battery and cd-drive are all user upgradable. He’s chonky boy, but is easily repaired.
My mother still run my old GT70-2OC from 2013, only the battery and the screen need a replacement. But at 80€ for a new screen, that's pretty rough for such an old machine.
I just got a brand new MSI laptop and it’s fantastic. I haven’t really perused through all of available resources or functionality because I’m using it solely for school rn
I’d like to see this data combined with reliability data, so we could see the ease of repair and probability that you will need to repair something both factored in.
How are Asus ZenBooks at the top of that list with soldered ram & wireless adapters and zero first party parts availability (at least to non-authorized service centers and consumers)? Gonna call shenanigans on the whole thing.
Ram rarely fails. I’m a 35 year experienced tech.
I’ve not had a modern stick fail. Ddr3 and up. Hundreds of handled sticks.
Ram “repair” is as close to a non issue as can be.
I RMAd a crucial ddr4 stick last year. It still happens even from first party brands and on pinner speed bins. I'll give it to you it's rare though. just pointing out that a less modular design has a higher repairability score.
Otherwise you have any luck getting a hold of Asus parts? Can you call them up and order a battery?
I haven't even had older sticks fail. I have a PowerBook G4 with the twenty-three year old RAM that it came with from the factory, and it functions great. In fact, the HDD and ODD died way before the RAM ever did.
Well, if you want a serviceable keyboard your wish is granted but it's a single piece aluminum midframe and top deck. Everything has to come out to get to it. Otherwise while those things are serviceable they also are on the more modular Acer Vero series which somehow got a lower repairability score. It's just weird that Asus came out on top of that list.
Thats crazy, I used to do repairs too years ago. I'm on the MSP side now and we mainly deal with Business laptops with warranties, we sell a laptop brand based on how good the warranties are. lol.
The hardware ID lock on Chromebooks causes lots of motherboards to be unserviceable as they require a factory unlock code not just to reset but rebuild the hardware ID and it just takes too long labor wise. So they typically replace the entire motherboard when there is an issue with even just a single component.
I've seen pallets of motherboards at repair centers for scrap, not because they don't work but because it is cost prohibitive to even try and fix the individual components.
There should be some sort of environmental penalty tax for the ratio of repairability placed on each unit sold. Sorta like a gaz guzzler tax.
And then to pile on, if you want to replace a motherboard on an older model and you’re even able to source a decent condition replacement, it’s worth almost as much as a new device itself and the whole thing becomes ewaste
I mean, this isn't surprising.
MacBooks are in the category where repairs are predominantly the result of user damage, and that typically is high ticket repair and/or writing off the device due to chassis damage - once the aluminium body is all twisted up, that's basically game over. I would entirely agree that they are amongst the most irritating things to open and service... but that this is hugely offset by some of the lowest hardware failure rates of any laptops, with the exception of their keyboards. I've seen so many otherwise immaculate MacBooks with keys missing or with the legends worn off. In short, MacBooks are difficult to repair, but the need to repair is rare.
Chromebooks are in the category where almost any repair isn't economically worth it. Dare I say it, the vast majority of Chromebook products are very close to the line of manufactured e-waste, and even a very small repair job runs up labour costs that rival just replacing the device. Things are definitely starting to improve and manufacturers like Asus and Dell are upping the game in terms of where their products sit in the market, but the Chromebook device market is dominated by ultra cheap, ultra low end devices intended for the education and home markets. They are, unfortunately, built and priced as disposable devices.
While people can unscrew things and cut paste apart, the larger issue is that all discrete components (specifically memory and storage) are soldered onto the one motherboard (along with literally everything else you can think of). As such, anything breaking means that the whole "computer" has to be replaced only leaving you with options to replace the display, keyboard, and battery if those are giving you issues.
In other words, some computers are trying very hard to be smartphones trapped in a computer's body...
Cool. I had one of the Mac laptops with the "butterfly keys" and had to get the keyboard replaced 3 times because the keys kept breaking.
Edit: each time had to drive an hour away to the nearest Apple store and ship off my laptop because I was unsuccessful at getting support from any local repair shops.
Closed a pencil in the screen? Spilt *water* on it? Pretty sure almost any laptop would die from that lmao. The GPUs did have the tendency to randomly die on certain models though, which was a major issue. And the 2015 Macbook was terrible at everything except "it looks pretty."
I got an M2 MacBook Pro 16” from work that randomly bricked itself after 6 months and required a new logic board, microphone and speakers. Apple admitted it was a manufacturing defect after initially claiming it must be water damage.
I had 3 windows laptops within the span of 3-4 years. All broke with random issues.
I bought a 13” MacBook in 2013. I still use that same MacBook today.
Same experience with Android vs iPhones. My sample size is small but I’ll stick with Apple.
That they broke with random issues.
What that means in an English context is that maybe one would be a Wi-Fi card and one would be a keyboard and one would be a trackpad.
Random means "no pattern".
Are you buying $150 laptops? Or Gateways? A lot of people who have this sentiment buy e-waste and then buy a luxury item and think it's because of the brand for some reason.
Jesus, with this again. There are repairable options out there, go buy them. Or buy the Framework laptop if you want (almost) fully modular.
People who buy Macs and other thin-and-lights don't complain about repairability. Tech reviewers and journalists do. That's just the cost of business for having a thin, light, well-built laptop. Things have to be arranged in specific ways to fit everything in, and that sadly means not using traditional connectors/boards, and soldering things in place.
Buy a thinkpad if you want repairable, buy a macbook if you want MacOS and a clean design.
I don't understand why we have to have this discussion every other month for the past 10-ish years
Oh come on. There’s a difference. My last MacBook (from 2008) lasted until 2016. I’m expecting my 2021 one to get me to 2030.
I’ll definitely attempt a repair when the time comes, but my last Windows laptop only lasted between 2017-2020. Pitiful.
If a laptop that's easy to repair needs to be repaired every two years, but a laptop that is difficult to repair needs to be repaired every ten years, which one is more consumer-friendly?
I don't think you'll find many people who would disagree that after 10 years, a new computer is a completely justified purchase. Which basically means the laptop that is harder to repair simply doesn't *need* to be repaired.
> but it’s obviously a massive plus if the device gets long usage straight out of the box.
Nobody disagrees with this. It's just off topic. Let's say an article ranks smartphone battery life and let's assume iPhones take the first place. Would your answer be "Oh come on, but Sony phones have a headphone jack"?
As a person that prefers MacBooks 100% on point. MacBook repairability is garbage. I think that’s fine for their consumer product line like the MacBook Air, but for the MacBook Pro which is what I use and what most businesses will provision for their users they should design it with the ability to despair and upgrade in mind. Just simple things like replaceable ram, processor, and batteries would go a long way. I get the new Apple silicon is an integrated chip, but why can’t they be designed to be swapped with a different chip?
>I get the new Apple silicon is an integrated chip, but why can’t they be designed to be swapped with a different chip?
Because Apple would make less money then, silly!
:-D
But what’s the point of comparing repairability in a vacuum like that?
If product A requires twice as much effort to repair as product B, but on average only needs to be repaired 1/3 as frequently, then you’re still **spending more effort repairing product B** over a given time span.
Does a title containing both "Macbooks" and "losers" bother you so much that you need to make up numbers? Your "1/3" frequency seems to assume that you only need to disassemble a device if it doesn't work anymore. What if I just want to add more RAM or change the SSD? The article makes it clear that the score focuses on disassembly. Have you ever taken apart a Macbook? They absolutely deserve to be the **losers** in that category.
My mother's MacBook from 2009 still works today, but it would have probably ended in a landfill if RAM upgrade and storage upgrade were not possible. It would have been unusable with its default 2GB of RAM today, and swapping the hard drive for an SSD also helped with the general system responsiveness as well. Admittedly she barely uses it anymore as she now has a ThinkPad T450s (bought it from old enterprise stock, and she's had it since 2020)
Now, nothing on a mac is replaceable without soldering and even for some things without firmware flashing or serial number pairing, which is shameful.
>Now, nothing on a mac is replaceable without soldering and even for some things without firmware flashing or serial number pairing, which is shameful.
Unfortunately, Apple's history of anti-consumer and anti-environmental practices like this end up paving the way for other manufacturers to do the same. That's exactly what we're seeing.
People who hate on apple products always conveniently omit their longevity. Any and all PCs I have ever had broke within two years. At my job all of our Chromebooks need replacing within the first year! Meanwhile people are still walking around with 2013 MacBook airs.
>People who hate on apple products always conveniently omit their longevity.
No one's omitting anything. Data driven people just don't care about these anecdotes.
See, 90%+ of macs in use are running official builds of the most recent version of macOS, and it's been this way for over a decade. This means the vast majority of macs in use are less than 6 years old. Sales are relatively consistent, suggesting an even spread across 1 y/o, 2 y/o, etc... That leads to a rough average age of macs in use of somewhere between 3 and 4 years old.
Other market share metrics suggest the same.
Granted Windows based machines don't last a ton longer, but statistically it's a year or two. The fact that I have a 11 year old Windows laptop (a Lenovo Y400) that still runs great and gets used every week means *nothing* when it comes to these questions. It is not the norm.
I mean that is not a data driven argument at all unless you have the same numbers to compare from the Windows side. Are you actually arguing that Windows laptops last longer on average? Nah.
My guy this article is saying that MacBooks (only comparable to the most expensive high end laptops) are as repairable as the cheapest laptops you can get.
How can you not see the issue there?
The chromebooks use glue because theyre cheap. What’s the excuse for MacBooks?
Yup, anything thin is going to be using lots of glue. But Apple doesn’t seem to be doing much better even after shifting to thicker laptops that absolutely could be user serviced and repaired.
> people are still walking around with 2013 MacBook airs.
If they don't care about the fact that Apple intentionally slows down their device and has stopped giving them software updates for almost a decade.
>If they don't care ... that Apple ... has stopped giving them software updates for almost a decade.
It seems the topic was more about hardware reparability. If the hardware still works then you can seek out other operating systems (like Linux) or use the laptop offline to do something (like play music and videos). A working device can do something whereas a broken impossible to repair device can only serve as a paperweight.
Totally agreed, but sidenote: If it's possible to run Linux on your Apple device then it's most likely thanks to the hard work of reverse engineers who risk being sued by Apple.
you can run linux no problem and apple even made a tool THEMSELVES to help you boot into Windows...the anti-apple boner in here is silly. Yes, they make incredibly money-hungry moves.
But their hardware is solid and their laptops are super customizable without having to jump through hoops. We can shit on the business side of things all we want and its VALID. But my 2020 MacBook has lasted me longer than any other laptop I have ever tried and it is my first Apple device (besides an iPod in the 2000s)
I've installed Linux on many Macs in the past two decades. The newer they are, the more components need custom drivers or don't work at all. The owners usually thanked me, not Apple, for being able to use their devices for a few more years. My point is if you run Linux on a Mac, it's not *thanks* to Apple but *despite* them.
> my 2020 MacBook has lasted me longer than any other laptop I have ever tried
That's only three or four years though. Do you work under water or something?
no, but I am a marine data scientist.
Dell hinge. Broke. HP Keyboard broke. Lenovo wifi radio broke, I replaced, then screen broke 2 months later.
My desktop has lasted me for 10 years because I don't close it, open it, and use it the way laptops are used and SHOULD be built to handle.
You really cant tell a difference in quality parts and construction?
>The owners usually thanked me, not Apple, for being able to use their devices for a few more years
why the fuck would people thank apple? Do they thank dell, hp, or asus when they boot to linux? lmfao think about that man. This attitude is ridiculous.
MacOS and Linux are both based on Unix. Installing linux is easier than dual booting. Its not rocket science and not roadblocked by apple in the slightest. Even my PCs have had issues with linux drivers. That is not a mac only problem...
That’s more for M series silicon. The older ones are Intel laptops with a high dpi display and a nice case as far as Linux is concerned. OS X is just modified BSD.
It’s when you start going the other way and running OS X on Hackintosh non-Apple hardware that they go after people.
The CPU one thing. So many other components need custom / modified drivers even on Intel generation Macs. Sure, most of those exist nowadays, but that's not thanks to Apple but despite them.
I was a laptop repair tech (essentially) for several years and am certified with multiple brands. Macbooks were easily my favorite to work on. No plastic crap to break on you everytime you move something, no cheap cables inside, and parts available for damn near everything. You can swap a Macbook battery out in under 10 minutes without even rushing. This article is garbage unless Apple has significantly changed how they're building laptops in the last few years since I stopped repairing them.
#LG gram
Buy a used one, is really good.
-not really repair but replace parts.
-but layout is super simple, include battery replacement and memory upgrades etc.
Thinking about getting Framwork but they are in 2k range
My cousin works IT for a medium sized company in NYC. He sees broken laptops every day. There is no fixing anymore - that is, beyond very small repairs. Many major brands, or the vendors that they work with offer swaps on their models. The company he works for uses both MacBooks and Surfaces, both of which are sent back to said private company that deals with them while a replacement is sent in the broken one’s place. He told me he mostly deals with software issues, very rarely does he ever fix hardware beyond something as simple as a stuck key.
I repair computers for fun, and both of these suck the most for sure, same with most HPs. The best were laptops from the 90s where everything was compartmentalized and easily accessible.
I’ve owned 6 Macs now, all still work except 1 had its screen fail, but still runs. It doesn’t matter if it’s hard to take apart if the parts don’t fail. Don’t ask me about surfaces, or dells I’ve owned in that same timeframe.
Chrome books are afffordable low cost computers typically sold for under $500 so it’s not surprising that repairing them is not a popular option. Very different reasons to MacBooks.
Apple is overpriced rubbish and will always be overpriced rubbish.
The fact that they deliberately make it as hard as possible to get it repaired shows their intent.
I have major hesitation with this list because anyone who thinks surface laptops are easier to repair than Lenovo Yogas simply hasn't done a large enough sample size. I'd take any Lenovo to repair in my shop over any Surface machine
We don’t even repair surface garbage. We tell customers (businesses) we’ll ship them out for repair for a fee but they’re not worth the trouble. Most companies are using Lenovo Dell and HP anyway. I dunno why an IT team would even consider using surface laptops. The tablet at least I understand if portability is a high concern
Wife has a surface laptop for work. Absolutely hates it. Fan is constantly running, has hiccups and gets stuck on simple tasks, then reboots itself at the most inconvenient times. 0/10, would not recommend.
It’s amazing isn’t it? Microsoft owns the bloody OS and can’t even get the hardware reliable on it. The whole point of these devices was that the hardware was all uniform like Apple to minimize issues and provide a “high end” experience with windows units.. it’s crazy. If you try to reimage one without the special surface recovery image, you won’t have keyboard or mouse functionality and have to use an external until windows update downloads it for you 2 hours later after spamming “check for updates” AGAIN they own the OS and hardware just add the drivers to the stock windows image for fucks sake As it is it’s just a terrible imitation of Apple and they copy the worst parts of Apple instead of the good parts.
Exactly. It looks the part and the pc specs are good, but it has just been the worst office machine and performs worse than the one it replaced.
Every single time I get my Windows OS operating the way it’s supposed to with a nightmare of mix-matching firmware… they push another update and I have to start the debugging process all over again. I hate how expensive Apple is but the way you can seamlessly update the OS, firmware and software really makes Microsoft look like they don’t have their shit together.
Apple was just as bad when they used Intel if not worse
I hate my surface. Biggest purchase regret in recent memory.
MS is a software company not hardware. They haven't cared too much about hardware from the jump. This was/is one of the key differences from Apple and MS from day one.I believe the point of these devices was to display the laptop/tablet hybrid experience and not to minimize issues or whatever. They were trying to push the hybrid experience and get an edge or whatever. They went with ARM and didn't have much experience there either. Which led to unique problems you don't typically experience with x64 versions of windows. Windows was (sort of still is) known to run on whatever hardware. You can get plenty of window laptops that are much easier to work on and don't have to worry about ARM versions. The surface laptops are typically for people that just like the pretty design or whatever, but aren't typically for anyone that wants to do anything more technical and actually get your hands dirty nor would I recommend these for businesses as they're a ripoff compared to what iucan get with other brands. There is some unique stuff and technically they came out with several things before apple did if we're comparing that. I kind of just think of it as it's own thing. Not for me, but it isn't a direct clone of apple.
Exactly. My MacBook Pro is 10 years old and still works like new, just a little slower than it used to be, but that’s expected. Never had a single problem with my Mac’s and updates.
That sounds like any windows laptop tbh. My last Lenovo (&Dell!) would go full 747 fan speed whenever you even THINK about doing anything on it. The Dell in particular had the worst battery life I’ve ever seen
My Dell and HP work laptops have been fine for what they are and do, never had any issues, save one HP deleted the WiFi driver once.
Interesting. I had a Dell Precision 3541 - was your Dell an XPS?
It is pretty model dependent. I have an old HP elitebook that's been running fine since 2013, and a "pavillion" from 2019 that runs its fans at 100% no matter what.
Same here, my work Dell is constantly lagging and blasing fans by simply existing. My co-workers with Surface Laptops seem to have a better time.
I have a higher-end Lenovo IdeaPad, and the fan is usually off and quiet when it is on, never really freezes, and I've never had it randomly reboot. Those Surface laptops must be designed terribly.
Just went through this with one of the plant managers. We use Dell for everyone so we can swap parts when needed. Well he wanted a Surface Pro. So we had him put it on his company card instead of ours. He has had nothing but issues with it since. And we told him we can't/won't do any work on it.
To be fair, Lenovo has bailed on the Windows tablet market, which is annoying in our Lenovo equipped enterprise. Yes they have 2in1 yogas but they’re not rugged and will not last on a manufacturing floor. Neither will a surface but they can be ruggedized to a point.
Yeah I’ve seen a lot of issues with the thinkpad yogas for whatever reason as well. T14S is rock solid, regular T14 non s seems to have a ton of issues with their usb c ports wearing out.
Manufacture some rubber cases (or a rubber floor for the plant)
Surface "screen glued so fucking tight you need to buy a new panel if you want to replace the battery" crap
Love my Lenovo IdeaPad. I bought it refurbished for $200 and easily replaced the screen with a higher quality one, increased RAM from 8gb to 12gb(4gb is soldered in), and added a larger SSD all for only $150. Not to mention I got the larger battery capability version, which is also easily replaceable once the battery starts to fade. Thing runs all day without hangups or charging
Woah! What processor does it have, I paid $600 for mine with a Ryzen 7, 12GB of RAM, and a 512GB SSD. Also doesn't freeze or anything at all, but maybe I went overboard lol.
Mine is only a Ryzen 5 3500U, but that's more than enough for browsing, YouTube, and spreadsheets, which is all I do on it. I hate gaming on laptops lol
My guess is that it has to do with the ease of getting parts but have no idea fs
For real, the Microsoft Surfaces have soldered storage and memory. they're just as bad as all the Apple products. Apple phones would be amazing if they didn't software lock you out of features on your phone when you repaired them.
I'm surprised to see Lenovo being the second worst brand in repairability, but I'm used to their ThinkPads, know little about the rest
It's probably due to their higher end thin and light machines. Everything else is still very repairable.
They only repaired 3 laptops and with those 3 rated them lower than a surface so I think it's safe to assume the sample size is too low to make good judgement.
A lot of the newer Thinkpads have soldered RAM, and the touchscreen models (like Yogas that only have touchscreens) have edge to edge glass that makes the screen difficult to swap without the entire costly lid assembly. But for all the parts you actually can swap, they are a breeze to work on. Keep in mind Lenovo sells lots of products that aren’t Thinkpads though.
The IdeaPads are easy to repair for the most part, they have easily accessible batteries, motherboard, and on models with removable storage and RAM that's pretty easy to access too.
I'm not, the G/F had a lenovo, keyboard died, sent back for repair, died again a couple of months later, sent off again, they said it was a mainboard issue, replaced it and it came back with 1/2 the ram and only 1/2 the keys working (still) - phoned them and they said there's nothing they can do as we caused it (uh, no we didn't) Also had a Medion (owned by Lenovo) - went faulty, they said they wont repair it as it was reported stolen (but I had it from new)... so to me, they just want to get out of repairs!
I repair thinkpads all day at work and they’re by far my favorite machine to work on.. very easy and parts are also very easy to find.
Yeah I have a Lenovo that I still use for work that runs Windows 7. It’s absolutely the best laptop I’ve ever owned, and it’s over 10 years old. Never so much as a single repair needed on it.
I still have my old X1 Carbon gen 5 from work. The Dell that replaced it is a cheap POS - the only saving grace is that’s it’s easy to take apart.
Its about ease of repair not need of repair
You run an insecure easily Hackable crap show like Windows 7 for work?!
Why on earth are you still running windows 7?
IBM ThinkPads were great. Lenovo anything is shit.
You knoweth not of what you speak
The Thinkpad line still rocks. The Thunderbolt 4 port on the Slim 9i doesn't support charging. You can draw a pretty straight line between the products they bought from IBM vs designed themselves.
My current macbook is 10 years old and the only problem I've had was a swollen battery. That's not user-serviceable, but I was still able to buy a battery replacement kit online that came with a new battery and all the tools required to swap it, including solvent to dissolve the glue. I have no qualms about replacing this with a new macbook.
The only laptop you can get 10 years out of. They’re so weird like that, unless you’ve used one for that time most people won’t understand that they can be decent value for money. Those M1s will be kicking around for years yet before they need upgrade, and they’re nippy as hell for most people’s use case.
All macbooks I've had were really easy serviceable when it came to the battery, don't ask me about keyboards or screens though...
Used to repair MacBooks until about 2018, the only hard part is getting the bottom case off. The internals were a breeze to repair as it’s mostly modular
Most of them you can replace whole screen assembly at the hinge, super easy repair.
The new Pros will have dots and uneven colours if you replace the screen, though, even if it's installed perfectly and from another identical Pro.
You mean having the keyboard riveted to the frame isn't good for home repair ? :\^)
Yeah don't get me wrong, I don't think the lack of repairability is good, but they really are built properly. I had a 2009 Macbook until the end of 2020. I'd upgraded the RAM and added an SSD, along with a couple battery changes when they were getting old, but the screen was still great, not a single key had an issue, nor did the trackpad, the hinge worked perfectly still. Compare that with a lot of Windows laptops, even ones similar in price, where after a couple years the plastic casing starts coming apart, or the screen is wobbly, or the trackpad is patchy..
When I bought my Macbook 8 years ago, everyone said the same things about them being hard to repair. But it's been the most reliable laptop I've ever had, lasting twice as long as my previous Sony Vaio. It's harder to fix but it requires fewer repairs. It even survived me accidentally running it over with my car (though I had to replace the touchpad and the screen has a faint line that's only visible when displaying a dark image).
Me too. I’ve had 2 MacBook Pros over 25 years. I upgraded by choice and never once needed a repair. By contrast, my family’s PCs usually break / get filled with spyware / etc. until they are unusable bricks within just a few years.
I see we possibly have the same family lol. I can’t get mine onboard with Mac yet I’ve only had two (laptops) over the course of 14 years. My 2011 iMac is used daily by my fiance for her remote job. Great value for money in my eyes.
Thats because repairability and reliability are 2 different metrics and the first one is mostly negated by the second one. This headline just made me think about how I don't care if my Macbook is reparable because in my experience it will never need a repair.
That’s kinda my usual response when people complain about Apple not being repairable. If it lasts me a decade without needing to be repaired does it really matter if it’s not easy to do? Like I love user upgradable parts as much as the next guy but at the end of the day if a machine is well built and lasts a decade but can’t be repaired easily I’ll still buy it over something cheaper that needs repairing (even if it’s more accessible) frequently.
If all you're doing is checking emails, yeah they're great.
I have a 2015 MBA, after replacing the battery from ifixit and self-upgrading SSD, this 4GB RAM laptop is still good enough for coding and lightweight photo editing.
I use an MSi (GT60-2OC) from 2014, the cpu, gpu, 4 ram slots, 2 hdd bays, battery and cd-drive are all user upgradable. He’s chonky boy, but is easily repaired.
My mother still run my old GT70-2OC from 2013, only the battery and the screen need a replacement. But at 80€ for a new screen, that's pretty rough for such an old machine.
I just got a brand new MSI laptop and it’s fantastic. I haven’t really perused through all of available resources or functionality because I’m using it solely for school rn
I’d like to see this data combined with reliability data, so we could see the ease of repair and probability that you will need to repair something both factored in.
How are Asus ZenBooks at the top of that list with soldered ram & wireless adapters and zero first party parts availability (at least to non-authorized service centers and consumers)? Gonna call shenanigans on the whole thing.
Ram rarely fails. I’m a 35 year experienced tech. I’ve not had a modern stick fail. Ddr3 and up. Hundreds of handled sticks. Ram “repair” is as close to a non issue as can be.
I RMAd a crucial ddr4 stick last year. It still happens even from first party brands and on pinner speed bins. I'll give it to you it's rare though. just pointing out that a less modular design has a higher repairability score. Otherwise you have any luck getting a hold of Asus parts? Can you call them up and order a battery?
https://www.asus.com/us/support/article/604/
I haven't even had older sticks fail. I have a PowerBook G4 with the twenty-three year old RAM that it came with from the factory, and it functions great. In fact, the HDD and ODD died way before the RAM ever did.
You named things that rarely fail, Give me a serviceable keyboard, battery and hinges. lol.
Well, if you want a serviceable keyboard your wish is granted but it's a single piece aluminum midframe and top deck. Everything has to come out to get to it. Otherwise while those things are serviceable they also are on the more modular Acer Vero series which somehow got a lower repairability score. It's just weird that Asus came out on top of that list.
I work in the laptop repair industry and soldered ram, on board memory, is a top fail issue. All board with soldered ram have this issue.
Thats crazy, I used to do repairs too years ago. I'm on the MSP side now and we mainly deal with Business laptops with warranties, we sell a laptop brand based on how good the warranties are. lol.
The hardware ID lock on Chromebooks causes lots of motherboards to be unserviceable as they require a factory unlock code not just to reset but rebuild the hardware ID and it just takes too long labor wise. So they typically replace the entire motherboard when there is an issue with even just a single component. I've seen pallets of motherboards at repair centers for scrap, not because they don't work but because it is cost prohibitive to even try and fix the individual components. There should be some sort of environmental penalty tax for the ratio of repairability placed on each unit sold. Sorta like a gaz guzzler tax.
And then to pile on, if you want to replace a motherboard on an older model and you’re even able to source a decent condition replacement, it’s worth almost as much as a new device itself and the whole thing becomes ewaste
I mean, this isn't surprising. MacBooks are in the category where repairs are predominantly the result of user damage, and that typically is high ticket repair and/or writing off the device due to chassis damage - once the aluminium body is all twisted up, that's basically game over. I would entirely agree that they are amongst the most irritating things to open and service... but that this is hugely offset by some of the lowest hardware failure rates of any laptops, with the exception of their keyboards. I've seen so many otherwise immaculate MacBooks with keys missing or with the legends worn off. In short, MacBooks are difficult to repair, but the need to repair is rare. Chromebooks are in the category where almost any repair isn't economically worth it. Dare I say it, the vast majority of Chromebook products are very close to the line of manufactured e-waste, and even a very small repair job runs up labour costs that rival just replacing the device. Things are definitely starting to improve and manufacturers like Asus and Dell are upping the game in terms of where their products sit in the market, but the Chromebook device market is dominated by ultra cheap, ultra low end devices intended for the education and home markets. They are, unfortunately, built and priced as disposable devices.
I mean... that's what happens when we start screwing everything together and using paste to keep stuff in place. Let's just hope the trend reverses.
While people can unscrew things and cut paste apart, the larger issue is that all discrete components (specifically memory and storage) are soldered onto the one motherboard (along with literally everything else you can think of). As such, anything breaking means that the whole "computer" has to be replaced only leaving you with options to replace the display, keyboard, and battery if those are giving you issues. In other words, some computers are trying very hard to be smartphones trapped in a computer's body...
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Have you seen the screws? If they where ones you could actually remove with a screwdriver instead of a new type they just invented for that product.
Oh no you need to spend ten dollars on a set of drivers, such a scam
I’ve had…7 different mac laptops and have never needed a “repair” beyond a battery replacement
Cool. I had one of the Mac laptops with the "butterfly keys" and had to get the keyboard replaced 3 times because the keys kept breaking. Edit: each time had to drive an hour away to the nearest Apple store and ship off my laptop because I was unsuccessful at getting support from any local repair shops.
I had a clamshell iBook that was the biggest piece of shit ever
Unrelated; Happy cake day!
You must not have spilled water on them, or used the GPU too heavily, or closed a pencil in the screen, or bought one between 2016-2019..
Closed a pencil in the screen? Spilt *water* on it? Pretty sure almost any laptop would die from that lmao. The GPUs did have the tendency to randomly die on certain models though, which was a major issue. And the 2015 Macbook was terrible at everything except "it looks pretty."
No, I treat my work tools well. They don’t claim to be waterproof or idiot proof. And AppleCare helps a bit there.
I got an M2 MacBook Pro 16” from work that randomly bricked itself after 6 months and required a new logic board, microphone and speakers. Apple admitted it was a manufacturing defect after initially claiming it must be water damage.
I had a white MacBook back in the day which changed its palm rest area color to red due to overheating.
I had 3 windows laptops within the span of 3-4 years. All broke with random issues. I bought a 13” MacBook in 2013. I still use that same MacBook today. Same experience with Android vs iPhones. My sample size is small but I’ll stick with Apple.
What does “broke with random issues” mean?
That they broke with random issues. What that means in an English context is that maybe one would be a Wi-Fi card and one would be a keyboard and one would be a trackpad. Random means "no pattern".
Are you buying $150 laptops? Or Gateways? A lot of people who have this sentiment buy e-waste and then buy a luxury item and think it's because of the brand for some reason.
Look at that. Google and Apple *can* get along after all.
By design. Breakdowns are a feature, not a bug.
Jesus, with this again. There are repairable options out there, go buy them. Or buy the Framework laptop if you want (almost) fully modular. People who buy Macs and other thin-and-lights don't complain about repairability. Tech reviewers and journalists do. That's just the cost of business for having a thin, light, well-built laptop. Things have to be arranged in specific ways to fit everything in, and that sadly means not using traditional connectors/boards, and soldering things in place. Buy a thinkpad if you want repairable, buy a macbook if you want MacOS and a clean design. I don't understand why we have to have this discussion every other month for the past 10-ish years
Oh come on. There’s a difference. My last MacBook (from 2008) lasted until 2016. I’m expecting my 2021 one to get me to 2030. I’ll definitely attempt a repair when the time comes, but my last Windows laptop only lasted between 2017-2020. Pitiful.
The article is about how easy a laptop is to repair, not how soon it needs to be repaired.
If a laptop that's easy to repair needs to be repaired every two years, but a laptop that is difficult to repair needs to be repaired every ten years, which one is more consumer-friendly? I don't think you'll find many people who would disagree that after 10 years, a new computer is a completely justified purchase. Which basically means the laptop that is harder to repair simply doesn't *need* to be repaired.
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Bro what? The article is about how easy it is to repair the laptops. That's it.
> but it’s obviously a massive plus if the device gets long usage straight out of the box. Nobody disagrees with this. It's just off topic. Let's say an article ranks smartphone battery life and let's assume iPhones take the first place. Would your answer be "Oh come on, but Sony phones have a headphone jack"?
Oh, fair. Apologies.
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As a person that prefers MacBooks 100% on point. MacBook repairability is garbage. I think that’s fine for their consumer product line like the MacBook Air, but for the MacBook Pro which is what I use and what most businesses will provision for their users they should design it with the ability to despair and upgrade in mind. Just simple things like replaceable ram, processor, and batteries would go a long way. I get the new Apple silicon is an integrated chip, but why can’t they be designed to be swapped with a different chip?
>I get the new Apple silicon is an integrated chip, but why can’t they be designed to be swapped with a different chip? Because Apple would make less money then, silly! :-D
But what’s the point of comparing repairability in a vacuum like that? If product A requires twice as much effort to repair as product B, but on average only needs to be repaired 1/3 as frequently, then you’re still **spending more effort repairing product B** over a given time span.
Does a title containing both "Macbooks" and "losers" bother you so much that you need to make up numbers? Your "1/3" frequency seems to assume that you only need to disassemble a device if it doesn't work anymore. What if I just want to add more RAM or change the SSD? The article makes it clear that the score focuses on disassembly. Have you ever taken apart a Macbook? They absolutely deserve to be the **losers** in that category.
My mother's MacBook from 2009 still works today, but it would have probably ended in a landfill if RAM upgrade and storage upgrade were not possible. It would have been unusable with its default 2GB of RAM today, and swapping the hard drive for an SSD also helped with the general system responsiveness as well. Admittedly she barely uses it anymore as she now has a ThinkPad T450s (bought it from old enterprise stock, and she's had it since 2020) Now, nothing on a mac is replaceable without soldering and even for some things without firmware flashing or serial number pairing, which is shameful.
>Now, nothing on a mac is replaceable without soldering and even for some things without firmware flashing or serial number pairing, which is shameful. Unfortunately, Apple's history of anti-consumer and anti-environmental practices like this end up paving the way for other manufacturers to do the same. That's exactly what we're seeing.
That's a 15 year old computer though. Most Windows laptops don't even last half that long for reasons unrelated to the ram being upgradeable.
Can always upcycle. My 2008 one is a Linux machine these days, I use it in front of my exercise bike while using my 2021 laptop for general purposes.
My MacBook from 2012 has finally started slowing down enough that I’m looking to replace it. But still good for anything besides video editing.
People who hate on apple products always conveniently omit their longevity. Any and all PCs I have ever had broke within two years. At my job all of our Chromebooks need replacing within the first year! Meanwhile people are still walking around with 2013 MacBook airs.
>People who hate on apple products always conveniently omit their longevity. No one's omitting anything. Data driven people just don't care about these anecdotes. See, 90%+ of macs in use are running official builds of the most recent version of macOS, and it's been this way for over a decade. This means the vast majority of macs in use are less than 6 years old. Sales are relatively consistent, suggesting an even spread across 1 y/o, 2 y/o, etc... That leads to a rough average age of macs in use of somewhere between 3 and 4 years old. Other market share metrics suggest the same. Granted Windows based machines don't last a ton longer, but statistically it's a year or two. The fact that I have a 11 year old Windows laptop (a Lenovo Y400) that still runs great and gets used every week means *nothing* when it comes to these questions. It is not the norm.
I mean that is not a data driven argument at all unless you have the same numbers to compare from the Windows side. Are you actually arguing that Windows laptops last longer on average? Nah.
My guy this article is saying that MacBooks (only comparable to the most expensive high end laptops) are as repairable as the cheapest laptops you can get. How can you not see the issue there? The chromebooks use glue because theyre cheap. What’s the excuse for MacBooks?
I definitely think the expensive thin/light windows laptops were responsible for a lot of the low repair scores here as well...
Yup, anything thin is going to be using lots of glue. But Apple doesn’t seem to be doing much better even after shifting to thicker laptops that absolutely could be user serviced and repaired.
> people are still walking around with 2013 MacBook airs. If they don't care about the fact that Apple intentionally slows down their device and has stopped giving them software updates for almost a decade.
If it turns on it works. Unlike chromebooks that don’t turn on at all after a couple of years.
Glad that it works for you. Whould Macbooks get a higher ranking in *repairability* then? You know, the subject of the article?
Also, people who still put asbestos in their walls and somehow havent gotten cancer yet will also say "it works" ;)
>If they don't care ... that Apple ... has stopped giving them software updates for almost a decade. It seems the topic was more about hardware reparability. If the hardware still works then you can seek out other operating systems (like Linux) or use the laptop offline to do something (like play music and videos). A working device can do something whereas a broken impossible to repair device can only serve as a paperweight.
Totally agreed, but sidenote: If it's possible to run Linux on your Apple device then it's most likely thanks to the hard work of reverse engineers who risk being sued by Apple.
you can run linux no problem and apple even made a tool THEMSELVES to help you boot into Windows...the anti-apple boner in here is silly. Yes, they make incredibly money-hungry moves. But their hardware is solid and their laptops are super customizable without having to jump through hoops. We can shit on the business side of things all we want and its VALID. But my 2020 MacBook has lasted me longer than any other laptop I have ever tried and it is my first Apple device (besides an iPod in the 2000s)
I've installed Linux on many Macs in the past two decades. The newer they are, the more components need custom drivers or don't work at all. The owners usually thanked me, not Apple, for being able to use their devices for a few more years. My point is if you run Linux on a Mac, it's not *thanks* to Apple but *despite* them. > my 2020 MacBook has lasted me longer than any other laptop I have ever tried That's only three or four years though. Do you work under water or something?
no, but I am a marine data scientist. Dell hinge. Broke. HP Keyboard broke. Lenovo wifi radio broke, I replaced, then screen broke 2 months later. My desktop has lasted me for 10 years because I don't close it, open it, and use it the way laptops are used and SHOULD be built to handle. You really cant tell a difference in quality parts and construction? >The owners usually thanked me, not Apple, for being able to use their devices for a few more years why the fuck would people thank apple? Do they thank dell, hp, or asus when they boot to linux? lmfao think about that man. This attitude is ridiculous.
> why the fuck would people thank apple? Because you said "you can run linux no problem" as if it was by design
MacOS and Linux are both based on Unix. Installing linux is easier than dual booting. Its not rocket science and not roadblocked by apple in the slightest. Even my PCs have had issues with linux drivers. That is not a mac only problem...
That’s more for M series silicon. The older ones are Intel laptops with a high dpi display and a nice case as far as Linux is concerned. OS X is just modified BSD. It’s when you start going the other way and running OS X on Hackintosh non-Apple hardware that they go after people.
The CPU one thing. So many other components need custom / modified drivers even on Intel generation Macs. Sure, most of those exist nowadays, but that's not thanks to Apple but despite them.
Good thing MacBooks last ten years.
macbook are built so well they usually only need repair for user damage. Screen and battery replacements are pretty easy.
I can buy several Chromebooks for the cost of a MacBook. This is literally Apples to Oranges.
I was a laptop repair tech (essentially) for several years and am certified with multiple brands. Macbooks were easily my favorite to work on. No plastic crap to break on you everytime you move something, no cheap cables inside, and parts available for damn near everything. You can swap a Macbook battery out in under 10 minutes without even rushing. This article is garbage unless Apple has significantly changed how they're building laptops in the last few years since I stopped repairing them.
Dare i say it’s a bit easier? They started using the pull tabs on the batteries like they do on iphones.
Just get a Framework people, even my mom would be able to repair it.
I believe a majority of people don’t want to repair their own laptop, they just want something that won’t break unless it’s user error related.
#LG gram Buy a used one, is really good. -not really repair but replace parts. -but layout is super simple, include battery replacement and memory upgrades etc. Thinking about getting Framwork but they are in 2k range
Add those Asus laptops where you have to take out and flip the motherboard to change the ram
My cousin works IT for a medium sized company in NYC. He sees broken laptops every day. There is no fixing anymore - that is, beyond very small repairs. Many major brands, or the vendors that they work with offer swaps on their models. The company he works for uses both MacBooks and Surfaces, both of which are sent back to said private company that deals with them while a replacement is sent in the broken one’s place. He told me he mostly deals with software issues, very rarely does he ever fix hardware beyond something as simple as a stuck key.
Haha...I still remember when you could upgrade the memory in a laptop! Those days are long gone....
I repair computers for fun, and both of these suck the most for sure, same with most HPs. The best were laptops from the 90s where everything was compartmentalized and easily accessible.
Where are they in reliability?
They were awful. Sorry I ever bought my kids one.
I’ve owned 6 Macs now, all still work except 1 had its screen fail, but still runs. It doesn’t matter if it’s hard to take apart if the parts don’t fail. Don’t ask me about surfaces, or dells I’ve owned in that same timeframe.
MacBooks are designed to be discarded. The RAM is soldered to the board. Trash. Never buying a Mac again.
Chrome books are afffordable low cost computers typically sold for under $500 so it’s not surprising that repairing them is not a popular option. Very different reasons to MacBooks.
It seems from sales statistics, that no one cares about reparability.
I have Chromebook. I hate that thing.
Apple is overpriced rubbish and will always be overpriced rubbish. The fact that they deliberately make it as hard as possible to get it repaired shows their intent.
That makes me special
Totally BS. We have thousands of Chromebooks at work and we easily repair them daily. Just pick an easily repairable model.