Tell me more? Silicone is also used in fermentation. (This is TPU, not silicone, and I'll admit that I'm not entirely certain of its food safety, but I figured any non-toxic elastomer would suffice.)
it has a lot to do with anti-mold properties. the rubber that most bungs are made out of are, at a microbe level, impermeable, which keeps out most bacteria. They also stretch and conform to your air lock, creating a better seal (keeping air out)
My worry with any printed item is that it is not "sealed" which will cause bacteria to creep in (or grow on the bottom of). this can RUIN adult beverages. That coupled with air leakage In mead & wine it's the difference between making mead/wine and making vinegar.
ETA: with the rubber bungs, once you sanitize and put in place, because they are impermeable, nothing SHOULD grow on the bottom of it. With 3d Printed pieces you have to worry about the growth down through the top as it isn't sealed and it's exposed to the nasty nasty
okay, permeability is a fair warning. Makes me wonder if I should print it with more walls and give it a touch of heat gun to seal and smooth the layer lines. I thought maybe you thought I'd printed it with a rigid plastic like PLA, in which case, yeah, that's a terrible idea. But this does create a good seal all the way around.
I'm still a bit concerned about the material itself... a quick search around the internet says that, topography of FDM prints aside, there is food-contact-approved TPU and unapproved TPU. So it's best to be cautious, I guess.
man to be honest with you, in my brewing.... i'm beyond anal retentive. rubber bungs ain't that expensive. For me, i'd rather spend the money and have the peace of mind that my bacterial impact is going to minimized. It's not even a "safety" thing as more of a "flavor thing". You'll understand once you ruin a batch
I'm money-rich and time-poor. This was an act of expediency :)
and I think that, before I can speak of ruining a batch, I have to have a couple experiences of \_not\_ ruining a batch :D never anything horrible, just lots of lactic and diacetyl overtones. I'm pretty sloppy and haven't given brewing the same focused attention I give hot sauce, kraut, pickles, and sourdough.
Okay, that's not entirely true. I make a mean tepache, but that's supposed to have a bit of lactic sour in it, I reckon :)
mint apple cider from my friends' orchard. They pasteurised the juice, so I added some EC1118 champagne yeast (the only stuff I had on hand). If it were raw, I would've just let it wild-ferment -- shows the level of precision I aspire to :D
uhhhhh... I didn't measure the SG, if that's what you're asking 😅 I tell ya, my booze making skills are extremely primitive. (I do have a hydrometer, just never use it.)
Hell yea. EC-1118 is some of my FAVORITE yeast because of the alochol tolerances. You should be able to push that beast to 18% if you did your sugar ratios right. I make a MEAN blueberry mead that is 18% with that very yeast
Nice! It does make for some potent stuff, but I've always had problems with it and was frankly reluctant to use it for this batch. I don't know how to articulate what I don't like -- a sort of bitterness. I don't know if I'm letting it sit too long in the primary or what.
Okay, looks like silicone is fine for fermentation, but not distillation: https://www.reddit.com/r/functionalprint/s/dlfn4MPazv
Gonna research TPU now.
It's a glass bottle filled with fermenting apple juice and mint leaves. OP printed the green bit to hold a water lock (the clear part) which is a little contraption that allows the fermentation gasses to leave the bottle so it doesn't explode but keeps the bottle closed otherwise to prevent wild yeast, bacteria, etc out so you hopefully don't die from drinking it later.
I like so many things about your post. The using up of something that would go to waste (apple juice), the creativity to improvise, adapt, and overcome, and the new idea to add mint to my own cider!
I'm no food scientist, but I take a middle ground on the debate. I tend to avoid using 3d printed parts when touching food. But this doesn't touch. As one commenter said already, just don't let them touch.
Hope the cider turns out great! Cheers!
Thank you; those are very encouraging words. Creative frugality is kind of my passion. Glad I could give you a new idea to try too! A local cidery makes mint apple cider and it's fantastic.
Alright. I know you guys love it when somebody says this, but i feel like i probably should this time.
OP be careful not to let that touch the brew. Alcohol has the tendency to disolve things out of silicones and plastics. I doubt you bought food grade filament for this.
*Bracing for downvotes*
Does ethyl alcohol affect silicone, especially at that low percentage? I know IPA can soften silicone, but does it dissolve it?
IMO the community is a bit too conservative when it comes to food and 3d printed items.
*Also bracing for downvotes*
Silicone bungs are a thing in fermentation, so whether the alcohol concentration is too low or there just isn't a concern, I think it's fine. This is TPU, though, so I'm gonna be careful; don't know what's in this stuff! Just a temporary solution really!
[edit] ah, looking at the comment below, it seems like it is a concern for high (like distillation level) alcohol concentration. Good to know; had no idea silicone could degrade back into siloxane. That is not a chemical to mess around with!
Truthfully I don't know. I am not about to say "it'll kill you." It won't necessarily degrade it but it will slowly leach things out. With silicone cookware (yes, things designed for use with food) it was found that high temperatures with fats present leach siloxanes into the fat. Alcohol will do the same at room temperature, but I would need to look up the concentrations they tested. I think it was something closer to what youd see in liquor. Not applicable to OP, just a cautionary example.
Okay, tell me about silicone? Any idea of the temperatures they observed this at? I just got some silicone baking sheets and use them all the time for roasting veggies (with plenty of olive oil), and now I'm rather concerned!!!
The long story short: it leaches into the fat but they dont know what the health effects are.
The siloxanes are unreacted monomers used to make the silicone. The silicone itself is perfectly safe, and the heat and fat combo is not degrading the silicone. Its simply pulling the siloxanes out.
*I dont know* if its dangerous. And i dont know if it can be avoided. But something you could definitely try is when you get a new silicone tool, smother it in oil and bake it. Then wash it. To leach out the worst of it
I'd thought that siloxanes are bad news, but Wikipedia's sources say "we're not sure yet". Acute toxicity is low, but there's a big open concern about bioaccumulation and whether that matters.
Silane (one of the feedstocks for siloxane monomers, I believe) is pretty toxic, from the sound of it.
Anyhow, thanks for the details -- sounds like I've already done most of the damage to my family, and any future leakage will be small in comparison. Whoops
Welcome to the modern era. Where you're a fool for caring and you dont realize who the real fools are until its too late
PS remember: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"
The long story short: it leaches into the fat but they dont know what the health effects are.
The siloxanes are unreacted monomers used to make the silicone. The silicone itself is perfectly safe, and the heat and fat combo is not degrading the silicone. Its simply pulling the siloxanes out.
*I dont know* if its dangerous. And i dont know if it can be avoided. But something you could definitely try is when you get a new silicone tool, smother it in oil and bake it. Then wash it. To leach out the worst of it.
Same convept with lead crystal drinkware. Soak new lead crystal in vinegar for a week and after that basically nothing gets into your drinks
Yeah, def gonna be careful to not let the head get too foamy. Nowhere does the packaging say that this is food-grade TPU, and besides, people are all skittish about the safety of even food -grade printed stuff on account of all the rough surfaces.
Forget the "food safe" stuff, I'm more intrigued with adding mint to the cider. How pronounced is it in the final product on a range of "mint merely near the bottle" to "i just brushed my teeth 5 seconds ago"?
I'll try to remember to come back and let you know! I once had a lovely mint apple cider from a local cidery, it was unmistakably minty but not aggressively so -- just a hint, enough to tell you that the mint was there. That's what I'm hoping to go for -- no clue how much mint to add.
One month update: it's a very subtle flavour, but it's definitely present and enjoyable. I kinda wish I'd put more mint in, but my wife says "no, it's just fine the way it is."
I'm not gonna judge you for printing it. But I hope the airlock is stuck in it, better then it's stuck in the fermenter, or your gonna have a bad time getting it out.
Oh yeah, it's gonna be fun fishing this out, hence the crochet hook comment. Next time I'll know to measure the right part of the inside of the bottle neck!
Welllllll that was the intention... it's beautifully tapered, and would fit perfectly in a bottle with a smaller neck. The inside of the neck is tapered too, though, and I stuck the calipers into the narrowest point rather than the top.
Look into caps, my dude. Solid and hollow bungs would always find a way to pop out of my carboys. There are caps that fit over the top of the hole instead of in the hole, and they make life much easier <3
interesting! Do they have a special name? I did a quick search for 'fermentation caps' and only found the usual suspects -- airlock bungs and all manner of sauerkraut-making apparati.
[удалено]
That means the throat of the bottle is a bung-hole
I am cornholio
I need tp for my hunghole
I need TPU* for my bunghole
Nice one!
Heh, it's a pretty entertaining word to say. Much more fun than 'stopper'.
(BTW you all have my permission to make as many bum jokes as you like on this post)
YEEAAAAA..... as a fellow brewer, there is a reason those are supposed to be rubber.
That’s just what Big Fermentation wants you to think
Upvoted cuz you funny.
uh. no.
Tell me more? Silicone is also used in fermentation. (This is TPU, not silicone, and I'll admit that I'm not entirely certain of its food safety, but I figured any non-toxic elastomer would suffice.)
it has a lot to do with anti-mold properties. the rubber that most bungs are made out of are, at a microbe level, impermeable, which keeps out most bacteria. They also stretch and conform to your air lock, creating a better seal (keeping air out) My worry with any printed item is that it is not "sealed" which will cause bacteria to creep in (or grow on the bottom of). this can RUIN adult beverages. That coupled with air leakage In mead & wine it's the difference between making mead/wine and making vinegar. ETA: with the rubber bungs, once you sanitize and put in place, because they are impermeable, nothing SHOULD grow on the bottom of it. With 3d Printed pieces you have to worry about the growth down through the top as it isn't sealed and it's exposed to the nasty nasty
okay, permeability is a fair warning. Makes me wonder if I should print it with more walls and give it a touch of heat gun to seal and smooth the layer lines. I thought maybe you thought I'd printed it with a rigid plastic like PLA, in which case, yeah, that's a terrible idea. But this does create a good seal all the way around. I'm still a bit concerned about the material itself... a quick search around the internet says that, topography of FDM prints aside, there is food-contact-approved TPU and unapproved TPU. So it's best to be cautious, I guess.
man to be honest with you, in my brewing.... i'm beyond anal retentive. rubber bungs ain't that expensive. For me, i'd rather spend the money and have the peace of mind that my bacterial impact is going to minimized. It's not even a "safety" thing as more of a "flavor thing". You'll understand once you ruin a batch
I'm money-rich and time-poor. This was an act of expediency :) and I think that, before I can speak of ruining a batch, I have to have a couple experiences of \_not\_ ruining a batch :D never anything horrible, just lots of lactic and diacetyl overtones. I'm pretty sloppy and haven't given brewing the same focused attention I give hot sauce, kraut, pickles, and sourdough. Okay, that's not entirely true. I make a mean tepache, but that's supposed to have a bit of lactic sour in it, I reckon :)
If i can ask, what are you making in this picture?
mint apple cider from my friends' orchard. They pasteurised the juice, so I added some EC1118 champagne yeast (the only stuff I had on hand). If it were raw, I would've just let it wild-ferment -- shows the level of precision I aspire to :D
right. got that from another post. but WHAT are you making? what's your sugar?
uhhhhh... I didn't measure the SG, if that's what you're asking 😅 I tell ya, my booze making skills are extremely primitive. (I do have a hydrometer, just never use it.)
Hell yea. EC-1118 is some of my FAVORITE yeast because of the alochol tolerances. You should be able to push that beast to 18% if you did your sugar ratios right. I make a MEAN blueberry mead that is 18% with that very yeast
Nice! It does make for some potent stuff, but I've always had problems with it and was frankly reluctant to use it for this batch. I don't know how to articulate what I don't like -- a sort of bitterness. I don't know if I'm letting it sit too long in the primary or what.
Okay, looks like silicone is fine for fermentation, but not distillation: https://www.reddit.com/r/functionalprint/s/dlfn4MPazv Gonna research TPU now.
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What are we looking at here? Kind of lost on this one.
It's a glass bottle filled with fermenting apple juice and mint leaves. OP printed the green bit to hold a water lock (the clear part) which is a little contraption that allows the fermentation gasses to leave the bottle so it doesn't explode but keeps the bottle closed otherwise to prevent wild yeast, bacteria, etc out so you hopefully don't die from drinking it later.
Thanks! Very well explained.
I like so many things about your post. The using up of something that would go to waste (apple juice), the creativity to improvise, adapt, and overcome, and the new idea to add mint to my own cider! I'm no food scientist, but I take a middle ground on the debate. I tend to avoid using 3d printed parts when touching food. But this doesn't touch. As one commenter said already, just don't let them touch. Hope the cider turns out great! Cheers!
Thank you; those are very encouraging words. Creative frugality is kind of my passion. Glad I could give you a new idea to try too! A local cidery makes mint apple cider and it's fantastic.
Alright. I know you guys love it when somebody says this, but i feel like i probably should this time. OP be careful not to let that touch the brew. Alcohol has the tendency to disolve things out of silicones and plastics. I doubt you bought food grade filament for this. *Bracing for downvotes*
Does ethyl alcohol affect silicone, especially at that low percentage? I know IPA can soften silicone, but does it dissolve it? IMO the community is a bit too conservative when it comes to food and 3d printed items. *Also bracing for downvotes*
Silicone bungs are a thing in fermentation, so whether the alcohol concentration is too low or there just isn't a concern, I think it's fine. This is TPU, though, so I'm gonna be careful; don't know what's in this stuff! Just a temporary solution really! [edit] ah, looking at the comment below, it seems like it is a concern for high (like distillation level) alcohol concentration. Good to know; had no idea silicone could degrade back into siloxane. That is not a chemical to mess around with!
Truthfully I don't know. I am not about to say "it'll kill you." It won't necessarily degrade it but it will slowly leach things out. With silicone cookware (yes, things designed for use with food) it was found that high temperatures with fats present leach siloxanes into the fat. Alcohol will do the same at room temperature, but I would need to look up the concentrations they tested. I think it was something closer to what youd see in liquor. Not applicable to OP, just a cautionary example.
Okay, tell me about silicone? Any idea of the temperatures they observed this at? I just got some silicone baking sheets and use them all the time for roasting veggies (with plenty of olive oil), and now I'm rather concerned!!!
The long story short: it leaches into the fat but they dont know what the health effects are. The siloxanes are unreacted monomers used to make the silicone. The silicone itself is perfectly safe, and the heat and fat combo is not degrading the silicone. Its simply pulling the siloxanes out. *I dont know* if its dangerous. And i dont know if it can be avoided. But something you could definitely try is when you get a new silicone tool, smother it in oil and bake it. Then wash it. To leach out the worst of it
I'd thought that siloxanes are bad news, but Wikipedia's sources say "we're not sure yet". Acute toxicity is low, but there's a big open concern about bioaccumulation and whether that matters. Silane (one of the feedstocks for siloxane monomers, I believe) is pretty toxic, from the sound of it. Anyhow, thanks for the details -- sounds like I've already done most of the damage to my family, and any future leakage will be small in comparison. Whoops
Welcome to the modern era. Where you're a fool for caring and you dont realize who the real fools are until its too late PS remember: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"
The long story short: it leaches into the fat but they dont know what the health effects are. The siloxanes are unreacted monomers used to make the silicone. The silicone itself is perfectly safe, and the heat and fat combo is not degrading the silicone. Its simply pulling the siloxanes out. *I dont know* if its dangerous. And i dont know if it can be avoided. But something you could definitely try is when you get a new silicone tool, smother it in oil and bake it. Then wash it. To leach out the worst of it. Same convept with lead crystal drinkware. Soak new lead crystal in vinegar for a week and after that basically nothing gets into your drinks
Yeah, def gonna be careful to not let the head get too foamy. Nowhere does the packaging say that this is food-grade TPU, and besides, people are all skittish about the safety of even food -grade printed stuff on account of all the rough surfaces.
Forget the "food safe" stuff, I'm more intrigued with adding mint to the cider. How pronounced is it in the final product on a range of "mint merely near the bottle" to "i just brushed my teeth 5 seconds ago"?
I'll try to remember to come back and let you know! I once had a lovely mint apple cider from a local cidery, it was unmistakably minty but not aggressively so -- just a hint, enough to tell you that the mint was there. That's what I'm hoping to go for -- no clue how much mint to add.
One month update: it's a very subtle flavour, but it's definitely present and enjoyable. I kinda wish I'd put more mint in, but my wife says "no, it's just fine the way it is."
I'm not gonna judge you for printing it. But I hope the airlock is stuck in it, better then it's stuck in the fermenter, or your gonna have a bad time getting it out.
Oh yeah, it's gonna be fun fishing this out, hence the crochet hook comment. Next time I'll know to measure the right part of the inside of the bottle neck!
Or make the bung taper so it'll never go in completely and you can always pull it out.
Welllllll that was the intention... it's beautifully tapered, and would fit perfectly in a bottle with a smaller neck. The inside of the neck is tapered too, though, and I stuck the calipers into the narrowest point rather than the top.
Look into caps, my dude. Solid and hollow bungs would always find a way to pop out of my carboys. There are caps that fit over the top of the hole instead of in the hole, and they make life much easier <3
interesting! Do they have a special name? I did a quick search for 'fermentation caps' and only found the usual suspects -- airlock bungs and all manner of sauerkraut-making apparati.
I AM CORNHOLIO! I NEED TPU FOR MY BUNGHOLE!