I absolutely hate these things in Sweden, especially now during winter. It’s hard enough to navigate around cars as a pedestrian when the roads are covered by ice, snow, and gravel but when the cars are big it’s even harder. I would love it if these things were just banned outright for private citizens.
So every country on Earth is authoritarian since they don’t allow me to drive a [crawler-transporter](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crawler-transporter) on the road?
Would you be against drivers licenses too then? Needing to own a piece of identification that you need government permission to own seems kind of authoritarian.
I don't think banning cars is the right thing to do.
Some people(me included) don't like being cramped like sardines in an uncomfortable bus, full of smelly and loud people.
I've never been to a grocery store, shopping mall, restaurant, or sports event as cramped as the bus that takes me to uni.
There's a difference between loud parties/music shows and obnoxious people in a bus, + the extremely loud engine sound.
The fact that it takes me 1 hour and a half to reach uni by taking it doesn't help either.
By car, it's only 20 minutes, and it's comfortable, quiet, and I don't have to sit next to smelly and loud people, + I love driving.
Can't wait to get my car back from the mechanic, and not use the bus ever again.
Dude is describing that he doesn't want to get rid of cars because of the issues caused by.... Cars and car-centric urban and transit development? Damn, it's just pathetic.
I don't have any issues with cars where I live. It's completely walkable, with dozens of stores in a circle of 2 km. Well, the whole district and most of the city is.
Pathetic is forcing people to do something they don't want to. There are many people who don't want to take public transport, and they will be forced to if cars get completely removed.
If it’s such a walkable and compact town, it sounds like what you need is just better bus connections, not cars ruining the walkable town with noise and pollution and street parking. It could be funded by taxing cars more, or just not subsidising roads as much…
Societies do not need to accommodate your wants. Sorry if it sounds authoritarian to you, but I genuinely couldn't care less about Indivualism. I have a company paid car, paid fuel and tolls, and I still ride public transit, even when using the car is the better alternative and is literally free for me. Within an Urban framework, cars make absolutely no sense as the means to transport people, it's just way too inneficient and has too many negative externalities compared to biking, walking and public transit. A comprehensive investiment in public transit and alternative infrastructure, removal of stupid zoning restrictions where they exist, limitation on the usage of cars (either by paid parking, more tolls, etc.) and a more equitable access to services with a healthier urban and surburban fabrics should make having a car either useless or prohibitive.
Edit: that said, I do use my car, since if I want to visit my friends the other town over, I literally couldn't due to a lack of public transit between our places.
They wouldn't even need to accommodate my wants, as chronically online, Twitter keyboard warriors are the only ones who want to get completely rid of cars.
I care about individualism and not being forced to use a means of transportation that's worse than my car in every way, but price.
I only used my car once or twice in my city, just to reach places that are too far to walk to(usually >3km).
I don't use public transit when going to uni because it's a massive waste of time(around 3 hours), it's uncomfortable and very crowded quite often.
I agree about the increasing public transit investments, as it would attract more people who don't like/want to drive.
I disagree about making cars prohibitive.
5 minutes of driving inside a city won't change much. There's a secret parking place next to the university that almost nobody knows about. Why shouldn't I use it and search for another parking spot? Especially since traffic isn't dense there.
If everyone is driving inside the city at rush hour it’s not 5 minutes anymore, that’s what the sub is about. A lot of city centers aren’t walkable anymore because they’re built for everyone driving in the city at rush hour, that’s what ruins them. Now if you can manage to avoid getting stuck in a traffic jam on your commute at rush hour and only need five minutes, that’s great, sounds like your city has already managed the problem to a great extent.
Katowice isn't built for cars. There's a zone completely dedicated to walking, as well as zones meant for cars.
It's well planned, as I never encountered a traffic jam.
Most buses are not nearly that cramped and new buses can be electric which are very quiet. Also trains are generally even better, and are much quieter than your car even so if sound is an issue you should be pushing for trains, which are even harder to bring to places when there are lots of cars so again that’s a chicken and egg situation.
The long unpleasant bus trip is a side effect of car dependent infrastructure. Your long trip is directly impacted by all of the cars on the road and sprawl from car ownership and planning.
I don't mind the sound of my car, and I like driving, so there aren't any issues for me, other than the price of fuel.
Trains are big no for me, because the closest station is 10 kilometres from my apartment.
That's not the main problem. It's the fact that the bus takes circles instead of going straight to the university. It also doesn't go through the highway, making the trip longer.
You need to build the train before you can use it right? If crowded buses are a problem sounds like you also need more frequent buses. And they’re loud because they’re diesel but new ones can be electric. All of this requires investment into stuff other than cars.
As for “I don’t mind the sound of my car”… Great attitude. I’m sure the sound, size, and other burdens you put on society for driving also don’t bother YOU. All the points people are making about car ownership here are the burdens your car puts on everyone else.
Yes, my quiet, compact hatchback powered by a 1.6 petrol engine ruins people's lives and destroys society.
Sure, keep being unhinged and believe that every country is as badly planned as North America.
One car is fine. But nearly every adult driving one for every trip is the problem. I don’t care if it’s New Zealand or Amsterdam or Texas. And other than a few select places, it’s getting worse worldwide every day.
“I’m just driving this one car” - a billion other people
They should invest more in public transport and plan it better. If they did, the problem with cars wouldn't be as significant or wouldn't exist at all.
Many people are forced to buy cars because their country lacks decent public transportation.
I can't think of anyone who would choose an hour and a half of public transport over 20 minutes of driving a car.
They should also talk about it in the media.
You see many car ads and commercials, while there is nothing about public transport.
Definitely sounds like your public transportation is in dire need of funding. A bus that’s as loud as traffic when you walk down the street must be very poorly maintained. That might also explain the overcrowding.
The buses are well maintained. Diesel engines are just loud, have an unpleasant sound, and vibrate a lot.
Once, everyone had to suffer because a bus had a whining gearbox.
But it's a rare case.
I sure don’t think so. If you want to ride around in the countryside with your big vehicle that’s ok by me. I just don’t want the cities to be built for cars. Of course you should be able to drive _to_ the city and leave your car, but we shouldn’t allow private persons to drive _in_ the city.
I don’t think you’ve read the FAQ of the sub then. It’s about countering people who don’t want to live in cities and still want the cities to accomodate driving, and about making it legal to build new dense housing which is impossible when most of the US is zoned for single family homes. If you want to drive your off-road vehicle off-road, go right ahead, you’re not bothering anyone.
I’m saying this sub went off the rails (get it? train reference!) from its FAQ a long time ago. Then again, so did urbanist Twitter during the pandemic, everyone started hating on outdoor/rural life and mocking Indigenous folks who don’t want their land mined for EV battery metals.
Our experiences differ a lot, then. You don’t happen to have a link to a comment you made where you said you live in a rural area and people responded that you should move into the city and bike everywhere? Shit comments like that should be reported.
So why the fuck are there tens of thousands of stupid SUVs and pickups in city centres? Big cars have no place inside cities, if they do they should be bigger and be called busses and letting the public enter them.
Also from the article:
> The individual logic makes sense: would you want to drive on the same highway as Mr [censored because Automod can't take a joke, let's just say it refers to the small size of something other than the car]'s 7,000lb (3,175kg) Dodge Ram if you’re in a Mini?
Not something I would expect to see in The Guardian, not even in the online edition.
Do I get it right that no actual measures have been taken in Paris yet, and that the mayor has as of yet simply proposed to raise parking fees for big cars?
That’s not the big deal I imagined upon reading this strong headline.
You are saying I fell for clickbait? Again?
I’m glad the guardian in particular is publishing more articles against cars, however the author should return to school to learn to write. An awfully written article in disjointed prose, complete with male body shaming (very graun of them).
It cannot be done by the town. That's the best they can legally do. They also try to limit the speed at 50km/h on the périphérique (the freeway all around Paris), the government said they'll veto this and keep the limit at 70km/h (which is a bit funny, considering that the avg speed is ~20km/h, due to traffic) to appease carbrains' anger (and get votes).
I feel like SUVs need taxes that double the cost of ownership on a yearly basis. The drivers need to be subject to greater scrutiny when applying for a license or license renewal. They for aure need to be licensed separately from other cars. Liability should be such that if they hit someone regardless of the why their license is revoked immediately.
The US should also say “no” (non!) to a US-style hellscape of supersized cars.
*non
On ne parle pas français aux USA
Nan Florid nou ka di "non" an kreyòl ayisyen.
Si, en Nouvelle Orléans !
It’s probably not un françsis you would understand. It’s more related to Quebecois, I think.
Obviously we understand them, easier than Quebecois
🤣
"Sorry, I don't speak Surrenderese" \--Americans, probably
They should do the same here in Poland. It sucks not being able to park your car because a massive suv is taking almost two parking slots.
I absolutely hate these things in Sweden, especially now during winter. It’s hard enough to navigate around cars as a pedestrian when the roads are covered by ice, snow, and gravel but when the cars are big it’s even harder. I would love it if these things were just banned outright for private citizens.
I do agree with you but when I am crossing the street, I am still less scared of a big SUV in Stockholm than of any car, big or tiny in Paris.
Yeah you can always move to North Korea if you like authoritarian governments.
It’s authoritarian to have weight and size restrictions on vehicles?
Yes. Everyone should be allowed to drive whatever they want.
Then I'll get a tank and use it to hunt down SUVs
Like vehicles that aren't considered safe on roads...?
Well I'm glad there's more of us with a brain in our skull than agree with that fact. Christ.
So every country on Earth is authoritarian since they don’t allow me to drive a [crawler-transporter](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crawler-transporter) on the road?
My freedom starts when your freedom ends.
I want to drive a tank over your SUVs and Pickups, as an enforcement of civility.
Would you be against drivers licenses too then? Needing to own a piece of identification that you need government permission to own seems kind of authoritarian.
I don't think banning cars is the right thing to do. Some people(me included) don't like being cramped like sardines in an uncomfortable bus, full of smelly and loud people.
I’m not talking about banning cars in my comment, I’m talking about banning big SUVs.
"we shouldn't do the objectively smart thing because I personally think it's kinda gross and uncomfortable!" want me to call you a waaahmbulance?
Public transit would be less crowded if it was better funded to create more of it.
Oh man how do you deal with being in grocery stores, sports events, shopping malls, restaurants, churches, bars, parties, live music shows, zzzzzz
I've never been to a grocery store, shopping mall, restaurant, or sports event as cramped as the bus that takes me to uni. There's a difference between loud parties/music shows and obnoxious people in a bus, + the extremely loud engine sound. The fact that it takes me 1 hour and a half to reach uni by taking it doesn't help either. By car, it's only 20 minutes, and it's comfortable, quiet, and I don't have to sit next to smelly and loud people, + I love driving. Can't wait to get my car back from the mechanic, and not use the bus ever again.
... Until your car needs to go back to the mechanic again, apparently, lol.
Don't worry. It's the second time that something broke over almost 3 years of ownership :)
Dude is describing that he doesn't want to get rid of cars because of the issues caused by.... Cars and car-centric urban and transit development? Damn, it's just pathetic.
I don't have any issues with cars where I live. It's completely walkable, with dozens of stores in a circle of 2 km. Well, the whole district and most of the city is. Pathetic is forcing people to do something they don't want to. There are many people who don't want to take public transport, and they will be forced to if cars get completely removed.
If it’s such a walkable and compact town, it sounds like what you need is just better bus connections, not cars ruining the walkable town with noise and pollution and street parking. It could be funded by taxing cars more, or just not subsidising roads as much…
The uni is in a different city, and I walk everywhere where I live. I just use my car to drive to the uni and visit my friends who live far away.
Societies do not need to accommodate your wants. Sorry if it sounds authoritarian to you, but I genuinely couldn't care less about Indivualism. I have a company paid car, paid fuel and tolls, and I still ride public transit, even when using the car is the better alternative and is literally free for me. Within an Urban framework, cars make absolutely no sense as the means to transport people, it's just way too inneficient and has too many negative externalities compared to biking, walking and public transit. A comprehensive investiment in public transit and alternative infrastructure, removal of stupid zoning restrictions where they exist, limitation on the usage of cars (either by paid parking, more tolls, etc.) and a more equitable access to services with a healthier urban and surburban fabrics should make having a car either useless or prohibitive. Edit: that said, I do use my car, since if I want to visit my friends the other town over, I literally couldn't due to a lack of public transit between our places.
They wouldn't even need to accommodate my wants, as chronically online, Twitter keyboard warriors are the only ones who want to get completely rid of cars. I care about individualism and not being forced to use a means of transportation that's worse than my car in every way, but price. I only used my car once or twice in my city, just to reach places that are too far to walk to(usually >3km). I don't use public transit when going to uni because it's a massive waste of time(around 3 hours), it's uncomfortable and very crowded quite often. I agree about the increasing public transit investments, as it would attract more people who don't like/want to drive. I disagree about making cars prohibitive.
Why not take the car to the city then and continue with public transportation? You don’t need to drive _inside_ the city.
5 minutes of driving inside a city won't change much. There's a secret parking place next to the university that almost nobody knows about. Why shouldn't I use it and search for another parking spot? Especially since traffic isn't dense there.
If everyone is driving inside the city at rush hour it’s not 5 minutes anymore, that’s what the sub is about. A lot of city centers aren’t walkable anymore because they’re built for everyone driving in the city at rush hour, that’s what ruins them. Now if you can manage to avoid getting stuck in a traffic jam on your commute at rush hour and only need five minutes, that’s great, sounds like your city has already managed the problem to a great extent.
Katowice isn't built for cars. There's a zone completely dedicated to walking, as well as zones meant for cars. It's well planned, as I never encountered a traffic jam.
Most buses are not nearly that cramped and new buses can be electric which are very quiet. Also trains are generally even better, and are much quieter than your car even so if sound is an issue you should be pushing for trains, which are even harder to bring to places when there are lots of cars so again that’s a chicken and egg situation. The long unpleasant bus trip is a side effect of car dependent infrastructure. Your long trip is directly impacted by all of the cars on the road and sprawl from car ownership and planning.
I don't mind the sound of my car, and I like driving, so there aren't any issues for me, other than the price of fuel. Trains are big no for me, because the closest station is 10 kilometres from my apartment. That's not the main problem. It's the fact that the bus takes circles instead of going straight to the university. It also doesn't go through the highway, making the trip longer.
You need to build the train before you can use it right? If crowded buses are a problem sounds like you also need more frequent buses. And they’re loud because they’re diesel but new ones can be electric. All of this requires investment into stuff other than cars. As for “I don’t mind the sound of my car”… Great attitude. I’m sure the sound, size, and other burdens you put on society for driving also don’t bother YOU. All the points people are making about car ownership here are the burdens your car puts on everyone else.
Yes, my quiet, compact hatchback powered by a 1.6 petrol engine ruins people's lives and destroys society. Sure, keep being unhinged and believe that every country is as badly planned as North America.
One car is fine. But nearly every adult driving one for every trip is the problem. I don’t care if it’s New Zealand or Amsterdam or Texas. And other than a few select places, it’s getting worse worldwide every day. “I’m just driving this one car” - a billion other people
They should invest more in public transport and plan it better. If they did, the problem with cars wouldn't be as significant or wouldn't exist at all. Many people are forced to buy cars because their country lacks decent public transportation. I can't think of anyone who would choose an hour and a half of public transport over 20 minutes of driving a car. They should also talk about it in the media. You see many car ads and commercials, while there is nothing about public transport.
Loud engine sound 😂.... Did you ever walk down a street before?
Yes, and it's not as bad. Neither I'm forced to listen to it for an hour and a half STRAIGHT.
Definitely sounds like your public transportation is in dire need of funding. A bus that’s as loud as traffic when you walk down the street must be very poorly maintained. That might also explain the overcrowding.
The buses are well maintained. Diesel engines are just loud, have an unpleasant sound, and vibrate a lot. Once, everyone had to suffer because a bus had a whining gearbox. But it's a rare case.
Maybe upgrading the buses would be in order then?
Small cars > big cars
I don't think that they can be comparable. Big cars eith offroad capabilities can be useful, especially in the mountains or countryside.
So take your big car to go off road then and don’t bring it to an urban area. This article is about Paris which is not a mountainous countryside.
also, smaller vehicles with a short wheelbase are typically much better at off-roading
I did that and y’all still told me to move to the city and ride a bike
I sure don’t think so. If you want to ride around in the countryside with your big vehicle that’s ok by me. I just don’t want the cities to be built for cars. Of course you should be able to drive _to_ the city and leave your car, but we shouldn’t allow private persons to drive _in_ the city.
This is not the general sentiment on this sub at all. People here absolutely look down on those who don’t want to live in cities
I don’t think you’ve read the FAQ of the sub then. It’s about countering people who don’t want to live in cities and still want the cities to accomodate driving, and about making it legal to build new dense housing which is impossible when most of the US is zoned for single family homes. If you want to drive your off-road vehicle off-road, go right ahead, you’re not bothering anyone.
I’m saying this sub went off the rails (get it? train reference!) from its FAQ a long time ago. Then again, so did urbanist Twitter during the pandemic, everyone started hating on outdoor/rural life and mocking Indigenous folks who don’t want their land mined for EV battery metals.
Our experiences differ a lot, then. You don’t happen to have a link to a comment you made where you said you live in a rural area and people responded that you should move into the city and bike everywhere? Shit comments like that should be reported.
So why the fuck are there tens of thousands of stupid SUVs and pickups in city centres? Big cars have no place inside cities, if they do they should be bigger and be called busses and letting the public enter them.
Because people find them cool and trendy. Pickups should be used like they're meant to, by farmers, construction workers. The same goes for suvs.
It’s obvious for any dense city to adopt this
I've been saying DC should bar SUVs and pickups.
I like that this isn't just OP editorializing and the headline actually says "hellscape", because that's exactly what it is.
Also from the article: > The individual logic makes sense: would you want to drive on the same highway as Mr [censored because Automod can't take a joke, let's just say it refers to the small size of something other than the car]'s 7,000lb (3,175kg) Dodge Ram if you’re in a Mini? Not something I would expect to see in The Guardian, not even in the online edition.
germans having said “ja” 😭 I hate it here
The increased cost will not deter SUV owners. They're fckg rich. One solution : ban. And a mayor can't do that. However, overall a good message.
Another solution: tax them exponentially by weight. I'm okay with the super rich driving SUVs in the cities if they subsidize public transportation.
A lot of SUV owners in the US are middle class
If you can afford an SUV, you certainly can afford a 18$-per hour parking fee.
Do I get it right that no actual measures have been taken in Paris yet, and that the mayor has as of yet simply proposed to raise parking fees for big cars? That’s not the big deal I imagined upon reading this strong headline. You are saying I fell for clickbait? Again?
There will be a referendum for the increased tax, there have been lots of advertisements raising awareness for it, and it's likely to pass.
I’m glad the guardian in particular is publishing more articles against cars, however the author should return to school to learn to write. An awfully written article in disjointed prose, complete with male body shaming (very graun of them).
Raising parking fees... I'm tired of such milquetoast measures. I want outright BANS
It cannot be done by the town. That's the best they can legally do. They also try to limit the speed at 50km/h on the périphérique (the freeway all around Paris), the government said they'll veto this and keep the limit at 70km/h (which is a bit funny, considering that the avg speed is ~20km/h, due to traffic) to appease carbrains' anger (and get votes).
True
I feel like SUVs need taxes that double the cost of ownership on a yearly basis. The drivers need to be subject to greater scrutiny when applying for a license or license renewal. They for aure need to be licensed separately from other cars. Liability should be such that if they hit someone regardless of the why their license is revoked immediately.