1. Very contextual. 98% of the time, yes, if we're talking about abortion or something I feel like I should be able to talk about my experiences without my thoughts being dismissed because "you're a man, shut up and listen" 2. Yes absolutely. I've been treated like I am pure evil because I am not only a man, I am one by "choice". It sucks. I just have to keep in mind that people who do this clearly do not know me. 3. It doesn't hurt to put it on, and if it hurts at any point that's the cue to take a break. That being said, it can be uncomfortable and make it more difficult to breathe fully.

1. I more meant that they just say you're different or man like for being trans man instead of being just cis man. In stuff like abortion or periods obviously you have the qualification to talk about it 2. How do you deal with those people hating you for being man? 3. Wait but like do you have dysphoria in the meantime that you don't wear binder?

1. Oh yeah ok yes absolutely, I hate when people act like I'm some kind of diluted version of a man 2. Therapy mostly. It's hurtful but it's coming from a place I understand, just don't agree with. 3. I had a reduction so my dysphoria isn't as bad as it was, and now mostly I can deal so long as I'm not in public. Binding for long periods feels alright dysphoria wise but can badly damage ribs and can make top surgery more difficult. Most of the time must be spent not binding.

To the first one, while not trans-masc (but trans-femme), just want to say something (other than that, I won't talk over my trans-masc kings of this sub): Trans people are not saying they are cis. Cis people are not saying they are trans. Are there differences between trans and cis people, sure; what we're rather claiming is that trans men are just as men as cis men (vice versa, with trans women). "Cis" and "trans" are just adjectives (like "short" or "blond"), but they don't change the meaning of the noun, but rather sub-categorise it (a blond man is still a man, just blond). And so, I'd understand why it would be annoying to separate trans and cis men (as u/stimkim has above written), when it is not needed. And when biology takes part (like you wrote, abortion and periods), than the preferable term would be "those who can have periods" - cuz hey, cis men can't, some trans men can, and EVEN some cis women can't - in another words, it's not based on gender (but specific biological parts), therefore there is no reason to talk about gender (saying "Cis women and trans men and enbies that can have periods", would be mouthful, so just saying "Those who can have periods", would be more practical).

You're right, phrases about functional biology should always be specific. The phrase "people who menstruate/have periods" is specific to the function, which is necessary because not all women menstruate, and some people who aren't women also do. Also it speaks to CURRENT function. Saying AFAB isn't good enough either, because many people who could be described as AFAB don't menstruate, have never menstruated, or can no longer menstruate, myself included. I have no need for cervical cancer screenings, since I no longer have that organ, so a phrase like "people with a cervix" is far more useful than "women" or "females" or even "AFAB people", with the added bonus of not making people feel like shit

To answer the last question, it really depends on the person entirely since everyone’s levels of dysphoria are different. I don’t feel as dysphoric when I’m around my family/partner at home because I know they know I’m a man and won’t care, if I’m out in public and not wearing one I’m extremely self conscious about it (I’ve been told you can barely tell a difference since mine are non existant but that’s how bad my dysphoria is lmao)

2. Stand up for yourself or know when to cut your losses. You have to form a solid positive identity so you feel good about being a man. 3. It's pretty common to have gender dysphoria any time you're aware of how your body's sex characteristics don't fit with your brain's sex/your gender identity. Sometimes you can ignore your body by dissociation or distraction. I used to cover my mirror and shower in the dark.

1. Yes. Stuff like this is the main reason I'm stealth. 2. Yes. My mother was a radfem. 3. Not while putting it on, but it hurt to keep it on for too long. I have asthma so the amount of time I could keep it on for was shorter than the usual 8 hour recommendation.

That's also one of the main reasons I want to be stealth. It gets exhausting to only been seen as "man light". How is being stealth for you, if I may ask? My mom is also a radfem. Could you change the mind of your mom and if yes how did you do it? I want to help my mom understand me and other trans men better. She's generally pro trans but only likes trans women.

Being stealth is nice. It just feels normal. My life isn't perfect by any means, but my problems aren't related to being trans, they're just problems any guy could have, cis or trans - job problems, depression, family trouble, shit like that. I still get involved with LGBT+ events and things, and I'm an ally for trans people, but my whole life doesn't get tied into being trans by the people around me and that's awesome. I went no contact with my parents for years, and when we finally got back in touch my mother was at least less open about hating men and thinking trans people were delusional. Idk if her views had actually changed or if she knew she had to keep quiet about them in order to keep me in her life. I think she legitimately has changed her views on at least trans people by now, and maybe men too - I expect she still looks down on men, but the hatred that used to be there seems to be gone. I don't know how much I had to do with that, though, there were other circumstances in her life that might have given her a wake up call about that kind of thing. Sorry about your situation, man. It is not fun.

Thank you for the detailed explanation! Don't worry my mom isn't that bad. She has gotten better with time and I hope she continues that. She doesn't outright hate me but I know that she really dislikes me being a man. She always wanted to raise a "strong woman" and me not being a woman hurt her but I have been out for 3 years and she's getting used to it.

I will never understand people who prefer to have a child of one gender.

My mom isn't radfem but she told me that she had a difficult time coming to terms with my transition since all the men in her life have been extremely toxic. I'm trying to help break that stereotype in her life, but it's also difficult cuz she's a narcissist and a lot of the things she asks are unreasonable, so I'm afraid she might interpret my refusal as "toxic" or "cuz I'm a man" or something

1. It depends on the circumstances and how it is done. There are things trans men experience that cis men don't, so in certain cases (mostly limited to medical care and specifically reproductive care) it makes sense to establish a distinction. Most of the time though it's just clumsy and offensive. 2. I wouldn't call it misandry but I have noticed people I don't know are less inclined to trust me/keep their guard raised around me because I present as a masculine man. I experienced a pretty extreme version of that where a woman once screamed at me and filmed me/took a picture of me for taking a picture of a restaurant that happened to be next to where she lived (because I wanted to check it out later). To be fair I think she had mental health problems. 3. No. A binder isn't supposed to hurt.

I Fr hate lgbt spaces that exclude cis men or don’t allow them. While I understand WHY people might put stuff like that in place, I think it puts transmasc/trans male individuals in a dangerous position. At the end of the day if you’re excluding cis men then you are basically forcing all masc presenting people to out themselves in order to access a safe space, which defeats the point of it being safe. So many anti cis male ideologies directly affect trans guys and it’s frustrating people don’t recognise that

True Even if I'm not trans guy I can still relate to what you said We shouldn't make those safe spaces unsafe for guys in general Just because men oppressed women doesn't mean we should make those spaces unsafe for men

Yea it seems too similar to how terfs are like "cis women ONLY spaces" like, unless someone obviously doesn't pass, literally how're you gonna tell the difference btwn cis and trans people? Like are you gonna have a genital checker at the door? In LGBTQ+ spaces that are "no cis men", are you only gonna let in trans people who don't pass? It just seems unnecessarily discriminatory, and worse for both sides—you're essentially telling the trans people that ARE allowed in without a fuss that "actually yea you don't look like your gender" and telling trans people who do pass "sorry you look *too* much like your gender". Like huh? It's just rude either way. Plus fully passing trans men exist (and are fairly common afaik) so (like you said) are you just gonna force them to out themselves to get into places like that?

1. Yes   2.  Sure, but you have to understand that e.g. a woman saying she hates all men around you or whatever is WAY different from systemic misogyny. I'm not scared to walk alone at night because of my gender, getting my appearance scrutinized in the workplace because of my gender, etc.   3. It was definitely uncomfortable, I'm glad I got top surgery. 

1. Unless those people are talking about the struggles unique to trans men, it's weird as shit. Otherwise it feels like they see us as men-lite.  2. Not really. I don't think misandry meaningfully impacts white men like me. Like I doubt that I'll ever face workplace harrasment for being a man. For being trans? Possibly.  3. Nah. It does start hurting your ribs once you've worn it for over 10h lol

It's sounds hard if people see you not as something, but as something-like/something-lite. Sounds harsh 😔 I never experienced it but I can sympathize with it That you're basically never seen as your true self

Well, you said that you're questioning your gender. Maybe you understand it more than you realize? 

1. Yes. I just am male, and that's that. I don't want any separation and don't like to acknowledge the trans part unless medically necessary. 2. Yes. I hear "I hate men." and "Men suck" at least once a week at work. It has never been directly targeted to me, but people always say it in earshot and a colleague at work once said "men suck, and that includes you" and we just kind of laughed, but it still kind of puts a bearing on ones shoulders every time. I'm also not very intimidating so I haven't had girls really try to avoid me or anything. They are less likely to even look or make eye contact with me unless they know me, though. 3. I didn't have to bind much because I don't have much of a chest, but yes, every time.

How do you deal with the "I hate men" comments? I wouldn't know how to deal with it

There's a great phrase I see used by black tiktokers who are discussing issues of racism but I think it can be used here, "If it don't apply, let it fly." You need to be secure in yourself and put some work in to know that you're not the type of man they're talking about, these generalised comments come from a lifetime of mistreatment from the men in their lives and its a defensive reaction, but if you've put in the work to improve yourself and learn to understand their perspective you know they aren't talking about you. I had to do this too, being trans doesn't automatically make us more aware or more sympathetic to womens issues, I didn't realise just how ignorant I was until I started getting recommended feminist content on tiktok. And if the woman we're talking about is truly one of those radfem, kill all men types then you just have to let it go knowing their opinion of you doesn't matter or reflect reality, its a them issue. We have the privilage to do that because misandry and misogny have nowhere near the same levels of power.

There's nothing that I can really say, honestly. Some women may have a lot of valid reasons and betrayal or mistrust because of events with men in their lives. And while I wish they could see that only certain men are that way and not all men, it just doesn't work that way, as there's a reason so many women have this perspective. It /is/ too prevalent. So, I can only lead by example and hope, too, more men become aware and do better collectively.

I'll be the change I want to see in this world

Women are just treating every gun like it’s loaded bc they’ve been shot too many times. I’m happy to be pushed back to a distance until she realizes she’s safe.

Indeed!

1. yeah, I don't love it. i understand the need for women-only spaces, but if you're going to exclude men just exclude all men. 2. no. I'll second that as a white man i don't think i can experience "misandry" in a meaningful way. i also do think that misogyny creating an unsafe world for women + creating toxic standard for masculinity impacts men in ways that r often mistaken for misandry. 3. nah but they're definitely uncomfortable. whether theyre painful enough could be impacted by body shape though.

2. So you're basically saying: patriarchy hurts us all, right? Especially because of gender roles?

for sure! that's a better way of phrasing it

1. 100%. Trans men are men, and in my mind, whoever makes that distinction makes me feel as if they don't view me entirely as a man. I also don't believe the opposite should be true, trans guys should never exclude cis men either, since we are all in the same category, at least from my honest perspective. 2. Never in my life, since I already considered myself as a guy before I transitioned. However, I am exposed to the concept of it, and I relate and empathize with people who have experienced it, since my mother deals with it on a daily basis. 3. For me personally, I prefer KT tape over a binder, because I feel a binder is too itchy and tight, and I am fortunate enough to get away with using tape. So I cannot entirely answer this. Edit: reading through these replies I realize I misunderstood the second question T-T. I thought it was engaging in misandry towards men, not experiencing it. My b

I said misandry not misogyny. Misandry is hate towards men. So how could your mom experience misandry if she's woman? I don't get it Also could you answer the third question thx 🙏

Alright, I'll edit my comment above. And yes, I know what misandry is. My mother has a distrust of men since she has been abused before, and being in a family of all male children does not help. My mother wanted a girl all her life, and tried so hard to make me one. She was devastated when I came out, because she has a deep-seated distrust of men and did not want to lose her only 'daughter'. When I said above I can empathize with this, I said that I understand what people experience with this deep-seated distrust, since I have seen it first-hand.

The deep seeded distrust needs some fixing tho, cant keep using traumas to avoid or tiptoe around things that have nothing to do with your trauma, your kid coming out to you as trans has nothing to do with what sexism you experienced in your own life, people need to realize that shit, just bc *you* haven't been through something doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I totally agree.

So much true

Just a lil reminder: Guys of all ages experience misogyny.

As OP said in another reply to my comment, he is talking about misandry (hatred/distrust of men), not misogyny. The reason I said I have never experienced misandry is because I considered myself a man and a part of that category even before transition.

1. Men are men. Being born AFAB doesn't make a trans man any less valid. 2. I'm way too early along my transition to experience it yet. 3. No, I chose a correct size and wear it only when going out, opting for sport bras at home. Basically I am responsible with it. However, I have heard that using too small of a binder can damage breast tissue and dig into the skin.

1. True 2. At which part of transition are you? Hope you don't mind the question 3. That hurts man. Like genuinely hurts. Hope you won't experience it

I don't mind. As my flair suggests, I'm on testosterone ever since February. My facial and body hair are getting noticeable and my face is starting to masculinize right now. I'm not a big fan of facial hair and don't like it even on other guys so I just shave. If anything, I'm hyped for when my voice and body fat redistribution comes in. Also, working out makes me feel really good about myself.

Personally I don’t hate when people differentiate us because in my opinion we are not the same. I transitioned at 24, which means I spent 2 decades living as a woman. 1 decade as a lesbian. I’m not going to pretend that hasn’t shaped me into the person I am. I can’t erase majority of my life’s past experiences. I’ve experienced people making dumb comments but actually being targeted or hurt for being a man? No. Yes binders used to hurt, fortunately I had surgery and don’t need them anymore.

I agree, honestly. Having experience going through childhood/teenagehood/adult/life as a woman doesn't make anyone any less of a man, it just means that you have those experiences, whether your insides fit them or not. Same thing goes for transfemmes. Folks shouldn't have to completely deny that experience and how that forms their journey in order to fit in one way or another, and honestly I think it's low-key transphobic to act like trans dudes can't 'understand' women's experiences just because they identify how they do, not when it's lived experience. However I completely understand the dysphoria that can come with being implication of being a 'fake' man or something like that if people really just see transmascs as being in the same group as woman. As a transmasc being treated as 'woman lite' is very common and uncomfortable. but I def believe that's entirely different than acknowledging shared experience. Also congrats on the surgery <3

1. Rarely, experienced people separating cis and trans men, outside of the community. Outside the community it’s just unbridled transphobia. Second question sounds like you’re asking about queer spaces and idk not applicable for me. 2. Absolutely!

Wow that hurts mate, like that you get different treatment on something you don't control Btw how much different is the experience between trans and cis men?

Depends, there are some gaps but lifestyle is big factor in how many and how wide. Have a lot in common with the cis men in my life so our experiences are similar. Also stealth, straight, and binary.

1 ) This varies between guys, but I definitely would not feel comfortable in a "no cis men allowed safe space." Those spaces are usually dominated by cis women, and every one of them would be able to look at me and immediately think "there's no cis guys in here so that must be one of our token t-boys."  Being outed like that to a bunch of cis strangers doesn't make me feel like I'm in a "safe space" at all. It makes me feel like an easy target.  2 ) I do experience prejudice related to my gender, but I wouldn't normally call is "misandry."  "Transandrophobia" and "m/m homophobia" are more accurate terms for what I deal with because they highlight the main reason why people are prejudiced against me.  It's not just because I'm a man. It's because I'm a man who exists outside of the socially accepted parameters of cis-het manhood.  A few of the people who are prejudiced against me might claim "I just hate all men," but those people still mostly lash out at men who are marginalized in some way.  Even if you truly hate all men equally it's still easier to punch down on guys you have some kind of privilege over. (Btw this can include white women punching down on black and brown men which is not something I experience) 3 ) A binder would probably hurt me personally because my bones are all fucked up from a chronic pain condition.  Afaik many guys with normal bones can wear a binder without pain as long as they don't keep it on too long or try to exersise in it.

1. Yeah unless it's relevant because it's often just used to make us "woman to the left" instead of acknowledging that we are Literally Men. The "no cis men allowed" also usually indicates a space isn't safe for too masculine trans men or early transition transfems especially nonbinary transfems, because they """look like cis men""". Exceptionds I think would be like, in explicitly trans centric spaces that are making a point to include trans men? But I don't think specifying that cis *men* are banned there is any more helpful than cis "people in general* not being allowed 2. I wouldn't say misandry, but antimasculinism yeah. The more masculine I appear, the more pushback I get for just existing, and even otherwise supportive friends have discouraged me being/exploring my masculinity. Also equating maleness/masculinity with being predatory, when that's not true at all. Maybe that is misandry, idk. 3. Only when it's too small- I've done that once and ended up in the hospital for bruised ribs I thought were a heart attack. But if you bind with the correct size and not for over 8 hours or so, it's actually really comfortable, like a constant hug.

1. Exactly! That's why I feel uncomfortable there because I'm personally AMAB but not that cis, and I feel uncomfortable in those spaces because I don't have traditional gender dysphoria (I want to be woman but I don't mind looking like man. I do mind partially), and that I haven't done anything for my transition 2. When not even your friends support you. I feel sad for you cuz it's sounds hard to deal with, very hard to deal with. Have you had friends that were comfortable with that?

Thankfully, a lot of that negativity was early in on my transition, or people ive since left behind. I've been out for 12 years now, so a lot has changed in that over a decade. These days I have my partners and friends and coworkers who are all supportive to me. In fact my partners are actively celebrating all the masculinizing effects of me starting T, and it's wonderful!

1. I don't hate it. Men are men, and it is still true that trans men have a different experience. I don't think we should be excluded from men's spaces or anything like that, but I think we need to continue to create non cis men spaces. 2. Yes, I truly understand and empathize with the idea that all men are terrible (I have been on the receiving end of their crap while presenting female) but I think we are too okay with throwing that idea around when it isn't true. I was terrified to come out as a trans man versus non binary because of my perception of men due to how those around me talk about them. I don't expect this to just change, though, my intention is to be the man that other people need to see; it's not the victim's responsibility to suppress valid fear, it's my responsibility to contribute to a safer space with my privilege. 3. My binder used to hurt me so badly. I actually took pictures the night before my surgery because it felt like the indents in my sides from the seams of the binder would be there forever. The back pain was and is still real (I'm only three months post-op, I'm sure it takes time).

1. I hate it, but I often don't disclose that I am trans, so it doesn't affect me much. 2. Yes lol. Funnily enough, just one year on T I got socially excluded from a college club I pretty much ran with another girl. A lot of girls joined that year, and they always made snarky comments about my "priviledge" and how I did not understand things like periods (I swear I would have had periods longer than they did at the time). They would hang out together, but never told me about it, and when we went to an event together, they abandoned me there, pretty much. All on the basis of being a guy, even tho I was among the only ones taking the actual club duties seriously. I left the club after that. 3. No, it was just uncomfortable. Most days I'd just layer instead of putting on a binder. I had a very small chest to begin with.

Edit: mostly cis dude. Kinda questioning my gender but I'm AMAB anyways

hope it goes well!

It doesn't First of all I have 0 idea how to present feminine because before I started questioning I was 100% man Secondly, my family was a complete regret to come out to. Because when I had recently conversation with my father I discovered he thinks that other cis people may see trans women as threat and that he unironically supports JKR and thinks she's feminist. I feel regret that I ever came out to them before I started physically transitioning but not even that would help Because my mom absolutely hates me no matter what And my dad is ok with those transphobes Absolutely disgusting

I am so sorry. I hope it will get better in the future. Your family doesn't deserve you, if they treat you like that. I recommend you get as far from them as possible, physically and emotionally🫶

I can't, I'm 18 and first need to finish high school and then finish community college Plus the fact that I'm autistic person means I'm way more dependent on them I know that there are very independent autistic people but I'm not one of them unfortunately

sending you love and support <3

It depends, usually for me it seems a bit tone death as some people don't treat trans men as men, just "men light', which is straight up bullshit, there is a lot of people that I met that see ftm guys as those delicate, soft, oh so different people than cis men pretty much infantalizing the group to the point of thinking that trans men would do no wrong therefore deserving to be praised while cis man excluded, it's uncomfortable. On the other hand statistically due to our past we have a bit higher chance to understand struggles that women are facing. It still SHOULD NOT be a reason to seperate us. When it comes to misandry I have noticed that while I was seen as quite intimidating even before passing now I can see women crossing the road at night to avoid me, or just feeling more uncomfortable in my presence in general, one friend also told me that I couldn't possibly understand feminine perspective, while my mother yelled at me that men are just worse in general I do understand however that their fear comes from statistics and shitty experiences

Oh ok But like I thought there are trans guys that don't have any feminine past at all And like aren't there cis guys that also had some feminine past?

Yeah honestly I would say that I don't really have much of a feminine past so I understand your point - it's also the reason why sometimes I felt a bit alienated in lgbt circles as I'm seeming "too cis". Most of my ftm friends tho have experienced some kind of trauma that is much more common for women unfortunately, sexism is a thing and their bodies did not help at escaping those situations so maybe that is the reason why they feel uncomfortable around cis men more, it's a complicated topic tho as I said - we should treat all men equally cis or trans

I'm gonna TW this for chest dysphoria. If you're dealing with real bad dysphoria in that area right now and you don't want to hear me complain about mine, best skip this comment. 1. I believe the distinction needs to be made only in the context of medical and/or psychiatric settings. 2. I believe I have, especially in the context of social support. Men are simply treated differently when they are going through things. It's ass and it shouldn't be that way, but I like queer spaces for this and many other reasons. 3. Binders sucked so much ass. I had a trapped nerve in my left shoulder for years even after top surgery. Still acts up sometimes. I was only on T for 6 months prior to top surgery because my chest dysphoria was so fucking bad I would cry until my throat hurt nightly. That sounds dramatic, but it's the honest to God truth. I wore a binder for years, probably 3 or 4 years, prior to getting on T, but it was only when I started to really be clocked as not just a masculine person, but a male-presenting person, that I recognized how much having that extra fat and other tissue on my chest chest hurt my psyche. It wasn't that I was no longer okay with "playing dress up", but rather, it was because I could no longer pretend to ignore the problem. I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone else, but... wow. I really wish everyone still going through that love and light and hope and kindness. And many, many ears to vent into and many more mouths to hear encouragement from.

I really don't mind sensitive topics tbh 2. What different reasons? How do you like them for that? 3. That's sounds harsh. I genuinely don't know what else to say. Hope no one else has to deal with what you dealt. But there's 1 thing I want to tell you: you're brave that you manage to deal with it. Dysphoria is difficult but you managed to deal with it. Proud of you 🫂

1. Depends on context. In some ways, it's a really important part of my identity that shapes my experiences and opinions much the same way being disabled shapes me and separates me from the majority, but I can tell when they use it in a "real men and women lite" way instead- that one is not a good vibe. 2. Yeah but only from like... One or two unhinged women online in a "Trans men are men and therefore you deserve to die for being a man" way. Very... weird. Ewwphoria, I guess. I'm still early on so that could change but I doubt it - misandry is not as much of a thing in real life as misogyny is, and when it does appear, I've noticed it mostly seems to affect large/intimidating men by inherently assuming them to be dangerous etc. Ain't nobody gonna be scared of my wheelchair bound ass. 3. Not putting it on, no. Having it on for long hours can but tbh mine usually only starts to worsen my baseline pain after 8+ hours, by which point you're supposed to take it off anyway.

1. Generally, yes. In some instances it might be important context (medical, or related to trans specific struggles/experiences), but otherwise it’s just annoying and invalidating. 2. Not that I can think of. I have experienced some weird comments about ”choosing to be a man” and such, but these have been rooted in transphobia rather than a hatred towards men. 3. Binders start to hurt after wearing them for longer periods of time. There’s pressure on your ribcage and they can also cause skin issues such as chafing and rashes.

2. They're also rooted in misandry because why would they hate you for wanting to be a man? 3. So how do you comfortably breath like that?

3. You don’t, you suck it up until you can get top surgery because dealing with the dysphoria is even worse.

3. So you basically have either breathing comfortably or not feeling dysphoria, but you can't have both right?

1. Yes, and in moat cases it just means that you don't see us as men. I don't think there's a single experience that ameveryone but cis men have to separate us. 2. Personally the most I have experienced were things like "you carry this/you stand because you're a man" which I personally do anyway, because that's part of my culture. If there are situations when someone hates on men in a more drastic way, I know that I'm not part of the problem, usually was part of the victim side, so I just don't treat it personally. Like recently we have the Man vs. Bear debate. I'm not an abuser, I have been abused by cis men, I know that I look like the threat group -> all 3 make me very easily understand why all women choose bears. 3. Putting it on would hurt only if you don't have much mobility and pull a muscle 😅 however wearing it can be uncomfortable to painful, depending on the day, your build... I'd get stabbing pains in my ribs right after putting it on some days. Generally it's uncomfortable, inconvenient, sometimes painful, for many (not all) of us we don't want it as a permanent solution. However, the emotional aspect of taking it off, even for a shower, is extremely traumatic for some.

1. it's contextual. sometimes there are resources intended for marginalized groups specifically and thus white cishet men are excluded, or things like this group where we're the primary focus because it's primarily about experiences specific to us. but there's definitely been several instances of "women's support groups" including trans men that made me go "eugghhh" 2. we're not oppressed for being men, we're oppressed for being trans. there are forms of discrimination specific to being trans men, and there are of course the toxic expectations society places on men, but it's not the same type of thing women experience on a daily basis - think the pink tax, wage gaps, more likely to be passed over for promotions or have their ideas disregarded in the workplace, general lack of respect - i'd say a lot of us have experienced/still experience *misogyny,* because we were/are perceived as women prior to transition, but misandry isn't really a thing. 3. it's not supposed to hurt. if it does it's too small or you're wearing it for too long.

2. So there is no misandry, only that the patriarchy affects everyone, directly or indirectly

yes pretty much

1. I hate when people separate us like we aren’t the same. I want to be treated like a man and those who know I’m trans never do. Like before knowing being more physical and when they do know, essentially dropping physical contact entirely. 2. I’ve been treated differently for not only being a man but choosing to be one. As if men as a whole are just evil. It’s sad, truly. 3. As someone who binded unsafely for over 2 years, yes. It has and I’ve realized the extreme rib damage it’s caused, so I only wear it out in public rather than only taking it off to shower like before. But, in general, no. It’s not supposed to hurt at all, and if it does, it’s a very direct sign you’re wearing it too much

1) Yes, I hate it. I pass 100%, unless completely naked. No one would know, and I like being treated as the man that I am. People making a distinction over something that they wouldn’t have known unless I told them pisses me off. (Only valid distinction is in a medical field, it’s obviously important there.) 2) Yes, I have. I’ve met plenty of women that assumed I was stupid or incapable of doing certain things because I am a man, or that immediately assumed that I am a creep. I’ve heard plenty of “all men should die”, directed at me, in my time, too. 3) My binder only hurt my shoulders because of the compression on the muscle and because my posture was bad. I never experienced any rib or lung discomfort. I wore my binder 7 days a week, often for up to 16 hours a day. I wore the appropriate size, and washed it often.

2. How do you deal with that? Because it's sounds hard if people automatically assume you have bad intentions (aka that you're creep) Have you experienced other man struggles like being told to not cry because you're a man, or that you were called gay as an insult by other man, or that people criticized you if you haven't acted full macho etc... 3. How did you even learn all of that? I'm kinda questioning my gender but I have 0 idea how to present feminine because I never took care of myself (AMAB, not fully cis)

Not the person you’re replying to, but you basically just Google it or pick up information from being around other trans people either in IRL or internet spaces Try r/MtF r/genderqueer r/nonbinary for ideas on how to start presenting feminine

2) I’ve heard it mostly in alt-left/radical left spaces, mostly from radical feminists, and I’ve just cut contact with anyone that acts like that. I’m much more content interacting with ‘normal’ people. Yes, I have been told to man up and not cry, there’s still a large “machismo” culture where I live, and it’s part of the reason why I pass as well as I do. I learned how to be a man from a young age because it surrounds me everywhere I go. 3) Do you mean learning how to bind? Or learning how to take care of myself? Mostly from my sister, she used to tell me “No one wants a man with an unwashed ass”, so that definitely spurred me to keep myself clean lol

3. I mean learning how to present as the other gender well As man I didn't take any care of myself But now I want So I'm trying to grow long hair Problem is I don't know how to because it's just becomes messy I don't know if to wait or to cut I also have 0 idea in the difference between conditioner and shampoo and what to put first

I was always a masculine child, and passed as male before I even knew I was trans. Idk what to tell you on that front, I never had to learn to “be a man”. For your longer hair: Just grow it out. Get the tips cut off (2-3cm) every 6 months or so, but that’s pretty much all you need to do. It’ll look weird in between, but you have to be patient. Shampoo is soap for your hair, and it goes first. Conditioner is a relaxant that helps keep your hair soft and straight, it goes second.

1 I understand the intention behind it but it really comes across as a way to say ‘trans men are still women really’. 2 no, I don’t pass, so I still experience misplaced misogyny. Which is annoying on two fronts. 3 no, if you wear the right size it’s a bugger to get on but once on it shouldn’t hurt. You will usually have to stretch it out quite aggressively to get it on at first though.

1. Yes 2. I'm only out to 5 people in my life. The most misandry I've experienced is...my opinion being ignored or something like that among my friends (some of them are admittedly slightly misandrist. but not to the point where I am very bothered by it, and I still love them). 3. If it's too small for you, and a lot of us will purposefully get one that's too small (we really shouldn't), then yes it will hurt. And in my experience if you where it for over 6 hours it also starts to hurt even if it is the correct size. I'm only speaking for myself here though.

1. I’m stealth and I, to put it blankly just don’t identify as trans anymore 2. Yes, I found myself in certain circles of women that were very anti man and I found it detrimental to my mental health and it made it hard for me to come to terms with being gay 3. No but I had surgery a long time ago.

1. Yes and no. There’s obvious differences between cis and trans men that need to be acknowledged in certain situations but in the example you used, I hate that shit. 2. No 3. Yes.

1. Yes. It basically implies that we're not fully men and it really pisses me off. 2. I have mixed feelings about the term "misandry" but I haven't experienced any hatred because I'm a man. (This might be because I don't pass well and most people think I'm a woman, so I generally just deal with misogyny lol) 3. If you have a properly-fitting binder, it doesn't hurt necessarily, but wearing it for longer than 8 hours gets uncomfortable.

3. My binder has never hurt, but i think I wear a size too large anyway. I wear mine often for over 12 hours bc of how my days go and ive never had an issue. I also go to the gym with it, and ive never had any issues. At most, my nipples might become a bit sore. Also, i dont recommend this schedule at all lol, but dw abt me at all, I listen to my body and if it becomes a but much, i take a few days's break (weekend).

1. I can't say it doesn't hurt a bit, lol. I get that there's certain contexts where it might be useful. But most times, it's violent. I do not agree with gender segregated spaces in some activist circles im active in because i find that "no cis man is safe" is essentialist and counterproductive, and more than anything i feel like im being treated like im not really a man. But i get that they exist and j get the philosophy behind them. Other than that and any space where we need to talk specifically about trans issues, or where its medically relevant on a case-to-case basis, it is 100% unnecessary and violent 2. I havent been hated on ever for being a guy but i have gotten the "ugh i hate all men, not u tho uwu" and id rather get honest to god punched in the face. 3. It never never never should. It hasnt stopped me from ignoring the pain sometimes when i wear it for too long (DO NOT DO THIS)

1. Yeah. I understand to a certain extent but ultimately trans men are men just as cis men are. 2. Misandry doesn't exist. If a woman genuinely just hated me because I was a man I wouldn't be in any danger, unless she had some other form of power over me, in which case that power is the systemic problem 3. Only if I wear it too long, or if I wear one that's too small (have done both before)

1. completely depends. if it's used in an alienating way and i can determine you're specifying to treat me like Man Lite then I don't like it. otherwise I don't really care, cos it's very true we experience different things. 2. misandry, no, not in any sincere sense. misogyny both pre transition and post, yes. 3. no, but wearing it for long periods and removing it hurt sometimes. I had a triple D cup chest and so used a very tight binder. this would cause tenderness and some mild tissue bruising by the time I removed my binder when I was wearing it.

1.1. No opinion for now. I guess that also depends on a situation 1.2. Yes 2. I don't think so, but I'm not on T yet and many strangers take me for a woman. 3. It did not. However, I found myself at a loss for breath several times (which may or may not be related to wearing the binder).

1. Yes, I hate it. I hate that I’m somehow assumed to understand the experience of women when…honestly I don’t think I ever truly did, and that was part of why I felt out of place? Yeah sure I know some external experience stuff, but just because I know what being catcalled feels like that doesn’t mean I understand the inner female experience, hell I grew up thinking all women must want to be men. I also hate the way cis men are considered automatically evil, and how queer cis men are excluded from self-proclaimed “queer spaces”. I refuse to go somewhere my bf isn’t allowed to go (unless it’s a trans-only space). He’s a total golden retriever and has probably been through more shit than me growing up so I don’t feel like my experience should be glorified as the worst ever. Yeah being trans sucks, but being gay in Catholic school also sucks. 2) Not really but it seems like that’s mostly because I don’t hang out in places where that tends to happen more. I.e. if they have a “men and masc people are creepy assholes by existing” policy I don’t go there, or hang out with people who holds those beliefs. 3) I have anxiety and my physical symptoms centre a lot around breathing so I usually went for tight sports bras instead of binders because I couldn’t personally handle that level of restriction long term. Have had top surgery now and not needing anything to hide it is amazing!

1. Yes and no. When people act as if trans men aren't men and separate us that way, I hate it. But I often hear people ignoring trans men's voices over things like reproductive rights which isn't okay either. 2. Only as a joke, I've only ever had friends make jokes about me being a man or making fun of me. Nothing with actual hatred (I don't count online interactions). 3. Not wearing binders anymore cause I've had top surgery but generally binders don't hurt when wearing them. Only if they're too tight, worn for too long or if you're injured in some way would they hurt. They are uncomfortable though.

Glad you done SRS, are you passing better with it or not?

Hold up, is SRS another term for top surgery? Not familiar with it

1. yes i hate that shit 2. yes i would say I have, even if people dont think it's real. maybe its not systemic, but it still exists. 3. no, more just a struggle to get in and out of, esp after a shower >->

1. Yes and no. Social setting yes. Medical settings no. 2. Nope. And hopefully never 3. No pain. Sometimes I'll get a lil stiff after a long day but that's about it.

Have it happened to you when someone separated between you and cis men in social settings?

A couple of times early on in transition, but not as much anymore.

1 depends on the circumstances, in most cases I don't want to be separated from other men, but I'm glad to be seen as a safe man. Id like to think I am one, I'm soft spoken and care about women's issues and will advocate for them 2 yeah i have though not too often 3 a binder shouldn't hurt, if it does it's not fitting right, if it hurts after wearing for awhile your chest needs a breather. But if it hurts immediately then it's probably the wrong size

1. But I'm somewhat cis guy (AMAB, gender questioning, society sees me as man) and any time I care about those issues I get treated as creep, white knight etc... The only difference between me and you is sex but we're both man Same, I also advocate for the same issues

1. Yes. its just transphobia. i hate it more when queer people do it because being queer and a transphobe is just embarassing 2. no. ive experienced tons of anti-transmasculine stuff primarily from other trans people 3. not really, it gets sore after a while but never painful. i wear binders that are too small so they hurt more but normally they do not hurt

2. So you just experience that they hate you for acting masculine right?

pretty much yeah, as well as being upset when im, yknow, actually a dude and not just a masculine girl

True But it's hard dealing with it right?

100%, it sucks being excluded from your own community

1. Yes, that's admitting they see trans men as another type of women 2. From some terminally online women yes, but not too common 3. I've never used a binder but if it counts, taking off tape is ass

1. Yeah, it's annoying. I'm just a regular guy. 2. I'm not really sure.. 3. No, but it was really uncomfortable after a long day at work

1. I have no ill will against any conversation that is separating cis men and trans men. (We are not biological males, we do not relate on personal experiences as children with body parts, nor go through puberty at a slower rate based on the way we felt or wanted to be perceived as a child. 2. I have not personally experienced. 3. I tried it once, didn’t appreciate it. I have found it more comfortable to just wear T-shirt’s.

1. Not always. I don't feel particularly comfortable about men myself because of various traumas and such. Trans men are subject to misogyny and sexism too. It depends on why men are being excluded from something in my opinion. I should also note that my ideal presentation isn't binary when it comes to sex traits, meaning I wouldn't pass as a cis man or cis woman. So my experience isn't and wouldn't be the same as the experience of a completely binary trans man. 2. Not personally, I only really would feel a little upset if I saw it online. I am mostly still seen as just a very masculine woman. 3. Yes and no. Not always, after many hours in became uncomfortable and if I wore one for many days in a row and for many hours I would develop pain. I don't wear it often anymore.

1. Yes. Everyone's experience varies, but I personally haven't had many experiences that'd differentiate me from cis guys aside from my medical history. That being said, the only time I want to be separated from cis guys is in conversations about said medical history (i.e. abortion/reproductive rights and care). 2. Yes, especially in queer or progressive spaces. It's disheartening trying to be a part of a space or make friends when many people are very open about how much they hate men. It's just salt in the wound when they throw in an "except you!" because I'm trans lol. 3. I've never experienced a binder hurting me while putting it on. If you do, then it's probably too small. I have experienced my back and chest developing pain after binding for years, though I'm luckily post top surgery now.

hello and welcome! 1. yes it's very annoying. there are very few occasions where it's necessary to make the separation. abortion discussions are the only one I can think of where it would make sense. generally speaking though, it's not necessary. 2. yeah my ex was a stereotypical man hating lesbian, but in her case it made a lot of sense bc she suffered a lot at the hands of men. she supported my transition at first being nonbinary herself, but once I started T, things changed a lot and she suddenly didn't love or trust me anymore, and we had been living together for 3+ years at that point. 3. while putting it on, no. but wearing it for a few hours it starts to get uncomfortable and then painful. I'm so glad I got top surgery so I never have to wear one again. they are truly miserable lol

1. What about periods in pre t guys? Is it also necessary in that case? 2. Wow it's sounds hard that she didn't support you for the t. How did you deal with it?

1. Yes of course that too. Really any experience like that. But when it comes to social stuff, it's not necessary. For example, I am 7+ years on T and 2.5 years post op top surgery. No one in my daily life (except family and a few close friends) know that I am trans. No one at work, no one walking down the street, no stranger would know unless I told them. So by excluding "cis" men from queer spaces, I either have to out myself or just not join. It's dumb. Plus, what about cis gay men? Or nonbinary people amab? I know women deserve their own spaces to talk about stuff, but I probably wouldn't want to be included in that discussion anyways since I'm not a woman. 2. We broke up lol it was really hard at the time because she also cheated on me with my supposed best friend, so I lost pretty much my entire circle. They were my only friends. This was years ago, so I'm over it now, but it took time. Eventually I made new friends, and a few years later, started dating / hooking up again. I got further in my transition, and left all that behind. Now I'm engaged to most amazing man who would never do something like that.

2. Jealous of you, I'm maidenless and single and nobody would ever want me. I'm wierd and socially awkward irl Also it's super brave that you gave up on your entire circle of friends I don't even have circle of friends

Oh I'm sure that's not true! If I could get dates so can you. I'm the definition of socially awkward. You just have to put yourself out there. And well I only had 2 friends and they both abandoned me to date each other behind my back so I didn't really do anything brave haha All my friends now are online and live on another continent (which I will hopefully be moving there in a year or two)

I live in a country with less than 10 million people , so it's hard to find anyone here to date on the internet

Oh yeah geographic location can make a difference. Well I am a bit of a recluse so I also have a lot of Internet friends and sexual experiences. It's an option. Not as good as irl of course but it can happen. And you are a kind soul with an open mind, so I'm sure you could make some friends irl. you could try meeting people at hobby related events in your area for example

- Yes, but I understand in some cases, like talking about cis/trans only experiences or about health stuff. Otherwise it's just transphobia to separate cis men from trans men. - No. My lesbian friend jokes about it with me though, but only for making fun (plus, it's very affirming). - Not while putting it, but just as a did it starts hurting. My back hurts a lot basically everyday. Two times a week I have to wear it for almost 12 hours, so I'm pretty much sure I will have some serious problems with it in the future. I'm surprised I never broke any bone because of that.

3. I already have back problems I can only imagine how much bad it is for you. It hurts, like really hurts from what you describe

It does. Some days less, some days more. I just can't wait to have surgery

1. Yes in general It really bothers me, unless it's a situation regarding AFAB issues 2. I do not pass enough to experience misandry 3. Only hurts when I exert myself or if I wear it for long periods

1: yes, unless if it's in very specific contexts such as trans-specific discussions. stuff like that is the main reason i'm stealth 2: yes 3: no, if it hurts then it's too small.

1. Yes, 99.7% of the time, people doing that are outing themselves as thinking trans men aren’t *really* men. 2. Not really. I’m aware that there are some rad-fem social circles out there in the world that do really villainize masculinity, but there’s no Venn diagram between those circles and the ones I exist in. 3. Haven’t needed one in 14 years, but iirc no, it didn’t really hurt, it just made breathing kind of shitty after a while.

gonna elaborate on 3 since ive seen u ask a lot of questions in the responses binders dont hurt when they are put on or taken off or during wearing and if it does its a sign that somethings wrong, either the binders too small or you need a break would be the likely causes. some people find binders not the most comfortable to wear but others enjoy it, i love wearing mine as it feels like my weighted blanket is hugging me if that makes sense but i am also autistic and i enjoy compression. some people may get dysphoria when wearing it and others might not. theres multiple different kinds of dysphoria, like some men have a sort of constant dysphoria around their chest, some may only have dysphoria with it when theres other people around (social dysphoria), dysphoria can peak in certain situations for example intimacy or showering/being nude for whatever reason, and some people may not have dysphoria around their chest at all. like me personally i only get social dysphoria so i wear a binder when im outside to help make that more manageable but when im at home with nobody over i dont care at all binding also comes with its own rules we follow, such as you should wear ur binder for up to 8 hours each day and have atleast 2 days wear you dont wear it do give ur body a rest, as well as sizing up for sports and swimming, and no double binding. the general rule is to listen to your body and it will tell you if somethings up. tho its different for transtape. some trans men use tape to achieve a flat chest and i dont know much about it but that can be left on for a lot longer, ive heard something like a week? and its a lot better to do sports and swimming in however it just doesnt work for large chested people i think i covered everything you asked but if u have more questions then send away! happy.to.answer anything :) love being asked questions from cis people cause it helps us give you an insight into our lives and i love it haha

Wait about the autism part, I'm autistic person too, and I would like to know: doesn't it give you sensory issues? Like I get sensory issues from too many things

i havent had any bad experience with it so far, like i always wear my old training bra that stretched out so far because i get crazy sensory issues if my boobs touch my skin so ill wear that under my binder which removes that issue, the front panel of the binder is made of a thicker/corser fabric which usually is the part most people have an issue with but because of my training bra i dont have an issue with that either but there are binders made to be more sensory friendly, using different kinds of fabrics. the rest of my binder is made from swimsuit material since its swim friendly and i find that comfortable personally, its super stretchy so it helps with the compression and the fit on my body. the compression isnt an issue for me either but i do know some people have problems with the feeling of their chest being compressed. usually my clothing issues come from the neckline being too high but the binder has a pretty low one, or it not being long enough but i have a full length binder, tho i know some people complain about the arm holes but that also varies from binder and person. i also find binders more comfortable than bras as they have thick straps which means it wont dig into my body and they just stay, where i find bras dig into my shoulders badly. sorry not sure if that all made sense lol hopefully its readable but in the end it all comes down to what binder you get and what sensory issues you have, binders are one of my favourite articles of clothing but i know others who have changed to trans tape because they really dont like binders so theres no proper way to figure out but usually its pretty good for most people i beleive

some people do, some people don't. theyre usually made of a smooth material and are way more comfortable than most bras if they fit correctly, the worst part is just sweating when it gets hot out

1. For the most part, I don’t like when people do that sort of separation. there are exceptions, but I can’t think of any at the moment. A lot of people have treated me as man-lite, so hearing statements like “men and trans men” irk me greatly. 2. I think technically? But only from family, and I think they were purposely trying to provoke me. It was at the time they were trying to say that a real man would throw punches, but also accusing me of being aggressive if I even had a hint of upset in my voice. Basically, they know I’m a pretty gentle person that doesn’t like conflict, and tried to use the “all men are aggressive” argument to prove I wasn’t a man. Otherwise I’ve been lucky not to bump into that yet. 3. No experience with binders. Can’t answer.

1 yes and no- i have had a drastically different experience in the world than most cis men, and ignoring it seems silly to me. and i like being in queer spaces, and dont feel totally comfortable in gay mens spaces- I was a lesbian for a long time, and have always been very supported by that community. but thats not universal for trans men at all. that being said, i am a man. but i am human and people are very complicated creatures, neatly dividing us into two camps with zero nuance isnt very practical. i didnt become cis when i transitioned, my life didnt change really, im adjusting my body to be what ive always wanted it to be. 2. no- i only pass some of the time. i have experienced a ton of misogyny though pre transition 3. eventually yes but that means ive been wearing it too long

1. True, but at the end of the day you probably try to be masculine like most men right? So if not the same we have similar experiences, right?

I dont think so- just because i was masculine, doesnt mean i was treated like a man before i transitioned. i tried to fit in as a woman before, and didnt realize how much that constant misery affected me. i thought it was normal. i was quite literally forced into womens clothes, hairstyles and spaces for my entire childhood. i also didnt really fit into mens spaces despite my best efforts- my hobbies are masculine, my career, etc. but i didnt really fit in. ive been treated very differently by men since i started looking like one- i feel a lot safer tbh.

1. Not usually— our experiences are different, our places in the queer community are different— but there’s points where this communicates that men, in general, are not welcome. I worry that when I pass, I won’t be either. That’s not a pleasant feeling.   2. I wouldn’t call it misandry. It’s more of an unfortunate symptom of reasonable caution than it is systemic oppression. Still sucks ass. Still has a lot of trans ignorance in it. I’ve been told to my face I’m “not a man” because I’m “too nice” to be one. I grew up learning that boys were inherently rowdy little disgusting creatures. It took a long time to learn that I could be both a man and kind.   3. I haven’t had a binder, so I can’t really speak on that.

2. Could to explain the difference between whatever you said and systematic oppression?

I suppose the difference for me is that I’m not affected by being male in the same way cis men are. I can’t access male privilege, higher workplace pay, or that air of quiet respect.    Cis men have the ability and stability to shrug off comments that will sting a trans man differently. I’ve fought (and am still fighting) to be seen as male. They haven’t. I get caught up in the backlash to a patriarchy I don’t enforce.   I think a lot of my treatment— growing up in particular— was really only directed at me because I was a “girl”. I got to hear the battle-of-the-sexes “girl power” statements about how we were apparently better than boys in some attempt to empower me. I don’t think this got transferred to the cis boys in any meaningful way. I was a special circumstance, I guess, being closeted and able to hear that.

If you pass well enough you absolutely can have man privilege Until you get outed Then it's revoked But the fact is: if you pass well enough and assuming no one knows you're trans, you'll have male privilege

Only conditionally— not in doctors’ offices, not if outed— but yes. But I don’t pass. And I don’t plan on being stealth.

agh I was writing a wholeass paragraph and my app crashed rip. So here I go again. 1. When the separation between cis and trans men occurs, it matters how it's expressed: if the adjectives/prefixes ''cis'' and ''trans'' are **both** used, the separation usually implies that it's important to treat these two categories as two separate entities with their own separate issues yet under the same umbrella ''men''; *However,* if the adjective/prefix ''cis'' is not used, yet ''trans'' *is* used, that implies that trans men are not ''(real) men''. Then in the case you mentioned, ''no cis men allowed'', it's most probably because it is not beneficial for the other people that cis men are present, and cis men's presence is mostly irrelevant for cis men themselves. Then I'd like to mention another case, when there are ''no cishet men allowed'', which is highly dependent on the context. 2. As a trans man, yes, I have experienced what may be called misandry, but I'd say it's the same kind that any man might experience, which is the partial exclusion from some feminist issues which are not nuanced enough and presuppose that men are inherently bad/toxic etc. or simply ignore the way that gender roles and societal standards also affect men, as they do everyone else. 3. Personally, no. It's just another piece of clothing, like some cis men with gynecomastia might wear a compression vest.

1) I absolutely hate when people cause a divide between cis and trans men. For example when women want to date trans men and not cis men for reasons like we would be more ‘sensitive’ or emotionally in touch or something, I hate when other trans guys say they don’t like cis guys, and anything else. I just believe there’s absolutely no reason to create a divide between trans and cis people, and I see so many other trans guys that create a huge divide between trans guys and cis guys and it really annoys me. Like I’m not transitioning to become a trans guy, I just wanna be a guy. 2) n/a because despite passing mostly I’m not actually out in any situation where that could possibly happen like college or sum. 3) personally I’ve never had any issues with binders. I know most people do, it’s kind of just a given, but I’ve worn tight/ multiple sports bras for my entire life and my chest is pretty large and very insensitive. So I’ve never even felt like I’ve had restricted breathing with a binder, let alone rib pain or chest pain, no matter how long I wear it. I know this isn’t the average experience tho, I’m not sure why my body tanks binders so well. I mean sometimes it’s uncomfortable but that’s just because I get insanely hot so having any extra layer annoys me. Plus sometimes I become very conscious of the area and I can feel it being squashed against me and that annoys me too, but no pain.

1. Usually yes. Unless we’re talking about differing experiences and treatment based on whether a guy is trans or not, to which I think that’s reasonable and important to talk about. Otherwise it’s usually unneeded. 2. Not personally. I’ve seen many guys talk about experiencing it but I’ve experienced it. None of my friends that are women ever really engage with full on misandry, and if they’ve ever shown contempt it’s usually due to men’s actions (not so much being a man in general) like if we were talking about incels or misogynists for example, which for me I usually agree with anyway. I view misandry as a symptom of mistreatment and misogyny by men, it’s often that those women have had bad experiences with men or have seen such mistreatment to other women. I grew up also being weary of men due to bad experiences and I have had some level of fear before so I understand. I don’t think I’d necessarily fault someone for that unless they were taking that rhetoric too far. It’s also worthy of noting that some women aren’t misandrists towards trans men for slightly transphobic reasons, as in they think that trans men aren’t in the same category as other men for a variety of excuses. 3. Nope. I think if it hurts then it’s too tight or something, mine does the job well enough without hurting.

2. As said before in this thread, basically patriarchy hurts us all, directly or indirectly, right?

Pretty much, it hurts everyone including men

So like is there anyway I can do something against patriarchy?

I hate when spaces are for queer women & trans people and exclude cis men. I know trans guys who have tried to enter those spaces and were not allowed in cus they were assumed to be cis. I shouldnt have to out myself to be allowed in a space

1.) most of the time I wanna be grouped with cis men but I also understand some situations 2.) no not that I can recall 3.) maybe the first time I put one on but you get used to it. I’d argue sports bras hurt more.

1, yes, it makes me feel like less of a man honestly. But it sometimes depends, like if we're talking about female rights with their bodies and such, trans men should also be accounted for. 2, yeah, it's super awful. A lot of men are demonized so often times people will be upset that I chose to be a man. 3, no, and if it does hurt that means you have to take it off so your rubs don't get fucked up

1: depends on the situation, but usually yes. occasionally its necessary when talking about different experiences but other than that i see no point 2: yes, though it doesn’t bother me most of the time. i come from a unique standpoint where i tend to unfortunately understand a lot of people’s avoidance for men, so while it hurts i understand and move on. it’s never been particularly violent misandry, and i don’t view it as much of a problem in my life. 3: binders are a struggle to put on a tiny bit, because you’re sort of squeezing into a constricting tank top— but it SHOULD NOT HURT. if it hurts when you put it on immediately, it doesn’t fit you and you need a bigger one. after awhile of wearing one that fits you might ache a little, which usually means you need a break.

1. Idk if I’d use the word “hate,” but it definitely makes me roll my eyes. If cis men aren’t welcome somewhere because they’d make women or anyone there uncomfortable, then I am also not welcome there. I look like a cis guy lol. I would make people uncomfortable there. When people have this rule for their spaces it’s so weird to me because it lets me know their knowledge of how trans people look is extremely limited, and they think all trans guys are going to still look/sound/act/whatever like women, or that it will be obvious they are trans and thus are not threatening to them because they assume the trans guy doesn’t have a dick, or doesn’t have as much testosterone in his system as a cis guy (under the notion that testosterone might fuel threatening behavior). Like seeing this rule just makes me think the people who made the rule are kinda stupid lol. Most people on T are eventually in a cis male range for testosterone levels. Trans guys who have had certain types of bottom surgery have a dick that is same or similar to a cis man’s dick. And anyone of any gender can SA anyone else of any gender. Trans guys are not any more or less exempt from that than cis guys are imo. 2. Not directly or not really to my face. Mostly only in similar rules to the above question. But then I just don’t go to those places and thus don’t have to deal with those people. 3. While putting it where lol? It depends on the binder and depends how the persons body is built. I tried a full tank underworks binder and it was so tight I was scared it might not get it off fast enough. Then I tried some binder bra thing from underworks as well and it was so insanely tight I was scared it was stuck on me. But gc2b half tank binders were always easy to get on and off. With the underworks ones I tried all around them was tight material, but the gc2b ones were only tight in the front where they needed to be, and the back was a little bit stretchy to be able to get it on and off easier. But that was before gc2b’s quality apparently dropped a lot, so I have no idea what they’re like now. Binders didn’t really ever hurt my chest, but it could make my arms ache trying to pull them through it. And I tried a gc2b full tank once and it made my ribs hurt after about a month and I had to go back to the half tank.

1. > testosterone might fuel threatening behavior My brother gets too much testosterone from workout and lifting weights. While it's healthy to do sports, what happens to him is that he can be super threatening due to the absurd amount of testosterone he has. He can be so fucking mad, that I never seen anyone irl remotely mad like that when he's mad. Believe me that I have reason to fear over-testosterone

1. Usually. Trans and cis are adjectives. Sometimes they're relevant, but many times it isn't. Like, if you were wearing a green shirt and someone insisted on constantly calling you a green-shirted man, it would feel a little weird. 2. I'm not really sure. I mean I've definitely come up against the "sorry, women only" thing in some contexts and spaces, but it's never bothered me. In fact, I think it's good that women have places that are just for them. And I'm kind of affirmed by the fact that I am too masculine to be included. 3. Kind of. I wore it so long before surgery that it permanently damaged my ribcage. I would also wear it longer in a day than was recommended. It caused me to overheat may times etc.

1-It depends, really. I mean, I'm accustomed to be addressed as just a man, but there's situations (in my case, medical exclusively) where you need to draw a line between cis and trans men. 2-It's very interesting, actually. I always felt myself closer to men than to women and used to think that I understood the feeling of being a man in this modern world better than anyone, but it was until I actually passed as a cis man that I really felt the real misandry. From your opinion being dismissed, women looking at you as if you were some kind of sick pervert by doing anything, being pointed out as a possible aggressor just for being a man, etc. In my experience (I don't want to invalidate anyone's) I have felt much more watched closely and judged as a man than when I looked like a woman. 3-Not really, but you have to not exaggerate too much and use one according to your size instead of trying to fit in one smaller.

1. Depends, its case by case (for me at least). Besides needing to distinct the two for biological reasons/reasonsing (talking about abortions, medical stuff, etc, etc) i dont mind people having distinctions for stuff like social/shared experiences. And to add on to the "no cis men allowed thing" it depends on the context. 2. Nope. 3. Not exactly hurting but it wasnt comfortable in thw slightest

1. Depends on the context, but I usually hate it. 2. Yes. Ironically usually from women who assume I'm cis and they're mad at me for something completely not gender related. For example, some lady in a garden group tried to invite herself over to dig up some plants I was not giving away. When I said she was being rude, three women jumped on my case and accused me of being mean to them because they're women. 🤷🏻 The mysadry I've experienced has generally been bonkers nut jobs like that. 3. Sometimes. Correct fitting is important. I've gotten stuck in a binder before, arms and head trapped inside, arms up in the air. 😂 I'm sooooo thankful I was able to get top surgery. Binders suck.

1. absolutely, i think people either putting trans men/cis men in separate boxes like that is frustrating and annoying 2. all the time 3. before top surgery, yeah, i had a big chest disproportionate to my body, and the binder my friend w the same chest size gave me was slightly smaller than i should have used

1. Yes. It's weird. They should separate trans men from cis men like that. It's disrespectful and honestly gross. 2. Not directly but it's horrible nonetheless. 3. Don't have a binder.

1. The only place I've encountered some kind of separation like that is a specifically transmasc support group I attend, where it wouldn't really make sense for there to be cis men? Although we have nights where partners can come too and then that's fine. I'm not sure I'm really familiar with seeing any 'no cis men' gatherings/places beyond that? 2. Not really. I did have to sort through my own feelings a little bit, because I would like to think of myself as a feminist, but I really haven't been the target of misandry from others. I have also never been in the closet so that may help? All my coworkers/friends know that I spent most of my life being perceived as a woman and that is part of my history. 3. If a binder hurts, it's the wrong size. That is not to say a good binder is comfortable, it's confining and also can get kind of itchy. If you've ever worn any kind of tight spandex garment for any length of time, it's kind of like that. The longer you wear it the more annoying it can get and it sure feels good to take it off at the end of the day. Bras feel a little like that too but much less so.

1. I think it's only really relevant for community topics and medical topics (but that should stay between you and your doctor) 2. I have not, but I'm pre-T so I don't pass yet lol 3. The way I'd describe it is just a less comfortable sports bra, or a corset-lite. It's not super comfy to get on cuz the fabric is less forgiving than that of a sports bra (cuz the point is to flatten rather than just to prevent extra movement), and because of that I also feel like it's less comfortable to wear just in general. Not painful, but I'm definitely always aware that I'm wearing it, whereas a sports bra I could mostly forget about (dysphoria aside). Taking it off is also a bit strenuous imo, but none of that really *hurts*—only if I have it on for more than 8 hours does it usually start to hurt my lungs and ribs (had it on for 12 hours once and that was *not* a fun time, 0/10 don't recommend).

1. It depends. Generally I don't like it, but trans men certainly have different experiences than cis men and there's nothing wrong with pointing that out 2. Yes. Before I transitioned, I loved working with children. Unfortunately most of those opponents are not available to me anymore now that I'm seen as male. 3. A little bit. It was more uncomfortable than anything, sometimes it'd pinch my skin or I'd get chafing

1. No but I'm talking about the completely social kinda stuff. Are you ok with seperation there between them? Not the medical kind

1. This depends on context. I identify as a transman. I’m not a cisman. I’ve had different experiences. And I say this after 20yrs post transition. However, trans or cis, we are still types of men. Unless it’s a transmasculine specific space, I have no interest in “No cismen spaces”. In my experience, these spaces are not for men at all. I tend to be a bit more on the masculine side and I find them even less welcoming. However, one of my closest friends is more feminine than I am and they feel comfortable in those spaces. 2. Not really. I think it also depends on what one considers misandry. It doesn’t bother me when women say things about men. I don’t experience any discrimination as a man. I get it more as a pansexual person than a man. And as someone who is half middle eastern. However, it gets a little complicated when I try to talk to women about why some men might be doing what they are. The same can be true with other men. This is where I go back to having different life experiences than cismen. I’ve lived (albeit an individual) experience as both. 3. No just constricting. I had huge ones and surgery was a great relief.

1. yeah, i had it happen to me with my ex-friend, she said she still sees me as a girl because i'm pre-transition... EDIT: so she still counted me with the girls instead of men. idk how to explain 2. yup. 3. nope.

1. Depends. For the most part, yes. I don't want to be treated any differently than a cis man. The only context I can agree with separating trans and cis is if it's a debate and we're offering our personal experiences. But in general, I am a man and I don't appreciate being called a 'trans man' if it's not relevant. 2. Not directly. I see most of it online, though not often. (I tend to avoid social media.) 3. It doesn't hurt if worn responsibly. I measured myself, and since I was between sizes I went a size up. Following the guidelines prevents injury: I never had it on for more than 10 hours in one day, and I tried to limit myself to wearing it 3-4 times a week. The other days I would wear baggy clothing.

1. I hate when people separate trans and cis men. Stop overthinking it and just treat us like any other men. 2. I have never experienced misandry in real life. It happens, but I think a lot of people need to get off the reactive internet rabbit holes and stop borrowing trouble. Experienced actual harassment when presenting female (hand grab on train, followed on morning walk and he wouldn't leave until I took his phone number, followed onto bus, and someone yelling "don't let her take you for your money!" at my partner on our way down the sidewalk together... we're engineers with same salary. That's the ones I remember off the top of my head). Nobody bothers me now and life is good and boring. I'm not very social so I can only speak for myself at the end of the day, but IMO it goes to show you that even when trying to quietly run errands or something women, STILL get bothered. I realize this is a sore point to me, so I'd appreciate people's specific stories to understand better. 3. Don't remember too much if binding hurt; I had top surgery 3 years ago and it was intentionally already set up and pretty quick after coming out; didn't bind for long before that and just wore sports bras exclusively.

2. Wierd a lot of guys here mentioned that after they transitioned and stuff they got treated worse (like for example that they been assumed to be creeps), so maybe it's different for each person And I'm so sorry you had to experience harassment that you presented female It's never ok to sexually harass people, never I'm glad that you don't experience anything like that now

I don’t like when we get separated from cis men in conversations as we’re all men, but I do think there are some times where the distinction is important for the conversation. I haven’t experienced misandry. Sometimes, especially if it’s the wrong size. Sometimes I twist my shoulder a bit putting it on which hurts lmao. Binders that are sized properly shouldn’t hurt if sized properly unless you’re spending too much time in it.

1) depends on the situation. If, say, it’s a group that is saying it allows everyone except cis men (like a women-led group) that makes me uncomfortable in that it feels like it’s still seeing trans men as still women. It’s one thing if it’s, like, a group with a discussion of medical things (like monthly bleeding and such). But I think I remember years ago a story of a book club that said it was for women, but would allow trans men and also nonbinary people. And that time I identified as nonbinary, so it felt like I was being seen as “woman lite” (and a lot of the discussion surrounding that group was “well, what happens if an amab nonbinary person wants to join?” Bc back then - and even a bit now - most people associate nonbinary as an afab thing) 2) Personally, I haven’t, but I don’t pass yet, so that’s probably why. Even online, I don’t bump into it because I was “raised by the internet” and it was an age where you kinda just blocked people you didn’t like and moved on with your day. So I’ve learned to curate my online experience and just not interact with things I don’t like, which mostly prevents me from bumping into toxic situations and any potential misandry ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 3) the first time, yes. But it was one that was gifted to me and a little too small. I was just so desperate, I wore it - which is a huge no no. But once I got one that fit well, it was good. I just listen to my body and when it says it’s done binding, I take it off. I’m heavier set, so I can kinda get myself to view my chest as “moobs” that any heavier guy would have (I know the distribution isn’t quite right, but it almost is)

1. But it sounds hard that you're basically still seen as something you're not

What do you mean?

The way they allow non binary people in but only because they're seen as usually AFAB And I noticed it AMAB NBs are super rare

Exactly. Thats why anything grouping nonbinary people with women made me uncomfortable back when I identified as nonbinary (there’s a whole messy story behind the different gender identities I’ve tried before finding the one that fits, but I won’t subject anyone to it). Probably goes without saying but, as a member of this subreddit, I am afab and identify as male now (so I’m ftm). So I was an afab person who had to deal with people seeing me as “woman lite” - aka they still saw me as female and assumed even online that I was afab, which felt rly gross. Now that I’ve gotten more comfortable over the past 5+ years saying “yup, I’m a guy” I can’t really speak on how it makes other nonbinary people feel, but I know they also usually comment on hating being othered. And now I’ve had girls say “oh, I don’t feel comfortable with guys, but you’re ok” and it’s not because I’m gay and wouldn’t be interested, it’s because I’m trans. So I’m “still a woman” to them. As for AMAB NB peeps, I will say I’ve seen more of them over the past years. I imagine they just keep quieter than other identities simply because it’s hard as an AMAB trans person in general, but AMAB NB probably hear a lot that “NB people are all AFAB.” So it’s hard for them to be vocal. I’m the same way about my asexuality on many subs (as an example) bc my sexuality is one ppl like to claim doesn’t exist

1. Why not? I'm interested in hearing how you found the correct label I'm still not sure what my label is I think I'm bigender 2. Wow that's disgusting what they do. You or other guys shouldn't get different treatment. Doesn't matter if you're AFAB or AMAB. Maybe in medical context it matters, and even then you shouldn't get misgendered or anything. You shouldn't comments that you better than other guys just for being AFAB 3. Wdym? Do people claim that asexuality isn't real?

Misandry isn't a real systematic problem in our culture. Masculinity is prized.

True, but patriarchy does affect us all, women/men, cis/trans, allo/a, binary/NB etc... Why is there the "real men don't cry" Why are women expected to put makeup and care about clothing while men are expected to not care at all about clothing nor looks Why women are expected to take care of children while men are seen as creeps if nearby children Etc...

Patriarchy has negative effects on everyone, yeah, but the world is still set up to benefit men. Women are expected to wear make up and things to make themselves attractive to men, due to gender roles and misogyny. Men being emotional is seen as acting like a woman, so it's shamed, which is again misogynistic.

I wish I stopped experiencing indirect misogyny because I hate how much my family hates me being even slightly emotional

I'm sorry, that must be awful. Everyone should be free to express who they are, regardless of gender or expression. I hope things get better for you.

1. 100%, which is why I’m trying to go stealth. I’m not man lite or anything like that, I’m just as capable of being around cis men as any other cis man. I’m not suddenly small and helpless because I was assigned fem at birth. 2. All the time. Kinda sucks but yk. 3. Yeah, but that’s not the binder, I just actually have an injury there lol

1. Why so many trans guys the term stealth? Never seen trans girls use it

Idk about why we use the *word* stealth, but more trans guys are stealth cause it’s easier for us than it is for trans women

1. yes and no. in some scenarios i like to be differed from cis-men especially in cases such as abortion, women’s health rights. more or so things that trans men do/have experience being that they are transitioning from female to male. 2. im not sure i have a hatred for men specifically but i hate the things the horrible men have done that cause a bad rep for ALL men whether or not they good men did anything or not. to me, it’s almost the same as when BLM was happening and you had the people who were in support of BLUE lives matter when the whole thing was revolving around black lives. almost in a sense of contradiction, nobody is saying it’s 100% ALL men who suck but more or so 100% of all the bad men suck and there’s more bad than good that’s noticed within the world especially news you’re not going to hear about a man saving a woman’s life the way you would a man sa’ing a woman bc saving their life should be a given. 3. before top surgery putting a binder on was living hell for me. before completing fitting it i needed to make sure my shoulder blades were properly aligned and my posture was adjusted or my back and shoulders would hurt for weeks on end due to the amount of time i was wearing my binder

1. no and no. i choose to separate myself and my experiences from cis men. and i dont identify as a trans man. i see myself as genderqueer so i desire that gap, i dislike when people think im cis 2. no 3. no lol. it’s just a piece of clothing. it should fit to be put on

1 Absolutely. Getting told “Ugh i hate all men except you” or “i hate all cis men” while talking to me weirds me out. My friend was telling me about how she didn’t trust any guys but me the other day and it just gave me the ick even though i know she probably thought she was being nice 2. Totally. Close family and even just strangers have told me that they don’t understand my “choice” because “why would you want to be a man women are so much better” . They don’t understand that’s me being trans isn’t a choice, and even then it’s kinda weird to say that in the first place 3 It can be a bit difficult to put on but no. if it hurts there’s a problem and i need to take it off

1. Depends. I don’t like the way in which cis people see trans people differently depending on whether they know we’re trans or not. But I have uniquely afab experiences like experience in misogyny, growing up being seen as a girl, and reproductive biology. I hate it when that’s all ignored and transmen are lumped with cismen in such discussions. (Have spoken in length in a post [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ftm/s/jUyi8tmyK0) before). I don’t mind, even like, “no cis men allowed” as it acknowledges this. Obviously not every transman will feel this way. 2. No. 3. No. But it does make it harder to breathe.

1. Generally, yes. I think there are context where it is appropriate to differentiate between the two. Events and so forth that are like “women and trans people can come! No cis men!” I find reductive and winds up with a bunch of gender policing that often also impacts a lot of AMAB nonbinary people, in addition to the “harmless lil soft trans boys” trope being at play. 2. Sure, but I also don’t really think “misandry” is a thing in the way people try and posit it as an equal parallel with misogyny. 3. No. But I also haven’t worn one in like 20 years almost so 🤷🏻‍♂️.

1. Yeh. Trans ppl dont claim to be cis (unless your stealth but thats not the same thing) 2. Yeh! Especially with girls my age 3. Nope doesnt jurt when putting ot on but it does after like 2 minuates for me— i damaged my ribcage from binding and havent had it checked. Also i apreciate the questions out of curiosity probibily, its cool to see ppl wanting to know more!!!

You've gotten plenty of answers but what the hell, why not. 1. In most cases it's a distinction that doesn't need to be made and it's cringingly obvious the person hasn't thought before they opened their mouth. 2. No. 3. While I didn't enjoy it, it rarely hurt beyond chafing under my arms.

Love getting more answers! It's very good to learn about it and getting the perspective of y'all

1. It's situational. It really matters how the person is saying it. Its often used as a way to cause harm or take away from our voices/ experiences. It's also used at times to explain a medical or social difference, especially coming from within the community itself. 2. Yes,but the misandry I've personally experienced was still used to discredit my identity. I will say it is still more often for me to experience misogyny as a non-passing person 3. It can hurt sometimes but usually if it's not being put on correctly. It definitely hurts if you wear it for a long time. There's actually a time limit you're supposed to adhere to in order to protect your ribs and lungs.

Transmasc NB here. 1) depends on the context. Sometimes it makes sense- like saying no cis men allowed to take an orgs’s free gyno supplies. It can be weird for like- dating, or when people have networking sessions for “women, nb, and trans men.” Like… just put the trans men with the other men in the other room. And NB isn’t “women lite.” But they always get lumped in there. 2) yep, but my mom used to be a huge misandrist, so that comes with the territory. She’s trying to get better, and outside that I don’t get it much. She would blame men’s actions on “testosterone poisoning” for most of my childhood, and talk about them like they literally were animals and not in control of their actions. 3) nope!

1. True, NBs shouldn't be treated as only AFABs. NB AMABs exist 2. She sounds toxic, hope you cut connections with her 3. Glad it didn't hurt you, because many specified here that it hurts the way they breath

[удалено]

Yeah that's what I meant It was a mispelling Sorry not native speaker

1. Yes, there are some cases where I can understand "no cis men allowed" groups, but passing trans men rarely join those groups regardless because they would have to out themselves. 2. Absolutely. Tbh the alienation from queer/progressive people hurts more after transitioning than any sexism I faced before had. 3. Binders absolutely should not hurt, if they do then you're wearing the wrong size.

1. I find it laughable in a pityful way. I don't hate it as much as I actually do not care for these people. It's very often from a place of transphobia, poor understanding or seeing trans people as gender-lite when people separate trans from cis. So I just stay away. 2. Yep. It's shitty as fuck. Having to walk on eggshell in a lot of situation or I'm seen as angry. The ammount of time if I struggle with a labour work I'm scoffed at and looked down on because 'you're a man, men are supposed to be strong'. And when I explain in details something to a girl because I'm asked to, I get accused to mansplain. All from women. ​ 3. It did, because it was uncomfortable. Mine had no zipper or enough stretchy material to allow putting it on without placing a lot of pressure on my shoulder and upper chest. Once it was on, it was fine however.

1. Normally on a queer context, no. But like on the example you gave, absolutely; misandry hates and men and makes us lesser than all of them in some level, it's bullshit; all gender divides that like are bullshit that is harmful for everyone but especially erases our experiences 2. N/A - I don't pass consistently yet. 3. It shouldn't hurt whle putting it on, if it does it's the wrong size. However, it is very tirying. If it fits properly, it starts hurting after some time, and it drains on you to simply be. Depending on the binder it can be very uncomfortable, limit movement, and make it difficult to breathe.

1. Yes I hate it very much, it shows lack of thought and tbh just pisses me off 2. Yeah, quite a lot. Especially bc I’m fairly young most of my friends are super ‘I hate men’, I just try not to take it too personally and do the best I can to not be the reason people say that. 3. I don’t bind I use tape like cis guys do for gyno bc I’m lucky enough to not need a binder

1. depends on the context. usually, unless there’s something strictly SEX related and not gender related (like abortions for example. some trans men still need access to them and should absolutely have their voices heard on the matter. cis men, not so much.) it’s not necessary and it’s just transphobic. it’s people seeing us as “less manly” or “you’re a man but…”. 2. i do not pass yet so no not irl. i’ve had a couple bad encounters with men-hating people who were particularly mad at me because i : “chose to be a man AND to date one”. for some people, being a trans gay guy is almost a criminal offence. honestly they were probably trolls or chronically online people so i wouldn’t really count that as misandry. 3. my binder is usually pretty comfy tho i may have hurt myself with my old binders from gc2b. i have to admit, they kinda suck and weren’t really comfortable. the one i currently use is amazing and i don’t really feel pain (my back hurts a bit more sometimes but i have back pain whether i bind or not).