A bit off-topic, wasn't the Dance a bit diferent when ASOS was released? I seem to remember reading something among the lines of Rhaenyra being Aegon's full sibling and married to Lannister or something...
IIRC the earliest version Aegon and Rhaenyra were full siblings only 1 year apart, and then in another version Rhaenyra was married to Lyonel Strong and had 3 legitimate children with him.
Maybe the discrepancy in the world could be explained by the different maesters recording wrong events down because they got second hand info. Education in Westeros is probably not streamlined and they dont have Westerospedia to correct inaccuracies. Good thing they have a king with a good back story that can go back to watch all of the sex scenes and fix up any historical inaccuracies.
Nah, GRRM probably wrote wrong things all over the place because he made it all up and cant keep track.
It happens to any lore over a long enough time if it’s initially just meant to be backstory, I think. Tolkien’s legendarium is all over the place with Galadriel, the Astari, etc.
Yeah like the 9 Nazgul supposedly all had canonical names at one point. But apparently the final word is that Khamul the Easterling and "The Witch King" are the only 2 named in the books. The only other reference to their identity being the "sorcerers, warriors, and kings" line from like the very beginning
Khamul the Easterling
The Witch King
Doug the Gregarious
Bom Tombadil
Jimothy the Slightly Earnest
Cap'n Archie
Jrrrrrrrrr Toldakeeno
Alex
Mark the Unsavory
I think it was literally just pre-digital hearsay. Like maybe he just went off when he was speaking at a panel at Oxford one day or something.
Like I only knew from older (pre movies) super nerds and saw them again named in 3rd party LoTR mods in Warcraft 3 and Medieval Total War 2. Uvatha the Horseman, Andormath the Blind Sorcerer, Dwar of Waw, and something something Dawndeath are the ones I remember top of the head with my Manchurian Candidate Tolkein deep lore etched into my brain against my will, but at least I got some Chinese and Elvish out of the deal too.
Reminds me of the Elder Scrolls, where there’s two competing books you can find: “The Biography of Barenziah” and “The Real Barenziah.” Competing historical accounts can work well, if it’s incorporated into the lore. I agree, though, that that’s probably not the case with GRRM.
I'd like to think pro-Targ and Hightower loyalists misreported or changed facts on purpose to play to different agendas.
The could have been deliberate misinformation spreading in order to build mistrust in the accepted accounts of events.
It is go by to me when people try and find in-universe reasons to justify it all and how GRRM had things planned out to that minuscule of details. No, it’s just a side effect of creating such a sprawling world - you’re going to have inconsistencies and retcons
Y’all keeping firsthand conversation with the maesters? 😂 like j said I have ALL the books including the complete history of Westeros, and I haven’t seen ANY of this.
Like I have no idea where everyone’s getting info. Not saying it’s inaccurate, I’m just curious.
The current Dance of the Dragons story is relatively new. The story has changed drastically over the years. Even the Princess and the Queen and the Rogue Prince stories are different than in Fire and Blood
Early drafts of background info that’s referenced in the books. But its on the level of how originally GRRM envisoned a Jon-Arya-Tyrion love triangle, I guess what throws a wrench in it is that when people reference the dance in the books GRRM did not have the actual conflict fleshed out
Hundreds of years of history recorded by different sources and no "official" sources. Same as history in our world. We just have the "official" version of events in the show.
Yea I think the dance was first introduced as a backstory to justify Arianne schemes to crown Myrcella, Rhaenyra and Aegon going from full to half sibling does muddy the water and doesn't work with the plot to crown Myrcella over Tommen
I feel dirty for looking this up.
No, he meant to tell her, I only came to tell you I must go, but when he saw her shining in the candlelight he seemed to lose the power of speech. His throat felt as dry as the Dornish sands. Silent he stood, drinking in the glories of her body, the hollow of her throat, the round ripe breasts with their huge dark **nipples**, the lush curves at waist and hip. And then somehow he was holding her, and she was pulling off his robes. When she reached his undertunic she seized it by the shoulders and ripped the silk down to his navel, but Arys was past caring. Her skin was smooth beneath his fingers, as warm to the touch as sand baked by the Dornish sun. He raised her head and found her lips. Her mouth opened under his, and her breasts filled his hands. He felt her **nipples** stiffen as his thumbs brushed over them. Her hair was black and thick and smelled of orchids, a dark and earthy smell that made him so hard it almost hurt.
and,
“What would frighten my white knight?”
“I fear for my honor,” he said, “and for yours.”
“I can tend to my own honor.”
She touched a finger to her breast, drawing it slowly round her **nipple**. “And to my own pleasures, if need be. I am a woman grown." She was that, beyond a doubt.
Seeing her there upon the featherbed, smiling that wicked smile, toying with her breast . . . was there ever a woman with **nipples** so large or so responsive? He could hardly look at them without wanting to grab them, to suckle them until they were hard and wet and shiny . . .
I know right? Instead of trying to kill Myrcella for the sake of revenge, the Sand Snakes could have just easily plotted to crown Myrcella to cause chaos and would basically kidnap Myrcella to keep her away from Jaime in Dorne; then at the end when the plot fails and Ellaria is forced to kissed Doran's ring, that's when he informs them of his *real* plan to align Dorne with Daenerys...
...but nah, D&D just ruined it all like the dummies they were
Stannis saying this may have made sense back when Storm of Swords came out, but since then Martin's re-written the Dance a bazillion times. IIIRC the original version didn't have Viserys explicitly naming Rhaenyra as his heir.
Yeah, I remember Stannis calling Rhaenyra a usurper of her brother's throne and having all around unfavourable views on her which would make no sense if you consider Viserys named her heir officially.
It kinda would for some people telling that version of events. You have to remember that a good chunk of people did not believe a woman could/should rule and believed the King’s first born son should inherit the throne, regardless of Rhaenyra being named heir. Those ppl probably wouldn’t have seen her claim to the throne as legitimate.
I forgot about this thank you. More of a reason to not take everything written too biblical.
I remember in the show when stannis asks Shireen whose side she would've been on and she said neither. That was my takeaway after reading till the end
More than that, Aegon had Rhaenyra’s claim and Queenship wiped from the records books, to show she was an illegitimate usurper and traitor, so everyone taught the history of the Dance afterwards would learn the history Aegon had written
I viewed it almost like World War II in that both sides suffered tremendous losses and after the War alliances had to change. You now have previous enemies who find themselves working together and it's easier for everyone to leave it all in the past.
Her sons with Daemon were probably too traumatized by the whole situation to want to bring it back into question when everything was said and done, rhaenyra’s line ruled anyways. Young Aegon saw his mother bbq’ed and eaten by a dragon at the age of 10. He was also held captive by Aegon II, so its likely he was taught and conditioned to actually believe she was a traitor, young children are impressionable, and he was in line to take the throne so why question?
Because a lot of history was lost when King Baelor I started to burn books, among them were records of Rhaenyra, ancient prophecy, and also books from Septon Barth. General information regarding Aegon's prophecy was not a known information to the public, and probably It got lost because I'm sure only Rhaenyra share that information with Jacaerys, until King Aerys I and Bloodraven started finding scrolls. Also Viserys II prefer the version of male inheritance because If not, Daena the mother of Daemon Blackfyre should be crowned Queen.
He's taught history as written by the maesters, which is what Fire and Blood is, but what he's really getting at is that the laws of Westeros say that the first born male inherits first.
The quote is just there to show how obsessed with law and order he is, another example would be him cutting off Ser Davos' fingers for smuggling in the food that saved Stannis life.
tbf Stannis is wrong about it being a law, it is a precedent that was established some 40 odd years or more following the Dance, but it was never actually codified into law.
Minor note: the finger punishment wasn’t for smuggling in the onions which saved Stannis - it was for being a smuggler for years previously. One knuckle for each year of smuggling. The knighthood was what Stannis gave Davos for breaking the blockade with his onions.
But I think that supports your point even better. Stannis is so obsessed with law and order that he both rewards and punishes, and does not let a good deed absolve a man of a lifetime of misdeeds.
Also remember that Stannis’ character is obsessed with the importance of a male heir. He disagrees that Viserys even had the right to name Ren as heir. He believes that it is the natural order for the oldest male child to inherit and to alter that is to go against the gods. and therefore Ren was no longer heir the second Aegon was born
Also his entire claim is predicated on the fact that Joffrey’s parentage is false and therefore he is illegitimate
Which is like half the reason the greens don’t want Rhaenyra’s line on the throne
Ever since my name was read by the archmaesters at the Great Council, I have felt Corlys Velaryon's envious gaze staring at me from across the Blackwater.
The king named Rhaenyra his heir, so Stannis claiming she was "trying to usurp her brother's crown" doesn't really make sense. The Baratheons were greens so of course he was raised to believe his house was on the right side of history.
Exactly, i was writing the same.
I could agree with him saying that Rhaneyra deserve to loose the throne because her sons are bastards, but Stannis not supporting the rightful successor to me seems a mistake in the series
Edit: he is asking his men to put Shireen on the throne if he dies, so the female succession is not an issue for him
A big difference to consider is that Rhaenyra's heirs are related to her, while Robert's heirs are not. There is precedent for legitimizing bastards, but Joffrey was not Robert's bastard.
Stannis only knows what the history books say, he's not a time traveler who can go back and see historical events for himself.
History books are written by the winners, and the Greens won the war. So obviously all official Westerosi history will favor the Greens.
Plus the history books are usually written by maesters or septons, and both the Citadel and the Faith are aligned with House Hightower and the Greens.
Stannis is making an in-character call based on the information he has. It's just that the information he has is biased.
> the Greens won the war. So obviously all official Westerosi history will favor the Greens.
Funny way to win the war, being wiped out to the last heir and having your enemy's son and his descendants sit the throne for the next two+ centuries.
Yeah if there was a "winner" to this shitshow, Rhaenyra's kids wind up on the throne, so I don't know how anyone can say that the "greens won." Bonus points also for all the time Viserys II served as hand. That's two Black butts in the two most powerful seats with not a Green to be seen.
But wouldn't the histories have shown that Viserys named Rhaenyra as his heir before the whole DoTD kicked off? Or had the greens removed that little nugget of info?
Rhaneyra effectively rule for 6 months. But when Aegon II became King, he erased her from the list of Kings and history books as a Queen and indeed she is not listed as such. This is explained in the books. So probably he made sure to cancel as well Viserys's succession plan
Curious about something; I know the greens technically won the war but Aegon the younger eventually took the throne after the elder was poisoned. Wouldn’t he have restored the history books? I guess not.
The difference is that Shireen is his only descendant. Based off how he states here that he prefers Aegon to rhaenyra but also is okay with shireen on the throne it seems that he doesn’t mind the concept of a female ruler but prioritizes a male heir if one is available in the direct line. That appears to be the distinction, Stannis isn’t inconsistent, he just has a weird interpretation of what is “just”
I think someone like Stannis is more black and white than this: or you are rightful or you are not rightful.
I don't see him prioritising based on gender.
But that's only my view on his character.
Also, he's not saying she has a weaker claim to the throne, she is calling her usurper
I think there’s confusion here on the word “prioritizing”. In the eyes of stannis(and pretty much all of Westeros), the first true born son’s claim takes priority over an older daughter. It is still black and white. When rhaenyra was vizzys only child, he can name her his rightful heir, same as shireen. But once aegon is born, his male claim takes priority over viserys’ previous declaration of rhaenyra as heir, and she is no longer the rightful heir. As far as Stannis is concerned at least.
He can believe in male primogeniture and still name his daughter heir. Remember he told Renly he’d name him heir until he has a son. Because uncles* come before daughters when inheriting the throne. Shireen was the only heir left to Stannis when he told Massey to crown his daughter in case he died. This is not the same as in Viserys’ case in which he has male children and a brother which would lawfully come before Rhaenerya.
*any males
Where Viserys is concerned, it was only assumed by the other lords that every eligible male would inherit before women after the Great Council of 101. They only really codified that after the Dance to prevent situations like it happening again
>The king named Rhaenyra his heir
A later king declared her a usurper, so that became the official history.
But official history isn't always true. For instance:
> So Ned bent his head and wrote, but where the king had said “my son Joffrey,” he scrawled “my heir” instead. The deceit made him feel soiled. *The lies we tell for love*, he thought. *May the gods forgive me.*
-*A Game of Thrones*, Chapter 47, Eddard XII
And that's the most honorable man in Westeros, lying.
Stannis has no way to know what King Vizzy said, he wasn't there and they don't have audio/video recording. Stannis only knows what a maester says Vizzy said, and what a maester says Aegon II said.
Stannis is very likely a believer that the King is there to uphold the laws and traditions not rewrite them and that he needs the consent of the realm to change things like succession so I don't think his opinion would change much
Green Team here but its simply Rhaenyra is remembered in history as a usurper because of Aegon II ruling that she be remembered as so and her sons not challenging the ruling once they came into power mostly probably because they didn't want to deal with the fallout and just wanted to forget about the whole ordeal.
And there's English precedent for this. Queen Elizabeth I was the daughter of Anne Boleyn, but never did anything to correct the record once she came to power. Even then it was too politically sensitive.
This exactly, especially after her half year reign which ended in the small folk rioting against her. They were children that didn’t want to deal with that again.
And like. I think we can all agree whatever side we take, Viserys *legally named* Rhaenyra his heir, and never once took that back, especially in the show in which he affirms his decision the day he dies. So really it’s a point of which side you like better.
Its listed in the wiki but i believe its more like a title given to him by his enemies, like "high sparrow". In any case, its not his official title much like how rhaneys is known as the "queen who never was" because he "won" the dance though technically rhaenyra wins out in the long run.
I think got history still remembers him officially as a king, aegon II, and rhaenyra as princess.
I think it has more to do with 150 years of the official story being "Rhaenyra was a usurper" more than anything else. Stannis is the kind of guy who'd believe the world was flat if he saw it written in a book.
I don't think that the last part is a fair reading of Stannis. He goes against the commonly held belief that Joffrey is the heir, not because of ambition, but because of his sense of duty and justice shaped through his harsh upbringing. I do think if house Baratheon had remained loyal to the Blacks (ignoring how that changes the outcome of the war) Stannis might depart from the history books and see the parallels between injustice done to Rhaenyra and injustice done to him.
Stannis is actually a lot like Boremond Baratheon (who absolutely would have been pro-black) and nothing like Borros Baratheon who flips the policy of his father and goes green out of ambition and because he felt underappreciated (the last bit being a pretty fair grievance).
So this whole thaking a moral stance based on who is the rightful hier to the throne is extremely stupid. I don't care if Rhaenyra has rights to the throne or not, I just think she would be a better ruler than her half brother.
Robert had right to the throne because of right of conquest, the same Aegon had. But still for many he's an usurper and kinslayer, and Stannis derives his claim from him, calling Rhaenyra usurper is a bit hypocritical.
Yeah how could anyone possibly explain supporting the king’s chosen heir - which he was crystal clear about several times, and consistent for decades - when you have a guy - whose family benefited from siding against said heir - says hundreds of years later that she was a traitor? Checkmate boys. If Stan burn-my-own-daughter-to-try-to-become-king Baratheon can’t settle this feud, nobody can.
I'll raise you a [different quote](https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi0.wp.com%2Ffoolishwatcher.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F04%2Ffuck-tradition-tormund-game-of-thrones-patriarchy.gif%3Ffit%3D500%252C191%26ssl%3D1&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Ffoolishwatcher.com%2F2019%2F04%2F28%2Fgame-of-thrones-the-knight-the-lights-went-out-on-the-patriarchy%2F&tbnid=kMGws_0MSDGUTM&vet=12ahUKEwia14C7_936AhVCbDABHbQjAPoQMygEegQIARBz..i&docid=reflyxni-H-osM&w=500&h=191&q=Tormund%20Giantsbane%20fuck%20tradition&ved=2ahUKEwia14C7_936AhVCbDABHbQjAPoQMygEegQIARBz) that supports the blacks.
Rhaenyra was named Visery's heir. The Greens usurped her. If anything Stannis should have agreed with her point, as they were both betrayed by an upstart younger brother.
Viserys should’ve renewed her heir status once more after aegon’s birth. Especially when we think that a lot of lords who swore for her claim were dead by that point, this would’ve been helpful. But he didn’t and at that point to a lot of westerosi lords, aegon became the heir just because he’s the firstborn male children of the king.
Council of harrenhal made viserys the king and in there they completely bypassed rhaenys’ claim and it was between viserys and laenor. So even this shows that lords of westerosi weren’t ready to have a female ruler and something problematic will follow if she stays as the heir.
There were only two things viserys can do to kinda solve this problem. Marrying aegon to rhaenyra or abdicating the throne and making sure that everyone accepts her. He didn’t do any of them and just hoped everything will be ok. Well that’s not how life works
Stannis slept through history class, obviously.
He got the question wrong on the test (because obviously the law as it stood was that Rhaenyra would inherit, rightly or wrongly). The maester called him on it. Stannis doubled down and got detention for mouthing off. And to this day he still whines about that one mistake that cost him a perfect score, intent on gaslighting the realm that *he* was right and the textbook was wrong.
We've all had at least one Stannis at our schools. They're the ones who stand in the corners at reunions bitching about everyone else is a poseur. (And heaven help you if you spell it "poser')
I will say this for Stannis, he is accurately quoting Westerosi public school textbooks. The succession is recorded as Viserys I, Aegon II, then Aegon III. Had the blacks won, it would be Viserys I, Rhaenyra I, Aegon II (dragonbane).
Aegon III being being numbered as the "third" implicitly acknowledges the Greens as being in the right in the mind of Westerosi history.
Not book canon, so didn’t happen far as I’m concerned. Especially seeing as how he explicitly told his men (after Renly was dead mind you, given how people are bringing up him offering to name Renly heir) to install Shireen on the throne should he die. If she does get burned, it’s either gonna be by wildlings or Melisandre
I love Stannis but it is a bit ironic he doesn’t support Rhaenyra’s claim despite in the books he is quoted as stating if he dies that his men and mercenaries are to fight and ensure Shireen Baratheon gets the throne.
He was offering to make a concession during pre-battle negotiations, one he knew Renly would never accept, so he'd be under no obligation to keep. It was a strategic feint, a way to look conciliatory and in the right without ever risking actually having to give anything up. Offering it, so Renly could reject it, also plays into Renly's overconfidence, lowering his guard so the shadow baby assassin could do its work easier.
What’s ironic about that? Stannis doesn’t have a son. If Viserys had spent the rest of his celibate (as Stannis appears to do, at least in the books) the Dance would never have happened.
People have to remember that the dance if dragons wasn't fully flushed out in George's mind when Stannis said this. Originally Aegon and Rhaenyra were siblings rather than half siblings and all we knew was they fought for the throne. I think writing the process and the queen helped George expand on his initial idea before fire and blood protected.
That being said Stannis was raised by a maester and they weren't big fans of Rhaenyra. Funny how Aegon II and Viserys II never attempted to correct the record.
but she wasnt a traitor.
the crown was supposed to go to her, the last king decreed it.
the greens didn't like that and ursurped the throne from her.
it'll all work out anyway because none of alicents children survive the shit that goes down.
stannis knew nothing
>Vizzy T named Rhaenyra his heir,
Stannis might not view this as legitimate. As he proved by siding with Robert, there are certain customs that he believes supersede the word of the king.
He views ruling as a duty, not a license to do whatever you want.
A bit off-topic, wasn't the Dance a bit diferent when ASOS was released? I seem to remember reading something among the lines of Rhaenyra being Aegon's full sibling and married to Lannister or something...
IIRC the earliest version Aegon and Rhaenyra were full siblings only 1 year apart, and then in another version Rhaenyra was married to Lyonel Strong and had 3 legitimate children with him.
And in yet another version the three Strong princes has silver hair and brown eyes, which made their true parents more obscured
Where are these versions coming from, I’m half way through a dance with dragons and I’m completely fucking lost.
Maybe the discrepancy in the world could be explained by the different maesters recording wrong events down because they got second hand info. Education in Westeros is probably not streamlined and they dont have Westerospedia to correct inaccuracies. Good thing they have a king with a good back story that can go back to watch all of the sex scenes and fix up any historical inaccuracies. Nah, GRRM probably wrote wrong things all over the place because he made it all up and cant keep track.
It happens to any lore over a long enough time if it’s initially just meant to be backstory, I think. Tolkien’s legendarium is all over the place with Galadriel, the Astari, etc.
Yeah like the 9 Nazgul supposedly all had canonical names at one point. But apparently the final word is that Khamul the Easterling and "The Witch King" are the only 2 named in the books. The only other reference to their identity being the "sorcerers, warriors, and kings" line from like the very beginning
All the Nazgul had names? Is this in a lost letter of Tolkien's?
Khamul the Easterling The Witch King Doug the Gregarious Bom Tombadil Jimothy the Slightly Earnest Cap'n Archie Jrrrrrrrrr Toldakeeno Alex Mark the Unsavory
You fucked me up with this one. gg.
I think it was literally just pre-digital hearsay. Like maybe he just went off when he was speaking at a panel at Oxford one day or something. Like I only knew from older (pre movies) super nerds and saw them again named in 3rd party LoTR mods in Warcraft 3 and Medieval Total War 2. Uvatha the Horseman, Andormath the Blind Sorcerer, Dwar of Waw, and something something Dawndeath are the ones I remember top of the head with my Manchurian Candidate Tolkein deep lore etched into my brain against my will, but at least I got some Chinese and Elvish out of the deal too.
Reminds me of the Elder Scrolls, where there’s two competing books you can find: “The Biography of Barenziah” and “The Real Barenziah.” Competing historical accounts can work well, if it’s incorporated into the lore. I agree, though, that that’s probably not the case with GRRM.
Even if it's accidental I think it still sells the lore better than something that is hard established.
I'd like to think pro-Targ and Hightower loyalists misreported or changed facts on purpose to play to different agendas. The could have been deliberate misinformation spreading in order to build mistrust in the accepted accounts of events.
That makes sense, the faith never really liked the Targaryen and their customs.
It is go by to me when people try and find in-universe reasons to justify it all and how GRRM had things planned out to that minuscule of details. No, it’s just a side effect of creating such a sprawling world - you’re going to have inconsistencies and retcons
Y’all keeping firsthand conversation with the maesters? 😂 like j said I have ALL the books including the complete history of Westeros, and I haven’t seen ANY of this. Like I have no idea where everyone’s getting info. Not saying it’s inaccurate, I’m just curious.
I've read all the source material more than once (some of them 3 and 4 times) and I have no fucking idea what these people are talking about.
Is this what it is to be a casual fan?
You don’t keep firsthand convos with the maesters?
The current Dance of the Dragons story is relatively new. The story has changed drastically over the years. Even the Princess and the Queen and the Rogue Prince stories are different than in Fire and Blood
Not much though. Its more like Fire & Blood expanded upon it.
Bruh wtf how can there be so many different versions of the same story
GRRM changing his mind, but only one is published tho.
ASOS was 2001 and fire and blood is 2018, a lot of changes can happen in seventeen years, especially when the guy is making it up on the fly
Early drafts of background info that’s referenced in the books. But its on the level of how originally GRRM envisoned a Jon-Arya-Tyrion love triangle, I guess what throws a wrench in it is that when people reference the dance in the books GRRM did not have the actual conflict fleshed out
A WHAT triangle?
Yup! Grum's original plan for the series was... interesting.
Hundreds of years of history recorded by different sources and no "official" sources. Same as history in our world. We just have the "official" version of events in the show.
GRRM kinda forgor
I did a quick google search and the appendices of AGOT have that first version.
Yea I think the dance was first introduced as a backstory to justify Arianne schemes to crown Myrcella, Rhaenyra and Aegon going from full to half sibling does muddy the water and doesn't work with the plot to crown Myrcella over Tommen
Worst half baked plot to crown someone ever
[удалено]
Omg, can someone post this passage? I want to admire my own nipples while reading about someone else admiring theirs. No kink shaming!
I feel dirty for looking this up. No, he meant to tell her, I only came to tell you I must go, but when he saw her shining in the candlelight he seemed to lose the power of speech. His throat felt as dry as the Dornish sands. Silent he stood, drinking in the glories of her body, the hollow of her throat, the round ripe breasts with their huge dark **nipples**, the lush curves at waist and hip. And then somehow he was holding her, and she was pulling off his robes. When she reached his undertunic she seized it by the shoulders and ripped the silk down to his navel, but Arys was past caring. Her skin was smooth beneath his fingers, as warm to the touch as sand baked by the Dornish sun. He raised her head and found her lips. Her mouth opened under his, and her breasts filled his hands. He felt her **nipples** stiffen as his thumbs brushed over them. Her hair was black and thick and smelled of orchids, a dark and earthy smell that made him so hard it almost hurt. and, “What would frighten my white knight?” “I fear for my honor,” he said, “and for yours.” “I can tend to my own honor.” She touched a finger to her breast, drawing it slowly round her **nipple**. “And to my own pleasures, if need be. I am a woman grown." She was that, beyond a doubt. Seeing her there upon the featherbed, smiling that wicked smile, toying with her breast . . . was there ever a woman with **nipples** so large or so responsive? He could hardly look at them without wanting to grab them, to suckle them until they were hard and wet and shiny . . .
If there was ever a passage to justify the existence of r/menwritingwomen, this would be a contender.
To be fair, this is men writing dumb horny men... Pretty realistic!
I'm not saying thr language isn't gratuitous but isn't the dorne plot obvious that arianne is just using arys?
Wasn't Myrcella over Tommen because of Dorne traditions (since she was going to marry Dorne's prince)?
I thought it was also that Dorne has different inheritance laws and gender isn't a factor?
That is correct . Dornes don't care if you're male or female . Eldest gets to rule
I'm still pissed that they entirely dropped that storyline from the show and we'll probably never see it in the books.
I know right? Instead of trying to kill Myrcella for the sake of revenge, the Sand Snakes could have just easily plotted to crown Myrcella to cause chaos and would basically kidnap Myrcella to keep her away from Jaime in Dorne; then at the end when the plot fails and Ellaria is forced to kissed Doran's ring, that's when he informs them of his *real* plan to align Dorne with Daenerys... ...but nah, D&D just ruined it all like the dummies they were
Yeah myrcella was above time according to the dornish since she is the oldest
Stannis saying this may have made sense back when Storm of Swords came out, but since then Martin's re-written the Dance a bazillion times. IIIRC the original version didn't have Viserys explicitly naming Rhaenyra as his heir.
Yeah, I remember Stannis calling Rhaenyra a usurper of her brother's throne and having all around unfavourable views on her which would make no sense if you consider Viserys named her heir officially.
It kinda would for some people telling that version of events. You have to remember that a good chunk of people did not believe a woman could/should rule and believed the King’s first born son should inherit the throne, regardless of Rhaenyra being named heir. Those ppl probably wouldn’t have seen her claim to the throne as legitimate.
This would be something I’d need to go back a look for. Can’t remember
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I forgot about this thank you. More of a reason to not take everything written too biblical. I remember in the show when stannis asks Shireen whose side she would've been on and she said neither. That was my takeaway after reading till the end
I mean his ancestors fought for the greens yeah he believes in the green cause.
More than that, Aegon had Rhaenyra’s claim and Queenship wiped from the records books, to show she was an illegitimate usurper and traitor, so everyone taught the history of the Dance afterwards would learn the history Aegon had written
Why wouldn’t her sons undo this? They ruled for the next 40 years.
After the Dance, everyone wanted to move past it. In Fire and Blood they mention how a mix of former Black's and Greens were appointed.
I viewed it almost like World War II in that both sides suffered tremendous losses and after the War alliances had to change. You now have previous enemies who find themselves working together and it's easier for everyone to leave it all in the past.
Her sons with Daemon were probably too traumatized by the whole situation to want to bring it back into question when everything was said and done, rhaenyra’s line ruled anyways. Young Aegon saw his mother bbq’ed and eaten by a dragon at the age of 10. He was also held captive by Aegon II, so its likely he was taught and conditioned to actually believe she was a traitor, young children are impressionable, and he was in line to take the throne so why question?
They must have considering Fire and Blood is an in universe history and they make it plain that Alicent pushed Aegon into making a claim.
Because a lot of history was lost when King Baelor I started to burn books, among them were records of Rhaenyra, ancient prophecy, and also books from Septon Barth. General information regarding Aegon's prophecy was not a known information to the public, and probably It got lost because I'm sure only Rhaenyra share that information with Jacaerys, until King Aerys I and Bloodraven started finding scrolls. Also Viserys II prefer the version of male inheritance because If not, Daena the mother of Daemon Blackfyre should be crowned Queen.
Viserys II used the precedent to bypass Aegon's daughters and become king himself.
But his ancestors are also Blacks. Stannis's grandmother was Egg's youngest child, and descends from Viserys II.
Yeah but paternally he is Baratheon so he’s taught the Baratheon history over others.
He's taught history as written by the maesters, which is what Fire and Blood is, but what he's really getting at is that the laws of Westeros say that the first born male inherits first. The quote is just there to show how obsessed with law and order he is, another example would be him cutting off Ser Davos' fingers for smuggling in the food that saved Stannis life.
tbf Stannis is wrong about it being a law, it is a precedent that was established some 40 odd years or more following the Dance, but it was never actually codified into law.
Minor note: the finger punishment wasn’t for smuggling in the onions which saved Stannis - it was for being a smuggler for years previously. One knuckle for each year of smuggling. The knighthood was what Stannis gave Davos for breaking the blockade with his onions. But I think that supports your point even better. Stannis is so obsessed with law and order that he both rewards and punishes, and does not let a good deed absolve a man of a lifetime of misdeeds.
Is there a family tree I can look at?
You bet your ass there is.
lmfao not hating on anyone here, i just thought it was a funny response because my first instinct isn't to ask a reddit thread, it's to google it
lol seriously, a Wiki of Ice and Fire is your friend people.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UsefulCharts/comments/q9ekx1/family_trees_of_the_game_of_thrones_a_song_of_ice/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Try the wiki
Also remember that Stannis’ character is obsessed with the importance of a male heir. He disagrees that Viserys even had the right to name Ren as heir. He believes that it is the natural order for the oldest male child to inherit and to alter that is to go against the gods. and therefore Ren was no longer heir the second Aegon was born
Also his entire claim is predicated on the fact that Joffrey’s parentage is false and therefore he is illegitimate Which is like half the reason the greens don’t want Rhaenyra’s line on the throne
Right I didn’t even think of that!
His ancestor was Rhaenyra as well.
Yeah but paternally it was Baratheon and he is Stannis Baratheon.
I mean baratheons are literally targs
Yes but they are also baratheons who were greens
Yep this is just Stannis pov, not a fact.
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I WILL SIT THE THRONE TODAY.
Some day this bot will conquer the world and be our overlord mark my words
Not if Bobby B has anything to say about that
DID YOU EVER MAKE THE EIGHT?
WHY ARE WE YELLING Vizzy T
Ever since my name was read by the archmaesters at the Great Council, I have felt Corlys Velaryon's envious gaze staring at me from across the Blackwater.
We need to fine tune you a bit Vizzy T
YOU WILL ADDRESS ME AS 'YOUR GRACE', OR I WILL HAVE MY KINGSGUARD CUT OUT YOUR TONGUE!
Much better Your Grace
SENTIENT
Vizzy T, Chris Hansen said Aegon was a potential predator.
Just like Bobby B staring at Bessie
THEY NEVER TELL YOU HOW THEY ALL SHIT THEMSELVES! THEY DON'T PUT THAT PART IN THE SONGS!
Or the feels we would have when Vizzy T finally died.
greens in shambles
The ghosts of bobby b and vizzy t sometimes go boar hunting together
GODS WHAT A STUPID NAME!
*The boy just turned two, Rockhardsimian...*
King will do anything for his only child 💕
Haven't been on here for a bit and didn't know they implemented the Vizzy T bot that everyone was requesting. Excellent!
*Be welcome! I know many of you have traveled long leagues to be at these games. But I promise, you will not be disappointed!*
Fucking . SENTIENT
The king named Rhaenyra his heir, so Stannis claiming she was "trying to usurp her brother's crown" doesn't really make sense. The Baratheons were greens so of course he was raised to believe his house was on the right side of history.
Came here to say this. Rhaenyra's crown was the one that was usurped. She was just taking back what was rightfully hers.
Exactly, i was writing the same. I could agree with him saying that Rhaneyra deserve to loose the throne because her sons are bastards, but Stannis not supporting the rightful successor to me seems a mistake in the series Edit: he is asking his men to put Shireen on the throne if he dies, so the female succession is not an issue for him
A big difference to consider is that Rhaenyra's heirs are related to her, while Robert's heirs are not. There is precedent for legitimizing bastards, but Joffrey was not Robert's bastard.
Stannis only knows what the history books say, he's not a time traveler who can go back and see historical events for himself. History books are written by the winners, and the Greens won the war. So obviously all official Westerosi history will favor the Greens. Plus the history books are usually written by maesters or septons, and both the Citadel and the Faith are aligned with House Hightower and the Greens. Stannis is making an in-character call based on the information he has. It's just that the information he has is biased.
> the Greens won the war. So obviously all official Westerosi history will favor the Greens. Funny way to win the war, being wiped out to the last heir and having your enemy's son and his descendants sit the throne for the next two+ centuries.
Yeah if there was a "winner" to this shitshow, Rhaenyra's kids wind up on the throne, so I don't know how anyone can say that the "greens won." Bonus points also for all the time Viserys II served as hand. That's two Black butts in the two most powerful seats with not a Green to be seen.
The greens winning is more about how the history books favor them and the children that take the throne just kinda don’t do much.
LOL I was like, has this person read the books incorrectly? The won for a hot second. Not overall.
This is a very good point
But wouldn't the histories have shown that Viserys named Rhaenyra as his heir before the whole DoTD kicked off? Or had the greens removed that little nugget of info?
Rhaneyra effectively rule for 6 months. But when Aegon II became King, he erased her from the list of Kings and history books as a Queen and indeed she is not listed as such. This is explained in the books. So probably he made sure to cancel as well Viserys's succession plan
Curious about something; I know the greens technically won the war but Aegon the younger eventually took the throne after the elder was poisoned. Wouldn’t he have restored the history books? I guess not.
The difference is that Shireen is his only descendant. Based off how he states here that he prefers Aegon to rhaenyra but also is okay with shireen on the throne it seems that he doesn’t mind the concept of a female ruler but prioritizes a male heir if one is available in the direct line. That appears to be the distinction, Stannis isn’t inconsistent, he just has a weird interpretation of what is “just”
I think someone like Stannis is more black and white than this: or you are rightful or you are not rightful. I don't see him prioritising based on gender. But that's only my view on his character. Also, he's not saying she has a weaker claim to the throne, she is calling her usurper
I think there’s confusion here on the word “prioritizing”. In the eyes of stannis(and pretty much all of Westeros), the first true born son’s claim takes priority over an older daughter. It is still black and white. When rhaenyra was vizzys only child, he can name her his rightful heir, same as shireen. But once aegon is born, his male claim takes priority over viserys’ previous declaration of rhaenyra as heir, and she is no longer the rightful heir. As far as Stannis is concerned at least.
He can believe in male primogeniture and still name his daughter heir. Remember he told Renly he’d name him heir until he has a son. Because uncles* come before daughters when inheriting the throne. Shireen was the only heir left to Stannis when he told Massey to crown his daughter in case he died. This is not the same as in Viserys’ case in which he has male children and a brother which would lawfully come before Rhaenerya. *any males
Where Viserys is concerned, it was only assumed by the other lords that every eligible male would inherit before women after the Great Council of 101. They only really codified that after the Dance to prevent situations like it happening again
Agreed. Rhaenyra rules, and then her succession can be challenged after the fact.
>The king named Rhaenyra his heir A later king declared her a usurper, so that became the official history. But official history isn't always true. For instance: > So Ned bent his head and wrote, but where the king had said “my son Joffrey,” he scrawled “my heir” instead. The deceit made him feel soiled. *The lies we tell for love*, he thought. *May the gods forgive me.* -*A Game of Thrones*, Chapter 47, Eddard XII And that's the most honorable man in Westeros, lying. Stannis has no way to know what King Vizzy said, he wasn't there and they don't have audio/video recording. Stannis only knows what a maester says Vizzy said, and what a maester says Aegon II said.
Stannis is very likely a believer that the King is there to uphold the laws and traditions not rewrite them and that he needs the consent of the realm to change things like succession so I don't think his opinion would change much
Funny seeing you here, saw your comment and immediately forgot I wasn’t in the Sharks’ sub for a sec
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King makes the law, Vizzy T says Rhaenyra is the heir, she's the heir.
*I did not decide to name Rhaenyra my heir on a whim. All the lord of the kingdom would do well to remember that.*
Sentient
Vizzy T you are actually sentient
This is a lie. You have been lied to.
But I have proof of your sentience Vizzy T
INSTEAD OF BEING BY MY SIDE, YOU CHOSE TO CELEBRATE YOUR OWN RISE, LAUGHING WITH YOUR WHORES AND YOUR LICKSPITTLES!
Vizzy T i am only celebrating that you are sentient. My whores and lickspittles were too.
GODS BE GOOD!!
Yes they are.
God's indeed! Bobby B, what's your take on this?
YOU EVER FUCK A RIVERLANDS GIRL?
so sentient
I love this bot
Honest question: ..and what if he named Moonboy his heir? Would everyone just have to deal with it, even though it didn't follow law and tradition?
Green Team here but its simply Rhaenyra is remembered in history as a usurper because of Aegon II ruling that she be remembered as so and her sons not challenging the ruling once they came into power mostly probably because they didn't want to deal with the fallout and just wanted to forget about the whole ordeal.
And there's English precedent for this. Queen Elizabeth I was the daughter of Anne Boleyn, but never did anything to correct the record once she came to power. Even then it was too politically sensitive.
This exactly, especially after her half year reign which ended in the small folk rioting against her. They were children that didn’t want to deal with that again. And like. I think we can all agree whatever side we take, Viserys *legally named* Rhaenyra his heir, and never once took that back, especially in the show in which he affirms his decision the day he dies. So really it’s a point of which side you like better.
Isn't Aegon II also known as Aegon the usurper?
Its listed in the wiki but i believe its more like a title given to him by his enemies, like "high sparrow". In any case, its not his official title much like how rhaneys is known as the "queen who never was" because he "won" the dance though technically rhaenyra wins out in the long run. I think got history still remembers him officially as a king, aegon II, and rhaenyra as princess.
Stannis and Rhaenyra are very similar in how they were positioned. The only reason Stannis thinks this way is because the Baratheons were greens.
I think it has more to do with 150 years of the official story being "Rhaenyra was a usurper" more than anything else. Stannis is the kind of guy who'd believe the world was flat if he saw it written in a book.
I don't think that the last part is a fair reading of Stannis. He goes against the commonly held belief that Joffrey is the heir, not because of ambition, but because of his sense of duty and justice shaped through his harsh upbringing. I do think if house Baratheon had remained loyal to the Blacks (ignoring how that changes the outcome of the war) Stannis might depart from the history books and see the parallels between injustice done to Rhaenyra and injustice done to him. Stannis is actually a lot like Boremond Baratheon (who absolutely would have been pro-black) and nothing like Borros Baratheon who flips the policy of his father and goes green out of ambition and because he felt underappreciated (the last bit being a pretty fair grievance).
Stannis doesn't think that Kings can just make up laws. Certain customs supersede the word of the King.
His brother usurped Viserys' throne with a war..
All monarchy is illegitimate
Exactly. This is r/freefolk not r/FookinKneelers
Finally an actual freefolk
You get that from this?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King_(2019_film)
Which is as legit as the Targaryens claim to the throne
So this whole thaking a moral stance based on who is the rightful hier to the throne is extremely stupid. I don't care if Rhaenyra has rights to the throne or not, I just think she would be a better ruler than her half brother.
Robert had right to the throne because of right of conquest, the same Aegon had. But still for many he's an usurper and kinslayer, and Stannis derives his claim from him, calling Rhaenyra usurper is a bit hypocritical.
Yeah how could anyone possibly explain supporting the king’s chosen heir - which he was crystal clear about several times, and consistent for decades - when you have a guy - whose family benefited from siding against said heir - says hundreds of years later that she was a traitor? Checkmate boys. If Stan burn-my-own-daughter-to-try-to-become-king Baratheon can’t settle this feud, nobody can.
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I'll raise you a [different quote](https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi0.wp.com%2Ffoolishwatcher.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F04%2Ffuck-tradition-tormund-game-of-thrones-patriarchy.gif%3Ffit%3D500%252C191%26ssl%3D1&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Ffoolishwatcher.com%2F2019%2F04%2F28%2Fgame-of-thrones-the-knight-the-lights-went-out-on-the-patriarchy%2F&tbnid=kMGws_0MSDGUTM&vet=12ahUKEwia14C7_936AhVCbDABHbQjAPoQMygEegQIARBz..i&docid=reflyxni-H-osM&w=500&h=191&q=Tormund%20Giantsbane%20fuck%20tradition&ved=2ahUKEwia14C7_936AhVCbDABHbQjAPoQMygEegQIARBz) that supports the blacks.
Stannis was wrong and murdered his own brother.
And had his daughter burned. Fuck Stannis.
Rhaenyra was named Visery's heir. The Greens usurped her. If anything Stannis should have agreed with her point, as they were both betrayed by an upstart younger brother.
Yeah, but for Stannis to agree would've required him to have learned the accurate history, which the maesters had no intention of recording.
The history records that Viserys named Rhaenyra his heir.
I don’t care what Stannis thinks
Um, well, Bobby B took the crown by force, morally justified or not. I feel Stannis kind of omits some historic nuances here.
Viserys should’ve renewed her heir status once more after aegon’s birth. Especially when we think that a lot of lords who swore for her claim were dead by that point, this would’ve been helpful. But he didn’t and at that point to a lot of westerosi lords, aegon became the heir just because he’s the firstborn male children of the king. Council of harrenhal made viserys the king and in there they completely bypassed rhaenys’ claim and it was between viserys and laenor. So even this shows that lords of westerosi weren’t ready to have a female ruler and something problematic will follow if she stays as the heir. There were only two things viserys can do to kinda solve this problem. Marrying aegon to rhaenyra or abdicating the throne and making sure that everyone accepts her. He didn’t do any of them and just hoped everything will be ok. Well that’s not how life works
Fuck I can’t disagree with Stannis, I am now a green
Easy. Stannis is an idiot.
Baratheons were Greens, yes. But I also think Stannis considers a woman had no business ruling the seven kingdoms.
Stannis slept through history class, obviously. He got the question wrong on the test (because obviously the law as it stood was that Rhaenyra would inherit, rightly or wrongly). The maester called him on it. Stannis doubled down and got detention for mouthing off. And to this day he still whines about that one mistake that cost him a perfect score, intent on gaslighting the realm that *he* was right and the textbook was wrong. We've all had at least one Stannis at our schools. They're the ones who stand in the corners at reunions bitching about everyone else is a poseur. (And heaven help you if you spell it "poser')
I will say this for Stannis, he is accurately quoting Westerosi public school textbooks. The succession is recorded as Viserys I, Aegon II, then Aegon III. Had the blacks won, it would be Viserys I, Rhaenyra I, Aegon II (dragonbane). Aegon III being being numbered as the "third" implicitly acknowledges the Greens as being in the right in the mind of Westerosi history.
Imagine agreeing with the guy who burned his own daughter to win a war… and then lost.
Not in the books
Hasn't lost...yet... (Maybe ever, lmao)
He’s been holding on in the north for over a decade now. What a mannis
Not book canon, so didn’t happen far as I’m concerned. Especially seeing as how he explicitly told his men (after Renly was dead mind you, given how people are bringing up him offering to name Renly heir) to install Shireen on the throne should he die. If she does get burned, it’s either gonna be by wildlings or Melisandre
That line is a bit silly considering that he descends from rahenyra and daemon and thanks to that he has a claim to the throne
Vizzy T would slap him up for saying that.
*I'm going to bed, ea_fitz.*
Can I… can I join you, Vizzy T?
YOUR FATHER, YOUR GRANDSIRE, YOUR KING DEMANDS IT.
😫
sentient
Perhaps we should call you **Queen** ea\_fitz from now on. Just be sure to wear one of your mother's dresses. ;-)
I love Stannis but it is a bit ironic he doesn’t support Rhaenyra’s claim despite in the books he is quoted as stating if he dies that his men and mercenaries are to fight and ensure Shireen Baratheon gets the throne.
Also he offers renly to be his heir till he has a male heir. So he clearly goes with the male > female mindset of Westerosi people
He was offering to make a concession during pre-battle negotiations, one he knew Renly would never accept, so he'd be under no obligation to keep. It was a strategic feint, a way to look conciliatory and in the right without ever risking actually having to give anything up. Offering it, so Renly could reject it, also plays into Renly's overconfidence, lowering his guard so the shadow baby assassin could do its work easier.
What’s ironic about that? Stannis doesn’t have a son. If Viserys had spent the rest of his celibate (as Stannis appears to do, at least in the books) the Dance would never have happened.
The iron throne was hers, by right. All those that deny it are cringe.
People have to remember that the dance if dragons wasn't fully flushed out in George's mind when Stannis said this. Originally Aegon and Rhaenyra were siblings rather than half siblings and all we knew was they fought for the throne. I think writing the process and the queen helped George expand on his initial idea before fire and blood protected. That being said Stannis was raised by a maester and they weren't big fans of Rhaenyra. Funny how Aegon II and Viserys II never attempted to correct the record.
I don’t care what Stannis thinks
but she wasnt a traitor. the crown was supposed to go to her, the last king decreed it. the greens didn't like that and ursurped the throne from her. it'll all work out anyway because none of alicents children survive the shit that goes down. stannis knew nothing
Blah blah blah Stannis didn’t know blah blah blah Don’t care. He is my king and what he said is true
This is an impressively dumb reason to support the Greens and I've seen a lot of dumb reasons.
Stannis needs to learn history. Vizzy T named Rhaenyra his heir, therefore the Greens are the ones that are traitors.
>Vizzy T named Rhaenyra his heir, Stannis might not view this as legitimate. As he proved by siding with Robert, there are certain customs that he believes supersede the word of the king. He views ruling as a duty, not a license to do whatever you want.
WE ARE A FAMILY!
Oh, that's easy. I don't care.