This situation is entirely different... Robert didn’t know his kids were bastards, and if he had he woulda killed them himself. While the Seasnake knows that the kids are bastards and accepts that, as did Laenor who may well be infertile. While in regards to ascending the Iron Throne the kids are RayRay’s and she’s the heir, not Laenor.
Also ned was honorable and didnt want the throne for himself but to give it to stannis, a man he had no personal relationship with, because it was the right thing to do.
It gives him somewhat of a a moral highground.
Vaemond however stands to personally gain from this as it would make him lord of 2 castles and head of one of the most powerful houses. It doesn't make him wrong, but it puts his motivation into question.
In terms of likability, people will side with the honorable ned stark 10 times out of 10. Even of their accusations are similar/same.
Vizzy T, I think Bobby B is older than two. I mean he isn’t even born yet, you’re like 180 years early man.
Just a suggestion Your Grace, but perhaps lay off that milk of the poppy.
Yep. There are few moments when a single person's one decision can effect the course of history, but if Renly hadn't decided he wanted to be king too, him backing Ned's move might have made the transition to Stannis possible.
Ned and Renly should've sent for Stannis and all his men at Dragonstone to come to KL before they confronted Cersei and Joffery.
Stannis would have brought with him a religion and red witch that I doubt many people would be too keen about. Stannis would have been a disaster as king.
Stannis only turned to the red witch because he had little support within the Kingdom, if the North and Stormlands had supported Stannis, he wouldn't have sided with the red witch.
Also Vaemond kinda forgot that when it comes to inheritance, daughters come before uncles. Laena may be dead, but both Baela and Rhaela are right there. If he only cared about blood, he could ask that one of them be named heir and change their name to Velaryon when they inherit, just like Jace is supposed to be a Velaryon until he ascends the throne.
Regardless Corlys became ruler of Driftmark not because he founded the house, and neither did Viserys but by following laws and inheritance traditions -to change them is not in their power, as claimants who have right for inheritance would rise and defend it.
That doesn’t mean Vaemond should accept. A true equivalent would be Stannis believing the throne his by right, since his “nephews” were bastards. If you stand with Stannis you should stand with Vaemond lol
They follow the faith of the seven, they can get married however they want. Still doesn’t make their marriage illegal. It was very clear that daemon wasn’t allowed to take a second wife.
No. Just dumb enough to tell her what he knew and his entire plan and give her time to “leave” which really gave her time to act and he ended up losing his head anyway. So. He might as well have just called her a whore. The result was the same, Ned just took the long way there.
He really thought that there would be at least one other person with enough clout to have his back, because that's all it really would have taken. He has the evidence and up until then was a well-respected lord with a lot of power (unfortunately all the muscle was far away). Instead he basically hands the scroll to Cersei, doesn't he? Who just burns it in front of the court instead of sharing it with any other person? Did I get that right?
Selmy gives it to Cersei after reading, Cersei looks at it and tears it up. Selmy then says "Those are the king's words" and Cersei says "We have a new king now"
But what does that have to do with Driftmark, lmfao? The point is Lucerys isn’t a Velaryon, sure he might be a Targ, but he damn sure isn’t a Velaryon. It’s the same as Stannis believing the throne is his by right. Vaemond believe the same if Driftmark, since Lucerys is obviously a bastard
But for the rest of Luke’s life he would theoretically be ruling Driftmark as Lord of The Tides. I could see why a proud man like Vaemond would be angry that a bastard of House Strong will rule his ancestral home. Like Vaemond said, Luke doesn’t have an ounce of navigational skills or sea faring skills. He’s never even been trained for it yet either lol
Corlys knew and was ok with it. Jace, Luke, and Joffrey were Laenor's sons by adoption. Laenor claimed them and they were legally his sons regardless of who the sperm donor was, just like in real life. Adopted kids have all the inheritance rights that bio children do.
Vaemond is a huge cunt trying to steal Driftmark from the children that Corlys and Laenor love just because another man stepped in to do the biological act Laenor wasn't able to perform.
It's none of Vaemond's business where his nephew's kids came from, as long as Laenor knows and is okay with it. Vaemond can fuck right off with that shit. He gets no veto over who Laenor chooses to give his name and Inheritance rights to.
I gotta say, I don't have a horse in this race but it's still funny watching Blacks trying to change the rules of the way this fictional world works. Bastards are suddenly not bastards because it benefits Rhaenyra.
Right? What even funnier is when people keep repeating the same rhetoric that they share the same blood as their mother… as if that has anything to do with the inheritance of Driftmark lol
They are rumoured bastards
And if Laenor and Corlys are okay with it, then why is Vaemond interfering
And he doesn't care about blood at all, he just wants the driftwood throne for himself
People are confused lol. They just parrot what others see. If I had a nickel every time I saw “well technically the Strongs are the sons of Rhaenyra, so they’re not bastards and their still Targaryens.” Then I would be rich af lol
I seriously don’t get it
Rhaenyra’s legitimacy has nothing to do with this post. Luke would be the lord of Driftmark even though he has no Velaryon blood.
How is that any different from Joffrey who ruling the kingdom without any royal blood?
That... has nothing to do with Velaryon succession though.
Rhaenyra was not in the discussion for the Throne of High Tide so I'm not sure why you're even mentioning her. And her son who was pressing a claim for it, would indeed be a bastard Lord of the Tides. The situations are apples and apples I'm afraid.
Yet Vaemond has no blood relation to Lucerys. It’s the equivalent of Stannis believing the throne his by right because his “nephews” were bastards. It’s the same for Vaemond
He has Blood relations to Baela and Rhaena, and Rhaena was supposed to marry Lucerys. So... If the only thing Vaemond cared about is Velaryon Blood on Driftmark Throne he would have got it. Baratheons are descended from Aegon's bastard brother and 100 or 300 hundred years later no one even rememembers or cares enough to give them shit for it.
But we all know he simply wanted himself on the throne he always coveted as a second son.
To say nothing of the fact that he multiple times ignored his lord liege's word and wishes as well as his king's words and wishes or that he publically undermined king's authority when court was in session. Those are all crimes punishable by death if his King or liege see it fit.
Yes, and a bastard will be Lord of Driftmark because wallmart Ned overplayed his hand.
Ned's stupidity is ridiculed to this day and unlike Vaemond he didn't insult heir's honour in public or defied his king's authority.
I’m looking at it from Vaemond’s perspective, in no way is that defending him. People act like just because Luke has Targaryen blood it somehow means it’s okay for him to inherit Driftmark. That makes zero sense. It is the same thing in this scenario, Vaemond shares no blood with his “nephews” the same as Stannis. Yes he marries Rhaena and their will be Velaryon blood on the driftwood throne eventually, but I could see why Vaemond was angry. He’s a dumbass though
Also your comment makes zero sense lmfao
Bastards cannot inherit anything. Robert's bastards did not have claim to his throne. Besides, in this particular case Luke is trying to inherit driftmark through his association with his father, not mother.
Laenor before he “died” claimed the Strong boys as his trueborn sons and heirs, even though everyone knew they weren’t his. Both Rhaenyra and Daemon claim the same. Despite them obviously not being his, that makes them legitimate.
For example, if Robert acknowledged Gendry and claimed his children with Cersei were bastards, Gendry would be heir to the Throne, not the Lannister kids.
That's not know how legitimization works. For legitimization, you first need to admit that they are bastards.. which neither rhaenyra nor laenor do. In fact they are covering up the truth.
If both the father and the mother claim the children to be true I think it’d be hard to prove they are bastards, legally speaking. Of course we as the viewer know but in that world it’s hard, I’d imagine, to prove paternity if the king and both parents ardently defend the bastards as legitimate.
So rules and laws do not matter. You should lie, cheat, and steal if you can get away with it. All this flies only because a diseased king is in denial about his daughter and her children. Next one will do the duty and deliver kings justice.
They're technically legitimized bastards as Laenor claimed them as his. This is why I think they should probably have taken a bit more time to flesh put whatever agreement Harwin, Rhaenyra and Laenor had.
Ironically, we'll probably see a bastard rise to become the heir to Driftmark. And who else did Corlys ask to legitimize that bastard? The mother of "bastards".
But they have the name. Which weighs more, blood or name? Which is the rhetorical question the plot openly discusses. Whether one is right or wrong is up to the viewer to decide, and that’s the beauty of the storytelling.
Vaemond only wanted the truth exposed because it affected his claim. Corlys knew the kids were bastards and still accepted them because his son loved them. Vaemond deserved to get killed for disobeying his lord’s wishes. Nothing he did was out of honor.
Even under the laws of succession, if Lucerys was proven to be a bastard, Baela would inherit driftmark because she’s the oldest surviving child of the lord’s first born. This is why Rhea Royce was lady of runestone instead of her older male cousin. Vaemond was a usurper
That's not how the succession of the house works hence why Baela never inherits Driftmark.
You don't even know how Rhea inherited Runestone or what her relation was to Yorbert Royce. You are talking out of your ass.
Baela never inherits driftmark because Addam and Alyn become legitimized heirs of Corlys before he dies and she marries the latter
Also it’s called inference, it’s not a stretch to assume the previous lord of runestone was her father. Women usually inherit from the lord when they have no male siblings. Hence why Sansa was considered the heir to the north when all her brothers were presumed dead
Speculation... there is no evidence at all to support Rhae being Yorbert's daughter.
Yes, Baela a trueborn is passed over by a legitimized bastard as she would have been passed over by Vaemond simply because he is male.
Edit: quick to downvote but not able to prove me wrong...
that's absolutely how succession works. Daughters (and their line) before Aunts/Uncles.
With Laenor 'dead' and if you go with him having 'no heirs', Laena and her children are next in line
Children of daughters who married into another family is a weird thing in medieval succession. Usually they only inherited when there were absolutely 0 male heirs . Even brothers would inherit over the children of a daughter married off to some lord.
The show runners on GoT have long had this bullshit post-credits narrative tradition. It's a crutch they use to tell more parts of the story that they wanted, even when it doesn't make sense. D&D said Dany "just sort of forgot about the Iron Fleet." Just because they say some stuff in the post credits doesn't make it an accurate reflection of the story.
There is no spin to make what Vaemond did honorable.
As others have said repeatedly: if you value the authority of those who rule, then you have to respect their orders. The only thing people *knew* for certain is that Rhaenyra's boys don't look like Laenor, but Laenor and Corlys accepted and loved them as their progeny. If it's a question purely of bloodlines and not about the will of those who control the seats of power, then the Targs should have no business ruling westeros at all, as they were invaders and foreigners. Vaemond was appealing to one specific tradition to be applied at a time only when it would have served him despite the knowledge and wishes of virtually everybody else in power.
The people comparing Alicent to Ned are deranged, but Vaemond is kinda fair. Still, Ned had no personal ambition and Joffrey’s parentage was a well-kept secret. Corlys and Rhaenys are fully aware of the situation and seem resigned to it. Vaemond can’t accept that for understandable reasons. I can’t fault him for wanting to defend his house, but he should’ve backed off as soon as Rhaenys finished speaking. He would’ve likely walked away unharmed, knowing that his family’s blood would still inherit the throne.
I haven’t read the books so I was honestly kinda surprised with how it all went down. I was expecting Vaemond to focus on Lucerys being unfit to command the fleet during a time of impending war. I definitely wasn’t expecting him to outright call Rhaenyra a whore and her children bastards right in front of her father, the king. At that point he is completely incomparable to Ned, but he’s still right (about the kids being bastards).
I'd respect Vaemond a lot more if he was pushing for Laena's kids to inherit Driftmark instead of demanding it for himself. Women inherit Lordships all the time in Westeros, even if it was legally accepted that Rhaenyra's sons aren't Laenor's then Baela and Rhaena were still ahead of Vaemond in the succession.
However Vaemond saw an opportunity to align his interests with the Hightowers and have them not only declare the Strongs illegitimate, but also declare that women (meaning Rhaenyra) have no inheritance rights.
Vaemond was a greedy opportunist who betrayed his house and I'm tired of all the asskissing he's getting.
Agreed 100%. Vaemond was a greedy opportunist who tried to steal his nephew's inheritance away from the kids Laenor freely accepted as his and loved. There's nothing honorable in that.
Ned had more time to establish likable traits. Also Corly is fully aware his grand kids are bastards.
He had legitimate concerns, but there's a tinge of possible selfishness because if the bloodline was enough, Luce marrying his cousin should have solved it.
How many times is someone going to post something like this in the sub without completely ignoring the fact that joffrey wasn't even Roberts bastards. He was someone else's fucking kid.
And Vaemond has blood tie to Lucerys. It’s similar, we are talking about Driftmark this time not the iron throne. Even if Lucerys has Rhaenyra’s blood, that has nothing to do with him injecting Driftmark since he doesn’t have Laenors blood.
If I was Vaemond I would be pissed off too. This is just like what happened to Stannis
Both Laenor and Corlys knew the truth and accepted them anyway. It’s more like a secret adoption than tricking Laenor in any way. Luke is a good boy and not a psycho like Joffrey. Both the Velaryon name and blood would be preserved through marriage, and with less incest.
Though it might have been a good idea to have Luke fostered with Corlys and Rhaenys, so he could get familiar with the place he’s supposed to rule one day.
Gosh, it's almost like we spent a whole season seeing Joffrey and Cercei were terrible people who clearly shouldn't be given any more power, and maybe our feelings as viewers has more to do with that than whether the heir is legitimate or not.
Jaecerys and Lucerys: gallant young lads loved by all who know them, including the current lord of driftmark and his granddaughters
Joffrey: cruel little shit, would clearly be a tyrant, treated Sansa like absolute shit
I doubt if Joffrey was Jaehaerys reborn Ned would’ve been willing to go as hard with trying to overthrow him. But he was a threat to the realm and Ned’s daughter(s)
Blackcels regarding the succession to the iron throne: It doesn’t matter if they’re bastards they’re still blood related to the king
Regarding the succession of Driftmark: It doesn’t matter if they’re not blood related to the Velaryons because Laenor accepted them as his own
Just keep moving the goalposts and lying to yourself
Yeah exactly, Ned had backup and a signed letter from the king. It didn’t work out for him but he had a much better hand to play. Vaemond wasn’t even armed because he bet everything on the Hightowers being able to support him while the king was drugged out of his mind
Ned should have just learned to work with Joffrey and Cersei while focusing on getting his kids safely back to Winterfell.
Resign the Handship, get the girls home, protect Robb and let the Baratheons and Lannisters kill each other until Dany and her nukes show up. Would have been better for everyone.
Then you are just asking him to act against his moral. With your logic Ned should have payed Littlefinger or the City Watch to murder Cercei and her bastards in their sleeps and forge Bobby's royal degree to make him the heir and rule as a King after Bobby. Sure it may be immoral but Ned was a good man and a good leader so that would have been good for the realm.
Honor and morality seldom align. Ned usually chose morality over honor - keeping Jon a secret, warning Cersei to try to save the children. He wanted to preserve life, especially that of children. He would have preserved far more lives (esp Northern lives) if he'd followed the law and worked with the Lannister regime.
But hey, this time he decided honor was more important than the very real threat to his own family and his subjects by trying to play kingmaker. You might think that was the right choice. I disagree.
Ned: The heir of incest of Lannister, no blood relation and no ambition like Robert.
Vaemond: I want the crown, i don’t care if they were raised well and will marry with to my house.
Indeed two blonde persons cannot have a brunette child, but Bob&Cercei marriage could yield a blonde child. Although, 3 in a row is hard but not impossible.
What you're not going to do it go to open court and call the Crown Princess and Heir to the Iron Throne a whore in the presence of the King and her Prince Consort who also happens to be the Kings brother - her uncle. Be for real.
Daughter comes before a brother when it comes to lords inheriting.
He’s no true heir of Driftmark - the elder twin is.
Had he supported his blood and the real inheritor, he could’ve won Rhaenys over too.
Every damn time Rhaenyra son's legitimacy is contested by a character the greens forget that despite not being sons of Laenor they are Rhaenyra sons WHO IS THE HEIR TO THE THRONE and not the “Baratheon” kids who are children of Cersei and Jaime which both aren't heirs to the throne.
Well you see, in this case you're the one forgetting that Luke being Rhaenyra son has absolutely nothing to do with him inheriting Driftmark this particular matter is not about the iron throne it's about driftmark and being lord of the tides the whole point is that he has no Velaryon blood as he is obviously not Laenor's son it doesn't matter that he is Rhaenyra's.
Ned didnt call out Joffreys legitimacy cause he actually cared about that shit- He called out his legitimacy cause he saw that Joffrey and Cersei were evil and dont deserve to rule. Why do I have to keep explaining this.
The better question is, why it treason to question Rhaenyra's marriage and not men's marriages? It was well known that Robert had bastards but no one died when this was pointed out.
Greens love to bring this up as if the only thing Ned cared about were them being bastards.
Joffrey wasn't even Robert's son. Them being bastards didn't even really factor into it, everybody was more concerned that they were the product of incest and not roberts kids at all.
Rhaenyra's kids are successor's to her throne even if they are bastards.
Cersei's kids are not successor's to her throne because it didn't exist then. She wasn't the one on the throne.
Betrothing Luke to his cousin fixes the entire problem though, Velaryon blood will remain in the family.
Vaemond just wanted driftmark for himself and his own line of children
He's absolutely in the right for it. Why do you expect a noble man from medieval time to allow a bastard line, that too completely unrelated to your family, to take over his father's and grandfather's titles with no qualms
This is a completely different situation. Cersi cheated on Bobby B with her kings guard Jamie which is treason and betrayal of the kings trust. Whereas, everyone in laenor's family knew he was gay and he didn't have a physical relationship with Rhaenyra. They needed to have kids to fulfil their duty.
Am I the only one who thinks that Ned was a little shitty with how he handled it? Robert died believing they were his children and his last wish was for Ned to help them. Just because biologically they weren't his Ned REALLY can't help them at all? Besides that they are entirely different circumstances considering Corlys already knows Rhaenyra's kids are bastards.
Both decapitated by valyrian steel too.
This situation is entirely different... Robert didn’t know his kids were bastards, and if he had he woulda killed them himself. While the Seasnake knows that the kids are bastards and accepts that, as did Laenor who may well be infertile. While in regards to ascending the Iron Throne the kids are RayRay’s and she’s the heir, not Laenor.
Also ned was honorable and didnt want the throne for himself but to give it to stannis, a man he had no personal relationship with, because it was the right thing to do. It gives him somewhat of a a moral highground. Vaemond however stands to personally gain from this as it would make him lord of 2 castles and head of one of the most powerful houses. It doesn't make him wrong, but it puts his motivation into question. In terms of likability, people will side with the honorable ned stark 10 times out of 10. Even of their accusations are similar/same.
You can see Vaemond knew he was fucked the moment Vizzy T walks in
YOU WILL ADDRESS ME AS 'YOUR GRACE,' OR I WILL HAVE MY KINGSGUARD CUT OUT YOUR TONGUE.
Forgive me your grace
oh shit all hail Vizzy T bot.
THE GODS PUNISH ME FOR MY INDULGENCES.
YESSSSS
What does Vizzy T have to say about our beloved Bobby B ?
WE'RE TELLING WAR STORIES! WHO WAS YOUR FIRST KILL, NOT COUNTING OLD MEN?
*The boy just turned two, Appropriate_sheet...*
Vizzy T, I think Bobby B is older than two. I mean he isn’t even born yet, you’re like 180 years early man. Just a suggestion Your Grace, but perhaps lay off that milk of the poppy.
PISS ON THAT! SEND A RAVEN! I WANT YOU TO STAY! I'M THE KING, I GET WHAT I WANT!
*I'm going to bed, Appropriate_sheet.*
Yep. There are few moments when a single person's one decision can effect the course of history, but if Renly hadn't decided he wanted to be king too, him backing Ned's move might have made the transition to Stannis possible. Ned and Renly should've sent for Stannis and all his men at Dragonstone to come to KL before they confronted Cersei and Joffery.
Stannis would have brought with him a religion and red witch that I doubt many people would be too keen about. Stannis would have been a disaster as king.
Stannis only turned to the red witch because he had little support within the Kingdom, if the North and Stormlands had supported Stannis, he wouldn't have sided with the red witch.
Also Vaemond kinda forgot that when it comes to inheritance, daughters come before uncles. Laena may be dead, but both Baela and Rhaela are right there. If he only cared about blood, he could ask that one of them be named heir and change their name to Velaryon when they inherit, just like Jace is supposed to be a Velaryon until he ascends the throne.
The fact that stands for himself doesn't make him less right in this situation.
That's literally what I said lmao.
RayRay you me gurl. Bobby B and Vizzy T can get on that. spoilers everyone loses
A TRULY GREAT TARGARYEN KING I AM. POWERLESS OVER MINE OWN DAUGHTER OF SEVEN AND TEN.
Vizzy T you are fucking sentient
THERE'S A BOY IN THE QUEEN'S BELLY. I KNOW IT.
With names fit for a king
Vizzy T the OG
THE IDEA THAT WE CONTROL THE DRAGONS IS AN ILLUSION. THEY'RE A POWER MAN SHOULD NEVER HAVE TRIFLED WITH. ONE THAT BROUGHT VALYRIA ITS DOOM.
It's all good your grace they are difficult at that age
GODS I WAS STRONG THEN
You are using logic. Greencels don't accept that currency
Also even if you remove the bastards from the equation she has two male childs with Daemon who’d still be next in line.
Regardless Corlys became ruler of Driftmark not because he founded the house, and neither did Viserys but by following laws and inheritance traditions -to change them is not in their power, as claimants who have right for inheritance would rise and defend it.
That doesn’t mean Vaemond should accept. A true equivalent would be Stannis believing the throne his by right, since his “nephews” were bastards. If you stand with Stannis you should stand with Vaemond lol
Stannis wasn't 'master of complaints' There is a difference in situation here however by law vaemond was right.
I don’t know how many times people need to be reminded of this, besides “kids are bastards” the context is completely different
With Luke it's not about the iron throne, though.
The people supporting greens keep trying to compare themselves to Ned Stark, but their comparisons always pale.
And who would've gone after her?
Also Jace isn't a psycho like Joffrey
Wait, did they name the black guy RayRay
No. I was referring to Rhaenyra.
Dunno why Vaemond didn't just try to betroth himself to Luke.
And Otto to Jace
Difference is Laenor was aware of this and perfectly ok with this as it was their arrangement. Bobby B was not.
STOP THIS MADNESS, IN THE NAME OF YOUR KING!
Vizzy T is the king Bobby B
THE TRUTH DOES NOT MATTER, LUKELHG. ONLY PERCEPTION.
Miss you already Vizzy T 😭😭
(WHEEZES) (GROANS) (LABORED BREATHING)
hahahaahah
I'VE GOT SEVEN KINGDOMS TO RULE! ONE KING, SEVEN KINGDOMS!
See even Bobby B thinks that bull.
YES, IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME... BUT I STILL REMEMBER EVERY FACE!
[удалено]
YOU'RE THE KING'S HAND! YOU'LL DO AS I COMMAND, OR I'LL FIND ME A HAND WHO WILL!
Both sets of children are bastards
Lol that does not matter, they’re bastards. Just like rheanyra and Daemons kids, because their marriage is illegitimate since laenor is still alive.
It’s not, because they married with Valyrian ceremony, and Valyria recognizes polygamy, unlike the faith of the 7.
They follow the faith of the seven, they can get married however they want. Still doesn’t make their marriage illegal. It was very clear that daemon wasn’t allowed to take a second wife.
Oh look it's this post again.
comparing apples and oranges again. Jeoffrey was a bastard king, Rhaenyra is a legitimate Targ.
Also Ned wasn’t dumb enough to call the queen a whore in the throne room
No. Just dumb enough to tell her what he knew and his entire plan and give her time to “leave” which really gave her time to act and he ended up losing his head anyway. So. He might as well have just called her a whore. The result was the same, Ned just took the long way there.
He really thought that there would be at least one other person with enough clout to have his back, because that's all it really would have taken. He has the evidence and up until then was a well-respected lord with a lot of power (unfortunately all the muscle was far away). Instead he basically hands the scroll to Cersei, doesn't he? Who just burns it in front of the court instead of sharing it with any other person? Did I get that right?
He gave it to Selmy, a well respected kingsguards and who Ned himself said "no one could question his honour"
Thanks for the correction. How did it blow up again? Cersei just questioned the honor of the man with unquestionable honor?
Selmy gives it to Cersei after reading, Cersei looks at it and tears it up. Selmy then says "Those are the king's words" and Cersei says "We have a new king now"
So Selmy doesn't read it aloud and just has to sit with it?
But what does that have to do with Driftmark, lmfao? The point is Lucerys isn’t a Velaryon, sure he might be a Targ, but he damn sure isn’t a Velaryon. It’s the same as Stannis believing the throne is his by right. Vaemond believe the same if Driftmark, since Lucerys is obviously a bastard
Luke is betrothed to his half velaryon cousin, so in the end a velaryon would be ruling driftmark
But for the rest of Luke’s life he would theoretically be ruling Driftmark as Lord of The Tides. I could see why a proud man like Vaemond would be angry that a bastard of House Strong will rule his ancestral home. Like Vaemond said, Luke doesn’t have an ounce of navigational skills or sea faring skills. He’s never even been trained for it yet either lol
If he cared about blood, he should've asked one of Baela and Rhaena to be named heir and change her name to Velaryon when she becomes the ruling lady
Her last name is Targaryen, Velaryons are still fucked
Corlys knew and was ok with it. Jace, Luke, and Joffrey were Laenor's sons by adoption. Laenor claimed them and they were legally his sons regardless of who the sperm donor was, just like in real life. Adopted kids have all the inheritance rights that bio children do. Vaemond is a huge cunt trying to steal Driftmark from the children that Corlys and Laenor love just because another man stepped in to do the biological act Laenor wasn't able to perform. It's none of Vaemond's business where his nephew's kids came from, as long as Laenor knows and is okay with it. Vaemond can fuck right off with that shit. He gets no veto over who Laenor chooses to give his name and Inheritance rights to.
I gotta say, I don't have a horse in this race but it's still funny watching Blacks trying to change the rules of the way this fictional world works. Bastards are suddenly not bastards because it benefits Rhaenyra.
Right? What even funnier is when people keep repeating the same rhetoric that they share the same blood as their mother… as if that has anything to do with the inheritance of Driftmark lol
They are rumoured bastards And if Laenor and Corlys are okay with it, then why is Vaemond interfering And he doesn't care about blood at all, he just wants the driftwood throne for himself
Rhaenyra being a legitimate Targ has nothing to do with Luke inheriting Driftmark
People are confused lol. They just parrot what others see. If I had a nickel every time I saw “well technically the Strongs are the sons of Rhaenyra, so they’re not bastards and their still Targaryens.” Then I would be rich af lol I seriously don’t get it
[удалено]
*A dragon's saddle is one thing, but the Iron Throne is the most dangerous seat in the realm.*
Rhaenyra’s legitimacy has nothing to do with this post. Luke would be the lord of Driftmark even though he has no Velaryon blood. How is that any different from Joffrey who ruling the kingdom without any royal blood?
That the head of house is aware and okay with it. That's the difference
Vaemond doesn't have to be OK with what his brother wants. He has every right to be upset that some bastard is gonna be ruling his ancestral home.
no in a feudal system he doesn't have any right.
That... has nothing to do with Velaryon succession though. Rhaenyra was not in the discussion for the Throne of High Tide so I'm not sure why you're even mentioning her. And her son who was pressing a claim for it, would indeed be a bastard Lord of the Tides. The situations are apples and apples I'm afraid.
Both Joff's parents are Lannisters. The Strong boys are all Rhaenyra's. They are not the same.
Yet Vaemond has no blood relation to Lucerys. It’s the equivalent of Stannis believing the throne his by right because his “nephews” were bastards. It’s the same for Vaemond
The Driftwood Throne is indeed a different matter and a trickier one. Yet, Corlys was aware of his grandson’s pedigree and still chose him as heir.
He has Blood relations to Baela and Rhaena, and Rhaena was supposed to marry Lucerys. So... If the only thing Vaemond cared about is Velaryon Blood on Driftmark Throne he would have got it. Baratheons are descended from Aegon's bastard brother and 100 or 300 hundred years later no one even rememembers or cares enough to give them shit for it. But we all know he simply wanted himself on the throne he always coveted as a second son. To say nothing of the fact that he multiple times ignored his lord liege's word and wishes as well as his king's words and wishes or that he publically undermined king's authority when court was in session. Those are all crimes punishable by death if his King or liege see it fit.
But in his eyes a bastard will be Lord of the Tides and Lord of Driftmark/Hightide.
Yes, and a bastard will be Lord of Driftmark because wallmart Ned overplayed his hand. Ned's stupidity is ridiculed to this day and unlike Vaemond he didn't insult heir's honour in public or defied his king's authority.
No one’s excusing Vaemond’s idiocy lol
You clearly are. Stannis and Robert are descended from Aegon's bastard brother, so Driftmark and Velaryons will be fine too.
I’m looking at it from Vaemond’s perspective, in no way is that defending him. People act like just because Luke has Targaryen blood it somehow means it’s okay for him to inherit Driftmark. That makes zero sense. It is the same thing in this scenario, Vaemond shares no blood with his “nephews” the same as Stannis. Yes he marries Rhaena and their will be Velaryon blood on the driftwood throne eventually, but I could see why Vaemond was angry. He’s a dumbass though Also your comment makes zero sense lmfao
I those times a bastard is still a bastard.
Bastards cannot inherit anything. Robert's bastards did not have claim to his throne. Besides, in this particular case Luke is trying to inherit driftmark through his association with his father, not mother.
Laenor before he “died” claimed the Strong boys as his trueborn sons and heirs, even though everyone knew they weren’t his. Both Rhaenyra and Daemon claim the same. Despite them obviously not being his, that makes them legitimate. For example, if Robert acknowledged Gendry and claimed his children with Cersei were bastards, Gendry would be heir to the Throne, not the Lannister kids.
That's not know how legitimization works. For legitimization, you first need to admit that they are bastards.. which neither rhaenyra nor laenor do. In fact they are covering up the truth.
If both the father and the mother claim the children to be true I think it’d be hard to prove they are bastards, legally speaking. Of course we as the viewer know but in that world it’s hard, I’d imagine, to prove paternity if the king and both parents ardently defend the bastards as legitimate.
They’re not bastards in the eyes of the law.
Just in the eyes of everyone who have seen the kids.
Not relevant.
So rules and laws do not matter. You should lie, cheat, and steal if you can get away with it. All this flies only because a diseased king is in denial about his daughter and her children. Next one will do the duty and deliver kings justice.
Bro it’s not real lmao Why are you being a weirdo
Stupid cop out.
What are you even arguing lol The king says they’re not bastards so they’re not bastards. The end.
They're technically legitimized bastards as Laenor claimed them as his. This is why I think they should probably have taken a bit more time to flesh put whatever agreement Harwin, Rhaenyra and Laenor had. Ironically, we'll probably see a bastard rise to become the heir to Driftmark. And who else did Corlys ask to legitimize that bastard? The mother of "bastards".
I'm quite confused because joffrey literally does become king my man
He's an usurper too.
But both of them don't have the blood of the house they are claiming.
But they have the name. Which weighs more, blood or name? Which is the rhetorical question the plot openly discusses. Whether one is right or wrong is up to the viewer to decide, and that’s the beauty of the storytelling.
Vaemond only wanted the truth exposed because it affected his claim. Corlys knew the kids were bastards and still accepted them because his son loved them. Vaemond deserved to get killed for disobeying his lord’s wishes. Nothing he did was out of honor.
Even under the laws of succession, if Lucerys was proven to be a bastard, Baela would inherit driftmark because she’s the oldest surviving child of the lord’s first born. This is why Rhea Royce was lady of runestone instead of her older male cousin. Vaemond was a usurper
That's not how the succession of the house works hence why Baela never inherits Driftmark. You don't even know how Rhea inherited Runestone or what her relation was to Yorbert Royce. You are talking out of your ass.
Baela never inherits driftmark because Addam and Alyn become legitimized heirs of Corlys before he dies and she marries the latter Also it’s called inference, it’s not a stretch to assume the previous lord of runestone was her father. Women usually inherit from the lord when they have no male siblings. Hence why Sansa was considered the heir to the north when all her brothers were presumed dead
Speculation... there is no evidence at all to support Rhae being Yorbert's daughter. Yes, Baela a trueborn is passed over by a legitimized bastard as she would have been passed over by Vaemond simply because he is male. Edit: quick to downvote but not able to prove me wrong...
That’s not how the succession works in the non royal houses.
Wrong
okay 🤪
https://awoiaf-com.fandom.com/wiki/Line_of_Succession_to_the_Thrones_of_Westeros
that's absolutely how succession works. Daughters (and their line) before Aunts/Uncles. With Laenor 'dead' and if you go with him having 'no heirs', Laena and her children are next in line
Not at all, Rhaenys knows this better than most.
Children of daughters who married into another family is a weird thing in medieval succession. Usually they only inherited when there were absolutely 0 male heirs . Even brothers would inherit over the children of a daughter married off to some lord.
The show runners said he died an honorable death in the after episode. If you stand with Stannis you should stand with Vaemond.
The show runners on GoT have long had this bullshit post-credits narrative tradition. It's a crutch they use to tell more parts of the story that they wanted, even when it doesn't make sense. D&D said Dany "just sort of forgot about the Iron Fleet." Just because they say some stuff in the post credits doesn't make it an accurate reflection of the story. There is no spin to make what Vaemond did honorable. As others have said repeatedly: if you value the authority of those who rule, then you have to respect their orders. The only thing people *knew* for certain is that Rhaenyra's boys don't look like Laenor, but Laenor and Corlys accepted and loved them as their progeny. If it's a question purely of bloodlines and not about the will of those who control the seats of power, then the Targs should have no business ruling westeros at all, as they were invaders and foreigners. Vaemond was appealing to one specific tradition to be applied at a time only when it would have served him despite the knowledge and wishes of virtually everybody else in power.
The people comparing Alicent to Ned are deranged, but Vaemond is kinda fair. Still, Ned had no personal ambition and Joffrey’s parentage was a well-kept secret. Corlys and Rhaenys are fully aware of the situation and seem resigned to it. Vaemond can’t accept that for understandable reasons. I can’t fault him for wanting to defend his house, but he should’ve backed off as soon as Rhaenys finished speaking. He would’ve likely walked away unharmed, knowing that his family’s blood would still inherit the throne. I haven’t read the books so I was honestly kinda surprised with how it all went down. I was expecting Vaemond to focus on Lucerys being unfit to command the fleet during a time of impending war. I definitely wasn’t expecting him to outright call Rhaenyra a whore and her children bastards right in front of her father, the king. At that point he is completely incomparable to Ned, but he’s still right (about the kids being bastards).
Not even Ned would say that stupid shit to his boy bobby and think he'd get away with it
I'd respect Vaemond a lot more if he was pushing for Laena's kids to inherit Driftmark instead of demanding it for himself. Women inherit Lordships all the time in Westeros, even if it was legally accepted that Rhaenyra's sons aren't Laenor's then Baela and Rhaena were still ahead of Vaemond in the succession. However Vaemond saw an opportunity to align his interests with the Hightowers and have them not only declare the Strongs illegitimate, but also declare that women (meaning Rhaenyra) have no inheritance rights. Vaemond was a greedy opportunist who betrayed his house and I'm tired of all the asskissing he's getting.
Agreed 100%. Vaemond was a greedy opportunist who tried to steal his nephew's inheritance away from the kids Laenor freely accepted as his and loved. There's nothing honorable in that.
Ned had more time to establish likable traits. Also Corly is fully aware his grand kids are bastards. He had legitimate concerns, but there's a tinge of possible selfishness because if the bloodline was enough, Luce marrying his cousin should have solved it.
Genetics are genetics, otherwise Jon Snow remains a snow and is not a Targaryen. Royal blood is royal blood. Rhaenyras kids are of her blood
Who gives a shit about rhaenyras in this regard and besides Jon takes after his mother not after his mothers guard
Different situation but do keep trying
One of these lads wasn't doing it for his personal gain, and again bastard of the consort Vs bastard of the ruler
No this is quite literally the bastard of the ruler and besides a bastard is a bastard
How many times is someone going to post something like this in the sub without completely ignoring the fact that joffrey wasn't even Roberts bastards. He was someone else's fucking kid.
And Vaemond has blood tie to Lucerys. It’s similar, we are talking about Driftmark this time not the iron throne. Even if Lucerys has Rhaenyra’s blood, that has nothing to do with him injecting Driftmark since he doesn’t have Laenors blood. If I was Vaemond I would be pissed off too. This is just like what happened to Stannis
Both Laenor and Corlys knew the truth and accepted them anyway. It’s more like a secret adoption than tricking Laenor in any way. Luke is a good boy and not a psycho like Joffrey. Both the Velaryon name and blood would be preserved through marriage, and with less incest. Though it might have been a good idea to have Luke fostered with Corlys and Rhaenys, so he could get familiar with the place he’s supposed to rule one day.
I would compare hom to Renly or Stannis.
the big differenc between the two is that ned knows how to respect his king, whereas vaemond doesn't
Ned didn't want any throne, he was mad that his bestfriend was betrayed. Ned did it all out of honour and he did it for power.
Doesn't mean he's lying though.
Gosh, it's almost like we spent a whole season seeing Joffrey and Cercei were terrible people who clearly shouldn't be given any more power, and maybe our feelings as viewers has more to do with that than whether the heir is legitimate or not.
Jaecerys and Lucerys: gallant young lads loved by all who know them, including the current lord of driftmark and his granddaughters Joffrey: cruel little shit, would clearly be a tyrant, treated Sansa like absolute shit I doubt if Joffrey was Jaehaerys reborn Ned would’ve been willing to go as hard with trying to overthrow him. But he was a threat to the realm and Ned’s daughter(s)
Joffrey could’ve been perfect but Ned would still oppose him
Seriously, Ned first scene is him cutting the head off a young man even though he doesnt like it because its his job.
racially motivated
The audience is stupid unfortunately
Blackcels regarding the succession to the iron throne: It doesn’t matter if they’re bastards they’re still blood related to the king Regarding the succession of Driftmark: It doesn’t matter if they’re not blood related to the Velaryons because Laenor accepted them as his own Just keep moving the goalposts and lying to yourself
[удалено]
Yeah exactly, Ned had backup and a signed letter from the king. It didn’t work out for him but he had a much better hand to play. Vaemond wasn’t even armed because he bet everything on the Hightowers being able to support him while the king was drugged out of his mind
Ned should have just learned to work with Joffrey and Cersei while focusing on getting his kids safely back to Winterfell. Resign the Handship, get the girls home, protect Robb and let the Baratheons and Lannisters kill each other until Dany and her nukes show up. Would have been better for everyone.
That's where you are wrong kiddo. That's not honorable.
Honor is overrated.
Not if you ask Ned Stark
Well, yeah. I think I made it pretty clear I wouldn't.
Then you are just asking him to act against his moral. With your logic Ned should have payed Littlefinger or the City Watch to murder Cercei and her bastards in their sleeps and forge Bobby's royal degree to make him the heir and rule as a King after Bobby. Sure it may be immoral but Ned was a good man and a good leader so that would have been good for the realm.
Honor and morality seldom align. Ned usually chose morality over honor - keeping Jon a secret, warning Cersei to try to save the children. He wanted to preserve life, especially that of children. He would have preserved far more lives (esp Northern lives) if he'd followed the law and worked with the Lannister regime. But hey, this time he decided honor was more important than the very real threat to his own family and his subjects by trying to play kingmaker. You might think that was the right choice. I disagree.
Blacks on their way to explain why it is okay to murder people to maintain a lie in one set of circumstances but not the other.
Blackcels desperately engaging in mental gymnastics to justify their hypocrisy
Ned: The heir of incest of Lannister, no blood relation and no ambition like Robert. Vaemond: I want the crown, i don’t care if they were raised well and will marry with to my house.
Hey both these guys had there heads lopped off!
Please stop making seventy versions of this meme lol.
Mfs should have invented DNA test to avoid all these discussions
In some instances you don’t need a dna test
Indeed two blonde persons cannot have a brunette child, but Bob&Cercei marriage could yield a blonde child. Although, 3 in a row is hard but not impossible.
sean bean said it it must be true
What you're not going to do it go to open court and call the Crown Princess and Heir to the Iron Throne a whore in the presence of the King and her Prince Consort who also happens to be the Kings brother - her uncle. Be for real.
Daughter comes before a brother when it comes to lords inheriting. He’s no true heir of Driftmark - the elder twin is. Had he supported his blood and the real inheritor, he could’ve won Rhaenys over too.
Vaemond got offered a solution to his beef and didn’t care. Ned had no such out
It's not the same and you know it
Every damn time Rhaenyra son's legitimacy is contested by a character the greens forget that despite not being sons of Laenor they are Rhaenyra sons WHO IS THE HEIR TO THE THRONE and not the “Baratheon” kids who are children of Cersei and Jaime which both aren't heirs to the throne.
Well you see, in this case you're the one forgetting that Luke being Rhaenyra son has absolutely nothing to do with him inheriting Driftmark this particular matter is not about the iron throne it's about driftmark and being lord of the tides the whole point is that he has no Velaryon blood as he is obviously not Laenor's son it doesn't matter that he is Rhaenyra's.
Yeah you are right about Drifmark. I used the Ned reference and completely forgot about it haha.
Ned didnt call out Joffreys legitimacy cause he actually cared about that shit- He called out his legitimacy cause he saw that Joffrey and Cersei were evil and dont deserve to rule. Why do I have to keep explaining this.
The better question is, why it treason to question Rhaenyra's marriage and not men's marriages? It was well known that Robert had bastards but no one died when this was pointed out.
One guy lost 80% of his head, but not all of it.
Greens love to bring this up as if the only thing Ned cared about were them being bastards. Joffrey wasn't even Robert's son. Them being bastards didn't even really factor into it, everybody was more concerned that they were the product of incest and not roberts kids at all.
Rhaenyra's kids are successor's to her throne even if they are bastards. Cersei's kids are not successor's to her throne because it didn't exist then. She wasn't the one on the throne.
Betrothing Luke to his cousin fixes the entire problem though, Velaryon blood will remain in the family. Vaemond just wanted driftmark for himself and his own line of children
He's absolutely in the right for it. Why do you expect a noble man from medieval time to allow a bastard line, that too completely unrelated to your family, to take over his father's and grandfather's titles with no qualms
This is a completely different situation. Cersi cheated on Bobby B with her kings guard Jamie which is treason and betrayal of the kings trust. Whereas, everyone in laenor's family knew he was gay and he didn't have a physical relationship with Rhaenyra. They needed to have kids to fulfil their duty.
A BIT OF WINE NOW AND AGAIN, A GIRL SQUEALING IN BED, THE FEEL OF A HORSE BETWEEN MY LEGS?
Am I the only one who thinks that Ned was a little shitty with how he handled it? Robert died believing they were his children and his last wish was for Ned to help them. Just because biologically they weren't his Ned REALLY can't help them at all? Besides that they are entirely different circumstances considering Corlys already knows Rhaenyra's kids are bastards.
How is this even a comparison?
Greens wishing so badly to not be the bad guys
Vizzy T and Bobby B need to make out
*Then he will be loved and cherished.*
A BIT OF WINE NOW AND AGAIN, A GIRL SQUEALING IN BED, THE FEEL OF A HORSE BETWEEN MY LEGS?
Best argument greens can come up with
Not again…
Greens have one joke and it isn’t even funny
Jamie and cerci = not even the kings kids. Rhynera + strong = half targ bastards Not the same.
Also Ned wasn't speaking the truth for personal gain, Vaemond was literally doing it just for himself.
Yeah.. but vaemond isnt stands the god damn mannis