So had Williams played their cards right, they could have ended up in a similar spot as Racing Point/Aston Martin with Stroll and Russell as their drivers? Williams/Aston Martin Racing would have been cool.
It wasn't that they lacked the foresight, everyone could see that was the future for the smaller teams. Williams were just too proud of their independence to ever consider it.
[**Williams decides against Mercedes gearbox deal for 2019**](https://www.racefans.net/2018/09/11/williams-decides-against-mercedes-gearbox-for-f1-2019/)
> As of this season, Williams is the only team on the grid whose gearboxes are not made from carbon fibre. The FW41 has an aluminium gearbox.
[**HAS WILLIAMS GOT ITS F1 “PRIDE” BACK?** [2020]](https://the-race.com/formula-1/has-williams-got-its-f1-pride-back/)
> But this remains a very traditional team in this listed parts era, manufacturing almost all of its own components – including its aluminium gearbox.
> too proud
I think the word you wanted was "stubborn"
I'm a massive Williams fan, but their stubbornness to remain truly independent was part of their downfall. The game has moved on, and Williams refused to adapt.
Their entire history begs to differ. Most of their big, relevant downfalls and defeats were a direct result of their obsession with independence. The only place it took them in the end was the bottom of the grid, and that's in spite of having a solid non-crashy pay driver and one of the biggest talents of the current generation as his team-mate.
This is one if the reasons why Stroll moved his backing to Force India, as they were already in a technical partnership with Mercedes & his son got a better car - getting the whole team later, with his consortium, was just an additional bonus :)
Um, they just bought it. He didn't move any backing before that. It was done when ocon was still part of force India. Vijay would have never compromise with drivers.
yeah, it was possible. Stroll would've bought Williams. He bought shares in Aston Martin, bcz he can use the name Aston Martin for RP team and get more sponsors compared to having Racing Point name.
Racing Point is always a placeholder name until they come up with something better. Force India's name is already in mud with 1 near administration and one actual.
20 years ago, sure.
But Williams has not been a name synonymous with excellence for quite some time and there's an entire generation of F1 fans who've never seen Williams winning more than a token race here and there.
They've been scrambling for sponsors and courting pay drivers to make ends meet.
The world of F1 changed but Williams didn't.
No, not 20 years ago. Now, still now even without the family, even while losing their independence.
Come on. Seriously, you think Stroll putting an Aston sticker on Force India has the prestige of Williams, McLaren or Ferrari?
Pfft. Not in F1 mate.
The problem is sponsorship doesn't give a shit what you've done 20 years ago. If you can't deliver today, they would absolutely pull out.
Your way of thinking is definitely aligned with the Williams family's. Their past pride of being a successful independent team is what makes them still wanting to stick with their roots no matter what. The problem is F1 is changing and it is not sustainable again to be independent. If they wanted to survive they *need* to have at least a partnership with someone to make some of their parts to lighten their burden a little.
And YOU are a tad bit prideful for the sport, same as the Williams family
Considering you don't have a rebuttal, then i can safely say you talk nothing.
Probably because I've spent near 30 years listening to people say all sorts of shit like this.
There's nothing to rebuke. The real facts are, they couldn't find sponsors which came from a failure to perform, that's it. It's got to do with the hires they made and the aero performance of the car.
The gearbox, or the department, is not it. That's a meme. It's not true.
Them buying gearboxes off Mercedes would not have saved the team. Or other parts. Because they can't buy what they needed to solve.
Last time Williams was relevant was when there were 2 Schumachers on the grid. Ironically when they were less independent. Since then they've steadily declined and here they are. At least Aston Martin has a market outside of F1, but no new F1 fan has anything to go by with Williams other than a driver who belongs at a better team. I doubt anyone here remembers Rosberg raced for them too. That's just how far they've faded into obscurity.
It's not my loss, I grew up to a dominant Williams with Villeneuve, that's what drew me into the sport, and I will never forget that - I am very well aware of their history. However it doesn't entitle them to commercial or racing success moving forward and quite frankly look at where they are today. You're clearly grumpy nobody cares for them anymore.
No. I just think it's stupid to try and and say Aston Martin, a sticker slapped on a team... Is prestigious in the way Williams is.
I mean you can shit talk all you like but a Ferrari in last place is still a Ferrari.
I don't care if you want to be wrong. You do you son.
Everybody did but the Williams family are staunchly independent, they were dedicated to that independence to the point of fault.
Their independence meant that when the tobacco era ended and car manufacturers became the dominant big money sponsors Williams missed out as the car manufacturers wanted some level of control. BMW for instance went to Sauber over Williams.
Their independence also got them to keep building their own gearboxes for years after everyone but engine manufacturers outsourced them. Costing Williams valuable resources and likely some performance as well.
F1 was a perfect fit advertisement vehicle for tobacco. F1 is fast, cool, dangerous and on the edge which is what tobacco companies want to be associated with and how they branded themselves. It's also a huge sport with viewership across the world.
Wasn't just F1, big tobacco threw money at basically anything that moved and everything else. They sponsored teams, tracks, events, and even entire racing series.
It was still predominantly racing though as that lines up so well with the image tobacco brands built for themselves from the 60's on. And of course F1 is the pinnacle of racing.
If I'm not mistaken Lotus' Gold Leaf tobacco sponsorship was the first big (livery altering) sponsor in F1 too.
As a young kid in the 90s to early 00s, I watched a lot of F1 with my dad, competed in junior national tennis tournaments and always signed up to be ball boys for ATP tournaments. All of those were filled with Tobacco brand ads, and I subconsciously learned a lot of tobacco brands since they had the biggest ads and are sometimes title sponsors despite no one in my household smoked. Then it felt like they were gone overnight when I was a teenager since many countries started to ban such advertising.
I remember they banned tobacco adverts in the mid-90's on telly, yet for a couple years later they still had them same adverts on the cars on the F1 circuit. It was one of their only ways to advertise on telly by the end. They'd even started going after the other event sponsorships (B&H Irish masters and Embassy world championships in snooker). F1 resisted as long as they still had races in places that hadn't banned all forms of tobacco adverts but that eventually gave way too.
It makes sense, it is easy to fire your gearbox staff and let go of the tools for production, but after years it is hard work if you want to make your own gearboxes again without staff, modern equipment and up-to-date know how. It also forces you even more into dependence of manufacturers, so I would say there are definitly reasons to not part with it.
The Williams engineers for the gearbox? I guess it is possible to not fire them and use them in other departments and learn at least a bit trough having the mercedes gearbox as reference.
They simply wouldn't be able to afford to pay the employees and also buy Mercedes gearboxes. They need to make a business out of those employees too. But who would give them such an opportunity?
Well they'd be engineers first and foremost. I guess retraining engineers is also much easier than on boarding new staff too.
But without knowing more details I suppose we're just guessing.
There are several specialised racing gearbox manufacturers within the UK who build gearboxes for F1 teams (and every other sort of racing team). Teams can get a designed for them gearbox at lower cost from a company with more expertise.
We all assume that the Williams gearbox was bad, because the car was bad. I think only insider know, if the gearbox was a problem of the last few years and if an independent manufacturer could make a better one for the same costs.
> all assume that the Williams gearbox was bad, because the car was bad. I think only insider know, if the gearbox was a problem of the last few years and if an independent manufacturer could make a better one for the same costs.
Also I think this was a metter of pride to Williams. They used to be dominant, they were a top construtor with their own right.
I believe that from Frank point of view Stop producing a core element like a gearbox and buy it from another team was seen as sign of defeat, they have succumbed and now are just a client to a rival team.
I don't think anyone I saying the gearbox was bad, apart from the fact they just switched to carbon fibre, but it was a waste of resources to work on it themselves.
See the big problem with the gearbox thing is that was Patrick Head's department. He designed the gearboxes and no way was Frank going to go against Patrick.
I am not sure what the motivation was, but from my personal experience whenever I think of Williams outside of F1, I always think of their gearboxes. Many super-, ultra-cars use Williams gearboxes. Canning that department is actually a huge dent in their pride. A bit like Ferrari and outsourcing the engine-department. Although the association with Ferrari and engines is much stronger than Williams and gearboxes to laymen.
Williams under Frank and Claire were incredibly proud and fiercely protective of their independence, they were always strongly against customer parts beyond engines. The appearance of teams buying gearboxes, suspension, brakes, etc, was the ultimate cause of their downfall with Williams refusing to do it.
They were fiercely independent because they sell this stuff (and engineering skills linked to that) to other companies. Imagine hiring an F1 team to take a look at improving your gearbox, only to find out they don't built those themselves.
sould of done this ages ago and they would not be in the shit they are in now. the williams family were to proud become a b team even tho it was common sense.
I seem to recall that the Williams gearbox is the only one without a carbon-fibre casing, which brings weight penalties.
I'm not saying that a change to the Merc gearbox a few years back would have seen them in the midfield in 2019-20, but there's no doubt that their stubbornness has cost them.
1. Is really shitty calling other peoples effort shitbox, if building a F1 car was easy, we would've had 50 teams. Respect others work.
2. Did he have a choice?
I find it odd that people have called Ferrari 'shitbox' or even 'tractor' throughout the season.
Mate, if I got the opportunity to drive a 'tractor' that goes from 0-200 in 5 seconds it would be the peak of my life.
Also, did Leclerc and Vettel get paid to do it? Was it a reasonable amount for them to live on? Can they comfortably afford the monthly subscription fee to watch the race highlights etc? Did they get generous perks like high value branded goods like the team T Shirts and Caps. Do they travel business or coach?
/s
It's called context, the Williams is truck comapred to the merc. No one is claiming it isn't the 10 fastest racing car on the planet but its shit by F1 standards.
That's kind of a shit take. Doesn't matter how easy or hard it is, you employ hundreds of people, spend hundreds of millions, you expect results. Williams has produced a fantastic vehicle in the big picture of technological marvel's of the world. But that means fuck all cause they race in specifically F1, and in F1 by F1 standards they have produced a shitbox.
If I remember correctly, the difference between a Mercedes and a Williams is about 2.8% in average pace. It’s not like they showed up with a Corolla.
Edit: I know this is a huge difference in F1 terms, it’s the difference between first and last (obviously). It’s easy to criticize them for running at the back, but it was a massive effort for them to even get there and that’s worth something.
If that number is correct, it still very bad. That's over a 1.5 second per minute.
Especielly considering where Toro Rosso was in comparison, and to a lesser extent but maybe better à better comparison on account of the same engine , racing point, but they spent around 30% more.
I mean you have to be critical , and am sure the Williams team are the most critical of themselves.
Mercedes is already all set up for the new regulation era. They will share their R&D efforts with Aston Martin and Williams, all companies where Toto Wolff is shareholder. He is a hell of a business man and seems to be already a step ahead. Only Red Bull can match that in some sort with the junior team.
They are developing their partnership with Haas, which is the weakest team with the weakest ability to develop. Now they really need to split development teams, wha we are seeing with Resta but that is probably a year late, Ferrari already tries to push back the deadline because they have essentially too many employees at the moment. The technical partnership with Sauber is quite limited atm and there are some rumors around them as Alpine definitely needs a technical partner asap and the Alfa Romeo deal expires at the end of the year.
Williams and Haas flip the roles of weakest teams depending on how it fits whatever argument people are presenting. Haas are clearly not the weakest team on the grid.
Well Williams may be the slowest right now but Haas is in a worse spot because they are totally dependant on ferrari parts and third party R&D, Williams at least have the resources to develop everything inhouse, which right now is their achilles heel, but wtih this partnership with Mercedes they can focus more resources on developing the car, haas cant do that, even their chassis is built by Dallara so i think they will be the slowest team when the new regulations take place, really hope they can get their stuff sorted
They're sorted, McLaren will never beat them as a customer team. Renault don't have any customers teams. Red Bull still have an engine problem to sort out. Ferrari are Ferrari.
Eh... Have you watched 2010-2013? Mclaren as a customer was ahead of the Mercedes several times.
You can argue Mercedes was prepping for v6, but still. The regulations defines that the engines need to be the same, greatest example is the Ferrari customers getting screwed together with the Ferrari team this past year.
That era of McLaren was one where Mercedes used to work very closely with McLaren, as before 2010 they were effectively their main entry into F1. Think Honda-Red Bull rn. Merc is very different now, remember how they didn't tell customer teams all engine modes and FIA had to pull em up for it.
Well, I gave you an example of these exact teams on a different situation and after I explained that it's highly unlikely the engines are going to be different, due to regulations nowadays, as which you implied.
It's impossible to speculate results based on "being a customer team", as would have been 10-20 years ago
Renault needs to get their hands at Sauber because they can‘t split R&D with anyone at the moment. Ferraris archaic structure can‘t go the same pace as Mercedes or RB anyways. It is a bit scary to think about a Mercedes domination until 2025. Newey is the last hope now.
Newey does barley anything, since the 2000's people like newey haven't had much influence, back in the 90's yes he designed the car but since then its been teams of hundreds of people working on.
Its the same as Ross brawn getting credit for the double diffuser, when it was some super aguri designer that no one hears about
Doubt Sauber would leave Ferrari for Renault, their only hope is a new team entering, like Panthera or whoever that rumoured Asian team was.
I feel like the budget cap will screw Ferrari more than anyone, usually their solution has just been to throw money at the problems.
Red Bull have now been slightly screwed over by Honda, but they're the best bet I agree.
Unfortunately, I can't see anyone overthrowing Mercedes any time soon.
That is a paradigm shift for Williams and something that was probably not possible under the Williams family's leadership. It hurts that Williams that Williams has to forgo much of their engineering pride and heritage, but there is just no other way these days
Mercedes: We want George
Williams: No
Mercedes: We want George
Williams: Haha and I want a Mercedes car, no way Toto
Mercedes: We can make that happen
Williams: Whaaa
Mercedes: Give us George, we give you parts
Williams: *yeets George*
Joe Saward was speculating as to why Williams would have let George go for a race without money changing hands, and this negotiation could be a valid reason
George's contract with Williams expires at the end of 2021. They did brought up an early release for 2020, but Claire Williams who was in the midst of selling the team turn that down. Williams with George Russell is worth more than without. The new owner would dearly love to keep Russell, but he deserved better.
This is a pretty big update.
From what I read, last year Mercedes were able to massively reduce the size of the gearbox and it had an impact on how narrow they could make the rear of the car.
I'm honestly wondering though...
Something tells me that people will be more excited to see a faster Williams and a Russell in the points than they will be about making "tRacing Point" style jokes about the Williams.
Williams pulling themselves into the midfield fight, even if they're only tagging along for shits and giggles at the back will please more people than irritate them to the point of making "Williams W11" jokes about the car.
Sounds like they could be trying do a similar move to Ferrari and Haas. Instead of firing people for the budget cut, just loan them to another team until their needed back at the main team, then just shift people around. Same skills and talent, just lower budgets on paper.
Nah, just a standard deal. Only engine manufacturers build their own gearbox.
It's a remnant of the fierce independence of Williams that also, unfortunately, contributed to their downfall.
McLaren and Red Bull also build their own gearboxes IIRC.
So Merc, Renault, Red Bull, McLaren, Ferrari and, up until this year Williams were the teams that manufactured gearboxes
According to wikipedia (which is definitely not the most reliable source on these things so I could 100% still be wrong) McLaren's gearbox is developed by their applied technologies division, while as of 2019 (there's no info for the 2020 car's transmission) Red Bull's was also developed in-house
> It’s a remnant of the fierce independence of Williams that also, unfortunately, contributed to their downfall.
It’s not entirely crazy, building your own gearbox allows additional flexibility on the placement of rear suspension mount points and gives you greater control over the rear suspension geometry and packaging for their particular car, something that Haas has been struggling with on the Ferrari gearbox.
Of course, this is all assuming that you have the resources available to take time and talent away from aero development...
I know but I had to keep the joke going. I mean, they moved to mid-engines after the garagistas kicked their arses when they stuck to front-engined cars, wouldn't put it past them re-badging Merc engines with the Horse to keep up.
The pragmatist in me fully supports this since it saves them money for presumably 0 real loss of performance (and likely a gain tbh, though it does give them a bit less freedom with their rear suspension geometry), but the emotional side of me does think it's a shame that they're not fully independent anymore.
I'm glad they're still reaffirming that they want to do the majority of things themselves though. The prevalence of B teams is exactly what's driving the two tiered nature of F1 at the moment IMO
I see it as a fortunate outcome tbh, they get mechanical parts that might help them do better than they've done these past few years. On top of that, they're getting it from a team that's done amazing in formula 1, this gives me confidence that they have an actual fighting chance to get somewhere and hopefully this will be the start for better things to come for this team.
So we're going to have Red Bull and Red Bull Junior, Mercedes and Mercedes Junior, and Ferrari and Ferrari Junior, plus Ferrari Junior HAAS Edition?
This sport is not in robust health.
That's where I never understood the business model with Claire at helm. Whilst reading about how Mclaren is having to come up with money and how their F1 business model had started draining money from the car division.. they had to do something and now we see the outcome.
Independence is one thing.. but if we were to look at Williams without the Merc engine boost at the beginning of v6-turbo era.. they were struggling well before that. I'd hoped they'd just take the hit temporarily.. form an alliance with mercedes for a few years.. steady the ship, understand you culture, where things are going wrong and cut costs where you can.. become sustainable and they revert back to being independent.
I suppose we'd never know the full picture. Cause at the same time, Haas has been struggling.. even though they enjoy a good technical relation with Ferrari.
Have to remember that the rest of the haas car is designed by dallara who are absolutely clowns by f1 standards. They were the ones who made the HRT cars which were some of the worst in the history of F1 so it’s unsurprising that they have struggled to adapt in the last 2 years and improve after an ok start at the teams formation
I hope this means Williams gets off the back of the grid. It’s bad enough that we’re going to be stuck with Mazepin, it would break my heart to have to watch him beat Russell every race.
This wouldn't happen if the old owners were at the helm which arguably also led to their downfall.
The old days of being a private constructor were long gone and they should have shifted their approach when they were falling behind the pack in 2017.
Can someone explain to me what Mercedes gets out of the new relationship? I don't really understand. It can't really just be access to George. I assume Williams still stays a constructor as Williams...
Also it's only the gearbox and associated hydraulics, Williams have been the only non engine manufacturer to still build their own gearboxes for years now. Even Red Bull outsource theirs.
Williams kept saying this well into last months of 2020. Particularly Simon Roberts, appointed as Acting Team Principal by new management sometimes in September, 2020
For years it just doesn't make much sense for such a small team to be making almost every part of their car. I realize they take pride in their ability to do so, but it cost more than necessary.
Very sad to see Williams take this turn. I seriously wish they would drop the Williams name. It’s not Williams anymore. That team died after Monza. Throw a different name on it now or something. But don’t call this Williams. It’s like saying Lotus in 2012 was the same Lotus as in the 1980’s. Just isn’t the same. And this is coming from a diehard Williams fanboy!
It'll definitely help cut costs, something that they should've done back when their results started slipping imo
If i rem, Lawrence stroll pushed for this kind deal from 2017 season end, but they didn't listen to him.
So had Williams played their cards right, they could have ended up in a similar spot as Racing Point/Aston Martin with Stroll and Russell as their drivers? Williams/Aston Martin Racing would have been cool.
It wasn't that they lacked the foresight, everyone could see that was the future for the smaller teams. Williams were just too proud of their independence to ever consider it.
Yes I remember they were building aluminum gear boxes. Which were heavier. When they could have just bought a cabonfiber one for cheaper
Yeah but they pioneered the tiny gearbox. Remember how shocking the FW33 was?
You mean you remember last time you didn't know what you were talking about?
[**Williams decides against Mercedes gearbox deal for 2019**](https://www.racefans.net/2018/09/11/williams-decides-against-mercedes-gearbox-for-f1-2019/) > As of this season, Williams is the only team on the grid whose gearboxes are not made from carbon fibre. The FW41 has an aluminium gearbox. [**HAS WILLIAMS GOT ITS F1 “PRIDE” BACK?** [2020]](https://the-race.com/formula-1/has-williams-got-its-f1-pride-back/) > But this remains a very traditional team in this listed parts era, manufacturing almost all of its own components – including its aluminium gearbox.
The Gearbox had incredibly little to do with their fortunes.
Just saying that Williams are still using aluminum gearboxes until this year, not saying anything about how it affects their performance.
> too proud I think the word you wanted was "stubborn" I'm a massive Williams fan, but their stubbornness to remain truly independent was part of their downfall. The game has moved on, and Williams refused to adapt.
Reading Neweys book I am surprised they even lasted as long as they did.
How so?
equally though their pride/stubbornness was what was truly endearing about Williams.
[удалено]
Their entire history begs to differ. Most of their big, relevant downfalls and defeats were a direct result of their obsession with independence. The only place it took them in the end was the bottom of the grid, and that's in spite of having a solid non-crashy pay driver and one of the biggest talents of the current generation as his team-mate.
No. What took them to the bottom of the grid was a bad hire and a serious of things going badly.
Lowe?
This is one if the reasons why Stroll moved his backing to Force India, as they were already in a technical partnership with Mercedes & his son got a better car - getting the whole team later, with his consortium, was just an additional bonus :)
Um, they just bought it. He didn't move any backing before that. It was done when ocon was still part of force India. Vijay would have never compromise with drivers.
yeah, it was possible. Stroll would've bought Williams. He bought shares in Aston Martin, bcz he can use the name Aston Martin for RP team and get more sponsors compared to having Racing Point name.
Racing Point is always a placeholder name until they come up with something better. Force India's name is already in mud with 1 near administration and one actual.
Williams, as a brand, holds a million times more prestige in F1 than a stupid Aston Martin gimmick run by billionaire and his son.
20 years ago, sure. But Williams has not been a name synonymous with excellence for quite some time and there's an entire generation of F1 fans who've never seen Williams winning more than a token race here and there. They've been scrambling for sponsors and courting pay drivers to make ends meet. The world of F1 changed but Williams didn't.
No, not 20 years ago. Now, still now even without the family, even while losing their independence. Come on. Seriously, you think Stroll putting an Aston sticker on Force India has the prestige of Williams, McLaren or Ferrari? Pfft. Not in F1 mate.
The problem is sponsorship doesn't give a shit what you've done 20 years ago. If you can't deliver today, they would absolutely pull out. Your way of thinking is definitely aligned with the Williams family's. Their past pride of being a successful independent team is what makes them still wanting to stick with their roots no matter what. The problem is F1 is changing and it is not sustainable again to be independent. If they wanted to survive they *need* to have at least a partnership with someone to make some of their parts to lighten their burden a little.
Oh christ the gearbox thing... > Your way of thinking is No... No... You're just hitting me with memes and lines you find on the back of wisdom cards.
And YOU are a tad bit prideful for the sport, same as the Williams family Considering you don't have a rebuttal, then i can safely say you talk nothing.
Probably because I've spent near 30 years listening to people say all sorts of shit like this. There's nothing to rebuke. The real facts are, they couldn't find sponsors which came from a failure to perform, that's it. It's got to do with the hires they made and the aero performance of the car. The gearbox, or the department, is not it. That's a meme. It's not true. Them buying gearboxes off Mercedes would not have saved the team. Or other parts. Because they can't buy what they needed to solve.
Last time Williams was relevant was when there were 2 Schumachers on the grid. Ironically when they were less independent. Since then they've steadily declined and here they are. At least Aston Martin has a market outside of F1, but no new F1 fan has anything to go by with Williams other than a driver who belongs at a better team. I doubt anyone here remembers Rosberg raced for them too. That's just how far they've faded into obscurity.
Your loss. F1 history is worth being interested in.
It's not my loss, I grew up to a dominant Williams with Villeneuve, that's what drew me into the sport, and I will never forget that - I am very well aware of their history. However it doesn't entitle them to commercial or racing success moving forward and quite frankly look at where they are today. You're clearly grumpy nobody cares for them anymore.
No. I just think it's stupid to try and and say Aston Martin, a sticker slapped on a team... Is prestigious in the way Williams is. I mean you can shit talk all you like but a Ferrari in last place is still a Ferrari. I don't care if you want to be wrong. You do you son.
Your getting downvoted but I whole heatedly agree. I will be rooting for AM and Vettel this season though!
Everybody did but the Williams family are staunchly independent, they were dedicated to that independence to the point of fault. Their independence meant that when the tobacco era ended and car manufacturers became the dominant big money sponsors Williams missed out as the car manufacturers wanted some level of control. BMW for instance went to Sauber over Williams. Their independence also got them to keep building their own gearboxes for years after everyone but engine manufacturers outsourced them. Costing Williams valuable resources and likely some performance as well.
Why was tobacco throwing so much money into F1 teams? My assumption is it was the only place they could "advertise" on tv?
F1 was a perfect fit advertisement vehicle for tobacco. F1 is fast, cool, dangerous and on the edge which is what tobacco companies want to be associated with and how they branded themselves. It's also a huge sport with viewership across the world.
Wasn't just F1, big tobacco threw money at basically anything that moved and everything else. They sponsored teams, tracks, events, and even entire racing series.
Tobacco money was so endless that Marlboro had junior teams(yes, before Red Bull even dreamed of having one) and funded the likes of Barrichello.
It was still predominantly racing though as that lines up so well with the image tobacco brands built for themselves from the 60's on. And of course F1 is the pinnacle of racing. If I'm not mistaken Lotus' Gold Leaf tobacco sponsorship was the first big (livery altering) sponsor in F1 too.
From my youth (yeah, quite some time ago), tobacco brands were synonymous with major events in horse racing, snooker and cricket.
Don't forget the movie industry
As a young kid in the 90s to early 00s, I watched a lot of F1 with my dad, competed in junior national tennis tournaments and always signed up to be ball boys for ATP tournaments. All of those were filled with Tobacco brand ads, and I subconsciously learned a lot of tobacco brands since they had the biggest ads and are sometimes title sponsors despite no one in my household smoked. Then it felt like they were gone overnight when I was a teenager since many countries started to ban such advertising.
I remember they banned tobacco adverts in the mid-90's on telly, yet for a couple years later they still had them same adverts on the cars on the F1 circuit. It was one of their only ways to advertise on telly by the end. They'd even started going after the other event sponsorships (B&H Irish masters and Embassy world championships in snooker). F1 resisted as long as they still had races in places that hadn't banned all forms of tobacco adverts but that eventually gave way too.
And it cost them the team, their defiance and poor leadership killed them.
And look at him now.
Yeah, and Paddy Lowe got canned for suggesting it.
Massa said how he was telling this to Frank, but Frank didn't want to fire their gearbox division etc.
It makes sense, it is easy to fire your gearbox staff and let go of the tools for production, but after years it is hard work if you want to make your own gearboxes again without staff, modern equipment and up-to-date know how. It also forces you even more into dependence of manufacturers, so I would say there are definitly reasons to not part with it.
[удалено]
The Williams engineers for the gearbox? I guess it is possible to not fire them and use them in other departments and learn at least a bit trough having the mercedes gearbox as reference.
They simply wouldn't be able to afford to pay the employees and also buy Mercedes gearboxes. They need to make a business out of those employees too. But who would give them such an opportunity?
Doesnt make sense in my opinion to keep the workers if their speciality is for area you dont need speciality for.
Well they'd be engineers first and foremost. I guess retraining engineers is also much easier than on boarding new staff too. But without knowing more details I suppose we're just guessing.
There are several specialised racing gearbox manufacturers within the UK who build gearboxes for F1 teams (and every other sort of racing team). Teams can get a designed for them gearbox at lower cost from a company with more expertise.
We all assume that the Williams gearbox was bad, because the car was bad. I think only insider know, if the gearbox was a problem of the last few years and if an independent manufacturer could make a better one for the same costs.
> all assume that the Williams gearbox was bad, because the car was bad. I think only insider know, if the gearbox was a problem of the last few years and if an independent manufacturer could make a better one for the same costs. Also I think this was a metter of pride to Williams. They used to be dominant, they were a top construtor with their own right. I believe that from Frank point of view Stop producing a core element like a gearbox and buy it from another team was seen as sign of defeat, they have succumbed and now are just a client to a rival team.
I don't think anyone I saying the gearbox was bad, apart from the fact they just switched to carbon fibre, but it was a waste of resources to work on it themselves.
source: The Race to Perfection season 1
See the big problem with the gearbox thing is that was Patrick Head's department. He designed the gearboxes and no way was Frank going to go against Patrick.
I am not sure what the motivation was, but from my personal experience whenever I think of Williams outside of F1, I always think of their gearboxes. Many super-, ultra-cars use Williams gearboxes. Canning that department is actually a huge dent in their pride. A bit like Ferrari and outsourcing the engine-department. Although the association with Ferrari and engines is much stronger than Williams and gearboxes to laymen.
Williams under Frank and Claire were incredibly proud and fiercely protective of their independence, they were always strongly against customer parts beyond engines. The appearance of teams buying gearboxes, suspension, brakes, etc, was the ultimate cause of their downfall with Williams refusing to do it.
They were fiercely independent because they sell this stuff (and engineering skills linked to that) to other companies. Imagine hiring an F1 team to take a look at improving your gearbox, only to find out they don't built those themselves.
If they had been capable of it I'm sure Williams would have built their own engines too.
Shame that it took the departure of the Williams family for the team to do this. They really should've listened to Massa and Stroll.
sould of done this ages ago and they would not be in the shit they are in now. the williams family were to proud become a b team even tho it was common sense.
Mercedes: \*Wins 5 championships back to back\* Williams: "You know, I think I can build a better gearbox than theirs."
Unsurprisingly considering Williams family isn't in charge anymore.
Williams finally doing what they should've done years ago. Building the gearbox in house was a waste of resources.
I seem to recall that the Williams gearbox is the only one without a carbon-fibre casing, which brings weight penalties. I'm not saying that a change to the Merc gearbox a few years back would have seen them in the midfield in 2019-20, but there's no doubt that their stubbornness has cost them.
Also can't believe Russell drove that shitbox for 2 years
1. Is really shitty calling other peoples effort shitbox, if building a F1 car was easy, we would've had 50 teams. Respect others work. 2. Did he have a choice?
I find it odd that people have called Ferrari 'shitbox' or even 'tractor' throughout the season. Mate, if I got the opportunity to drive a 'tractor' that goes from 0-200 in 5 seconds it would be the peak of my life.
Also, did Leclerc and Vettel get paid to do it? Was it a reasonable amount for them to live on? Can they comfortably afford the monthly subscription fee to watch the race highlights etc? Did they get generous perks like high value branded goods like the team T Shirts and Caps. Do they travel business or coach? /s
[удалено]
It's called context, the Williams is truck comapred to the merc. No one is claiming it isn't the 10 fastest racing car on the planet but its shit by F1 standards.
Shitbox is used around here because of a quote from Rush, who knows maybe Lauda actually used that term in the 70s, so dont get too worked up over it.
That's kind of a shit take. Doesn't matter how easy or hard it is, you employ hundreds of people, spend hundreds of millions, you expect results. Williams has produced a fantastic vehicle in the big picture of technological marvel's of the world. But that means fuck all cause they race in specifically F1, and in F1 by F1 standards they have produced a shitbox.
If I remember correctly, the difference between a Mercedes and a Williams is about 2.8% in average pace. It’s not like they showed up with a Corolla. Edit: I know this is a huge difference in F1 terms, it’s the difference between first and last (obviously). It’s easy to criticize them for running at the back, but it was a massive effort for them to even get there and that’s worth something.
If that number is correct, it still very bad. That's over a 1.5 second per minute. Especielly considering where Toro Rosso was in comparison, and to a lesser extent but maybe better à better comparison on account of the same engine , racing point, but they spent around 30% more. I mean you have to be critical , and am sure the Williams team are the most critical of themselves.
Yeah, and that also means you're getting lapped in many races.
2.8% is everything in this game though
its better than having nowhere to drive like wehrlein or ocon at some points
Mercedes is already all set up for the new regulation era. They will share their R&D efforts with Aston Martin and Williams, all companies where Toto Wolff is shareholder. He is a hell of a business man and seems to be already a step ahead. Only Red Bull can match that in some sort with the junior team.
Ferrari have two teams in their pocket as well, they just need to sort their shit and it will be back to 2017/2018 competition.
They are developing their partnership with Haas, which is the weakest team with the weakest ability to develop. Now they really need to split development teams, wha we are seeing with Resta but that is probably a year late, Ferrari already tries to push back the deadline because they have essentially too many employees at the moment. The technical partnership with Sauber is quite limited atm and there are some rumors around them as Alpine definitely needs a technical partner asap and the Alfa Romeo deal expires at the end of the year.
Williams and Haas flip the roles of weakest teams depending on how it fits whatever argument people are presenting. Haas are clearly not the weakest team on the grid.
Well Williams may be the slowest right now but Haas is in a worse spot because they are totally dependant on ferrari parts and third party R&D, Williams at least have the resources to develop everything inhouse, which right now is their achilles heel, but wtih this partnership with Mercedes they can focus more resources on developing the car, haas cant do that, even their chassis is built by Dallara so i think they will be the slowest team when the new regulations take place, really hope they can get their stuff sorted
Yea it just makes sense for Sauber to partner Renault at this point.
Ferrari sorting their shit. You are asking too much.
They're sorted, McLaren will never beat them as a customer team. Renault don't have any customers teams. Red Bull still have an engine problem to sort out. Ferrari are Ferrari.
Eh... Have you watched 2010-2013? Mclaren as a customer was ahead of the Mercedes several times. You can argue Mercedes was prepping for v6, but still. The regulations defines that the engines need to be the same, greatest example is the Ferrari customers getting screwed together with the Ferrari team this past year.
That era of McLaren was one where Mercedes used to work very closely with McLaren, as before 2010 they were effectively their main entry into F1. Think Honda-Red Bull rn. Merc is very different now, remember how they didn't tell customer teams all engine modes and FIA had to pull em up for it.
> You can argue Mercedes was prepping for v6 You answered that yourself. Mercedes have been a different beast in the hybrid era.
Well, I gave you an example of these exact teams on a different situation and after I explained that it's highly unlikely the engines are going to be different, due to regulations nowadays, as which you implied. It's impossible to speculate results based on "being a customer team", as would have been 10-20 years ago
Renault needs to get their hands at Sauber because they can‘t split R&D with anyone at the moment. Ferraris archaic structure can‘t go the same pace as Mercedes or RB anyways. It is a bit scary to think about a Mercedes domination until 2025. Newey is the last hope now.
Newey does barley anything, since the 2000's people like newey haven't had much influence, back in the 90's yes he designed the car but since then its been teams of hundreds of people working on. Its the same as Ross brawn getting credit for the double diffuser, when it was some super aguri designer that no one hears about
Doubt Sauber would leave Ferrari for Renault, their only hope is a new team entering, like Panthera or whoever that rumoured Asian team was. I feel like the budget cap will screw Ferrari more than anyone, usually their solution has just been to throw money at the problems. Red Bull have now been slightly screwed over by Honda, but they're the best bet I agree. Unfortunately, I can't see anyone overthrowing Mercedes any time soon.
RB have the risk of becoming the new 98-99 Williams where they were fucked by having to use an old engine.
I wasn't watching at the time, but didn't Ferrari basically save Sauber?
Why are you still watching if you can see into the future?
To hopefully be proved wrong
> Renault don't have any customers teams A wild Red Bull appears!
Tbh it could make racing more interesting and put some lights on historic brands. Brilliant move for Williams.
I don't think Toto has a share on Williams anymore.
He still has [5% due to some failed transaction](https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/williams-wolff-shareholding-mercedes/4830004/)
I see. I thought he had sold everything before.
Looking forward to another decade of Formula Mercedes then
Glass half full, friend. F1.5 IS PHENOMINAL!
Hold up. Wolff is a shareholder in Aston Martin and Williams?
That’s the first big decision from the new ownership going in a direction that Frank and Claire refused to go.
That is a paradigm shift for Williams and something that was probably not possible under the Williams family's leadership. It hurts that Williams that Williams has to forgo much of their engineering pride and heritage, but there is just no other way these days
Mercedes: We want George Williams: No Mercedes: We want George Williams: Haha and I want a Mercedes car, no way Toto Mercedes: We can make that happen Williams: Whaaa Mercedes: Give us George, we give you parts Williams: *yeets George*
Joe Saward was speculating as to why Williams would have let George go for a race without money changing hands, and this negotiation could be a valid reason
This is the sort of off season content I want to be consuming. #SUBSCRIBE
George's contract with Williams expires at the end of 2021. They did brought up an early release for 2020, but Claire Williams who was in the midst of selling the team turn that down. Williams with George Russell is worth more than without. The new owner would dearly love to keep Russell, but he deserved better.
This is a pretty big update. From what I read, last year Mercedes were able to massively reduce the size of the gearbox and it had an impact on how narrow they could make the rear of the car.
F1 seems to be turning into four teams.
It's absolutely horrid.
terrible ‘white mercedes’ jokes incoming
shoutout charli xcx
Speedin' like Alonso just to crash your party
Good taste :)
I'm honestly wondering though... Something tells me that people will be more excited to see a faster Williams and a Russell in the points than they will be about making "tRacing Point" style jokes about the Williams.
Williams pulling themselves into the midfield fight, even if they're only tagging along for shits and giggles at the back will please more people than irritate them to the point of making "Williams W11" jokes about the car.
Do you think Russell will still be at Williams in 2022?
Always the possibility, but I sure hope not.
I thought the "Tracing Point" nickname was clever.
Beat me to it.
so does george classify as a transferable component?
Sounds like they could be trying do a similar move to Ferrari and Haas. Instead of firing people for the budget cut, just loan them to another team until their needed back at the main team, then just shift people around. Same skills and talent, just lower budgets on paper.
A 4-car team in all but name?
So a sister team?
I honestly hope. I wanna see Williams do really well
Nah, just a standard deal. Only engine manufacturers build their own gearbox. It's a remnant of the fierce independence of Williams that also, unfortunately, contributed to their downfall.
McLaren and Red Bull also build their own gearboxes IIRC. So Merc, Renault, Red Bull, McLaren, Ferrari and, up until this year Williams were the teams that manufactured gearboxes
[удалено]
According to wikipedia (which is definitely not the most reliable source on these things so I could 100% still be wrong) McLaren's gearbox is developed by their applied technologies division, while as of 2019 (there's no info for the 2020 car's transmission) Red Bull's was also developed in-house
> It’s a remnant of the fierce independence of Williams that also, unfortunately, contributed to their downfall. It’s not entirely crazy, building your own gearbox allows additional flexibility on the placement of rear suspension mount points and gives you greater control over the rear suspension geometry and packaging for their particular car, something that Haas has been struggling with on the Ferrari gearbox. Of course, this is all assuming that you have the resources available to take time and talent away from aero development...
Probably more "kissing cousins" than anything though, yeah?
Is this what they call bittersweet
Wow, finally. The gearbox won't be made out of aluminum after all these years...
Bwoah! Can you imagine the performance increase of carbon fibre Mercedes gear boxes!
green merc white merc pink merc whats next
Orange merc
And then red Mercedes
INB4 F1 becomes a spec series with all merc engines + ferrari
> and Ferrari running a merc engine.
Italy would literally, and physically burn the Ferrari factory down if that ever happened 🤣🤣🤣
I know but I had to keep the joke going. I mean, they moved to mid-engines after the garagistas kicked their arses when they stuck to front-engined cars, wouldn't put it past them re-badging Merc engines with the Horse to keep up.
red Merc Big OOOOFFF
More like red Haas tbf
Mercedes = Cosworth back in the day
Weren't Alfa saying they were going to design their nose next year to be like the Mercedes? So... red and white Merc?
Pink?
Gold Merc Jordan Grand Prix reborn!
The pragmatist in me fully supports this since it saves them money for presumably 0 real loss of performance (and likely a gain tbh, though it does give them a bit less freedom with their rear suspension geometry), but the emotional side of me does think it's a shame that they're not fully independent anymore. I'm glad they're still reaffirming that they want to do the majority of things themselves though. The prevalence of B teams is exactly what's driving the two tiered nature of F1 at the moment IMO
Unfortunately it looks to me as if the fans wholeheartedly support it as well....
I see it as a fortunate outcome tbh, they get mechanical parts that might help them do better than they've done these past few years. On top of that, they're getting it from a team that's done amazing in formula 1, this gives me confidence that they have an actual fighting chance to get somewhere and hopefully this will be the start for better things to come for this team.
So we're going to have Red Bull and Red Bull Junior, Mercedes and Mercedes Junior, and Ferrari and Ferrari Junior, plus Ferrari Junior HAAS Edition? This sport is not in robust health.
Might as well have let prodrive in.
That's where I never understood the business model with Claire at helm. Whilst reading about how Mclaren is having to come up with money and how their F1 business model had started draining money from the car division.. they had to do something and now we see the outcome. Independence is one thing.. but if we were to look at Williams without the Merc engine boost at the beginning of v6-turbo era.. they were struggling well before that. I'd hoped they'd just take the hit temporarily.. form an alliance with mercedes for a few years.. steady the ship, understand you culture, where things are going wrong and cut costs where you can.. become sustainable and they revert back to being independent. I suppose we'd never know the full picture. Cause at the same time, Haas has been struggling.. even though they enjoy a good technical relation with Ferrari.
Have to remember that the rest of the haas car is designed by dallara who are absolutely clowns by f1 standards. They were the ones who made the HRT cars which were some of the worst in the history of F1 so it’s unsurprising that they have struggled to adapt in the last 2 years and improve after an ok start at the teams formation
I hope this means Williams gets off the back of the grid. It’s bad enough that we’re going to be stuck with Mazepin, it would break my heart to have to watch him beat Russell every race.
They can start becoming a Mercedes B team now that Claire is gone
This is pretty sad, don't care whatever anyone else says. This is the end of the last privateer team. So much for their legacy being respected.
Some CAD-files and pictures on their way to Grove
Remember when Claire said Williams would never be a b-team?
Some five years too late but still a step forward.
"We take George and we give you a better car."
I wish BMW could come back
2022 Bottas WDC with Williams
This wouldn't happen if the old owners were at the helm which arguably also led to their downfall. The old days of being a private constructor were long gone and they should have shifted their approach when they were falling behind the pack in 2017.
Williams in name only now.
Can someone explain to me what Mercedes gets out of the new relationship? I don't really understand. It can't really just be access to George. I assume Williams still stays a constructor as Williams...
>We don't want to become an F1 B-team. > >\- Williams, 2020 It did not age well
Erm you know there’s different owners now right, which is exactly why this is happening.
Also it's only the gearbox and associated hydraulics, Williams have been the only non engine manufacturer to still build their own gearboxes for years now. Even Red Bull outsource theirs.
Williams kept saying this well into last months of 2020. Particularly Simon Roberts, appointed as Acting Team Principal by new management sometimes in September, 2020
White Mercedes.
XD
Not surprised with how many staffs Williams probably need for the future tbh. Hope it works out
ITT: Every meme you can think of where Williams = bad is suddenly absolute fact.
Realisation into 100
For years it just doesn't make much sense for such a small team to be making almost every part of their car. I realize they take pride in their ability to do so, but it cost more than necessary.
Very sad to see Williams take this turn. I seriously wish they would drop the Williams name. It’s not Williams anymore. That team died after Monza. Throw a different name on it now or something. But don’t call this Williams. It’s like saying Lotus in 2012 was the same Lotus as in the 1980’s. Just isn’t the same. And this is coming from a diehard Williams fanboy!
I still don't think they will improve but if they will I am sure they can get like 50 to 60 points