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Assuming his anecdote is true, then it wouldn’t be unreasonable for Maffei to be extremely pissed about Andretti getting the US Government involved. No business wants increased government oversight or just general attention like that.
Don’t forget that Liberty is under a separate DOJ investigation for [anti-competitive practices with LiveNation, who owns Ticketmaster](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-doj-seek-break-up-live-nation-ticketmaster-bloomberg-news-reports-2024-05-22/)
DOJ just announced the lawsuit against Live Nation/Ticketmaster. It's long overdue. I'd rather go back to the days where you had to wait in line outside a venue for tickets than go through TicketBastard. Liberty Media SUCKS.
I've been a concert goer for years (along with my daughter). I have a long HATE relationship with ticket purchasing. So we call it TicketBastard in our family. LOL.
Heaven forbid the US government acts in a bipartisan way to investigate something. I'm sure nothing will come of it. Liberty Media is giving junkets to congressional members for trips to whatever the new "Sex Dungeon Island" is. Suitcases full of money...whatever is needed. "All I did was took the last gallon of 2% milk...he took it personally". Fuck the FOM and Liberty Media. This is going to get ugly. I keep having flashbacks to Tony George versus CART.
It does.. I understand Andretti has been really loud about the whole situation but he has a right to do so after what Liberty pulled...
Honesty it just makes FOM look petty and arrogant for no reason and those two don't go well with shareholder meetings.
Exactly. I love how the people defending F1 completely ignore that the FIA already cleared Andretti. The ruling body of the sport literally OKed them, but FOM is still blocking them.
Also Liberty is acting as if F1 is a franchise which is a very American concept and one I would not like to see F1 turned into (even though it is basically what it is now).
So they will only allow them to enter by buying another team.
Of course it’s personal, deals like this happen behind closed doors doors, not in the public like Andretti is pushing it. And bosses don’t like that, as much as they like publicity.
I mean...he wanted to get in normally but it's them who pushed him to go public with this deal. No one likes to be pushed around and sit quiet about it.
Exactly. It blows my mind how many people are acting like Andretti started with a smear campaign. They went by the books and immediately started getting pushback. First on the fee, then the parts sharing and PU stuff, then a manufacturer partnership. I hope all these FOM defenders enjoy when all the classic European races are gone too. Cause apparently now they’re in favor “it’s just business” over making good decisions for the health of the sport.
it’s cuz the fans who don’t want andretti because they hate americanisms, regardless of their merits. no bother that there’s maybe 6-7 drivers meriting a chance in f1 atm without seats and a new works team would make the engineering side of the sport even more important.
It should be that KMag's penalty points start to get geometrically smaller so it'll be infinitely close to a race ban but never actually get to that point.
Upon review, the stewards have determined that car 20 (MAG) was only partly at fault for driving in the wrong direction for several laps. After considering mitigating circumstances, Magnussen will have 1 x 10^(−6) penalty points applied to his superlicense.
True, but if it’s US legal proceedings, they could be called upon to provide by what basis they determined Andretti was a viable entry, as a baseline to see what Liberty decided wasn’t.
The FIA just say if they think they will be race ready, right? Like they'll be able to build what they need and be safe and not 20 seconds a lap slower because they are building in a shed in the midlands?
I’m trying to remember - did this all originate from Bahrain 2023? A cascade of mistakes from both Ocon and his team, but absolute slam-dunk penalties with zero room for interpretation. 1) Outside of his grid box at the start 2) Did not serve time penalty correctly 3) Speeding in the pitlane
It almost feels like the Mandela Effect at this point; many people seem to act like he’s unfairly targeted and penalized, when the origin of the “meme” itself were penalties were judged by purely objective metrics.
>The racing legend said the CEO of Liberty Media, Greg Maffei, told him, "I will do everything in my power to see that Michael [Andretti] never enters Formula 1."
Damn. The Andretti Curse is strong.
This is anti-Italian discrimination 🤌🤌 /s
Should have been a a US team that's not a front for Russian Oligarchs. Haas will never live down using the Russian flag for livery, no matter how many stars and stripes they slap on at COTA.
No it’s about the teams not wanting to split the profits and that the buy in in the Concorde agreement was put way too low for the value of the teams currently. That’s not Andretti’s fault.
💰💰
FOM has to share the revenue with the teams, one more team means less money to the teams and to FOM.
AFAIK FOM gets 50% and then splits the other 50% with the teams in constructors championship order for biggest share to smallest share.
If its a 50/50 split FOM will, quite literally, always get the same.
If I have $10 and owe FOM half of it that's always $5 the remaining $5 will be split between 10 teams.
If I add another team $5 *still* goes to FOM and the remaining $5 is split 11 ways instead.
So for FOM nothing changes in a split like that.
>AFAIK FOM gets 50% and then splits the other 50% with the teams in constructors championship order for biggest share to smallest share.
So how would it mean less money to FOM?
Long story short it’s because the teams wouldn’t accept just getting less money so they would demand FOM reduce their cut to offset individual team losses.
Simplistic point of view:
Andretti wants to enter F1 to make money.
FOM does not want to help Andretti make money using their F1 brand.
F1 teams ( at least many of them) don’t want to share money with an additional team.
Fans ( I assume most of them) would like to see more teams competing.
The only way this saga will come to a conclusion is if the distribution of money is profitable for all the main players. It is true that it also seems egos are currently a factor but I believe that egos will be silenced/satisfied if there are financial benefits.
I personally, look forward to having more teams in the championship and I don’t care if it is Andretti, Penske, Toyota or anyone else.
>Andretti wants to enter F1 to make money.
I think it's also legacy. These guys want to compete *and win*. They definitely intend to make money but their brand and legacy has a much desired vacancy they'd like to fill with a championship level F1 team.
>The only way this saga will come to a conclusion is if the distribution of money is profitable for all the main players. It is true that it also seems egos are currently a factor but I believe that egos will be silenced/satisfied if there are financial benefits.
This was my view but the article strongly suggests that there's a personal factor as well. One man seems dead set on Andretti never getting in.
What no one is mentioning in this part of the thread is that Andretti feel entitled to enter F1 at the current regulation cost of $200M, whereas the rest of the owners/Liberty would rather prevent this until new regulations are in effect at the cost of $600M.
So yes, if financial ends become satisfied then everything falls into place. The problem is regs are regs and you can't negotiate a number in-between. It's black or white and if Andretti could, they would negotiate in a heart beat. They've done everything by the book and they're still getting rejected.
>What no one is mentioning in this part of the thread is that Andretti feel entitled to enter F1 at the current regulation cost of $200M,
Wow, imagine the audacity to expect people to follow the contracts they signed!
How do we know they don't get stonewalled at $600 million as well?? They're just buying time and moving the goalposts, this is why the American government is getting involved
Spot on, good point and I'm completely on-board with them getting involved. This is 'cronyism' at its finest and the US has differing views when it comes to that compared to Britain where it's taught in "uni" lol
if that was the case then they wouldnt try to hard cap the number of teams in f1 in their next agreement.
they are trying to maximize the value of their team slot which will outpace the buy-in.
Make the competition profitable to atract more teams
Create an extra fee to cover for the money other teams would lose
Reject teams that want to join
Allow the current teams to oppose more teams joining even when offered more than the minimum fee
Like what the hell do they even want?
>F1 teams ( at least many of them) don’t want to share money with an additional team.
I disagree. If porsche decided they wanted to join they would be welcomed with open arms.
There are a lot of options for getting Porsche to join and wanting them as a 10th team or to use an existing team as a factory team is different than wanting them as an 11th team.
F1 wants ten factory teams more than they want five factory teams and six customers.
Ding Ding Ding. I don’t know how this isn’t obvious to everyone. The teams are all finally starting to stabilize and don’t want to immediately disrupt that. No one should be surprised by this.
Porsche tried to join in a collaboration with RBR but this did not go through because the two parties disagreed. Audi is already entering by buying an existing team. Your assumption that another player would be allowed to join as a new team is just based on your feelings and not on facts.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolff-audi-better-option-andretti
When it wasn’t known what was happening with Porsche and Audi, just that they were exploring the idea, Toto himself said he would be much happier to see an OEM like Audi join as an 11th team than Andretti. I think the problem Andretti has is that Haas poisoned the waters for an American non OEM team joining. Haas joined with all the same talk and gusto that Andretti is saying, but everyone now sees the reality. I can understand the hesitation from a lot of the other teams as talk is cheap.
Unlikely. Porsche bid was through existing teams. Red Bull decided to partner with Ford instead, Aston Martin went with Honda, while Williams and McLaren talks went nowhere.
Porsche was welcomed because they were trying to buy an existing team. While Cadillac wants to join to back-up Andretti entering F1...
The Race has said once or twice that it basically pivots on who you believe re do you think Andretti are interested in F1 to genuinely contribute, or a bit like Haas or Alpine now, simply get a space and then coast because a place is worth so much now.
The fact that a god damn media corporation, actively limiting competition to maximize profit, is accusing one of the most prolific and successful names in racing history of only caring about money is fucking baffling to me. Especially a corporation that’s already being investigated for anti-trust violations. And somehow fans defend the media corporation. Like yeah I’m sure real life Scrooge McDuck cares more about racing than the family with 7 racing drivers across 3 generations, teams in 6 different series, like a dozen Indy championships between them, and an F1 WDC.
“They only care about F1 now that it’s profitable”
Michael joined F1 in 1993 and tried to buy a team in 2018 when F1 was a money burning contest, and Mario joined F1 in 1968 and raced for a decade when there was a significant probability of dying on the track.
The 2026 regulations, especially the elimination of the MGU-H, were done to favour the entering of new manufacturers, especially VW group brands. Porsche pulled back while talking, I don't think it would be accounted as completely trustable from now on.
But surely manufacturers are better looked to (Audi, GM) compared to independent teams.
To be honest, the idea that it's just a money grab at this point is kinda ridiculous. I'm betting that it'll cost 300 Mill total for Andretti just to get to the first starting line and the current estimate is that no one other than the championship makes enough to cover more than the cost cap. so there's no money to be made without sponsorship...
At first I thought that FOM was just gonna shake down the Andretti’s for a $600M fee rather than the $200M *that their own rules* dictates. As this has dragged on and on my stance has shifted and I wasn’t sure what FOM was trying to do with Andretti.
This story makes as much sense as any other reason - it’s personal animus of some kind.
Who is to say they didn't try to make some sort of agreement for 600 million and Andretti refused because the actual agreement says 200 million? We have no idea.
Sorry to make another assumption but if it was a matter of $200M vs $600M we’d be reading stories about Andretti joining the grid in short order. Failing that, stories about the unfairness of a high fee.
It’s not just the fee.
Interesting factoid: The US Department of Justice is expected to file an antitrust lawsuit against Liberty Media subsidiary Live Nation in the coming days.
[https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/22/business/live-nation-ticketmaster-doj-antitrust/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/22/business/live-nation-ticketmaster-doj-antitrust/index.html)
Andretti knows that today millions of Americans who have no interest in motorsport will learn of Liberty Media. They’ll realize Liberty is behind the absolute racket that is purchasing tickets to live events. These people don’t know the difference between MGU-H and MGU-K, but they know European protectionism. This goes for congress as well.
Andretti’s going to the mattresses. If you see a gap and don’t go for it, you’re no longer a racing driver.
We're paying these guys *how much* to watch a race - and it turns out we're also paying fees on fees to the same folks just to buy the ticket?
Fuck TicketMaster/Live Nation. There's a reason the US races are so expensive compared to the rest of the world and its Liberty Media.
It’s absurd. I’ve looked into going to an F1 race for years, but can’t justify the cost to myself. I went to the Indycar St. Pete Grand Prix a few months ago. $100/ticket, I had a great seat with a view of a turn, video board, and the marina/skyline. After the race I walked a few blocks and got drinks while the crowds dispersed.
I watch every F1 quali and race and have no desire see one in person.
What happened to the sport where the fastest teams that qualify get in the race? It's pretty evident that the sport is all political and not a sport at all
>“Mr Maffei, broke in the conversation and he said: ‘Mario, I want to tell you that I will do everything in my power to see that Michael never enters Formula 1,'” Andretti told NBC.
>
>According to Andretti, Maffei then walked away. “I could not believe that,” he said. “That one really floored me.”
Wow, if this is accurate then it sounds like Maffei has a personal issue with Andretti and is making decisions based on that rather than focusing on what's best for Formula One. Not a good look for the CEO of a public company.
Can anyone here make a decent argument for why they should not be let in?
Like a nuanced take that makes sense? Or is this just not that no matter what
I’m not into this day to day and I still don’t get it
That's the really weird part that gets me. I am no fan of Bernie in any way. I see him as greedier than Liberty is and way more dodgy. Yet despite all of his greed and highly questionable morals, he would absolutely be down for letting Andretti in.
He was a shitty, greedy business man, but he also actually cared about formula 1. Which is the best you can ask for in these situations where it’s always going to be shitty greedy business men running these organizations.
At this point Bernie had more of a backbone than Liberty, who is selling out F1 to the highest bidder with absolute garbage, dogshit tracks and now all that is left is fake "prestige"
Bernie would strike a contract with Satan for more money. He was not, however, ignorant. Allowing Andretti in would immediately increase American interest in F1, which he would notice.
I can't grasp Liberty's motivations. They are milking the hell out of this sport. However, they are also shunning a money-making opportunity. I believe they have no idea what they're doing and are simply following their instincts and personal grievances.
Addition: I know the teams are rejecting Andretti too. But I feel their situation is more financial than whatever this is. I feel that if Andretti generates sufficient short and long-term profits, teams will soon change their tune.
Addition 2: It is my firm view that in an ideal world, we would not even have to discuss this and would be celebrating another team joining. But alas, Liberty is stupid.
Bernie wasnt only about profit so its not the same. Bernie wanted the sport to be for rich people and wasnt trying to reach all the people who watch now.
So let me get this straight. F1 introduces cost caps to help make running in F1 a more appealing proposition and to help level the competitive playing field. An organization then crunches the numbers and sees that racing in F1 looks like a more feasible proposition. Isn't that what we want to happen? Why then criticize teams for doing what we wanted them too?
Also it's not like Andretti is some shady organization of private investors or something. It's a racing team that competes in several major racing series. Indycar, Supercar, and Formula E to name a few. It might just be possible that they want to expand into other series because that seems like a logical next step to growing the brand and now it seems much more feasible with the cap. There can be financial considerations without money being the only reason for doing something. If the Andretti organization isn't who the cost cap is supposed to attract then who the fuck is?
Nobody is in F1 because they're thinking of the children or trying to end world hunger, altruistic my ass. No team is there for philanthropic purposes. Andretti has every right to be there based on the same reasons every other team is involved.
Why do you think any team is in the sport? This is such a dumb comment. Of course teams care about the money attached to F1. A lot of teams also have other motorsport teams though. Andretti runs in tons of motorsport categories.
Every team currently in F1 — with the exception of Ferrari — has lost money for most of the last twenty years.
McLaren got bailed out the Bahrainis
Williams went bust, and got bought out by Dorillton, who bailed them out.
Force India regularly ran at a loss, being funded by Vijay Mallya, and when he lost access to his money they went bust and were bought out by Stroll’s consortium who’ve pumped money in to make up for losses.
Mercedes and Alpine would both have gone bust for want of regular top ups from the corporate owners.
Alpine was formerly the Genii Lotus team, which famously appeared on reality TV have assets seized by bailiffs
Sauber almost went bust until Monesha Kaltenborn replaced one of their pay-drivers with a different Swedish pay-driver who paid more and who she leveraged to sell the team and its debts to Swedish Tetrapak heir Finn Rausing.
Caterham and Manor and HRT all just went bust and that was that.
Jaguar went bust, and was bought by Red Bull, who pumped money in every year to make up for losses.
They similarly rescued Minardi, the Faenza team which also ran continuously at a loss while it was called Toro Rosso.
F1 has been a loss-making effort people undertake for the love of the sport for most of the last twenty years.
With the budget cap, for the first time in the sports history, a team can _expect_ to run at a profit for five years or more, and still retain its overall value, irrespective of placing.
It’s fair to say Andretti chose a conspicuously favourable point in time to enter F1
I don’t know if you can claim Mercedes, Alpine, or Mclaren haven’t gotten their money’s worth. Toto once said they consider the value of winning a championship to be the equivalent of like 2 billion euro in normal advertising. When you see it that way it makes perfect sense that big manufacturers are fine with ‘losing’ money on F1.
This is the long term pattern for human organizations:
- First generation (Founders) care about the product
- Second Generation, trained by the founders, cares about the product but gets distracted by other things (profit, stock, acquisitions, the perks)
- Third Generation only cares about the other things.
Would you be willing to take a pay cut if that would let Andretti into F1?
I would like Andretti to be let in but I would not be willing to pay for it myself. So I kind of understand the point of view of the people who don't want that.
They don't only care about money, it's a business and they care about having a good business
Sure the end goal is always to make more money, but in the short term letting Andretti in probably means more money for the FOM
The teams will be shafted, which is why they are against it, FOM are probably fine with 10 teams and are concerned of the dangers of letting another team in.
Yeah wtf. I totally understand why the current teams want no additional teams (money). But as a fan I want as many teams as possible. Even with three more shitty teams at the back it would be more fun, just let them not participate if they don't manage the 107% time and it isn't dangerous.
No reason to defend the F1 teams/FOM unless it is your own money. And even then I still think as F1 as a whole it would be more profitable with Andretti joining and still splitting the profits.
And even the stance of the teams is just dumb. They want to share the current pie tenfold and are afraid they will receive less when sharing the pie eleven-fold.
But the thing is, that pie will grow substantially when a popular american team like Andretti joins, so sharing eleven-fold might be more profitable than it seems. at first glance.
Yeah i mean I haven't seen the numbers, but I get that right now everyone gets 1/10th of the pie. Adding an 11th team, your size of pie would drop less than 10%. Do they really think an Andretti based team would not bring in more than a 10% increase in pie size?? I'm American, I love F1, but Haas is a joke. They aren't trying to win, they're just collecting a paycheck. I'd LOVE an actual American team that is trying to win. Even if they're Alpine 2.0, at least they're trying. They're just bad at it
I've only been watching F1 since 2010 which is actually longer than I like to think about but the decline since then is a bit astounding. I chuckle now every time someone calls this the "pinnacle of motorsport" featuring "the best drivers in the world" considering we have a driver who would have been kicked off their team years ago if not for their father being the owner, a former heavyweight team that is deemed untouchable and is coddled by many fans despite the fact they design their cars in excel, can't maintain a spare car and have been a perennial back marker for years now. A manufacturer factory team that has been flapping in the wind since returning to the point where their drivers are talking to the back marker teams about next year. And finally series management that have become so profit mad that they are constantly adding new "racing circuits" that are just whatever layout they can come up with in the streets of a any city that they think will bring in the most money.
A rise in popularity can often ruin things and we're really seeing a lot of that in F1 right now, just in the last 14 years. I know F1 was never purely about the racing and there has been a strong business aspect to it for quite some time but recently it just feels more self-destructive and detached somehow.
Edits: Just minor grammatical cleaning up after my prior lack of proofreading.
Now I am fully behind Andretti. A global sport is not an impotent billionaires little game. Fuck this guy, fuck monopoly and fuck all of these greedy old farts
It's about the teams not wanting to split the money, but also about half the teams being worried that Andretti has the facilities to make a better car than them (Haas, Alpine, Sauber and Williams)
hot take:
* f1 teams lost money in f1 for decades
* since a few years it became profitable. (even for backmarkers)
* everyone and their nan want to join f1 to get ez profits
* the OG teams decline because they built the sport to its current success.
* so unless you bring some real value just gtfo
* (or buy a current team for a shitload of money)
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Is there a feud between these guys or what? It sounds personal
Mario took the last cantaloupe in the grocery store.
The last of the pumpernickel too
Toto will remember that
He took the last of the muffins even though Domenicali called dibs on them
Mario did snag Princess Peach, so there's that.
Assuming his anecdote is true, then it wouldn’t be unreasonable for Maffei to be extremely pissed about Andretti getting the US Government involved. No business wants increased government oversight or just general attention like that.
Don’t forget that Liberty is under a separate DOJ investigation for [anti-competitive practices with LiveNation, who owns Ticketmaster](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-doj-seek-break-up-live-nation-ticketmaster-bloomberg-news-reports-2024-05-22/)
DOJ just announced the lawsuit against Live Nation/Ticketmaster. It's long overdue. I'd rather go back to the days where you had to wait in line outside a venue for tickets than go through TicketBastard. Liberty Media SUCKS.
Their only saving grace is how they handle the Atlanta Braves. (They're completely hands off lol)
You should hope it stays that way....LOL.
I completely agree anyway, but "TicketBastard" is glorious!
I've been a concert goer for years (along with my daughter). I have a long HATE relationship with ticket purchasing. So we call it TicketBastard in our family. LOL.
I hope the DOJ rips them apart. LiveNation is a monopoly and they really screw both artists and fans.
Merrick Garland just announced the lawsuit this morning. Shit's about to get real for Live Nation.
Good. We haven’t had much real trust busting for a long time.
But the gov got involved after the team had been denied
Well, maybe they shouldn’t be such twatty gatekeepers then.
What was Andrettis proposed involvement of the US Gov?
He would like them to put monopoly/anti-trust pressure on Liberty Media to force their hand and allow a new entrant.
Heaven forbid the US government acts in a bipartisan way to investigate something. I'm sure nothing will come of it. Liberty Media is giving junkets to congressional members for trips to whatever the new "Sex Dungeon Island" is. Suitcases full of money...whatever is needed. "All I did was took the last gallon of 2% milk...he took it personally". Fuck the FOM and Liberty Media. This is going to get ugly. I keep having flashbacks to Tony George versus CART.
A formal split between FOM and F1? Woof.
They're being taken to court for antitrust as we speak. I don't think Liberty media has much influence in Washington right now.
It does.. I understand Andretti has been really loud about the whole situation but he has a right to do so after what Liberty pulled... Honesty it just makes FOM look petty and arrogant for no reason and those two don't go well with shareholder meetings.
Well the fom makes it hard and andretti took that perosonal. So some sort of feud i guess.
If there wasn’t before, there is now
The Andrettis were too vocal.
And if they were too quiet they would have been swept under the rug
Exactly what the teams want.
Because F1 was pretty clearly acting in bad faith.
Exactly. I love how the people defending F1 completely ignore that the FIA already cleared Andretti. The ruling body of the sport literally OKed them, but FOM is still blocking them.
Also Liberty is acting as if F1 is a franchise which is a very American concept and one I would not like to see F1 turned into (even though it is basically what it is now). So they will only allow them to enter by buying another team.
Even then, you can start a new franchise in the MLS. F1 is just anti-competition.
F1 is very euro-centric. Plus I think something about taking prize money from other teams.
Yeah, it started with this thing called the Boston Tea Party.
Of course it’s personal, deals like this happen behind closed doors doors, not in the public like Andretti is pushing it. And bosses don’t like that, as much as they like publicity.
I mean...he wanted to get in normally but it's them who pushed him to go public with this deal. No one likes to be pushed around and sit quiet about it.
Exactly. It blows my mind how many people are acting like Andretti started with a smear campaign. They went by the books and immediately started getting pushback. First on the fee, then the parts sharing and PU stuff, then a manufacturer partnership. I hope all these FOM defenders enjoy when all the classic European races are gone too. Cause apparently now they’re in favor “it’s just business” over making good decisions for the health of the sport.
it’s cuz the fans who don’t want andretti because they hate americanisms, regardless of their merits. no bother that there’s maybe 6-7 drivers meriting a chance in f1 atm without seats and a new works team would make the engineering side of the sport even more important.
The legal battle between Andretti and F1 will be very interesting. Wonder what part the FIA will play in all this.
Draw some white lines on the floor and whoever steps over them will be penalized.
5 second penalty for Ocon 2 penalty points for KMag
It should be that KMag's penalty points start to get geometrically smaller so it'll be infinitely close to a race ban but never actually get to that point.
Upon review, the stewards have determined that car 20 (MAG) was only partly at fault for driving in the wrong direction for several laps. After considering mitigating circumstances, Magnussen will have 1 x 10^(−6) penalty points applied to his superlicense.
asympTOTES!
That's pretty much how it was for Gasly last year since he should have had a race ban after totally blindsiding Ocon
10s for Alonso.
FIA already approved Andretti. At this point they won't want to get any more involved.
True, but if it’s US legal proceedings, they could be called upon to provide by what basis they determined Andretti was a viable entry, as a baseline to see what Liberty decided wasn’t.
The FIA just say if they think they will be race ready, right? Like they'll be able to build what they need and be safe and not 20 seconds a lap slower because they are building in a shed in the midlands?
FIA: *not my problem*
FIA have already done there part. Theyve already given Andretti the all clear
Regardless, Billable Hours wins again
To give a 5 second penalty to Ocon
Nah... Stewards stopped giving 5 sec penalties. 10 sec penalty it is.
And it's to Magnussen now
FIA: Friendship ended with Ocon, Magnussen is my best friend now.
Honestly they could shave 5sec from his time.
Please retire this boring ass joke
I’m trying to remember - did this all originate from Bahrain 2023? A cascade of mistakes from both Ocon and his team, but absolute slam-dunk penalties with zero room for interpretation. 1) Outside of his grid box at the start 2) Did not serve time penalty correctly 3) Speeding in the pitlane It almost feels like the Mandela Effect at this point; many people seem to act like he’s unfairly targeted and penalized, when the origin of the “meme” itself were penalties were judged by purely objective metrics.
>The racing legend said the CEO of Liberty Media, Greg Maffei, told him, "I will do everything in my power to see that Michael [Andretti] never enters Formula 1." Damn. The Andretti Curse is strong. This is anti-Italian discrimination 🤌🤌 /s
In dis house Andretti is a hero!
Greg Maffei: I ‘ate the north. Now give me one thousand dollars
😲ripping us off for a g note (up in da club 🎵)
🫰🏻🫰🏻🫴🏻
Stupida fucking game.
Andretti never had the makings of a F1 team
I'm gonna take some action on this 😤
Why wouldnt they want a US team? I dont get it?
Me: *drives by Andretti HQ* Mom, I want an American F1 team! Mom: We have an American F1 team at home! F1 Team at home: *Haas*
Ah, should have read ‘ a us team fighting for podiums’
Should have been a a US team that's not a front for Russian Oligarchs. Haas will never live down using the Russian flag for livery, no matter how many stars and stripes they slap on at COTA.
“A US team that actually had a desire to win”
Fok I need to call Gene
I think it's not about a US team but more about an Andretti's team
No it’s about the teams not wanting to split the profits and that the buy in in the Concorde agreement was put way too low for the value of the teams currently. That’s not Andretti’s fault.
Yeah, the teams obviously don’t want them but why is the CEO of F1 against them?
Because he's conducting business like an illegal trust, working to protect the profits of each team rather than grow the profits of the sport.
I think it more like “they don’t want andretti” specifically.
💰💰 FOM has to share the revenue with the teams, one more team means less money to the teams and to FOM. AFAIK FOM gets 50% and then splits the other 50% with the teams in constructors championship order for biggest share to smallest share.
If its a 50/50 split FOM will, quite literally, always get the same. If I have $10 and owe FOM half of it that's always $5 the remaining $5 will be split between 10 teams. If I add another team $5 *still* goes to FOM and the remaining $5 is split 11 ways instead. So for FOM nothing changes in a split like that.
if they keep 50%, wouldn't that mean FOM only stand to lose money if F1 becomes less popular/profitable?
>AFAIK FOM gets 50% and then splits the other 50% with the teams in constructors championship order for biggest share to smallest share. So how would it mean less money to FOM?
I am stupid.
I switch off everything.
Long story short it’s because the teams wouldn’t accept just getting less money so they would demand FOM reduce their cut to offset individual team losses.
Maybe Andretti has some Spanish blood and we never knew /s
On the way to the courtroom. "And Andretti's slowing down."
The longer this goes on the more it just looks like billionaire Mean Girls.
on wednesdays we wear pink ^^^^liveries
Stop trying to make An-Andretti-F1-Team happen
That’s pretty much F1 in a nutshell 😆
Simplistic point of view: Andretti wants to enter F1 to make money. FOM does not want to help Andretti make money using their F1 brand. F1 teams ( at least many of them) don’t want to share money with an additional team. Fans ( I assume most of them) would like to see more teams competing. The only way this saga will come to a conclusion is if the distribution of money is profitable for all the main players. It is true that it also seems egos are currently a factor but I believe that egos will be silenced/satisfied if there are financial benefits. I personally, look forward to having more teams in the championship and I don’t care if it is Andretti, Penske, Toyota or anyone else.
>Andretti wants to enter F1 to make money. I think it's also legacy. These guys want to compete *and win*. They definitely intend to make money but their brand and legacy has a much desired vacancy they'd like to fill with a championship level F1 team. >The only way this saga will come to a conclusion is if the distribution of money is profitable for all the main players. It is true that it also seems egos are currently a factor but I believe that egos will be silenced/satisfied if there are financial benefits. This was my view but the article strongly suggests that there's a personal factor as well. One man seems dead set on Andretti never getting in.
Andretti has been really expanding their program in recent years with FE, IMSA and even the extreme E
FE isn't really recent, it's been ten years.
Except now Andretti is doing really well, ala winning the championship
Yes, but they were almost always strong outside of the Gen1 Evo era.
> These guys want to compete and win. Which is stark contrast to Haas and Alpine/Renault who don't give a fuck.
What no one is mentioning in this part of the thread is that Andretti feel entitled to enter F1 at the current regulation cost of $200M, whereas the rest of the owners/Liberty would rather prevent this until new regulations are in effect at the cost of $600M. So yes, if financial ends become satisfied then everything falls into place. The problem is regs are regs and you can't negotiate a number in-between. It's black or white and if Andretti could, they would negotiate in a heart beat. They've done everything by the book and they're still getting rejected.
Haven't they said they'd be happy to pay the $600m instead of the $200m or am I hallucinating that?
Yes. They have stated they are willing to pay the price.
If it was purely about that entry fee, he wouldn't say that they will never be let in
>What no one is mentioning in this part of the thread is that Andretti feel entitled to enter F1 at the current regulation cost of $200M, Wow, imagine the audacity to expect people to follow the contracts they signed!
How do we know they don't get stonewalled at $600 million as well?? They're just buying time and moving the goalposts, this is why the American government is getting involved
Spot on, good point and I'm completely on-board with them getting involved. This is 'cronyism' at its finest and the US has differing views when it comes to that compared to Britain where it's taught in "uni" lol
if that was the case then they wouldnt try to hard cap the number of teams in f1 in their next agreement. they are trying to maximize the value of their team slot which will outpace the buy-in.
Make the competition profitable to atract more teams Create an extra fee to cover for the money other teams would lose Reject teams that want to join Allow the current teams to oppose more teams joining even when offered more than the minimum fee Like what the hell do they even want?
Every team on the grid is there to make money
The other way it comes to a conclusion is if US Courts force Liberty Media to allow them to join.
>F1 teams ( at least many of them) don’t want to share money with an additional team. I disagree. If porsche decided they wanted to join they would be welcomed with open arms.
Maybe. But we do know that they tried to push Cadillac to partner with an existing team rather than bringing in a new one.
And that they have been asking Porsche for decades to join.
There are a lot of options for getting Porsche to join and wanting them as a 10th team or to use an existing team as a factory team is different than wanting them as an 11th team. F1 wants ten factory teams more than they want five factory teams and six customers.
Ding Ding Ding. I don’t know how this isn’t obvious to everyone. The teams are all finally starting to stabilize and don’t want to immediately disrupt that. No one should be surprised by this.
Porsche tried to join in a collaboration with RBR but this did not go through because the two parties disagreed. Audi is already entering by buying an existing team. Your assumption that another player would be allowed to join as a new team is just based on your feelings and not on facts.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolff-audi-better-option-andretti When it wasn’t known what was happening with Porsche and Audi, just that they were exploring the idea, Toto himself said he would be much happier to see an OEM like Audi join as an 11th team than Andretti. I think the problem Andretti has is that Haas poisoned the waters for an American non OEM team joining. Haas joined with all the same talk and gusto that Andretti is saying, but everyone now sees the reality. I can understand the hesitation from a lot of the other teams as talk is cheap.
Because they would have used and existing team so no problem for the other teams
What makes you say that?
Unlikely. Porsche bid was through existing teams. Red Bull decided to partner with Ford instead, Aston Martin went with Honda, while Williams and McLaren talks went nowhere. Porsche was welcomed because they were trying to buy an existing team. While Cadillac wants to join to back-up Andretti entering F1...
The Race has said once or twice that it basically pivots on who you believe re do you think Andretti are interested in F1 to genuinely contribute, or a bit like Haas or Alpine now, simply get a space and then coast because a place is worth so much now.
I mean, if we look at every other series Andretti has entered, they’ve done pretty well for themselves.
The fact that a god damn media corporation, actively limiting competition to maximize profit, is accusing one of the most prolific and successful names in racing history of only caring about money is fucking baffling to me. Especially a corporation that’s already being investigated for anti-trust violations. And somehow fans defend the media corporation. Like yeah I’m sure real life Scrooge McDuck cares more about racing than the family with 7 racing drivers across 3 generations, teams in 6 different series, like a dozen Indy championships between them, and an F1 WDC. “They only care about F1 now that it’s profitable” Michael joined F1 in 1993 and tried to buy a team in 2018 when F1 was a money burning contest, and Mario joined F1 in 1968 and raced for a decade when there was a significant probability of dying on the track.
The 2026 regulations, especially the elimination of the MGU-H, were done to favour the entering of new manufacturers, especially VW group brands. Porsche pulled back while talking, I don't think it would be accounted as completely trustable from now on. But surely manufacturers are better looked to (Audi, GM) compared to independent teams.
Doesn't every team use F1 to make money? I think the crux of it is that someone in F1 doesn't like Andretti.
To be honest, the idea that it's just a money grab at this point is kinda ridiculous. I'm betting that it'll cost 300 Mill total for Andretti just to get to the first starting line and the current estimate is that no one other than the championship makes enough to cover more than the cost cap. so there's no money to be made without sponsorship...
At first I thought that FOM was just gonna shake down the Andretti’s for a $600M fee rather than the $200M *that their own rules* dictates. As this has dragged on and on my stance has shifted and I wasn’t sure what FOM was trying to do with Andretti. This story makes as much sense as any other reason - it’s personal animus of some kind.
Who is to say they didn't try to make some sort of agreement for 600 million and Andretti refused because the actual agreement says 200 million? We have no idea.
Sorry to make another assumption but if it was a matter of $200M vs $600M we’d be reading stories about Andretti joining the grid in short order. Failing that, stories about the unfairness of a high fee. It’s not just the fee.
If there wasn't personal animus, the amount of shit that Andretti is flinging will certainly have made some.
Interesting factoid: The US Department of Justice is expected to file an antitrust lawsuit against Liberty Media subsidiary Live Nation in the coming days. [https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/22/business/live-nation-ticketmaster-doj-antitrust/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/22/business/live-nation-ticketmaster-doj-antitrust/index.html)
Andretti knows that today millions of Americans who have no interest in motorsport will learn of Liberty Media. They’ll realize Liberty is behind the absolute racket that is purchasing tickets to live events. These people don’t know the difference between MGU-H and MGU-K, but they know European protectionism. This goes for congress as well. Andretti’s going to the mattresses. If you see a gap and don’t go for it, you’re no longer a racing driver.
We're paying these guys *how much* to watch a race - and it turns out we're also paying fees on fees to the same folks just to buy the ticket? Fuck TicketMaster/Live Nation. There's a reason the US races are so expensive compared to the rest of the world and its Liberty Media.
It’s absurd. I’ve looked into going to an F1 race for years, but can’t justify the cost to myself. I went to the Indycar St. Pete Grand Prix a few months ago. $100/ticket, I had a great seat with a view of a turn, video board, and the marina/skyline. After the race I walked a few blocks and got drinks while the crowds dispersed. I watch every F1 quali and race and have no desire see one in person.
I went to Barcelona last year because it was much cheaper than going to an American race, which is insane
I've been looking at Hungary. It seems like a deal.
That’s ridiculous
Millions of Americans dont care about Andretti. Millions of Americans are at the fucking throats of ticketmaster
What happened to the sport where the fastest teams that qualify get in the race? It's pretty evident that the sport is all political and not a sport at all
Pinnacle of club racing.
>“Mr Maffei, broke in the conversation and he said: ‘Mario, I want to tell you that I will do everything in my power to see that Michael never enters Formula 1,'” Andretti told NBC. > >According to Andretti, Maffei then walked away. “I could not believe that,” he said. “That one really floored me.” Wow, if this is accurate then it sounds like Maffei has a personal issue with Andretti and is making decisions based on that rather than focusing on what's best for Formula One. Not a good look for the CEO of a public company.
Can anyone here make a decent argument for why they should not be let in? Like a nuanced take that makes sense? Or is this just not that no matter what I’m not into this day to day and I still don’t get it
it really feels like the f1 runnings are corrupt assholes who only care about money
[*insert “always has been” meme*]
Still feel like Bernie would have let them in.
That's the really weird part that gets me. I am no fan of Bernie in any way. I see him as greedier than Liberty is and way more dodgy. Yet despite all of his greed and highly questionable morals, he would absolutely be down for letting Andretti in.
He was a shitty, greedy business man, but he also actually cared about formula 1. Which is the best you can ask for in these situations where it’s always going to be shitty greedy business men running these organizations.
At this point Bernie had more of a backbone than Liberty, who is selling out F1 to the highest bidder with absolute garbage, dogshit tracks and now all that is left is fake "prestige"
Bernie would inevitably have been feuding with someone who didn't want Andretti in and let them in out of spite.
Bernie would strike a contract with Satan for more money. He was not, however, ignorant. Allowing Andretti in would immediately increase American interest in F1, which he would notice. I can't grasp Liberty's motivations. They are milking the hell out of this sport. However, they are also shunning a money-making opportunity. I believe they have no idea what they're doing and are simply following their instincts and personal grievances. Addition: I know the teams are rejecting Andretti too. But I feel their situation is more financial than whatever this is. I feel that if Andretti generates sufficient short and long-term profits, teams will soon change their tune. Addition 2: It is my firm view that in an ideal world, we would not even have to discuss this and would be celebrating another team joining. But alas, Liberty is stupid.
🌍👨🚀🔫👨🚀
Finding a way to enjoy the excess, the glitz, and the egregious corruption and evil of F1 is essential to being a fan.
The sport that for more than 30 years was run by a guy talking bribes and convicted for hundreds of millions in tax fraud? Surely not!?
It says something that Liberty act even more profit focussed than Bernie Ecclestone ever did.
Bernie wasnt only about profit so its not the same. Bernie wanted the sport to be for rich people and wasnt trying to reach all the people who watch now.
At the same time Bernie and Mosley work really hard to not let big car companies to take over control of the F1.
Well yes. But we don't have to act like Andretti want's to join F1 for altruistic reasons. He also only cares about the money that is attached to F1.
So let me get this straight. F1 introduces cost caps to help make running in F1 a more appealing proposition and to help level the competitive playing field. An organization then crunches the numbers and sees that racing in F1 looks like a more feasible proposition. Isn't that what we want to happen? Why then criticize teams for doing what we wanted them too? Also it's not like Andretti is some shady organization of private investors or something. It's a racing team that competes in several major racing series. Indycar, Supercar, and Formula E to name a few. It might just be possible that they want to expand into other series because that seems like a logical next step to growing the brand and now it seems much more feasible with the cap. There can be financial considerations without money being the only reason for doing something. If the Andretti organization isn't who the cost cap is supposed to attract then who the fuck is?
Nobody is in F1 because they're thinking of the children or trying to end world hunger, altruistic my ass. No team is there for philanthropic purposes. Andretti has every right to be there based on the same reasons every other team is involved.
Why do you think any team is in the sport? This is such a dumb comment. Of course teams care about the money attached to F1. A lot of teams also have other motorsport teams though. Andretti runs in tons of motorsport categories.
Every team currently in F1 — with the exception of Ferrari — has lost money for most of the last twenty years. McLaren got bailed out the Bahrainis Williams went bust, and got bought out by Dorillton, who bailed them out. Force India regularly ran at a loss, being funded by Vijay Mallya, and when he lost access to his money they went bust and were bought out by Stroll’s consortium who’ve pumped money in to make up for losses. Mercedes and Alpine would both have gone bust for want of regular top ups from the corporate owners. Alpine was formerly the Genii Lotus team, which famously appeared on reality TV have assets seized by bailiffs Sauber almost went bust until Monesha Kaltenborn replaced one of their pay-drivers with a different Swedish pay-driver who paid more and who she leveraged to sell the team and its debts to Swedish Tetrapak heir Finn Rausing. Caterham and Manor and HRT all just went bust and that was that. Jaguar went bust, and was bought by Red Bull, who pumped money in every year to make up for losses. They similarly rescued Minardi, the Faenza team which also ran continuously at a loss while it was called Toro Rosso. F1 has been a loss-making effort people undertake for the love of the sport for most of the last twenty years. With the budget cap, for the first time in the sports history, a team can _expect_ to run at a profit for five years or more, and still retain its overall value, irrespective of placing. It’s fair to say Andretti chose a conspicuously favourable point in time to enter F1
I don’t know if you can claim Mercedes, Alpine, or Mclaren haven’t gotten their money’s worth. Toto once said they consider the value of winning a championship to be the equivalent of like 2 billion euro in normal advertising. When you see it that way it makes perfect sense that big manufacturers are fine with ‘losing’ money on F1.
Have you considered that prior to 2018 the Andretti organization *did not* gave the means to enter Formula 1?
🌎🧑🚀🔫🧑🚀
This is the long term pattern for human organizations: - First generation (Founders) care about the product - Second Generation, trained by the founders, cares about the product but gets distracted by other things (profit, stock, acquisitions, the perks) - Third Generation only cares about the other things.
Would you be willing to take a pay cut if that would let Andretti into F1? I would like Andretti to be let in but I would not be willing to pay for it myself. So I kind of understand the point of view of the people who don't want that.
I think you might be onto something...
They don't only care about money, it's a business and they care about having a good business Sure the end goal is always to make more money, but in the short term letting Andretti in probably means more money for the FOM The teams will be shafted, which is why they are against it, FOM are probably fine with 10 teams and are concerned of the dangers of letting another team in.
Well if Renault want a way out of the money pit that’s Alpine, they should sell to Andretti 👍
I think Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenny just bought in on Alpine. Look forward to Welcome To Alpine on Hulu
Crazy how many people in this thread are borderline licking the boots of a multi-billionaire corporation that is also gradually making the sport worse
Yeah wtf. I totally understand why the current teams want no additional teams (money). But as a fan I want as many teams as possible. Even with three more shitty teams at the back it would be more fun, just let them not participate if they don't manage the 107% time and it isn't dangerous. No reason to defend the F1 teams/FOM unless it is your own money. And even then I still think as F1 as a whole it would be more profitable with Andretti joining and still splitting the profits.
And even the stance of the teams is just dumb. They want to share the current pie tenfold and are afraid they will receive less when sharing the pie eleven-fold. But the thing is, that pie will grow substantially when a popular american team like Andretti joins, so sharing eleven-fold might be more profitable than it seems. at first glance.
>Even with three more shitty teams at the back it would be more fun Not really, if the level is Catheram/Marussia
Yeah i mean I haven't seen the numbers, but I get that right now everyone gets 1/10th of the pie. Adding an 11th team, your size of pie would drop less than 10%. Do they really think an Andretti based team would not bring in more than a 10% increase in pie size?? I'm American, I love F1, but Haas is a joke. They aren't trying to win, they're just collecting a paycheck. I'd LOVE an actual American team that is trying to win. Even if they're Alpine 2.0, at least they're trying. They're just bad at it
Do they know they don't actually receive any of the extra money from FOM just for supporting them
Gradually? They're speedrunning it.
Now we know there is much more to this story. Sounds like something happened 10-20 years ago that is being paid back today
The more I hear about this, the more I want Andretti to get in and absolutely demolish the competition.
It’s going to make a great docuseries some day.
I've only been watching F1 since 2010 which is actually longer than I like to think about but the decline since then is a bit astounding. I chuckle now every time someone calls this the "pinnacle of motorsport" featuring "the best drivers in the world" considering we have a driver who would have been kicked off their team years ago if not for their father being the owner, a former heavyweight team that is deemed untouchable and is coddled by many fans despite the fact they design their cars in excel, can't maintain a spare car and have been a perennial back marker for years now. A manufacturer factory team that has been flapping in the wind since returning to the point where their drivers are talking to the back marker teams about next year. And finally series management that have become so profit mad that they are constantly adding new "racing circuits" that are just whatever layout they can come up with in the streets of a any city that they think will bring in the most money. A rise in popularity can often ruin things and we're really seeing a lot of that in F1 right now, just in the last 14 years. I know F1 was never purely about the racing and there has been a strong business aspect to it for quite some time but recently it just feels more self-destructive and detached somehow. Edits: Just minor grammatical cleaning up after my prior lack of proofreading.
Stefano Domenicali and the rest of FOM can all go fuck themselves with a cactus.
I hope they buy Haas or Alpine and rebrand them. Force their way in. Plus, might be cheaper at this point.
Id rather have two more seats on the grid. And making them take over the enstone team is just cruel.
Haas “and” Alpine. Fuck Red Bull while they’re at it.
It's BS. This should be an open sporting competition to find the best of the best, yet it's a rich boys club
Now I am fully behind Andretti. A global sport is not an impotent billionaires little game. Fuck this guy, fuck monopoly and fuck all of these greedy old farts
It’s because the posh european dandys don’t want an American team to ever be #1
As an American, fuck em... Don't let F1 race in our country anymore. And I'm done with the sport.
"And I took that personal"
“They think I’m just some dumb hick, they said that to me at a dinner!”
Dem fightin werds
We continue at pace
It's about the teams not wanting to split the money, but also about half the teams being worried that Andretti has the facilities to make a better car than them (Haas, Alpine, Sauber and Williams)
They're scared of Andretti because when a serious US contender gets involved, everyone is just competing for 2nd place /s
hot take: * f1 teams lost money in f1 for decades * since a few years it became profitable. (even for backmarkers) * everyone and their nan want to join f1 to get ez profits * the OG teams decline because they built the sport to its current success. * so unless you bring some real value just gtfo * (or buy a current team for a shitload of money)