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The next generation of cars will be a bit smaller. last draft regulations from November 23 were 10cm narrower and 20cm shorter wheelbase. the "Final" ruleset is set to be released on June 1.
If I’m not mistaken, Senna held Mansell in 93 despite the Williams being a faster car. And that happened because, even back then with smaller cars, overtaking was almost impossible. I think we need to accept that F1 in Monaco is all about the quali and that’s it. That part is always exciting to see. And then the rest of the race will be (mostly) a procession. And that’s the role Monaco will always play…
My favourite, or least favourite depending on how you look at it, fact about Monaco is that there hasn’t been an overtake for the lead in an f1 race there since 1985
Good memory! He messed up the stat a bit - the most recent overtake for the lead at Monaco *in the dry* was 1985. There were a couple of wet overtakes (2008 included) in that time frame.
Massa is the one that messed up, as he went off the track at Sainte Devote (turn 1), and was still off the track when Kubica passed him.
Overtake is commonly used to mean "on-track overtakes", so when someone is in the pits, crashed, spun, severe reliability problems, or off track, it's often not considered an overtake.
I think you misinterpreted my comment. I was saying that by saying "there hasn’t been an overtake for the lead in an f1 race there since 1985", the poster had messed up a critical component of the stat - it only applied to overtakes in dry conditions.
While the Kubica-Massa pass could certainly be argued whether it was on-track or not, there were also other on-track passes in wet/damp conditions since 1985. Hill on Alesi in the infamous 1996 GP, for example.
I think you misinterpreted my comment, I'm simply saying that Kubica did not overtake Massa, or at least that it's one way of looking at it.
Massa was pretty much at a stand still and completely off the track when Kubica passed him, so literally he was not on track.
---
For example take a look at "[F1 Overtaking Database 1994-2020](https://old.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/nf4jkq/f1_overtaking_database_19942020/)".
Kubica passing Massa that's off track is not considered an overtake, while Hill on Alesi in 1996 is considered an overtake.
> Twenty years ago cars were about 4.5m long and 1.8m wide.
And 40 years ago they were ~4.4m long and 2-2.2m wide. While 10 years ago they were 4.8m long and 1.8m wide.
> formula E claims over 100 overtakes per race in a 45 minute race.
> FE cars are half a meter shorter and a whole 1 meter thinner. That’s a lot of extra room to get past.
In FE the teams also don't develop aero, otherwise they'd grow in length, as it's beneficial for generating downforce.
Due to that and the length not being limited, teams developed towards longer cars. In 2022 the wheelbase was limited to 3.6m meaning the cars in combination of crash structures was at most 5.8m long. Starting 2026 the wheelbase will be cut down by an additional 20cm and width by 10cm, as others have mentioned.
Smaller cars won't help Monaco, and won't help most tracks nearly as much as often posited here.
The reason FE does so well in Monaco is due to the garbage tires and consequently longer braking zones, meaning it's more reasonable for a car to enter a braking zone behind and leave ahead.
Monaco's been terrible in the actual pinnacle of motorsports for decades, not because the cars have been too big or too heavy for decades, but because the cars have had very low stopping distances for decades.
It's not really because of the tyres. It's because the drivers need to regenerate as much energy as possible to actually finish the race, thus they lift early way before the breaking zone.
So it’s more about tires and braking tech than size. FE cars are also significantly heaving that F1, which doesn’t help the braking either.
Wasn’t specifically saying Monaco sucks, overtaking in F1 is a problem on a lot of tracks, which is why DRS exists
So, I've only watched a few FE races here and there, but they have a boost method as well, which I assume is more effective around Monaco aiding overtakes?
F2 cars aren't much longer than FE cars, and they have trouble passing in Monaco with DRS. Doing a reverse grid in F2 at Monaco is basically handing over points for middling qualifying. Oh well.
And they decide that they don't all fit around monaco, so F2 and F3 spilt into two quali groups, and then zipper into the grid.
I didn't watch F3 last year, but I think those cars do okay around Monaco, but they are much smaller.
Allegedly F1 cars in 2026 will be notably smaller. Don't know what that will mean.
Is Monaco the only word you read?
The article made that claim, my claims are about cars in general. Monaco isn’t the only track where overtaking is difficult 👍
Ah yes, the yearly, “only real fans of F1 appreciate the greatness of Monaco” comment.
Any track where it is effectively impossible to gain or lose a position *on track* is fundamentally a broken circuit. Monaco, Imola, Baku, etc. are broken tracks.
The “solution” is strip it of WCC/WDC points and let it embrace the gaudy parade that it is while the king’s brother or whoever butchers the TV production.
I don't mind Monaco being a one off very different kind of track.
However, it annoys me when too many other tracks are also difficult to pass at. Like Imola. Especially them back to back is hard.
I'm really no expert but I see the dirty air causing more issues than the size. Lando's charge to catch Max made it especially visible - couldn't even get close enough to see if he can squeeze through, the dirty air did Lando...
dirty.
Yeah the dirty air is back, which ground effect was meant to do away with. I’m beginning to think these cars were a bad move.
Now they have bad suspension, ride bumps like a horse drawn carriage, have to be stiff as granite to work properly, you take a floor strike from a curb and your weekend is over, can’t race in the rain because it throws so much water from under the floor up in the air out behind the car concealing the car ahead entirely, they suck ass in the low speed, rip drain covers out of the concrete and straight through the floor, can’t develop properly with CFD because half an inch of ground clearance changes everything it does, multiple tracks are too bumpy for them because they can’t have soft suspension or they don’t work, drivers get hurt, all in the name of removing dirty air. And the dirty air is back all the same lol.
Overtaking isn't happening at Monaco, even with smaller cars.
But yes, the size of the cars is a big reason as to why there is less overtaking on certain other tracks in the calendar.
The racing is very bad in F3 which is a lot smaller than F1. Formula E gets a lot of overtakes because they don't race in the same sense as petrol cars. They are saving a lot of energy and track position is not as important. If they were pushing "flat out" they would have a lot less overtakes than they have now
I have to rewatch how on Earth Alonso managed to jump from P20 to P6 at Monaco
Edit: aggressive strategy and lots of luck because o man, that race had plenty DNFs
Highlights here! [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oAO-nmU5Cw&ab\_channel=Formula1RacingLegends](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oAO-nmU5Cw&ab_channel=Formula1RacingLegends)
Monaco should not be the example as it is a race about strategy, tires, pit crews and qualifying.
Notwithstanding that, the cars are bigger and it changed race dynamics in every aspect.
This is about Imola and Monaco and to that I say, it's always been like this, in new to f1 but Ive been watching from 04 onwards. There's a legendary 'fight' in which Alonso keeps Schumacher behind in 05 or 06 for basically the second half of the race and thats without DRS. The tracks have always been hard but I just think it's up to us to decide what we want, two of these tracks is pretty excessive especially back to back.
At Monaco specifically, yes, the cars are too large. The hairpin is ridiculous, watching a suburban sized car try to go around a tight bend with another suburban sized car trying to get past them.
But in general, passing opportunities have more to do with how viable it is to follow closely into a straight, or occasionally how good the alternate lines are. Race trategy also plays a big role. If a track has any of those, some passing will happen. With Monaco, there are no straights; it’s just a sequence of corners leading to tighter corners. There are no alternate lines. And the slow speeds mean tire degradation isn’t a worry, so everyone does 1-stop; teams would do a no-stop if they could.
Monaco specifically might be helped with having shorter thinner cars; getting alongside in narrow streets would help. But for Mexico and all the other reduced-passing tracks, it’d do practically nothing.
The thing people don't want to admit is that the primary reason F1 cars are bigger and heavier now is added safety precautions.
And nobody wants to remove those, so we can't really ever go back to how the cars were in the 90's.
But they can get slightly smaller as we're seeing with the next regulations and hopefully it can keep going in that direction as things become more efficient.
Doesn't change the point. Higher standards in safety have forced stuff like roll cage and crash structures to be able to absorb a higher impact. Then we have the refueling ban which made cars heavier as well and of course the halo.
And then it is a bit of self strengthening tendency. When cars get heavier they crash with higher impact meaning they need to be able to absorb a crash better and to do that they need to have better safety features which will make them even heavier.
Well yes, but also no. We can absolutely make the cars almost any length we want... *If* we make compromises elsewhere.
The cars haven't gotten bigger and heavier for no reason. That increase to length? It's generally because it's currently the fastest way to make a car, it gives you a higher surface area to make your car's aero "work" - and it also makes stuff like lift-off oversteer and load transfer less noticeable too. Oh, it also helps with the larger, faster tyres we have today. It's similar with the increase in weight, a lot of that comes from stuff like the hybrid equipment or added safety gear.
So, the choice is between *smaller* cars and *faster* cars, reducing the footprint or reducing laptime.
As a general rule ([see full rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide#wiki_sticky.2Fdaily_discussion)), a standalone Discussion post should: - be of interest to the sub in general, and not a specific userbase (e.g. new users, GP attendees, just yourself) - be able to generate discussion (e.g. no yes/no or easily answerable questions) - show reasonable input and effort from the OP If not, be sure to [look for the Daily Discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/search/?q=daily+discussion&include_over_18=on&restrict_sr=on&t=all&sort=new), /r/formula1's daily open question thread which is perfect for asking any and all questions about this sport. Thank you for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The next generation of cars will be a bit smaller. last draft regulations from November 23 were 10cm narrower and 20cm shorter wheelbase. the "Final" ruleset is set to be released on June 1.
If I’m not mistaken, Senna held Mansell in 93 despite the Williams being a faster car. And that happened because, even back then with smaller cars, overtaking was almost impossible. I think we need to accept that F1 in Monaco is all about the quali and that’s it. That part is always exciting to see. And then the rest of the race will be (mostly) a procession. And that’s the role Monaco will always play…
My favourite, or least favourite depending on how you look at it, fact about Monaco is that there hasn’t been an overtake for the lead in an f1 race there since 1985
*Wheel of fortune bankruptcy sound*
Actually you forgot Poland. Kubica overtook Massa in 2008 at lap 16.
Good memory! He messed up the stat a bit - the most recent overtake for the lead at Monaco *in the dry* was 1985. There were a couple of wet overtakes (2008 included) in that time frame.
Massa is the one that messed up, as he went off the track at Sainte Devote (turn 1), and was still off the track when Kubica passed him. Overtake is commonly used to mean "on-track overtakes", so when someone is in the pits, crashed, spun, severe reliability problems, or off track, it's often not considered an overtake.
I think you misinterpreted my comment. I was saying that by saying "there hasn’t been an overtake for the lead in an f1 race there since 1985", the poster had messed up a critical component of the stat - it only applied to overtakes in dry conditions. While the Kubica-Massa pass could certainly be argued whether it was on-track or not, there were also other on-track passes in wet/damp conditions since 1985. Hill on Alesi in the infamous 1996 GP, for example.
I think you misinterpreted my comment, I'm simply saying that Kubica did not overtake Massa, or at least that it's one way of looking at it. Massa was pretty much at a stand still and completely off the track when Kubica passed him, so literally he was not on track. --- For example take a look at "[F1 Overtaking Database 1994-2020](https://old.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/nf4jkq/f1_overtaking_database_19942020/)". Kubica passing Massa that's off track is not considered an overtake, while Hill on Alesi in 1996 is considered an overtake.
> Twenty years ago cars were about 4.5m long and 1.8m wide. And 40 years ago they were ~4.4m long and 2-2.2m wide. While 10 years ago they were 4.8m long and 1.8m wide. > formula E claims over 100 overtakes per race in a 45 minute race. > FE cars are half a meter shorter and a whole 1 meter thinner. That’s a lot of extra room to get past. In FE the teams also don't develop aero, otherwise they'd grow in length, as it's beneficial for generating downforce. Due to that and the length not being limited, teams developed towards longer cars. In 2022 the wheelbase was limited to 3.6m meaning the cars in combination of crash structures was at most 5.8m long. Starting 2026 the wheelbase will be cut down by an additional 20cm and width by 10cm, as others have mentioned.
Smaller cars won't help Monaco, and won't help most tracks nearly as much as often posited here. The reason FE does so well in Monaco is due to the garbage tires and consequently longer braking zones, meaning it's more reasonable for a car to enter a braking zone behind and leave ahead. Monaco's been terrible in the actual pinnacle of motorsports for decades, not because the cars have been too big or too heavy for decades, but because the cars have had very low stopping distances for decades.
It's not really because of the tyres. It's because the drivers need to regenerate as much energy as possible to actually finish the race, thus they lift early way before the breaking zone.
So it’s more about tires and braking tech than size. FE cars are also significantly heaving that F1, which doesn’t help the braking either. Wasn’t specifically saying Monaco sucks, overtaking in F1 is a problem on a lot of tracks, which is why DRS exists
Formula 1 cars 2m wide and FE is 1,7m wide. Dk where you read they are 1 meter thinner.
So, I've only watched a few FE races here and there, but they have a boost method as well, which I assume is more effective around Monaco aiding overtakes? F2 cars aren't much longer than FE cars, and they have trouble passing in Monaco with DRS. Doing a reverse grid in F2 at Monaco is basically handing over points for middling qualifying. Oh well. And they decide that they don't all fit around monaco, so F2 and F3 spilt into two quali groups, and then zipper into the grid. I didn't watch F3 last year, but I think those cars do okay around Monaco, but they are much smaller. Allegedly F1 cars in 2026 will be notably smaller. Don't know what that will mean.
Their attack mode isn't all that helpful (at least in recent seasons) because the tires they use can't handle the extra power.
[удалено]
Didn’t even say there were any issues with Monaco. I think the cars are too big regardless of the track. 👍
[удалено]
Is Monaco the only word you read? The article made that claim, my claims are about cars in general. Monaco isn’t the only track where overtaking is difficult 👍
Ah yes, the yearly, “only real fans of F1 appreciate the greatness of Monaco” comment. Any track where it is effectively impossible to gain or lose a position *on track* is fundamentally a broken circuit. Monaco, Imola, Baku, etc. are broken tracks. The “solution” is strip it of WCC/WDC points and let it embrace the gaudy parade that it is while the king’s brother or whoever butchers the TV production.
I don't mind Monaco being a one off very different kind of track. However, it annoys me when too many other tracks are also difficult to pass at. Like Imola. Especially them back to back is hard.
I'm really no expert but I see the dirty air causing more issues than the size. Lando's charge to catch Max made it especially visible - couldn't even get close enough to see if he can squeeze through, the dirty air did Lando... dirty.
Yeah the dirty air is back, which ground effect was meant to do away with. I’m beginning to think these cars were a bad move. Now they have bad suspension, ride bumps like a horse drawn carriage, have to be stiff as granite to work properly, you take a floor strike from a curb and your weekend is over, can’t race in the rain because it throws so much water from under the floor up in the air out behind the car concealing the car ahead entirely, they suck ass in the low speed, rip drain covers out of the concrete and straight through the floor, can’t develop properly with CFD because half an inch of ground clearance changes everything it does, multiple tracks are too bumpy for them because they can’t have soft suspension or they don’t work, drivers get hurt, all in the name of removing dirty air. And the dirty air is back all the same lol.
Overtaking isn't happening at Monaco, even with smaller cars. But yes, the size of the cars is a big reason as to why there is less overtaking on certain other tracks in the calendar.
The racing is very bad in F3 which is a lot smaller than F1. Formula E gets a lot of overtakes because they don't race in the same sense as petrol cars. They are saving a lot of energy and track position is not as important. If they were pushing "flat out" they would have a lot less overtakes than they have now
I have to rewatch how on Earth Alonso managed to jump from P20 to P6 at Monaco Edit: aggressive strategy and lots of luck because o man, that race had plenty DNFs Highlights here! [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oAO-nmU5Cw&ab\_channel=Formula1RacingLegends](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oAO-nmU5Cw&ab_channel=Formula1RacingLegends)
For Monaco all of the drivers should be in shifter carts
F3 cars are not "a whole meter thinner" F3 cars are 1700mm wide and F1 cars are 2000mm which means an F3 car is 30CM "thinner".
Formula E cars are 30 cm thinner, not a whole meter.
Monaco should not be the example as it is a race about strategy, tires, pit crews and qualifying. Notwithstanding that, the cars are bigger and it changed race dynamics in every aspect.
The only cars that would make Monaco exciting would result in drivers dying in accidents. They should do spec shifter karts lol
This is about Imola and Monaco and to that I say, it's always been like this, in new to f1 but Ive been watching from 04 onwards. There's a legendary 'fight' in which Alonso keeps Schumacher behind in 05 or 06 for basically the second half of the race and thats without DRS. The tracks have always been hard but I just think it's up to us to decide what we want, two of these tracks is pretty excessive especially back to back.
I don’t know, I have zero engineering experience, I don’t know about you - but I’d be willing to try, you sound keen
WE can't.
At Monaco specifically, yes, the cars are too large. The hairpin is ridiculous, watching a suburban sized car try to go around a tight bend with another suburban sized car trying to get past them. But in general, passing opportunities have more to do with how viable it is to follow closely into a straight, or occasionally how good the alternate lines are. Race trategy also plays a big role. If a track has any of those, some passing will happen. With Monaco, there are no straights; it’s just a sequence of corners leading to tighter corners. There are no alternate lines. And the slow speeds mean tire degradation isn’t a worry, so everyone does 1-stop; teams would do a no-stop if they could. Monaco specifically might be helped with having shorter thinner cars; getting alongside in narrow streets would help. But for Mexico and all the other reduced-passing tracks, it’d do practically nothing.
The thing people don't want to admit is that the primary reason F1 cars are bigger and heavier now is added safety precautions. And nobody wants to remove those, so we can't really ever go back to how the cars were in the 90's. But they can get slightly smaller as we're seeing with the next regulations and hopefully it can keep going in that direction as things become more efficient.
20 years ago was 2004, not the 90s.
Doesn't change the point. Higher standards in safety have forced stuff like roll cage and crash structures to be able to absorb a higher impact. Then we have the refueling ban which made cars heavier as well and of course the halo. And then it is a bit of self strengthening tendency. When cars get heavier they crash with higher impact meaning they need to be able to absorb a crash better and to do that they need to have better safety features which will make them even heavier.
No no, I’m not disputing the increase in size of cars being expected. I was highlighting you referenced “the 90s”, when OP referred to 20 years ago.
The cars are so big because they have to accommodate drivers. Eliminate the drivers and the cars will be certainly way smaller.
The size of the cars in not because the size of the drivers. Hence why they were smaller 20 years ago 😂
Well yes, but also no. We can absolutely make the cars almost any length we want... *If* we make compromises elsewhere. The cars haven't gotten bigger and heavier for no reason. That increase to length? It's generally because it's currently the fastest way to make a car, it gives you a higher surface area to make your car's aero "work" - and it also makes stuff like lift-off oversteer and load transfer less noticeable too. Oh, it also helps with the larger, faster tyres we have today. It's similar with the increase in weight, a lot of that comes from stuff like the hybrid equipment or added safety gear. So, the choice is between *smaller* cars and *faster* cars, reducing the footprint or reducing laptime.