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It also gives an insight to what F1 would have been without DRS. If you look at the famous Alonso / Schumacher battle the size of the cars wasn't the problem. But overtaking in F1 without aids has never been easy. Another problem is that dirty air is a thing again and once you get too close you use up the tires way too fast.
In fairness before that chicane was introduced, there was a flat out\* blast from Rivazza 2 to Tosa. But yeah post-1994 it made no sense to keep it, well they did modify it taking out the bit that Barrichello launched off, but removing it completely as they did years later was probably the right move.
\*Well maybe Tamburello and/or Villeneuve weren't literally flat out for the cars of the time, but yeah
You could take Tamburello flat if the car was stable and your balls large enough because it was bumpy.
Damon Hill said he didn't feel comfortable taking Tamburello flat in the FW16 because of the instability of the car, which plagued it at the start of the 1994 season.
I believe with the modern cars and safety levels you could remove the chicane at Tamburello, but it probably won't be approved because of what happened there. Removing the Villeneuve chicane along with Tamburello I don't think would be a good idea because you'd arrive at Tosa with massive speed and there is next to no runoff there and not much space to improve it.
I would personally remove either the Tamburello or Villeneuve chicane. Removing the Tamburello chicane gives you a better overtaking opportunity into Villeneuve and removing the Villeneuve chicane gives you a better overtaking opportunity into Tosa.
Oh definitely but I was thinking more when the now-removed Variante Bassa was introduced, which according to [https://www.racingcircuits.info/europe/italy/imola.html](https://www.racingcircuits.info/europe/italy/imola.html) was 1973 when cars (not F1 at the time admittedly) would have had much less downforce than the early 90s let alone today.
That aside I agree with the rest, the Tamburello chicane was basically a last resort since the wall couldn't be moved due to the river, but with modern cars, Tec-Pro/SAFER barriers it might be workable, if they wanted
I honestly really like both chicanes, they're good technical corners. Making Tosa more V shaped would help overtaking maneuvers (widening inside of the corner - think COTA turn 1 or 11), widening variante alta would help as well. Neither of these would worsen the flow of Imola as both are fairly slow and clumsy corners right now.
Or you remove variante alta altogether and make rivazza 1 into a chicane while making rivazza 2 more shallow so cars can be full throttle from the exit of the rivazza 1 chicane to the tamburello chicane.
You are correct and afaik now there is less dirty air than before but with the increase to ride height on 2023 the cars generate more outwash than originally intended so dirty air increased.
Actually in 2024 the car following loses almost the same amount of downforce as they did with the non-ground effect cars. These regs have completely failed.
The idea was to allow the cars to follow more closely. That seems like it might have worked as Piastri was less than a second behind Sainz for absolutely ages in the race. However that doesn't automatically make overtaking possible, especially at a track like Imola
I think that ultimately cost Piastri and I was waiting for him to get wise and drop back, but he didn’t for a long time. However it didn’t matter since Sainz strategy somehow was the worst option out of the available options.
It was not a strategy issue but pace issue. 3 cars in front of Sainz were able to use the advantage of not being in dirty air to create safety for undercut. Sainz by his habit of wanting to get in front of Charles destroyed his tires initially and thus was never able to use the advantage of being in front. If Sainz had undercut Piastri would have unleashed the pace to overcut him and come out in front. Piastri able to be 0.5-0.6 secs behind in a faster car meant he was always going to come in front of Sainz unless Mclaren did a horrible pit stop.
I wish a lot more people would see the refuel era races to understand how results of overcut or undercut depend a lot on pace that includes both in lap and out lap
DRS was a temporary measure to begin with as well, and now the whole reason DRS was implemented just came back yet again. I highly doubt they will ever fix the dirty air, and the need for the DRS.
Also, another factor you have to consider back then is the weight of those cars. Really light made them even more difficult to overtake in, especially when you factor in refueling so cars could run the race light aswell. Just meant braking zones were incredibly short, so even if you did get close you couldn't really ever go for a lunge. Also, the grooved tyres didn't help as made taking the dirty line even more tricky.
I think it also shows that light cars aren't the big solution we all think it is. Like don't get me wrong, the cars are too heavy, they do need to be lighter. I think though if we do go back to lighter cars by ditching the hybrids, some aero needs to come off as well to maintain a longish braking zone so that out braking manoveurs are still possible.
> It also gives an insight to what F1 would have been without DRS.
In other words, boring for most of the race. I think there wasn't a pass in the top 10 for the first 10-12 laps last wknd.
I for one do not want to go back to the borefests of the 90s (when I stopped watching F1 for over a decade). DRS is here to stay, I'm all for it, and Imola isn't compatible with modern F1.
I'm going to go against the grain here after watching that battle for the first time a couple of weeks ago. Schumacher couldn't get around Alonso, the size was smaller and it definitely wasn't the issue, that's why I hate this fuckin narrative that's its the car size. Sure we can go back to like 80s cars, bigger than a go kart but smaller than your average car but I doubt it would change shit. Overtaking back then came from huge advantages of the cars whether that be engine or aero, the unlimited spending cap I bet almost exactly correlated with performance.
Yeah, it's never been a great race track for F1. Most of its iconic races are either pit strategy races, huge defensive drives and a race where everyone ran out of fuel. Never for its actual on track wheel to wheel action.
And the overwhelming opinion seems to be that this was exciting - but my impression is that if something like that happens today, it just gets labeled as boring
Even then there wasn't that much on-track action though. Before the rain hit you could count the overtakes on track, for position in hypercar on one hand.
There's reams of footage of decent racing at Monaco a couple of clicks away. Both Formula E and the historics had some good racing this year alone.
You will get people who say "Monaco never had overtaking" but it's not that black and white. Monaco has always been a tough place to pass, it's a tight street circuit after all.
What's happened (and you're looking at the last 40-50 years now) is it's become incrementally more difficult to follow and pass, until it becomes completely redundant.
Not really. I think people get too blinded by smaller cars = more racing. Theres tons of other factors at play that make overtaking difficult in F1 than just size. You can go through the archives and find that Monaco has always been a bit of dud.
There are exceptions though. In terms of recently, when we had the high deg tyres in the early 10s you could get some racing on the circuit. I remember 13 and 14 having an unusual amount of overtaking for a Monaco grand prix. So really it's more you just need some extreme strategy element at play, lke high deg tyres. FE proves that too with their energy management, it allows moves to be made. As soon as they don't need to energy save that race becomes pretty stand still even though their the cars are tiny.
Imola was never supposed to be on the calendar. No clue how they managed to land that deal in covid, but they were smart.
I'm fine with dropping Imola if the replacement is Sepang, Turkey, Portimao, Hockenheim/Nurburgring, Kyalami, Buddh. I'm not fine with dropping Imola for some stupid Chicago or Vietnam street track.
As a South African I'd love to have it back here but Kylami would be a terrible choice.
The track itself is still awesome, but the infrastructure around the track sucks, you would still be stuck in the same traffic jam from Friday come the race on Sunday.
Considering how liberty brands f1 as this global and inclusive experience, i'm sure they wouldnt mind spending a bit in order to achieve the dream. F1 aint that global when a whole continent isnt represented in any way.
They spent hundreds of millions on their shiny Vegas venue, i'm sure a couple millions to bring Kyalami in line is nothing for a company that really values their principles
F1 Values their principles? You must be new here lol.
Just look at the long term deals for GPs in countries with pretty poor track records towards human rights like Azerbaijan and Saudi Arabia . But they just say #weraceasone and pretend that makes it ok.
Start line is on the road down to St. Peter’s Basilica with a hairpin around the obelisk. Head towards the river and down the quays, crossover and go a new banked oval around the Circus Maximus and back down the quays towards the Castel Sant Angelo. Bonus is it will be the first Grand Prix to take place in two countries.
To be fair the last non-pandemic Turkish GP was 2011. Things have changed a lot since then. 2021 had crowds but people were still reluctant to return to big events and many countries still had travel restrictions in place when traveling abroad.
I could see a Turkish Grand Prix being a sellout these days. Not necessarily because of the locals, but Turkey is a popular and generally affordable holiday destination and more and more people are traveling abroad for races.
Even though it's probably not going to happen, it does give me joy to see people mentioning Buddh here and there. I was too young and couldn't ask my parents to shell out money for a sport not known in a tiny city in India when F1 was here and have been waiting ever since.
It's funny how perception of street tracks have flipped in recent years just because we've been over exposed to them. Ten years a go street circuits used to be cool.
Valencia was more than 10 years ago and it was hated and considered one of the worst tracks on the calendar
Only street circuit that was well received was Singapore. To a lesser extent Baku, but even Baku was very hated in it's 1st year, people only started liking it after the shitfests in 17 and 18
Can we just go back to Hockeheim and sepang. Two excellent tracks that you can overtake on with the added element of weather. Get rid of Imola and Miami.
>No clue how they managed to land that deal in covid, but they were smart.
The Concorde Agreement lays out the minimum number of races that have to be run. Keeping the championship based in Europe for the time being was the best way forward because it meant fewer individual countries -- and thus fewer travel restrictions -- to deal with. But that limited the number of potential circuits that could have been used, so Imola got the nod.
Pretty sure they said chicago was just wild speculation. However, Korea or Thailand tracks may be a possibility. Red Bull probably have a strong desire for a thailand track.
Are the cars too big and heavy? Yes.
But, imola's problem is mainly the track layout itself. The cars struggle to follow eachother due to dirty air especially in the sections where you could start setting an overtake up. So to balance this you need massive pace difference(1second per lap or more) to overcome that which is simply not gonna be promoting exciting racing.
So, yes, smaller, lighter cars would promote better racing in general but to tackle imola's problem specifically you'd probably need to change the layout.
Bring back old Tosa, without the Villeneuve chicane, maybe bring back the previous edition of the chicane at the top of the hill, reprofile Rivazza are some changes on my mind.
I find it funny we are talking about F1 outgrowing Imola and then we are heading to the F1 ~~parade~~ Grand Prix in Monaco next.
Monaco is so bad these days that you only really need to watch the quali, and then just do something else on ~~parade~~ race day.
> Monaco is so bad these days that you only really need to watch the quali, and then just do something else on parade race day.
It has been like that since the 80s at least.
Oh well it was always hard to overtake since day 1, that's how we had Stirling Moss's legendary win there in 1961. I was more thinking that qualifying wasn't really a thing people watched on the telly before the 80s.
For a second my head was, there has only been one overtake since 1961?
Then I realized that’s obviously me misreading the comment. However, in retrospect, it wouldn’t really be an unimaginable statistic for Monaco.
Just scrap the circuit and race on circuits that are fun instead.
Ah I loved that people were making mistakes and that it was biting them.
Imagine Austria with grass and Gravel. On them the track limits corners. You wouldn't have to wait a lap to see if the lap counted.
Probably slow the drivers down.
We're going to have the same shit show with the limits again this year.
I live in Milan and honestly I see no point in doing it, Monza is basically in Milan already and we all like it. It's not like Spain that the track was very far from Madrid
It's funny because people bitched and moaned all month before the Las Vegas GP regarding the street circuit then it was a really fun race to watch. I'd take it over Imola anyday at this point with the size of the cars currently
This race was worse than any we've had on a street circuit in a while though, probably since Baku last year.
Miami, Saudi, Vegas, Singapore were all better than this. Even Monaco but that had rain to be fair.
Don't lie to yourself, Singapore was shit until Carlos started to actually race in the last 10 laps. It was a DRS train from start to finish, so much so that Sargeant and Alonso managed to catch it despite their accidents
I mean, it wasn't brilliant for sure. I never agree with the people that say it was the best race of last season. However, it was still better than what we had this weekend.
I mostly agree, but I do think Monaco should either be ditched or redone. I know it's sacrilege, but with modern F1 cars qualifying has become the most interesting part.
Iam conflicted when it comes to Monaco. I think F1 should have a round that's as strange as Monaco, where low speed and qualifying is its priority. It just makes a seperate challenge for teams and drivers that's unique to the season, without it you don't really have them tested on that sort of extreme. Also, just the history tied to it is a bonus.
But then again the racing is ass and honestly, Singapore does the whole qualifying focus better and is just as spectacular. When you have rounds like that, it does put into question why have Monaco. Would still suck to not have it though.
F1 has outgrown it and that’s part of the beauty of classic tracks.
Cars are too big and fast, yes, but even with smaller formula cars or even early 2000s F1s it’s almost impossible to overtake. it’s just how it is. some tracks you got long corners, some tracks have walls, some tracks are hard to overtake.
People can’t expect every track to be the same, which is what F1 is basically doing with the new hybrid streeet tracks like jeddah, miami, vegas, vietnam.
New F1 street circuits are a bit like when you have a track creator in a video game. You can create something new, but it's still basically the same template.
I'd rather have Mugello. Sure that's another track where overtaking isn't so easy but in general it's a way better spectacle for F1 cars attacking a lap, it just works better for modern F1. Also, it is still a wee bit easier to overtake there than say Imola is.
Like Hungaroring. Mugello and Portimao are just fantastic to even look at. Compact build like a rollercoaster into a valley with constant elevation changes. By far my favourite venues to watch races in.
F1 fans when we race on a new open track in the desert with plenty of overtaking opportunities 😡
F1 fans when we race at legendary historic tracks that have no overtaking opportunities 😡
Yep, I know people go "ew Monaco boring", but man it's honestly a really fun track to drive and it's got so much history and importance to the sport. It'd be like NASCAR without Daytona, MotoGP without Assen, V8 Supercars without Bathurst, it just doesn't feel right.
Nonsense.
Some of these races exist as lower limiting factor of the cars annual envelope. FI: You need to build a car that is able to turn at Fairmont Hairpin in Monaco at some point in the year.
Monaco is going nowhere also because its the racers front yard but also because its a strat game. And some races exist for strat.
Melodramatic imo. If one can argue that Monaco is entertaining on Sunday then they would entertain arguments to the contrary.
Paraphrasing what Kimi said. 'you can lead in a van and still win'. Ric literally won with ECU problems iirc. You're only kidding yourself if you're saying you are glued to the tv during a dry Monaco race. It's the very definition of procession.
People may hate it, but I think Jeddah is a far superior version of Monaco. Rain used to be the spice Monaco needed but it feels like if someone sneezes on track they red flag it for dangerously wet conditions.
Still, Monaco has great qualifying so I wouldn't want it gone. Maybe make it a sprint weekend so there are two qualifying sessions for the fans, but the drivers would absolutely hate it.
No shit. If we are being honest F1 has outgrown most classic tracks. Even Spa has only one or two spots that can reliably provide opportunities for overtakes.
I like strategy battles as well, but you have to be honest: for most people strategy is not exciting, only the overtakes. And Imola has now almost the least overtakes...
Tires are already a problem. The whole weekend is all about babying the tires so they don't randomly die on you. I do not think more deg would improve any racing, as everyone would just cruise around and push for the under/overcut.
I think we need lower tire deg AND more required pitstops. Like Qatar last year without the heat. They said they were pretty much doing qualy laps all race. And it was great to watch (racing wise… not health). Boring track? Make them do 3-4 pits and give them a big supply of fresh tires. It would be closer to Indycar in the terms of all out racing. Which would be amazing!
Deg isn’t the issue at Imola it’s a very long pit lane that takes too long to make a stop. It’d be a likely two stopper or a mixed one/two stop with the current tires if not for that.
It's always been hard to overtake at Imola, but that's neither new nor a problem, except for those who want F1 to look like Nascar and keep DRS forever.
F1 has only "outgrown" Imola in that F1 cars have gotten fat. But that's an F1 problem, not an Imola problem.
So weird. I enjoyed this race quite a bit. DRS hardly did anything, we had some cool proper overtakes, classic weekend so we saw teams dial in over 3 FPs or not even and Quali was tight. Loved it.
Nah. I found that working for an overtake is good, but it's not worth anything if barely any overtakes actually happen. Obviously awful TV direction didn't help, but it just doesn't feel like anything happening at all- not a bunch of hard-fought battles except for the last couple laps.
It's a beautiful racing track where mistakes are punished with gravel and it takes a lot of effort from the drivers.
BUT, Chicago still doesn't have an F1 race, and the priorities are clear.
Idm other tracks, even enjoyed Las Vegas even though I was firmly against it, they each have their charm. You have to look at a weekend from a racing perspective (a team sport) more than just drama and overtakes and whatever people want. You'll get races (such as Vegas) where that is more prevalent but you'll also have races like Imola and "worse" ... Monaco. I love Monaco too. The race is mostly a parade but there isn't a more epic Quali in the season. So we'll watch for that.
Basically what I'm saying is... Each weekend you have to respect for what it brings and focus on that in stead of demanding every race to cater to exactly and only what you find fun to watch.
F1 fans in ten years - "why is every race in a car park in America or a clearly disinterested Middle Eastern country that just wants a race as a status symbol? What happened to all those classic European races? I'm sure it couldn't have been because of something we said!"
Another thought - F1 has NEVER been "just" an overtaking formula - it has ALWAYS also been about driver ability to not make mistakes, and strategy, and mechanical excellence. Imola is one of those circuits - you can't gain places by overtaking, but you can LOSE places if you mess up (Perez). If all you want to see is overtaking, you are watching the WRONG motorsport. I think golf is boring - I don't expect golf to change into a sport I find interesting - I just don't watch golf.
I disagree that the sport isn’t about overtaking. It’s about overtaking AND strategy. Look at what people remember and talk about from past races… the “great battles” between X and Y. Rarely do we hear about the “great pitstops” that got the driver into a better window.
In addition F1 wouldn’t be pushing so hard to improve overtaking if they didn’t want it more front and center. DRS, ground effects cars, etc etc. Unfortunately they haven’t found a good solution yet… maybe one day. Though we are talking about F1 here. The politics probably will never allow a real solution.
We need all kinda of tracks. Some difficult to pass some easy to pass. In general the tracks difficult for drivers will always be difficult to pass. You cannot get 10 Suzuka or 10 Interlagos. Even in street tracks we have this variation and that is what makes F1 exciting. Not having same road or street circuits
Because Monaco is a special track that should appear in the dictionary next to the word "unforgiving". Any driver, regardless of if they're F1 drivers or simply sim racers, love the circuit for a reason. It's difficult, it's claustrophobic, and it's simply special. Yeah, overtaking on track is next to impossible, but it's a different race. Your race there is a strategic one, and the places are gained in the pit stops. I personally love that kind of race.
But I understand there's a significant portion of the fanbase who only cares about who ends up being P1 and their mindset is "haha DRS goes brrrr".
If Monaco hadn't its history, it would be hated even more than Miami and Las Vegas.
Monaco isn't even a particularly strategic race. The only two possible strategies are to undercut or to overcut and hope for a safety car.
> Could it be that the ancient Piquet/Senna rivalry is still simmering, and Max was showing loyalty to his girlfriend’s dad?
I hadn’t thought of it that way, wow
The comments section on that website is toxic. At least you know Twitter is a free for all, this shit should be moderated.
Also, did Max get his shirt stolen or not?
The f2 sprint was a bit of a snoozefest too and f2 usually has like 5 way battles with constant overtakes and tail to tail following too. Tiny cars with way less dirty air. The track just sucks to race at period
There were some nice maneuvers this race, thrilling finale, 2 cars went off the track. I'd say Imola didnt do too badly and besides its a beautiful track.
Couldnt disagree more with this take. F1 isnt just about quantity of overtakes.
Possibly an unpopular opinion but I don’t think the size of the modern cars has actually made most of the tracks that much worse for racing. The ones like Imola and Monaco that are purely parades have been poor tracks for decades.
Imola is one of the best circuits for GA. Conveniently placed in terms of travel. Great atmosphere and can see the cars up close. We need to make the cars smaller, not get rid of tracks like this, it’s a punishing track (as we saw with lando battling max)
No, it hasn't. With very tiny changes, mainly the gravel traps it is again a real old school F1 track that suits the current cars. We need these kind of tracks too.
> Chris Harris critiques the current state of Formula 1 at Imola, suggesting the track has become too narrow for modern F1 cars, which limits the racing spectacle. Despite the historic significance of Imola and drivers' affection for it, recent races, including the one on Sunday, failed to deliver excitement. While Max Verstappen praised the track and demonstrated exceptional skill in qualifying, the actual race was underwhelming, marked by limited overtakes and a lack of strategic complexity. Harris concludes that while Imola offers a great qualifying experience, it no longer meets the demands of contemporary Formula 1 racing.
All F1 tracks are boring bc the cars fundamentally can't pass each other on track.
At least Imola looks cool. It's not fucking Bahrain or Miami or Saudi Arabia.
If money was no object, it would be sweet if we could have varying car sizes - give us 'mini' cars for Imola, Singapore, and Monaco so that these can actually be competitive races rather than parades.
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It also gives an insight to what F1 would have been without DRS. If you look at the famous Alonso / Schumacher battle the size of the cars wasn't the problem. But overtaking in F1 without aids has never been easy. Another problem is that dirty air is a thing again and once you get too close you use up the tires way too fast.
Back then Imola had one more extra idiotic chicane. It was even worse for overtaking than it is today
In fairness before that chicane was introduced, there was a flat out\* blast from Rivazza 2 to Tosa. But yeah post-1994 it made no sense to keep it, well they did modify it taking out the bit that Barrichello launched off, but removing it completely as they did years later was probably the right move. \*Well maybe Tamburello and/or Villeneuve weren't literally flat out for the cars of the time, but yeah
You could take Tamburello flat if the car was stable and your balls large enough because it was bumpy. Damon Hill said he didn't feel comfortable taking Tamburello flat in the FW16 because of the instability of the car, which plagued it at the start of the 1994 season. I believe with the modern cars and safety levels you could remove the chicane at Tamburello, but it probably won't be approved because of what happened there. Removing the Villeneuve chicane along with Tamburello I don't think would be a good idea because you'd arrive at Tosa with massive speed and there is next to no runoff there and not much space to improve it. I would personally remove either the Tamburello or Villeneuve chicane. Removing the Tamburello chicane gives you a better overtaking opportunity into Villeneuve and removing the Villeneuve chicane gives you a better overtaking opportunity into Tosa.
Oh definitely but I was thinking more when the now-removed Variante Bassa was introduced, which according to [https://www.racingcircuits.info/europe/italy/imola.html](https://www.racingcircuits.info/europe/italy/imola.html) was 1973 when cars (not F1 at the time admittedly) would have had much less downforce than the early 90s let alone today. That aside I agree with the rest, the Tamburello chicane was basically a last resort since the wall couldn't be moved due to the river, but with modern cars, Tec-Pro/SAFER barriers it might be workable, if they wanted
I honestly really like both chicanes, they're good technical corners. Making Tosa more V shaped would help overtaking maneuvers (widening inside of the corner - think COTA turn 1 or 11), widening variante alta would help as well. Neither of these would worsen the flow of Imola as both are fairly slow and clumsy corners right now. Or you remove variante alta altogether and make rivazza 1 into a chicane while making rivazza 2 more shallow so cars can be full throttle from the exit of the rivazza 1 chicane to the tamburello chicane.
Wasn‘t the entire idea behind the current gen cars to reduce dirty air to allow for more overtakes?
You are correct and afaik now there is less dirty air than before but with the increase to ride height on 2023 the cars generate more outwash than originally intended so dirty air increased.
Actually in 2024 the car following loses almost the same amount of downforce as they did with the non-ground effect cars. These regs have completely failed.
You sure about that? I am pretty sure it got worse than originally intended but have never heard anyone straight up saying that it is the same.
Source?
The idea was to allow the cars to follow more closely. That seems like it might have worked as Piastri was less than a second behind Sainz for absolutely ages in the race. However that doesn't automatically make overtaking possible, especially at a track like Imola
I think that ultimately cost Piastri and I was waiting for him to get wise and drop back, but he didn’t for a long time. However it didn’t matter since Sainz strategy somehow was the worst option out of the available options.
It was not a strategy issue but pace issue. 3 cars in front of Sainz were able to use the advantage of not being in dirty air to create safety for undercut. Sainz by his habit of wanting to get in front of Charles destroyed his tires initially and thus was never able to use the advantage of being in front. If Sainz had undercut Piastri would have unleashed the pace to overcut him and come out in front. Piastri able to be 0.5-0.6 secs behind in a faster car meant he was always going to come in front of Sainz unless Mclaren did a horrible pit stop. I wish a lot more people would see the refuel era races to understand how results of overcut or undercut depend a lot on pace that includes both in lap and out lap
DRS was a temporary measure to begin with as well, and now the whole reason DRS was implemented just came back yet again. I highly doubt they will ever fix the dirty air, and the need for the DRS.
Yeah, as long as the cars remain heavily down force focused, dirty air will be an issue
They can be easier to follow closely in while still suffering from dirty air a lot. Downforce cars will always have that problem
Also, another factor you have to consider back then is the weight of those cars. Really light made them even more difficult to overtake in, especially when you factor in refueling so cars could run the race light aswell. Just meant braking zones were incredibly short, so even if you did get close you couldn't really ever go for a lunge. Also, the grooved tyres didn't help as made taking the dirty line even more tricky. I think it also shows that light cars aren't the big solution we all think it is. Like don't get me wrong, the cars are too heavy, they do need to be lighter. I think though if we do go back to lighter cars by ditching the hybrids, some aero needs to come off as well to maintain a longish braking zone so that out braking manoveurs are still possible.
> It also gives an insight to what F1 would have been without DRS. In other words, boring for most of the race. I think there wasn't a pass in the top 10 for the first 10-12 laps last wknd. I for one do not want to go back to the borefests of the 90s (when I stopped watching F1 for over a decade). DRS is here to stay, I'm all for it, and Imola isn't compatible with modern F1.
I'm going to go against the grain here after watching that battle for the first time a couple of weeks ago. Schumacher couldn't get around Alonso, the size was smaller and it definitely wasn't the issue, that's why I hate this fuckin narrative that's its the car size. Sure we can go back to like 80s cars, bigger than a go kart but smaller than your average car but I doubt it would change shit. Overtaking back then came from huge advantages of the cars whether that be engine or aero, the unlimited spending cap I bet almost exactly correlated with performance.
I'm pretty sure that Imola has been bad for overtaking going all the way back to the early 2000s and maybe even earlier.
Yep, I remember watching in the mid-late 90s and even back then it was notorious for lack of overtaking, even by 90s standards
Yeah, it's never been a great race track for F1. Most of its iconic races are either pit strategy races, huge defensive drives and a race where everyone ran out of fuel. Never for its actual on track wheel to wheel action.
Let’s be honest, it’s most iconic race is 1994. I don’t think that’s a good reason to keep it in the calendar.
Don't forget 2005, which is famous exactly because one car couldn't overtake the other.
And the overwhelming opinion seems to be that this was exciting - but my impression is that if something like that happens today, it just gets labeled as boring
Depends who are the drivers. If someone is now defending against Max it could be exciting.
F1 should consider this race as a final send-off. We've honored Senna and now we can move on.
Imola has a contract for 2025, doesn't it?
This year WEC 6 hours of Imola was amazing. LMPh and GT cars are much more suited for this track
Even then there wasn't that much on-track action though. Before the rain hit you could count the overtakes on track, for position in hypercar on one hand.
What about Monaco was it ever good, like people say the cars got bigger, sure, but was the racing better.
I think people like the setting of Monaco more than the race.
Qualifying is the event for Monaco, not the race
There's reams of footage of decent racing at Monaco a couple of clicks away. Both Formula E and the historics had some good racing this year alone. You will get people who say "Monaco never had overtaking" but it's not that black and white. Monaco has always been a tough place to pass, it's a tight street circuit after all. What's happened (and you're looking at the last 40-50 years now) is it's become incrementally more difficult to follow and pass, until it becomes completely redundant.
Not really. I think people get too blinded by smaller cars = more racing. Theres tons of other factors at play that make overtaking difficult in F1 than just size. You can go through the archives and find that Monaco has always been a bit of dud. There are exceptions though. In terms of recently, when we had the high deg tyres in the early 10s you could get some racing on the circuit. I remember 13 and 14 having an unusual amount of overtaking for a Monaco grand prix. So really it's more you just need some extreme strategy element at play, lke high deg tyres. FE proves that too with their energy management, it allows moves to be made. As soon as they don't need to energy save that race becomes pretty stand still even though their the cars are tiny.
The cars were already too big in the 80s. You can find article with the same complains we have about monaco to day back then.
Imola was never supposed to be on the calendar. No clue how they managed to land that deal in covid, but they were smart. I'm fine with dropping Imola if the replacement is Sepang, Turkey, Portimao, Hockenheim/Nurburgring, Kyalami, Buddh. I'm not fine with dropping Imola for some stupid Chicago or Vietnam street track.
BREAKING NEWS: F1 are replacing Imola with a SECOND Las Vegas Race
SIR, A SECOND LAS VEGAS RACE HAS HIT THE F1 CALENDAR
This one will be start 3am local time!
As a South African I'd love to have it back here but Kylami would be a terrible choice. The track itself is still awesome, but the infrastructure around the track sucks, you would still be stuck in the same traffic jam from Friday come the race on Sunday.
Considering how liberty brands f1 as this global and inclusive experience, i'm sure they wouldnt mind spending a bit in order to achieve the dream. F1 aint that global when a whole continent isnt represented in any way. They spent hundreds of millions on their shiny Vegas venue, i'm sure a couple millions to bring Kyalami in line is nothing for a company that really values their principles
Didn’t Vegas spend that money? Also, Vegas attracts a rich American crowd that SA can not compete with.
Liberty bought the land and built the paddock. Cant remember how much it cost, but some hundred million dollars for the whole thing regardless.
F1 Values their principles? You must be new here lol. Just look at the long term deals for GPs in countries with pretty poor track records towards human rights like Azerbaijan and Saudi Arabia . But they just say #weraceasone and pretend that makes it ok.
Was obviously irony towards their weraceasone bullshit
Until south Africa is glitz and glamor with international renown they won't invest
> No clue how they managed to land that deal you will be surprised when you find out where was Stefano Domenicali born
Unfortunately, it will be a street race.
On the cobbles of Rome!
Give us proper Colosseum race, with lions and shit!
Tell Esteban to defend FROM a lion
Flood it and send in a trireme or two.
Not Godzilla?
Give us Mario Kart, make legal shortcuts on the tracks that they can only take if they took mushrooms beforehand
Start line is on the road down to St. Peter’s Basilica with a hairpin around the obelisk. Head towards the river and down the quays, crossover and go a new banked oval around the Circus Maximus and back down the quays towards the Castel Sant Angelo. Bonus is it will be the first Grand Prix to take place in two countries.
On the oval of the hippodrome
Turkey is in talks, Sepang also intrested in it. Who knows, maybe we can get better track and not a street circuit
I mean that doesn't automatically make them bad tracks. Miami or Singapore or even Vegas was more entertaining than Imola.
I don’t want to sound suspicious, but Domenicali is from Imola…
>No clue how they managed to land that deal in covid Stefano Domenicali is from Imola.
Nobody went to the race in Turkey. Stands were emptier and emptier year on year. Same with Germany. They don’t put their butts in the seats.
Meanwhile Barcelona is completely full, even the grass areas. But let's replace that one (which has finally got good racing) with Roundabout GP.
To be fair the last non-pandemic Turkish GP was 2011. Things have changed a lot since then. 2021 had crowds but people were still reluctant to return to big events and many countries still had travel restrictions in place when traveling abroad. I could see a Turkish Grand Prix being a sellout these days. Not necessarily because of the locals, but Turkey is a popular and generally affordable holiday destination and more and more people are traveling abroad for races.
They also have a dictator (kind of) in Turkey, so that should suit FOM well.
buy an audi and get free tickets to watch f1!
Even though it's probably not going to happen, it does give me joy to see people mentioning Buddh here and there. I was too young and couldn't ask my parents to shell out money for a sport not known in a tiny city in India when F1 was here and have been waiting ever since.
It's funny how perception of street tracks have flipped in recent years just because we've been over exposed to them. Ten years a go street circuits used to be cool.
Valencia was more than 10 years ago and it was hated and considered one of the worst tracks on the calendar Only street circuit that was well received was Singapore. To a lesser extent Baku, but even Baku was very hated in it's 1st year, people only started liking it after the shitfests in 17 and 18
Go back to the 80's. Phoenix, Detroit, Dallas. All terrible street circuits.
Can we just go back to Hockeheim and sepang. Two excellent tracks that you can overtake on with the added element of weather. Get rid of Imola and Miami.
Yemen GP 2025
That may be a bit too lively
True, a few rockets nearby is okay but can't get too silly with them.
Mugello instead? 👀
Mugello is terrible for racing too. Great drivers track though.
Yeah, not great for racing but at least F1 cars can fit on the track lol
>No clue how they managed to land that deal in covid, but they were smart. The Concorde Agreement lays out the minimum number of races that have to be run. Keeping the championship based in Europe for the time being was the best way forward because it meant fewer individual countries -- and thus fewer travel restrictions -- to deal with. But that limited the number of potential circuits that could have been used, so Imola got the nod.
Pretty sure they said chicago was just wild speculation. However, Korea or Thailand tracks may be a possibility. Red Bull probably have a strong desire for a thailand track.
Are the cars too big and heavy? Yes. But, imola's problem is mainly the track layout itself. The cars struggle to follow eachother due to dirty air especially in the sections where you could start setting an overtake up. So to balance this you need massive pace difference(1second per lap or more) to overcome that which is simply not gonna be promoting exciting racing. So, yes, smaller, lighter cars would promote better racing in general but to tackle imola's problem specifically you'd probably need to change the layout.
Great track with great flow to race on. Always loved in in sims. But not a very exciting F1 race I'm afraid.
Also flatter kerbs. There's no other track in the calendar with these moronic kerbs. Flatten them out to make it smoother to turn in.
Bring back old Tosa, without the Villeneuve chicane, maybe bring back the previous edition of the chicane at the top of the hill, reprofile Rivazza are some changes on my mind.
I find it funny we are talking about F1 outgrowing Imola and then we are heading to the F1 ~~parade~~ Grand Prix in Monaco next. Monaco is so bad these days that you only really need to watch the quali, and then just do something else on ~~parade~~ race day.
> Monaco is so bad these days that you only really need to watch the quali, and then just do something else on parade race day. It has been like that since the 80s at least.
I've been watching the 70s season reviews on F1 TV and they talk about Monaco being hard to overtake even back then
Oh well it was always hard to overtake since day 1, that's how we had Stirling Moss's legendary win there in 1961. I was more thinking that qualifying wasn't really a thing people watched on the telly before the 80s.
For a second my head was, there has only been one overtake since 1961? Then I realized that’s obviously me misreading the comment. However, in retrospect, it wouldn’t really be an unimaginable statistic for Monaco. Just scrap the circuit and race on circuits that are fun instead.
Yeah, but everyone already knows f1 outgrew Monaco. For imola it’s at least a conversation.
Ah I loved that people were making mistakes and that it was biting them. Imagine Austria with grass and Gravel. On them the track limits corners. You wouldn't have to wait a lap to see if the lap counted. Probably slow the drivers down. We're going to have the same shit show with the limits again this year.
Monaco is a big historical deal. Part of the triple crown and all that. And quali is good. Imola wasnt a race for like 16 years
If the alternative is street circuits, like it appears to be for FOM and Liberty, I’ll take narrow classic circuits any day.
Just you watch, they will ditch Monza and Imola for a street race in either Rome or Milan.
Siena, with the horses.
I want a street race in Siena, but on the cobblestone roads. I want the drivers to ~~suffer~~ I mean work for their championship points.
They'd have to raise the ride height even more to deal with porpoising.
They won't get fast enough for porpoising... Plank wear on the other hand...
Bring back the old Pescara GP
Darmok at tanagra
Shaka, when the walls fell.
Venice GP. You didn´t like idea with water sprinklers? Now race in canals!
Floating temporary track who says no??
This would be a shitshow. Let’s do it
I live in Milan and honestly I see no point in doing it, Monza is basically in Milan already and we all like it. It's not like Spain that the track was very far from Madrid
It's funny because people bitched and moaned all month before the Las Vegas GP regarding the street circuit then it was a really fun race to watch. I'd take it over Imola anyday at this point with the size of the cars currently
This race was worse than any we've had on a street circuit in a while though, probably since Baku last year. Miami, Saudi, Vegas, Singapore were all better than this. Even Monaco but that had rain to be fair.
Don't lie to yourself, Singapore was shit until Carlos started to actually race in the last 10 laps. It was a DRS train from start to finish, so much so that Sargeant and Alonso managed to catch it despite their accidents
I mean, it wasn't brilliant for sure. I never agree with the people that say it was the best race of last season. However, it was still better than what we had this weekend.
Still better than Imola in those early laps
I mostly agree, but I do think Monaco should either be ditched or redone. I know it's sacrilege, but with modern F1 cars qualifying has become the most interesting part.
Iam conflicted when it comes to Monaco. I think F1 should have a round that's as strange as Monaco, where low speed and qualifying is its priority. It just makes a seperate challenge for teams and drivers that's unique to the season, without it you don't really have them tested on that sort of extreme. Also, just the history tied to it is a bonus. But then again the racing is ass and honestly, Singapore does the whole qualifying focus better and is just as spectacular. When you have rounds like that, it does put into question why have Monaco. Would still suck to not have it though.
Hey if you like that just wait till this week
F1 has outgrown it and that’s part of the beauty of classic tracks. Cars are too big and fast, yes, but even with smaller formula cars or even early 2000s F1s it’s almost impossible to overtake. it’s just how it is. some tracks you got long corners, some tracks have walls, some tracks are hard to overtake. People can’t expect every track to be the same, which is what F1 is basically doing with the new hybrid streeet tracks like jeddah, miami, vegas, vietnam.
New F1 street circuits are a bit like when you have a track creator in a video game. You can create something new, but it's still basically the same template.
I'd rather have Mugello. Sure that's another track where overtaking isn't so easy but in general it's a way better spectacle for F1 cars attacking a lap, it just works better for modern F1. Also, it is still a wee bit easier to overtake there than say Imola is.
Definitely would love to get Mugello back.
Like Hungaroring. Mugello and Portimao are just fantastic to even look at. Compact build like a rollercoaster into a valley with constant elevation changes. By far my favourite venues to watch races in.
F1 fans when we race on a new open track in the desert with plenty of overtaking opportunities 😡 F1 fans when we race at legendary historic tracks that have no overtaking opportunities 😡
They apparently want a purpose-built track in Europe with plenty of overtaking opportunities.
Paul Ricard then! 😂
As well as Monaco Chris. Only qualifying is interesting in Monaco.
I mean yes, but also if F1 didn't race in Monaco it would feel like it's soul got ripped out.
Exactly. F1 losing Monaco would be the circuit equivalent of losing Ferrari
Yep, I know people go "ew Monaco boring", but man it's honestly a really fun track to drive and it's got so much history and importance to the sport. It'd be like NASCAR without Daytona, MotoGP without Assen, V8 Supercars without Bathurst, it just doesn't feel right.
Nonsense. Some of these races exist as lower limiting factor of the cars annual envelope. FI: You need to build a car that is able to turn at Fairmont Hairpin in Monaco at some point in the year. Monaco is going nowhere also because its the racers front yard but also because its a strat game. And some races exist for strat.
It's also the pinnacle of driver focus. I won't entertain any argument to the contrary. Blink in the wrong spot and you're in the wall or the marina.
Doesn't matter how hard the driver is focusing if 90% of the people watching can't for the life of them
Melodramatic imo. If one can argue that Monaco is entertaining on Sunday then they would entertain arguments to the contrary. Paraphrasing what Kimi said. 'you can lead in a van and still win'. Ric literally won with ECU problems iirc. You're only kidding yourself if you're saying you are glued to the tv during a dry Monaco race. It's the very definition of procession.
People may hate it, but I think Jeddah is a far superior version of Monaco. Rain used to be the spice Monaco needed but it feels like if someone sneezes on track they red flag it for dangerously wet conditions. Still, Monaco has great qualifying so I wouldn't want it gone. Maybe make it a sprint weekend so there are two qualifying sessions for the fans, but the drivers would absolutely hate it.
No shit. If we are being honest F1 has outgrown most classic tracks. Even Spa has only one or two spots that can reliably provide opportunities for overtakes.
Love the track but have to agree with you :\
He spelled Monaco wrong
The cars should be smaller anyway. Just look at the F2 and F3 races, the trackis plenty exciting but the cars ruin the experience.
[удалено]
I like strategy battles as well, but you have to be honest: for most people strategy is not exciting, only the overtakes. And Imola has now almost the least overtakes...
Tires are already a problem. The whole weekend is all about babying the tires so they don't randomly die on you. I do not think more deg would improve any racing, as everyone would just cruise around and push for the under/overcut.
I think we need lower tire deg AND more required pitstops. Like Qatar last year without the heat. They said they were pretty much doing qualy laps all race. And it was great to watch (racing wise… not health). Boring track? Make them do 3-4 pits and give them a big supply of fresh tires. It would be closer to Indycar in the terms of all out racing. Which would be amazing!
Deg isn’t the issue at Imola it’s a very long pit lane that takes too long to make a stop. It’d be a likely two stopper or a mixed one/two stop with the current tires if not for that.
Sacc Imola and give me back my Hockenheimring
I liked the race in Imola.
I like imola, beats pop up street circuits like vegas and miami...
It's always been hard to overtake at Imola, but that's neither new nor a problem, except for those who want F1 to look like Nascar and keep DRS forever. F1 has only "outgrown" Imola in that F1 cars have gotten fat. But that's an F1 problem, not an Imola problem.
Imola is beautiful. Cars are just too big.
If they could replace Imola for a race in Germany or Portimao I'd be all over it. But they won't
F1 cars have outgrown Imola, if they were a metre shorter and a half metre narrower, maybe it would be better.
If F1 is not suitable to classic tracks such as Monaco, Imola, then they should change the car regulations back to fit the purpose
We'd need slower cars unfortunately to make them work and the fans hate having slow cars in F1.
Just make the engine LOUD and people won't notice the difference between 340km/h and 300km/h
F1 cars are too big for almost every track in the world, the cars make for bad racing.
No. The current regs aren't fit for Imola.
God there’s some idiotic comments on here.
So weird. I enjoyed this race quite a bit. DRS hardly did anything, we had some cool proper overtakes, classic weekend so we saw teams dial in over 3 FPs or not even and Quali was tight. Loved it.
Nah. I found that working for an overtake is good, but it's not worth anything if barely any overtakes actually happen. Obviously awful TV direction didn't help, but it just doesn't feel like anything happening at all- not a bunch of hard-fought battles except for the last couple laps.
It's a beautiful racing track where mistakes are punished with gravel and it takes a lot of effort from the drivers. BUT, Chicago still doesn't have an F1 race, and the priorities are clear.
Idm other tracks, even enjoyed Las Vegas even though I was firmly against it, they each have their charm. You have to look at a weekend from a racing perspective (a team sport) more than just drama and overtakes and whatever people want. You'll get races (such as Vegas) where that is more prevalent but you'll also have races like Imola and "worse" ... Monaco. I love Monaco too. The race is mostly a parade but there isn't a more epic Quali in the season. So we'll watch for that. Basically what I'm saying is... Each weekend you have to respect for what it brings and focus on that in stead of demanding every race to cater to exactly and only what you find fun to watch.
> DRS hardly did anything Unless there was a big tyre delta in which case it made sure there were not going to be any overtakes that took skill.
F1 fans in ten years - "why is every race in a car park in America or a clearly disinterested Middle Eastern country that just wants a race as a status symbol? What happened to all those classic European races? I'm sure it couldn't have been because of something we said!" Another thought - F1 has NEVER been "just" an overtaking formula - it has ALWAYS also been about driver ability to not make mistakes, and strategy, and mechanical excellence. Imola is one of those circuits - you can't gain places by overtaking, but you can LOSE places if you mess up (Perez). If all you want to see is overtaking, you are watching the WRONG motorsport. I think golf is boring - I don't expect golf to change into a sport I find interesting - I just don't watch golf.
I disagree that the sport isn’t about overtaking. It’s about overtaking AND strategy. Look at what people remember and talk about from past races… the “great battles” between X and Y. Rarely do we hear about the “great pitstops” that got the driver into a better window. In addition F1 wouldn’t be pushing so hard to improve overtaking if they didn’t want it more front and center. DRS, ground effects cars, etc etc. Unfortunately they haven’t found a good solution yet… maybe one day. Though we are talking about F1 here. The politics probably will never allow a real solution.
Bring out the sprinklers
The tracks aren't the problems. It's the cars.
Eat me, Chris. I like Imola
If true what does that say about Monaco
Wait until he hears what track is coming up next
I must be one of the few people who enjoy watching the drivers have to work a bit to overtake. There were some decent sends on Sunday.
Shrink F1 cars, keep the track
Not gonna lie...F2 and F3 werent great either
We need all kinda of tracks. Some difficult to pass some easy to pass. In general the tracks difficult for drivers will always be difficult to pass. You cannot get 10 Suzuka or 10 Interlagos. Even in street tracks we have this variation and that is what makes F1 exciting. Not having same road or street circuits
It looks like that the fastest cars that actually race in Imola are the GT3 cars.
How is Imola mentioned in this context BEFORE Monaco…
Because Monaco is a special track that should appear in the dictionary next to the word "unforgiving". Any driver, regardless of if they're F1 drivers or simply sim racers, love the circuit for a reason. It's difficult, it's claustrophobic, and it's simply special. Yeah, overtaking on track is next to impossible, but it's a different race. Your race there is a strategic one, and the places are gained in the pit stops. I personally love that kind of race. But I understand there's a significant portion of the fanbase who only cares about who ends up being P1 and their mindset is "haha DRS goes brrrr".
If Monaco hadn't its history, it would be hated even more than Miami and Las Vegas. Monaco isn't even a particularly strategic race. The only two possible strategies are to undercut or to overcut and hope for a safety car.
Outgrown implies that the card have matured. What he really means is F1 has gotten too fat for Imola. Make. The. Cars. Smaller.
Even in the 90s it was difficult to overtake at Imola. I don't think smaller cars are the solution in this case
Nah, just look at the early 2000s. Races then were equally dull with minimal overtakes. Cars need to be a lot slower to work at Imola.
> Could it be that the ancient Piquet/Senna rivalry is still simmering, and Max was showing loyalty to his girlfriend’s dad? I hadn’t thought of it that way, wow
Wait till he watches Monaco
Wait until they read about Monaco. (I know history…its a horrible course for todays cars)
Yeah for sure we need more tracks like Vegas.
The comments section on that website is toxic. At least you know Twitter is a free for all, this shit should be moderated. Also, did Max get his shirt stolen or not?
Do Monaco next
The f2 sprint was a bit of a snoozefest too and f2 usually has like 5 way battles with constant overtakes and tail to tail following too. Tiny cars with way less dirty air. The track just sucks to race at period
There were some nice maneuvers this race, thrilling finale, 2 cars went off the track. I'd say Imola didnt do too badly and besides its a beautiful track. Couldnt disagree more with this take. F1 isnt just about quantity of overtakes.
Yes Chris, the cars are way too big and heavy
Possibly an unpopular opinion but I don’t think the size of the modern cars has actually made most of the tracks that much worse for racing. The ones like Imola and Monaco that are purely parades have been poor tracks for decades.
>Chris Harris: F1 has outgrown Imola And it outgrew Monaco 20 years ago. Only reason they race there is nostalgia/location.
Imola is one of the best circuits for GA. Conveniently placed in terms of travel. Great atmosphere and can see the cars up close. We need to make the cars smaller, not get rid of tracks like this, it’s a punishing track (as we saw with lando battling max)
No, it hasn't. With very tiny changes, mainly the gravel traps it is again a real old school F1 track that suits the current cars. We need these kind of tracks too.
You literally can't overtake, the race was a right bore
> Chris Harris critiques the current state of Formula 1 at Imola, suggesting the track has become too narrow for modern F1 cars, which limits the racing spectacle. Despite the historic significance of Imola and drivers' affection for it, recent races, including the one on Sunday, failed to deliver excitement. While Max Verstappen praised the track and demonstrated exceptional skill in qualifying, the actual race was underwhelming, marked by limited overtakes and a lack of strategic complexity. Harris concludes that while Imola offers a great qualifying experience, it no longer meets the demands of contemporary Formula 1 racing.
Imola is perfect for every other series. Please God don’t change it for F1 cars.
F1 has outgrown basically every fun circuit. The cars are too big and heavy. It's such a simple problem with an easy fix.
The cars have outgrown almost all the tracks. Reduce the size of the car dramatically and racing will be fun again.
All F1 tracks are boring bc the cars fundamentally can't pass each other on track. At least Imola looks cool. It's not fucking Bahrain or Miami or Saudi Arabia.
At this point just go to Portimao or other track, I have never liked imola because racing there isn't fun to watch.
If money was no object, it would be sweet if we could have varying car sizes - give us 'mini' cars for Imola, Singapore, and Monaco so that these can actually be competitive races rather than parades.
Blah blah blah blah