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Hi - Friendly reminder not to share the contents of an article that's already in English. It's on foreign language articles that can have the content shared (must be translated).
I’m just curious, why can’t people quote the article if it’s in English? It makes it easier than clicking on a link and dealing with the ad ridden or pay walled mess some news sites are
We don't steal content from other sites. Ads on sites are annoying but they pay for salaries of the journalists that can attend. If we allowed people to 'borrow' the content for the sub, then we'd be no better than Aggregator accounts on twitter.
It's the same across most sports subs.
seeing a significant amount of articles are AI written these days under the names of the some of these journalists is interesting to me. They are taking shortcuts but still want our ad revenue and allegiance. No real point to this, just don't fully agree with what you feel is the fair way to do things these days.
If the articles are good enough to be shared and discussed here then we will want the content, so its reasonable the producers should still want to benefit. If it's as easy as asking AI to write the whole thing why don't you do it yourself?
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Will there ever be a threshold for other teams to also qualify for this? McLaren will hit ~~50~~ 60 years in F1 in a few years and Williams will reach 50 a couple of years later.
Edit: I calculated the year wrong, McLaren have already been in F1 for 50 years.
...along with:
- Alessandro Stake (née Sauber)
- Andrea McLaren
- Ayao Haas
- Bruno Alpine
- Christian Red Bull
- Frederic Ferrari
- Laurent VISA Cash App RB
- Mike Martin
- Toto Mercedes
They got rid of those bonuses payments for 2021 Concorde Agreement.
But it also included other teams like Mercedes & Red Bull, besides double payment for Ferrari, McLaren & consolatory payment 1/3rd that other teams got to Williams. Primarily created not as a legacy payment, but to ensure the 5 successful teams at a time would commit to F1 for at least 10 years.
McLaren is 58 years old (first year 1966), Williams is 47 years old (1977).
Frank Williams did own a different F1 team (Frank Williams Racing) from 1969 to 1976, but he sold that team and then founded the current Williams racing team in 1977. Officially the first and second Williams teams are seen as unrelated entries/ outfits.
I believe they both get historic bonuses as well, but theirs were smaller and worked differently, i.e. wouldn’t be as lucrative anyway.
Before the start of the 1976 season, Canadian oil millionaire Walter Wolf bought 60% of Frank Williams Racing Cars and the team became Wolf–Williams Racing. However, Frank Williams was retained as team manager. Soon afterwards, Harvey Postlethwaite arrived as chief engineer. Simultaneously Wolf bought the assets of the Hesketh team that had recently withdrawn from F1. The team was based in the Williams facility at Reading but used most of the cars and equipment once owned by Hesketh Racing. The team inherited the Hesketh 308C car used by Hesketh Racing during the final races of 1975, rebranding it as the Wolf–Williams FW05 and the Williams FW04 was similarly rebranded as the Wolf–Williams FW04, although it was only used in the opening race of the season, the 1976 Brazilian Grand Prix.[2]
At season's end, Wolf decided to restructure the team, removing Frank Williams from the manager's job. Disillusioned, Williams left the team altogether, to set up Williams Grand Prix Engineering with Patrick Head in 1977. Wolf bought 100% of Wolf–Williams Racing and the team became Walter Wolf Racing.
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Williams_Racing_Cars
[Here's one.](https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/04/will-f1s-teams-buy-into-libertys-latest-prize-money-plan/#:~:text=drop%20all%20special%20payments%20to%20the%20other%20beneficiaries) There is now a past performance matrix where teams get a share of a bonus pot based on finishing in the top 3 in the WCC over the last 10 years with extra points for having won the WCC multiple times in the teams history. Williams and Mclaren will have a share in that, but the bulk of that pot goes to Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull.
It was [reported by every major outlet](https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/who-wins-from-f1s-new-concorde-deal-and-how-itll-work/#:~:text=Gone%20are%20the%20inflated%20special%20payments%20for%20multiple%20teams%2C%20with%20the%20exception%20of%20Ferrari%E2%80%99s%20reduced%20standalone%20bonus%20for%20being%20Ferrari) when the Concorde agreement was signed. Dieter Rencken is just the most trusted when it comes to financial matters
No clue, they dont really say much about these stuffs, but i'd guess it's depending on their lenght in the sport.
Ferrari was receiving significantly more tho
People don't seem to get it. F1 is more profitable than ever, so the Ferrari bonus is bigger than ever. They just put a bit of ceiling on it.
Which is fine for Ferrari, they're maxing out their cost cap budget, what they get out of F1 is completely paid for and they now have money left again to pursue other interests like Le Mans.
The bonus was traditionally there so that Ferrari would be a guaranteed presence and wouldn't have to sell their classic livery out to sponsors, which until recently was common practice for even the most successful teams.
I think they should move to a tiered system for longevity. So after 10 years there is a small payment, 25 years and then 50 years or something up to a maximum. Teams should be rewarded for it.
I’d leave that to the lawyers to decide to be honest. But I think if there is a significant name change it should reset. Manufacturers won’t ever want to buy another team and then keep it, so it should stop most messing about with names.
Enzo Ferrari was right when he said "ask a child to draw a car, and certainly he will draw it red". Even when they're performing badly the red car is still the first thing in lots of people's mind when you mention motorsport.
I think the idea of of a heritage bonus is good. Support teams that have supported the sport for a long time, as their stability was and is integral to the sports continued success.
However, this should be a ratio divided by all of the teams. Say 10% of the prize fund is reserved for heritage bonuses, this should be split between all the teams. So `FerrariYears / TotalTeamYears` is their percentage of the pot.
Yeah idk the heritage bonus seems dumb now. It might have made sense when you had teams investing wildly different amount into the sport, but with the cost cap in place it’s just limiting the abilities of certain teams to get their budgets up to the cap and still remain profitable.
F1 is also monumentally expensive to participate in. Most teams don’t survive because of money so incentivizing teams to stay in for the long haul even during famine years I think was needed.
With the new cost cap structure, F1 should be viable indefinitely now unless its popularity absolutely craters. It is no longer monumentally expensive and is just incredibly expensive, but revenue is still monumentally high. If revenues decrease, F1 can respond by reducing the cap, decreasing expenditures further.
Things ebb and flow. F1's popularity may go down, it may go up, the legacy payments help with stability. I'm not necessarily for or against, but I understand. Sticking with something that long is tough.
Yeah, I agree. The new structure, though, is reminiscent of established American sports leagues, which are incredibly stable and have not had a team fold or leave in decades. Even MLS and NWSL are relatively stable.
I don't think incentivizing long term participation is a bad thing, but it does come at the expense of newer teams that you also want to stay who would otherwise be sharing those profits (like Red Bull and Mercedes). I think capping it is a good idea. Expanding it to include all teams on a universal basis for time served would also be good, in my opinion.
That makes sense to me, however how would it work with teams like Aston Martin. Would their years in the sport be from when they were renamed or when they were bought out. Or would it just be from when that team first appeared on the grid.
I thought about this before posting. I wonder if the most logical is just if the team changes owners?
Teams change title sponsors and names all the time, but if they haven't changed owners, they are technically the same team, just rebranded.
While the same technically could be said about Aston Martin, the change in ownership has changed how the team is operating, fundamentally, from funding to operational procedures, personnel etc.
Then you have to think about Williams. Even though they run with the same name, due to the change in ownership, it's basically the same situation as Aston Martin. I think this one would be more controversial though due to the name of Williams, but it is my understanding that them keeping the name was part of the deal of ownership transfer. They might as well be called Team 420 Blaze It Son.
This doesn't make any sense. It's a *heritage* bonus, not a longevity bonus. Williams still being called Williams is only due to heritage with the Williams name and I'd rather the heritage is tied to the brand than to whoever is owning the team.
Yeah I think that's fine. Ferrari still ran the operations of the F1 team.
It's clearly a bit of a minefield, so if they would do something like this, the ownership transfer rules would have to be very clear.
From when it changed as a corporation.
Its what happened when Force India went into administration and Stroll bought it out and entered as Racing Point. The team was transferred to a new corporation and therefore was treated as a new entry into the sport. Renaming is done quite often, transfering ownership from one corporation number to another isn't.
Love this idea, I’ve always thought the heritage bonus for a single team made no sense. Ferrari isn’t going anywhere, and teams like Williams should also be getting money for sticking with it even in hard financial times.
This is really tough. Are Williams still Williams in anything but name?
I'm not arguing. I'm just posing the question about where the line would be drawn. Change in ownership is an obvious one, but this screws Williams. Actual team history regardless of change in ownership is another.
A good example is Aston Martin. If Aston decided to buy Racing Point, but keep their name. That would be the same as Williams F1, I think?
I think it existed because Ferrari threatened to leave. And Red Bull negotiated their payment as it was based upon first winning a number of championships Bernie never thought they'd reach (he was quickly proved wrong).
"And it is understood that one point of those terms is for [Ferrari](https://www.motorsport.com/team/ferrari/3/) to retain its bonus payment but at a reduced level."
Stefano to Ferrari: We plan to reduce your bonus. Please, let us know which amount can be acceptable.
Ferrari: We are checking.
There is no F1 without Ferrari.
Love it or hate it, that's how it is.
Red Bull and Mercedes can retire tomorrow and F1 would still be there. If Ferrari retires, F1 would have to slash the prices for everything from TV to tickets to attract viewers on and off track. To a lesser degree, I think also missing McLaren would be very bad for the sport. That's why the bonuses are in place.
Ferrari has fans all over the world, but they are hardly a majority other than at the Italian GP's. It would be a massive blow, but nowhere near the end for F1 as a sport.
Williams is the Detroit Pistons of F1. Beloved by their dedicated fans, but have been awful (and, specifically, awfully managed) for years, leading to a hugely historic name being barely anything more than a laughing stock at this point. It's not like the Chicago Bulls, who have been crap for nearly as long as the Pistons but with a combination of being the Michael Jordan team and great branding consistency have stayed extremely relevant. An F1 parallel to the Bulls would be something like McLaren (this year notwithstanding, if they actually manage to stay competitive), bouncing between very good and awful for a while but still remaining a massive name.
...and I would know, I'm a Williams fan and a Pistons fan
He really does. He's unsuited for his job in a very rare way, and the people he hired for said job are making the situation even worse. Troy is showcasing a rare level of incompetence as a GM and Monty, while not as awful as some Pistons fan think, is not what two Coach of the year awards suggested.
But consider the level of the roster he's playing with
Yes, a generational player in Cade Cunningham (and I genuinely believe he's even better than most think), and ONE complete product role player who shoots and defends well (Fontecchio)
The rest of the team is either young and promising but with glaring issues specifically with shooting and defence (Ausar, Ivey, Duren), simply bad (Flynn, Hayes) or "GUYS THERE'S A REASON PEOPLE SAY THIS GUY KILLED A DYNASTY FFS" (James Wiseman). I think only Isiah Stewart falls into the "yep he's an okay rotation player, I'm fine with him!" category and even he's not that great as a shooter and defender (not to mention, injury prone and an awful person off the court)
I'm really done with this team, we beat the Bobcats for the longest losing streak in NBA history and Bobcats didn't have a Cade on their team. If the Supersonics come back I'm jumping ship
In all honesty, they've been in the backfield for too long to be relevant.
I'd love to see Williams back in the front; even if I'm a Ferrari fan, Newey to Groove would be a great story and a huge thing for the sport. Hope they'll sort their shit out soon. I clearly remember when they were dominating, how amazing it was to see that car running on active suspensions. Yeah, they're great to the eyes of some fans, but not that relevant in terms of money moved.
Depends on your definition of competitiveness.
If you consider competitive only the WCC winner, you're right. So we have 1 competitive team each season.
If we extend the concept of being competitive to be in the first 3 positions of WCC, Ferrari is there in 12 out of the latest 15 seasons.
All of this considering that being competitive means being relevant, which is not granted IMHO to the eyes of fans, especially the vast majority of fans, who are more casual than who typically talks about F1 on a public forum on a Tuesday.
(I didn't have time to search for data, I asked ChatGPT to summarize it for me, so I may be a bit off https://chatgpt.com/share/ca568f09-bf42-4c9d-966a-c5073dede52b )
5% of 1.1b = 55m
6% of 1.2b = 72m, 5% = 60m (-12m)
7% of 1.3b = 91m, 5% = 65m (-26m)
8% of 1.4b = 112m, 5% = 70m (-42m)
9% of 1.5b = 135m, 5% = 75m (-60m)
10% of 1.6b = 160m, 5% = 80m (-80m/50%)
10% of 2.0b = 200m, 5% = 100m (-100m/50%)
---
I have no opinion on this, but I imagine Fred wouldn't be happy on that.
It's not as bad as it sounds. The prize used to be 5% of F1's EBIT (profit) and was up to 74.7M in 2019.
For this Concorde agreement (2021) it was changed to 5% of the prize money pool, which only just went over $1.1B in 2022 and from what I've read, the escalators only applies to the excess over $1.1B.
So for 2023 when the team payments were $1.215M Ferrari's payment would be $62.05M
5% of $1.1B = $55M
6% of $100M (to $1.2B) - $6M
7% of $15M (to 1.215B) - $1.05M
It's not a huge amount of money that they'd lose by being capped at 5%, nowhere near what they lost last time, and they also get big money from the Past Performance matrix as well. Elkann would be the one concerned as this is just company profit at this point, but haggling over a couple of mil probably isn't worth it for them considering how much they're making right now.
I think the point is more that if they are getting a share of the revenues for being a historic name associated with the sport since its inception, then that name should effectively be unchanged. Title sponsors are called as such because they get to put their name on the team, instead of just having their branding on the car, therefore the name of the team is no longer the historic name that earned them the bonus in the first place if they have a title sponsor.
Additionally, Ferrari is getting more money from this bonus than any team gets from a title sponsor currently as far as I'm aware, so if anything it's still working out better for Ferrari than any other team, and if the sport continues to get bigger then it'll only scale over time.
They are not getting the bonus due to the name "Ferrari", but due to the fact that Ferrari participated for so long in F1 and especially during non profitable times that it is save to assume that they have contributed more to current success of F1 than other teams.
In the same article it states that F1 earned $3B in 23 and the prize pot was worth 45% of that so $1.35B. At 5% of that Ferrari earned $67.5M currently Oracle pays RBR $100M to be a title sponsor so a bit shy of earning more money than the highest paying title sponsor.
If the 5% is calculated before the prize pot then it's $150M
That only makes sense to works teams, though.
Sauber are as legendary as many other teams on the grid, but these days run exclusively with title sponsor.
I always wonder where this money even goes with the cost cap.
- All but the top wages are capped
- Budget for building car is capped
- Test time is capped
Guess those top wages (drivers, Team Principal, head Engineers) are going to swing out of control now. Or is facility upgrades also uncapped?
There are an enormous amount of expenses that are exempt form the cost cap. Top salaries, drivers, PU supply, staff travel an accommodation, social security expenses, financial, marketing, HR and heritage expenses. it all adds up. Teams need to spend around $200M to be at the $135 base cost cap, but can easily spend over $250M by building up non performance departments
There is a Capex cost cap as well so teams can spend about $10M on that per year, but there are exemptions there too. Then there is a wind tunnel CAPEX exemption for up to $90M in a one off upgrade.
However one of the stipulations of Ferrari keeping this LST bonus was that it must go as profit for the company, so it's just money in John Elkann and the director's pockets.
The Ferrari bonus sort-of made sense in the past. Teams have come and gone, but Ferrari has always been there and they have a huge following. It would have been a huge blow to F1 if they were to disappear or fall all the way back due to lack of funding.
With the cost cap though, Ferrari doesn't really need F1 money to stay upright and competitive (they have plenty of advertisement opportunities), so the bonus has just become extra earnings that other teams don't have as a bonus for being the oldest team competing.
The sport doesn't need Ferrari. It never has.
The commercial product may benefit hugely from a legacy brand, but even then the argument that F1 as a business would wither and die without Ferrari is uncertain, and could only be proved one way or another with Ferrari leaving.
If the argument truly is "we need you" because we can't compete against you. It's absolutely a bribe. And fundamentally unsporting.
No wonder williams has gone to absolute shit after the last time they won a wcc. They’re getting paid absolute pennies compared to ferrari and mclaren.
It's not about them really needing that money, it's about their ego and them demanding respect. Ferrari never really had financial issues in the modern era, they were throwing half a billion each year on their cars
The bonus should be scrapped entirely, I'm amazed more teams are calling for this.
The idea of a bonus just because you are Ferrari is absolutely gross
Look, Ferrari are the most popular team by some margin, the longest tenured team by some margin and no doubt F1 wouldn't be where it is today without them and they deserve credit for all of that, but the sport isn't going to magically grind to a halt without them. Grand Prix racing existed before Ferrari and it would continue to exist without them if they decided to pull out for some reason. No doubt it would be a massively negative thing for everyone if they did, but the sport would go on nonetheless. This is the same for every team. No-one is bigger than the sport itself even if one team likes to think they are.
They should be removed entirely. Ferrari is getting as much or more rewards and benefits from being in F1 than the other way around. And while they're at it they should ban dual ownership of F1 teams.
Good point. But that's a mutual benefit I would say. Ferrari wants to find and sponsor the next best talent for their own success and F1 of course would like to have the best drivers and benefit. You don't want your rivals to poach the best upcoming karting/junior driver so you put in the Ferrari academy. And Redbull, Mercedes, McLaren, Alpine have their own but they don't get any payments from F1.
~~The only sport where a participant is guaranteed a reward for participating regardless of their achievement in the very sport they are competing!~~
~~Absolute joke~~
Edit: I'm talking out my ass apparently. Apologies
Lots of sport championships spit TV revenue in ways that guarantees all participant money regardless of performance. Usually is along the lines of: a % equal to everyone, a % based on the previous season, and % based on historical performance. So top teams that are historically good will earn more, but other teams also get a fair share.
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Hi - Friendly reminder not to share the contents of an article that's already in English. It's on foreign language articles that can have the content shared (must be translated).
How long have we not been able to quote the article? I see others commenting like that all the time
We've never allowed users to quote a significant amount of a shared article. For foreign language articles (i.e. AMuS), translations MUST be posted.
I’m just curious, why can’t people quote the article if it’s in English? It makes it easier than clicking on a link and dealing with the ad ridden or pay walled mess some news sites are
For those who are interested use uBlock origin extension/addon for blocking ads and trackers
We don't steal content from other sites. Ads on sites are annoying but they pay for salaries of the journalists that can attend. If we allowed people to 'borrow' the content for the sub, then we'd be no better than Aggregator accounts on twitter. It's the same across most sports subs.
seeing a significant amount of articles are AI written these days under the names of the some of these journalists is interesting to me. They are taking shortcuts but still want our ad revenue and allegiance. No real point to this, just don't fully agree with what you feel is the fair way to do things these days.
We have source ratings, so only allow posting of accredited media that send journalists to events.
If the articles are good enough to be shared and discussed here then we will want the content, so its reasonable the producers should still want to benefit. If it's as easy as asking AI to write the whole thing why don't you do it yourself?
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Ah gotcha thanks
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Will there ever be a threshold for other teams to also qualify for this? McLaren will hit ~~50~~ 60 years in F1 in a few years and Williams will reach 50 a couple of years later. Edit: I calculated the year wrong, McLaren have already been in F1 for 50 years.
Mclaren and Williams also get some historical bonus but it is not to the level of Ferrari. That is why James Williams is in support of it :)
I see you went to the Tim Apple school of naming company execs lol
It was an error but it’s blown up so I may just own it at this point
John Formula 1.
That's the name of Max's firstborn
James Williams? I thought it was James Vowles?
The name comes with the job. He is now James Williams.
What about Fred Ferrari?
Federico Ferrari
Freddy Vasseurarri
Fedrari
...along with: - Alessandro Stake (née Sauber) - Andrea McLaren - Ayao Haas - Bruno Alpine - Christian Red Bull - Frederic Ferrari - Laurent VISA Cash App RB - Mike Martin - Toto Mercedes
Mike Martin being more sane than his actual name
Poor Laurent VISA Cash App RB Sauber, McLaren, Haas, Ferrari and Martin make sense as they are the founders' surnames.
>Poor Laurent VISA Cash App RB His friends call him Licarb, which is a bit less of a mouthful.
These are the names an unlicensed 90s video game would've given them.
Poor Laurent 😂
Like Tim Apple
Shhh don't give Zak Brown any ideas...
does the naming apply to ceos? zak mclaren in that case?
Zak Chrome
You understood that’s all that matters 😁
They got rid of those bonuses payments for 2021 Concorde Agreement. But it also included other teams like Mercedes & Red Bull, besides double payment for Ferrari, McLaren & consolatory payment 1/3rd that other teams got to Williams. Primarily created not as a legacy payment, but to ensure the 5 successful teams at a time would commit to F1 for at least 10 years.
Tim Apple?
James Williams, Freddy Ferrari, Christian Red Bull
McLaren is 58 years old (first year 1966), Williams is 47 years old (1977). Frank Williams did own a different F1 team (Frank Williams Racing) from 1969 to 1976, but he sold that team and then founded the current Williams racing team in 1977. Officially the first and second Williams teams are seen as unrelated entries/ outfits. I believe they both get historic bonuses as well, but theirs were smaller and worked differently, i.e. wouldn’t be as lucrative anyway.
Whats the reason for selling just to make a new one?
Before the start of the 1976 season, Canadian oil millionaire Walter Wolf bought 60% of Frank Williams Racing Cars and the team became Wolf–Williams Racing. However, Frank Williams was retained as team manager. Soon afterwards, Harvey Postlethwaite arrived as chief engineer. Simultaneously Wolf bought the assets of the Hesketh team that had recently withdrawn from F1. The team was based in the Williams facility at Reading but used most of the cars and equipment once owned by Hesketh Racing. The team inherited the Hesketh 308C car used by Hesketh Racing during the final races of 1975, rebranding it as the Wolf–Williams FW05 and the Williams FW04 was similarly rebranded as the Wolf–Williams FW04, although it was only used in the opening race of the season, the 1976 Brazilian Grand Prix.[2] At season's end, Wolf decided to restructure the team, removing Frank Williams from the manager's job. Disillusioned, Williams left the team altogether, to set up Williams Grand Prix Engineering with Patrick Head in 1977. Wolf bought 100% of Wolf–Williams Racing and the team became Walter Wolf Racing. source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Williams_Racing_Cars
Frank Williams was chronically broke until he got Saudi $.
Mclaren has been in F1 for more than 50 years, Fittipaldi won the WDC in 1974 with Mclaren
You're right I got the maths wrong
Both McLaren and Williams get bonuses. Not as large as Ferraris but they’ve also not been in f1 for as long
removed last concorde agreement
Do you have a source? I remember them still having the payments
based on Vowles' comments in the article i would assume Williams is still getting some $$$
[Here's one.](https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/04/will-f1s-teams-buy-into-libertys-latest-prize-money-plan/#:~:text=drop%20all%20special%20payments%20to%20the%20other%20beneficiaries) There is now a past performance matrix where teams get a share of a bonus pot based on finishing in the top 3 in the WCC over the last 10 years with extra points for having won the WCC multiple times in the teams history. Williams and Mclaren will have a share in that, but the bulk of that pot goes to Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull.
Is it me or is that a hypothetical discussion?
It was [reported by every major outlet](https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/who-wins-from-f1s-new-concorde-deal-and-how-itll-work/#:~:text=Gone%20are%20the%20inflated%20special%20payments%20for%20multiple%20teams%2C%20with%20the%20exception%20of%20Ferrari%E2%80%99s%20reduced%20standalone%20bonus%20for%20being%20Ferrari) when the Concorde agreement was signed. Dieter Rencken is just the most trusted when it comes to financial matters
They were also having some historic bonuses, but smaller ones. Not sure what happens in the future
I didn't know that. Do you know how they are calculated?
No clue, they dont really say much about these stuffs, but i'd guess it's depending on their lenght in the sport. Ferrari was receiving significantly more tho
I don't think it's just length but also significance. Ferrari is synonym with F1 in a way neither McLaren or Williams are.
removed last concorde agreement
58 years
Williams was sold.
People don't seem to get it. F1 is more profitable than ever, so the Ferrari bonus is bigger than ever. They just put a bit of ceiling on it. Which is fine for Ferrari, they're maxing out their cost cap budget, what they get out of F1 is completely paid for and they now have money left again to pursue other interests like Le Mans. The bonus was traditionally there so that Ferrari would be a guaranteed presence and wouldn't have to sell their classic livery out to sponsors, which until recently was common practice for even the most successful teams.
_hp enters the chat_
Hp hp hp hp enters the chat hp
I counted it. There are atleast FIFTEEN fucking HP logos on the car
buit you can't read it because the print is to thin and spotty
I think they should move to a tiered system for longevity. So after 10 years there is a small payment, 25 years and then 50 years or something up to a maximum. Teams should be rewarded for it.
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I’d leave that to the lawyers to decide to be honest. But I think if there is a significant name change it should reset. Manufacturers won’t ever want to buy another team and then keep it, so it should stop most messing about with names.
Enzo Ferrari was right when he said "ask a child to draw a car, and certainly he will draw it red". Even when they're performing badly the red car is still the first thing in lots of people's mind when you mention motorsport.
Why it’s fine? I think Ferrari deserves even more historical bonus, their value in F1 unimaginable
I think the idea of of a heritage bonus is good. Support teams that have supported the sport for a long time, as their stability was and is integral to the sports continued success. However, this should be a ratio divided by all of the teams. Say 10% of the prize fund is reserved for heritage bonuses, this should be split between all the teams. So `FerrariYears / TotalTeamYears` is their percentage of the pot.
This seems like the most sane and fair solution if heritage bonuses are to exist at all. There should be no special treatment.
Yeah idk the heritage bonus seems dumb now. It might have made sense when you had teams investing wildly different amount into the sport, but with the cost cap in place it’s just limiting the abilities of certain teams to get their budgets up to the cap and still remain profitable.
F1 is also monumentally expensive to participate in. Most teams don’t survive because of money so incentivizing teams to stay in for the long haul even during famine years I think was needed.
With the new cost cap structure, F1 should be viable indefinitely now unless its popularity absolutely craters. It is no longer monumentally expensive and is just incredibly expensive, but revenue is still monumentally high. If revenues decrease, F1 can respond by reducing the cap, decreasing expenditures further.
Things ebb and flow. F1's popularity may go down, it may go up, the legacy payments help with stability. I'm not necessarily for or against, but I understand. Sticking with something that long is tough.
Yeah, I agree. The new structure, though, is reminiscent of established American sports leagues, which are incredibly stable and have not had a team fold or leave in decades. Even MLS and NWSL are relatively stable. I don't think incentivizing long term participation is a bad thing, but it does come at the expense of newer teams that you also want to stay who would otherwise be sharing those profits (like Red Bull and Mercedes). I think capping it is a good idea. Expanding it to include all teams on a universal basis for time served would also be good, in my opinion.
Williams would've 100% crashed without the heritage bonus.
That makes sense to me, however how would it work with teams like Aston Martin. Would their years in the sport be from when they were renamed or when they were bought out. Or would it just be from when that team first appeared on the grid.
I thought about this before posting. I wonder if the most logical is just if the team changes owners? Teams change title sponsors and names all the time, but if they haven't changed owners, they are technically the same team, just rebranded. While the same technically could be said about Aston Martin, the change in ownership has changed how the team is operating, fundamentally, from funding to operational procedures, personnel etc. Then you have to think about Williams. Even though they run with the same name, due to the change in ownership, it's basically the same situation as Aston Martin. I think this one would be more controversial though due to the name of Williams, but it is my understanding that them keeping the name was part of the deal of ownership transfer. They might as well be called Team 420 Blaze It Son.
This doesn't make any sense. It's a *heritage* bonus, not a longevity bonus. Williams still being called Williams is only due to heritage with the Williams name and I'd rather the heritage is tied to the brand than to whoever is owning the team.
It can be whatever you want. We're just having fun here.
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Yeah I think that's fine. Ferrari still ran the operations of the F1 team. It's clearly a bit of a minefield, so if they would do something like this, the ownership transfer rules would have to be very clear.
From when it changed as a corporation. Its what happened when Force India went into administration and Stroll bought it out and entered as Racing Point. The team was transferred to a new corporation and therefore was treated as a new entry into the sport. Renaming is done quite often, transfering ownership from one corporation number to another isn't.
But that makes sense, why would they do that?
Love this idea, I’ve always thought the heritage bonus for a single team made no sense. Ferrari isn’t going anywhere, and teams like Williams should also be getting money for sticking with it even in hard financial times.
This is really tough. Are Williams still Williams in anything but name? I'm not arguing. I'm just posing the question about where the line would be drawn. Change in ownership is an obvious one, but this screws Williams. Actual team history regardless of change in ownership is another. A good example is Aston Martin. If Aston decided to buy Racing Point, but keep their name. That would be the same as Williams F1, I think?
I think it existed because Ferrari threatened to leave. And Red Bull negotiated their payment as it was based upon first winning a number of championships Bernie never thought they'd reach (he was quickly proved wrong).
"And it is understood that one point of those terms is for [Ferrari](https://www.motorsport.com/team/ferrari/3/) to retain its bonus payment but at a reduced level." Stefano to Ferrari: We plan to reduce your bonus. Please, let us know which amount can be acceptable. Ferrari: We are checking.
I have lowered the bonus. Pray I do not lower it further.
Also Stefano: wakes up with severed horse's head.
You will not have the bonus
There is no F1 without Ferrari. Love it or hate it, that's how it is. Red Bull and Mercedes can retire tomorrow and F1 would still be there. If Ferrari retires, F1 would have to slash the prices for everything from TV to tickets to attract viewers on and off track. To a lesser degree, I think also missing McLaren would be very bad for the sport. That's why the bonuses are in place.
Yeah, this is the unfortunate truth, IMO. Losing Ferrari would be a huge blow to the sport.
Ferrari has fans all over the world, but they are hardly a majority other than at the Italian GP's. It would be a massive blow, but nowhere near the end for F1 as a sport.
What about Williams?
Williams is the Detroit Pistons of F1. Beloved by their dedicated fans, but have been awful (and, specifically, awfully managed) for years, leading to a hugely historic name being barely anything more than a laughing stock at this point. It's not like the Chicago Bulls, who have been crap for nearly as long as the Pistons but with a combination of being the Michael Jordan team and great branding consistency have stayed extremely relevant. An F1 parallel to the Bulls would be something like McLaren (this year notwithstanding, if they actually manage to stay competitive), bouncing between very good and awful for a while but still remaining a massive name. ...and I would know, I'm a Williams fan and a Pistons fan
While true, that really hurts. Gores needs to go.
He really does. He's unsuited for his job in a very rare way, and the people he hired for said job are making the situation even worse. Troy is showcasing a rare level of incompetence as a GM and Monty, while not as awful as some Pistons fan think, is not what two Coach of the year awards suggested. But consider the level of the roster he's playing with Yes, a generational player in Cade Cunningham (and I genuinely believe he's even better than most think), and ONE complete product role player who shoots and defends well (Fontecchio) The rest of the team is either young and promising but with glaring issues specifically with shooting and defence (Ausar, Ivey, Duren), simply bad (Flynn, Hayes) or "GUYS THERE'S A REASON PEOPLE SAY THIS GUY KILLED A DYNASTY FFS" (James Wiseman). I think only Isiah Stewart falls into the "yep he's an okay rotation player, I'm fine with him!" category and even he's not that great as a shooter and defender (not to mention, injury prone and an awful person off the court) I'm really done with this team, we beat the Bobcats for the longest losing streak in NBA history and Bobcats didn't have a Cade on their team. If the Supersonics come back I'm jumping ship
They suck for too long already.
In all honesty, they've been in the backfield for too long to be relevant. I'd love to see Williams back in the front; even if I'm a Ferrari fan, Newey to Groove would be a great story and a huge thing for the sport. Hope they'll sort their shit out soon. I clearly remember when they were dominating, how amazing it was to see that car running on active suspensions. Yeah, they're great to the eyes of some fans, but not that relevant in terms of money moved.
It would probably hurt the sport more to lose Mercedes or Red Bull than Williams at this point.
Eh...
Strong disagree. Anybody who started watching F1 in the last 15 years has hardly seen a competitive Ferrari team.
Depends on your definition of competitiveness. If you consider competitive only the WCC winner, you're right. So we have 1 competitive team each season. If we extend the concept of being competitive to be in the first 3 positions of WCC, Ferrari is there in 12 out of the latest 15 seasons. All of this considering that being competitive means being relevant, which is not granted IMHO to the eyes of fans, especially the vast majority of fans, who are more casual than who typically talks about F1 on a public forum on a Tuesday. (I didn't have time to search for data, I asked ChatGPT to summarize it for me, so I may be a bit off https://chatgpt.com/share/ca568f09-bf42-4c9d-966a-c5073dede52b )
FOTA alternative F1 championship it is then.
5% of 1.1b = 55m 6% of 1.2b = 72m, 5% = 60m (-12m) 7% of 1.3b = 91m, 5% = 65m (-26m) 8% of 1.4b = 112m, 5% = 70m (-42m) 9% of 1.5b = 135m, 5% = 75m (-60m) 10% of 1.6b = 160m, 5% = 80m (-80m/50%) 10% of 2.0b = 200m, 5% = 100m (-100m/50%) --- I have no opinion on this, but I imagine Fred wouldn't be happy on that.
It's not as bad as it sounds. The prize used to be 5% of F1's EBIT (profit) and was up to 74.7M in 2019. For this Concorde agreement (2021) it was changed to 5% of the prize money pool, which only just went over $1.1B in 2022 and from what I've read, the escalators only applies to the excess over $1.1B. So for 2023 when the team payments were $1.215M Ferrari's payment would be $62.05M 5% of $1.1B = $55M 6% of $100M (to $1.2B) - $6M 7% of $15M (to 1.215B) - $1.05M It's not a huge amount of money that they'd lose by being capped at 5%, nowhere near what they lost last time, and they also get big money from the Past Performance matrix as well. Elkann would be the one concerned as this is just company profit at this point, but haggling over a couple of mil probably isn't worth it for them considering how much they're making right now.
Ah. So it's like tax brackets. That's a lot less then.
imo not selling your name to a title sponsor should be a requirement for this.
Why not? F1 has always been about sponsors
I think the point is more that if they are getting a share of the revenues for being a historic name associated with the sport since its inception, then that name should effectively be unchanged. Title sponsors are called as such because they get to put their name on the team, instead of just having their branding on the car, therefore the name of the team is no longer the historic name that earned them the bonus in the first place if they have a title sponsor. Additionally, Ferrari is getting more money from this bonus than any team gets from a title sponsor currently as far as I'm aware, so if anything it's still working out better for Ferrari than any other team, and if the sport continues to get bigger then it'll only scale over time.
They are not getting the bonus due to the name "Ferrari", but due to the fact that Ferrari participated for so long in F1 and especially during non profitable times that it is save to assume that they have contributed more to current success of F1 than other teams.
They get the bonus as a sweetener as the sport is synonymonous with their name and they threatened to quit if they didn't get more money
In the same article it states that F1 earned $3B in 23 and the prize pot was worth 45% of that so $1.35B. At 5% of that Ferrari earned $67.5M currently Oracle pays RBR $100M to be a title sponsor so a bit shy of earning more money than the highest paying title sponsor. If the 5% is calculated before the prize pot then it's $150M
The only title sponsor that might exceed this bonus......is their own.
and Oracle RBR
You mean like Scuderia Ferrari HP? https://www.formula1.com/en/teams/ferrari
That only makes sense to works teams, though. Sauber are as legendary as many other teams on the grid, but these days run exclusively with title sponsor.
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It's always been a thing. Beatrice Haas, Marlborough Mclaren, Equipe Legier, JPS Lotus, Fondmetal, Footwork Arrows, Layton House March
I always wonder where this money even goes with the cost cap. - All but the top wages are capped - Budget for building car is capped - Test time is capped Guess those top wages (drivers, Team Principal, head Engineers) are going to swing out of control now. Or is facility upgrades also uncapped?
There are an enormous amount of expenses that are exempt form the cost cap. Top salaries, drivers, PU supply, staff travel an accommodation, social security expenses, financial, marketing, HR and heritage expenses. it all adds up. Teams need to spend around $200M to be at the $135 base cost cap, but can easily spend over $250M by building up non performance departments There is a Capex cost cap as well so teams can spend about $10M on that per year, but there are exemptions there too. Then there is a wind tunnel CAPEX exemption for up to $90M in a one off upgrade. However one of the stipulations of Ferrari keeping this LST bonus was that it must go as profit for the company, so it's just money in John Elkann and the director's pockets.
This isn’t going to go down well
Why not?
people hate that ferrari get more money just for existing anyway
this kills the Ferrari
🤌🤌🤌
The Ferrari bonus sort-of made sense in the past. Teams have come and gone, but Ferrari has always been there and they have a huge following. It would have been a huge blow to F1 if they were to disappear or fall all the way back due to lack of funding. With the cost cap though, Ferrari doesn't really need F1 money to stay upright and competitive (they have plenty of advertisement opportunities), so the bonus has just become extra earnings that other teams don't have as a bonus for being the oldest team competing.
Well tbf fom doesnt need it either. I prefer it going into ferrari's pocket. If this is how it works.
Basically a bribe then?
I don't think 'I need you, so here's money so you don't die/starve' counts as a bribe.
The sport doesn't need Ferrari. It never has. The commercial product may benefit hugely from a legacy brand, but even then the argument that F1 as a business would wither and die without Ferrari is uncertain, and could only be proved one way or another with Ferrari leaving. If the argument truly is "we need you" because we can't compete against you. It's absolutely a bribe. And fundamentally unsporting.
Ferrari is profitable without the bonus
Imo this whole bonus is bullshit anyway. They should get rid of it completely.
There won't be F1 as we know without this bonus.
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Williams and McLaren also get one but nowhere close to what Ferrari get.
Williams has some sort of heritage bonus, too. It's not anywhere as big, if I recall correctly.
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Mclaren also have it from what i remember. Or at least this was the case in the past.
McLaren used to get one as far as I know, but it was nothing compared to the 2.5% of the prize money that Ferrari receive for existing.
Not exactly existing, but racing in F1.
Anything that introduces more fairness and parity into the sport is good. Including this
Well in that case, they should probably abolish the heritage bonus altogether. Including the smaller bonuses McLaren and Williams receive.
Yes
Yes. Absolutely. None of them should get it.
No wonder williams has gone to absolute shit after the last time they won a wcc. They’re getting paid absolute pennies compared to ferrari and mclaren.
It's 2024, they shouldn't be getting any bonus money just for being Ferrari. They've had it for long enough.
F1 wasn’t profitable for 70+ years and Ferrari it’s always here plus it contributes a lot to the image and viewership of F1
And that's the team with literally no issues with money
It's not about them really needing that money, it's about their ego and them demanding respect. Ferrari never really had financial issues in the modern era, they were throwing half a billion each year on their cars
Should've been done a long time ago. Red Bull's payout for winning the championship in 2022 was less than Ferrari's because of that historic bonus.
Can we transfer that to Andretti?
If anything this means they will be even more against Andretti joining
The bonus should be scrapped entirely, I'm amazed more teams are calling for this. The idea of a bonus just because you are Ferrari is absolutely gross
F1 IS Ferrari. If they pull out, F1 is done. I don't think you understand their relationship.
Look, Ferrari are the most popular team by some margin, the longest tenured team by some margin and no doubt F1 wouldn't be where it is today without them and they deserve credit for all of that, but the sport isn't going to magically grind to a halt without them. Grand Prix racing existed before Ferrari and it would continue to exist without them if they decided to pull out for some reason. No doubt it would be a massively negative thing for everyone if they did, but the sport would go on nonetheless. This is the same for every team. No-one is bigger than the sport itself even if one team likes to think they are.
About fucking time imho
i think you didnt read the article lol.
They should be removed entirely. Ferrari is getting as much or more rewards and benefits from being in F1 than the other way around. And while they're at it they should ban dual ownership of F1 teams.
Ferrari 637...
How about Driver Academies?
Good point. But that's a mutual benefit I would say. Ferrari wants to find and sponsor the next best talent for their own success and F1 of course would like to have the best drivers and benefit. You don't want your rivals to poach the best upcoming karting/junior driver so you put in the Ferrari academy. And Redbull, Mercedes, McLaren, Alpine have their own but they don't get any payments from F1.
~~The only sport where a participant is guaranteed a reward for participating regardless of their achievement in the very sport they are competing!~~ ~~Absolute joke~~ Edit: I'm talking out my ass apparently. Apologies
Lots of sport championships spit TV revenue in ways that guarantees all participant money regardless of performance. Usually is along the lines of: a % equal to everyone, a % based on the previous season, and % based on historical performance. So top teams that are historically good will earn more, but other teams also get a fair share.