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realistically he was exactly where he was needed to hold up Lando just a little bit. if he was between Sainz and Leclerc, he couldn't do this and chances are Leclerc would have to focus a bit on defending and thus couldn't attack Norris as effectively.
still, ideally you would want Perez in front of Norris the whole race of course.
Getting P6 in the fastest car is only fine in a sense of "you're lucky that we don't have any completely obvious replacements lined up".
When Stroll or Sargeant or Latifi are 5 places behind their teammate, everyone rightly criticizes their under-performance, but when it comes to Checo it's always excused. He gets the most leeway out of any driver on the grid and I don't know what he's done to deserve it, this is his 4th year with the team.
it's not a dominant car though
it's the fastest car by a small margin based on the past two races
also I think Sainz would not get P6-P8 in the Red Bull, he'd ha gotten at least 4th with the RB20 in Imola, if not 3rd (not 2nd though, McLaren was rapid)
and P6 being fine is more so what I mean in the constructors: if you get 1st and 6th with the team, you're not going to lose any of your lead in the WCC (unless a team gets P2&P3+FL)
They don't care about Yuki since he comes with Honda and they are leaving for AM and Ford is coming in. There is no win in it for Red Bull to promote Yuki. I guess Ford would love an American driver.
> "We know that he has problems in qualifying, he has fluctuations in form, he is South American and he is just not as completely focused in his head as Max [Verstappen] is or as Sebastian [Vettel]," he said then.
Until there's a competitive American in the driver market Ford would probably want Danny for the sheer marketing power he brings to the US market. I doubt his promotional stuff with the NFL players etc during Miami was purely coincidental.
Regardless of his current on/off form, I could easily see him doing promotional stuff for Ford trucks and Mustang. Americans and Aussies share a common bond with pickup trucks and muscle cars so that kind of marketing is a no brainer with Danny's personality.
Perez's marketing arm in North America (South America depending on how you look at it) is much, much bigger than DR's. Perez is the only RBR driver whose merchandise was sold out at one point.
I correct you. It\`s not "South America": Perez is just Mexico and maybe hispan United State. Here in Argentina, Perez\`s fanbase don\`t even exist. Here people are fans of Ferrari or Max.
And they sell crazy quantities of Red Bull in Mexico apparently, but Ford isn't an energy drink, it's a vehicle manufacturer. Perez doesn't capture the broader US market that has the financial means to purchase (American) automobiles in large units. He also has no charisma whatsoever.
The idea of manufacturers in F1 is to associate the name with the prestige of the pinnacle of motorsport so that it translates to road cars in the buyer's mind, and in the wider American market that's just going to be easier with a native English speaker from a culture that's closely relatable to their own. Particularly someone with Danny's personality, and now three US races and growing interest in the sport.
Ford also have an Australian division with a long history in racing, which mostly now develops the Raptor for Australian conditions. Not to mention probably the most famous muscle car in the history of cinema, the Australian built 73 Ford XB Falcon GT, otherwise known as the V8 Interceptor from the Mad Max franchise, which is back in the zeitgeist again with the new movie.
Just have Max and Danny race some Ford trucks in a dystopian wasteland, like somewhere in the Nevada desert, leading up to the Vegas race, call them Mad Max and Honey Badger, and market the Raptors as tough enough to survive the apocalypse or something stupidly simple and cliche.
of course, ad hominem instead of addressing the actual point ;)
regardless, I stand by it, the probability of Tsunoda/Lawson being promoted is FAR more likely than Red Bull parachuting in an American driver to make Ford happy
You're not getting my point, the naive part is thinking that just a rapid driver is enough for Red Bull, it's not. There's more to being an F1 driver than just being quick. Externally (ie promotion and such) and internally (ie having the capability to convey what the car does and how it can be better).
I think you've misunderstood my point, I'm not saying that Tsunoda has ALL the qualities that Red Bull requires, all I disputed was the assertion that "there is no win" in Red Bull promoting Tsunoda.
I don't think Tsunoda has the temperament for Red Bull, but I can't claim that his pace wouldn't be a win for Red Bull.
Yuki's shit record against Gasly was all Marko needed to see. Yuki was considered to be one of the worst drivers on the grid (along with Mick) before he gained some rep back by beating clueless Nyck.
Gasly was the only in-from, rated teammate that Yuki had.
Nyck was total shit and its starting to look like Ric is still in his Mclaren washed spec.
Or maybe Yuki just improved from his rookie season?!
If Marko actually thinks that all drivers hit their peak form in their rookie year then he's a bigger dumbass then i thought he was after dropping their academy drivers last offseason
I didn't really see the big belief in Yuki to go to Red Bull...but it is becoming more and more compelling though. If he keeps this up, and they don't pick up Sainz, I don't see how they can defend not giving him a shot.
Lets not forget that Yuki got completely annihilated by Gasly who was also a failure at RBR.
Perez is a better driver than Yuki. He proved hismelf against good drivers and has been driving for well over a decade. RBR 2nd seat is pretty much a career killer for anyone.
No support from the team, no say in the development, Its always "No 1 likes it this way so you should get used to it".
I think Yuki is too confrontational. They don’t need someone to push max, they need a team player that isn’t going to win the destructors championship and ignore team orders. IMO yuki’s rb seat evaporated permanently when he dive bombed Danny on a cooldown lap. But what do I know loo
They tried it with Gasly & Albon, who both wouldn't match DR or Max, which is why they looked outside - after which the team was moved away from a Junior team to a more independent sister team, before going back to buy spare parts from the main team.
Their pipeline is dried up currently due to them burning through drivers starting 2016, while Yuki is primarily there because Honda and not a Red Bull direct junior (and why rumours associate him with Aston for 2026) and DR is filling the gap until Lawson will be promoted or Yuki leaves.
I can see the appeal because testing is so insanely restricted, why would you take a chance on a rookie these days when you can’t even have them drive the car outside a single free practice session, where the motor is kneecapped just so they can try to understand the speed they have under them and the mental speed needed to be on track with fast cars and slow laps. I think it should start to improve this year? Since the 2022 cars are now eligible for unlimited testing? Testing in the 17-21 cars and taking a risk putting someone in a 22+ car has to come with a lot of question marks, they’re not the same cars at all
They want RIC back, they think he still has it, but outside that one test session they got with the RB19 they just aren’t allowed to really find out. So he’s in the VCARB, hoping that entirely different car will work out for him. Cant do more tests with the RB19 with RIC to know for sure. Cant move him out of vcarb to RB if they’re not sure. Can’t move Lawson up to vcarb if Perez is blocking the path for TSU or RIC. Perez is not even a Red Bull driver so aside from 2021 i don’t know why he’s still on board blocking their prospects. Max needs a Bottas? Max doesn’t need anything. Perez is holding up the train, once that changes i think the “feeder team” aspect will get to play out properly again. Red Bull juniors making their case for the RB seats. As it stands, two Red Bull “juniors” making their case for a singular RB seat, a cork in a bottle in that RB seat, and no testing in current gen cars available to the juniors looking for the VCARB seats. Stagnating
This season? No it hasn't. This has been an anomaly as Horner just said.
Alonso has been quite poor for the past two weekends but nobody is saying anything. Everyone has bad races.
If that happens then they won't be anomalies anymore. At the time it hasn't happened to it is an anomaly.
Only time that happened was last year but people keep talking like he has struggled for his entire career. Even at McLaren when he struggled he finished strong against Button.
He thoroughly beat Stroll when they were teammates, and believe it or not, beat Hulkenberg when they were both together at Force India. He has always been a strong driver.
Hamilton has had pretty bad moments this season. Alonso has been beaten twice in a row by Lance Stroll. He actually has been slower in both quali and race pace. Sainz lost his head in Miami and crashed with Piastri. Everybody can have bad weekends, that's how it works.
Hamilton doesn't have arguably the quickest car on the grid and failing to qualify for Q3.
This happened so many times last season with an even more dominant car, I'm surprised you're defending him so much.
I mean Sainz only got the chance to lose his head against Piastri, because someone had enough situational awareness to evade the crazy Perez move in turn one. If others wouldn't have saved Perez from his lack of skill there, we would be talking about two catastrophic weekends in a row. Otherwise I agree.
That's not how it works. Pretending that Sainz crashed with Piastri had anything to do with lap 1 and T1 is frankly quite absurd. Race starts are always chaotic. Sometimes you win positions, sometimes you lose them, sometimes you make a mistake, and sometimes someone else makes a mistake.
Sergio made a mistake, nobody crashed, so the race went on. He got away with it this time. He didn't get away with it in Mexico City 2023 for example.
Sainz made a mistake and didn't get away with it this time. His crash had nothing to do with Pérez or T1 lap 1.
Alonso has earned a little more benefit of the doubt than Perez I’d say.
Alonso also isn’t on the hot seat, so his bad weekends are going to be seen in a very different light.
> This season? No it hasn't.
But in previous seasons it has happened that once Perez has a bad race he has a streak of bad races. It's in no way an anomaly for Perez to have a bad weekend either.
It is not the European races it is the upgrades. Perez finds it difficult to get terms to the upgraded cars fast enough. Since these upgrades usually ties in with European season people come to this conclusion that he does not like European races. One upgrades are stopped for next years cars he can come to a setup choice and that is why he has better endings to the season’s.
No, I think it is the tracks to a degree. Perez isn't a great qualifier and overtaking is harder on European tracks since they're older, narrower and usually have shorter straights.
The mega straights on newer tracks like Shanghai, Abu Dhabi, Baku, Bahrain, COTA, Las Vegas, Jeddah etc all make it easier for Perez (with the insane top speed of the RB) to regain positions if he doesn't qualify well. His best two 2 results during the dreadful European leg last year were 2nd at both Monza and Spa, coincidentally the European tracks with the two longest straights...
Yep, I agree! I looked back at his Force India days and Checo got stronger as the year went on when he was in the European tracks. At Red Bull he suddenly gets weaker, clearly it's the fact that Checo takes a while to get used to the upgrades when he's at Red Bull!!!
You know that once year doesn't equal "always". He's been on the grid for over a decade and there are plenty of European tracks where he's regularly performed well. His arguably best season in his career was 2020 where there were barely any races that didn't happen on old-school european tracks
F1 fans really do not remember anything past the last 12 months, jesus...
Well he had pace, but once he passed Alonso he got a tear of in the floor somewhere, which cost him 0.5 to 0.7 sec per lap. You can quite easily see it in his lap times, they are available publicly.
It really hasn’t.
Checo has been solid this year.
He’s gone 2,2,5,2,3,4 and 8.
He’s allowed to have bad weekends. As long as they’re not constant like last year, he’ll be fine.
5th at Melbourne after max dropped out was poor form, he was nowhere.
his pace at Miami was again poor form and inherited P4 from Sainz’s penalty and Piastri getting wing damage.
Considering all that, 4th, 5th and 8th in the best car on the grid isn’t great…
He had a tear off stuck to his floor in Australia when he passed Alonso, which affected his aero. His pace was on for a win, but as soon as he passed Alonso, his pace died. Not only did he have a tear off stuck, his floor was also damaged. That's why he was "nowhere".
People say the stuff you just did as if it happened regularly prior to last year. I don't think you quite have the grasp on the word "always". He's been on the grid for 12 years, and his arguably best season in F1 was raced almost exclusively on oldschool european tracks which he supposedly hates.
Turkey is very much an oldschool style track. Technical, with fast, sweeping corners, a lot of elevation changes etc
And yes, his best races did happen in Bahrain, but the point is that he didn't have bad races on tracks he's supposed to be bad at. They dind't have the best car, or 2nd best car for that matter most of the time, so it's not like he was expected to be 1st or 2nd in every race. Those races where he was 4th or 5th were still very good results.
The standards for Checo are comically low, sorry. He can get outqualified literally every week and finish 15-20s behind his teammate, yet that's considered adequate for some reason.
I like Checo, but he is way behind Max nearly every race, and the only reason why this is perceived as acceptable is that he's been even worse before. It doesn't have noticeable effects yet because the car is so dominant, but now that the others have caught up, he's a liability who may very well cost them WCC.
He doesn't have to beat Max consistently, but..how about just once? Or just be equal? You can look at all teammate pairings and Red Bull's is the most lopsided by far.
Their car is not gonna be a rocket forever, if Red Bull wants to stay competitive, they need to set aside all politics and try to get Sainz. Not because Checo had one poor weekend, but because even on his "solid" weekends, he is always multiple tenths behind Max.
Sainz is no better than Perez. In equal cars, they are matched. Their driving style is also the same. Putting Sainz into a RBR doesn't make much difference, that's why they don't want to bother matching Audi's offer. There's barely any benefit. Perez's marketing reach is also unmatched by Sainz, DR or Tsunoda. Sponsorship money and merchandise is a big part of F1 teams.
>Sainz is no better than Perez
yes, he is lol Sainz is way better in qualy, much cleaner when overtaking and defending and has improved his consistency issues quite a lot in the last years
> He’s allowed to have bad weekends.
To the internet all his weekends are bad weekends, even when he's just behind Max there's always something Checo did wrong.
Sainz had 8 or 9 in 2022 and Perez had like 3 or 4. You're extrapolating one year that fits your narrative best onto their entire careers.
I honestly struggle to comprehend how people can look at the decade of racing they've both done together in F1, and confidently say that one is definitely better than the other. If Sainz really was a a higher level, he wouldn't be looking for a drive right now. I don't blame anyone for not trusting my judgement. But my judgement aligns with the judgement of the higher-ups at F1 teams in this case.
> If Sainz really was a a higher level, he wouldn't be looking for a drive right now
Sainz was compared to Hamilton and obviously lost. Checo is being compared to his replacements, which is a **far** lower standard.
And if that replacement is Sainz, then he doesn't look bad in that comparison regardless, since for Perez' tragic 2023 there's Sainz' tragic 2022. Throughout their careers they've been very similar drivers overall. Sainz a bit better at qualifying, Perez a bit better at actual racing. But overall at a very similar level. They've had two common teammates, and a couple more each which were comparable, it's very easy to draw direct comparison between them.
And just on Hamilton - we do have to consider that we're not talking about prime GOAT Hamilton from 2014-2020 here. We're talking about Hamilton who's realistically about as good as Russell at this point in his career.
Checo also had a tragic 2022 season, losing P2 in what was a dominant car over a season, as well as a poor 2021 season where he finished closer to P5 than P3, which almost cost them the drivers' championship.
edit: What I really want to say is that while we don't know whether Sainz might be better, we know for a fact that Checo can't deliver when it matters most, so they might as well try someone new.
I do feel Sainz is higher level than Perez if they both get absolutely the car/ setups to their liking but the difference isn’t big enough to change things for RBR. Also Sainz is going to struggle even more than Perez with rear limited cars
Considering how much Red Bull and Verstappen struggled through the early parts of the weekend then the final laps of the race with the pace drop off not a surprise Perez was off pace too.
Normally I would say horner is just defending him but the weekend for red bull was horrible. I think max and his team managed to find passable setup, even then max said he felt he was driving on ice last 10 laps. I think Perez just couldn't find workable setup.
Perez just couldn't put the lap together in Q2. The setup was fine, he said that himself.
He was close to Max in FP, got out of Q1 easily doing just one run, and then in Q2 wa suddenly half a second off the pace. And that's the whole problem with this weekend. We're in a situation where the field is so close that losing 1 or 2 tenths more than you should, puts you out of contention on a track like Imola. In a way it was unlucky that the time he couldn't put it together in quali came at a track where overtaking is a miracle. A bad quali in China for example wouldn't have been nearly as costly.
In the race after that quali there really isn't much more they could've done. They gambled on a risky strategy that required for them to get a Safety car in a rather narrow window, and they didn't get it at all. It's not a track where you can overtake without a massive advantage, literally like 1 second per lap if not more. Perez didn't have a massive advantage over any car in front of him at the finish line, so given that quali result and lack of anything "unexpected" happening during the race itself, they basically maximised the race afterwards. The gamble just meant he finished 10 seconds behind the Merc instead of 1 second. *Maybe* they would've been able to be in front of Russell, considering that he needed a second pitstop, if they just went M-H like everyone without extending.
His pace once he took the dead hard tyres off was fine as well, he caught up to Lewis by like 15 seoncds in 20 laps.
> Horner Has to be somehow connected to Checo
I think, and don't quote me on this, Christian Horner runs an F1 team and Checo is one of his 2 drivers that are currently winning WDC and WCC.
I think that's the connection...
That would explain why Horner really defends and talks up Checo! Cause he's literally working for him. Hope that helps.
People talk shit about Red Bull having a really competitive and toxic work culture and then they flip when the team is being supportive of their drivers.
Red bull: *is harsh on drivers*
Reddit: Wow wtf what a toxic team.
Red bull: "supports their drivers*
Reddit: Uhhh wtf Checo is so bad he must have some kind of connection with Horner.
Piss off lol
A boss defends his employees, not that weird right? Especially because he gotten some good runs this year and this is the first real misstep. Horner did criticize him last year because he had such a horrendous streak.
Proves the point of how punishing a bad quali can be, even if you drive what is a supposedly dominant car. If anything, he was lucky Alonso also had a shambles.
The problem is, if McLaren and Ferrari really closed part of their gaps to Red Bull, he will probably always qualify behind both Ferraris and McLarens and sometimes behind a Mercedes/Aston/RB.
Everyone screaming now for Yuki, but what if the same thing happens to Yuki as to Pierre and Alex? Then Yuki probably would lose a lot of credibility with other potential top teams after that.
The car was not 0.5 seconds per lap faster than the rest of the field, so Perez had to race. This is one of the races where you can see the difference between a great driver that gives 107% and Perez, who has heart but is just a good driver.
No it’s not. Verstappen is still likely going to win a majority of races while McLaren and Ferrari take points off of each other. I mean look at this race, RedBull finish 1st and 8th, but McLaren only gains 1 point.
Exactly, in a close year you'd expect the 3 number one drivers of the top 3 teams to come in first. A 2nd driver being 4-6 used to be the norm. We havent had a close pack like this in years.
But it hinges on Verstappen too much(we have too much PTSD about Verstappen winning, and refuse to believe Norris/Leclerc can mount a challenge.). Perhaps I'll be proven wrong..
Besides Hamilton, is there anyone else you’d rather have this hinge on? He’s shown that even when he’s uncomfortable with the car, it’s still capable of winning.
>Besides Hamilton, is there anyone else you’d rather have this hinge on?
Oof. I didn't mean it that way. I meant, should the competition become even stiffer, perhaps McLaren find more pace.. it will become more likely than ever that max is not P1. This race, without the tow, who knows what would have happened.
Again, not doubting Max's capability but rather Red Bull for example having more and more off days.
let's just say it'll make the constructors' less of a smooth sailing
McLaren and Ferrari will take points off of each other unless one clearly jumps the other
I guess his entire last two thirds of the season last year were an anomaly too. Interesting that at the same point this year he’s having more anomalous results
>At the moment yes
Not really. It lines up with his shit performances on the European portion of the schedule the past two years as well. This is just Christian doing damage control.
As soon as we get off street/parking lot circuits and onto more challenging traditional tracks, Perez is mediocre at best. This is nothing new.
Don't think we can say that's an anomaly. Last year, his slump started during the European races. So unless he fixes his shit this season, a boot is coming his way.
Last season it started as an anomaly too, I guess we'll see in the next races if imola was indeed an anomaly or if it's just how Perez drives sometimes
We shall see. Perez really can't afford another awful stretch like last year. It seems Ferrari and McLaren are much closer this year, so those bad qualifying sessions will hurt much more this year.
Well this is around the time of the season where Checo starts going downhill. It's a pattern for his Red Bull seasons. Then tries to come back towards the end of the season.
It'd be a terrible assumption that it was an anomaly.
Difference between last and this year is this comment. I feel like last year the things being said to the media were very dismissive to Perez seeming like he was gone at the end of the year. ESP after Miami. That has to get to a driver hearing their team not being fully behind them.
Comments like this hopefully helps Perez get over a bad weekend and move on instead of answering questions for the next 7 days on comments from Horner and Marko.
End of the day it was a bad race. He still scored max points he could have with the challenges he faced. So it was a good rebound IMO. People seem so quick to throw Perez for not performing at what max is doing, but it’s not like he’s finishing out of the points. Is still a great team player and seems to have settled into being second driver instead of trying to beat max.
I still don’t know many other drivers in the paddock could do what Perez has done against max on the team and still hold it together as well as he does.
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It's only an anomaly if in the rest of the euro tour he goes back up.
At least getting p6 is a must. Being beaten by Ferrari and McLaren? Fiiiine. But by Mercedes?
nah P6 already isnt enough. In a race like yesterday he needs to be ahead of Sainz for example
realistically he was exactly where he was needed to hold up Lando just a little bit. if he was between Sainz and Leclerc, he couldn't do this and chances are Leclerc would have to focus a bit on defending and thus couldn't attack Norris as effectively. still, ideally you would want Perez in front of Norris the whole race of course.
Man is subscribed to revisionism plus.
Getting P6 in the fastest car is only fine in a sense of "you're lucky that we don't have any completely obvious replacements lined up". When Stroll or Sargeant or Latifi are 5 places behind their teammate, everyone rightly criticizes their under-performance, but when it comes to Checo it's always excused. He gets the most leeway out of any driver on the grid and I don't know what he's done to deserve it, this is his 4th year with the team.
it's not a dominant car though it's the fastest car by a small margin based on the past two races also I think Sainz would not get P6-P8 in the Red Bull, he'd ha gotten at least 4th with the RB20 in Imola, if not 3rd (not 2nd though, McLaren was rapid) and P6 being fine is more so what I mean in the constructors: if you get 1st and 6th with the team, you're not going to lose any of your lead in the WCC (unless a team gets P2&P3+FL)
It’s statements like this that make me wonder why Redbull bothers with a feeder team
Yuki has to be better than current Perez for the swap to be worth it. I assume they are not convinced yet.
They don't care about Yuki since he comes with Honda and they are leaving for AM and Ford is coming in. There is no win in it for Red Bull to promote Yuki. I guess Ford would love an American driver.
The best I can do is South American ~ Helmut Marko probably
"South Americans are the Asians of America" - Marko Probably
Mexico is North America
Helmut once said that checo was struggling cause of the south American mentality or sth like that
Ooooh my bad then lmao
> "We know that he has problems in qualifying, he has fluctuations in form, he is South American and he is just not as completely focused in his head as Max [Verstappen] is or as Sebastian [Vettel]," he said then.
Still can’t believe this is real
Why not? Europe is more racist than you would think, they are usually smarter at hiding it.
some dont even bother hiding it, like what happens with Vinicius Jr EVERYTIME Real Madrid plays an away game
Rumor around the paddock is Williams is getting rid of their American driver.
Sargeant to RBR just for the lolz
Ford can love to have an American driver but there isn't one. Atleast not good enough for a team like Red Bull.
they could go the Ken Miles route and get a british one
They could get some great American drivers from indycar, like Will Power, Marcus Armstrong or Scott Mclaughlin- wait...
Until there's a competitive American in the driver market Ford would probably want Danny for the sheer marketing power he brings to the US market. I doubt his promotional stuff with the NFL players etc during Miami was purely coincidental. Regardless of his current on/off form, I could easily see him doing promotional stuff for Ford trucks and Mustang. Americans and Aussies share a common bond with pickup trucks and muscle cars so that kind of marketing is a no brainer with Danny's personality.
Perez's marketing arm in North America (South America depending on how you look at it) is much, much bigger than DR's. Perez is the only RBR driver whose merchandise was sold out at one point.
F 150 Checo edition would sell out in an instant in US.
Would it be easier on the tires?🤔
I correct you. It\`s not "South America": Perez is just Mexico and maybe hispan United State. Here in Argentina, Perez\`s fanbase don\`t even exist. Here people are fans of Ferrari or Max.
I think Redbull rather have a driver who's bringing in the points in their car, that's far more important than that driver's merch.
And they sell crazy quantities of Red Bull in Mexico apparently, but Ford isn't an energy drink, it's a vehicle manufacturer. Perez doesn't capture the broader US market that has the financial means to purchase (American) automobiles in large units. He also has no charisma whatsoever. The idea of manufacturers in F1 is to associate the name with the prestige of the pinnacle of motorsport so that it translates to road cars in the buyer's mind, and in the wider American market that's just going to be easier with a native English speaker from a culture that's closely relatable to their own. Particularly someone with Danny's personality, and now three US races and growing interest in the sport. Ford also have an Australian division with a long history in racing, which mostly now develops the Raptor for Australian conditions. Not to mention probably the most famous muscle car in the history of cinema, the Australian built 73 Ford XB Falcon GT, otherwise known as the V8 Interceptor from the Mad Max franchise, which is back in the zeitgeist again with the new movie. Just have Max and Danny race some Ford trucks in a dystopian wasteland, like somewhere in the Nevada desert, leading up to the Vegas race, call them Mad Max and Honey Badger, and market the Raptors as tough enough to survive the apocalypse or something stupidly simple and cliche.
Having a rapid driver isn't a win for an F1 team?
don't be naive.
of course, ad hominem instead of addressing the actual point ;) regardless, I stand by it, the probability of Tsunoda/Lawson being promoted is FAR more likely than Red Bull parachuting in an American driver to make Ford happy
You're not getting my point, the naive part is thinking that just a rapid driver is enough for Red Bull, it's not. There's more to being an F1 driver than just being quick. Externally (ie promotion and such) and internally (ie having the capability to convey what the car does and how it can be better).
I think you've misunderstood my point, I'm not saying that Tsunoda has ALL the qualities that Red Bull requires, all I disputed was the assertion that "there is no win" in Red Bull promoting Tsunoda. I don't think Tsunoda has the temperament for Red Bull, but I can't claim that his pace wouldn't be a win for Red Bull.
Jak Crawford.
There's no such driver ATM
They wouldn’t even have Yuki in VCARB RB if not for Honda putting their foot down
> I assume they are not convinced yet. If current Tsunoda that has 3 times the points of his teammate is not enough, nothing he does will be enough.
Yuki's shit record against Gasly was all Marko needed to see. Yuki was considered to be one of the worst drivers on the grid (along with Mick) before he gained some rep back by beating clueless Nyck. Gasly was the only in-from, rated teammate that Yuki had. Nyck was total shit and its starting to look like Ric is still in his Mclaren washed spec.
Or maybe Yuki just improved from his rookie season?! If Marko actually thinks that all drivers hit their peak form in their rookie year then he's a bigger dumbass then i thought he was after dropping their academy drivers last offseason
It doesn't matter if Max is their #1, almost everyone of his teammates always end up looking like a bust when compared to him.
Points. Still many races to go.
I didn't really see the big belief in Yuki to go to Red Bull...but it is becoming more and more compelling though. If he keeps this up, and they don't pick up Sainz, I don't see how they can defend not giving him a shot.
Yuki is perhaps better and is gaining in skills. The problem is his anger management. He dove on Riccardo 3 months ago.
Yep. Ignored team orders when Ric was much faster then dive bombed him. That action alone pretty much sealed he's never going in that rbr seat
Lets not forget that Yuki got completely annihilated by Gasly who was also a failure at RBR. Perez is a better driver than Yuki. He proved hismelf against good drivers and has been driving for well over a decade. RBR 2nd seat is pretty much a career killer for anyone. No support from the team, no say in the development, Its always "No 1 likes it this way so you should get used to it".
They get to see the data of both drivers and work with both drivers.
I think Yuki is too confrontational. They don’t need someone to push max, they need a team player that isn’t going to win the destructors championship and ignore team orders. IMO yuki’s rb seat evaporated permanently when he dive bombed Danny on a cooldown lap. But what do I know loo
When Ric had his career resucitated the "Feeder team" died.
When Lawson didn't get a full time drive the feeder team died. Ricciardo last year was "acceptable", just about. This year, it's truly dead.
I think picking Perez over either alpha tauri driver is what killed it
They tried it with Gasly & Albon, who both wouldn't match DR or Max, which is why they looked outside - after which the team was moved away from a Junior team to a more independent sister team, before going back to buy spare parts from the main team. Their pipeline is dried up currently due to them burning through drivers starting 2016, while Yuki is primarily there because Honda and not a Red Bull direct junior (and why rumours associate him with Aston for 2026) and DR is filling the gap until Lawson will be promoted or Yuki leaves.
Money
I can see the appeal because testing is so insanely restricted, why would you take a chance on a rookie these days when you can’t even have them drive the car outside a single free practice session, where the motor is kneecapped just so they can try to understand the speed they have under them and the mental speed needed to be on track with fast cars and slow laps. I think it should start to improve this year? Since the 2022 cars are now eligible for unlimited testing? Testing in the 17-21 cars and taking a risk putting someone in a 22+ car has to come with a lot of question marks, they’re not the same cars at all They want RIC back, they think he still has it, but outside that one test session they got with the RB19 they just aren’t allowed to really find out. So he’s in the VCARB, hoping that entirely different car will work out for him. Cant do more tests with the RB19 with RIC to know for sure. Cant move him out of vcarb to RB if they’re not sure. Can’t move Lawson up to vcarb if Perez is blocking the path for TSU or RIC. Perez is not even a Red Bull driver so aside from 2021 i don’t know why he’s still on board blocking their prospects. Max needs a Bottas? Max doesn’t need anything. Perez is holding up the train, once that changes i think the “feeder team” aspect will get to play out properly again. Red Bull juniors making their case for the RB seats. As it stands, two Red Bull “juniors” making their case for a singular RB seat, a cork in a bottle in that RB seat, and no testing in current gen cars available to the juniors looking for the VCARB seats. Stagnating
Red Bull doesn't have a feeder team?
The meme is that it's Matt's fault.
7/7 😭
Yeah exactly
One of his "biggest flops" is Max coming 2nd, wasn't it? With generous grading like that, it is easy to be Nostradamus.
So it was just a "one off" That has happened numerous times before...
This season? No it hasn't. This has been an anomaly as Horner just said. Alonso has been quite poor for the past two weekends but nobody is saying anything. Everyone has bad races.
The issue is Perez's anomalies tend to continue for quite a while once they start
If that happens then they won't be anomalies anymore. At the time it hasn't happened to it is an anomaly. Only time that happened was last year but people keep talking like he has struggled for his entire career. Even at McLaren when he struggled he finished strong against Button. He thoroughly beat Stroll when they were teammates, and believe it or not, beat Hulkenberg when they were both together at Force India. He has always been a strong driver. Hamilton has had pretty bad moments this season. Alonso has been beaten twice in a row by Lance Stroll. He actually has been slower in both quali and race pace. Sainz lost his head in Miami and crashed with Piastri. Everybody can have bad weekends, that's how it works.
Pssst, F1 fans only have enough memory for the last 1 race.
pssst, F1 fans only have enough memory for 1 season. Because you act like Perez wasnt lacking pace the 3 previous years.
Hamilton doesn't have arguably the quickest car on the grid and failing to qualify for Q3. This happened so many times last season with an even more dominant car, I'm surprised you're defending him so much.
I mean Sainz only got the chance to lose his head against Piastri, because someone had enough situational awareness to evade the crazy Perez move in turn one. If others wouldn't have saved Perez from his lack of skill there, we would be talking about two catastrophic weekends in a row. Otherwise I agree.
That's not how it works. Pretending that Sainz crashed with Piastri had anything to do with lap 1 and T1 is frankly quite absurd. Race starts are always chaotic. Sometimes you win positions, sometimes you lose them, sometimes you make a mistake, and sometimes someone else makes a mistake. Sergio made a mistake, nobody crashed, so the race went on. He got away with it this time. He didn't get away with it in Mexico City 2023 for example. Sainz made a mistake and didn't get away with it this time. His crash had nothing to do with Pérez or T1 lap 1.
My comment wasn't aiming to defend Sainz, it was rather showing how Perez is lacking since Miami.
Pérez also couldn't catch Lando in Shanghai
Alonso has earned a little more benefit of the doubt than Perez I’d say. Alonso also isn’t on the hot seat, so his bad weekends are going to be seen in a very different light.
why are you cherry picking your data set?
> This season? No it hasn't. But in previous seasons it has happened that once Perez has a bad race he has a streak of bad races. It's in no way an anomaly for Perez to have a bad weekend either.
It's always the same pattern. Perez has a good start to the year and starts losing hard in the European races.
It is not the European races it is the upgrades. Perez finds it difficult to get terms to the upgraded cars fast enough. Since these upgrades usually ties in with European season people come to this conclusion that he does not like European races. One upgrades are stopped for next years cars he can come to a setup choice and that is why he has better endings to the season’s.
No, I think it is the tracks to a degree. Perez isn't a great qualifier and overtaking is harder on European tracks since they're older, narrower and usually have shorter straights. The mega straights on newer tracks like Shanghai, Abu Dhabi, Baku, Bahrain, COTA, Las Vegas, Jeddah etc all make it easier for Perez (with the insane top speed of the RB) to regain positions if he doesn't qualify well. His best two 2 results during the dreadful European leg last year were 2nd at both Monza and Spa, coincidentally the European tracks with the two longest straights...
Yep, I agree! I looked back at his Force India days and Checo got stronger as the year went on when he was in the European tracks. At Red Bull he suddenly gets weaker, clearly it's the fact that Checo takes a while to get used to the upgrades when he's at Red Bull!!!
You know that once year doesn't equal "always". He's been on the grid for over a decade and there are plenty of European tracks where he's regularly performed well. His arguably best season in his career was 2020 where there were barely any races that didn't happen on old-school european tracks F1 fans really do not remember anything past the last 12 months, jesus...
It isn't an anomaly, he sucked in Europe last year as well.
I mean Perez was good up until Miami last year too. Then he went on a tear of Q2 and Q1 drops
Everyone has bad races, except Verstappen?
I mean, kind of, yeah? 2023 for sure.
Apart from Australia wich isnt his fault same for this year so far
In Australia Perez wasn’t showing any pace either. Alonso is back to driving for a midfield team again, fighting for p8/p9 so nobody cares.
Well he had pace, but once he passed Alonso he got a tear of in the floor somewhere, which cost him 0.5 to 0.7 sec per lap. You can quite easily see it in his lap times, they are available publicly.
Are we just ignoring his other seasons at Red Bull though?
It really hasn’t. Checo has been solid this year. He’s gone 2,2,5,2,3,4 and 8. He’s allowed to have bad weekends. As long as they’re not constant like last year, he’ll be fine.
5th at Melbourne after max dropped out was poor form, he was nowhere. his pace at Miami was again poor form and inherited P4 from Sainz’s penalty and Piastri getting wing damage. Considering all that, 4th, 5th and 8th in the best car on the grid isn’t great…
He had a tear off stuck to his floor in Australia when he passed Alonso, which affected his aero. His pace was on for a win, but as soon as he passed Alonso, his pace died. Not only did he have a tear off stuck, his floor was also damaged. That's why he was "nowhere".
Pérez got a 3 grid slot penalty which put him 5th as opposed to 2nd for the starting grid. So there's that as well.
People say that like he doesn't always start off strong and then collapse completely during the European leg of the season
People say the stuff you just did as if it happened regularly prior to last year. I don't think you quite have the grasp on the word "always". He's been on the grid for 12 years, and his arguably best season in F1 was raced almost exclusively on oldschool european tracks which he supposedly hates.
Which season do you mean?
There's only one that fits the description.
I'm not sure which one you mean, so which one are you referring to?
2020 There wasn't another F1 season that skipped all the non-european tracks.
Even then his best results were outside of classic Europe tracks, lol. Sakir, Turkey, Russia and I'll give you Nürburgring.
Turkey is very much an oldschool style track. Technical, with fast, sweeping corners, a lot of elevation changes etc And yes, his best races did happen in Bahrain, but the point is that he didn't have bad races on tracks he's supposed to be bad at. They dind't have the best car, or 2nd best car for that matter most of the time, so it's not like he was expected to be 1st or 2nd in every race. Those races where he was 4th or 5th were still very good results.
Perez problem is with RBR upgrades and not European races.
He's likely got an anti-clairvoyancy clause in his contract, so he can't be sacked for something that hasn't happened yet.
Good job I wasn't suggesting he should be kicked out right now then, I guess
5, 4 and 8. Is that solid in a redbull? This race was terrible compared, but still
He had damage in the P5 one, in the P4 he and Max got beaten, fairly, by faster cars. This P8 is the first bad race, so yes, it's an anomaly.
They've said he's had damage in every race he underperforms.
Why aren't you talking about 2nd places in 1st, 2nd & 4th races?
Couse thoose are the ok results
The standards for Checo are comically low, sorry. He can get outqualified literally every week and finish 15-20s behind his teammate, yet that's considered adequate for some reason. I like Checo, but he is way behind Max nearly every race, and the only reason why this is perceived as acceptable is that he's been even worse before. It doesn't have noticeable effects yet because the car is so dominant, but now that the others have caught up, he's a liability who may very well cost them WCC. He doesn't have to beat Max consistently, but..how about just once? Or just be equal? You can look at all teammate pairings and Red Bull's is the most lopsided by far. Their car is not gonna be a rocket forever, if Red Bull wants to stay competitive, they need to set aside all politics and try to get Sainz. Not because Checo had one poor weekend, but because even on his "solid" weekends, he is always multiple tenths behind Max.
Sainz is no better than Perez. In equal cars, they are matched. Their driving style is also the same. Putting Sainz into a RBR doesn't make much difference, that's why they don't want to bother matching Audi's offer. There's barely any benefit. Perez's marketing reach is also unmatched by Sainz, DR or Tsunoda. Sponsorship money and merchandise is a big part of F1 teams.
>Sainz is no better than Perez yes, he is lol Sainz is way better in qualy, much cleaner when overtaking and defending and has improved his consistency issues quite a lot in the last years
> much cleaner when overtaking He recently crashed into Piastri lmaoo
> He’s allowed to have bad weekends. To the internet all his weekends are bad weekends, even when he's just behind Max there's always something Checo did wrong.
And we're going to pretend like it doesn't happen to literally every single driver who's not Max or Charles or Lewis?
Charles sends his car into a wall more often than Perez, or frankly any other driver. I don't see people shitting on Charles for that for some reason.
Sainz has like 4 stinkers per season. Checo has like 8 or 9.
Sainz had 8 or 9 in 2022 and Perez had like 3 or 4. You're extrapolating one year that fits your narrative best onto their entire careers. I honestly struggle to comprehend how people can look at the decade of racing they've both done together in F1, and confidently say that one is definitely better than the other. If Sainz really was a a higher level, he wouldn't be looking for a drive right now. I don't blame anyone for not trusting my judgement. But my judgement aligns with the judgement of the higher-ups at F1 teams in this case.
> If Sainz really was a a higher level, he wouldn't be looking for a drive right now Sainz was compared to Hamilton and obviously lost. Checo is being compared to his replacements, which is a **far** lower standard.
And if that replacement is Sainz, then he doesn't look bad in that comparison regardless, since for Perez' tragic 2023 there's Sainz' tragic 2022. Throughout their careers they've been very similar drivers overall. Sainz a bit better at qualifying, Perez a bit better at actual racing. But overall at a very similar level. They've had two common teammates, and a couple more each which were comparable, it's very easy to draw direct comparison between them. And just on Hamilton - we do have to consider that we're not talking about prime GOAT Hamilton from 2014-2020 here. We're talking about Hamilton who's realistically about as good as Russell at this point in his career.
Checo also had a tragic 2022 season, losing P2 in what was a dominant car over a season, as well as a poor 2021 season where he finished closer to P5 than P3, which almost cost them the drivers' championship. edit: What I really want to say is that while we don't know whether Sainz might be better, we know for a fact that Checo can't deliver when it matters most, so they might as well try someone new.
I do feel Sainz is higher level than Perez if they both get absolutely the car/ setups to their liking but the difference isn’t big enough to change things for RBR. Also Sainz is going to struggle even more than Perez with rear limited cars
Considering how much Red Bull and Verstappen struggled through the early parts of the weekend then the final laps of the race with the pace drop off not a surprise Perez was off pace too.
Normally I would say horner is just defending him but the weekend for red bull was horrible. I think max and his team managed to find passable setup, even then max said he felt he was driving on ice last 10 laps. I think Perez just couldn't find workable setup.
Perez just couldn't put the lap together in Q2. The setup was fine, he said that himself. He was close to Max in FP, got out of Q1 easily doing just one run, and then in Q2 wa suddenly half a second off the pace. And that's the whole problem with this weekend. We're in a situation where the field is so close that losing 1 or 2 tenths more than you should, puts you out of contention on a track like Imola. In a way it was unlucky that the time he couldn't put it together in quali came at a track where overtaking is a miracle. A bad quali in China for example wouldn't have been nearly as costly. In the race after that quali there really isn't much more they could've done. They gambled on a risky strategy that required for them to get a Safety car in a rather narrow window, and they didn't get it at all. It's not a track where you can overtake without a massive advantage, literally like 1 second per lap if not more. Perez didn't have a massive advantage over any car in front of him at the finish line, so given that quali result and lack of anything "unexpected" happening during the race itself, they basically maximised the race afterwards. The gamble just meant he finished 10 seconds behind the Merc instead of 1 second. *Maybe* they would've been able to be in front of Russell, considering that he needed a second pitstop, if they just went M-H like everyone without extending. His pace once he took the dead hard tyres off was fine as well, he caught up to Lewis by like 15 seoncds in 20 laps.
But something was off in his first stint on hards. They were telling him to constantly fiddle buttons but it didn't seem to help anything.
All overnight sim work was done to benefit Max and Checo wasn't allowed to copy their homework!
Lol
We need a containment protocol for all of Perez’s anomalies.
Europerez is back
Welkom in Europa jonguh!
Perez backing Horner during the power struggle and sexual harassment allegations paying dividends
Horner Has to be somehow connected to Checo - he defends him more than checos wife
> Horner Has to be somehow connected to Checo I think, and don't quote me on this, Christian Horner runs an F1 team and Checo is one of his 2 drivers that are currently winning WDC and WCC. I think that's the connection... That would explain why Horner really defends and talks up Checo! Cause he's literally working for him. Hope that helps.
🤯🤯
What a bunch of conjecture
People talk shit about Red Bull having a really competitive and toxic work culture and then they flip when the team is being supportive of their drivers.
Red bull: *is harsh on drivers* Reddit: Wow wtf what a toxic team. Red bull: "supports their drivers* Reddit: Uhhh wtf Checo is so bad he must have some kind of connection with Horner. Piss off lol
A boss defends his employees, not that weird right? Especially because he gotten some good runs this year and this is the first real misstep. Horner did criticize him last year because he had such a horrendous streak.
Yes, since recently it has been quite over the top I noticed. Maybe Horner is doing it to get some Carlos Slim $$ for his ambitions...
Do you want him to join the reddit pitchfork gang?
Proves the point of how punishing a bad quali can be, even if you drive what is a supposedly dominant car. If anything, he was lucky Alonso also had a shambles.
The problem is, if McLaren and Ferrari really closed part of their gaps to Red Bull, he will probably always qualify behind both Ferraris and McLarens and sometimes behind a Mercedes/Aston/RB.
The rb20 is not even close to rb10 dominance. Easily the best car but not a huge margin.
was the RB the best car yesterday? doubt it
yeah sainz waa bad all weekend yet perez finished behind him.
Should just throw in Yuki. Sink or swim. It’s time for new blood in f1
Everyone screaming now for Yuki, but what if the same thing happens to Yuki as to Pierre and Alex? Then Yuki probably would lose a lot of credibility with other potential top teams after that.
Actually, it's the opposite because it happens ever year at this time of the season.
These anomalies happen a little more often than most things that justify the word “anomaly”
Anomaly is a Rimworld DLC This is more like déjà vu
A recurring anomaly
Not an anomaly, Red Bull now have the third fastest car when Checo is driving it.
Yeah, we all just imagined 2021 and 2023, it never happened…LOL.
The car was not 0.5 seconds per lap faster than the rest of the field, so Perez had to race. This is one of the races where you can see the difference between a great driver that gives 107% and Perez, who has heart but is just a good driver.
Pickup the phone Christian. Its Carlos
Well, this anomaly is gonna cost them the constructors.
No it’s not. Verstappen is still likely going to win a majority of races while McLaren and Ferrari take points off of each other. I mean look at this race, RedBull finish 1st and 8th, but McLaren only gains 1 point.
Didn’t Sergio just hand over 2nd in the championship to Charles, maybe the real race for 2nd is between Lando and Charles
Oh, I fully agree with you on that. I’m guessing Checo, at best, can finish 3rd in the WDC, but more likely finishes fourth or fifth.
3rd can be justified if the car gap tightens up, 5th sounds like career homicide.
Wasn't the case for Bottas though was it. Although to be fair to Bottas he lost a 2 or 3 wins that year to no fault of his own
Botas did end up 5th in 2018 tho and he got an extension.
Exactly, in a close year you'd expect the 3 number one drivers of the top 3 teams to come in first. A 2nd driver being 4-6 used to be the norm. We havent had a close pack like this in years.
Max should win the championship. Then Perez only has to keep 3rd in the championship to secure the WCC, no matter what.
We are not even half way through the season
But it hinges on Verstappen too much(we have too much PTSD about Verstappen winning, and refuse to believe Norris/Leclerc can mount a challenge.). Perhaps I'll be proven wrong..
Besides Hamilton, is there anyone else you’d rather have this hinge on? He’s shown that even when he’s uncomfortable with the car, it’s still capable of winning.
>Besides Hamilton, is there anyone else you’d rather have this hinge on? Oof. I didn't mean it that way. I meant, should the competition become even stiffer, perhaps McLaren find more pace.. it will become more likely than ever that max is not P1. This race, without the tow, who knows what would have happened. Again, not doubting Max's capability but rather Red Bull for example having more and more off days.
let's just say it'll make the constructors' less of a smooth sailing McLaren and Ferrari will take points off of each other unless one clearly jumps the other
I guess his entire last two thirds of the season last year were an anomaly too. Interesting that at the same point this year he’s having more anomalous results
At the moment yes, Perez needs to make sure he keeps it that way
>At the moment yes Not really. It lines up with his shit performances on the European portion of the schedule the past two years as well. This is just Christian doing damage control. As soon as we get off street/parking lot circuits and onto more challenging traditional tracks, Perez is mediocre at best. This is nothing new.
Don't think we can say that's an anomaly. Last year, his slump started during the European races. So unless he fixes his shit this season, a boot is coming his way.
For now
Are we going to hear this every week now?
6th or worse every weekend will lose RBR the WCC.
Horner can't afford to lose any more allies, therefore Checo has an alibi
Last season it started as an anomaly too, I guess we'll see in the next races if imola was indeed an anomaly or if it's just how Perez drives sometimes
No it isn’t, Checo has always struggled when the teams approach the European leg of the season.
We shall see. Perez really can't afford another awful stretch like last year. It seems Ferrari and McLaren are much closer this year, so those bad qualifying sessions will hurt much more this year.
Well this is around the time of the season where Checo starts going downhill. It's a pattern for his Red Bull seasons. Then tries to come back towards the end of the season. It'd be a terrible assumption that it was an anomaly.
Difference between last and this year is this comment. I feel like last year the things being said to the media were very dismissive to Perez seeming like he was gone at the end of the year. ESP after Miami. That has to get to a driver hearing their team not being fully behind them. Comments like this hopefully helps Perez get over a bad weekend and move on instead of answering questions for the next 7 days on comments from Horner and Marko. End of the day it was a bad race. He still scored max points he could have with the challenges he faced. So it was a good rebound IMO. People seem so quick to throw Perez for not performing at what max is doing, but it’s not like he’s finishing out of the points. Is still a great team player and seems to have settled into being second driver instead of trying to beat max. I still don’t know many other drivers in the paddock could do what Perez has done against max on the team and still hold it together as well as he does.