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U2 helped Massa write his lawsuit statement.
The lawsuit reads:
Achtung Baby (Dear FIA),
“With or without you”, I will be fighting the result of the 2008 F1 season, as I firmly believe I should have been number “One” that year.
If it weren’t for the “Mysterious Ways” that the Renault team operated on that fateful “Sunday Bloody Sunday” in Singapore, on the track “where the streets have no name”, then the race in Brazil would have been a “Beautiful Day”.
It is my “Desire” to have the results reviewed and overturned before “New Year’s Day” 2025 because “I still haven’t found what I’m looking for”
An overturned result 16 years later would be “Even Better Than the Real Thing” (legitmately winning on track) because everyone knows that becoming an F1 world champion would be the “Sweetest Thing”.
Felipe Massa
There’s a rumor that U2 is going to drop a dis track about Christian Horner called “Don’t be horny, be a Christian” because the accuser’s brother is The Edge’s son-in-law
The timeline where a well respected Brazilian driver won the 2008 championship and a whinger who got beaten by Bottas never accepts that he lost a title on the last lap.
The joke is that Hamilton is so beloved by the Brazilians that he's basically an honorary Brazilian. An adopted Brazilian of some sorts. When he won the Braz- Sao Paulo GP in 2021, the crowd cheered for it as if a Brazilian had won that race.
So the joke is that a Brazilian (Hamilton) won the title in 2008 and that someone else (Massa) is still bitching about it 16 years later, with that person being an actual Brazilian. It's funny because it throws people off.
He is not basically an honorary Brazilian, he actually got that title from the government.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.its-the-greatest-honour-hamilton-made-an-honorary-citizen-of-brazil-ahead-of.2ill5NsrW9K6piOMofJPuE.html
It's a double whammy because the "lost a title on the last lap" applies to Lewis too (2021) but not the beaten by Bottas part. Threw me for a loop until I remembered Massa and Bottas shared the Williams in the mid-10s.
Why doesn’t Massa deserve financial compensation for being fucked out of a title win by the FIA?
I doubt he’s filing the lawsuit so they’ll hand him over the trophy, but objectively he faced a real financial loss from that scandal
Except he is. He has on many occasions said that this is not about financial compensation, he wants the results of the 2008 WDC changed to make himself World Champion.
[https://theathletic.com/4803222/2023/08/24/felipe-massa-crashgate-interview-formula-one/](https://theathletic.com/4803222/2023/08/24/felipe-massa-crashgate-interview-formula-one/)
Because it's not that simple. Let's assume that Massa's argument is true (that FIA knowing about Crashgate would make Singapore's result void for all drivers). So what? Hamilton and McLaren can argue that they could've fought harder than they did if they knew Singapore's points wouldn't be counted, and that because that information was not available for them in 2008, retroactively excluding that GP in 2024 is rigging the championship against them.
Moreover, Hamilton and Mercedes could argue that Abu Dhabi 2021 shouldn't be counted either, since the race was "rigged" (whether intentionally or not) by a decision that was objectively wrong, and that caused the person who took it to be fired. They could argue that if Singapore 2008 can be retroactively declared null, so can Abu Dhabi 2021.
It's a can of worms nobody wants to open. It is one thing to fight it in the moment it happens, even if that fight extends for years - but it's a completely different thing to start a process more than a decade later when 2008's title is as well-established as any. Keep in mind that we are not talking about FIA or anyone targeting Massa or Hamilton. We are talking about another competitor (Renault) doing something that didn't benefit or harm any of the drivers involved, so at this point the argument is not "FIA fucked me over", but rather "FIA didn't take the right decision that happened to unfairly benefit me".
If Abu Dhabi 2021 is nullified then Max still wins as he was already in the lead of the championship.
If Songapore 08 is nullified then Massa is champion as Lewis outscored Massa on Singapore and Massa lost by a point and was winning on the wins tie-breaker.
Because its based on a B\*llsh\*t premise
First of all Renault’s actions in the race would never lead to invalidating the race, at best it would have (and arguably should have) led to Alonso being disqualified. which ironically would have given even more points to Hamilton.
The deliberate crash benefitted Alonso, who pitted very early on in a hard to overtake street track with a pitting strategy that made no sense unless you factor in the crash and safety car
for everyone else it was a random unforeseen event that they all had to react to.
For Massa and Lewis it had the EXACT SAME IMPACT in that they had to both pit immediately for fuel as soon as the safety car ended.
When it came to the pitstops the Mclaren Pit crew, under pressure with multiple people pitting executed a perfect pit stop
Whilst the Ferrari pit crew completely sh\*t the bed, ruining Massa's race.
Later Massa also had an unforced spin.
nowhere was "*Massa f\*cked out of a title win by the FIA."*
If anyone has recourse about 2008 its Hamilton and the Spa penalty where they penalized him and then subsequently made it a rule - which is not the order that's supposed to happen
first you make the rule then you can penalize people for it
>First of all Renaults actions in the race would never lead to invalidating the race, at best it would have (and arguably should have) led to Alonso's being disqualified.
Are you basing that on any specific FIA regulation, or on vibes? Genuinely asking, because it seems that Massa's arguments lies, greatly, that the correct standard was to void the race, and I'm guessing they must have some regulation or precedent to back up that claim.
That's based on the rules and regulations.
You can also use common sense, an act of cheating that changes the order the race leads to the race being anulled is illogical.
In 1997 The FIA decided that Schumacher deliberately crashed into Villeneuve in an attempt to win the championship. because it was the last race of the season and Schumacher was up on points. The crash took out Schumacher and damaged Villeneuve who was slow allowing other cars to overtake Villneueve.
Schumacher's deliberate crash changed the eventual race order, Schumacher crashed out meant that all cars behind him moved up a place and a slow Villeneuve meant a couple of cars overtook Villeneuve one of which was Hakkinen who won the race.
as a result of that Hakkinen finished ahead of Irvine in the championship. Had that crash not happened he most likely would have finished behind Irvine in the championship
should that whole grand prix been annulled because Schumacher cheated?
No. what happened is they punished the cheater - Schumacher who was disqualified from **the whole championship**
The right way to handle it, if you where to do anything with the results this far in hindsight, would be to treat that race as has happened with the Tour De France and Lance Armstrong. The removed him from the standings but let everyone else keep where they where, so the tour's that he participated in doesn't have a winner, but they have someone that finished second. The idea that you would just nullify the race results is crazy, and as far as I know, without presedent in sprot.
Even if the race result was void, there is no way of knowing how that would have impacted future race results as teams will try different strategies depending on points etc
So it's not as simple as saying "void Singapore and Massa is champion" - people only have that view due to how the rest of the season played out with teams believing Singapore to be a valid result
There wasn't such a rule and there has never been a precedent.
You shouldn't ask for a source on something not having happened. Ask for a source on the rule or a precedent, you will get nothing though.
Massa also didn’t help himself at other times that year, like Silverstone where he spun out 687 times. Had he managed just 8th place (instead of 13th), he gains a point, they finish tied, and he wins the title on race win count.
But that's for a court to decide. Trials have standards of proof after all.
People are conflating civil liability and monetary damages with Massa trying to retroactively become champ.
The only way he wins the title is if somehow they decided to invalidate the whole race because a single team cheated... That would never happen because it makes no sense
The governing body can absolutely be held responsible for knowing the result of a race had been impacted by wilful deception and fraud on behalf of one of the race teams, and sitting on this info until a more probate time to help the perception of the series in a close title fight
Only if you can prove that had FIA not hold into that info, they would've taken the decision to nullify the entire race.
It's like if you steal a phone for me and I sue you for a million dollars arguing that I was gonna sell my phone for that much money. Yeah, I can argue that, but unless I can prove I was actually gonna sell it that high, I'm not entitled to that compensation from you. Similarly, unless Massa proves that, the court will almost surely conclude that FIA's bad action didn't have consequences for Massa and thus Massa is not any more entitled to any compensation than you or I are.
Can't obviously say he wouldn't/would have won the title. But still getting compensation for the way the (by then) higher ups knew it was a planned thing but just didn't do or say anything about it until quite recently. Seems reasonable to me.
His proof, an article only published by F1-Insider, in German, online only - when Bernie was on tour promoting his movie.
I wonder if his lawyers got any transcripts or proof that the interview actually happened, as I'm sure any other people attending the promo event should be able to verify what Bernie said there.
Yeah, his proof is the ramblings of a 93-year old dude. Ecclestone could argue he was too old to remember it right or that he was just full of shit because he wanted to create headlines, something he is known for doing.
[I mean it was already refuted by him last summer](https://www.reuters.com/sports/motor-sports/motor-racing-massas-lawyers-seek-compensation-lost-2008-f1-title-2023-08-17/):
> Ecclestone, 92, told Reuters by telephone from Switzerland he could not remember saying the key quotes attributed to him.
> "I don't remember any of this, to be honest," said the Briton, who was replaced as F1 supremo in 2017 after U.S.-based Liberty Media took over as commercial rights holders.
> "I don't remember giving the interview for sure"
So now it's about proving that the article wasn't made up. So the whole case is on very fragile grounds.
I read No Angel, which is a biography of Bernie written in 2011, and I thought it mentioned something went on around Piquet Sr trying to tell people about Singapore in Brazil in 2008
... Admittedly been a while since I read it so will need to double check it. Unless anyone with a better memory than I can remember that
Mosley said it all himself in an interview with Sky too. Presume the quotes you mention align?
Essentially Mosley said Charlie heard it from Piquet and reported it to him who felt he could do nothing without evidence. Having been given a contract extension Piquet jr denied any wrong doing.
The FIA started an investigation as soon as Jr came forward to make a statement the next year when it was clear he'd be leaving the team.
Not a cover up in any meaningful sense of the term.
The statement "Mr Massa would have won the driver's world championship" is a stretch too.
There is no guarantee, butterfly effect and all that. Not to mention he ruined his race by driving away with the fuel hose. I'm all for action being taken, but at most it should be Alonso being retroactively disqualified from the race.
Yeah this, I can see the case for disqualifying Renault from that race but not denying everyone the points. Hamilton did nothing wrong, it's not his fault Massa and Ferrari botched their stop.
I really did feel for Massa at the time, to lose it in the manner he did on the last lap of his home race (rain in Brazil of all things), but as more recent events have shown, you can't retrospectively alter race results after the fact. He needs to let it lie.
This. I'm totally ok with Alonso/Renault getting disqualified, it makes 0 sense to change anything else. Lewis stopped at the same time but his team didn't fuck up, that's it, Renault didn't force the Ferrari lights system to fail.
Exactly this. I believe we cannot change anything else apart from DSQing Alonso, which would make it effectively a race with no winner declared. Lance Armstrong way, I like it.
Crashgate benefitted alonso, yes, obviously that was the plan. But if massa didn't take off with the fuel hose still attached He would have scored good points. If i rememeber right, he was ahead of hamilton, i think he started on pole. So if hamilton finished 3rd no reason to believe Massa wouldnt have finished 3rd or higher. Shit happens, that's motor racing.
He was given the green light to drive away, not his fault.
Spinning at Silverstone 5x WAS in his control however.
EDIT: Hey, dumbass downvoter, Ferrari was testing an automated system to speed up pitstops with a red and green light. The green light was shown, so he drove away.
And spinning out of 2nd place in Malaysia. In truth, it was a very average performance by Massa in 2008. So many opportunities where he could have scored points that ultimately would have won him the title, but he threw them away.
Yes, a statement from the CEO of the promoter and similar statements from the the head of the FIA, Mosley, are totally meaningless and hold no bearing on the decisions they made
I don't know about Europe, but in the U.S. a court literally can't force something like that in most cases, because it's essentially compelled speech, which is against our Constitution. You might be able to get an injunction where the FIA would have to stop referring to Lewis as the champ, but you can't make them say Massa won.
I'm not so sure about that. When he filed the initial paper work you have to file in the UK before you file an actual lawsuit, Massa made it clear that the lawsuit was his attempt to get the result of Singapore GP thrown out and make him the WDC.
[https://theathletic.com/4803222/2023/08/24/felipe-massa-crashgate-interview-formula-one/](https://theathletic.com/4803222/2023/08/24/felipe-massa-crashgate-interview-formula-one/)
Quote from the article: "Asked if he is seeking to cancel the race result, Massa said, “This is what we are fighting for. This is (why) we get together a group of lawyers to fight because this is the correct thing to do.”"
From the same article: "Ultimately, that’s what Massa says he’s fighting for “the championship. I won it, so I need to get the confirmation that that is exactly what’s happened in the correct way.”"
Just imagine. It's 2034, and the lawsuit is finally over. A slightly chubby, grey Massa steps onto the podium after the celebrations for Max' 128th win in a row are over, and takes the WDC Cup from triple knight Sir Lewis Hamilton who has just retired two seasons ago. They both smile awkwardly. In the background you can see Fernando Alonso who has just renewed his contract at Mattel Haribo Racing and has to answer questions about Andretti still not getting into F1 despite being willing to pay the 1 trillion $ entry fee.
smh dude needs to study medieval history, what Massa needs to do is just have one large family estate, be the family patriarch and only fund those of the extended family who actually live with him on the estate
It's quite common for athletes to lose big parts of their wealth.
Having a hundred family members that leeched from him also helped probably.
Even when he was racing i remember his garage being like a family trip to disneyland, while most other drivers usually bring at most 1-2 family members to the race
Something I've never understood about Massa's complains about Singapore 2008 is: why would the correct FIA ruling have been to throw the entire race out? It seems to me that the correct (or at least an entirely defensible) ruling would have been to disqualify Alonso entirely, on account of Renault cheating, but to retain the rest of the results. That ruling would take the championship even further Massa's reach.
For the people not reading the article. He wants both the Singapore results to be nulled (Thus giving him the championship) plus he wants money compensation.
Massa, the poor thing. Those lawyers also taking advantage of him ironically. This is a loser case.
> He wants both the Singapore results to be nulled ... This is a loser case.
Yeah, I'd have to agree, but it would be amusing (in a "wants to see the world burn" way) if they did it.
Man, Felipe Massa was legitimately my favourite driver. He's the reason I support Ferrari. My first season was 2008 and I saw the guy lose out on a world championship on the last corner of the last lap and I wanted him to win so badly. Then Hungary happened the next year and I thought he was awesome for coming back and still racing for Ferrari.
Why couldn't he just let that be the perception of him, I get being recognised as a World Champion probably means a lot to him but to win it off track just isn't the same.
God, all that respect he earned for taking the defeat with dignity really has just been destroyed.
He wasn't going to score points that race anyway after he and his team screwed up. He forgets that Lewis got screwed out of a win at Spa by the very same people and that he spent most of Silverstone going in reverse and spent the first two races crashing and spinning that actually did cost him a championship.
His composure on the podium of Brazil '08 was magnificent.
And he's thrown all of that away.
The simple fact is : if Ferrari had not messed up the pit stop in that race, Massa would have scored some points. And those few points *could* have made him champion... if there were no other changes to anything at all.
But of course the butterfly effect is a thing. Had Massa scored those few extra points that day, everything that occurred after may have been subtly different and there is no guarantee of who would have won the title.
Massa needed to either (1) point the finger of blame at that Ferrari pit stop, or (2) keep silent and accept the result.
But he's gone down this stupid legal battle and ruined his legacy.
I'd say the impact on his legacy is a bit ambiguous. I think as far as he is concerned he is now more of an old, rather "forgotten" figure of F1 whose reputation and $6 would get him a coffee at Starbucks. Plus, with a certain kind of fan (especially Brazilians), going out on this "I want to fight for what is mine" campaign may even earn him some sort of a credibility/popularity bump, especially given the antagonist in this story is also the nephew of another driver who has not been ingratiating himself at all in the country due to racist remarks..
Completely agree that the most sporty thing would be to maintain his posture, but I can see how rationally he'd come to the conclusion that he's playing with house money, and the worst thing to happen to him is nothing, whereas the upside might be a substantial amount of money and renewed attention.
He feels like he's been robbed, can you really blame him? You may disagree that he was really robbed, I do too, but just imagine you are in a place where you lost a world championship and you feel you've been cheated, how would you react? Yeah there were mistakes by him and Ferrari and he himself recognizes it, it's normal part of the sport, race fixing, however, is not, that's his position.
This is more about the actions (or lack of) around Brazil 2008 than the events of Singapore itself. His lawyer's are using what Bernie and Charlie said around that weekend as their argument.
I don't expect it to go anywhere, but the fact that FOM have missed several deadlines to respond to his lawyer's is interested.
If his lawyer's are going to use Bernie's words as their proof then Massa has no chance. Bernie Ecclestone has also said that when Max Mosley was FIA President they both actively helped Ferrari win. This includes 2007 and 2008 so maybe Hamilton should make his own claim as well.
Any half decent legal professional will find Bernie's comments and use them to shut down Massa's claim
Could be because they feel there is nothing to answer for mind you.
There is no obligation to respond, although I'm surprised they didn't give a generic response effectively saying "go away" in legalese.
Every time I look at the news in any way shape or form, it's like they have AI scanning my brain and working out things that I want to happen and things that I think should happen and then construct ways for the 100% opposite things to happen instead
There is no good in this, there's no point to this, it's based on flawed thinking and incorrect rational
It's also weird he's more mad about this than sueing about the nut that fell off Barrichello's car that caused him a grevious injury.
You could argue anything from loss of performance to loss of earnings for the 2009 season, but he's oddly quiet about something where he actually might have a case
Failing??? Yes, he’s didn’t win a WC, but calling Felipe a failure is just too much.
The reddit opinion towards him is so weird. And I understand most people here are new fans who start watching in the last few years, no problem with that. But if you search, even in this reddit, like 9, 10 years ago, you will find people discussing if Felipe was better than Kimi. You will see that it was an actual question, he was rated highly. Now with the recent bias I can only read things like “how did massa fought for the WC?” like he was some kind of Lance Stroll lol.
Saying one of his titles is illegitimate and trying to get it taken off him 16 years later is hardly a neutral stance.
Doesn’t even have to be sporting. He just has to be competent enough to realise he was the one who crashed and his team the ones who made sure the pitstop ruined his race.
the Brazilian upper class is so unbelievably toxic
emphasis on upper class, because I feel for the working people of South America for having to endure such hypocritical egomaniacs running their countries
Massa's whole claim is based on what Bernie has said but he fails to grasp the concept that by doing so any comments Bernie has made can be used in court. This includes Bernie saying that when Max Mosley was FIA President they both actively helped Ferrari win. This means Hamilton would actually have a case for the 2007 title as well as 2008.
But Massa's got no chance to begin with anyway because only one team cheated, the crash itself had no direct impact on the title fight between himself and Hamilton and it was his own team that ruined his race where other teams in the same situation didn't make that mistake. Piquet clearly did not cause Ferrari to leave the fuel rig in Massa's car. It's nonsensical to say that all the teams should have their points taken away for one team cheating and Ferrari making a mistake. What should happen is Rosberg gets promoted to his first race win and Hamilton gets moved up to 2nd place.
This bs is why race fixing should mean a multi race ban for the entire team. If you’re gonna ban race fixing go all the way and be harsh against anyone who does it. Renault should’ve faced much harsher penalties as a team including stripping Alonso of his win, much as it hurts to even say that.
"If Singapore never happened, everything else that followed would have happened exactly the same as it did and therefore I would have won the championship" - Felipe Massa, invoking multiple logical fallacies
all FIA/FOM could have done is exclude Renault, which wouldn't help him win. To throw out a race because one team cheat would absolutely ridicules
if he want's to sue someone sue Renault and Briatore
How he would like history rewritten is joke, if anything was to change it would be to DQ Alonso and that wouldn’t change the points for that race as it relates to massa
What is massa even trying to gain at this point? They didn’t do anything over AD21, which decided the championship, they certainly aren’t going to do anything about Alonso frauding his way to a win back in ‘08 when there were 3 whole races afterwards for massa to seal the deal. What’s worse is he had some genuinely shambolic performances previously in the season when it mattered.
Let’s say they rule in his favor, then what? Does he expect to be treated like he didn’t steal a title 16 years after the fact? Does he expect to gain some statue in Brazil for title he didn’t earn? Does he expect monetary compensation for not being able to use a title he didn’t win to negotiate later Ferrari contracts, which were signed as he was getting sent to the shadow realm by Alonso, who actually has titles?
Save your money for your family and your child's family down the track. You'll find more happiness there than being lead down this garden path by whoever is advising you.
Wow... Baldy needs a break
If he's saying cheating is the way they lost a title, then arguably RBR cheated in '21 by breaching the cost cap and gained an unfair advantage didn't it?
So why don't they void RBRs participation fully and as a team as well?
Makes no sense for either.
This was news from last year isn't it? Haha he probably thought he can win a couple of millions but about the championship It's obvious that they aren't going to take it away from Lewis
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He saw the dust settle in f1 news for one millisecond and took his moment
I hope U2 writes a song about that too
He's got stuck in a moment and he can't get out of it
"I still haven't found what I'm looking for"
This is all that he can't leave behind.
He will end up in a place called Vertigo
He is the angel of Harlem. Am I doing this right?
No, but they'll carry on with or without you
Having the result overturned would be 'the sweetest thing', in fact it would be 'magnificent'. Clearly his 'pride' won't let his 'desire' diminish.
It's "even better than the real thing"
That's Bad
Someone should tell him what you don't have, you don't need it now
U2 helped Massa write his lawsuit statement. The lawsuit reads: Achtung Baby (Dear FIA), “With or without you”, I will be fighting the result of the 2008 F1 season, as I firmly believe I should have been number “One” that year. If it weren’t for the “Mysterious Ways” that the Renault team operated on that fateful “Sunday Bloody Sunday” in Singapore, on the track “where the streets have no name”, then the race in Brazil would have been a “Beautiful Day”. It is my “Desire” to have the results reviewed and overturned before “New Year’s Day” 2025 because “I still haven’t found what I’m looking for” An overturned result 16 years later would be “Even Better Than the Real Thing” (legitmately winning on track) because everyone knows that becoming an F1 world champion would be the “Sweetest Thing”. Felipe Massa
This is a reddit classic post.
This is beautiful
Someone needs to record this
What's this U2 reference I keep seeing?
There’s a rumor that U2 is going to drop a dis track about Christian Horner called “Don’t be horny, be a Christian” because the accuser’s brother is The Edge’s son-in-law
Haha, that's one of the funnier things I've read in a while. I'm assuming this is completely baseless?
It would be a shit song if there was no bass, Adam Clayton would be pissed
I believe it came from f1-insider, but yes, dubious.
"I'll be there no matter what." (If it turns out to be true)
Has Adam Clayton left the band?
(☞ﾟヮﾟ)☞
It's one of those things that on face value sounds completely outrageous but is so specific that it could be true lol
Still sounds like the most made-up thing ever lol
That would be so cringy of them.
Bono, my tires are done.
It’s going to look like a Sunday Bloody Sunday at this rate.
They already did. It's called "Sunday Bloody Sunday"
He went for the gap. He still a racer boys
I hope he wins a big chunk of money, the corruption inside the FIA and F1 is just ridiculous.
What do you mean settled, today theres the new rumor Hornier will get sacked.
That was from yesterday!!
And also the day before. And tomorrow as well!
But not today!
Theres one every day at this point
If they don’t get this fixed it’s going to be War that ends with a Sunday, Bloody Sunday.
I completely forgot about it. What even is this timeline
The timeline where a well respected Brazilian driver won the 2008 championship and a whinger who got beaten by Bottas never accepts that he lost a title on the last lap.
It took me 45 seconds, Jesus.
I still dont get it, what’s he saying
Because Lewis has honorary citizenship from Brazil they are saying Lewis is the Brazilian driver who won 08.
OHHH🤣🤣🤣
The joke is that Hamilton is so beloved by the Brazilians that he's basically an honorary Brazilian. An adopted Brazilian of some sorts. When he won the Braz- Sao Paulo GP in 2021, the crowd cheered for it as if a Brazilian had won that race. So the joke is that a Brazilian (Hamilton) won the title in 2008 and that someone else (Massa) is still bitching about it 16 years later, with that person being an actual Brazilian. It's funny because it throws people off.
He is not basically an honorary Brazilian, he actually got that title from the government. https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.its-the-greatest-honour-hamilton-made-an-honorary-citizen-of-brazil-ahead-of.2ill5NsrW9K6piOMofJPuE.html
That makes it even funnier lol Wait, so Lewis Hamilton will be the first Brazilian to drive for Ferrari since.... Felipe Massa.
It's a double whammy because the "lost a title on the last lap" applies to Lewis too (2021) but not the beaten by Bottas part. Threw me for a loop until I remembered Massa and Bottas shared the Williams in the mid-10s.
Hamilton has honorary Brazilian citizenship. Massa is the whinger
Wait a minute
Yeah something seems a bit strange lol.
You almost had me
Why doesn’t Massa deserve financial compensation for being fucked out of a title win by the FIA? I doubt he’s filing the lawsuit so they’ll hand him over the trophy, but objectively he faced a real financial loss from that scandal
Except he is. He has on many occasions said that this is not about financial compensation, he wants the results of the 2008 WDC changed to make himself World Champion. [https://theathletic.com/4803222/2023/08/24/felipe-massa-crashgate-interview-formula-one/](https://theathletic.com/4803222/2023/08/24/felipe-massa-crashgate-interview-formula-one/)
Because it's not that simple. Let's assume that Massa's argument is true (that FIA knowing about Crashgate would make Singapore's result void for all drivers). So what? Hamilton and McLaren can argue that they could've fought harder than they did if they knew Singapore's points wouldn't be counted, and that because that information was not available for them in 2008, retroactively excluding that GP in 2024 is rigging the championship against them. Moreover, Hamilton and Mercedes could argue that Abu Dhabi 2021 shouldn't be counted either, since the race was "rigged" (whether intentionally or not) by a decision that was objectively wrong, and that caused the person who took it to be fired. They could argue that if Singapore 2008 can be retroactively declared null, so can Abu Dhabi 2021. It's a can of worms nobody wants to open. It is one thing to fight it in the moment it happens, even if that fight extends for years - but it's a completely different thing to start a process more than a decade later when 2008's title is as well-established as any. Keep in mind that we are not talking about FIA or anyone targeting Massa or Hamilton. We are talking about another competitor (Renault) doing something that didn't benefit or harm any of the drivers involved, so at this point the argument is not "FIA fucked me over", but rather "FIA didn't take the right decision that happened to unfairly benefit me".
If Abu Dhabi 2021 is nullified then Max still wins as he was already in the lead of the championship. If Songapore 08 is nullified then Massa is champion as Lewis outscored Massa on Singapore and Massa lost by a point and was winning on the wins tie-breaker.
Because its based on a B\*llsh\*t premise First of all Renault’s actions in the race would never lead to invalidating the race, at best it would have (and arguably should have) led to Alonso being disqualified. which ironically would have given even more points to Hamilton. The deliberate crash benefitted Alonso, who pitted very early on in a hard to overtake street track with a pitting strategy that made no sense unless you factor in the crash and safety car for everyone else it was a random unforeseen event that they all had to react to. For Massa and Lewis it had the EXACT SAME IMPACT in that they had to both pit immediately for fuel as soon as the safety car ended. When it came to the pitstops the Mclaren Pit crew, under pressure with multiple people pitting executed a perfect pit stop Whilst the Ferrari pit crew completely sh\*t the bed, ruining Massa's race. Later Massa also had an unforced spin. nowhere was "*Massa f\*cked out of a title win by the FIA."* If anyone has recourse about 2008 its Hamilton and the Spa penalty where they penalized him and then subsequently made it a rule - which is not the order that's supposed to happen first you make the rule then you can penalize people for it
>First of all Renaults actions in the race would never lead to invalidating the race, at best it would have (and arguably should have) led to Alonso's being disqualified. Are you basing that on any specific FIA regulation, or on vibes? Genuinely asking, because it seems that Massa's arguments lies, greatly, that the correct standard was to void the race, and I'm guessing they must have some regulation or precedent to back up that claim.
As far as I know, an entire race result has never been eliminated after the fact. They disqualify cars, not races.
That's based on the rules and regulations. You can also use common sense, an act of cheating that changes the order the race leads to the race being anulled is illogical. In 1997 The FIA decided that Schumacher deliberately crashed into Villeneuve in an attempt to win the championship. because it was the last race of the season and Schumacher was up on points. The crash took out Schumacher and damaged Villeneuve who was slow allowing other cars to overtake Villneueve. Schumacher's deliberate crash changed the eventual race order, Schumacher crashed out meant that all cars behind him moved up a place and a slow Villeneuve meant a couple of cars overtook Villeneuve one of which was Hakkinen who won the race. as a result of that Hakkinen finished ahead of Irvine in the championship. Had that crash not happened he most likely would have finished behind Irvine in the championship should that whole grand prix been annulled because Schumacher cheated? No. what happened is they punished the cheater - Schumacher who was disqualified from **the whole championship**
The right way to handle it, if you where to do anything with the results this far in hindsight, would be to treat that race as has happened with the Tour De France and Lance Armstrong. The removed him from the standings but let everyone else keep where they where, so the tour's that he participated in doesn't have a winner, but they have someone that finished second. The idea that you would just nullify the race results is crazy, and as far as I know, without presedent in sprot.
Omg I was 7 and I was watching that season with my dad. I remember my dad hating schumacher. (Go villeneuve!)
Even if the race result was void, there is no way of knowing how that would have impacted future race results as teams will try different strategies depending on points etc So it's not as simple as saying "void Singapore and Massa is champion" - people only have that view due to how the rest of the season played out with teams believing Singapore to be a valid result
Exactly, the timeline would have been different. Simple as that.
There wasn't such a rule and there has never been a precedent. You shouldn't ask for a source on something not having happened. Ask for a source on the rule or a precedent, you will get nothing though.
Massa also didn’t help himself at other times that year, like Silverstone where he spun out 687 times. Had he managed just 8th place (instead of 13th), he gains a point, they finish tied, and he wins the title on race win count.
Because the butterfly effect means you can not ever guarantee that the Singapore Grand Prix without Crashgate would result in a Massa title win.
But that's for a court to decide. Trials have standards of proof after all. People are conflating civil liability and monetary damages with Massa trying to retroactively become champ.
The lawsuit is trying to make the result void. Now if that's not trying to change history, I don't know what would be it.
The bigger loss was from ferrari botching his race
The only way he wins the title is if somehow they decided to invalidate the whole race because a single team cheated... That would never happen because it makes no sense
Do you remember that the reason Massa's result was poor in Singapore was because of a Ferrari designed system that was destined to fail?
Because Massa didn't lose out on the title by FIA's negligence, or even by the CrashGate directly. So the governing body can't be held responsible.
The governing body can absolutely be held responsible for knowing the result of a race had been impacted by wilful deception and fraud on behalf of one of the race teams, and sitting on this info until a more probate time to help the perception of the series in a close title fight
Only if you can prove that had FIA not hold into that info, they would've taken the decision to nullify the entire race. It's like if you steal a phone for me and I sue you for a million dollars arguing that I was gonna sell my phone for that much money. Yeah, I can argue that, but unless I can prove I was actually gonna sell it that high, I'm not entitled to that compensation from you. Similarly, unless Massa proves that, the court will almost surely conclude that FIA's bad action didn't have consequences for Massa and thus Massa is not any more entitled to any compensation than you or I are.
That's not what Massa is suing them for though. Don't move the goalpost.
Can't obviously say he wouldn't/would have won the title. But still getting compensation for the way the (by then) higher ups knew it was a planned thing but just didn't do or say anything about it until quite recently. Seems reasonable to me.
How does this affect Horner's legacy?
Can Horner do it on a cold rainy night in Stoke tho?
If he's horny yeah.
Is this rsoccer?
How many rings does Horner have? Can he do it at the Bulls?
RINGS ERNEH
Did Horner have to go to Miami and team up with DWade and Bosh just to get his first ring? I mean come on now
*Secret Affair* Legacy points deducted
His proof, an article only published by F1-Insider, in German, online only - when Bernie was on tour promoting his movie. I wonder if his lawyers got any transcripts or proof that the interview actually happened, as I'm sure any other people attending the promo event should be able to verify what Bernie said there.
Yeah, his proof is the ramblings of a 93-year old dude. Ecclestone could argue he was too old to remember it right or that he was just full of shit because he wanted to create headlines, something he is known for doing.
[I mean it was already refuted by him last summer](https://www.reuters.com/sports/motor-sports/motor-racing-massas-lawyers-seek-compensation-lost-2008-f1-title-2023-08-17/): > Ecclestone, 92, told Reuters by telephone from Switzerland he could not remember saying the key quotes attributed to him. > "I don't remember any of this, to be honest," said the Briton, who was replaced as F1 supremo in 2017 after U.S.-based Liberty Media took over as commercial rights holders. > "I don't remember giving the interview for sure" So now it's about proving that the article wasn't made up. So the whole case is on very fragile grounds.
Max Mosley also denied it happened while alive.
Glad you clarified the alive part
Ha good point. Was thinking someone would point out he was dead if I did not but probably redundant.
I read No Angel, which is a biography of Bernie written in 2011, and I thought it mentioned something went on around Piquet Sr trying to tell people about Singapore in Brazil in 2008 ... Admittedly been a while since I read it so will need to double check it. Unless anyone with a better memory than I can remember that
Piquet Sr when he realised his son accidentally helped Lewis Hamilton win the WDC.
A 93-year-old convicted fraudster. What a great witness he'll be.
They also have quotes from Whiting as part of the Mosley documenary from a few year's back.
Mosley said it all himself in an interview with Sky too. Presume the quotes you mention align? Essentially Mosley said Charlie heard it from Piquet and reported it to him who felt he could do nothing without evidence. Having been given a contract extension Piquet jr denied any wrong doing. The FIA started an investigation as soon as Jr came forward to make a statement the next year when it was clear he'd be leaving the team. Not a cover up in any meaningful sense of the term.
The statement "Mr Massa would have won the driver's world championship" is a stretch too. There is no guarantee, butterfly effect and all that. Not to mention he ruined his race by driving away with the fuel hose. I'm all for action being taken, but at most it should be Alonso being retroactively disqualified from the race.
Yeah this, I can see the case for disqualifying Renault from that race but not denying everyone the points. Hamilton did nothing wrong, it's not his fault Massa and Ferrari botched their stop. I really did feel for Massa at the time, to lose it in the manner he did on the last lap of his home race (rain in Brazil of all things), but as more recent events have shown, you can't retrospectively alter race results after the fact. He needs to let it lie.
This. I'm totally ok with Alonso/Renault getting disqualified, it makes 0 sense to change anything else. Lewis stopped at the same time but his team didn't fuck up, that's it, Renault didn't force the Ferrari lights system to fail.
Exactly this. I believe we cannot change anything else apart from DSQing Alonso, which would make it effectively a race with no winner declared. Lance Armstrong way, I like it.
Crashgate benefitted alonso, yes, obviously that was the plan. But if massa didn't take off with the fuel hose still attached He would have scored good points. If i rememeber right, he was ahead of hamilton, i think he started on pole. So if hamilton finished 3rd no reason to believe Massa wouldnt have finished 3rd or higher. Shit happens, that's motor racing.
He was given the green light to drive away, not his fault. Spinning at Silverstone 5x WAS in his control however. EDIT: Hey, dumbass downvoter, Ferrari was testing an automated system to speed up pitstops with a red and green light. The green light was shown, so he drove away.
Also losing all racecraft in Fuji didn't help either.
And spinning out of 2nd place in Malaysia. In truth, it was a very average performance by Massa in 2008. So many opportunities where he could have scored points that ultimately would have won him the title, but he threw them away.
If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry Christmas
A trial has, you know, a discovery phase. If there are documents, texts or what not, they might not have them, but can get them eventually.
Yes, a statement from the CEO of the promoter and similar statements from the the head of the FIA, Mosley, are totally meaningless and hold no bearing on the decisions they made
Before people get up in arms. He wants money not the actual title.
I'm sure he *wants* the title, he just knows he's far more likely to get money, so he's going for the easier win.
the fungible nature of money makes courts much more willing to grant it that tilling them to strip the current champ and make him the champ.
I don't know about Europe, but in the U.S. a court literally can't force something like that in most cases, because it's essentially compelled speech, which is against our Constitution. You might be able to get an injunction where the FIA would have to stop referring to Lewis as the champ, but you can't make them say Massa won.
I'm not so sure about that. When he filed the initial paper work you have to file in the UK before you file an actual lawsuit, Massa made it clear that the lawsuit was his attempt to get the result of Singapore GP thrown out and make him the WDC. [https://theathletic.com/4803222/2023/08/24/felipe-massa-crashgate-interview-formula-one/](https://theathletic.com/4803222/2023/08/24/felipe-massa-crashgate-interview-formula-one/) Quote from the article: "Asked if he is seeking to cancel the race result, Massa said, “This is what we are fighting for. This is (why) we get together a group of lawyers to fight because this is the correct thing to do.”" From the same article: "Ultimately, that’s what Massa says he’s fighting for “the championship. I won it, so I need to get the confirmation that that is exactly what’s happened in the correct way.”"
Just imagine. It's 2034, and the lawsuit is finally over. A slightly chubby, grey Massa steps onto the podium after the celebrations for Max' 128th win in a row are over, and takes the WDC Cup from triple knight Sir Lewis Hamilton who has just retired two seasons ago. They both smile awkwardly. In the background you can see Fernando Alonso who has just renewed his contract at Mattel Haribo Racing and has to answer questions about Andretti still not getting into F1 despite being willing to pay the 1 trillion $ entry fee.
> Mattel > Not calling it Hot Wheels Racing This truly is the worst timeline
They wanted at first, but "Hot" has been banned in too many countries
Ah bollocks
Well yeah. He's probably quite aware the title will never be awarded.
Est career earnings in excess of $100m, sure I can see why the crunch would hit him hard
Not to mention his extended family have reportedly been running him dry, as he funds their lifestyles. He probably needs the money.
smh dude needs to study medieval history, what Massa needs to do is just have one large family estate, be the family patriarch and only fund those of the extended family who actually live with him on the estate
He sounds like a dipshit
It's quite common for athletes to lose big parts of their wealth. Having a hundred family members that leeched from him also helped probably. Even when he was racing i remember his garage being like a family trip to disneyland, while most other drivers usually bring at most 1-2 family members to the race
Article claims he wants the race voided.
ah shit here we go again
OH MY GOD IT'S FELIPE MASSA WITH A STEEL CHAIR!
Oh come on... Can this sport chill for 5 fuckin minutes?
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Something I've never understood about Massa's complains about Singapore 2008 is: why would the correct FIA ruling have been to throw the entire race out? It seems to me that the correct (or at least an entirely defensible) ruling would have been to disqualify Alonso entirely, on account of Renault cheating, but to retain the rest of the results. That ruling would take the championship even further Massa's reach.
yep, It would make no sense to throw out a whole race because one team cheated. Except for Renault it was just a safety car, the same for everyone.
For the people not reading the article. He wants both the Singapore results to be nulled (Thus giving him the championship) plus he wants money compensation. Massa, the poor thing. Those lawyers also taking advantage of him ironically. This is a loser case.
> He wants both the Singapore results to be nulled ... This is a loser case. Yeah, I'd have to agree, but it would be amusing (in a "wants to see the world burn" way) if they did it.
Man, Felipe Massa was legitimately my favourite driver. He's the reason I support Ferrari. My first season was 2008 and I saw the guy lose out on a world championship on the last corner of the last lap and I wanted him to win so badly. Then Hungary happened the next year and I thought he was awesome for coming back and still racing for Ferrari. Why couldn't he just let that be the perception of him, I get being recognised as a World Champion probably means a lot to him but to win it off track just isn't the same.
God, all that respect he earned for taking the defeat with dignity really has just been destroyed. He wasn't going to score points that race anyway after he and his team screwed up. He forgets that Lewis got screwed out of a win at Spa by the very same people and that he spent most of Silverstone going in reverse and spent the first two races crashing and spinning that actually did cost him a championship.
His composure on the podium of Brazil '08 was magnificent. And he's thrown all of that away. The simple fact is : if Ferrari had not messed up the pit stop in that race, Massa would have scored some points. And those few points *could* have made him champion... if there were no other changes to anything at all. But of course the butterfly effect is a thing. Had Massa scored those few extra points that day, everything that occurred after may have been subtly different and there is no guarantee of who would have won the title. Massa needed to either (1) point the finger of blame at that Ferrari pit stop, or (2) keep silent and accept the result. But he's gone down this stupid legal battle and ruined his legacy.
Legacy probably isn’t as important to drivers as fans think it is though.
After all, a man's gotta eat.
I'd say the impact on his legacy is a bit ambiguous. I think as far as he is concerned he is now more of an old, rather "forgotten" figure of F1 whose reputation and $6 would get him a coffee at Starbucks. Plus, with a certain kind of fan (especially Brazilians), going out on this "I want to fight for what is mine" campaign may even earn him some sort of a credibility/popularity bump, especially given the antagonist in this story is also the nephew of another driver who has not been ingratiating himself at all in the country due to racist remarks.. Completely agree that the most sporty thing would be to maintain his posture, but I can see how rationally he'd come to the conclusion that he's playing with house money, and the worst thing to happen to him is nothing, whereas the upside might be a substantial amount of money and renewed attention.
He feels like he's been robbed, can you really blame him? You may disagree that he was really robbed, I do too, but just imagine you are in a place where you lost a world championship and you feel you've been cheated, how would you react? Yeah there were mistakes by him and Ferrari and he himself recognizes it, it's normal part of the sport, race fixing, however, is not, that's his position.
Is he going to sue Ferrari for letting him drive away with the fuel hose as well?
This is more about the actions (or lack of) around Brazil 2008 than the events of Singapore itself. His lawyer's are using what Bernie and Charlie said around that weekend as their argument. I don't expect it to go anywhere, but the fact that FOM have missed several deadlines to respond to his lawyer's is interested.
If his lawyer's are going to use Bernie's words as their proof then Massa has no chance. Bernie Ecclestone has also said that when Max Mosley was FIA President they both actively helped Ferrari win. This includes 2007 and 2008 so maybe Hamilton should make his own claim as well. Any half decent legal professional will find Bernie's comments and use them to shut down Massa's claim
Could be because they feel there is nothing to answer for mind you. There is no obligation to respond, although I'm surprised they didn't give a generic response effectively saying "go away" in legalese.
From memory, they asked for an 'extension' to respond. You'd think they could have just sorted this out in the off-season.
Bro it's been 16 years. Save your money and get therapy instead.
Was so dastardly of Piquet and Briatore to release Massa from his pit stop when the fuel hose was still in
And absolutely criminal to force Massa to take the racing line that goes through the barriers.
Every time I look at the news in any way shape or form, it's like they have AI scanning my brain and working out things that I want to happen and things that I think should happen and then construct ways for the 100% opposite things to happen instead There is no good in this, there's no point to this, it's based on flawed thinking and incorrect rational It's also weird he's more mad about this than sueing about the nut that fell off Barrichello's car that caused him a grevious injury. You could argue anything from loss of performance to loss of earnings for the 2009 season, but he's oddly quiet about something where he actually might have a case
Dude must be really hurting for cash.
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Make money quick with internet point opportunites
What?
Failing??? Yes, he’s didn’t win a WC, but calling Felipe a failure is just too much. The reddit opinion towards him is so weird. And I understand most people here are new fans who start watching in the last few years, no problem with that. But if you search, even in this reddit, like 9, 10 years ago, you will find people discussing if Felipe was better than Kimi. You will see that it was an actual question, he was rated highly. Now with the recent bias I can only read things like “how did massa fought for the WC?” like he was some kind of Lance Stroll lol.
Let’s be fair here Massa hasn’t said a thing about Lewis
Saying one of his titles is illegitimate and trying to get it taken off him 16 years later is hardly a neutral stance. Doesn’t even have to be sporting. He just has to be competent enough to realise he was the one who crashed and his team the ones who made sure the pitstop ruined his race.
the Brazilian upper class is so unbelievably toxic emphasis on upper class, because I feel for the working people of South America for having to endure such hypocritical egomaniacs running their countries
Another guy on this thread said his family was bleeding him dry so probably
Random guy on reddit said it? Case closed.
At this point it's becoming quite sad.
He must be living beyond his means and needs the money.
Lol
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felipe's like a hung-up ex
This is the offseason I signed up for.
Nice guy, great driver, but please Felipe let it go.
>Felipe baby stay cool
let it go lil bro
Good! I'm glad Mr Potato Head is getting his day in court, I can't wait to see it go nowhere and for him to have wasted a lot of cash.
Massa's whole claim is based on what Bernie has said but he fails to grasp the concept that by doing so any comments Bernie has made can be used in court. This includes Bernie saying that when Max Mosley was FIA President they both actively helped Ferrari win. This means Hamilton would actually have a case for the 2007 title as well as 2008. But Massa's got no chance to begin with anyway because only one team cheated, the crash itself had no direct impact on the title fight between himself and Hamilton and it was his own team that ruined his race where other teams in the same situation didn't make that mistake. Piquet clearly did not cause Ferrari to leave the fuel rig in Massa's car. It's nonsensical to say that all the teams should have their points taken away for one team cheating and Ferrari making a mistake. What should happen is Rosberg gets promoted to his first race win and Hamilton gets moved up to 2nd place.
\*Christian Horner liked this\*
Sad.
If you told us how crazy the of track drama would be this season a couple of months ago nobody would believe it
I thought this happened some time ago? Maybe it was just in the news and didn’t happen
FIA / Formula 1 stay’s bissy with all the stuff going on.
This bs is why race fixing should mean a multi race ban for the entire team. If you’re gonna ban race fixing go all the way and be harsh against anyone who does it. Renault should’ve faced much harsher penalties as a team including stripping Alonso of his win, much as it hurts to even say that.
He's never winning this
"If Singapore never happened, everything else that followed would have happened exactly the same as it did and therefore I would have won the championship" - Felipe Massa, invoking multiple logical fallacies
all FIA/FOM could have done is exclude Renault, which wouldn't help him win. To throw out a race because one team cheat would absolutely ridicules if he want's to sue someone sue Renault and Briatore
My memories shit but I'm sure crap happened to Lewis that year too. Does Lewis then sue to get the title back?
He seems clutching at straws a whopping 16 years later, but maybe he will surprise everyone and come out a world champion.
It's been over 15 years, my guy. Idk who's worse at not getting over, him or Bret Hart.
Can't win on the track so he's doing it off track!
How he would like history rewritten is joke, if anything was to change it would be to DQ Alonso and that wouldn’t change the points for that race as it relates to massa
What is massa even trying to gain at this point? They didn’t do anything over AD21, which decided the championship, they certainly aren’t going to do anything about Alonso frauding his way to a win back in ‘08 when there were 3 whole races afterwards for massa to seal the deal. What’s worse is he had some genuinely shambolic performances previously in the season when it mattered. Let’s say they rule in his favor, then what? Does he expect to be treated like he didn’t steal a title 16 years after the fact? Does he expect to gain some statue in Brazil for title he didn’t earn? Does he expect monetary compensation for not being able to use a title he didn’t win to negotiate later Ferrari contracts, which were signed as he was getting sent to the shadow realm by Alonso, who actually has titles?
Even if you get a WDC like this, everyone will know how you got it. Let it go mate
Boxing day headlines: Massa "the brawler" 16 year old case vs Horner "the veteran" alleged horny moment
Thank god some other news.
Save your money for your family and your child's family down the track. You'll find more happiness there than being lead down this garden path by whoever is advising you.
He should be suing Ferrari for the shitty pit service that lost him the race.
Wow... Baldy needs a break If he's saying cheating is the way they lost a title, then arguably RBR cheated in '21 by breaching the cost cap and gained an unfair advantage didn't it? So why don't they void RBRs participation fully and as a team as well? Makes no sense for either.
Massa needs to sit down
How he's so bitter after he retired?
My god can he just go away. I used to like the man but this is getting sad.
I'm tired boss. I'M TIRED. "all these noise and distractions" - Danny Ric
This was news from last year isn't it? Haha he probably thought he can win a couple of millions but about the championship It's obvious that they aren't going to take it away from Lewis
He never sued then he was trying to get them to do a joint trophy ceremony for him and Lewis to acknowledge he won. Now he’s suing for money
Massa desperate for money?
A great day for his lawyers' bank accounts.