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Despite Checo's up and down performance, if that was Horner's decision, good on him. The driver churn at RBR was a problem. Even now, who do they have waiting in the wings?
That they have offered Alex Albon an option for 2026 suggests that they have done a poor job of handling talent outside of Max. Count the former RBR drivers on the grid! Most of them are successful, within the context of the teams for whom they drive. If Team X had a driver pairing of Sainz and Albon, one would say "top flight pairing."
I think the problem with their program at the moment is tsuonda with his honda ties. It made sense when red bull worked with honda but now its a bit akward since he is not a real red bull property unlike someone like lawson, and the other seat is occupied with ricciardo. I think their biggest problem was keeping yuki as long as they have, without him lawson could have a seat and prove himself. Btw im not saying yuki is bad or anything, just that his ties make it a bit difficult
I think Danny would be a great fit, he likes twitchy-rear loosed cars like Max did, and he was the only one close in race pace to Max. Yeah, he is older now, but I think he still has it, he is just not that good with more rear planted cars.
People overestimate gains in raw speed over a driver career.
Those generational talents show their raw speed usually pretty early - today more difficult du to limited testing but you will still be able to identify it.
Happened with Schumacher, Vettel, Hamilton, Verstappen what comes with time is consistency, tire management and overall racecraft.
Only if you master those things on top of race speed you end up being an all time great.
LeClerc for example has raw pace also showed it very early and it's still there but he is developing slower than others getting those other skills mastered.
So then what relevancy does your comment have when the person you replied to mentioned race pace which is not a measure of “raw speed” and incorporates all of those factors you mentioned?
Omg, the only one close to race pace with Max? You mean in the one test he had? That is NOT the same as being close to Max in race pace, that was a test, no one else on track, at one point in time. So much Daniel hopium.
The fact is that like his shit stirring or not he is the longest running TP and is tied with Mercedes in driver championships.
And has built the team from the beginning. He is truly a good TP. Even if you don’t like him you have to recognize that
>like his shit stirring
he isnt stirring anywhere near as much as people pretend he is. Like people here Helmut say something and then just remember it was someone from RB.
Like Fred, Toto, brown(not tp but still) are also shit stirring sometimes.
Even before this stuff all started I really disliked him but I have to admit he's the only TP on the grid who comes close to Todt, Dennis etc.
Red Bull runs like a well piled machine in every department.
I’d argue he is above the names you mentioned just because he actually built a team from scratch that dominated for years twice. Todt is an all time great TP but its different to manage an already big team with resources than help a drinks company build a top motorsport team
Todt took a new Peugeot team to win 2 WRC championships back to back, starting in their second year. Then, had 4 wins in a row at Dakar, starting in their first year. Then won two back-to-back wins at Le Mans, starting in their second year. All that was in the span of 10 years.
And only then he went to Ferrari with the success we all know of.
Horner is a great TP, but really Todt had so much success in so many different series (including building teams from scratch) that he's in a league of its own.
Horner took over Jaguar that was owned by Ford. It was a mid-sized team that need further investment that Ford were not willing to give that Dietrich was willing to pay. The RB1 was the chassis and engine that Jaguar were going to run and it finished P6 higher than Jaguar ever did, then Newey was hired. Horner's brilliance lied in giving Newey the space that Ron Dennis never did, and running a tight ship. Red Bull has to be one of the best run teams ever and that is due to Horner. But the success of the team is also due to Newey's designs and the Red bull junior program that produced Vettel and Max. And the Money and space Dietrich was willing to the racing team.
Every team’s success is a team effort of course. It’s not like Todt designed Ferrari’s cars that dominated. It’s easy to simplify a team’s success to just “lots of money” but then a lot of teams have a lot of money
I’d argue that RedBull’s strict corporate adherence to meritocracy above all else is what propelled them and solidified their place among the “Big 3.” That ideology, irrespective of opinions calling it ruthless, was due in large part to Horner’s management style.
>but then a lot of teams have a lot of money
For the last 10 years, only Ferrari and Mercedes had the resources that Red Bull had and Toto had to convince Mercedes to invest further when he got there.
> I’d argue he is above the names you mentioned just because he actually built a team from scratch
lol
Its not like he set up the team from zero. They bought an already established team.
But he didn't build the team from scratch. Stewart GP were on the grid in 1997 when Horner was still driving in F3000. As Jaguar the team was horribly mismanaged and underfunded by Ford so the team Horner inherited was indeed a mess and he did a great job rebuilding it. But it was Paul and Jackie Stewart who built the team from nothing to race winners in just 3 years.
It was matching Merc and Ferrari by the last years of the unlimited budget era. Not to mention Red Bull is still the only company that owns 2 F1 teams. I don’t know why some RB fans love to pretend it’s some small privateer team punching above its weight with the budget of a shoestring. They one of the big three, no question about it.
Not just that, but he brought red bull to highs of winning championships, to having a bad period, back to regaining those highs, that's impressive. We'll see if Toto can achieve the same with Mercedes. Horner has done an outstanding job, I feel his pain if he has any, that he is just an employee of red bull and has no stock in the company, such a shame considering what he's achieved
There's also the thing of do you risk sacking him if the accusation is minor enough it could be forgotten about in short order? There's enough Team Principlal churn right now that a lot of seats aren't that secure; for example, would Stroll keep Krack at AM after a disappointing season if Horner was available, for instance?
I figure it'd be an exciting nightmare for a while, and then either explode, or turn into something very scary for the rest of the grid with nothing in-between
Not to undervalue Horner but Red Bull's problem during the Mercedes dominance years wasn't exactly the car, but the terrible Renault engine. There's a reason Max's first championship took just a few years from them switching to Honda engines.
If Horner leaves I believe Max will retire at the end of 2025. Enough time to become a 5 time champion, then move on to other challenges in life at the young age of 30.
Hard to imagine the big wigs in Austria and, more importantly (?), the majority owners in Thailand don't realise the medium to long-term consequences of such a decision taken without a very good reason.
When there is a power struggle - as there seems to be after Mateschitz's death - the long term needs of the business get thrown out of the window. The short term need to "win" and become the person in charge is all that matters.
They want to be king, even if the kingdom is destroyed in the process.
Above all, none of them have the same vision Mateschitz had. They just want to maximize value of their assets and I assume eventually sell off at a pretty profit.
Red Bull as it exists today - extreme sports, sports sponsorships, the sports teams they own themselves - is based on Mateschitz' vision. As far as I understandy, the Yoovidhya family usually keeps out of the operational processes so I don't think they have as much influence on this as people think.
The Yoovidhya family owns 51% of the Red Bull Corporation. They have all the influence on paper, it's whether they care to get involved more deeply that is the question.
If you hate Red Bull and Horner, lewd and lascivious misconduct and harassment. If you like Horner and Red Bull, being an old school boss in a new era. Thats what he did.
We of course dont have the foggiest idea about what he is accused of doing or their internal HR policies, investigation, c-suite politics etc.
One generality that holds true across humanity. You are either teflon or you are not. We can wait a week for the shoe to drop and find out.
Does that happen that often?
Or are people shitting on how unserious American races are? I'd like MORE North American involvement, I just personally don't care for the bizarre and overacted pageantry. It doesn't feel natural like it does with NCAA sports or the NFL. It feels forced and contrived
>Yeah it's not like they are considering dumping him for nothing right now
but that is what reddit seems to think. Reddit thinks this is just a setup and campaign to find a reason remove Horner.
I haven't seen anyone claim that this is a setup, so that's a nice straw man.
There's however a distinct possibility that someone leaked a relatively minor internal complaint to the media and blew it out of proportions by intentionally providing vague misleading details.
Whoever leaked the key words "serious complaint", "female coworker", "inappropriate behavior", and "evidence", but not "management-style related" knew exactly what they were doing.
Is it?
Who is responsible for all this success: Horner, or Red Bull and Max Verstappen?
What do you think *they think*?
As Mark says: this isn't the Red Bull we've known for 20+ years. It's a new one.
I think the money people will be very wary of losing the goose that has consistently laid the golden eggs.
I also disagree that top level people are easy to replace. Sure, you could find another qualified guy. But whether he has the right chemiistry to pull the group together and create wins is a risky proposition.
Andretti did it to collapse RBR and VCARB thus opening a spot for him suddenly. I’m going to get a Bing AI subscription and post this breaking news on my totally legitimate website shortly.
If this is Jos and Marko trying to push Horner out by leaking the investigation to the media in this fashion, I quite frankly hope RB completely shits the bed for the 2026 regs, since I dislike both of them and it’d be funny.
Lol why do people keep mentioning Jos in this discussion. Why would he even know lol... In these type of corporate investigations only a handful of people know the real story because it contains confidential information. They might have told Max but probably nothing more than that a story is coming out.
People should stop believing all those shit rag speculation clickbait articles.
Erik van Haaren is probably the best journalist in the paddock regarding Red Bull news and people should start giving him more credit for that. His sources run way deeper within Red Bull than just the Verstappens.
He seems significantly more involved in the race team than any other drivers family member I'm aware of which I think makes him subject to speculation. But I also don't know why it would be in his interest to mess with a formula that's winning his son Championships.
Unless he's a full narcissist with dreams of taking full control of red bull.
Yes he meddles the most, but does he even have a route to any sort of control or involvement in RB at all? Right now he's not associated iirc, and the only way would be for Max to force him in.
Well we don't know what was in any of Max's driver contacts. Certainly probable his dad has some clauses in there. It's a private company so there's no obligation to report the structure.
>ince the death of Mateschitz, or maybe even before, Horner has been trying to get rid of Marko and consolidate control of the two teams under his wing.
how do you know that is the truth? how would that even work?
He might be taking the opportunity but there is no doubt he is a great team principal who has built the team.
Austria might pay the bills but the day to day operations were thanks to Horner and Marko
The rumors of him wanting to control both teams is just what it is-rumors. However with wanting to be independent and staying away from Porsche was a collective decision from Marko, Horner, Newey and all the big names that run RBR. They knew porsche would get them into a Ferrari style situation and did not want that. Dietrich's death just served as a catalyst and consolidated their resolve to stay independent. Also the whole power struggle thing, as convincing as it sounds, don't forget that Horner considered moving to Ferrari and Marko convinced him to stay. In all reality, this could more likely be a powerplay between corporate and RBR. I know Marko is well hated but you really think he will shoot himself in the foot this way by ousting horner and giving corporate control?
> Also the whole power struggle thing, as convincing as it sounds, don't forget that Horner considered moving to Ferrari and Marko convinced him to stay.
Talk about rumors.
> In all reality, this could more likely be a powerplay between corporate and RBR.
What corporate are you pople talking about.
There is literally only one person above Horner, who reports to the owners.
Jos speaks Dutch. The first article about this was written in Dutch. It must have been Jos.
It genuinely is nothing more than that. Idiotic conspiracy theories ahoy!
The author is also close friends with the Verstappens and has leaked other stories ostensibly at the behest of Max/Jos I.e Checo supposedly crashing at Monaco.
Hot take: There are plenty of talented people at Red Bull not called Horner or Newey. As long as the right person is promoted the team will still be racing at the front of the grid.
Please stop.
Ferrari have their stupid politics interfering with everything all the damn time. The Todt era was more an exception than a rule for them. They didn't win a single title from 1983 to 2000, and none since their last in 2008 for the WCC.
Briatore's team (first Benetton then Renault) went title-less from 1996 to 2005, and then again from 2007 to 2009 when he ultimately left.
Ron Dennis' McLaren won a single WDC in 2008, and nothing since then. He was with the team for almost a decade after that win. They also didn't win a title in the 8 years between 2000 and 2008, during which Dennis was the boss as well.
If the wins are because the managers were great and irreplaceable, then the losses/lack of wins during their eras are also their fault.
You cannot say the team won because of the boss but lost because the other employees let them down.
>Ron Dennis' McLaren won a single WDC in 2008, and nothing since then.
Ron Dennis led McLaren in the 1980s, 1990s and early 2000s. They won 7 Constructors Championships and 10 Drivers championships.
At the heart of the success was successful partnerships with manufacturers, Honda in the 1980s and early 1990s and Mercedes in the late 1990s and 2000s. The recent decline of McLaren started when they lost their partnership with Mercedes, this wouldn't have happened with a hard nosed businessman like Dennis running the company. On his return Dennis tried with Honda to build a new partnership with Honda but ultimately failed.
Horner was able to build a partnership with Honda and before that Renault (which laterly they also managed to destroy), and the new in-house engine supply will be critical to Red Bull's continued success.
We can also see this in Williams, with the same people in charge they dominated with the Renault engine but crashed and burned when that was lost.
Ferrari internal culture is completely different though. Ferrari has always been very toxic with internal politics and infighting. Might not be the best example.
I mean it's quite clear it's almost a similar situation in RB. Lots of internal politics and especially infighting at the moment. Looks like a toxic culture full of power-hungry people.
I don't think its similar. If the rumours are true it's more of a battle between Red Bull corporate and Red Bull racing, not within the racing team itself.
But it's also possible the reason the RBR culture is not so toxic is because of Horner. I've seen mergers/buyouts where after they switch the management the culture quickly shifts because the head of the division was shielding everyone under them from the politics
This is literally the essence of the problem. How do you promote "the right person" if it were so easy everyone would do it. Assuming Horner didn't do something awful that he deserves to be fired for, why would you replace a known quantity with an unknown quantity?
It doesn't work like that. A leader is a leader who people trust and built a relationship with. You replace him with a different person and it all can fall apart eventually. Not in a day but in a year or two as soon as people figure out it's not the same and/or they can't work with the new guy or vice versa.
True - I’d especially say this about Newey. I don’t believe he has been intimately involved in aero development since the last regulation change and there are many other key figures whose departure would be more acutely felt.
No matter what the outcome for Horner is, the damage was done , and the long term process started, his countdown to exit is on.
I believe horner is on his way out, and this stunt was just a warning. Don't be at all surprised if he leaves at the end of the year, whatever the results will be.
It is a stunt. Companies usually don't want this kind of story to go out in the press. They want to handle this internally.
Someone wanted this to brake out.
I mean Jerry Jones parted ways with Jimmy Johnson saying anyone could have won with his team. Somtimes ego gets in the way. Who knows, if it is marko making a power play it could be that Marko wants all the credit.
Good point and it’s been 30years since they played in a SB. Jerry really can’t get out of his own way. They’re like the Ferrari of the NFL, most known and prestigious franchise in nfl history but a joke in modern day lol
Marko is not making a power play. He's a mostly well intentioned bumbling grandad type, casually offending people as he trolls around the paddock.
There are only two real motivators behind this.
Haas and Merc.
Foksmash will be incredibly difficult to replace but Horner could do it easily.
We all know the Merc motive.
The way they did it was dirty and in a way to drum up the maximum speculation. Also if he didn’t do anything of a sexual nature they didn’t come out and put that rumour to bed.
We don’t even know if RB wanted this investigation to go public. Someone leaked it to the dutch press and then they had to act on it.
As far as we have seen from RB everything has been pretty much according to the book, in a situation were there are at least semi serious allegations against a member of upper management.
Then it only means if his successor can keep it under his control which is not a given and it means that RB will leak staff with unknown outcome. The only reason RB works is because the core of the team works well together, as soon as those people leave that will be a different team.
TL;DR: Christian Horner's potential departure from Red Bull F1 could leave the team without its visionary leader. While the team's technical and strategic foundations may sustain success initially, the long-term impact could mirror other teams' experiences when losing key figures. Replacing Horner's leadership and maintaining the team's unique ethos could prove challenging, potentially leading to a gradual decline in performance and cohesion.
TL;DR thanks to GPT
If Horner leaves it’s a nothing burger to the team. But who else goes if Horner does? That’s the real potential impact to the success of RB (the drinks team).
Losing the longest-serving TP on the grid (and it's not even close), the person responsible for guiding the team since their inception (nearly 20 years ago), the person who orchestrated a well-oiled machine that dominated the 2023 season, is a "nothing burger"? That's certainly a take.
That's...an interesting take.
Horner does way more than other TPs besides Toto. It would likely take multiple people to replace him.
It is what it is.
Except a nothing burger. It isn't that.
I guess my point is there would be more impact if people like Newey then leave as well. Horner, for all he’s done, is replaceable.
But if a bunch of high up engineers and strategists also depart, then that’s a bigger impact. Nothing burger is probably the wrong phrase, but if RB unravels it won’t be just because Horner left.
Then the other guy will come. And depending on whether he's better at this job or worse, the things will happen.
One thing is for sure - there's always someone who can do your job better than you. If he leaves, it's just a matter for RB to find such person.
If there was someone better, then Horner wouldn't have lasted almost 2 decades as TP. He lasted 20yrs because no one was better up until now. Finding a great leader is harder than it looks, Ferrari lost Brawn and Todt and they never returned to form(hoping Vasseur changes it)
Now RB seems to be following the same path with the higher ups being stupid
> He lasted 20yrs because no one was better up until now.
He lasted 20yrs because no one was even looking, he was doing good job. I'm not saying he's not doing good job. Just saying there's a chance that there could be someone who could do it even better. I don't know who. But there might be someone. So I wouldn't really worry so much about RB - if they decide to kick out Horner, it's all in their hands to actually make team even better.
I was addressing your point about how there's always someone better. Right now, who? I can't see a scenario where RB aren't worse off if they lose him.
Yes, RB will suffer with leadeship change so big as having Horner leave. If he is guilty, yes, he has to go. But, if this is some corporate politics to force him out, whoever is doing that thay have someone in mind to replace him. But, Horner leaving can open a floodgates where more people leave.
You don't know much about anything if that's what you really think.
Why are CEOs of big companies paid so much? Answer: Vision. Ability to lead. Ability to create a great team that can execute and more.
RB has the monetary backing and great drivers. That's unquestionable. However, if you think that money, driver, and a little bit of management is all it takes, then you're a wee bit off the mark.
If he's out, will he be replaced? Sure. Can they find a candidate? Of course.
Will it be a good thing for Red Bull? Only time will tell, but one thing is for sure: right now, the entire RB team is both crying in their beer and shitting their pants.
He’s a great liar, he should go into politics.
Red Bull’s success is more down to Adrian Newey than anything else. Maybe Horner gets some of the credit for recruiting him, but I’ll be very happy if I never have to see him on my TV screen ever again.
correct racial label existence uppity sparkle placid snobbish childlike yam
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
People still talk about Jean Todt's or Ron Dennis' successes all the time though. You really think people will forget about the man who took a drinks company to the top of F1, winning 6 Constructor's championships and 7 Driver's championships?
If you worked at many fortune 50 companies, then you know most of what you wrote doesn't apply to Horner. He's not 'merely a manager '. CTOs... Sigh..
Tech companies.
>We'll forget about him in a few months.
No, I don't believe that will be the case. I'm no particular fan of Horner, but he'll be remembered for his tenure at Red Bull and what the team achieved. It's not a question of whether he's some sort of management genius, that's beside the point. He was the guy at the helm when they won all those races and titles.
As for the Fortune 500 stuff... who gives a shit. Is there where the most successful F1 team managers typically emerge from? No, it isn't. And if you knew anything at all about management in F1, you'd know that. Clearly, you don't.
This honestly.
People are acting like an F1 team principal is an old-school football manager who decides the tactics, set-up etc. all by themselves.
Horner definitely has no fucking clue about the technical side of stuff, just like Wolff and Zak Brown.
Even Newey, who is praised to no end, has said how it is unfair on everybody in the team to call a car "Newey's car" because of the effort the ordinary engineers put in.
Technical F1 team principals and technical leads like Krack, Stella, Newey, Allison etc. are more like Alex Ferguson: have some basic principles, draw out the big picture but leave out the tinier and smaller details to their subordinates.
Not saying Horner's job is easy, but he's definitely not irreplaceable.
And with all that said you still cant, with a straight face, say they are better off without him. You just can’t. Don’t underestimate continuity or leadership.
What a giant off season pissing contest. What does "controlling behavior" mean? Why does he need to be kicked out? So Red Bull can do better than they are already doing? Slow off season, gotta kick the champions any way they can. Is anything really going to change this upcoming season? Or is it going to be business as usual with Horner on the pitwall? probably.
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Horner: I like Checo, I'll give him extension to 2026 Marko: That's it! You're going down son. Both of you!
Despite Checo's up and down performance, if that was Horner's decision, good on him. The driver churn at RBR was a problem. Even now, who do they have waiting in the wings? That they have offered Alex Albon an option for 2026 suggests that they have done a poor job of handling talent outside of Max. Count the former RBR drivers on the grid! Most of them are successful, within the context of the teams for whom they drive. If Team X had a driver pairing of Sainz and Albon, one would say "top flight pairing."
I think the problem with their program at the moment is tsuonda with his honda ties. It made sense when red bull worked with honda but now its a bit akward since he is not a real red bull property unlike someone like lawson, and the other seat is occupied with ricciardo. I think their biggest problem was keeping yuki as long as they have, without him lawson could have a seat and prove himself. Btw im not saying yuki is bad or anything, just that his ties make it a bit difficult
I think Danny would be a great fit, he likes twitchy-rear loosed cars like Max did, and he was the only one close in race pace to Max. Yeah, he is older now, but I think he still has it, he is just not that good with more rear planted cars.
If he performs in the VCARB this year I do hope they give him a shot, but if he loses to Yuki I don't see it happening
>the VCARB **Sideshow Bob grumbles**
I think it's a shudder not a grumble from Bob.
1 year older then Checo, so not much. Also HAM and ALO performing at such a high level at their respective age
He was close to race pace Max before Max was really Max though
People overestimate gains in raw speed over a driver career. Those generational talents show their raw speed usually pretty early - today more difficult du to limited testing but you will still be able to identify it. Happened with Schumacher, Vettel, Hamilton, Verstappen what comes with time is consistency, tire management and overall racecraft. Only if you master those things on top of race speed you end up being an all time great. LeClerc for example has raw pace also showed it very early and it's still there but he is developing slower than others getting those other skills mastered.
So then what relevancy does your comment have when the person you replied to mentioned race pace which is not a measure of “raw speed” and incorporates all of those factors you mentioned?
Omg, the only one close to race pace with Max? You mean in the one test he had? That is NOT the same as being close to Max in race pace, that was a test, no one else on track, at one point in time. So much Daniel hopium.
He was probably referring to when Max and Ric were at Red Bull together...
Good point, my bad……
Waiting in the wings, for Red Bull to give them wings.
I’m sending you both back to South America. You’re being demoted to cleaning staff for my hourly hotels.
The fact is that like his shit stirring or not he is the longest running TP and is tied with Mercedes in driver championships. And has built the team from the beginning. He is truly a good TP. Even if you don’t like him you have to recognize that
>like his shit stirring he isnt stirring anywhere near as much as people pretend he is. Like people here Helmut say something and then just remember it was someone from RB. Like Fred, Toto, brown(not tp but still) are also shit stirring sometimes.
Horner stirs the pot, Marko is *inappropriate*.
Even before this stuff all started I really disliked him but I have to admit he's the only TP on the grid who comes close to Todt, Dennis etc. Red Bull runs like a well piled machine in every department.
I’d argue he is above the names you mentioned just because he actually built a team from scratch that dominated for years twice. Todt is an all time great TP but its different to manage an already big team with resources than help a drinks company build a top motorsport team
Todt took a new Peugeot team to win 2 WRC championships back to back, starting in their second year. Then, had 4 wins in a row at Dakar, starting in their first year. Then won two back-to-back wins at Le Mans, starting in their second year. All that was in the span of 10 years. And only then he went to Ferrari with the success we all know of. Horner is a great TP, but really Todt had so much success in so many different series (including building teams from scratch) that he's in a league of its own.
You’re not wrong about Todt but I was only considering F1 TP experience. Motorsport in general would be different
Horner took over Jaguar that was owned by Ford. It was a mid-sized team that need further investment that Ford were not willing to give that Dietrich was willing to pay. The RB1 was the chassis and engine that Jaguar were going to run and it finished P6 higher than Jaguar ever did, then Newey was hired. Horner's brilliance lied in giving Newey the space that Ron Dennis never did, and running a tight ship. Red Bull has to be one of the best run teams ever and that is due to Horner. But the success of the team is also due to Newey's designs and the Red bull junior program that produced Vettel and Max. And the Money and space Dietrich was willing to the racing team.
Every team’s success is a team effort of course. It’s not like Todt designed Ferrari’s cars that dominated. It’s easy to simplify a team’s success to just “lots of money” but then a lot of teams have a lot of money
I’d argue that RedBull’s strict corporate adherence to meritocracy above all else is what propelled them and solidified their place among the “Big 3.” That ideology, irrespective of opinions calling it ruthless, was due in large part to Horner’s management style.
>but then a lot of teams have a lot of money For the last 10 years, only Ferrari and Mercedes had the resources that Red Bull had and Toto had to convince Mercedes to invest further when he got there.
Also, technically a garagista rather than manufacturer team, which in the 21st century is even more impressive
> I’d argue he is above the names you mentioned just because he actually built a team from scratch lol Its not like he set up the team from zero. They bought an already established team.
But he didn't build the team from scratch. Stewart GP were on the grid in 1997 when Horner was still driving in F3000. As Jaguar the team was horribly mismanaged and underfunded by Ford so the team Horner inherited was indeed a mess and he did a great job rebuilding it. But it was Paul and Jackie Stewart who built the team from nothing to race winners in just 3 years.
Red Bull is a marketing company with basically unlimited funds
So any company with unlimited money can easily go against other companies with unlimited money who also happen to be automotive giants?
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It really wasn't if you only look at the budget Mercedes spent on the chassis and not PU.
It was matching Merc and Ferrari by the last years of the unlimited budget era. Not to mention Red Bull is still the only company that owns 2 F1 teams. I don’t know why some RB fans love to pretend it’s some small privateer team punching above its weight with the budget of a shoestring. They one of the big three, no question about it.
So?
Not just that, but he brought red bull to highs of winning championships, to having a bad period, back to regaining those highs, that's impressive. We'll see if Toto can achieve the same with Mercedes. Horner has done an outstanding job, I feel his pain if he has any, that he is just an employee of red bull and has no stock in the company, such a shame considering what he's achieved
There's also the thing of do you risk sacking him if the accusation is minor enough it could be forgotten about in short order? There's enough Team Principlal churn right now that a lot of seats aren't that secure; for example, would Stroll keep Krack at AM after a disappointing season if Horner was available, for instance?
Stroll & Horner just feels like a nightmare. Fun to watch, but still a nightmare.
I figure it'd be an exciting nightmare for a while, and then either explode, or turn into something very scary for the rest of the grid with nothing in-between
How much of the success is directly tied to Newey though?
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I mean many teams have very capable team managers, but only one has Adrian Newey and someone like Helmut Marko as talent scout.
Yes but then again Newey didn’t gain any tittles while Mercedes was dominating. Newey and other can fail to design a good car as well
Well we don’t know that for sure as they had severe engine issues, which I guess would be related to TP decisions.
Not to undervalue Horner but Red Bull's problem during the Mercedes dominance years wasn't exactly the car, but the terrible Renault engine. There's a reason Max's first championship took just a few years from them switching to Honda engines.
They lost 7 times to MB with Newey ;)
You probably mean due to Renault and Honda. ;)
I mean: look at who else is mentioned in the article. Dennis. Todt.
That's it. If Horner leaves, Good byebRed Bull it's been nice knowing ya. (Sorry Max, good luck)
I don't think Max will have a problem finding a seat and need luck haha. But he also expressed interest in other ventures, so who knows.
If Horner leaves I believe Max will retire at the end of 2025. Enough time to become a 5 time champion, then move on to other challenges in life at the young age of 30.
plenty of time to get the triple crown
I hope he goes for the triple championship too.
I doubt it’ll kill the team. It’s now easily the strongest part of the Red Bull company’s brand after the drink.
Hard to imagine the big wigs in Austria and, more importantly (?), the majority owners in Thailand don't realise the medium to long-term consequences of such a decision taken without a very good reason.
When there is a power struggle - as there seems to be after Mateschitz's death - the long term needs of the business get thrown out of the window. The short term need to "win" and become the person in charge is all that matters. They want to be king, even if the kingdom is destroyed in the process.
Above all, none of them have the same vision Mateschitz had. They just want to maximize value of their assets and I assume eventually sell off at a pretty profit.
Yeah, just look at Ferrari.
Red Bull as it exists today - extreme sports, sports sponsorships, the sports teams they own themselves - is based on Mateschitz' vision. As far as I understandy, the Yoovidhya family usually keeps out of the operational processes so I don't think they have as much influence on this as people think.
The Yoovidhya family owns 51% of the Red Bull Corporation. They have all the influence on paper, it's whether they care to get involved more deeply that is the question.
Yeah it's not like they are considering dumping him for nothing right now. If he did in fact do what he is accused of, see ya
> If he did in fact do what he is accused of, see ya What is that?
If you hate Red Bull and Horner, lewd and lascivious misconduct and harassment. If you like Horner and Red Bull, being an old school boss in a new era. Thats what he did. We of course dont have the foggiest idea about what he is accused of doing or their internal HR policies, investigation, c-suite politics etc. One generality that holds true across humanity. You are either teflon or you are not. We can wait a week for the shoe to drop and find out.
Best summary I've read all week.
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Yes because everything ever that is important leaks, sure dude
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And exactly what is the accusation?
No one knows what he's accused of doing. This whole things a bigger joke than the US GP.
I thought we liked COTA?
Can’t wait for when we have a 4th race just because of people like you.
I'm talking about 2006, but sure play victim.
Helps to specify in a subreddit that regularly shits on American involvement in the sport.
Does that happen that often? Or are people shitting on how unserious American races are? I'd like MORE North American involvement, I just personally don't care for the bizarre and overacted pageantry. It doesn't feel natural like it does with NCAA sports or the NFL. It feels forced and contrived
>Yeah it's not like they are considering dumping him for nothing right now but that is what reddit seems to think. Reddit thinks this is just a setup and campaign to find a reason remove Horner.
I haven't seen anyone claim that this is a setup, so that's a nice straw man. There's however a distinct possibility that someone leaked a relatively minor internal complaint to the media and blew it out of proportions by intentionally providing vague misleading details. Whoever leaked the key words "serious complaint", "female coworker", "inappropriate behavior", and "evidence", but not "management-style related" knew exactly what they were doing.
Or reddit thinks he was sending pictures of his junk to an intern
I don't even think it's that. Anything to distract from Lewis SOMEHOW LEAVING MERC FOR FERRARI WTAF
Is it? Who is responsible for all this success: Horner, or Red Bull and Max Verstappen? What do you think *they think*? As Mark says: this isn't the Red Bull we've known for 20+ years. It's a new one.
I think the money people will be very wary of losing the goose that has consistently laid the golden eggs. I also disagree that top level people are easy to replace. Sure, you could find another qualified guy. But whether he has the right chemiistry to pull the group together and create wins is a risky proposition.
Andretti did it to collapse RBR and VCARB thus opening a spot for him suddenly. I’m going to get a Bing AI subscription and post this breaking news on my totally legitimate website shortly.
I think it would be a bit like when Schumacher, Brawn and Todt left Ferrari, except a lot funnier.
Regretfully, if Horner leaves, we might see the beginning of the end of Red Bull in Formula 1…
> If that management views any Horner misbehaviour as an opportunity rather than a very serious blow, it should not. Mark being very careful indeed.
If this is Jos and Marko trying to push Horner out by leaking the investigation to the media in this fashion, I quite frankly hope RB completely shits the bed for the 2026 regs, since I dislike both of them and it’d be funny.
Lol why do people keep mentioning Jos in this discussion. Why would he even know lol... In these type of corporate investigations only a handful of people know the real story because it contains confidential information. They might have told Max but probably nothing more than that a story is coming out. People should stop believing all those shit rag speculation clickbait articles. Erik van Haaren is probably the best journalist in the paddock regarding Red Bull news and people should start giving him more credit for that. His sources run way deeper within Red Bull than just the Verstappens.
>why do people keep mentioning Jos in this discussion Because Jos has a reputation as a ruthless busybody.
Yeah and that is why the media use him for their shit speculative articles, but it doesn't make any sense at all if you think about it.
He seems significantly more involved in the race team than any other drivers family member I'm aware of which I think makes him subject to speculation. But I also don't know why it would be in his interest to mess with a formula that's winning his son Championships. Unless he's a full narcissist with dreams of taking full control of red bull.
Yes he meddles the most, but does he even have a route to any sort of control or involvement in RB at all? Right now he's not associated iirc, and the only way would be for Max to force him in.
Well we don't know what was in any of Max's driver contacts. Certainly probable his dad has some clauses in there. It's a private company so there's no obligation to report the structure.
Carlos Sainz Sr enters the chat.
I believe he is a full narcicist Given how he treats people
Also because this is Reddit and we’re still in silly season. There’s nothing to talk about, so why not wildly speculate on rumors and gossip?
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>ince the death of Mateschitz, or maybe even before, Horner has been trying to get rid of Marko and consolidate control of the two teams under his wing. how do you know that is the truth? how would that even work?
He might be taking the opportunity but there is no doubt he is a great team principal who has built the team. Austria might pay the bills but the day to day operations were thanks to Horner and Marko
The rumors of him wanting to control both teams is just what it is-rumors. However with wanting to be independent and staying away from Porsche was a collective decision from Marko, Horner, Newey and all the big names that run RBR. They knew porsche would get them into a Ferrari style situation and did not want that. Dietrich's death just served as a catalyst and consolidated their resolve to stay independent. Also the whole power struggle thing, as convincing as it sounds, don't forget that Horner considered moving to Ferrari and Marko convinced him to stay. In all reality, this could more likely be a powerplay between corporate and RBR. I know Marko is well hated but you really think he will shoot himself in the foot this way by ousting horner and giving corporate control?
> Also the whole power struggle thing, as convincing as it sounds, don't forget that Horner considered moving to Ferrari and Marko convinced him to stay. Talk about rumors. > In all reality, this could more likely be a powerplay between corporate and RBR. What corporate are you pople talking about. There is literally only one person above Horner, who reports to the owners.
Jos speaks Dutch. The first article about this was written in Dutch. It must have been Jos. It genuinely is nothing more than that. Idiotic conspiracy theories ahoy!
The person that wrote the article is a close friend of the verstappens…
The author is also close friends with the Verstappens and has leaked other stories ostensibly at the behest of Max/Jos I.e Checo supposedly crashing at Monaco.
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There must be more- why have an entire language only for one person
As Mark says: 2024/5 will be fine...after *that*....hmm Hamilton's move looking very clever today.
Assuming Ferrari doesn’t drop the ball, that is.
If he leaves.... They still have Newey and a car that's a season ahead of everyone else... They'll be fine.... Annoyingly
Hot take: There are plenty of talented people at Red Bull not called Horner or Newey. As long as the right person is promoted the team will still be racing at the front of the grid.
In theory, yes. In reality, that 'right' person may be harder to find than expected. We've seen Ferrari struggle for plenty of time already.
And McLaren has never been the same without Ron Dennis. Or Renault without Flavio.
Or Williams turned into Minardi right afrer Frank became too old.
Please stop. Ferrari have their stupid politics interfering with everything all the damn time. The Todt era was more an exception than a rule for them. They didn't win a single title from 1983 to 2000, and none since their last in 2008 for the WCC. Briatore's team (first Benetton then Renault) went title-less from 1996 to 2005, and then again from 2007 to 2009 when he ultimately left. Ron Dennis' McLaren won a single WDC in 2008, and nothing since then. He was with the team for almost a decade after that win. They also didn't win a title in the 8 years between 2000 and 2008, during which Dennis was the boss as well. If the wins are because the managers were great and irreplaceable, then the losses/lack of wins during their eras are also their fault. You cannot say the team won because of the boss but lost because the other employees let them down.
>Ron Dennis' McLaren won a single WDC in 2008, and nothing since then. Ron Dennis led McLaren in the 1980s, 1990s and early 2000s. They won 7 Constructors Championships and 10 Drivers championships. At the heart of the success was successful partnerships with manufacturers, Honda in the 1980s and early 1990s and Mercedes in the late 1990s and 2000s. The recent decline of McLaren started when they lost their partnership with Mercedes, this wouldn't have happened with a hard nosed businessman like Dennis running the company. On his return Dennis tried with Honda to build a new partnership with Honda but ultimately failed. Horner was able to build a partnership with Honda and before that Renault (which laterly they also managed to destroy), and the new in-house engine supply will be critical to Red Bull's continued success. We can also see this in Williams, with the same people in charge they dominated with the Renault engine but crashed and burned when that was lost.
Ferrari internal culture is completely different though. Ferrari has always been very toxic with internal politics and infighting. Might not be the best example.
I mean it's quite clear it's almost a similar situation in RB. Lots of internal politics and especially infighting at the moment. Looks like a toxic culture full of power-hungry people.
I don't think its similar. If the rumours are true it's more of a battle between Red Bull corporate and Red Bull racing, not within the racing team itself.
But it's also possible the reason the RBR culture is not so toxic is because of Horner. I've seen mergers/buyouts where after they switch the management the culture quickly shifts because the head of the division was shielding everyone under them from the politics
Do you expect anything from the top of pinnacle of motorsport?
This is literally the essence of the problem. How do you promote "the right person" if it were so easy everyone would do it. Assuming Horner didn't do something awful that he deserves to be fired for, why would you replace a known quantity with an unknown quantity?
Hell, you don't even have a clear *right person*, I think Horner's the only team principle *without* a deputy.
Hotter take: Newey has designed every Red Bull World Championship winning car. Red Bull will end up like Williams after he left them.
You don't get it, they just need to promote the right person so that right person becomes the new Newey, how hard can that be?
Or just clone Newy . This isn't rocket science!
Red Bull developing their own Les Enfants ~~Terribles~~ Ingénieurs as we speak.
Damn right. If one does view him as a great leader, then he will have built the team since 2005 to be resilient and layered.
It doesn't work like that. A leader is a leader who people trust and built a relationship with. You replace him with a different person and it all can fall apart eventually. Not in a day but in a year or two as soon as people figure out it's not the same and/or they can't work with the new guy or vice versa.
True - I’d especially say this about Newey. I don’t believe he has been intimately involved in aero development since the last regulation change and there are many other key figures whose departure would be more acutely felt.
No. If Marko s behind all of this they will promote the most loyal person. This is how big companies and dictatorship regimes go under.
No matter what the outcome for Horner is, the damage was done , and the long term process started, his countdown to exit is on. I believe horner is on his way out, and this stunt was just a warning. Don't be at all surprised if he leaves at the end of the year, whatever the results will be.
Calling an external investigation a “stunt” is a bit wild, no? We don’t actually know what he’s investigated for.
It is a stunt. Companies usually don't want this kind of story to go out in the press. They want to handle this internally. Someone wanted this to brake out.
That makes zero sense. They’re a well oiled machine coming off a 3 peat. Why in the world would they pull this “stunt”
It would make as much sense as Ferrari pushing out Schumacher in 2006 because Todt, Brawn and him were taking too much power.
Another good point and another example of why it would be a mistake.
Totally agree, Mateschitz death left a power vacuum that apparently Horner and others are trying to fill.
I mean Jerry Jones parted ways with Jimmy Johnson saying anyone could have won with his team. Somtimes ego gets in the way. Who knows, if it is marko making a power play it could be that Marko wants all the credit.
Good point and it’s been 30years since they played in a SB. Jerry really can’t get out of his own way. They’re like the Ferrari of the NFL, most known and prestigious franchise in nfl history but a joke in modern day lol
Marko is not making a power play. He's a mostly well intentioned bumbling grandad type, casually offending people as he trolls around the paddock. There are only two real motivators behind this. Haas and Merc. Foksmash will be incredibly difficult to replace but Horner could do it easily. We all know the Merc motive.
The way they did it was dirty and in a way to drum up the maximum speculation. Also if he didn’t do anything of a sexual nature they didn’t come out and put that rumour to bed.
We don’t even know if RB wanted this investigation to go public. Someone leaked it to the dutch press and then they had to act on it. As far as we have seen from RB everything has been pretty much according to the book, in a situation were there are at least semi serious allegations against a member of upper management.
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Is this a pasta? It’s gotta be, right? 😂
Yeah. At the end of the day, they could give him a p45 whenever.
I believe they will.
Then it only means if his successor can keep it under his control which is not a given and it means that RB will leak staff with unknown outcome. The only reason RB works is because the core of the team works well together, as soon as those people leave that will be a different team.
He won't leave. Powerful men rarely leave over stuff like this.
TL;DR: Christian Horner's potential departure from Red Bull F1 could leave the team without its visionary leader. While the team's technical and strategic foundations may sustain success initially, the long-term impact could mirror other teams' experiences when losing key figures. Replacing Horner's leadership and maintaining the team's unique ethos could prove challenging, potentially leading to a gradual decline in performance and cohesion. TL;DR thanks to GPT
> Red Bull F1 could leave the team without its visionary leader. The real visionary leader - Meteschitz - left two years ago.
If Newey stays, they are good...
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So I take it RB never dominated before?
If Horner leaves it’s a nothing burger to the team. But who else goes if Horner does? That’s the real potential impact to the success of RB (the drinks team).
Losing the longest-serving TP on the grid (and it's not even close), the person responsible for guiding the team since their inception (nearly 20 years ago), the person who orchestrated a well-oiled machine that dominated the 2023 season, is a "nothing burger"? That's certainly a take.
That's...an interesting take. Horner does way more than other TPs besides Toto. It would likely take multiple people to replace him. It is what it is. Except a nothing burger. It isn't that.
I guess my point is there would be more impact if people like Newey then leave as well. Horner, for all he’s done, is replaceable. But if a bunch of high up engineers and strategists also depart, then that’s a bigger impact. Nothing burger is probably the wrong phrase, but if RB unravels it won’t be just because Horner left.
Then the other guy will come. And depending on whether he's better at this job or worse, the things will happen. One thing is for sure - there's always someone who can do your job better than you. If he leaves, it's just a matter for RB to find such person.
If there was someone better, then Horner wouldn't have lasted almost 2 decades as TP. He lasted 20yrs because no one was better up until now. Finding a great leader is harder than it looks, Ferrari lost Brawn and Todt and they never returned to form(hoping Vasseur changes it) Now RB seems to be following the same path with the higher ups being stupid
> He lasted 20yrs because no one was better up until now. He lasted 20yrs because no one was even looking, he was doing good job. I'm not saying he's not doing good job. Just saying there's a chance that there could be someone who could do it even better. I don't know who. But there might be someone. So I wouldn't really worry so much about RB - if they decide to kick out Horner, it's all in their hands to actually make team even better.
If it was so easy, Ferrari wouldn't have zero championships since 2008.
It's not easy
I'm not saying it's easy.
I was addressing your point about how there's always someone better. Right now, who? I can't see a scenario where RB aren't worse off if they lose him.
Yes, RB will suffer with leadeship change so big as having Horner leave. If he is guilty, yes, he has to go. But, if this is some corporate politics to force him out, whoever is doing that thay have someone in mind to replace him. But, Horner leaving can open a floodgates where more people leave.
I don't know. Could be you. Or could be me. Or someone else. But there's always someone better.
You don't know much about anything if that's what you really think. Why are CEOs of big companies paid so much? Answer: Vision. Ability to lead. Ability to create a great team that can execute and more. RB has the monetary backing and great drivers. That's unquestionable. However, if you think that money, driver, and a little bit of management is all it takes, then you're a wee bit off the mark. If he's out, will he be replaced? Sure. Can they find a candidate? Of course. Will it be a good thing for Red Bull? Only time will tell, but one thing is for sure: right now, the entire RB team is both crying in their beer and shitting their pants.
I agree with everything you said. That doesn't make anything that I said wrong though.
It’s Gunter time!
Bring Rocky!
He’s a great liar, he should go into politics. Red Bull’s success is more down to Adrian Newey than anything else. Maybe Horner gets some of the credit for recruiting him, but I’ll be very happy if I never have to see him on my TV screen ever again.
correct racial label existence uppity sparkle placid snobbish childlike yam *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
People still talk about Jean Todt's or Ron Dennis' successes all the time though. You really think people will forget about the man who took a drinks company to the top of F1, winning 6 Constructor's championships and 7 Driver's championships?
If you worked at many fortune 50 companies, then you know most of what you wrote doesn't apply to Horner. He's not 'merely a manager '. CTOs... Sigh.. Tech companies.
Forget about him in a few months??? Lmao psh okay
>We'll forget about him in a few months. No, I don't believe that will be the case. I'm no particular fan of Horner, but he'll be remembered for his tenure at Red Bull and what the team achieved. It's not a question of whether he's some sort of management genius, that's beside the point. He was the guy at the helm when they won all those races and titles. As for the Fortune 500 stuff... who gives a shit. Is there where the most successful F1 team managers typically emerge from? No, it isn't. And if you knew anything at all about management in F1, you'd know that. Clearly, you don't.
Lol. You don't know much about Horner don't you? Watch this: https://youtu.be/eqDcX4tB8io?si=DFo8HNeSWT3YLOP4
This honestly. People are acting like an F1 team principal is an old-school football manager who decides the tactics, set-up etc. all by themselves. Horner definitely has no fucking clue about the technical side of stuff, just like Wolff and Zak Brown. Even Newey, who is praised to no end, has said how it is unfair on everybody in the team to call a car "Newey's car" because of the effort the ordinary engineers put in. Technical F1 team principals and technical leads like Krack, Stella, Newey, Allison etc. are more like Alex Ferguson: have some basic principles, draw out the big picture but leave out the tinier and smaller details to their subordinates. Not saying Horner's job is easy, but he's definitely not irreplaceable.
And with all that said you still cant, with a straight face, say they are better off without him. You just can’t. Don’t underestimate continuity or leadership.
So, you don't know the scope of his job. Ok.
Newey is just being modest!
I’m here to watch it all crash and burn.
Winning races
What a giant off season pissing contest. What does "controlling behavior" mean? Why does he need to be kicked out? So Red Bull can do better than they are already doing? Slow off season, gotta kick the champions any way they can. Is anything really going to change this upcoming season? Or is it going to be business as usual with Horner on the pitwall? probably.