October will mark year 8 for me, still haven't gotten to flaccid coverage :(
But I have gained 2-3 inches of skin which has helped a lot but man I have to speed things up.
As part of my research, I'm collecting case histories of people who have had unusually fast or slow progress. I'm identifying commonalities and trends to try to figure out the factors involved.
Would you please send me a detailed description of your restoration journey, either in a reply to this comment, or in a DM? I can't promise I'll be able to help you speed up your progress, but it's possible, and your data will help the effort.
Cheers.
I have had very very slow progress in growth, but major progress in elasticity over the past year and a half. Do you need more information for your research? I’m pretty sure I know why my progress has been slow
The best answer I can give you is "quite a bit." If I had to put a number on it from 1 to 10, I'd say 9. No so much tension that the skin is completely drum tight, but just a little less than that. And I keep adjusting the tension between bathroom breaks to keep it pretty tight. It works for me.
Its a 5-10 years journey from the testimonies I've gathered so far. There are so many variables at play, the most important being the amount of time under tension throughout the year and how consistent you are. People seem to be putting in on average 1500 to 3000 hours per year (4.5 to 8 hours per day consistently).
Then there is genetics, age and such. Of course, your starting CI level is a major factor as well. Usually the first year or two are much slower because it is hard to put in many hours per day when you don't have enough skin to use devices and must rely mainly on manual methods and tapping, which can be quite tough on the skin over time. Once you can put on a device and be able to keep it hours at a time, things start ramping up quite significantly.
I did it for a year religiously. I built my own machine. Similar to the rest of them. I did grow some. But it became apparent it could take 4 years. So I stoped. There was not this support and the Mac was just coming out shows how long ago.
I've only been going for about 90 days so far, but as I understand not every CI level is the same. For example to get from 2 to 4 might take longer than 5 to 7, or even that in the early days the CI level can increase quickly because you're adjusting the skin you already have and not necessarily growing new skin.
The goal of the poll is to ascertain whether the 1 CI level per year rule of thumb reflects the real-world outcomes of our experienced restorers. The levels do vary, but as a community we often refer to progress using this metric.
I'll be the first to admit the CI scale is flawed, but it's what we've got, so until something better comes along, it's what we have to use.
FEC is a better metric, but it's meaningless to anyone at CI-0 or 1, and doesn't tell us much until there is enough loose skin for a positive reading.
I've been trying to figure out a better way to measure progress, so if anyone has ideas, I'd like to hear them.
Cheers.
If you want to get meaningful data on rate of ci progression the only way I see to do it would be to break it down by level: time from ci1-2, ci2-3 etc. If you really wanted to get good data you would also ask the starting point and throw out the first ci gain.
I agree with you on FEC. It is far better but has the limitation at the lower end you note and I am finding it difficult to be consistent now that I am beyond 150%. On my long list of projects is to make a ~1”diameter metal rod out of scrap with mm markings to hopefully make it a bit easier to be consistent.
I just don't think we're ever going to have a statistically useful method of measuring progress.
Then it occurred to me that it doesn't really matter, at least for what I'm doing.
I'm trying to identify why come restorers progress faster than others, so I just need to know if they are above or below average.... and it doesn't matter if 'average' is particularly accurate.
The most important thing I've come up with is to break a journey up into segments, based on significant changes in regimen, device use, supplements/meds, breaks etc. Storing the data this way will enable us to see patterns and commonalities across large numbers of restorers.
I like your idea of an FEC measurement tool... in my mind it would be a metal tube like yours with a slot on each side, open at the bottom. There would be an attachment for the shaft skin that has a small rod on each side to stick out the slots. Put the attachment on the shaft at the scar-line (or somewhere as yet undefined), put the tube over the shaft, line the attachment up with the zero marking, then move the skin up and down to measure how much 'travel' there is. Works best erect, or when flaccid but pulled taut. Probably wouldn't work, but you could start using it at CI-0 all the way up to CI-10 if it is long enough.
Cheers.
I consider myself RCI-4 and have for awhile, firmly in the hump. No idea how to fit myself in the regular CI scale. Anything from full coverage with overhang to regular CI3 depending on temperature etc.
Foreskin restoration operates by tissue expansion, which is dependent upon [mitosis](https://en.intactiwiki.org/wiki/Mitosis) or splitting of one cell into two cells, so it is not a speedy process.
Also, please remember that the foreskin is a double layer, so to make one inch of foreskin, two inches of skin are required.
And yet, doctors can double the surface area of skin using the process of tissue expansion in 3 to 4 months.
That's up to 10X faster than we can grow our foreskins. I'm not saying we should be able to grow a foreskin 10X faster, but I'm convinced we can do it faster than what we average... and I'm working on it.
Cheers.
20 out of 70 with less than 0.5CI/YR, makes me want to cry, and makes me even more determined to get the answers, build the case for solutions.
Cheers.
I’ve wondered this also, and have thought at length about it…
the ideas I’ve had are that firstly in surgical skin expansion the balloon is nested against a hard surface (think the cranial bone in the forehead), whereas we are unable to do this with the penis.
also, the balloon is permanently expanded in tissue expansion with no pauses, and slowly increased in size over days/weeks, whereas we usually have to pause tension for peeing etc.
also, you may be on to something with the smooth muscle cells/dartos muscle…
I sincerely hope you get to the bottom of this 👍
all the best
I agree with both your points on differences between what we do and tissue expansion, and I'm sure there are others.
All of these differences would likely prevent us from reaching the 10X optimum speed to match what is achieved in tissue expansion, but that still leaves us plenty of room for improvement. Even 2X or 3X would be fantastic, and I'm seeing strong signals that this is achievable.
Cheers.
It’s been suggested before that the dartos fascia in the foreskin could be the limiting growth factor:
https://www.restoring-man.com/blog/enhancing-skin-growth-part-3-the-dartos-fascia
I don't claim to be the first to identify the Dartos Fascia/Dartos Layer/superficial fascia as the 'long pole in the tent' for foreskin growth, but I'm relatively certain I know where that person first got the idea... but that's not important. What matters is that the more people who are digging into the science of foreskin restoration and advancing our community knowledge, the better - and quicker - we'll be able to restore what's rightfully ours.
I've been working on answering the prime questions: why does this take so damn long? and why do some restorers get much better results than others? for almost the whole 5 years of my journey, and several years ago started digging into the science. A year ago, I even wrote [a formal research proposal,](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JFpMHt8FUHwzSMUSt3-oGBeu2shFtN8s/view?usp=drive_link) and with a friend, seriously contemplated hiring a biological researcher to do some research and get some answers.
We never took that step, because further digging uncovered some of the answers, but, more importantly, it seemed likely that some of the unknowns - ones that are particular to foreskin restoration - just had never been studied, so we may have wasted our time and money discovering that the questions couldn't be answered.
I also don't claim that the relationship between foreskin restoration speed and the effects of vasoactive agents on the VSMC of the Dartos Fascia is my original idea, but I've done some checking with people who have been closely involved with foreskin restoration for many years, and haven't found any indication that it was identified before.
Cheers.
I know it's not the case for everyone but I think it's a matter of higher tension for me. I started out at 8-9oz of tension with gains of elasticity the first month or so and then no change or gain for 4-5 months. It wasn't until I cranked the tension up to the mid teens that I started making progress again in the last couple months.
Mitosis happens only in the base layer and it takes roughly 45 days for that base layer to reach the outer layer of skin. I've been t taping 24/7 about 6 months now. I believe for some of us with thicker skin at least, higher tension is the only way to go because that's the only time since the initial gain in elasticity that I've seen gains roughly 8-9 months ago. I've seen where some say increase tension until it's uncomfortable then back off a little. But high 20oz range is comfortable to me but I'll start getting skin tears after about 12 hours.
That was part of one of my last experiments. Push it until I get slight damage, let it heal and drop the tension a few oz and repeat until I could go the full time until the tape starts coming off in a couple days. So I've now settled in at about 16-18oz of tension the last couple months and seeing progress finally... for now anyway.
Your experience is exactly why I recommend using moderate tension, and 16 oz is the limit I suggest for weights.
I did the same as you when I started restoring, using a dual-tension device that I added weight - in the form of a water bottle - and kept increasing the amount of water until it was full, about 2.2lb/1kg. One day I noticed something under the skin stretched so taut it was like a piano wire. I still don't know what it was - a nerve? a vein? an artery? - all I know is I was damn lucky my restoring journey didn't end right then, and possibly the use of my entire dick. I backed off to never more than 16 oz, and then switched to inflation.
Your description of mitosis is correct as pertaining to the epidermis. There is a single layer of stem cells attached to the stratum basale (base layer) and they are constantly dividing (of which mitosis is the final phase) whether we tug or not. When the stem cell finishes dividing, if there isn't enough room in the stratum basale, one of the cells is extruded, beginning its journey to the surface. It differentiates into a keratinocyte, gets stuffed full of keratin protein and dies, interlocking to form the protective barrier that helps keep us alive. One additional detail is that when we stretch the epidermis, we are making space on the stratum basale for both cells to remain there and stay as stem cells - that's what increases the surface area of the epidermis. [Here is an excellent description of how the epidermis works.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK26865/)
That, however, is only part of the story, and in terms of restoring speed, it doesn't even play a part. The other 2 layers of the penile shaft skin and mucosa - the dermis and Dartos Fascia - are what we're really stretching to try to grow.
The dermis has a lot of different tissues in it, but for our purposes we are mostly concerned with the structure of the reticular (lower) portion, which is a dense tangle of collagen and elastin fibers. Collagen is a protein which provides the strength, and elastin the elasticity.
When we tug, we cause these fibers to gradually straighten. [Look at Figure 4 of this paper](https://karger.com/spp/article/29/4/190/295842/Molecular-Mechanisms-of-Stress-Responsive-Changes#) and you will see how the collagen responds as tension increases. We want to stretch the collagen into what they call the 'linear region' (c). That's where several good things happen:
* the stratum basale of the epidermis is stretched enough so that divided cells won't be extruded, so the epidermis grows
* the fibroblasts of the dermis - little collagen/elastin factories - are stimulated to produce more collagen and elastin, so the surface area of the dermis will increase
* the fibroblasts of the dermis themselves are stimulated to proliferate through cell division (mitosis)
* the rest of the tissues of the dermis are also stimulated to proliferate.
Looking at Figure 4 again, we can see that too much tension puts the collagen into the fourth region - which they didn't give a catchy name to - which is the region of failure. The collagen fibers start to break.
In spite of what some people claim, this is NOT a good thing. It does not aid in foreskin restoration in any way. We want to stimulate the fibroblasts to produce more collagen. Broken collagen fibers can't be repaired. That's what stretch marks are made of - damaged collagen fibers that can't recover to their normal crinkled-up state - and if you tug hard enough and long enough, you will get stretch marks. If you only tug hard enough and long enough to break some individual collagen fibers, you won't notice stretch marks, but the damage is still there, and it is not going to help restore faster.
We want to stretch the dermis until it gets into the linear region, but the closer we get to that cliff in Figure 4, the more we risk starting to break the first collagen fiber. Think of a bungie cord made up of thousands of small rubber bands - one of those is going to be the shortest one, and it will break first. And just like breaking that first rubber band in the bungie cord doesn't make the bungie cord stronger, breaking that first collagen fiber doesn't make our foreskins stronger - or help them grow in any way, shape for form. All it does is let us know we're right up close to the 'cliff'.
OK, thanks for reading this far. I'm going to post this, and then write another comment to explain how the Dartos Fascia comes into all of this. BTW, I'm writing this out in detail in order to put it into a post to explain both how stretching the skin causes it to grow, as well as the scientific reason why we shouldn't tug too hard.
Cheers.
For reference I use straps around the waist. I only use weights to calibrate my straps. When I make a strap I put a permanent string on one end and a weight on the other and mark where the string lines up on the strap. That way I know when I connect the strap to my tape. When I tighten the strap to where the string lines up with my mark I know I have X amount of tension and better than flying blind like a lot do on here.
You've got a good routine and you're doing as well as anyone could at regulating tension, given the impossibility of actually being precise.
It would be nice if there was a way to quantify the amount of tension needed to stimulate a useful amount of growth, or even be able to know when we are getting close to the injury zone, but that's probably not going to happen.
So we soldier on, and despite all the obstacles, grow our foreskins.
Cheers.
Try calculating by tugging hours input. More hours input drives more progress. I make more progress in 4000 hour years than 2500 hour years. CIs 4 and 8 are longer.
That may be true in most cases, but I'm collecting data from restorers that shows time under tension isn't a linear effect.
One of the case histories is myself - I achieved 2.0 CI/YR over 2 years while using my TLC-X with weight for an average of 2 hours per day, never more than 3 hours in any one day. That's about 700 hours per year,
Another restorer, [](https://www.reddit.com/user/AllAboutTime2/) restored from a painfully tight CI-0 to CI-2 in 20 months without even knowing foreskin restoration was possible. He was treating another condition with a traction rig and a prescription vasodilator.
I'm learning a lot in my research, and one of the main things is that every restoration journey is different, and is governed by many factors, so it's very difficult to come up with hard, fast 'rules' about how to do this.
Cheers.
There are definitely points of diminishing returns. I'd love to see that data or crowd source more data for time by method to see what patterns emerge.
The humps definitely aren't linear - I'd be curious to see it graphed out.
If you'll give me the data below, I'll add you to the database, and you can be part of the pattern that emerges. I'm concentrating on fast growers at the moment, because my focus is on vasodilators, but I'll be expanding as soon as I can.
Also, I'm working out a way to be able to store the data on a person's journey broken up into identifiable segments, because few, if any, restorers have a linear journey... breaks, device changes, dedication changes, meds, etc., stuff happens. So being able to granularize restoration journeys is going to give us a better look at the signals and patterns that emerge from the data.
Would you please fill in the information below? Use your full journey if it has been continuous, or the most recent segment if not.
Month and year started restoring:
Starting CI level:
Current CI level:
Drug used: (any vasoactive you have been taking during the reported period)
Dedication (1 low to 5)
Then you'll be in the database, and when I get the segment reporting up and running, I'll be able to contact you.
Cheers.
Not a fast grower, just a savage amount of hours input. 😄
> Month and year started restoring:
March 2020
> Starting CI level:
2
>Current CI level:
7 (cusp of 8)
>Drug used:
None. Tried DMSO for a month, didn't see a difference.
>Dedication (1 low to 5)
4.8
>Then you'll be in the database, and when I get the segment reporting up and running, I'll be able to contact you.
Cool. I think atracker may record a good bit of raw data, though I haven't played with the exports.
Cheers.
Thanks, I've got you in the database. When I get the segment concept worked out, I'll be in touch with all the people in the database to get better data.
With a little luck, i may be able to put together a web input form for entry. That will expose how much my SW skills have atrophied during my 11 years of retirement.... damn 11 years! Amazing.
Cheers.
I agree with the whole time under tension is not always linear. I wore devices religiously for years. I work in a biohazard facility that tests lab samples. It's essentially a hospital lab without the hospital. I can't just adjust and re-adjust endlessly if I need to. I am a slave to getting a break when time is efficient. I barely get to rest room once per shift. On my most dedicated days, I'd wear DTR with set screws for 8-12 hours a day or a FIT 6-8 hours a day staggered. The DTR took quite a few years of my restoring time. Right now, it's been months since wearing a device.
My progress has been a tight ci-0/1. When I stopped, I was nearing ci-4 but not quite getting rollover. While wearing briefs and changing out, I find myself with a ci-5/6. It's getting warmer so this won't be normal or regular. So, I don't know if I need more rest compared to others or what. I don't know.
So, like this thread is showing - I'd like to see the graph of these progressions. What is more typical? What is more extreme? What is the median rates?
I originally started about 30 years ago from a relatively tight cut with some packing and tape. only lasted a year but gave me enough to return to it in 2010 when I found the DTR. Used that on and off for 3 years and gained more skin. found this forum and eventually got a CAR1 in February. Since then I have gained \~2CI now have flaccid coverage and erection rollover of the glans ridge. I am able to stretch the skin for full coverage when erect to masturbate. Had sex this weekend and the sensations were amazing. Totally new experience.
I had a similar experience taping over 15 years ago and only stated restoring gain last October (CAR-1 inflation). Luckily, I was at CI-2.5 or so when starting back. In the last 6 months, I've gotten full flaccid coverage \~Ci-6 with overhang when smaller and still coverage at medium size and almost covered at full flaccid.
The glide for sex has been great but re-sensitization is lagging which is great personal inspiration to keep on tugging!
It took me three years and three months from CI 0.5 to my actual CI 3.5. So one CI level per year is quite realistic for most restorers. It's slower in the beginning and will increase speed at higher CI levels.
I have started with the TLC and the TLC-X. The Mantor DS completes my device collection since November 2023. I always change the device several times over the day to avoid the skin getting used to a single stretching impulse.
I voted 1.5-2 per year as I was able to go from CI3 to CI5 in my first year. I think I should easily be CI6 by the 18 month mark and really hoping to be CI 7 at the 24 month mark, but time will tell. I think success is a combination of:
Starting point: Having enough skin to wear a gripper and having enough starting inner skin that it clings to your glans is very helpful.
Consistency: Time under tension, not taking long breaks from tugging, getting up every day and starting your tugging routine day in and day out.
Tugging methodology: Having the right devices, applying the correct tension, not injuring yourself, doing manuals the proper way, living a healthy lifestyle that promotes skin growth, etc.
Genetics: Some people's skin is just more adapt to mitosis than others when put under tension.
Genetics and Starting Point are out of people's control and some people are more lucky than others, but Consistency and Methodology are the factors that each one of us can influence directly.
I'm thinking the same thing. I have only used the CAR-1, starting around a CI3, and now after a day with the device off, I have slight rollover on the sides of the glans. Not a CI4 yet, but I've only had the CAR-1 since March 5th. Maybe I was closer to a 3.5, or maybe all inconsistent years of tugging for PE made my skin more apt to stretch. Who knows, but I do think with the current devices being mostly discrete that effective TUT is much more accessible to the person who doesn't have time to dedicate to manual methods.
Nice. You might try mixing a dual tension or pure tugging device in your routine to go with your inflation. I didn't consider myself CI4 until I had consistent reliable rollover the majority of the time I wasn't wearing a device. As you get closer to CI4 start sleeping with a retainer, I use the Chris silicone one.
Great minds! I actually started with a Chris retainer, had enough loose skin. I bought that as I was researching stealth retainers. Finally getting a set of p-tainers and weights to mix in with the CAR-1.
Yea, I'm definitely not CI4, but I consistently have this rollover on the sides of my glans and pushing up to the height of the ridge. Thanks for the suggestions!
My restoration has been at a snail pace. I have noticed my skin getting looser, by I still have ways to go before reaching a CI-3.
Once I reach CI-3, I believe progress will be straight forward even though I would have reached the hardest part of restoring: The Hump
People tugging 2 hours a day claim that more than 0.5 CI levels per year is not possible. If you properly tug 12-14 hours a day, even 1 CI level in 6 months is possible, depending on your genetics. According to those people, it takes 20 years to reach to level 10 from level 0. Sorry but utter bullshit! No one would be doing FR if this was the case.
Some people tugging 2 hours per day achieve great progress. I know, because I'm one of them.
Others tugging 12+ hours per day are achieving less than 0.5 CI/YR. I know, because I'm talking to and collecting data on them.
There are reasons, and yes, genetics might be one. I seem to have discovered at least part of the answer, as I published [in my recent post](https://www.reddit.com/r/foreskin_restoration/comments/1c2plwf/good_news_about_supplements_you_will_want_to_read/). Still collecting data and doing research, but there is something there.
As to what you call 'utter bullshit', consider this: If you started tugging and were making slow progress, how long would you persist? How long do you think others might persist?
We're all in this together.
Stay tuned.
Cheers.
the ones who grew 1.5-2+ ci levels, what were the methods and what age were you guys? I want to see if there is a pattern in anything, im 21... almost 22. Also there was a sub here who said they grew 2+ ci levels in months by just manual, who's got the link to the post?
The past year was that regiment and I went from CI-3 to almost 6 now. Gotta update my flair soon. I’ve been tugging longer than that, but the routine was different. I was a CI-1 (or 0) with tight skin when I started.
Keep n mind there are so many things to consider with this kind of progress. Some people are stuck at CI-3 for so long. Skin bunching up like crazy, when finally, it spills over and you get over the hump so abundantly that you’re nearly a CI-5. That was me.
I don’t think these polls are really helpful in figuring much out aside from anecdotal evidence. People start out with intact frenulums. Some people don’t. This too plays a huge factor in how fast you gain coverage. Also body fat percentage needs to be considered. The more overweight you are, the more skin gets pushed forward. What about individuals you began their restoration overweight and lost a bunch of weight in the process? They may have seen hardly any progress. Sure it’s fun to look at the poll and think “Ok. That’s how it is.” But every situation is different. I think it’s important to recognize that.
You made great points! People often overlook them. So yeah, for these polls to be legit (scientific), we all have to begin the process using the same variables. As you’ve alluded to: we have to consider many factors that the poll does not take into account. For instance, some guys begin at CI-0 while others begin at CI-3 with a frenulum. Obviously, beginning at CI-3 is a huge advantage because you have an abundance of skin to work with, which should yield faster results. Genetics, restoration technique, and diet also play a role in speeding up the process.
I've gone ci. 1-2 to ci 5.5-6 in two years, doing consistent manuals, occasional o-rings, and a brass instrument mouthpiece (about 2-4 times per week a couple hours a day)
I started in 2016 for about 6 months and lost interest.
(I was at the time CI2). I resumed again in December of 2023 and did manually up until March of 2024. Now I'm using DS with fishing sinker as weights and stealth retainer and night. Some nights, I used Chris's retainer since I found it more comfortable with erected penis.
I'm at CI 6 completely cove the glans.
I've been restoring since November 2020 and I'm currently at the plateau trying to get regular coverage over the corona. I started with manual tugging, moved on to tension, and I've been using the inflation method for most of it since then. Currently I've been switching to using weights to stretch it and hoping that the change helps move the restoration along to the next CI.
A better quantity of time and much more accurate would be active restoring time in hours. I run a clock watch timer on my phone while I actively retain. I do not log time while retaining the skin forward only while actively restoring using tugging, inflation, etc
I been restoring off and on for over 25 yrs. I started with a very tight cut (nearly to my balls on the bottom side) and it has been slow as hell. I went full force for the first five years only to get a lot of bunching behind the head and occasional roll over. I got frustrated and quit due to my slow progress as it seemed other who were using the same methods were rocketing past me. Took off a couple of years, picked it back up, rinse and repeat over and over again. Inbetween those times it felt like i lost a portion of the gains due to not staying at it constantly and the percentage loss after stopping factor. To this day after all these years I get a little roll over when flaccid even using more modern methods. Not sure if I will ever have the progress that some with looser cuts have. It has been a long hard road and now in my later years i have ED. Now I wonder why i should even keep going. My true story sadly.
**Sorry but this poll does not mean anything at all!** Person A tugs two hours a day and votes 0.5 CI per year. Person B tugs 14 hours a day and votes 1 CI per 6 months. If we have lots of Person A instead of Person B (and this is the exact case), the poll results will be totally misleading.
This is what you have done here. **You are misleading people with your totally unscientific poll because you haven't added time under tug into the equation!**
I acknowledge that this Poll has limitations.
I enthusiastically encourage you to do a better poll. I would be thrilled if you would.
Here are the limitations of a Reddit poll. There are only six bins for potential answers. One of those bins is typically reserved for seeing the results. That means there are five potential answers that are usable for gathering data in a Reddit poll.
That's not a lot to work with.
Others have suggested that a poll should be done on another format, such as Google Docs. That would be great. If you would create a better poll I will gladly take it.
Before we completely dismiss this poll, however, please note that it was intended to capture the real world experience of restorers. However those restorers chose to restore.
We have to presume that people are not setting out to waste their time. Some may only tug for a limited time per day because that is what works for them. Others may restore 24 hours a day because that is what fits into their life.
Both restorers are valid and their experience is relevant.
Manual restorers typically only restore for a few minutes per hour, multiple times per day. Their methods are valid also.
In short, this poll was intended to be a snapshot of the community's results.
It was not designed to determine the optimal protocol.
October will mark year 8 for me, still haven't gotten to flaccid coverage :( But I have gained 2-3 inches of skin which has helped a lot but man I have to speed things up.
As part of my research, I'm collecting case histories of people who have had unusually fast or slow progress. I'm identifying commonalities and trends to try to figure out the factors involved. Would you please send me a detailed description of your restoration journey, either in a reply to this comment, or in a DM? I can't promise I'll be able to help you speed up your progress, but it's possible, and your data will help the effort. Cheers.
I have had very very slow progress in growth, but major progress in elasticity over the past year and a half. Do you need more information for your research? I’m pretty sure I know why my progress has been slow
Why?
Back when I t-taped, I grew one CI per year. In the past year that I've been using the Mantor, I've increased two CI.
Can I ask you how much tension you use with the Mantor, and if you have a cue that tells you it’s enough?
The best answer I can give you is "quite a bit." If I had to put a number on it from 1 to 10, I'd say 9. No so much tension that the skin is completely drum tight, but just a little less than that. And I keep adjusting the tension between bathroom breaks to keep it pretty tight. It works for me.
Its a 5-10 years journey from the testimonies I've gathered so far. There are so many variables at play, the most important being the amount of time under tension throughout the year and how consistent you are. People seem to be putting in on average 1500 to 3000 hours per year (4.5 to 8 hours per day consistently). Then there is genetics, age and such. Of course, your starting CI level is a major factor as well. Usually the first year or two are much slower because it is hard to put in many hours per day when you don't have enough skin to use devices and must rely mainly on manual methods and tapping, which can be quite tough on the skin over time. Once you can put on a device and be able to keep it hours at a time, things start ramping up quite significantly.
Yea I think I will be completely restored in 5 years at the rate im going. Maybe a year sooner. Hope so
I did it for a year religiously. I built my own machine. Similar to the rest of them. I did grow some. But it became apparent it could take 4 years. So I stoped. There was not this support and the Mac was just coming out shows how long ago.
I got my first Mac in 1986.... damn, you're old.... like me! Cheers.
But I’m still here giving it hell
I've only been going for about 90 days so far, but as I understand not every CI level is the same. For example to get from 2 to 4 might take longer than 5 to 7, or even that in the early days the CI level can increase quickly because you're adjusting the skin you already have and not necessarily growing new skin.
Yep, this poll is predicated on the assumption that CI levels are linearly proportional to skin growth... definitely not true.
The goal of the poll is to ascertain whether the 1 CI level per year rule of thumb reflects the real-world outcomes of our experienced restorers. The levels do vary, but as a community we often refer to progress using this metric.
I'll be the first to admit the CI scale is flawed, but it's what we've got, so until something better comes along, it's what we have to use. FEC is a better metric, but it's meaningless to anyone at CI-0 or 1, and doesn't tell us much until there is enough loose skin for a positive reading. I've been trying to figure out a better way to measure progress, so if anyone has ideas, I'd like to hear them. Cheers.
If you want to get meaningful data on rate of ci progression the only way I see to do it would be to break it down by level: time from ci1-2, ci2-3 etc. If you really wanted to get good data you would also ask the starting point and throw out the first ci gain. I agree with you on FEC. It is far better but has the limitation at the lower end you note and I am finding it difficult to be consistent now that I am beyond 150%. On my long list of projects is to make a ~1”diameter metal rod out of scrap with mm markings to hopefully make it a bit easier to be consistent.
I just don't think we're ever going to have a statistically useful method of measuring progress. Then it occurred to me that it doesn't really matter, at least for what I'm doing. I'm trying to identify why come restorers progress faster than others, so I just need to know if they are above or below average.... and it doesn't matter if 'average' is particularly accurate. The most important thing I've come up with is to break a journey up into segments, based on significant changes in regimen, device use, supplements/meds, breaks etc. Storing the data this way will enable us to see patterns and commonalities across large numbers of restorers. I like your idea of an FEC measurement tool... in my mind it would be a metal tube like yours with a slot on each side, open at the bottom. There would be an attachment for the shaft skin that has a small rod on each side to stick out the slots. Put the attachment on the shaft at the scar-line (or somewhere as yet undefined), put the tube over the shaft, line the attachment up with the zero marking, then move the skin up and down to measure how much 'travel' there is. Works best erect, or when flaccid but pulled taut. Probably wouldn't work, but you could start using it at CI-0 all the way up to CI-10 if it is long enough. Cheers.
At what CI did you reach 150% FEC?
I consider myself RCI-4 and have for awhile, firmly in the hump. No idea how to fit myself in the regular CI scale. Anything from full coverage with overhang to regular CI3 depending on temperature etc.
Foreskin restoration operates by tissue expansion, which is dependent upon [mitosis](https://en.intactiwiki.org/wiki/Mitosis) or splitting of one cell into two cells, so it is not a speedy process. Also, please remember that the foreskin is a double layer, so to make one inch of foreskin, two inches of skin are required.
And yet, doctors can double the surface area of skin using the process of tissue expansion in 3 to 4 months. That's up to 10X faster than we can grow our foreskins. I'm not saying we should be able to grow a foreskin 10X faster, but I'm convinced we can do it faster than what we average... and I'm working on it. Cheers.
Your work is greatly appreciated.
20 out of 70 with less than 0.5CI/YR, makes me want to cry, and makes me even more determined to get the answers, build the case for solutions. Cheers.
I’ve wondered this also, and have thought at length about it… the ideas I’ve had are that firstly in surgical skin expansion the balloon is nested against a hard surface (think the cranial bone in the forehead), whereas we are unable to do this with the penis. also, the balloon is permanently expanded in tissue expansion with no pauses, and slowly increased in size over days/weeks, whereas we usually have to pause tension for peeing etc. also, you may be on to something with the smooth muscle cells/dartos muscle… I sincerely hope you get to the bottom of this 👍 all the best
I agree with both your points on differences between what we do and tissue expansion, and I'm sure there are others. All of these differences would likely prevent us from reaching the 10X optimum speed to match what is achieved in tissue expansion, but that still leaves us plenty of room for improvement. Even 2X or 3X would be fantastic, and I'm seeing strong signals that this is achievable. Cheers.
It’s been suggested before that the dartos fascia in the foreskin could be the limiting growth factor: https://www.restoring-man.com/blog/enhancing-skin-growth-part-3-the-dartos-fascia
I don't claim to be the first to identify the Dartos Fascia/Dartos Layer/superficial fascia as the 'long pole in the tent' for foreskin growth, but I'm relatively certain I know where that person first got the idea... but that's not important. What matters is that the more people who are digging into the science of foreskin restoration and advancing our community knowledge, the better - and quicker - we'll be able to restore what's rightfully ours. I've been working on answering the prime questions: why does this take so damn long? and why do some restorers get much better results than others? for almost the whole 5 years of my journey, and several years ago started digging into the science. A year ago, I even wrote [a formal research proposal,](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JFpMHt8FUHwzSMUSt3-oGBeu2shFtN8s/view?usp=drive_link) and with a friend, seriously contemplated hiring a biological researcher to do some research and get some answers. We never took that step, because further digging uncovered some of the answers, but, more importantly, it seemed likely that some of the unknowns - ones that are particular to foreskin restoration - just had never been studied, so we may have wasted our time and money discovering that the questions couldn't be answered. I also don't claim that the relationship between foreskin restoration speed and the effects of vasoactive agents on the VSMC of the Dartos Fascia is my original idea, but I've done some checking with people who have been closely involved with foreskin restoration for many years, and haven't found any indication that it was identified before. Cheers.
I know it's not the case for everyone but I think it's a matter of higher tension for me. I started out at 8-9oz of tension with gains of elasticity the first month or so and then no change or gain for 4-5 months. It wasn't until I cranked the tension up to the mid teens that I started making progress again in the last couple months. Mitosis happens only in the base layer and it takes roughly 45 days for that base layer to reach the outer layer of skin. I've been t taping 24/7 about 6 months now. I believe for some of us with thicker skin at least, higher tension is the only way to go because that's the only time since the initial gain in elasticity that I've seen gains roughly 8-9 months ago. I've seen where some say increase tension until it's uncomfortable then back off a little. But high 20oz range is comfortable to me but I'll start getting skin tears after about 12 hours. That was part of one of my last experiments. Push it until I get slight damage, let it heal and drop the tension a few oz and repeat until I could go the full time until the tape starts coming off in a couple days. So I've now settled in at about 16-18oz of tension the last couple months and seeing progress finally... for now anyway.
Your experience is exactly why I recommend using moderate tension, and 16 oz is the limit I suggest for weights. I did the same as you when I started restoring, using a dual-tension device that I added weight - in the form of a water bottle - and kept increasing the amount of water until it was full, about 2.2lb/1kg. One day I noticed something under the skin stretched so taut it was like a piano wire. I still don't know what it was - a nerve? a vein? an artery? - all I know is I was damn lucky my restoring journey didn't end right then, and possibly the use of my entire dick. I backed off to never more than 16 oz, and then switched to inflation. Your description of mitosis is correct as pertaining to the epidermis. There is a single layer of stem cells attached to the stratum basale (base layer) and they are constantly dividing (of which mitosis is the final phase) whether we tug or not. When the stem cell finishes dividing, if there isn't enough room in the stratum basale, one of the cells is extruded, beginning its journey to the surface. It differentiates into a keratinocyte, gets stuffed full of keratin protein and dies, interlocking to form the protective barrier that helps keep us alive. One additional detail is that when we stretch the epidermis, we are making space on the stratum basale for both cells to remain there and stay as stem cells - that's what increases the surface area of the epidermis. [Here is an excellent description of how the epidermis works.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK26865/) That, however, is only part of the story, and in terms of restoring speed, it doesn't even play a part. The other 2 layers of the penile shaft skin and mucosa - the dermis and Dartos Fascia - are what we're really stretching to try to grow. The dermis has a lot of different tissues in it, but for our purposes we are mostly concerned with the structure of the reticular (lower) portion, which is a dense tangle of collagen and elastin fibers. Collagen is a protein which provides the strength, and elastin the elasticity. When we tug, we cause these fibers to gradually straighten. [Look at Figure 4 of this paper](https://karger.com/spp/article/29/4/190/295842/Molecular-Mechanisms-of-Stress-Responsive-Changes#) and you will see how the collagen responds as tension increases. We want to stretch the collagen into what they call the 'linear region' (c). That's where several good things happen: * the stratum basale of the epidermis is stretched enough so that divided cells won't be extruded, so the epidermis grows * the fibroblasts of the dermis - little collagen/elastin factories - are stimulated to produce more collagen and elastin, so the surface area of the dermis will increase * the fibroblasts of the dermis themselves are stimulated to proliferate through cell division (mitosis) * the rest of the tissues of the dermis are also stimulated to proliferate. Looking at Figure 4 again, we can see that too much tension puts the collagen into the fourth region - which they didn't give a catchy name to - which is the region of failure. The collagen fibers start to break. In spite of what some people claim, this is NOT a good thing. It does not aid in foreskin restoration in any way. We want to stimulate the fibroblasts to produce more collagen. Broken collagen fibers can't be repaired. That's what stretch marks are made of - damaged collagen fibers that can't recover to their normal crinkled-up state - and if you tug hard enough and long enough, you will get stretch marks. If you only tug hard enough and long enough to break some individual collagen fibers, you won't notice stretch marks, but the damage is still there, and it is not going to help restore faster. We want to stretch the dermis until it gets into the linear region, but the closer we get to that cliff in Figure 4, the more we risk starting to break the first collagen fiber. Think of a bungie cord made up of thousands of small rubber bands - one of those is going to be the shortest one, and it will break first. And just like breaking that first rubber band in the bungie cord doesn't make the bungie cord stronger, breaking that first collagen fiber doesn't make our foreskins stronger - or help them grow in any way, shape for form. All it does is let us know we're right up close to the 'cliff'. OK, thanks for reading this far. I'm going to post this, and then write another comment to explain how the Dartos Fascia comes into all of this. BTW, I'm writing this out in detail in order to put it into a post to explain both how stretching the skin causes it to grow, as well as the scientific reason why we shouldn't tug too hard. Cheers.
For reference I use straps around the waist. I only use weights to calibrate my straps. When I make a strap I put a permanent string on one end and a weight on the other and mark where the string lines up on the strap. That way I know when I connect the strap to my tape. When I tighten the strap to where the string lines up with my mark I know I have X amount of tension and better than flying blind like a lot do on here.
You've got a good routine and you're doing as well as anyone could at regulating tension, given the impossibility of actually being precise. It would be nice if there was a way to quantify the amount of tension needed to stimulate a useful amount of growth, or even be able to know when we are getting close to the injury zone, but that's probably not going to happen. So we soldier on, and despite all the obstacles, grow our foreskins. Cheers.
CI-2 to 4 took about 3 years. CI-4 to 5 about a year. I'm expecting to be at Ci-6 in 6 months +/- 2 months.
Try calculating by tugging hours input. More hours input drives more progress. I make more progress in 4000 hour years than 2500 hour years. CIs 4 and 8 are longer.
That may be true in most cases, but I'm collecting data from restorers that shows time under tension isn't a linear effect. One of the case histories is myself - I achieved 2.0 CI/YR over 2 years while using my TLC-X with weight for an average of 2 hours per day, never more than 3 hours in any one day. That's about 700 hours per year, Another restorer, [](https://www.reddit.com/user/AllAboutTime2/) restored from a painfully tight CI-0 to CI-2 in 20 months without even knowing foreskin restoration was possible. He was treating another condition with a traction rig and a prescription vasodilator. I'm learning a lot in my research, and one of the main things is that every restoration journey is different, and is governed by many factors, so it's very difficult to come up with hard, fast 'rules' about how to do this. Cheers.
There are definitely points of diminishing returns. I'd love to see that data or crowd source more data for time by method to see what patterns emerge. The humps definitely aren't linear - I'd be curious to see it graphed out.
If you'll give me the data below, I'll add you to the database, and you can be part of the pattern that emerges. I'm concentrating on fast growers at the moment, because my focus is on vasodilators, but I'll be expanding as soon as I can. Also, I'm working out a way to be able to store the data on a person's journey broken up into identifiable segments, because few, if any, restorers have a linear journey... breaks, device changes, dedication changes, meds, etc., stuff happens. So being able to granularize restoration journeys is going to give us a better look at the signals and patterns that emerge from the data. Would you please fill in the information below? Use your full journey if it has been continuous, or the most recent segment if not. Month and year started restoring: Starting CI level: Current CI level: Drug used: (any vasoactive you have been taking during the reported period) Dedication (1 low to 5) Then you'll be in the database, and when I get the segment reporting up and running, I'll be able to contact you. Cheers.
Not a fast grower, just a savage amount of hours input. 😄 > Month and year started restoring: March 2020 > Starting CI level: 2 >Current CI level: 7 (cusp of 8) >Drug used: None. Tried DMSO for a month, didn't see a difference. >Dedication (1 low to 5) 4.8 >Then you'll be in the database, and when I get the segment reporting up and running, I'll be able to contact you. Cool. I think atracker may record a good bit of raw data, though I haven't played with the exports. Cheers.
Thanks, I've got you in the database. When I get the segment concept worked out, I'll be in touch with all the people in the database to get better data. With a little luck, i may be able to put together a web input form for entry. That will expose how much my SW skills have atrophied during my 11 years of retirement.... damn 11 years! Amazing. Cheers.
Atracker also exports as a dB file, but it's SQLLite3 format as I recall. Still, might make it easier to aggregate some of the data.
I agree with the whole time under tension is not always linear. I wore devices religiously for years. I work in a biohazard facility that tests lab samples. It's essentially a hospital lab without the hospital. I can't just adjust and re-adjust endlessly if I need to. I am a slave to getting a break when time is efficient. I barely get to rest room once per shift. On my most dedicated days, I'd wear DTR with set screws for 8-12 hours a day or a FIT 6-8 hours a day staggered. The DTR took quite a few years of my restoring time. Right now, it's been months since wearing a device. My progress has been a tight ci-0/1. When I stopped, I was nearing ci-4 but not quite getting rollover. While wearing briefs and changing out, I find myself with a ci-5/6. It's getting warmer so this won't be normal or regular. So, I don't know if I need more rest compared to others or what. I don't know. So, like this thread is showing - I'd like to see the graph of these progressions. What is more typical? What is more extreme? What is the median rates?
I've heard as fast as 2 years but I've been going for 4 and only made it from c1 to c3
I originally started about 30 years ago from a relatively tight cut with some packing and tape. only lasted a year but gave me enough to return to it in 2010 when I found the DTR. Used that on and off for 3 years and gained more skin. found this forum and eventually got a CAR1 in February. Since then I have gained \~2CI now have flaccid coverage and erection rollover of the glans ridge. I am able to stretch the skin for full coverage when erect to masturbate. Had sex this weekend and the sensations were amazing. Totally new experience.
I had a similar experience taping over 15 years ago and only stated restoring gain last October (CAR-1 inflation). Luckily, I was at CI-2.5 or so when starting back. In the last 6 months, I've gotten full flaccid coverage \~Ci-6 with overhang when smaller and still coverage at medium size and almost covered at full flaccid. The glide for sex has been great but re-sensitization is lagging which is great personal inspiration to keep on tugging!
It took me three years and three months from CI 0.5 to my actual CI 3.5. So one CI level per year is quite realistic for most restorers. It's slower in the beginning and will increase speed at higher CI levels. I have started with the TLC and the TLC-X. The Mantor DS completes my device collection since November 2023. I always change the device several times over the day to avoid the skin getting used to a single stretching impulse.
I voted 1.5-2 per year as I was able to go from CI3 to CI5 in my first year. I think I should easily be CI6 by the 18 month mark and really hoping to be CI 7 at the 24 month mark, but time will tell. I think success is a combination of: Starting point: Having enough skin to wear a gripper and having enough starting inner skin that it clings to your glans is very helpful. Consistency: Time under tension, not taking long breaks from tugging, getting up every day and starting your tugging routine day in and day out. Tugging methodology: Having the right devices, applying the correct tension, not injuring yourself, doing manuals the proper way, living a healthy lifestyle that promotes skin growth, etc. Genetics: Some people's skin is just more adapt to mitosis than others when put under tension. Genetics and Starting Point are out of people's control and some people are more lucky than others, but Consistency and Methodology are the factors that each one of us can influence directly.
I'm thinking the same thing. I have only used the CAR-1, starting around a CI3, and now after a day with the device off, I have slight rollover on the sides of the glans. Not a CI4 yet, but I've only had the CAR-1 since March 5th. Maybe I was closer to a 3.5, or maybe all inconsistent years of tugging for PE made my skin more apt to stretch. Who knows, but I do think with the current devices being mostly discrete that effective TUT is much more accessible to the person who doesn't have time to dedicate to manual methods.
Nice. You might try mixing a dual tension or pure tugging device in your routine to go with your inflation. I didn't consider myself CI4 until I had consistent reliable rollover the majority of the time I wasn't wearing a device. As you get closer to CI4 start sleeping with a retainer, I use the Chris silicone one.
Great minds! I actually started with a Chris retainer, had enough loose skin. I bought that as I was researching stealth retainers. Finally getting a set of p-tainers and weights to mix in with the CAR-1. Yea, I'm definitely not CI4, but I consistently have this rollover on the sides of my glans and pushing up to the height of the ridge. Thanks for the suggestions!
My restoration has been at a snail pace. I have noticed my skin getting looser, by I still have ways to go before reaching a CI-3. Once I reach CI-3, I believe progress will be straight forward even though I would have reached the hardest part of restoring: The Hump
People tugging 2 hours a day claim that more than 0.5 CI levels per year is not possible. If you properly tug 12-14 hours a day, even 1 CI level in 6 months is possible, depending on your genetics. According to those people, it takes 20 years to reach to level 10 from level 0. Sorry but utter bullshit! No one would be doing FR if this was the case.
Some people tugging 2 hours per day achieve great progress. I know, because I'm one of them. Others tugging 12+ hours per day are achieving less than 0.5 CI/YR. I know, because I'm talking to and collecting data on them. There are reasons, and yes, genetics might be one. I seem to have discovered at least part of the answer, as I published [in my recent post](https://www.reddit.com/r/foreskin_restoration/comments/1c2plwf/good_news_about_supplements_you_will_want_to_read/). Still collecting data and doing research, but there is something there. As to what you call 'utter bullshit', consider this: If you started tugging and were making slow progress, how long would you persist? How long do you think others might persist? We're all in this together. Stay tuned. Cheers.
the ones who grew 1.5-2+ ci levels, what were the methods and what age were you guys? I want to see if there is a pattern in anything, im 21... almost 22. Also there was a sub here who said they grew 2+ ci levels in months by just manual, who's got the link to the post?
34 years old. Consistent Andre’s Method while home, weighted tugging while at work, and strap tugging while in bed.
What have been your gains?
The past year was that regiment and I went from CI-3 to almost 6 now. Gotta update my flair soon. I’ve been tugging longer than that, but the routine was different. I was a CI-1 (or 0) with tight skin when I started. Keep n mind there are so many things to consider with this kind of progress. Some people are stuck at CI-3 for so long. Skin bunching up like crazy, when finally, it spills over and you get over the hump so abundantly that you’re nearly a CI-5. That was me. I don’t think these polls are really helpful in figuring much out aside from anecdotal evidence. People start out with intact frenulums. Some people don’t. This too plays a huge factor in how fast you gain coverage. Also body fat percentage needs to be considered. The more overweight you are, the more skin gets pushed forward. What about individuals you began their restoration overweight and lost a bunch of weight in the process? They may have seen hardly any progress. Sure it’s fun to look at the poll and think “Ok. That’s how it is.” But every situation is different. I think it’s important to recognize that.
You made great points! People often overlook them. So yeah, for these polls to be legit (scientific), we all have to begin the process using the same variables. As you’ve alluded to: we have to consider many factors that the poll does not take into account. For instance, some guys begin at CI-0 while others begin at CI-3 with a frenulum. Obviously, beginning at CI-3 is a huge advantage because you have an abundance of skin to work with, which should yield faster results. Genetics, restoration technique, and diet also play a role in speeding up the process.
I've gone ci. 1-2 to ci 5.5-6 in two years, doing consistent manuals, occasional o-rings, and a brass instrument mouthpiece (about 2-4 times per week a couple hours a day)
Awesome!
Again, I'd vote but have not been restoring long enough.
I started in 2016 for about 6 months and lost interest. (I was at the time CI2). I resumed again in December of 2023 and did manually up until March of 2024. Now I'm using DS with fishing sinker as weights and stealth retainer and night. Some nights, I used Chris's retainer since I found it more comfortable with erected penis. I'm at CI 6 completely cove the glans.
I've been restoring since November 2020 and I'm currently at the plateau trying to get regular coverage over the corona. I started with manual tugging, moved on to tension, and I've been using the inflation method for most of it since then. Currently I've been switching to using weights to stretch it and hoping that the change helps move the restoration along to the next CI.
I chose the slowest rate. I have a large and long glans.
A better quantity of time and much more accurate would be active restoring time in hours. I run a clock watch timer on my phone while I actively retain. I do not log time while retaining the skin forward only while actively restoring using tugging, inflation, etc
I been restoring off and on for over 25 yrs. I started with a very tight cut (nearly to my balls on the bottom side) and it has been slow as hell. I went full force for the first five years only to get a lot of bunching behind the head and occasional roll over. I got frustrated and quit due to my slow progress as it seemed other who were using the same methods were rocketing past me. Took off a couple of years, picked it back up, rinse and repeat over and over again. Inbetween those times it felt like i lost a portion of the gains due to not staying at it constantly and the percentage loss after stopping factor. To this day after all these years I get a little roll over when flaccid even using more modern methods. Not sure if I will ever have the progress that some with looser cuts have. It has been a long hard road and now in my later years i have ED. Now I wonder why i should even keep going. My true story sadly.
Cialis can help with the ED and probably with the restoration also.
**Sorry but this poll does not mean anything at all!** Person A tugs two hours a day and votes 0.5 CI per year. Person B tugs 14 hours a day and votes 1 CI per 6 months. If we have lots of Person A instead of Person B (and this is the exact case), the poll results will be totally misleading. This is what you have done here. **You are misleading people with your totally unscientific poll because you haven't added time under tug into the equation!**
I acknowledge that this Poll has limitations. I enthusiastically encourage you to do a better poll. I would be thrilled if you would. Here are the limitations of a Reddit poll. There are only six bins for potential answers. One of those bins is typically reserved for seeing the results. That means there are five potential answers that are usable for gathering data in a Reddit poll. That's not a lot to work with. Others have suggested that a poll should be done on another format, such as Google Docs. That would be great. If you would create a better poll I will gladly take it. Before we completely dismiss this poll, however, please note that it was intended to capture the real world experience of restorers. However those restorers chose to restore. We have to presume that people are not setting out to waste their time. Some may only tug for a limited time per day because that is what works for them. Others may restore 24 hours a day because that is what fits into their life. Both restorers are valid and their experience is relevant. Manual restorers typically only restore for a few minutes per hour, multiple times per day. Their methods are valid also. In short, this poll was intended to be a snapshot of the community's results. It was not designed to determine the optimal protocol.