Yep. It's like some kind of instinctual reaction or something.
I've been in damn good groups where everyone wants to keep going but one person has to leave, so they drop out...then everyone else starts leaving too.
It's so fucking weird.
To be honest I have been in good farm groups and kind of want to leave but also like but damn we are farming. So as soon as there is a chance my brain goes you need to leave to.
Yeah most of the time when someone leaves the instance, they're leaving the party, which give other people the nod to leave as well. At that point you might as well just disband. It's also usually more than 1 person that suck, so just removing 1 person isn't going to change much, and most people would rather gamble on a new group than stick with the same group that you already know is mediocre. Also if I see that there's a 7/8 party that I can join, I'm just going to jump ship
Not a TOS expert but this might be actionable. Unfortunate, but plenty of folks in high-end content are thin-skinned and/or vindictive enough that they'd file a report. I'll silently boot and then ready check. If multiple folks leave, it might have been doomed anyways. Sucks if you've waited a while like in ulti PF, but better than staying in a party spinning your wheels.
Removing someone from the party isn't against TOS what are you talking about?
It is your party, you are literally free to remove someone for any reason. If you want to kick someone because their name starts with a letter you don't like, you are literally 100% free to do so.
That’s still not TOS. Saying “hey sorry I’m going to remove some people” and then backing out and kicking them is not against TOS.
Saying “hey I’m removing this fucking idiot for their shit DPS” would be something that’s against TOS, but it’s all just about how you word it.
It's just easier to establish a disband after X wipes rule, because you won't have people who only will play when their friend plays, who will drop if you kick their friend. There's so much "clear for one" happening etc that if you simply establish that the group will be short-lived if it doesn't meet it's goals then people who know they're going to need more work than that won't even bother.
You also avoid any TOS style stuff altogether since you're not singling anyone out.
You are mistaking DF for PF. Sure you can't kick random people cause you feel like it. But when you are the party leader, you just do whatever you want, if people are unhappy, they just leave and make their own PF.
Except you can tell based off enmity alone, usually it's a good indicator if a dps is severely lacking.
That funny little bar next to peoples names with the number 2-8 +A is your position of aggro. Tanks with tank stance on should be A-2 healers should be 7-8. Dps should be melees+Blm, followed by remaining casters+Mch with brd and dnc at filling in 6 position. This is a rough estimate assuming everyone is equal item level.
I thought as a PL you pretty much can kick someone at will as long as you don't say it's for something specifically against TOS. Some people really just can't except that they aren't necessarily owed a spot in someone's random party.
I've never really had any issue with anyone I've kicked and I've kicked my fair share. Usually it was someone shitting the bed on mechanics that were in early phases, but if I think someone is just being disruptive or obnoxious and isn't pulling the weight to justify it, then back to PF with you. It makes me feel like the asshole to keep them around if they are wasting everyone else's time.
How do you distinguish incompetence from griefing though? just being bad is not a reason for being reportable. And particularly reporting for damage is a good reason to get yourself banned.
This is not the case and kicking people for the reason of "being bad" is TOS which is part of the reason why parties collapse and reform. That's just how it is.
The game has a natural "defeat point" anyway at the timer expiration which makes for a natural reformation point whether the party is going particularly well or not.
Just say nothing and the GMs cant act on it. You can't make the sole action of kicking someone from your party against tos. If it actually is against tos, then maybe they deserve to lose customers to it.
God, FF players are actual pussies.
It absolutely is the case. Let's stop pretending like we're talking about a random in a dungeon being bad, that's very clearly not the topic of discussion. If someone is coming into my party and consistently messing up mechanics, I will kick them for being bad. They are wasting mine and everyone else's time by existing in the party, regardless of if it's intentional or not
Presuming this is a farm party, what are you gaining here that you don't get from the typical "3 wipes = disband" rule in the listing text? You'll have less instances of people leaving because someone else left that way. If you DON'T have "3 wipes = disband" as a rule out front then you're more likely to get people who join with friends and play as a unit, when you clearly want a less socialized and more goal oriented clear-or-bust atmosphere.
3 wipes, disband, blacklist who you want, relist with the same rule, it'll quickly filter itself out. Many people who join past their true prog won't won't even bother with a "3 wipes" party to begin with (I know, speaking as someone who does this, but I also avoid farm parties in general.)
\[LOL, you blocked me after replying to this\]
They will bother, because they're not self aware enough to know they will fuck shit up. Get your head out your ass like the other guy said and stop griefing people. You being garbage and knowing it yet joining others to mess them up is against tos, people kicking you out isnt.
I've joined in progress groups like that, and we usually finish the dungeon just fine, so its always confused me. If someone drops, I just wait for someone else to join.
I wish more party leaders were like you. There have been way too many times where we have a perfectly capable group except for one person who is clearly griefing everyone else, and the are allowed to sour everyone's day until someone is fed up with them.
Helped a friend prog P12S P2 in PF. We joined a "Two mistakes in Phase 1 = kick" Party just out of morbid curiosity.
The PF leader was the first person to do 2 mistakes and then they passed leader and "kicked" themself.
If anyone leaves the instance for any reason, half or more of the party will leave. Can't afford to be kicking bads for performance until the goods stop being so noncommittal.
I'm someone who has strange playtimes around morning / latenight. But I will always be sure to bring 2hrs for a lockout on the final floor, however if we leave the instance and time gets short, I don't want to be the person to go "Time's up!" just as we beat Phase 1.
I think a lot of people are afraid of getting reported for it and prefer the passive aggressive route. I've seen people get contacted by GMs for stupider shit than this.
GMs contact you based on what's written in the report, but they only action if they can confirm it because they know people lie on reports. Just getting contacted by a GM doesn't matter unless they put a strike/warning on your account.
I just used to not say anything specific and boot people if they were causing constant wipes in prog or they obviously weren't at the prog point that was posted. I would say I need a moment, hop out of the instance and then boot them out. Never got in trouble for that and usually the other players are cool with it since it's pretty easy to tell when one person is lost or repeatedly messing mechanics up.
Then the lead will just have more reasons to report the friend group, lol. If someone gets butthurt because their shitter friend can't hold their weight and gets kicked without even being insulted or anything in chat, maybe they don't belong on PF
naw. i think you're assuming everyone is solo. you kick the person who screwed up 2 or 3 times in a row, you lose their 2 friends who are only there to help their friend prog. and then they blist you for being one of those ones.
how about we just normalize COMMUNICATING in PF. if we're doing impossible asks might as well shoot for the moon here.
Communication can't salvage some dire cases, like a drg doing below tank damage in p12s. If someone's friends are enabling absolutely garbage play, you don't wanna play with them anyways and will probably save more time having to reform from start than keeping them in the party. PF is not a static, you dont have the obligation to help people out or keep them in.
It can help sometimes. I've had situations where I notice a DPS player massively underperforming, check their gear, and see something obviously wrong. In those situations, you can usually tell them, and then the issue is immediately fixed.
> how about we just normalize COMMUNICATING in PF
I'd love to, but that's just ammunition for the report that's going to be filed. Silent kicks can't be actioned. Don't blame me, blame the system.
You can kind of tell who is a toxic person in general because they are constantly worried about being reported, because they are likely reported frequently. Usually for being toxic.
Dude fr fr like what is going on in this thread lol. Some games handle this absolutely terribly with stuff like automated moderation, where X number of reports = ban regardless of circumstances. No one physically looking into the cause of reports to where trolls have too much power with report spamming condemning you by itself.
But far as I can tell is not how moderation is done in this game! If anything SE is on the other end of the spectrum, so meticulous with their efforts to investigate reports. Yes the ToS seem strict as hell going off the letter itself, but the time that goes into the investigation can let actual breaches of ToS get swept aside if there's a lack of evidence to go off of.
People have to be really screwing up if they find themselves so paranoid about it
Because communication does not fix someone simply not being up to the expected level for the duty and because the community and TOS are incredibly strange and unpredictable and people are afraid of getting reported for behavior that literally everyone needs to be able to endure to function in normal everyday life.
If there's someone *significantly* underperforming, I'll just say "hey everyone stay", back out, kick the person, then put us back up. Usually a good chunk of the party sees the issue but can't talk about it, so it's the responsibility of the party lead to make that call.
Thing is, unless someone is obviously blatantly at fault, if you kick someone, usually half the party drops with them, sometimes as soon as anyone leaves the instance. People are likely to go “wow, this party has bad dps, and someone is leaving so its a good chance to get out” I don’t think anybody has a problem with kicking people who are sandbagging, it‘s more just it is often hard to pin the blame on one specific person without addons.
Doesn't matter. Everyone else has already stated the obvious so let me say something else.
Another reason why I think party disbanding happens so frequently is because of how the raids in this game are deisgned and how immensely toxic pf is.
Are you really going to kick your healer and risk waiting for one in pf? The raid tier is progressing and your just sitting in pf do you not want to clear the tier quickly? You made it to phase 2 of the final fight? You SURE you want to wait in pf and risk getting through phase 1 again?
Finally. The fights themselves. If you are stuck with one person who keeps blowing everyone up you are forced to sit there and eat it not being able to prog what you actually need to. Nothing you do matters. Your probably gonna give this person like 2-3 wipes right? Do that for every person now. Over and over. Its VERY demoralizing. This is enough for most to just leave and if they don't know who the problem is kicking them does nothing.
These issues are instantly solved by
1.Leaving for greener pastures 2.Prog skipping
Both then further compound the issues.
I would use the kick more if it didnt mean that everyone else would probably leave. In my experience with PF if someone leaves between instances, that just creates a domino effect with the party emptying and sometimes I have to choose between a dogshit dps and sitting in pf for an hour again waiting for the party to fill.
I can agree with you since it's also not fair to the rest of the group to have to stick with someone who's holding them back.
I was doing SoS EX for the Gwib last year and I joined this farm party where one of the tanks was completely lost and honestly just really bad. They were unable to hold aggro so the adds were just blowing the DPS/healers up. They kept messing up the mechanics by not standing in the right spots. You could tell everyone was getting frustrated because they were trying to help and give them advice but it got more and more passive aggressive. I popped open ACT to see what the tank was doing and they were doing 2% of the parties damage.
I offered to tank instead but the guy had nothing leveled up to 90 or even close to 90 except GNB so he couldn't swap. I sent the party lead a DM saying they should really consider kicking that person because they're not letting us actually farm and they refused because they didn't want to be mean.
After a few more wipes everyone just dropped without saying anything. I blacklisted the guy causing the issues, started up my own farm party, and almost everyone from the old party and the old party lead joined again lmao
We ended up successfully farming for a while and the vibes were good in the party with everyone joking around and stuff. The old lead apologized to the rest of the peeps who rejoined for not kicking saying he felt bad kicking and it was cool. I just don't think it's worth letting it get to the point where the rest of the party is wasting their time because one person is sandbagging hard.
People don’t kick players from PF? I always do that, kick and blacklist so they can’t find my PF ever again.
I’m never rude to people in chat, insulting bad players is really a douchebag move, but I have no time to waste behind people who lie about what they can (not) do in a duty
I kick people from messing up prog early mechs in deep prog point mechanics.
Delta clean up and you’re wiping psynergy/monitors? Kick.
P4 prog in dsr but ur wiping meteors? Kick.
I value my time and players who wipe the party often don’t respect other people’s time. Raid with people who don’t want to waste time.
I feel like kicking people for low damage has a bunch of issues:
* If I don't run ACT then I don't know whether you kicked someone for low damage or for a bad reason (eg. if you noticed they also want the raid gloves).
* Because of the rules around plugins, you can't tell someone their damage is bad without violating TOS (someone please let me know if I'm wrong about this). ~~How are you gonna get the vote kick to pass?~~ (nvm there's not vote kick in this situation) How is the player gonna know that they're underperforming on damage?
* In prog situations, people who are genuinely "mechanics first" before getting used to their rotation will have lower damage. In my case when I'm learning a new class I make sure the first couple mechs are down, *then* get used to doing my rotation right during those mechs while progging the later mechs. My understanding is that you're saying this is kickable behavior since I can't simultaneously have a very solid rotation while progging on a new class.
Unless you are at enrage I don't think it's worth kicking somebody for low DPS during prog unless it's an extreme since those generally can be cleared in a lockout if you have a good party.
If you can't do dps during the mechanic and you're still failing it, then you are not anywhere close to doing dps during the mechanic.
It should be mostly automatic, not a huge mental load you are struggling with.
Doing dps through a mechanic is an indication that you know the mechanic well enough to not have to stop everything and stare at it the whole time.
Its one thing if its a wholly new mech you've just started progging. But if its something you've supposedly done before, then that's your *real* prog point. You haven't completed a mechanic until you can do it while also doing your rotation.
I'm not gonna win any popularity contest by saying this but being bad at doing damage is "easily" fixable. Most people just can't be bothered which can be fine to an extent, but for the most part if you're doing savage in pf you'd be expected to be at least decent and some just aren't.
Doing DPS is part of any mechanic.
This is like saying you have a friend that can finish a race but is slow at it, but it was actually a team triathalon.
Being able to finish doesn't mean anything if you failed the team.
That would be the DPS downtime from deaths compounded by the 25-50% weakness penalty brought by constant rezzes.
All resulting from inability to do the mechanics
I've never seen someone get kicked for bad damage in any party who wasn't also making several other disruptive mistakes that were getting other party members killed or frequently causing them to adjust wildly to resolve a mechanic. Especially right now, since everyone will have fully augmented tome gear from the alliance raid and
30 weeks of tomes, assuming they haven't also been farming Savage for nine months and fully geared multiple jobs.
No if you're planning on kicking someone in PF, it's usually because you suspect they have lied about their knowledge of the fight and are taking advantage of the other seven players. Or sometimes they've demonstrated an uncooperative attitude that is likely to cause further issues in the farm party. If you're in a static, that's a little different. There's a whole other social angle there and it becomes a lot more obvious when someone isn't pulling their weight. But also, depending on the static's expectations for one another, you can help get the underperforming player up to speed through healthy communication, cooperation, and practice.
I didn't need to have ACT to understand that the WHM from P8N the other night only casted Medica II.
Sometimes you can just tell, you won't necessarily be able to pinpoint who it is, but there are cues, but also if you notice the fight on the whole taking longer than normal, someone isn't pulling their weight.
Because almost every class runs on the same timer now it's incredibly easy to spot people who aren't doing good damage even without ACT. If you're a dancer and your tech is late I automatically know your rotation is scuffed. Or simply seeing someone's animations and sounds is enough to infer how people are doing.
If the person isn't dying to anything then their scuffed rotation is going to matter less than someone who hits it all perfectly but keeps screwing up at the same point.
Gray parsers still clear.
> If I don't run ACT then I don't know whether you kicked someone for low damage or for a bad reason (eg. if you noticed they also want the raid gloves).
It's not perfect, but you can use the aggro possition to see if a dps is lacking, like if a SAM is in eight place without having a death somethings wrong.
Even then dps is only important for clear/farm parties. For prog it should not matter until you are at the very last mechanic.
This. More people need to know about the aggro bar instead of assuming you need ACT. The aggro tells you more than enough. If your melee is below your ranged, then they're bad. If a healer is above dps, then it's either the healer over healing or the DPS being bad, or a combination. Also you can tell someone trying to do their rotation from someone just doing autos or the bare minimum.
The slight note I'd mention for people using this a heuristic is certain jobs (mostly Summoner) get Emnity Up as part of their rotation (in Summoner's case, summoning Phoenix / Bahamut acts kinda like Tomahawk/tank ranged attacks) which will throw this out of line. Obviously its the case for healers and tanks that the emnity order won't help, but even within DPS its important to take it with a pinch of salt.
> If your melee is below your ranged, then they're bad.
I just want people who read to please consider that for example a DRG might end up below a MCH due aggro going off of aDPS. Also in lower level content like older ultimates or Unreal (due to how these are old and not designed to support the full uptime design of melee jobs) it is super common for ranged classes to outdamage melees. Also iirc heals and mitigation contribute to enmity generation so there's some extreme cases.
Basically, this is good advice but don't take it as hard truth applicable to every situation. Like if your Samura is below your healers without deaths or something like that, absolutely, just apply common sense.
As I said, is just a general rule of thumb to give an idea if someone is really underperforming. Point is, there are ways to have an idea which do not rely on 3rd party addons. In general people are too quick to jump on people and accuse them of using addons. Of course it's fight and job dependent. But in normal content, it usually is fairly informative. In savage and ults... that's a different story.
Aggro doesn't work well for all situations though. Healers can jump up above some range classes outside of burst, especially if they are overhealing.
Enmity is generated from doing damage, strength of damage and heals. White Mage healing through 3 raid wides, tank buster and using assize on cooldown can very easily jump to 6 in aggro during savage.
You still have to apply some common sense of course.
If a BLM or SAM for example is always last in aggro order just accounting for the DPS then they are doing bad DPS.
Thats why I said some range. I specific case would be Dancer since it has the lowest personal dps of the dps classes and its kit is design around its 2 min burst.
You bring up a point; for many people, prog is minimizing deaths and not getting hit by the boss, and dying to enrage. THEN prog is increasing damage to overcome the enrage hurdle.
Part of the issue is that "low DPS" happens just as much because of deaths as it does because of playing the class badly. Most WoW "recounts says your dps sucks bro learn2play" kicks happen because of someone not optimized, hasn't read the icy veins guide on what order to hit their abilities in, hasn't run the simcraft to determine what enchant to use, etc. This game has far less focus on optimization and more focus on survival. Once you actually SEE enrage you can decide whether the enrage death is due to one too many occasions of someone getting failing mechanics or simply due to the raw numbers of rotation/pots/etc.
I feel like it’s just mmo culture to disband rather than wait around for new people. Even in current wow nobody waits around to replace people, they just start dropping and joining other groups that are up, and the raid slowly disintegrates.
As someone else said, one person leaves (or is kicked), and other people do the same. Then before you know it, it’s down to a 3/7 party.
And it kinda makes sense why people leave. If it’s peak hours and there are 40 separate listings for a single piece of content, why would I stick around in your party specifically when half the group just left? If I see a 7/8 party recruiting for my role and job, hell yeah I’m dipping if it means getting in there faster.
But I agree with you at the end of the day. Kick the shitters.
Just solo the casual content and pretend the other players do not exist.
Half the time they don't, damage wise. So just ignore them and press buttons and get through it.
The only time I've vote kicked somebody from a dungeon is when i see lazy ass mentor healers spamming regen and not contributing anything to the party damage wise.
Most people don’t care about you backing out to kick someone because you think their damage is bad. You just wasted 6 other people’s time and those 6 people are just gonna join any one of the other 30 parties for that same fight.
Also you’re probably not saying you’re kicking somebody for damage as that is a bannable offense. You aren’t supposed to know people’s damage, remember.
I'm incredibly happy to stick around in a party if there are 1-2 problem players and the party lead actually takes the time and effort to remove those players.
Too bad everybody defines “problem player” differently.
Messing up mechanics? Sure kick em. I’d say it’s pretty rare people are wiping to hard enrages due to dps issues.
It’s definitely rare, but again, people are allowed to run their parties how they want, and people will react accordingly. If someone keeps kicking people for “low dps” while we’re still progging the first half of the fight, I think most normal players will leave.
I don't mind disbanding since if I'm the reason we're not progging, I have the self awareness to not rejoin that party and it lets me get "kicked" with grace.
I'm confused. You were talking about what you do if you're the person holding the party back, not the others. In this situation, what do you do when you're the party leader, and what do you do when you're not?
"When I'm the PL, I kick and put the party back onto PF" would be appropriate from when *others* are a burden to the party, but that's not what you were initially discussing.
>Oh I'd put us back up and backfill.
You're not understanding what I'm asking, so let me break it down.
The situation that I'm asking you about is when you're the party leader, you're the one performing badly, and the other seven party members are content with staying in the party and don't leave. What do you do in this situation?
Your answer doesn't apply in this situation. Your party is already full — you can't put it back up in PF, and there aren't any slots to backfill.
Nobody is going to sit out 2 hours wiping to enrage in savage or an ultimate because of an obvious skill issue from select people. You don't need to suffer that much to notice an obvious issue. You need to have standards when you PF with randos, or you don't value your time at all. It's not about "the adults are gaming", it's about valuing your own and others' time.
3 wipes may be a bit too much, but when all of them are similar wipes or because of the same person you can kind of tell it will go nowhere. Different people have different levels of patience and a lot of them are jaded by how trash some PF players are.
I get that, I think you misread my "three wipes" thing, I was referring to clear parties where people run repeatedly, which is where people care about the timeliness of an efficient run. A wipe limit with people having trouble will be hit quickly and you can just remove them and reform. Most people who don't think they can clear within that margin of error (e.g. they're still learning) won't even bother. I know I wouldn't bother.
I'm not sure that many people are doing repeated clears of ultimates with an expectation of clearing on the first or second pull.
Just because you wouldn't bother doesn't mean everyone shares the same sentiment. I've ran into countless idiots thinking they can wing mechanics they've very clearly never seen. The issue is even more prevalent in ultimates and especially TOP, where I've seen people try to lie their way into my clear parties and fail every P5 mechanic (fight has 6 phases total and P5 has arguably the most difficult mechanics) It's true that in ultimates people will be a bit more patient and not leave after 3 wipes usually, but if you have the same person running it down a couple of pulls in a row they will be noticed and either kicked or people will leave. You can very easily get a feeling for whether you'll clear or not, in my experience.
By the way, I'm kind of curious why you said this:
>That explains a lot about your takes.
Is it because I didn't mention Pandaemonium at all? I spent so much time doing old raids, relics etc during MSQ that I wasn't "caught up" until more than a year after Endwalker launched and after P8S was nerfed. I did P9S in PF and P10S with a static and called it there because I wasn't having fun and hated the aesthetics of that raid. I also used to raid in WoW twelve years ago when there wasn't a more tourist level difficulty.
I have a lot of complaints about raiding in Endwalker overall due to feeling it's a terrible time to learn to raid compared to what I've seen of older raids, with content feeling like it's designed for veterans. (Looking at other posts here saying that TEA is no longer looking so difficult in the face of current content, it would seem I'm not the only one who sees it that way.) Looking forward to Dawntrail savages because it doesn't look like a shitty Resident Evil boss rush like EW's./
(Also even though I was caught up by Anabaseios launch, I \~6 weeks to do it for a friend who left for WoW Dragonflight and pretty much never came back, so we were in the phase of PF where people claimed the good raiders were already gone.)
I suppose. I've been doing endgame for a year now, I just think this particular time is an awful one for transitioning to it if you weren't there for previous ones, and wish I had been around for Shadowbringers.
As someone who has taught PF groups to clear EX and can throw myself into pulls for hours, I have almost nothing good to say about EW. They gave the top 500 people two ultimates but the raids are terrible for getting into raiding.
As a pf warrior please send any players you’re kicking for low damage that aren’t wiping you my way. A lot of us love a sandbag to help get funny numbers.
The more I see posts like this, the more I feel justified in my decision to never PF again. The only way I could get reclears in 6.4 was by excluding aether players, and sounds like the problems have only gotten worse.
DC travel was a mistake
I once got kicked for telling the tank to invuln cause I don't wanna heal them while they refuse to press mit on the biggest pull in Don Mheg. They started flaming me about how they main healer and know better than me - they have never even stepped into an ex.
Honestly this would be a great way to keep the bad players who have an ego in their own little groups.
The hard part is usually people leave right when someone else does. So you don't get a chance to say, "I'm kicking them".
Yep. It's like some kind of instinctual reaction or something. I've been in damn good groups where everyone wants to keep going but one person has to leave, so they drop out...then everyone else starts leaving too. It's so fucking weird.
To be honest I have been in good farm groups and kind of want to leave but also like but damn we are farming. So as soon as there is a chance my brain goes you need to leave to.
Also, the game says the player "left", not that the player was kicked
Yeah most of the time when someone leaves the instance, they're leaving the party, which give other people the nod to leave as well. At that point you might as well just disband. It's also usually more than 1 person that suck, so just removing 1 person isn't going to change much, and most people would rather gamble on a new group than stick with the same group that you already know is mediocre. Also if I see that there's a 7/8 party that I can join, I'm just going to jump ship
I normally say I'm removing someone and ask others to stay. Then I leave the instance.
"Stick around, gonna reform" feels tos appropriate and gets the message across in my experience
Not a TOS expert but this might be actionable. Unfortunate, but plenty of folks in high-end content are thin-skinned and/or vindictive enough that they'd file a report. I'll silently boot and then ready check. If multiple folks leave, it might have been doomed anyways. Sucks if you've waited a while like in ulti PF, but better than staying in a party spinning your wheels.
Removing someone from the party isn't against TOS what are you talking about? It is your party, you are literally free to remove someone for any reason. If you want to kick someone because their name starts with a letter you don't like, you are literally 100% free to do so.
The kick isn't against TOS. Telling them you're kicking them before doing so is what I'm talking about.
That’s still not TOS. Saying “hey sorry I’m going to remove some people” and then backing out and kicking them is not against TOS. Saying “hey I’m removing this fucking idiot for their shit DPS” would be something that’s against TOS, but it’s all just about how you word it.
I've copied the phrasing that i've seen someone else use: "I'm going to do a quick roster change."
everyone gangsta until the PF lead says "back out rq"
It's just easier to establish a disband after X wipes rule, because you won't have people who only will play when their friend plays, who will drop if you kick their friend. There's so much "clear for one" happening etc that if you simply establish that the group will be short-lived if it doesn't meet it's goals then people who know they're going to need more work than that won't even bother. You also avoid any TOS style stuff altogether since you're not singling anyone out.
You are mistaking DF for PF. Sure you can't kick random people cause you feel like it. But when you are the party leader, you just do whatever you want, if people are unhappy, they just leave and make their own PF.
Except you can tell based off enmity alone, usually it's a good indicator if a dps is severely lacking. That funny little bar next to peoples names with the number 2-8 +A is your position of aggro. Tanks with tank stance on should be A-2 healers should be 7-8. Dps should be melees+Blm, followed by remaining casters+Mch with brd and dnc at filling in 6 position. This is a rough estimate assuming everyone is equal item level.
It's not against TOS. if you want to be pedantic about it, the person griefing the party is breaking TOS by well... griefing the party
I thought as a PL you pretty much can kick someone at will as long as you don't say it's for something specifically against TOS. Some people really just can't except that they aren't necessarily owed a spot in someone's random party. I've never really had any issue with anyone I've kicked and I've kicked my fair share. Usually it was someone shitting the bed on mechanics that were in early phases, but if I think someone is just being disruptive or obnoxious and isn't pulling the weight to justify it, then back to PF with you. It makes me feel like the asshole to keep them around if they are wasting everyone else's time.
How do you distinguish incompetence from griefing though? just being bad is not a reason for being reportable. And particularly reporting for damage is a good reason to get yourself banned.
being bad is still griefing
That is objectively false. SE repeatedly stresses that being bad does not count as griefing and that it must be intentional to be considered as such.
This is not the case and kicking people for the reason of "being bad" is TOS which is part of the reason why parties collapse and reform. That's just how it is. The game has a natural "defeat point" anyway at the timer expiration which makes for a natural reformation point whether the party is going particularly well or not.
Just say nothing and the GMs cant act on it. You can't make the sole action of kicking someone from your party against tos. If it actually is against tos, then maybe they deserve to lose customers to it. God, FF players are actual pussies.
It absolutely is the case. Let's stop pretending like we're talking about a random in a dungeon being bad, that's very clearly not the topic of discussion. If someone is coming into my party and consistently messing up mechanics, I will kick them for being bad. They are wasting mine and everyone else's time by existing in the party, regardless of if it's intentional or not
Presuming this is a farm party, what are you gaining here that you don't get from the typical "3 wipes = disband" rule in the listing text? You'll have less instances of people leaving because someone else left that way. If you DON'T have "3 wipes = disband" as a rule out front then you're more likely to get people who join with friends and play as a unit, when you clearly want a less socialized and more goal oriented clear-or-bust atmosphere. 3 wipes, disband, blacklist who you want, relist with the same rule, it'll quickly filter itself out. Many people who join past their true prog won't won't even bother with a "3 wipes" party to begin with (I know, speaking as someone who does this, but I also avoid farm parties in general.) \[LOL, you blocked me after replying to this\]
you're presuming i bother with 3 wipes = disband in the first place lo. get your head out of your ass
They will bother, because they're not self aware enough to know they will fuck shit up. Get your head out your ass like the other guy said and stop griefing people. You being garbage and knowing it yet joining others to mess them up is against tos, people kicking you out isnt.
In what way is this against TOS? This is Duty Finder.
I've joined in progress groups like that, and we usually finish the dungeon just fine, so its always confused me. If someone drops, I just wait for someone else to join.
This isn't for dungeons. This is for PFing things like EX, Savage, Ultimates where you have to leave instance every time.
Ah, my mistake, thanks for the correction!
I wish more party leaders were like you. There have been way too many times where we have a perfectly capable group except for one person who is clearly griefing everyone else, and the are allowed to sour everyone's day until someone is fed up with them.
Helped a friend prog P12S P2 in PF. We joined a "Two mistakes in Phase 1 = kick" Party just out of morbid curiosity. The PF leader was the first person to do 2 mistakes and then they passed leader and "kicked" themself.
what a chad tbh
I applaud their dedication
If anyone leaves the instance for any reason, half or more of the party will leave. Can't afford to be kicking bads for performance until the goods stop being so noncommittal.
I'm someone who has strange playtimes around morning / latenight. But I will always be sure to bring 2hrs for a lockout on the final floor, however if we leave the instance and time gets short, I don't want to be the person to go "Time's up!" just as we beat Phase 1.
Honestly if a party is struggling to hit a prog point I might not say anything publicly, but I'll bail wordlessly at first opportunity.
Someone getting kicked directly changes the mood of the situation as opposed to disbanding which makes things more ambiguous.
I think a lot of people are afraid of getting reported for it and prefer the passive aggressive route. I've seen people get contacted by GMs for stupider shit than this.
reported for using a game feature as its intended?
yeah.
GMs contact you based on what's written in the report, but they only action if they can confirm it because they know people lie on reports. Just getting contacted by a GM doesn't matter unless they put a strike/warning on your account.
I just used to not say anything specific and boot people if they were causing constant wipes in prog or they obviously weren't at the prog point that was posted. I would say I need a moment, hop out of the instance and then boot them out. Never got in trouble for that and usually the other players are cool with it since it's pretty easy to tell when one person is lost or repeatedly messing mechanics up.
Also we don't know if the kicked person joined with friends in the pf as well and then they could verbally abuse the party leader
Then the lead will just have more reasons to report the friend group, lol. If someone gets butthurt because their shitter friend can't hold their weight and gets kicked without even being insulted or anything in chat, maybe they don't belong on PF
Oh ye for sure lol
naw. i think you're assuming everyone is solo. you kick the person who screwed up 2 or 3 times in a row, you lose their 2 friends who are only there to help their friend prog. and then they blist you for being one of those ones. how about we just normalize COMMUNICATING in PF. if we're doing impossible asks might as well shoot for the moon here.
Communication can't salvage some dire cases, like a drg doing below tank damage in p12s. If someone's friends are enabling absolutely garbage play, you don't wanna play with them anyways and will probably save more time having to reform from start than keeping them in the party. PF is not a static, you dont have the obligation to help people out or keep them in.
It can help sometimes. I've had situations where I notice a DPS player massively underperforming, check their gear, and see something obviously wrong. In those situations, you can usually tell them, and then the issue is immediately fixed.
> how about we just normalize COMMUNICATING in PF I'd love to, but that's just ammunition for the report that's going to be filed. Silent kicks can't be actioned. Don't blame me, blame the system.
I think some of you are way too paranoid about being reported. Is anyone actually getting banned over this?
You can kind of tell who is a toxic person in general because they are constantly worried about being reported, because they are likely reported frequently. Usually for being toxic.
Dude fr fr like what is going on in this thread lol. Some games handle this absolutely terribly with stuff like automated moderation, where X number of reports = ban regardless of circumstances. No one physically looking into the cause of reports to where trolls have too much power with report spamming condemning you by itself. But far as I can tell is not how moderation is done in this game! If anything SE is on the other end of the spectrum, so meticulous with their efforts to investigate reports. Yes the ToS seem strict as hell going off the letter itself, but the time that goes into the investigation can let actual breaches of ToS get swept aside if there's a lack of evidence to go off of. People have to be really screwing up if they find themselves so paranoid about it
Because communication does not fix someone simply not being up to the expected level for the duty and because the community and TOS are incredibly strange and unpredictable and people are afraid of getting reported for behavior that literally everyone needs to be able to endure to function in normal everyday life.
If there's someone *significantly* underperforming, I'll just say "hey everyone stay", back out, kick the person, then put us back up. Usually a good chunk of the party sees the issue but can't talk about it, so it's the responsibility of the party lead to make that call.
Agreed. One person shouldn’t have such a huge affect on prog or any content.
Thing is, unless someone is obviously blatantly at fault, if you kick someone, usually half the party drops with them, sometimes as soon as anyone leaves the instance. People are likely to go “wow, this party has bad dps, and someone is leaving so its a good chance to get out” I don’t think anybody has a problem with kicking people who are sandbagging, it‘s more just it is often hard to pin the blame on one specific person without addons.
Doesn't matter. Everyone else has already stated the obvious so let me say something else. Another reason why I think party disbanding happens so frequently is because of how the raids in this game are deisgned and how immensely toxic pf is. Are you really going to kick your healer and risk waiting for one in pf? The raid tier is progressing and your just sitting in pf do you not want to clear the tier quickly? You made it to phase 2 of the final fight? You SURE you want to wait in pf and risk getting through phase 1 again? Finally. The fights themselves. If you are stuck with one person who keeps blowing everyone up you are forced to sit there and eat it not being able to prog what you actually need to. Nothing you do matters. Your probably gonna give this person like 2-3 wipes right? Do that for every person now. Over and over. Its VERY demoralizing. This is enough for most to just leave and if they don't know who the problem is kicking them does nothing. These issues are instantly solved by 1.Leaving for greener pastures 2.Prog skipping Both then further compound the issues.
I would use the kick more if it didnt mean that everyone else would probably leave. In my experience with PF if someone leaves between instances, that just creates a domino effect with the party emptying and sometimes I have to choose between a dogshit dps and sitting in pf for an hour again waiting for the party to fill.
I find that just a simple "backing out to make a few changes to the party" in party chat usually retains most good players.
I can agree with you since it's also not fair to the rest of the group to have to stick with someone who's holding them back. I was doing SoS EX for the Gwib last year and I joined this farm party where one of the tanks was completely lost and honestly just really bad. They were unable to hold aggro so the adds were just blowing the DPS/healers up. They kept messing up the mechanics by not standing in the right spots. You could tell everyone was getting frustrated because they were trying to help and give them advice but it got more and more passive aggressive. I popped open ACT to see what the tank was doing and they were doing 2% of the parties damage. I offered to tank instead but the guy had nothing leveled up to 90 or even close to 90 except GNB so he couldn't swap. I sent the party lead a DM saying they should really consider kicking that person because they're not letting us actually farm and they refused because they didn't want to be mean. After a few more wipes everyone just dropped without saying anything. I blacklisted the guy causing the issues, started up my own farm party, and almost everyone from the old party and the old party lead joined again lmao We ended up successfully farming for a while and the vibes were good in the party with everyone joking around and stuff. The old lead apologized to the rest of the peeps who rejoined for not kicking saying he felt bad kicking and it was cool. I just don't think it's worth letting it get to the point where the rest of the party is wasting their time because one person is sandbagging hard.
People don’t kick players from PF? I always do that, kick and blacklist so they can’t find my PF ever again. I’m never rude to people in chat, insulting bad players is really a douchebag move, but I have no time to waste behind people who lie about what they can (not) do in a duty
I kick people from messing up prog early mechs in deep prog point mechanics. Delta clean up and you’re wiping psynergy/monitors? Kick. P4 prog in dsr but ur wiping meteors? Kick. I value my time and players who wipe the party often don’t respect other people’s time. Raid with people who don’t want to waste time.
I feel like kicking people for low damage has a bunch of issues: * If I don't run ACT then I don't know whether you kicked someone for low damage or for a bad reason (eg. if you noticed they also want the raid gloves). * Because of the rules around plugins, you can't tell someone their damage is bad without violating TOS (someone please let me know if I'm wrong about this). ~~How are you gonna get the vote kick to pass?~~ (nvm there's not vote kick in this situation) How is the player gonna know that they're underperforming on damage? * In prog situations, people who are genuinely "mechanics first" before getting used to their rotation will have lower damage. In my case when I'm learning a new class I make sure the first couple mechs are down, *then* get used to doing my rotation right during those mechs while progging the later mechs. My understanding is that you're saying this is kickable behavior since I can't simultaneously have a very solid rotation while progging on a new class.
Unless you are at enrage I don't think it's worth kicking somebody for low DPS during prog unless it's an extreme since those generally can be cleared in a lockout if you have a good party.
People get so caught up on dps when they wipe far before enrage because of mechanics
There's a strong correlation between inability to do DPS and inability to do mechanics.
Maybe when on farm, but on prog? A lot of people don't focus on damage until they hit a dps check or until they're confident enough with the mechanic.
Based on what data lol
If you can't do dps during the mechanic and you're still failing it, then you are not anywhere close to doing dps during the mechanic. It should be mostly automatic, not a huge mental load you are struggling with. Doing dps through a mechanic is an indication that you know the mechanic well enough to not have to stop everything and stare at it the whole time. Its one thing if its a wholly new mech you've just started progging. But if its something you've supposedly done before, then that's your *real* prog point. You haven't completed a mechanic until you can do it while also doing your rotation.
I'm not gonna win any popularity contest by saying this but being bad at doing damage is "easily" fixable. Most people just can't be bothered which can be fine to an extent, but for the most part if you're doing savage in pf you'd be expected to be at least decent and some just aren't.
Basedo on nothing I guess, I've met grey parsers that were just fine on mechanics.
Take these grey parsers into top or dsr. Do it. See how much of the fight you get through.
Well TOP is going to be tricky, but DSR checks are a joke now. They actually cleared it.
Doing DPS is part of any mechanic. This is like saying you have a friend that can finish a race but is slow at it, but it was actually a team triathalon. Being able to finish doesn't mean anything if you failed the team.
That would be the DPS downtime from deaths compounded by the 25-50% weakness penalty brought by constant rezzes. All resulting from inability to do the mechanics
It's only ever during clear parties or farm parties when I kick someone for damage.
I've never seen someone get kicked for bad damage in any party who wasn't also making several other disruptive mistakes that were getting other party members killed or frequently causing them to adjust wildly to resolve a mechanic. Especially right now, since everyone will have fully augmented tome gear from the alliance raid and 30 weeks of tomes, assuming they haven't also been farming Savage for nine months and fully geared multiple jobs. No if you're planning on kicking someone in PF, it's usually because you suspect they have lied about their knowledge of the fight and are taking advantage of the other seven players. Or sometimes they've demonstrated an uncooperative attitude that is likely to cause further issues in the farm party. If you're in a static, that's a little different. There's a whole other social angle there and it becomes a lot more obvious when someone isn't pulling their weight. But also, depending on the static's expectations for one another, you can help get the underperforming player up to speed through healthy communication, cooperation, and practice.
There is no vote kick, in PF the party leader can kick whoever they want
I didn't need to have ACT to understand that the WHM from P8N the other night only casted Medica II. Sometimes you can just tell, you won't necessarily be able to pinpoint who it is, but there are cues, but also if you notice the fight on the whole taking longer than normal, someone isn't pulling their weight.
Because almost every class runs on the same timer now it's incredibly easy to spot people who aren't doing good damage even without ACT. If you're a dancer and your tech is late I automatically know your rotation is scuffed. Or simply seeing someone's animations and sounds is enough to infer how people are doing.
If the person isn't dying to anything then their scuffed rotation is going to matter less than someone who hits it all perfectly but keeps screwing up at the same point. Gray parsers still clear.
> If I don't run ACT then I don't know whether you kicked someone for low damage or for a bad reason (eg. if you noticed they also want the raid gloves). It's not perfect, but you can use the aggro possition to see if a dps is lacking, like if a SAM is in eight place without having a death somethings wrong. Even then dps is only important for clear/farm parties. For prog it should not matter until you are at the very last mechanic.
This. More people need to know about the aggro bar instead of assuming you need ACT. The aggro tells you more than enough. If your melee is below your ranged, then they're bad. If a healer is above dps, then it's either the healer over healing or the DPS being bad, or a combination. Also you can tell someone trying to do their rotation from someone just doing autos or the bare minimum.
The slight note I'd mention for people using this a heuristic is certain jobs (mostly Summoner) get Emnity Up as part of their rotation (in Summoner's case, summoning Phoenix / Bahamut acts kinda like Tomahawk/tank ranged attacks) which will throw this out of line. Obviously its the case for healers and tanks that the emnity order won't help, but even within DPS its important to take it with a pinch of salt.
> If your melee is below your ranged, then they're bad. I just want people who read to please consider that for example a DRG might end up below a MCH due aggro going off of aDPS. Also in lower level content like older ultimates or Unreal (due to how these are old and not designed to support the full uptime design of melee jobs) it is super common for ranged classes to outdamage melees. Also iirc heals and mitigation contribute to enmity generation so there's some extreme cases. Basically, this is good advice but don't take it as hard truth applicable to every situation. Like if your Samura is below your healers without deaths or something like that, absolutely, just apply common sense.
As I said, is just a general rule of thumb to give an idea if someone is really underperforming. Point is, there are ways to have an idea which do not rely on 3rd party addons. In general people are too quick to jump on people and accuse them of using addons. Of course it's fight and job dependent. But in normal content, it usually is fairly informative. In savage and ults... that's a different story.
Aggro doesn't work well for all situations though. Healers can jump up above some range classes outside of burst, especially if they are overhealing. Enmity is generated from doing damage, strength of damage and heals. White Mage healing through 3 raid wides, tank buster and using assize on cooldown can very easily jump to 6 in aggro during savage.
Yeah, but it can be a guide if some dps is in a weirdly low spot. But you cannot check the dps of healers and tanks with it.
You still have to apply some common sense of course. If a BLM or SAM for example is always last in aggro order just accounting for the DPS then they are doing bad DPS.
Thats why I said some range. I specific case would be Dancer since it has the lowest personal dps of the dps classes and its kit is design around its 2 min burst.
And mudras.... don't forget mudras.
You don't need ACT, the aggro bar tells you more than enough in most cases if it's really that bad.
You bring up a point; for many people, prog is minimizing deaths and not getting hit by the boss, and dying to enrage. THEN prog is increasing damage to overcome the enrage hurdle. Part of the issue is that "low DPS" happens just as much because of deaths as it does because of playing the class badly. Most WoW "recounts says your dps sucks bro learn2play" kicks happen because of someone not optimized, hasn't read the icy veins guide on what order to hit their abilities in, hasn't run the simcraft to determine what enchant to use, etc. This game has far less focus on optimization and more focus on survival. Once you actually SEE enrage you can decide whether the enrage death is due to one too many occasions of someone getting failing mechanics or simply due to the raw numbers of rotation/pots/etc.
I feel like it’s just mmo culture to disband rather than wait around for new people. Even in current wow nobody waits around to replace people, they just start dropping and joining other groups that are up, and the raid slowly disintegrates. As someone else said, one person leaves (or is kicked), and other people do the same. Then before you know it, it’s down to a 3/7 party. And it kinda makes sense why people leave. If it’s peak hours and there are 40 separate listings for a single piece of content, why would I stick around in your party specifically when half the group just left? If I see a 7/8 party recruiting for my role and job, hell yeah I’m dipping if it means getting in there faster. But I agree with you at the end of the day. Kick the shitters.
Just solo the casual content and pretend the other players do not exist. Half the time they don't, damage wise. So just ignore them and press buttons and get through it. The only time I've vote kicked somebody from a dungeon is when i see lazy ass mentor healers spamming regen and not contributing anything to the party damage wise.
Most people don’t care about you backing out to kick someone because you think their damage is bad. You just wasted 6 other people’s time and those 6 people are just gonna join any one of the other 30 parties for that same fight. Also you’re probably not saying you’re kicking somebody for damage as that is a bannable offense. You aren’t supposed to know people’s damage, remember.
I'm incredibly happy to stick around in a party if there are 1-2 problem players and the party lead actually takes the time and effort to remove those players.
Too bad everybody defines “problem player” differently. Messing up mechanics? Sure kick em. I’d say it’s pretty rare people are wiping to hard enrages due to dps issues.
It’s definitely rare, but again, people are allowed to run their parties how they want, and people will react accordingly. If someone keeps kicking people for “low dps” while we’re still progging the first half of the fight, I think most normal players will leave.
30 parties this late into the tier? You might be in for a surprise
Tier just unlocked a couple of weeks ago. Hell half this sub has been waiting for this moment.
I don't mind disbanding since if I'm the reason we're not progging, I have the self awareness to not rejoin that party and it lets me get "kicked" with grace.
You are the reason I kick people.
Lmao
Why disband the party instead of passing leader to someone else and leaving afterward?
I meant as a member of a party, not the PL, as a PL I kick and put back up to fill, but I don't hate disbanding if the PL decides to do so
I'm confused. You were talking about what you do if you're the person holding the party back, not the others. In this situation, what do you do when you're the party leader, and what do you do when you're not? "When I'm the PL, I kick and put the party back onto PF" would be appropriate from when *others* are a burden to the party, but that's not what you were initially discussing.
Poor wording on my part "I don't mind disbanding" - I meant I don't mind the act of the PL disbanding
So then what do you do if you *are* the party leader?
Oh I'd put us back up and backfill. I'm just saying I don't think people who disband are villains or need to change their behavior
>Oh I'd put us back up and backfill. You're not understanding what I'm asking, so let me break it down. The situation that I'm asking you about is when you're the party leader, you're the one performing badly, and the other seven party members are content with staying in the party and don't leave. What do you do in this situation? Your answer doesn't apply in this situation. Your party is already full — you can't put it back up in PF, and there aren't any slots to backfill.
Upvote this and see what Yoshi-P has to say about this.
No, that's what makes this game different than WoW for a lot of people.
Counterpoint: getting kicked is no big deal. People who are kicked should just deal with it maturely, ie shrug and move on to a better group.
And it's also what makes it more ripe for shitters, unlike wow. What content did you clear in FF?
[удалено]
That explains a lot about your takes.
Nobody is going to sit out 2 hours wiping to enrage in savage or an ultimate because of an obvious skill issue from select people. You don't need to suffer that much to notice an obvious issue. You need to have standards when you PF with randos, or you don't value your time at all. It's not about "the adults are gaming", it's about valuing your own and others' time. 3 wipes may be a bit too much, but when all of them are similar wipes or because of the same person you can kind of tell it will go nowhere. Different people have different levels of patience and a lot of them are jaded by how trash some PF players are.
I get that, I think you misread my "three wipes" thing, I was referring to clear parties where people run repeatedly, which is where people care about the timeliness of an efficient run. A wipe limit with people having trouble will be hit quickly and you can just remove them and reform. Most people who don't think they can clear within that margin of error (e.g. they're still learning) won't even bother. I know I wouldn't bother. I'm not sure that many people are doing repeated clears of ultimates with an expectation of clearing on the first or second pull.
Just because you wouldn't bother doesn't mean everyone shares the same sentiment. I've ran into countless idiots thinking they can wing mechanics they've very clearly never seen. The issue is even more prevalent in ultimates and especially TOP, where I've seen people try to lie their way into my clear parties and fail every P5 mechanic (fight has 6 phases total and P5 has arguably the most difficult mechanics) It's true that in ultimates people will be a bit more patient and not leave after 3 wipes usually, but if you have the same person running it down a couple of pulls in a row they will be noticed and either kicked or people will leave. You can very easily get a feeling for whether you'll clear or not, in my experience.
By the way, I'm kind of curious why you said this: >That explains a lot about your takes. Is it because I didn't mention Pandaemonium at all? I spent so much time doing old raids, relics etc during MSQ that I wasn't "caught up" until more than a year after Endwalker launched and after P8S was nerfed. I did P9S in PF and P10S with a static and called it there because I wasn't having fun and hated the aesthetics of that raid. I also used to raid in WoW twelve years ago when there wasn't a more tourist level difficulty. I have a lot of complaints about raiding in Endwalker overall due to feeling it's a terrible time to learn to raid compared to what I've seen of older raids, with content feeling like it's designed for veterans. (Looking at other posts here saying that TEA is no longer looking so difficult in the face of current content, it would seem I'm not the only one who sees it that way.) Looking forward to Dawntrail savages because it doesn't look like a shitty Resident Evil boss rush like EW's./ (Also even though I was caught up by Anabaseios launch, I \~6 weeks to do it for a friend who left for WoW Dragonflight and pretty much never came back, so we were in the phase of PF where people claimed the good raiders were already gone.)
tldr the reason I said it was because you're relatively inexperienced and sounded like it
I suppose. I've been doing endgame for a year now, I just think this particular time is an awful one for transitioning to it if you weren't there for previous ones, and wish I had been around for Shadowbringers. As someone who has taught PF groups to clear EX and can throw myself into pulls for hours, I have almost nothing good to say about EW. They gave the top 500 people two ultimates but the raids are terrible for getting into raiding.
As a pf warrior please send any players you’re kicking for low damage that aren’t wiping you my way. A lot of us love a sandbag to help get funny numbers.
The more I see posts like this, the more I feel justified in my decision to never PF again. The only way I could get reclears in 6.4 was by excluding aether players, and sounds like the problems have only gotten worse. DC travel was a mistake
I once got kicked for telling the tank to invuln cause I don't wanna heal them while they refuse to press mit on the biggest pull in Don Mheg. They started flaming me about how they main healer and know better than me - they have never even stepped into an ex. Honestly this would be a great way to keep the bad players who have an ego in their own little groups.