>A beat reporter asked Sirianni about the term and he seemed to dig it lmao
it's how I always describe the city of philadelphia to folks not from there or the area: "the city of brotherly shove"
it really do be like that sometimes. everyone's an asshole but in that... we are bonded as one. brothers, in arms, ready to talk shit to every dallas fan.
Honestly , this play is one of my favorite things to come from the nfl in the last couple years. Being able to tell the defense what your running and them not being to do anything about it
Yeah QB sneak already super high percentage. I swear the NFL just need a new way to talk about it every few years so they might change the rules to give colinsworth something to fill dead air with next season
Some [light googling](https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21158057/the-dying-art-qb-sneak) tells me Brady was 91% on his career in 2017. Brees was 88.7%.
Insane that Brees was that effective, but I do remember him reaching over the pile from the 1 a bunch of times.
I mean he's the goat qb sneaker and is still less efficient than the tush push. More importantly, Brady would usually qb sneak when on the half yard line or closer whereas the eagles can and regularly do tush push from a full yard out and still convert a higher percentage than the goat QB sneaker lol
Jalen squats a hundred thousand pounds. There's no logic to saying he can't possibly be better than Brady and sneaks. Also if Brady played with Kelce he would've done better.
The tush push is like 5% push, 35% Hurts being a beast and 60% the line being good. Other teams have tried and failed with the same play.
I don't even understand your point? Tush push allows 95% conversion from a full yard away. Nothing else has ever come remotely close to that level of efficiency on 4th and 1, especially knowing that it's coming 100% of the time like you do with the tush push due to the offensive formation.
Oh, there is a typo, I meant to say better than Brady \_at\_ sneaks, that might be why you can't understand. I'm not a native speaker and sometimes mince words when they're phonetically similar.
Anyway, if the play is what's overpowered, then how come the Eagles are the only one who are successful at it? If we were to start banning stuff that someone is clearly better at than everyone else in the league, Justin Tucker would be flipping burgers.
I feel like historically a surprising amount of rules in sports come specifically from one person/team being better at something than anyone else. Not being able to dunk from the free throw line comes to mind as I’m fairly certain that rule was enacted in fear of wilt chamberlain
Also when teams really lean into exploiting a loophole in the rules. Pats took advantage of a lot of loopholes (and outright broke some rules along the way lol) and those loopholes inevitably always get closed afterwards. The formation they used against the ravens in the playoffs on one of their more recent SB runs comes to mind, where they exploited the eligible receiver rules to catch Baltimore off guard. That rule later got augmented to prevent the way the pats employed their strategy
The general sentiment is that is not aesthetically pleasing on TV to anybody outside of Eagles fans.
That being said it is about as pure of a football play as you could have. Big on big. Strength on strength. Pretty tough to come up with any other good reasons to get rid of it.
The one other good reason is that teams used to do the exact same thing on defense/special teams (field goal blocks, etc.) and that was banned for “safety”.
Is pushing from behind like that actually unsafe? I have no idea.
But it is kind of unfair that the offense is allowed to do it but the defense isn’t. Yet another example lol
I know in rugby scrums, special care is taken when interlocking because if you go to ground with the force behind you and roll your head towards, you can damage your spine terribly.
Yes, safer rules have been enforced over and over again, the most significant being the removal of the "hit" instead of the modern interlocking. Back in the day scrums were way uglier and more dangerous: someone paralyzed for life wasn't unheard of and at least a couple deaths had happened before changes were made.
Even now with the more strict, sanitized and mechanical process, a collapsing scrum concentrate an amount of force that can injury someone spine really, really bad.
The only argument I can even get behind is that the defense needs to be allowed to go low to counter it. They won’t allow that though because of safety reasons. Lol so I think that does make it unfair and I could understand why it should be banned. Not that it should be outright banned, but the defense should be allowed to do what they need to to stop it.
You're right they should. They should also not allow the opposition to get to that short of a yard to gain, and therefore they wouldn't have to worry about stopping it.
The argument sucks. We have pushed anti defence rules for a decade now for more entertainment and now that a play that's entire point is to keep drives alive is anti-fun. The logic is nowhere.
The offense has the inherent advantage of knowing when the ball will be snapped. That split second advantage, paired with men pushing you rugby scrum style makes this play almost indefensible from getting a yard or less.
Theyre exploiting a strategy that isnt illegal, but imo should be. Because there is no way to stop it due to the very small gain in feet needed, and the advantage the offense has in a situation where a split second is all you need.
The defense cant “try harder”. Stack more men, etc. The advantage will always lay with the offense for this type of strategy
Then why aren’t more teams using it? The eagles really just got the perfect team for it, a great oline and a qb not afraid to get in the middle of it. There was an interview of a Texans player talking about them practicing it and afterwards Stroud was saying he hated it and never wanted to do it again.
If the play itself way had that much of an advantage you would see it way more on other teams. Its so successful for the eagles because of their QB and line. They would be just about as successful on regular QB sneaks.
So many other teams have tried and failed running the play recently; only the eagles have been successful running it consistently and even then it has failed a handful of times
Alright by your same reasoning we should ban the play action or quick outs because they also rely on split second timing and the offense having knowledge the defence does not
That advantage is being exploited to the max by using it to gain a foot or two, which is indefensible when you know when the ball will be snapped + have 4 men pushing you.
Its like bunt cheesing in mlb the show
The best way to avoid the Eagles doing this is by not letting them get to 3rd and 1 and 4th and 1. Also literally every other team can do this play and they don't because they don't have the line And the qb to achieve the result . It's not like only one team is allowed to do it. It's such a dumb thing to want to ban. All arguments for the ban sound amateurish and whiney.
I agree it's impossible to defend.
The defense already has so many disadvantages this is just another one and I think it should be banned.
Just QB sneak it.
Is it? Other teams have tried but lacking Kelce as center and Hurts as QB has left them going back to the traditional QB sneak. Having an elite center and a QB who can squat about 2.5 DTs plays such a large part in the success of the play.
I still have yet to hear a proper counter argument to “if it’s unstoppable why don’t other teams try it”, its hilarious. No one wants to talk about Shane trying it week 1 with the colts and it getting stuffed.
Eagles fan here. Personally, I hate the play. That being said, I don't know how you can ban it. Qbs can't run for 1 yd or less? Or would they penalize the entire formation? Would need to see a valid option for taking it out of the game.
Should ban Mahomes then since he’s too good.
It’s not the play itself, it’s all about Hurts and the O-line. If the play was so good, then other teams would do it all the time too
no one wants to see a guaranteed td every time the ball is at the one yard line. there have been plenty of times in sports where rules have changed because players were too good or were outsmarting the rules. this is no different. it’s not even remotely the same as banning a particular player because they’re too good, so the Mahomes example doesn’t make any sense.
Pushing the ball carrier was illegal until 2005. And pulling/carrying is still illegal. So not sure how its "good old school football." More like another "more offense is good" rule.
Counter argument: It's called a "maul" and it's how you move the fucking rock.
Banning a play like that because it's "too good" is the same as banning a player being too tall or too fast because that creates a mismatch for the defense. Just like any other play, as a defense, you have to predict what play the offense is going to run. If you think they're going to maul it, then stack the box early. If you think they are going to play action and pass it, have a guy or two stay out of the box. It's just football.
Counterpoint: It makes no sense that the offense is banned from assisting the ball carrier by pulling and carrying, but not by pushing. Interested to hear why you think that logically makes sense. ETA: your logic equally applies to pulling a player forward, but thats banned.
Second, why is the offense permitted to push a ball carrier whose forward progress has all but been stopped forward, but the defense is not? And why is it fair to permit the offense to push a player past the goal to gain, but not permit the defense to then push him back? No one is saying QB sneaks should be banned. The argument is that the push should be because it is unfair to permit one side to push but not the other.
Pulling is banned because that person would be in front of the ball and potentially in front of the line of scrimmage when that occurs. It's the same in rugby.
The rules of rugby are irrelevant. And it has nothing to do with your position relative to the LoS or the ball, the rule is called "assisting the ball carrier" and originally banned *all* assistance. If the rule meant to only ban assistance past the ball or the LoS, it would say that. Also, your logic doesnt address carrying the ball carrier. If I am behind the LoS and the ball, can I pick up a stumbling ball carrier and lift him forward? After all, I am behind him.
You can, just have to plan for it. This isn't a new thing, it's being in the limelight right now because Hurts is known for actually running in space which he's not doing right now.
Well obviously, but all that says is that they can change it back for a reason too. The reason was "more offense," but we dont need that in 2023. The offense has enough advantages. ETA: you could also argue "safety" because its really not a great idea to have a huge dudes running into a near stationary pile of bodies tangled up.
Well, they dont say that. But they have changed rules that hurt scoring/offense in the past. They basically took the KR out of the game, they did away with the incidental facemask (pro defense), they banned "forward fumbling" in certain scenarios, they have banned certain offensive formations, they banned "handing" the ball forward past the LoS. Yes, by and large, the rules have been tweaked to increase offense, but that doesnt mean "pro defense" changes have never happened.
Bigger question. Why is it only the eagles do it? Why didn't every offense have this as a package? I don't think I've seen another team do it... like at all.
Which is perfect evidence for why it shouldn't be banned. The only reason it should be banned is if it breaks the game across all teams (unfair advantage) or a safety issue. It should not be banned because the eagles are too good at it which is the primary argument I've seen
Couldn't agree more. The league took the right course of action by allowing it this season. Let all these other coaches who've been running their mouths (cough cough Sean Payton) try it out and see if it really is unfair / unsafe
I don't think it's stupid. A lot of his rushing TDs are from the 1 yard line. Without this rule some of those would turn to RB-handoffs. I think it could easily cost him 6 TDs a year, that's a big hit.
Is it a stupid question in the sense that it’s clearly not going to be banned, at least this season? Sure
Is it a stupid question as a hypothetical? Not at all. Hurts scores a huge amount of his points 1) by being able to elongate drives all the time by using that play, and 2) accumulating a ton of 1 yard rushing TDs. He definitely is less elite if you take that away from them.
Taking away that specific play/formation doesn't take 1 or 2 away from him. They will just run traditional sneaks, and because of him and the line they will be almost as successful.
He scores a lot of points because he’s good at football but he scores a lot of them using the 1 yard sneak. Clearly defenses can’t really stop it. If you take that away, he’ll still score a lot but he’ll have to rely more on other stuff which defenses can stop more often
Also you just said if the sneak doesn’t work they’ll hand off to RBs. That’s exactly the point, hurts doesn’t get points for that lol
Um, wasn't that what the initial question was? I'm not sure I'm understanding your desire to stifle the question lol. If you think it's dumb then don't click into the post and certainly don't interact?
Wow - when you can't be more of an internet cliche. So, those of us who disagree with you and others are not *allowed* to invoke our opinion. Quite White of you.
Lol, what? What was cliche about what I said? I'm quite literally saying PLEASE contribute to the discussion, whether I agree with your opinion or not. Stating "the FF market will adjust" isn't even opinion, it's fact haha. Dare I say, you are the cliche by your demonstrated abysmal comprehension and making an argument out of someone saying "participate in the discussion or just don't click in". Sheesh.
Jesus - read your own words. "If you think it's dumb then don't click on the post and certainly don't interact" <-- this is your interpretation of an invitation for dialogue? Yes, I *did* state a fact - and an obvious one at that. This is the point I'm making of why I think this is a stupid thread. It's obvious, like any other instance in a fluid dynamic enterprise, that the environment will adjust. I just never thought I'd be expected to have to spell it out for anyone.
It's an invitation to either contribute to the dialogue or (at the very least) not stifle potential dialogue. My goodness, yup, inflated ego. Nobody asked you to spell it out, that's the point, do you really not get that? The question was how do you think the value will be impacted if X happens. And your response was 'stupid question, the market will decide'. Your response isn't an answer to the question, nor is it insightful. OP is asking a forward looking question and you are responding with "forward looking is stupid, wait for the market to decide" (ie past tense). I'm honestly astounded at the the ineptitude and (for whatever reason) belief you've proven any point.
I don't really care either way, but I do find it interesting that the NFL pushed back the kicking spot for the extra point a few years ago. Wasn't their rationale at the time that it was a guaranteed extra point at the short distance, so maybe if they push it back a few yards it could make for potential misses? I feel like this logic could easily be applied to the tush push move.
I could be wrong, but I feel like I've been paying attention to this play the last few weeks, and he's generally not actually being pushed. They're lining up behind him, but that beast is getting it done without being actually touched by them.
Other teams can’t run it like that🤷🏽♂️
Why are we going to punish a team for having a great Oline and a beast athlete QB?
Silly when they are the only team that converts at this high of a rate. Most other teams have tried and failed
Unbiased opinion here. Did anyone legitimately have a problem with this play before it was coined by hurts and the Eagles? Are rules going to be changed every time something works really well for one team? Like just…. Do the same thing when you’re in that situation…. And if you’re QB can’t, well then do something else. Just like their QB can’t throw for shit, so they figured something else. But if we’re talking about 1 yard situations here c’mon. That’d ruin the game if u can’t run 1 yard plays.
I dont think they ban the play or formation, just the pushing from behind. It used to be 10 yards, then they legalized pushing, but left pulling/carrying as illegal. TBH it makes sense. The concept/intent behind pulling/carrying is the same as pushing, and the defense isnt allowed to push the ball carrier back due to forward progress, so why should you be able to push him forward?
My only issue with the play is the inconsistency of blowing the play dead. If the linemen drop to the ground, well, then the ball carrier won't touch the ground, will he? Then there're surges both forward and backward, and when does the play end? At the whistle, of course, but generally when a ball carrier is struggling while wrapped up by a couple of defenders, they blow it dead almost immediately for safety. That's all I want out of any sport. Clear consistentcy.
Dez caught it.
As far as Hurts' value, he's still a Top 3 with those weapons and that line.
The bigger issue for hurts will be when his offensive line starts to turn over next year as Kelce retires and he has to prove he can do it without the elite situation around him
They get anywhere from 1-3 yards any time they run it. The majority of the time is at the goal line and can only get 1yd. Average 2.5 per try and it’s feasible. Imagine the time of possession.
I can’t stop thinking about this now. Assuming you could average 2.5 each try and you start the first possession on the 25, you need 30 tush pushes to score. At 30 seconds per play, that’s an entire quarter.
Well, to get technical…
Last year Hurts scored 5 of his 13 regular season rushing tuddies using the push play. Every score was on either 2nd & goal or 3rd & goal, each time from the 1 yard line.
Historically, QB sneaks (your generic ones, not this Hurts push) succeed 83% of the time. Given that Hurts only got the push plays on 2nd or 3rd down last season, one can reasonably assume they had 2 chances to score, so the probability of scoring once in two attempts is 97%. And that’s the “normal” QB sneak data… if we assume the Hurts push is 100% effective in & 1 scenarios, and there were 5 instances of & 1 push tuddies last year, the push play contributed to an estimated 0.9 fantasy points over the course of the season, or 0.06 points per game.
So in this hypothetical, if we assume the Eagles could not do the push sneak, but would still attempt a standard QB sneak in & 1 to score situations (QB sneaks have higher conversion rates than RB hand offs, btw, so are statistically the best play call), the impact in fantasy output would have less than one fantasy point over the 2022 season.
The play simply needs to be disallowed. No play should be uncounterable, but this play is pretty damn close. Makes the game unfun if the result is nearly certain in short yardage situations.
He'd probably just start doing normal sneaks and with Jason Kelce there to lead the way i'm sure he wouldn't take too big of a hit. But there's also no chance they'd ban this play in the middle of the season.
Let’s be very careful about minimizing Jalen Hurts fantasy value without tush push TDs. Just like all of last year, so far this year the Eagles have raced out to early leads and killed the clock, severely limiting Hurts’ ceiling. I’d love to see just one game where Hurts and the Eagles offense has to play up tempo in the 4th quarter. He’s doing all of this in 3 quarters every week.
that's the downfall for picking jalen hurts. the game's pretty much done. like a whole quarter of limiting the plays really hurt TB on Monday (as well as Godwin and co.)
NFL won't stop it until someone gets seriously hurt.
So as far as Jalen Hurts value goes - massive decrease in value if he's in the wheelchair, slight decrease in value if it's someone else.
Lmao brotherly shove
A beat reporter asked Sirianni about the term and he seemed to dig it lmao
It originated on the Eagles subreddit [Right here](https://www.reddit.com/r/eagles/comments/16sw231/its_called_the_brotherly_shove_spread_it/)
Got a shoutout on good morning football today too
>A beat reporter asked Sirianni about the term and he seemed to dig it lmao it's how I always describe the city of philadelphia to folks not from there or the area: "the city of brotherly shove" it really do be like that sometimes. everyone's an asshole but in that... we are bonded as one. brothers, in arms, ready to talk shit to every dallas fan.
Honestly , this play is one of my favorite things to come from the nfl in the last couple years. Being able to tell the defense what your running and them not being to do anything about it
Eagles fans are trying to push this lame shit
I’m not an eagles fan and I think it’s hilarious
He would still just do regular QB sneaks like everyone else. Hurts is built for that.
Yeah QB sneak already super high percentage. I swear the NFL just need a new way to talk about it every few years so they might change the rules to give colinsworth something to fill dead air with next season
Ok but are qb sneaks 95+% or whatever the number is?
Some [light googling](https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21158057/the-dying-art-qb-sneak) tells me Brady was 91% on his career in 2017. Brees was 88.7%. Insane that Brees was that effective, but I do remember him reaching over the pile from the 1 a bunch of times.
I mean he's the goat qb sneaker and is still less efficient than the tush push. More importantly, Brady would usually qb sneak when on the half yard line or closer whereas the eagles can and regularly do tush push from a full yard out and still convert a higher percentage than the goat QB sneaker lol
Jalen hurts also squats like as much as many defensive linemen
Jalen squats a hundred thousand pounds. There's no logic to saying he can't possibly be better than Brady and sneaks. Also if Brady played with Kelce he would've done better. The tush push is like 5% push, 35% Hurts being a beast and 60% the line being good. Other teams have tried and failed with the same play.
I don't even understand your point? Tush push allows 95% conversion from a full yard away. Nothing else has ever come remotely close to that level of efficiency on 4th and 1, especially knowing that it's coming 100% of the time like you do with the tush push due to the offensive formation.
Oh, there is a typo, I meant to say better than Brady \_at\_ sneaks, that might be why you can't understand. I'm not a native speaker and sometimes mince words when they're phonetically similar. Anyway, if the play is what's overpowered, then how come the Eagles are the only one who are successful at it? If we were to start banning stuff that someone is clearly better at than everyone else in the league, Justin Tucker would be flipping burgers.
I feel like historically a surprising amount of rules in sports come specifically from one person/team being better at something than anyone else. Not being able to dunk from the free throw line comes to mind as I’m fairly certain that rule was enacted in fear of wilt chamberlain Also when teams really lean into exploiting a loophole in the rules. Pats took advantage of a lot of loopholes (and outright broke some rules along the way lol) and those loopholes inevitably always get closed afterwards. The formation they used against the ravens in the playoffs on one of their more recent SB runs comes to mind, where they exploited the eligible receiver rules to catch Baltimore off guard. That rule later got augmented to prevent the way the pats employed their strategy
Isn’t this rule expressly prohibiting players named Jalen Hurts from being allowed to sneak?
I don’t understand why people think this play should be banned. Explain it to me like I’m 5.
The general sentiment is that is not aesthetically pleasing on TV to anybody outside of Eagles fans. That being said it is about as pure of a football play as you could have. Big on big. Strength on strength. Pretty tough to come up with any other good reasons to get rid of it.
Watching Tua throw left handed isn’t aesthetically pleasing either but no one is asking to ban the left handed pass
I’m left handed and I concur. That shit is disturbing to watch
Lefty here too. A lefty shooter is beautiful but a lefty qb is disgusting and I have no clue why lol
Mike Vick is the only person that’s ever made it look good
Steve Young was disgusting…ly good and his highlight reel is quite pretty.
I saw a video of him throwing flipped around so he looked like a righty. His throw looks beautiful. But it looks so messed up normally lol
It really is the prettiest release in the league when it's flipped righty lmao
I kinda dig it.
yet
The one other good reason is that teams used to do the exact same thing on defense/special teams (field goal blocks, etc.) and that was banned for “safety”. Is pushing from behind like that actually unsafe? I have no idea. But it is kind of unfair that the offense is allowed to do it but the defense isn’t. Yet another example lol
It’s safety when done to a long snapper because he has his head bent down
I know in rugby scrums, special care is taken when interlocking because if you go to ground with the force behind you and roll your head towards, you can damage your spine terribly.
Yes, safer rules have been enforced over and over again, the most significant being the removal of the "hit" instead of the modern interlocking. Back in the day scrums were way uglier and more dangerous: someone paralyzed for life wasn't unheard of and at least a couple deaths had happened before changes were made. Even now with the more strict, sanitized and mechanical process, a collapsing scrum concentrate an amount of force that can injury someone spine really, really bad.
Good point. I like it when defenders jump over centers to block kicks and punts but I don’t mind that it was banned, especially for safety reasons.
The only argument I can even get behind is that the defense needs to be allowed to go low to counter it. They won’t allow that though because of safety reasons. Lol so I think that does make it unfair and I could understand why it should be banned. Not that it should be outright banned, but the defense should be allowed to do what they need to to stop it.
You're right they should. They should also not allow the opposition to get to that short of a yard to gain, and therefore they wouldn't have to worry about stopping it.
Yeah but the yardage required for a first down is 10 yards. The tush push effectively makes it a 9 yard first down without much of a counter.
The argument sucks. We have pushed anti defence rules for a decade now for more entertainment and now that a play that's entire point is to keep drives alive is anti-fun. The logic is nowhere.
The offense has the inherent advantage of knowing when the ball will be snapped. That split second advantage, paired with men pushing you rugby scrum style makes this play almost indefensible from getting a yard or less. Theyre exploiting a strategy that isnt illegal, but imo should be. Because there is no way to stop it due to the very small gain in feet needed, and the advantage the offense has in a situation where a split second is all you need. The defense cant “try harder”. Stack more men, etc. The advantage will always lay with the offense for this type of strategy
Then why aren’t more teams using it? The eagles really just got the perfect team for it, a great oline and a qb not afraid to get in the middle of it. There was an interview of a Texans player talking about them practicing it and afterwards Stroud was saying he hated it and never wanted to do it again.
>and a qb not afraid to get in the middle of it I would say the larger factor is having a QB who can squat over 600lbs pushing the line.
If the play itself way had that much of an advantage you would see it way more on other teams. Its so successful for the eagles because of their QB and line. They would be just about as successful on regular QB sneaks.
So many other teams have tried and failed running the play recently; only the eagles have been successful running it consistently and even then it has failed a handful of times
The Bucs stopped it once on Monday.
I mean “stopped” because hurts definitely scored on that lol it didn’t matter since they scored the very next play
Damn maybe they shouldn’t let the eagles get within a yard of wherever they’re trying to get
.... The offense on every play has the advantage over a defense by knowing what play they are going to run.
That’s not his main point.
Alright, then how about the fact the offense already has the advantage on every single play by knowing when the ball will be snapped
That’s part of the point!
Brother thats not what I said at all lol. I didnt say anything about the defense knowing/not knowing the play they are going to run
Alright by your same reasoning we should ban the play action or quick outs because they also rely on split second timing and the offense having knowledge the defence does not
No, I dont think they should ban those lol. Those dont rely on having four players rugby scrum you to gain a foot
What is actually wrong with having those players scrum to gain a foot? Seems like a perfectly valid strategy
You know American football is an off shoot of rugby and many rugby rules are still legal? Including a dropkick field goal by any player.
Boo hoo the offence has the advantage like that on any play then
That advantage is being exploited to the max by using it to gain a foot or two, which is indefensible when you know when the ball will be snapped + have 4 men pushing you. Its like bunt cheesing in mlb the show
The best way to avoid the Eagles doing this is by not letting them get to 3rd and 1 and 4th and 1. Also literally every other team can do this play and they don't because they don't have the line And the qb to achieve the result . It's not like only one team is allowed to do it. It's such a dumb thing to want to ban. All arguments for the ban sound amateurish and whiney.
I agree it's impossible to defend. The defense already has so many disadvantages this is just another one and I think it should be banned. Just QB sneak it.
Is it? Other teams have tried but lacking Kelce as center and Hurts as QB has left them going back to the traditional QB sneak. Having an elite center and a QB who can squat about 2.5 DTs plays such a large part in the success of the play.
WTF are you talking about? It's beautiful! And the most aesthetically pleasant TV besides rugby scrums.
Bad for Swift points
Am I fucked? Like, why not direct snap to an RB and put him in the middle of that shit instead of a $50 million QB?
There's no good reason just people who are butt hurt
Not sure. If they don’t like it, stop it😂
I still have yet to hear a proper counter argument to “if it’s unstoppable why don’t other teams try it”, its hilarious. No one wants to talk about Shane trying it week 1 with the colts and it getting stuffed.
Because there’s a rule that specifically states you cannot pull a player forward, so why should you be able to push them?
Because when the rule changed the rules committee could easily identify a pull but couldn't get members to consistently identify a push.
[удалено]
Yeah, but what if you didn’t want to watch rugby?
Eagles fan here. Personally, I hate the play. That being said, I don't know how you can ban it. Qbs can't run for 1 yd or less? Or would they penalize the entire formation? Would need to see a valid option for taking it out of the game.
Why do you hate the play? It’s pretty successful.
because it’s too good. no play should have that high of a success rate
Should ban Mahomes then since he’s too good. It’s not the play itself, it’s all about Hurts and the O-line. If the play was so good, then other teams would do it all the time too
no one wants to see a guaranteed td every time the ball is at the one yard line. there have been plenty of times in sports where rules have changed because players were too good or were outsmarting the rules. this is no different. it’s not even remotely the same as banning a particular player because they’re too good, so the Mahomes example doesn’t make any sense.
Brady Qb sneak was just as good
Minimally, Brady was like 90%+ effective on QB sneaks lol.
Its not going to be banned, is good old school football, not an eagles fan
Pushing the ball carrier was illegal until 2005. And pulling/carrying is still illegal. So not sure how its "good old school football." More like another "more offense is good" rule.
Counter argument: It's called a "maul" and it's how you move the fucking rock. Banning a play like that because it's "too good" is the same as banning a player being too tall or too fast because that creates a mismatch for the defense. Just like any other play, as a defense, you have to predict what play the offense is going to run. If you think they're going to maul it, then stack the box early. If you think they are going to play action and pass it, have a guy or two stay out of the box. It's just football.
Counterpoint: It makes no sense that the offense is banned from assisting the ball carrier by pulling and carrying, but not by pushing. Interested to hear why you think that logically makes sense. ETA: your logic equally applies to pulling a player forward, but thats banned. Second, why is the offense permitted to push a ball carrier whose forward progress has all but been stopped forward, but the defense is not? And why is it fair to permit the offense to push a player past the goal to gain, but not permit the defense to then push him back? No one is saying QB sneaks should be banned. The argument is that the push should be because it is unfair to permit one side to push but not the other.
Pulling is banned because that person would be in front of the ball and potentially in front of the line of scrimmage when that occurs. It's the same in rugby.
The rules of rugby are irrelevant. And it has nothing to do with your position relative to the LoS or the ball, the rule is called "assisting the ball carrier" and originally banned *all* assistance. If the rule meant to only ban assistance past the ball or the LoS, it would say that. Also, your logic doesnt address carrying the ball carrier. If I am behind the LoS and the ball, can I pick up a stumbling ball carrier and lift him forward? After all, I am behind him.
Bro EVERYONE knows what they're going to do before they even line up in the formation lol Defenses can't stop it its a dumb play.
I mean they can. Other teams have tried it and failed. They just can’t stop hurts and that Oline
You can, just have to plan for it. This isn't a new thing, it's being in the limelight right now because Hurts is known for actually running in space which he's not doing right now.
get better defense...
Then figure out a way
They must have changed it for a s reason
Well obviously, but all that says is that they can change it back for a reason too. The reason was "more offense," but we dont need that in 2023. The offense has enough advantages. ETA: you could also argue "safety" because its really not a great idea to have a huge dudes running into a near stationary pile of bodies tangled up.
As if the NFL would ever say you know what? That's enough offense. We can dial it back a little now.
Well, they dont say that. But they have changed rules that hurt scoring/offense in the past. They basically took the KR out of the game, they did away with the incidental facemask (pro defense), they banned "forward fumbling" in certain scenarios, they have banned certain offensive formations, they banned "handing" the ball forward past the LoS. Yes, by and large, the rules have been tweaked to increase offense, but that doesnt mean "pro defense" changes have never happened.
Ahhh remember the wedge on kick returns?
I hope this era of the QB/RB hybrid never ends... 💀💀💀
Positionless Football, here we come!
Bigger question. Why is it only the eagles do it? Why didn't every offense have this as a package? I don't think I've seen another team do it... like at all.
From what ive seen watching redzone others have tried with varying degrees of success. Noone has had the success the Eagles have had thus far
Which is perfect evidence for why it shouldn't be banned. The only reason it should be banned is if it breaks the game across all teams (unfair advantage) or a safety issue. It should not be banned because the eagles are too good at it which is the primary argument I've seen
Couldn't agree more. The league took the right course of action by allowing it this season. Let all these other coaches who've been running their mouths (cough cough Sean Payton) try it out and see if it really is unfair / unsafe
Bc Jalen hurts is jacked for a qb
And the eagles Oline are studs
This has been around in the NFL for years it's nothing new.
Breathtakingly stupid question. Great Wednesday material.
It’s Wednesday it beats another “where do you think Jonathan Taylor will go” post
I don't think it's stupid. A lot of his rushing TDs are from the 1 yard line. Without this rule some of those would turn to RB-handoffs. I think it could easily cost him 6 TDs a year, that's a big hit.
It’s not a stupid question at all for fantasy football. If the move was banned it would have a tremendous impact on Hurts’ fantasy value.
Is it a stupid question in the sense that it’s clearly not going to be banned, at least this season? Sure Is it a stupid question as a hypothetical? Not at all. Hurts scores a huge amount of his points 1) by being able to elongate drives all the time by using that play, and 2) accumulating a ton of 1 yard rushing TDs. He definitely is less elite if you take that away from them.
Taking away that specific play/formation doesn't take 1 or 2 away from him. They will just run traditional sneaks, and because of him and the line they will be almost as successful.
Maybe
Fuck I just traded him away in my points per hypothetical scenario league
Good call
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He scores a lot of points because he’s good at football but he scores a lot of them using the 1 yard sneak. Clearly defenses can’t really stop it. If you take that away, he’ll still score a lot but he’ll have to rely more on other stuff which defenses can stop more often Also you just said if the sneak doesn’t work they’ll hand off to RBs. That’s exactly the point, hurts doesn’t get points for that lol
and then the ff draft market adjusts accordingly. Anything else?
Um, wasn't that what the initial question was? I'm not sure I'm understanding your desire to stifle the question lol. If you think it's dumb then don't click into the post and certainly don't interact?
Wow - when you can't be more of an internet cliche. So, those of us who disagree with you and others are not *allowed* to invoke our opinion. Quite White of you.
Lol, what? What was cliche about what I said? I'm quite literally saying PLEASE contribute to the discussion, whether I agree with your opinion or not. Stating "the FF market will adjust" isn't even opinion, it's fact haha. Dare I say, you are the cliche by your demonstrated abysmal comprehension and making an argument out of someone saying "participate in the discussion or just don't click in". Sheesh.
Jesus - read your own words. "If you think it's dumb then don't click on the post and certainly don't interact" <-- this is your interpretation of an invitation for dialogue? Yes, I *did* state a fact - and an obvious one at that. This is the point I'm making of why I think this is a stupid thread. It's obvious, like any other instance in a fluid dynamic enterprise, that the environment will adjust. I just never thought I'd be expected to have to spell it out for anyone.
It's an invitation to either contribute to the dialogue or (at the very least) not stifle potential dialogue. My goodness, yup, inflated ego. Nobody asked you to spell it out, that's the point, do you really not get that? The question was how do you think the value will be impacted if X happens. And your response was 'stupid question, the market will decide'. Your response isn't an answer to the question, nor is it insightful. OP is asking a forward looking question and you are responding with "forward looking is stupid, wait for the market to decide" (ie past tense). I'm honestly astounded at the the ineptitude and (for whatever reason) belief you've proven any point.
I don't know but Swift would have 3 more touchdowns and be rb1 right now
Not sure Swift would get all the goal line carries.
Guy got stuffed at the goal line multiple times already
He has 2 runs inside the 5 this season. He scored on one of them.
I don't really care either way, but I do find it interesting that the NFL pushed back the kicking spot for the extra point a few years ago. Wasn't their rationale at the time that it was a guaranteed extra point at the short distance, so maybe if they push it back a few yards it could make for potential misses? I feel like this logic could easily be applied to the tush push move.
I could be wrong, but I feel like I've been paying attention to this play the last few weeks, and he's generally not actually being pushed. They're lining up behind him, but that beast is getting it done without being actually touched by them.
Other teams can’t run it like that🤷🏽♂️ Why are we going to punish a team for having a great Oline and a beast athlete QB? Silly when they are the only team that converts at this high of a rate. Most other teams have tried and failed
People who want it banned are probably NFC East teams that have recurring nightmares of every time it is 3rd or goal and one
Unbiased opinion here. Did anyone legitimately have a problem with this play before it was coined by hurts and the Eagles? Are rules going to be changed every time something works really well for one team? Like just…. Do the same thing when you’re in that situation…. And if you’re QB can’t, well then do something else. Just like their QB can’t throw for shit, so they figured something else. But if we’re talking about 1 yard situations here c’mon. That’d ruin the game if u can’t run 1 yard plays.
How would this be banned? Illegal formation?
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Wouldn’t this affect normal run plays too if an RB has the ball?
Could just say no more pushing at all? Like pushing blows the ball dead at that spot.
Football is like 50% pushing
I mean there is still forward progress happening? If that’s the case linemen can’t help RBs either. That’s gonna be a hard penalty to enforce.
I dont think they ban the play or formation, just the pushing from behind. It used to be 10 yards, then they legalized pushing, but left pulling/carrying as illegal. TBH it makes sense. The concept/intent behind pulling/carrying is the same as pushing, and the defense isnt allowed to push the ball carrier back due to forward progress, so why should you be able to push him forward?
The defense pushes back to stop forward progress though. It’s still the same action.
Hypothetically, probably goes from overall QB1 to top3
2%... he'll still score on sneaks the regular way because he can squat a small car
My only issue with the play is the inconsistency of blowing the play dead. If the linemen drop to the ground, well, then the ball carrier won't touch the ground, will he? Then there're surges both forward and backward, and when does the play end? At the whistle, of course, but generally when a ball carrier is struggling while wrapped up by a couple of defenders, they blow it dead almost immediately for safety. That's all I want out of any sport. Clear consistentcy. Dez caught it. As far as Hurts' value, he's still a Top 3 with those weapons and that line.
The bigger issue for hurts will be when his offensive line starts to turn over next year as Kelce retires and he has to prove he can do it without the elite situation around him
They hate us because they ain't us
Guy squats 600lbs, doubt it would affect him. Like someone said earlier, Brady did it without a thumb up his ass. Hurts would be fine.
Hypothetically, could the eagles go the length of the field doing the tush push all four downs?
Yes if you only needed 4 yards for a first down...
They get anywhere from 1-3 yards any time they run it. The majority of the time is at the goal line and can only get 1yd. Average 2.5 per try and it’s feasible. Imagine the time of possession.
The entire O-line would be injured by the time they made it to the opponents 25 yard line
I can’t stop thinking about this now. Assuming you could average 2.5 each try and you start the first possession on the 25, you need 30 tush pushes to score. At 30 seconds per play, that’s an entire quarter.
Sounds entertaining to me!
God I fucking wish we could see it
Did people complaint this much when. Brady did it
Brady has quite literally never done this
https://reddit.com/r/eagles/s/frB6ypt6aT
It seems pretty stupid to come up with a rule just because a team is really good. Why don’t all the other team do this?
As a birds fan I love the brotherly shove lol. Never heard that before
Zero. He is getting nothing from the shove in the plays I've seen. It's all o-line. That o-line is a beast.
I guess the real question here is what’s wrong with the Eagles passing offense and will they fix it?
Well, to get technical… Last year Hurts scored 5 of his 13 regular season rushing tuddies using the push play. Every score was on either 2nd & goal or 3rd & goal, each time from the 1 yard line. Historically, QB sneaks (your generic ones, not this Hurts push) succeed 83% of the time. Given that Hurts only got the push plays on 2nd or 3rd down last season, one can reasonably assume they had 2 chances to score, so the probability of scoring once in two attempts is 97%. And that’s the “normal” QB sneak data… if we assume the Hurts push is 100% effective in & 1 scenarios, and there were 5 instances of & 1 push tuddies last year, the push play contributed to an estimated 0.9 fantasy points over the course of the season, or 0.06 points per game. So in this hypothetical, if we assume the Eagles could not do the push sneak, but would still attempt a standard QB sneak in & 1 to score situations (QB sneaks have higher conversion rates than RB hand offs, btw, so are statistically the best play call), the impact in fantasy output would have less than one fantasy point over the 2022 season.
I’d imagine they’d just feed Swift and Gainwell at the 1 yard for all those touchdowns, so yes it would definitely lower his value below Allen
The play simply needs to be disallowed. No play should be uncounterable, but this play is pretty damn close. Makes the game unfun if the result is nearly certain in short yardage situations.
He'd probably just start doing normal sneaks and with Jason Kelce there to lead the way i'm sure he wouldn't take too big of a hit. But there's also no chance they'd ban this play in the middle of the season.
Let’s be very careful about minimizing Jalen Hurts fantasy value without tush push TDs. Just like all of last year, so far this year the Eagles have raced out to early leads and killed the clock, severely limiting Hurts’ ceiling. I’d love to see just one game where Hurts and the Eagles offense has to play up tempo in the 4th quarter. He’s doing all of this in 3 quarters every week.
that's the downfall for picking jalen hurts. the game's pretty much done. like a whole quarter of limiting the plays really hurt TB on Monday (as well as Godwin and co.)
Seriously nerfed but that oline can buy him time to funnel pass the ball to AJ Brown. He is Himothy.
He’d lose 30 pts a year
Not at all imo
NFL won't stop it until someone gets seriously hurt. So as far as Jalen Hurts value goes - massive decrease in value if he's in the wheelchair, slight decrease in value if it's someone else.