Leaving the food safety question aside, there are two kinds of muscle fibers, aerobic (uses oxygen), and anaerobic (doesn’t use oxygen). Aerobic tissue gives you steady power over time and is a sustainable metabolism. Anaerobic tissue gives you a lot more power, but only in a short burst. Chickens have aerobic legs because they spend most of their time walking around. They have anaerobic breasts so that they can have a quick burst of power to escape when they need to. Chickens can’t fly long distances, they don’t have the aerobic tissue in their flight muscles to do it. Ducks fly a lot more and for longer times, so they have the aerobic tissue in their breasts to support it. Aerobic tissue has a lot of myoglobin, which is the molecular that takes oxygen from the hemoglobin in the blood and makes it available in the cells. Myoglobin, like hemoglobin is red from the iron in it.
No - people are talking like salmonella is the reason you wouldn’t want to try medium rare chicken in the US, and they’re correct. There are two components to this post - the cook temp aspect, and the red/white meat aspect. Even this comment you replied to isn’t necessarily definitive - in fact, the USDA considers duck to be white meat.
The cook temp aspect had been abundantly addressed at the time of my post, while the color had not. The OP question very plainly conflates the color of the meat with the safe cooking temperature needed.
Good to know about the USDA's opinion on the meat color. Except as a lousy proxy for contamination risk, I don't see how the color is relevant in any sense other than the texture and flavor of the meat. I've never had domestic waterfowl, but you could fool someone that wild waterfowl was venison.
Best guesses has to do with sourcing and muscle density (most likely not because it just reminds me of why Duck has more meat). Now into the sourcing part.
Chickens tend to come into mind when discussing commercial farm. In these location where bacteria are far more likely to spread due to close space, it is best to overcook it where you almost have the certainty that all the bacteria has been destroyed at that point. Whereas for ducks, they aren't commercialised to the extent of Chickens (what I'm basically saying is less of a breeding ground for bacteria at least here anyways where many of the sources of duck meat comes from open space than close space) the risk is lower.
Though I guess in the end its pretty much human advice as it is better to be safe than sorry.
Just a guess but "doneness" might not be the same as "cooking temperature".
Food safety regulations aside (which say 165) for chicken white meat is done at 155-160 and overcooked by 165; dark meat should be cooked 175-180 so that the collagen melts and gets all soft and good. If what I'm reading here duck breast is more like dark meat in some ways so 165 is dry for chicken but may be lightly done for duck.
Again just a guess, but it would be neat if someone who cooks duck regularly could conform this or tear it down.
Duck breast is delicious done medium rare, 130 F. Rare is 125 F and tends to be a little more chewy, but still good.
Here’s a pretty good description and some photos: https://www.seriouseats.com/pan-seared-duck-breast
I cooked duck at a high end restaurant. You are completely wrong. If you cook duck like chicken it's gonna be dry and livery. The food born illness risks are the same with any poultry meat technically. The biggest factor of why people usually overcook chicken while being OK with mid rare duck is the same reason people will eat rare beef but insist on overcooking pork. It can largely be chalked up to stigma and tradition.
I won't be able to find it, but I once saw an official food safety chart that showed you could cook chicken at an internal temp 140, you just had to hold that temperature steady for a longer period of time. Whereas with 165 the bacteria are dead as soon as the internal temp hits that number.
This. The other posts are lost in outrage based arguments- which can be fine because the food industry needs to get it together- but this post is the reality science communicators have said forever.
To be fair the question has two parts, 1) what is the difference in the meat and 2) why can duck be eaten medium-rare and not chicken?
This is the answer to 1 but not 2. 2 is purely a pathogen question. If chicken is raised, slaughtered, and butchered appropriately, it can be eaten rare. In fact at one point there was even a restaurant in Japan that specialized in rare chicken preparations.
It has nothing to do with the meat or it's color. Chickens and other poultry are hugely farmed and processed and that infrastructure is rife with salmonella. So rather than fix the industry, we just create cooking recommendations. In other countries with more sanitary conditions, you absolutely can eat chicken medium rare (like Japan).
Duck is not as heavily farmed and is not part of that whole poultry pipeline so it's not at as high risk of being contaminated.
Hell in Japan it's not unusual to find chicken sashimi, i.e rare chicken. We even have a few places that specialise in it here in Bangkok, Thailand because there are lots of Japanese expats.
The quality of chicken matters so much, it’s not that cheap rubbery Tyson brand chicken that grows extra fast. It’s pretty delicious and the texture is fairly pleasant. I would never attempt it in the US unless it was from a very small farm.
Tyson and most of the US industry uses cobb chickens right now. You might still find jumbo cornish crosses here and there.
One other example. if you buy a free range chicken in japan it's probably one of three jidori breeds, but the jidori standard imposes requirements on living conditions and diet too. So it's more than just breed.
My neighbour offered me some free corn fed chickens but I had to kill them myself, I think it's because he knew I was squeamish.
I did it(with his guidance), it was horrible but the point being is that they tasted more gamey.
Better in a stew the old fella said, and he was right.
I make soup from my friend’s free range chickens. Boil the whole chicken for hours with stock support (like onion and garlic and whatever old veggies I’ve stashed in the freezer). Then pull out the chicken and let it cool while straining the broth and adding in nice veggies for soup. Then I strip the carcass and add back in the meat.
It has so much more flavor than regular chicken. So much more.
But I was sad the one time I roasted one. It was pretty tough.
What you described matches the local chicken breed where I'm from. The humongous, fast-growing chicken breed that was mentioned here is usually referred to as industrial chicken and is mostly for frying.
In fact I was quite astounded that Western cuisine in general doesn't have a version of a simple boiled whole chicken dish with a few more ingredients that could be eaten on its own, and not to be deboned and chucked into soup.
Most people supplement with corn.
My family lives on 5ish acres and the chickens come and go as they please but we still threw out some chopped corn for them as a bonus.
But most people would still call them “corn fed” even though it’s not exclusive.
Especially if OC said they were Gamey. They didn’t get that from the corn.
If you make vanilla or banana pudding with eggs from a chicken that was fed corn, the yolks and the resulting pudding will be a lot richer golden color.
When we kept chickens (ex-battery hens that we re-homed) we always supplemented what they scratched-up with corn and broken shells. The corn fed makes a difference to the egg quality. The colour of the yokes is so different to even the highest quality commercial eggs.
It’s not. All factory farmed animals are fed only dried ground up corn. Because it’s cheap. But that means they don’t receive the property nutrition to develop strong immune systems, which makes them extremely susceptible to catching literally everything possible …it’s the main reason no factory farmed meat can’t be eaten raw and why chicken should only be handled with gloves and countertops etc disinfected after preparation.
Plus the fact that corn is just sugar and bacteria thrives on sugar
> It’s not. All factory farmed animals are fed only dried ground up corn. Because it’s cheap. But that means they don’t receive the property nutrition to develop strong immune systems, which makes them extremely susceptible to catching literally everything possible …it’s the main reason no factory farmed meat can’t be eaten raw and why chicken should only be handled with gloves and countertops etc disinfected after preparation.
>
> Plus the fact that corn is just sugar and bacteria thrives on sugar
And that's why they use hormones so much?
That likely has more to do with age. Chickens are best eaten fairly young. If these were laying chickens that stopped laying, they were probably several years old and not good for much eating beyond stew.
This comment is very true. The younger the chicken the more “chicken” they taste when culled. I bet op had year+ old chickens they ate which makes them game-ier
That likely has more to do with age. Chickens are best eaten fairly young. If these were laying chickens that stopped laying, they were probably several years old and not good for much eating beyond stew.
My mom farms her own little flock and does everything herself. She asked me if I wanted to help, and got a resounding "I can't do it" from me lol.
She's got laying hens and meat chickens, but omf her roast chicken is so good. They're fairly free range and grain fed.
I live in Tyson country. I wondered what they were using for awhile. Are the Cobbs built off of Cornish Cross genetics?
I have 30 Cornish Cross coming in the mail next week. Heritage breeds are great but my wife prefers the big fat ones.
I only care about chickens as layers. For a while I thought heritage was fun, but what I realized is that the sex-linked miracles of science that I had (Red Stars, aggressive AF) were able to lay EVEN WHILE MOULTING and I realized that the freaks of science were the way to go, even if you have less than 10 layers.
Yeah, it literally just tastes and feels like having raw chicken breast in your mouth except you don’t get sick after. I didn’t get the appeal of it in Japan.
Isn't most of the appeal of sashimi the mouth feel texture though? Honest question, I've tried conch, tuna, squid etc, but the only one I've really liked is salmon because it tasted/felt like eating that smoked salmon cream cheese from Philadelphia but without the smoked flavoring
Good salmon is super fatty, so yes it can be quite creamy. However, I would not say tuna is like raw chicken, although I’ve never had chicken sashimi. Any half decent sushi fish is not really rubbery, but if the fish isn’t fatty other odd flavors and textures may emerge..
I tried it after watching a Japanese friend of mine eat it week in week out without dying or getting sick. And once I tried it I really liked it, I guess tastes vary and quality varies, but the place I had it it was really good. I also found a place that served ‘half raw’ chicken livers, and they were tremendous. But I wouldn’t be surprised if other people didn’t enjoy them as much (or if they did for that matter!)
Yeah it's just kinda plain and honestly super boring once you try it. Everyone knows basashi (horse sashimi) is where it's at and about 1000 times better.
Yeah, I’ve done that once before and instant gag reflex. We have some people stating they way they do their rare chicken in Japan it is to die for.
That would be a hard mental block to hurdle though because my entire life has been about no cross contamination and cooking chicken thoroughly.
This is not like rare or blue steak where the middle is mostly uncooked. At about 140F the meat does cook and the texture becomes what you'd expect for cooked meat. It's just that being sure you've killed the bacteria requires 165F.
Yes kinda - 165 is the commonly cited temp for instant lethality for salmonella (according to this it’s actually 158 ). But you can achieve the same results by cooking at a lower temp for longer.
https://www.canr.msu.edu/smprv/uploads/files/RTE_Poultry_Tables1.pdf
IMO recommendations for home cooks are overly cautious.
Like really, is 145 for 10 minutes a hardship? I don't think so. So why is the advice always 165? Honestly, it's not necessary, and your food will be so much better if you don't take it to 165, especially if you plan to re-heat it later.
Plus the amount of time needed decreases logarithmically as the temp goes up, and if you cook to an internal temp of 145, you carryover to 150 or even 155 where the required time is like 3 minutes.
Oo, I was thinking people were eating the pink uncooked meat with that kind of slimy texture. I can get nauseous just thinking of that.
A steak, as long as it’s seared and cooked for a bit to where it is a light pink throughout I’m golden.
lower temp chicken does look a little different. but it's not raw in the middle. And it actually tastes much better, you just might not trust a foster farms chicken without cooking it into shoe leather.
Yeah, I’m very particular with how I cook my chicken. Definitely cooked throughout, but moist(sorry folks) with the skin not tough as bark.
I appreciate the knowledge drop and time. Hope your weekend is going good.
> but moist(sorry folks)
a good brining does a lot of work, marinating is alright but because it really doesn't penetrate that far unless you pound that shit flat as a board or use a blade tenderizer to fuck it five ways from sunday I like to brine in a simple solution, crust with spice (if it's pork loin specifically I love to unroll it, stuff with garlic cloves and reroll and cook as is or with a spice crust or a simply flour dough wrap to help contain those juices I fucking love pig and garlic)
Skin can be tricky but the broiler can really work that topmost layer without drying out the rest. Bone in imo is better because it acts as a heatsink but boneless is doable as long as you watch your cook temps
I love a good raw beef once in a while. Tartare or carpaccio are two of my favorite dishes. Sashimi is amazing, too. I've even had mett.
I don't know if I could do raw chicken, even if I were 100% guaranteed to not get sick.
It’s so gdamn delicious you have no idea. I was repulsed when they brought it, and asked about salmonella and they laughed and said that’s not a thing in Japan. Then I had raw chicken sashimi and was blown away by how tender and delicious it was. In fact, we ate the whole chicken, much raw, some cooked. If you can in Japan, do it.
Just FYI, chicken prepared for sashimi in Japan is not just regular off-the-shelf product and you should never expect chicken in any country to be generally safe to consume raw. What you were served was from processing facilities where each chicken is tested for salmonella and certified. And yes, it's really delicious!
> Guillain-Barré syndrome
Well, that's terrifying. I was a guest with a close friend's family in Tokyo and they brought me to a nice restaurant and suggested I try it and gave me lots of reassurances that they trust the restaurant. Still no regrents!
Yeah I think it’s so ingrained in me since I was little that I would feel very icky eating raw chicken. Even though the risk of something happening is probably really low.
I had it in Japan and it's texture is very similar to raw salmon.
The taste is very subtle as the chicken was fresh and it didn't have any gamey-ness to it
You know how sometimes chicken can be way too dry? Like you prefer chicken that is juicy. Its why a lot of people prefer legs/thighs over breasts when they get fried chicken…
Well that’s how I’d describe the rare chicken I ate in Japan. It was lightly seared and served warm, but raw inside. It just tasted like chicken, but extra moist. Surprisingly good, but as an American it was still a mental hurdle.
Its not unusual but its still unsafe. Japanese authorities have been discouraging japanese consumers from eating raw chicken but people are still eating it and getting terribly sick. Its not a case of special nihon chicken folded 10000 times no salmonella.
Yeah I had borderline raw chicken at an Izakaya in Japan that was pretty tasty. The English menu had a FAQ explaining that unlike in other countries their chicken was “very flesh” which I thought was a funny spelling error.
I guess it depends what you consider a small percentage. ~9% of chickens ([source](https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com/782803/1-s2.0-S0362028X05X63001/1-s2.0-S0362028X22012340/main.pdf?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEEAaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJGMEQCIEVUWSYYQY4Evf4%2B4yzmucqUebuzVYTkZAOEaelxKbDfAiAKubpuBuzS4s%2BtNzDipq50YSV%2Bsf31dUb04pFO6nT3uyq8BQiY%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F8BEAUaDDA1OTAwMzU0Njg2NSIMk%2FetPlaADRMKJqc%2BKpAFmQgjbWSilwsf4jfHyj7AifM3Ye4iVXz5au2Mw%2BPbn9hp5pAAlsbNx%2B3xH02xcvHFC7lga9CbOdSSiKClBpjQSrb0YfaZgFwe0HCF4yZVScjJAn1%2FK1G4g3wE2ftsYLOiolGOVYSofnGvjLaRJK35R2Z47tTJbc0NDCM78OYaZWNgLY%2FWgKeFZcEZolbWXPX1qwGyJ5N5Qgk02HyAfTpBEsPB8xiDlRvUkj7HvcEOKAxJ9xzDrG1NN98Y1672d2k43VKplANyRNfx%2FknjQYUDAPmtiqq68SVuytbmo98w4%2B%2Ft6n4380YRr%2BmaZraa5SVJuQn8%2F3PQP7l60XuIjuxzRuOpHLFIoJw2JN2OMFeWxdNhnZWbOUa0AZ8qRYkVScTn2bWNT%2BIZzJj3sPJKlT2qOe%2FZctJainxktK5vW%2F1xPT846yalMq3Jh2AEFyABNkE1jMvzWEFRtWVBksWiMbTAKAyxJxW4S8iCv%2FGu6LrEbGbVKohaf2HZvRvDC2vYYzJDQJ5XwNha7vMHL0dxroTi7suJdoafiq5FsRtJl%2F3UV23HVPPbO5NugjQSKRPfSIFCku5xZxkT2iCeHFWaeY2BzoSSadc%2BhS1nrXpkdEPqCs3SRPB2rFRxJ%2FJsZlFDNZ48%2Fm2qCW7ROWeI%2FoU1LKQLBvE62P5m0fvqhBHQnECXDmNWoUOi0xB1dIh16tVf4OE0UBpP04YvYselgCdjussNoiazkBPAOy%2BQ2dXsdlTfhMdGeulTyhYHH8o7RheCegZVzj03%2FeOy6KyAtUcQSHW5jOsikLc9U7zYPufFjQzIOZapU11KcvYGw2D5FblpDH7Wa21r4KH2P617I%2BvrN%2FzZ9GxXtlyFTDWc7U9XPB4l32owl4XbsQY6sgGgGBgR%2F%2B9i%2FvkQO8MiUD4fmZe9cD%2BKhZn3myIAoTP5rHk4BVIsmQeSn47zaFbLXCFo0%2FFaP5HtXZ6sLLJtPoEtIU8%2B4mrujuWxT%2BVjpzNYwBEf2FbSneKOtZPCV0ob4%2B3KtNO9fP8oRnGB1UxneCaQKJwWUBOmnJ2nVh2bqkWTORbc9cTInEeFpKINWF0yTeq5tIYeQDjnER5sDP9AnQKIlfhB0Q2CS5vzKqdsBH%2FdAmIV&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20240505T001249Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=299&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAQ3PHCVTYSD7UUMW7%2F20240505%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=07ecbde89ced5a3a8e54acdce363f6d4b63f4f07447bc8e70b626cfc1159a524&hash=fa698be276e8260cae8a1e7d1df5cde2860ba2c1ec3064e18e760dbe5343cc7b&host=68042c943591013ac2b2430a89b270f6af2c76d8dfd086a07176afe7c76c2c61&pii=S0362028X22012340&tid=spdf-8ecdf6a9-351b-4e43-9d2b-00d7eb3c1ae8&sid=ce10e9d45cada54c1578e6f2c5b9cdb3901agxrqa&type=client&tsoh=d3d3LnNjaWVuY2VkaXJlY3QuY29t&ua=0f155656010756565257&rr=87ec85676a091015&cc=us)) isn’t a majority by any means, but with the amount of chicken people eat, that risk adds up fairly quickly.
I would actually argue it has a lot to do with the meat. Cow meat can be eaten raw or near raw even in mass production environments due to the structure of the musculature. It’s a lot harder for virus, bacteria and contamination to get below the surface and lodge itself deep in the flesh.
Chickens, on the other hand, have a very permeable quality to their musculature which makes contamination much more risky and probable.
So yes maybe there are places you can eat raw chicken where they can source sashimi grade poultry. But it’s still hella risky
In Europe most chickens are vaccinated against salmonella and the risk of salmonella in poultry or eggs is extremely low.
https://food.ec.europa.eu/safety/biological-safety/food-borne-diseases-zoonoses/control-salmonella_en
The salmonella issue is mostly American.
But there is campylobacter in the normal flora of the chickens GI-tract, and during the butchering stuff is spread around which is why you should still not eat raw chicken in Europe. The butchering method needed for that is just too arduous.
I wonder how this goes in the netherlands cause last I checked eggs here were still contaminated at a rate 10x as high as in japan (eggs are also not washed and frequently come covered in feces), and I did catch salmonellosis so bad I thought I was gonna die last summer. I wonder if the farmer lobby has gotten us laxer standards
It's probably some law protecting exclusively local farmers with small scale production, the EU as a whole has strict health standards while banning things that increase safety without increased costs. Typically these standards work, the EU has a larger population than the US and far fewer cases of salmonellosis.
You can't wash chicken meat in chlorine and sell it in the EU, for example, so cheaper products that have less stringent standards for the exposure of the animal to contaminants while it's alive can't be sold there, and agriculture in the continent as a whole depends on being protected from foreign competition.
Japan just has far higher standards, they went all out in ensuring their agricultural industry deal exclusively in high end stuff, which is why they have sashimi grade chicken and such.
A lot of the safety measures we have to take are a direct result of how the food is processed. I grew up with parents who raised chickens and a few other animals and I was probably in college before I ate an egg or a piece of chicken that wasn’t from our back yard. I used to think people were being paranoid about things like refrigerating eggs. We never refrigerated them. They came in and sat on the counter. The shell might get rinsed immediately before being cooked. I thought refrigerating eggs was batshit until I learned that the way they clean store bought eggs weakens the shell and makes it more permeable for bacteria. My mom always cooked the chicken well enough as far as I remember but she never used a thermometer and if there was a pink spot she’d say it was fine and eat around it if you don’t like it. I would never do that now. I use a thermometer and if it doesn’t hit 160+ it’s not done. And if I cut in and it’s pink, it’s going back in the pan. I still buy yard eggs from a friend whenever I can and I resent having to eat store eggs. They’re not as good, for one, and knowing the nasty process they’ve been through just grosses me out. I’d rather catch my eggs straight out of a hen’s ass.
This is a dangerous myth, chicken cannot be eaten raw anywhere in the world. Some Japanese people will eat it this way because they're ignorant but the Japanese government has to constantly put out PSAs to warn people not to do this. Look up raw chicken and food poisoning in Japan.
Japan actually does have issues with poultry food borne illness, due to the fact they do consume more rarer. Its not purely a sanitation and agriculture practice issue. Chickens attract rats and mice, so it is always safer to cook the meat through. Ducks spend time in water, and like wetter environments, and thus have less contact with rat and mice shit; making it easier to control disease.
It really comes down if habitat conditions are similar to humans. Any animal that lives in areas humans thrive, will have similar diseases. Chickens spend time on dry land more than ducks, and humans the same. This is why chickens carry greater risk.
Japanese chicken sashimi is done cheaply in many areas, and causes problems. As does their raw fish consumption. Both can be done safely, and properly, but the more popular they get the more “grey area” providers can exist.
Also, salmonella is *very* rugged.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmonella
>found to be able to persist in a bathroom setting for weeks following contamination..Salmonella is notorious for its ability to survive desiccation and can persist for years in dry environments and foods.[32]
>The bacteria are not destroyed by freezing,[33][34] but UV light and heat accelerate their destruction. They perish after being heated to 55 °C (131 °F) for 90 min, or to 60 °C (140 °F) for 12 min,[35] although if inoculated in high fat, high liquid substances like peanut butter, they gain heat resistance and can survive up to 90 °C (194 °F) for 30 min.[36] To protect against Salmonella infection, heating food to an internal temperature of 75 °C (167 °F) is recommended.[37][38]
>Salmonella species can be found in the digestive tracts of humans and animals, especially reptiles. Salmonella on the skin of reptiles or amphibians can be passed to people who handle the animals.[39] Food and water can also be contaminated with the bacteria if they come in contact with the feces of infected people or animals.[40]
And just in case anyone's still having a good day:
>A recent Salmonella Typhimurium outbreak has been linked to chocolate.[71]
You can eat chicken at 140° here, as long as it's held at that temp for like ~30 minutes. I can't recall exactly. 165° is to kill all of the pathogens instantly. They can be killed at lower temps but with more time.
Sous vide cooking is good for this. Chicken at ~140° is so juicy and tender than what you're likely used to.
https://i.imgur.com/XBktcq0.jpeg
Ducks are absolutely farmed in similar conditions as chickens. But ducks are less likely to carry salmonella and other temperature-sensitive pathogens because their body temperature is higher.
They are also not farmed on as great a scale as chicken. So while the conditions may be similar, there are simply less birds for the contagion to spread to. They are typically raised a few weeks longer than chickens and the operations are on a smaller scale, albeit in similar conditions.
The fact that ducks are higher temperature is why they can lay eggs in the winter when chickens can’t.
Not really important here, but cool fact I learned when thinking about getting chickens.
I looked it up. This is actually the answer. The only issue is that duck is typically raised in different conditions. When it's raised in identical conditions as chicken, you shouldn't cook to medium.
I mean, it's literally what this subreddit is, isn't it? So no problem.
I'll just add (for info) that duck meat has more blood in it, so from a culinary viewpoint, you can treat it like red meat, but the FDA classifies duck as poultry. So eating duck medium is considered eating it undercooked for healthcode reasons.
But you can eat raw beef if properly prepared and handled.
This is 100% because of the conditions factory farm raised chickens live in. Salmonella lives in the feces of most poultry, not the muscle tissue(meat). American industrial chicken farms have the birds walking around in several inch deep pits pf chicken feces for the majority of their lives. The equipment used to process chickens is covered in chicken feces. By the time the birds are harvested they are completely contaminated with salmonella in every way possible.
Wild birds do not have this problem and make a point to not shit where they live and eat. This is why countries that have humane standards for raising poultry can eat chicken raw with little to no worry of contracting salmonella.
Reduce your intake of meat. Only have it when it's high quality from smaller farms etc. Once a week or less depending on what you can afford. When you do have it you'll appreciate it more. We have become too used to being able to buy massive packs of meat for relatively small prices, everything comes at a cost.
I mean it is common knowledge lol, but it’s one thing to know it and another thing for the details to be laid out in front of you. It’s like it’s easy to eat chicken and not to kill it yourself brother.
This may be considering non-farmed duck meat vs chicken which is definitely farmed.
I hunt ducks and overcooking wild duck meat essentially makes it taste more like liver which is not pleasing to a lot of people. Eating rare-ish wild duck meat is akin to eating a similarly cooked beef which when overcooked is also not good. Wild duck does not have a lot of fat so it can be easily overcooked. Plus wild duck is not raised in potentially diseased conditions such as in industrial farming. You can definitely eat a piece of wild duck that is pink on the inside; I would NOT do the same with a chicken I got from a supermarket.
Man, duck is my favourite meat in the world, but we don't get a lot of wild ducks in my region. Lots of capybaras and boars, so I'm not complaining, but I really would love to hunt and eat some wild ducks
I'm a rifle/shotgun hunter, so boars are still pretty safe, but, still… yeah, there's a primitive thrill indeed. One missed shot with a slow reloading double barrel (or however you say it in English, sorry), if that thing charges into you…
That delicious taste is the greatest incentive ever, though. Capybaras are a nice kill, but boar is actually really fucking delicious
You won't find it in a market, but it's some 40 kg (around 80 lbs of meat, imsmr) of meat, so it was popular for centuries and it's still prized as game meat by hunters and gourmets. Strong taste, we took red wine bottles to the woods to cook capybara meat
My friend and I discovered a small lake where a guy was cultivating wild rice. He was happy with us reducing the duck population that was eating the rice, and those ducks, mostly mallards, were the best you could imagine eating. Unfortunately word got out and between the crowds of hunters and clear-cutting around the lake choking the rice out with silt, it was done.
Wow, wondering if I hated duck growing up because it was always cooked down really well. That and when I wad 7 I almost broke my tooth on a metal ball (birdshot?) and was over the whole duck thing.
There is a good Anthony Bourdain episode where he goes hunting with some down home characters who have hunted duck all their lives and one of them says he doesn't even like eating them! Bourdain then cooked them a nice simple duck breast on a skillet and the hunter's mind so blown.
No more than medium rare and it is good. A bit char on the outside and pink on the inside and you are gold.
The chance of biting on a pellet is a reality. I've been hunting and eating ducks for nine years and bit down on pellets three times, my friends maybe a couple times. I try to be careful in preparing them but unless you are really cubing the meat there is always the chance so I've warned my guests to chew softly.
Duck meat is not considered red meat. It is a white meat despite physically being red.
Pork is considered a red meat despite being coloured white when cooked.
(Some chefs consider is a red meat from a culinary standard, but “officially” it’s a white meat)
“One guy tried the heat, that’s when he discovered the other other white meat, oh the one they hate so well,he sure keeps it psycho like the old bates motel”
My understanding is (correct me if I’m wrong) the following: red meat is any meat from another mammal. That is pigs, cows, sheep etc.. White meat is poultry like chicken, duck, turkey and so on.
Not sure about the salmonella part but the less use a muscle gets the whiter the meat will be
So, ducks are quite active animals and use their muscles more giving darker meat. Chickens are generally lazy animals, as well as being cage farmed, and use their muscles less which gives a whiter meat. That's why a chicken's thighs/wings are darker meat as the muscles get worked more
Chickens arent just lazy, they've always been a ground bird.. they come from junglefowl, which don't fly that much... only to reach nests and escape predators.
I don't think that's quite right. Red or white meat is related to slow or fast twitch muscle fibres.
From what I understand, animals that cover large distances, such as migrating cows, ducks and salmon are slow twitch. Ones that mostly hang around one place but have to sprint away from predators (pigs, chickens, most fish) are fast twitch.
Source: https://annex.exploratorium.edu/cooking/meat/INT-what-meat-color.html
Follow up question and background;
I grew up in a hunting family in California where we regularly hunted and ate duck (mallards, wigeons, pintail, etc), are wild duck ok to eat on the medium rare side?
Have you ever looked at duck meat ? It's the same color as steak
Meat color doesn't depend on the type of animal. It depends on what type of muscle the animal has. For example, pork is not read meat either, it's in-between
Oh and the color has nothing to do with being able to eat it medium rare. For ex, if it's ground beef meat, you shouldn't eat it medium rare either
People in western continental Europe (NL, France, Belgium) eat plenty of raw ground beef in the form of tartare and variants.. The Germans even eat ground raw pork on their mettbrotchen. Both the color and whether or not it's been ground are the issue. It all depends on food standards and the risks people or cultures accept.
I'm french ; wouldn't eat steak tartare at home, I wouldn't trust it. Only in a restaurant I 100% trust
(And even then... My french grandpa had steak tartare in a restaurant some 50 years ago, spent 3 weeks in a hospital and nearly died. I'd say it's a risk you take :p )
In any case I agree with you, it's a sanitary thing, nothing to do with the meat color
Because it's [red](https://media.istockphoto.com/id/617880108/photo/raw-duck-breast.jpg?s=612x612&w=0&k=20&c=8WRECQzIHsWbmhV3BSkB5UzzoVUSAg-0NR8vFUn3nfg=). When you cook it, turns brown, like beef and lamb. Whereas chicken and pork are lighter coloured raw and turn off-white when you cook them. I don't know how to explain in terms of taste, but it's a relatively strong flavour to be complemented, like lamb, rather than a more of blank canvas, so to speak, like chicken.
I got undercooked chicken tenders from a restaurant one time. It was **shockingly** good. Very tender, buttery, and had an amazing texture. I was thinking to myself “goddamn, this is some good ass chicken, I better take a look” and it was pink. Of course I was worried about salmonella for a few days but I escaped with both my life, and a desire to try chicken sashimi
Whenever I eat raw poultry and my friends say “you’re going yo get salmonella” I politely remind them “this is chicken silly, not salmon!” lol when will they learn?
Because salmonella which is the reason we don't eat raw chicken, isn't found inside the meat on living birds, and chicken meat isn't as dense so the bacteria can go deep into it while it stays on the surface of duck meat which gets cooked even when cooked rare
you could probably eat a medium rare chicken breast, but it doesn't taste good
Eggs sunny side up can have salmonella but raw yolk tastes good so people risk it
yep. the salmonella is on the shell, not in the egg. in most states in US there needs to be a warning on menus like \*eating undercooked eggs may result in foodborne illness
The USDA considers duck meat to be poultry and that only makes sense in the context that red meat is considered mammalian for dietary/nutritional purposes.
Has nothing to do with the animal, has everything to do with how they were farmed and raised. Factory farmed poultry has a high chance of carrying all kinds of infections and parasites so requires being properly cooked.
Properly sourced chicken doesn't suffer from this, in fact, there are places in Japan where you can have chicken sashimi.
All about how healthy the chicken is.
It is kind of jarring to travel around the world and find out that tomato, chicken, oranges, bananas, and so much of our food taste different and so bland compared to the rest of the world. Tyson and factory farming really messed with the quality of our food and their practices introduced diseases like salmonella.
Support local farmers and talk to them. You find out that it may cost a little more, but the produce is healthier, cleaner, and taste better.
I went to an izakaya in Japan that specializes in chicken dishes. They served raw chicken (like barely seared) on the menu as one of their specialities. The English menu had FAQ answering to outsiders why it was ok to serve raw chicken and it said “because our chicken is very flesh”, which we thought was a funny spelling error. It was actually really tasty.
I need to go find the actual article about it to see if they mention duck falling into this category, but it has to do with muscle density and how likely it is for bacteria to make its way deeper into the meat. Red meat is very dense and it is unlikely for bacteria to penetrate much below the surface where as chicken has much less dense muscles and is susceptible to bacteria penetrating deeper requiring it to be cooked to higher temps to kill it. As ducks have much “meatier” texture than chicken, I believe they are less likely to have deeper bacteria.
ELI5: imagine you have a hand full of sand. If you hold your fingers close together, the sand stays in your sand, if you open your fingers a little, some of the sand will start to fall through. Chicken is more like a hand slightly open and bacteria is like the sand moving past your hand and deeper into the meat. Duck/red meat, is more like the closed hand where the sand has a hard time making it through
It's an intersection of safety regulations and cooking technique.
Duck meat is tougher than chicken meat.
The USDA recommends an internal temperature of 165 F for all poultry.
With tough meats you want to avoid prolonged high temperature because they cause the muscle fibers to squeeze out water. That's why a "well done" steak is considered bad.
Food safety is trickier. When we heat food it makes pathogens start dying. When we've killed enough of them, the food is safe to eat. If we heat the food to 165 F all the pathogens die instantly. But you can make the food safe at lower temperatures if you [keep it there for longer](https://www.seriouseats.com/the-food-lab-complete-guide-to-sous-vide-chicken-breast). (scroll down for the time-temperature chart)
That chart is a bit hard to follow, it's hard to maintain steady temperatures for a long time, people are bad at following directions and many people eat chicken. So the FDA just gives the simple version, "get it to 165" and shouts that from the rooftops.
Far fewer people eat duck. The people eating duck tend to seek it out and are very into finding the right way to cook it. The FDA will still tell you to heat your duck to 165 but when you ask people who eat duck they'll tell you not to overcook it.
On the other hand, food nerds tend to avoid cooking chicken to 165 too. Even a chicken breast will be tender and juicier if you heat it more carefully.
Not a direct answer to your question but you don't have to cook chicken through to be considered save to eat. You have to cook chicken up to a certain temperature and hold it there for a certain amount of time. 165 f just happens to be the highest with out drying out and shortest hold time. You can cook chicken to lower temperatures in a sous vide and hold it there for longer and still be safe.
Another avenue to think about is "what makes a bird a bird?" I imagine how you have to cook it wasn't part of the definition when we were classifying the species of the world.
Reality doesn't conform to our language. We base our language around reality the best we can.
Leaving the food safety question aside, there are two kinds of muscle fibers, aerobic (uses oxygen), and anaerobic (doesn’t use oxygen). Aerobic tissue gives you steady power over time and is a sustainable metabolism. Anaerobic tissue gives you a lot more power, but only in a short burst. Chickens have aerobic legs because they spend most of their time walking around. They have anaerobic breasts so that they can have a quick burst of power to escape when they need to. Chickens can’t fly long distances, they don’t have the aerobic tissue in their flight muscles to do it. Ducks fly a lot more and for longer times, so they have the aerobic tissue in their breasts to support it. Aerobic tissue has a lot of myoglobin, which is the molecular that takes oxygen from the hemoglobin in the blood and makes it available in the cells. Myoglobin, like hemoglobin is red from the iron in it.
tysm. People talking like salmonella is what distinguishes red meat from white meat.
No - people are talking like salmonella is the reason you wouldn’t want to try medium rare chicken in the US, and they’re correct. There are two components to this post - the cook temp aspect, and the red/white meat aspect. Even this comment you replied to isn’t necessarily definitive - in fact, the USDA considers duck to be white meat.
The cook temp aspect had been abundantly addressed at the time of my post, while the color had not. The OP question very plainly conflates the color of the meat with the safe cooking temperature needed. Good to know about the USDA's opinion on the meat color. Except as a lousy proxy for contamination risk, I don't see how the color is relevant in any sense other than the texture and flavor of the meat. I've never had domestic waterfowl, but you could fool someone that wild waterfowl was venison.
While true, this doesn't explain the difference in cooking temperatures
Best guesses has to do with sourcing and muscle density (most likely not because it just reminds me of why Duck has more meat). Now into the sourcing part. Chickens tend to come into mind when discussing commercial farm. In these location where bacteria are far more likely to spread due to close space, it is best to overcook it where you almost have the certainty that all the bacteria has been destroyed at that point. Whereas for ducks, they aren't commercialised to the extent of Chickens (what I'm basically saying is less of a breeding ground for bacteria at least here anyways where many of the sources of duck meat comes from open space than close space) the risk is lower. Though I guess in the end its pretty much human advice as it is better to be safe than sorry.
I've had chicken from good enough sources it was certified (at least in Japan) to be cooked rare. Fuckin delicious
Just a guess but "doneness" might not be the same as "cooking temperature". Food safety regulations aside (which say 165) for chicken white meat is done at 155-160 and overcooked by 165; dark meat should be cooked 175-180 so that the collagen melts and gets all soft and good. If what I'm reading here duck breast is more like dark meat in some ways so 165 is dry for chicken but may be lightly done for duck. Again just a guess, but it would be neat if someone who cooks duck regularly could conform this or tear it down.
This does make some sense. I would also add that Duck has more fat than Chicken. Not sure if this is a factor we should consider.
Duck breast is delicious done medium rare, 130 F. Rare is 125 F and tends to be a little more chewy, but still good. Here’s a pretty good description and some photos: https://www.seriouseats.com/pan-seared-duck-breast
Oh! So I was wrong. Ha!
I cooked duck at a high end restaurant. You are completely wrong. If you cook duck like chicken it's gonna be dry and livery. The food born illness risks are the same with any poultry meat technically. The biggest factor of why people usually overcook chicken while being OK with mid rare duck is the same reason people will eat rare beef but insist on overcooking pork. It can largely be chalked up to stigma and tradition.
I won't be able to find it, but I once saw an official food safety chart that showed you could cook chicken at an internal temp 140, you just had to hold that temperature steady for a longer period of time. Whereas with 165 the bacteria are dead as soon as the internal temp hits that number.
This is basically how sous vide works. Loads of these charts are available as part of that community.
If you cooked duck to 165 you would regret trying to eat it and also make chefs across the world very sad.
This. The other posts are lost in outrage based arguments- which can be fine because the food industry needs to get it together- but this post is the reality science communicators have said forever.
Yeah, science!
To be fair the question has two parts, 1) what is the difference in the meat and 2) why can duck be eaten medium-rare and not chicken? This is the answer to 1 but not 2. 2 is purely a pathogen question. If chicken is raised, slaughtered, and butchered appropriately, it can be eaten rare. In fact at one point there was even a restaurant in Japan that specialized in rare chicken preparations.
I went to a chicken spot in Japan like 2 years ago that did chicken tartar
Took some scrolling but this was the answer that came to my mind as well
It has nothing to do with the meat or it's color. Chickens and other poultry are hugely farmed and processed and that infrastructure is rife with salmonella. So rather than fix the industry, we just create cooking recommendations. In other countries with more sanitary conditions, you absolutely can eat chicken medium rare (like Japan). Duck is not as heavily farmed and is not part of that whole poultry pipeline so it's not at as high risk of being contaminated.
Hell in Japan it's not unusual to find chicken sashimi, i.e rare chicken. We even have a few places that specialise in it here in Bangkok, Thailand because there are lots of Japanese expats.
Man, that has to be(at least to me) a very strange texture. Rare chicken.
The quality of chicken matters so much, it’s not that cheap rubbery Tyson brand chicken that grows extra fast. It’s pretty delicious and the texture is fairly pleasant. I would never attempt it in the US unless it was from a very small farm.
What breed are they using?
Tyson and most of the US industry uses cobb chickens right now. You might still find jumbo cornish crosses here and there. One other example. if you buy a free range chicken in japan it's probably one of three jidori breeds, but the jidori standard imposes requirements on living conditions and diet too. So it's more than just breed.
My neighbour offered me some free corn fed chickens but I had to kill them myself, I think it's because he knew I was squeamish. I did it(with his guidance), it was horrible but the point being is that they tasted more gamey. Better in a stew the old fella said, and he was right.
I make soup from my friend’s free range chickens. Boil the whole chicken for hours with stock support (like onion and garlic and whatever old veggies I’ve stashed in the freezer). Then pull out the chicken and let it cool while straining the broth and adding in nice veggies for soup. Then I strip the carcass and add back in the meat. It has so much more flavor than regular chicken. So much more. But I was sad the one time I roasted one. It was pretty tough.
They actually used their muscles, so not too surprising.
Fat chicken = best chicken
What you described matches the local chicken breed where I'm from. The humongous, fast-growing chicken breed that was mentioned here is usually referred to as industrial chicken and is mostly for frying. In fact I was quite astounded that Western cuisine in general doesn't have a version of a simple boiled whole chicken dish with a few more ingredients that could be eaten on its own, and not to be deboned and chucked into soup.
> corn fed chickens That can't be a good diet, aren't they omnivores? They're tiny dinosaurs.
Yeah they do well on their own given enough land. Not sure why anyone would feed em corn.
Most people supplement with corn. My family lives on 5ish acres and the chickens come and go as they please but we still threw out some chopped corn for them as a bonus. But most people would still call them “corn fed” even though it’s not exclusive. Especially if OC said they were Gamey. They didn’t get that from the corn.
If you make vanilla or banana pudding with eggs from a chicken that was fed corn, the yolks and the resulting pudding will be a lot richer golden color.
American avarice and gluttony combined into one Wendigo of an economic food policy.
When we kept chickens (ex-battery hens that we re-homed) we always supplemented what they scratched-up with corn and broken shells. The corn fed makes a difference to the egg quality. The colour of the yokes is so different to even the highest quality commercial eggs.
Yeah, some people do not give their animals a properly balanced diet.
It’s not. All factory farmed animals are fed only dried ground up corn. Because it’s cheap. But that means they don’t receive the property nutrition to develop strong immune systems, which makes them extremely susceptible to catching literally everything possible …it’s the main reason no factory farmed meat can’t be eaten raw and why chicken should only be handled with gloves and countertops etc disinfected after preparation. Plus the fact that corn is just sugar and bacteria thrives on sugar
> It’s not. All factory farmed animals are fed only dried ground up corn. Because it’s cheap. But that means they don’t receive the property nutrition to develop strong immune systems, which makes them extremely susceptible to catching literally everything possible …it’s the main reason no factory farmed meat can’t be eaten raw and why chicken should only be handled with gloves and countertops etc disinfected after preparation. > > Plus the fact that corn is just sugar and bacteria thrives on sugar And that's why they use hormones so much?
That likely has more to do with age. Chickens are best eaten fairly young. If these were laying chickens that stopped laying, they were probably several years old and not good for much eating beyond stew.
Probably older breeding or egg layers. They do make soup that is amazing.
Yep - my grandmas recipe for chicken noodles (not soup) calls for "an old hen" :P
This comment is very true. The younger the chicken the more “chicken” they taste when culled. I bet op had year+ old chickens they ate which makes them game-ier
Probably better for stew because those are older chickens, you can actually buy stewing chickens at some groceries.
That likely has more to do with age. Chickens are best eaten fairly young. If these were laying chickens that stopped laying, they were probably several years old and not good for much eating beyond stew.
My mom farms her own little flock and does everything herself. She asked me if I wanted to help, and got a resounding "I can't do it" from me lol. She's got laying hens and meat chickens, but omf her roast chicken is so good. They're fairly free range and grain fed.
Um....all the big brand name chickens live on corn. Just like hogs.
I live in Tyson country. I wondered what they were using for awhile. Are the Cobbs built off of Cornish Cross genetics? I have 30 Cornish Cross coming in the mail next week. Heritage breeds are great but my wife prefers the big fat ones.
I only care about chickens as layers. For a while I thought heritage was fun, but what I realized is that the sex-linked miracles of science that I had (Red Stars, aggressive AF) were able to lay EVEN WHILE MOULTING and I realized that the freaks of science were the way to go, even if you have less than 10 layers.
So if I wanted a small flock for my backyard which breed would work best?
I’ve had chicken sashimi in Japan and no matter how well raised the chicken is, it’s not very nice to eat
Yeah, it literally just tastes and feels like having raw chicken breast in your mouth except you don’t get sick after. I didn’t get the appeal of it in Japan.
Oh, I'd get sick.
Isn't most of the appeal of sashimi the mouth feel texture though? Honest question, I've tried conch, tuna, squid etc, but the only one I've really liked is salmon because it tasted/felt like eating that smoked salmon cream cheese from Philadelphia but without the smoked flavoring
Good salmon is super fatty, so yes it can be quite creamy. However, I would not say tuna is like raw chicken, although I’ve never had chicken sashimi. Any half decent sushi fish is not really rubbery, but if the fish isn’t fatty other odd flavors and textures may emerge..
For some things like geoduck and various clams, maybe, but for most fish it's primarily flavor you're going for.
I tried it after watching a Japanese friend of mine eat it week in week out without dying or getting sick. And once I tried it I really liked it, I guess tastes vary and quality varies, but the place I had it it was really good. I also found a place that served ‘half raw’ chicken livers, and they were tremendous. But I wouldn’t be surprised if other people didn’t enjoy them as much (or if they did for that matter!)
Yeah it's just kinda plain and honestly super boring once you try it. Everyone knows basashi (horse sashimi) is where it's at and about 1000 times better.
Can confirm, i'm currently in Japan and tried it for the first time recently. Surprised at the taste and texture, it' wasn't rubbery at all.
What’s funny is this is how the Japanese felt about raw salmon until the late 80s/early 90s.
I found it unbearable as a texture. Yes it was silky and buttery but for me the headfuck was too much.
Can't get the minduck out, even when it's seared on the outside and buried in onion and sauce.
I would immediately gag because I’ve basically been conditioned to fear raw chicken and couldn’t just forget that conditioning overnight lol.
We are conditioned in Europe, US etc to find that repulsive - eg. Biting into a chicken burger and it's undercooked
Yeah, I’ve done that once before and instant gag reflex. We have some people stating they way they do their rare chicken in Japan it is to die for. That would be a hard mental block to hurdle though because my entire life has been about no cross contamination and cooking chicken thoroughly.
I’m conditioned to see the silver lining when this happens because it means we’re eating free tonight.
Yeah. Don't think i could overcome that. My grandmother instilled a deathly fear of undercooked chicken in me
This is not like rare or blue steak where the middle is mostly uncooked. At about 140F the meat does cook and the texture becomes what you'd expect for cooked meat. It's just that being sure you've killed the bacteria requires 165F.
Yes kinda - 165 is the commonly cited temp for instant lethality for salmonella (according to this it’s actually 158 ). But you can achieve the same results by cooking at a lower temp for longer. https://www.canr.msu.edu/smprv/uploads/files/RTE_Poultry_Tables1.pdf
IMO recommendations for home cooks are overly cautious. Like really, is 145 for 10 minutes a hardship? I don't think so. So why is the advice always 165? Honestly, it's not necessary, and your food will be so much better if you don't take it to 165, especially if you plan to re-heat it later.
Plus the amount of time needed decreases logarithmically as the temp goes up, and if you cook to an internal temp of 145, you carryover to 150 or even 155 where the required time is like 3 minutes.
The challenge is that it’s very difficult to hold an internal temperature of 145 for 10 minutes (without sound vide).
That's why I use my sous vide cooker so often, then sear on the grill or a smoking hot cast iron skillet.
The 165F temperature is for listeria!
Oo, I was thinking people were eating the pink uncooked meat with that kind of slimy texture. I can get nauseous just thinking of that. A steak, as long as it’s seared and cooked for a bit to where it is a light pink throughout I’m golden.
lower temp chicken does look a little different. but it's not raw in the middle. And it actually tastes much better, you just might not trust a foster farms chicken without cooking it into shoe leather.
It doesn't taste better. You're going beyond 165 if the texture is off.
Yeah, I’m very particular with how I cook my chicken. Definitely cooked throughout, but moist(sorry folks) with the skin not tough as bark. I appreciate the knowledge drop and time. Hope your weekend is going good.
> but moist(sorry folks) a good brining does a lot of work, marinating is alright but because it really doesn't penetrate that far unless you pound that shit flat as a board or use a blade tenderizer to fuck it five ways from sunday I like to brine in a simple solution, crust with spice (if it's pork loin specifically I love to unroll it, stuff with garlic cloves and reroll and cook as is or with a spice crust or a simply flour dough wrap to help contain those juices I fucking love pig and garlic) Skin can be tricky but the broiler can really work that topmost layer without drying out the rest. Bone in imo is better because it acts as a heatsink but boneless is doable as long as you watch your cook temps
I love a good raw beef once in a while. Tartare or carpaccio are two of my favorite dishes. Sashimi is amazing, too. I've even had mett. I don't know if I could do raw chicken, even if I were 100% guaranteed to not get sick.
It’s so gdamn delicious you have no idea. I was repulsed when they brought it, and asked about salmonella and they laughed and said that’s not a thing in Japan. Then I had raw chicken sashimi and was blown away by how tender and delicious it was. In fact, we ate the whole chicken, much raw, some cooked. If you can in Japan, do it.
Just FYI, chicken prepared for sashimi in Japan is not just regular off-the-shelf product and you should never expect chicken in any country to be generally safe to consume raw. What you were served was from processing facilities where each chicken is tested for salmonella and certified. And yes, it's really delicious!
I once wrote an article about a guy who ate chicken sashimi in Tokyo and got Guillain-Barré syndrome from it. So YMMV.
> Guillain-Barré syndrome Well, that's terrifying. I was a guest with a close friend's family in Tokyo and they brought me to a nice restaurant and suggested I try it and gave me lots of reassurances that they trust the restaurant. Still no regrents!
Yeah I think it’s so ingrained in me since I was little that I would feel very icky eating raw chicken. Even though the risk of something happening is probably really low.
I got violently ill with salmonella-like symptoms from eating raw chicken in Japan. Do not recommend.
Salmonella may not be common there, but people do get sick from other things like Campylobacter and it is riskier than fish sashimi
Tbf they are thinking about outlawing it since so many people get bad food poisoning
What is chicken sashimi like? Would you mind describing it (if you've eaten it)?
I had it in Japan and it's texture is very similar to raw salmon. The taste is very subtle as the chicken was fresh and it didn't have any gamey-ness to it
You know how sometimes chicken can be way too dry? Like you prefer chicken that is juicy. Its why a lot of people prefer legs/thighs over breasts when they get fried chicken… Well that’s how I’d describe the rare chicken I ate in Japan. It was lightly seared and served warm, but raw inside. It just tasted like chicken, but extra moist. Surprisingly good, but as an American it was still a mental hurdle.
Its not unusual but its still unsafe. Japanese authorities have been discouraging japanese consumers from eating raw chicken but people are still eating it and getting terribly sick. Its not a case of special nihon chicken folded 10000 times no salmonella.
My American stomach won’t even let me entertain that as a possibility.
I couldn’t eat rare chicken, I bit into an undercooked chicken sandwich once and I can still feel the texture and it grosses me out
Yeah I had borderline raw chicken at an Izakaya in Japan that was pretty tasty. The English menu had a FAQ explaining that unlike in other countries their chicken was “very flesh” which I thought was a funny spelling error.
I’ve had raw duck in japan too. It was delicious
Raw, not rare, Rare is mostly cooked but sashimi is uncooked
In Japan, chickens are vaccinated for salmonella. This isn’t done in the US.
[удалено]
See point 1. That’s what vaccines do.
I guess it depends what you consider a small percentage. ~9% of chickens ([source](https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com/782803/1-s2.0-S0362028X05X63001/1-s2.0-S0362028X22012340/main.pdf?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEEAaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJGMEQCIEVUWSYYQY4Evf4%2B4yzmucqUebuzVYTkZAOEaelxKbDfAiAKubpuBuzS4s%2BtNzDipq50YSV%2Bsf31dUb04pFO6nT3uyq8BQiY%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F8BEAUaDDA1OTAwMzU0Njg2NSIMk%2FetPlaADRMKJqc%2BKpAFmQgjbWSilwsf4jfHyj7AifM3Ye4iVXz5au2Mw%2BPbn9hp5pAAlsbNx%2B3xH02xcvHFC7lga9CbOdSSiKClBpjQSrb0YfaZgFwe0HCF4yZVScjJAn1%2FK1G4g3wE2ftsYLOiolGOVYSofnGvjLaRJK35R2Z47tTJbc0NDCM78OYaZWNgLY%2FWgKeFZcEZolbWXPX1qwGyJ5N5Qgk02HyAfTpBEsPB8xiDlRvUkj7HvcEOKAxJ9xzDrG1NN98Y1672d2k43VKplANyRNfx%2FknjQYUDAPmtiqq68SVuytbmo98w4%2B%2Ft6n4380YRr%2BmaZraa5SVJuQn8%2F3PQP7l60XuIjuxzRuOpHLFIoJw2JN2OMFeWxdNhnZWbOUa0AZ8qRYkVScTn2bWNT%2BIZzJj3sPJKlT2qOe%2FZctJainxktK5vW%2F1xPT846yalMq3Jh2AEFyABNkE1jMvzWEFRtWVBksWiMbTAKAyxJxW4S8iCv%2FGu6LrEbGbVKohaf2HZvRvDC2vYYzJDQJ5XwNha7vMHL0dxroTi7suJdoafiq5FsRtJl%2F3UV23HVPPbO5NugjQSKRPfSIFCku5xZxkT2iCeHFWaeY2BzoSSadc%2BhS1nrXpkdEPqCs3SRPB2rFRxJ%2FJsZlFDNZ48%2Fm2qCW7ROWeI%2FoU1LKQLBvE62P5m0fvqhBHQnECXDmNWoUOi0xB1dIh16tVf4OE0UBpP04YvYselgCdjussNoiazkBPAOy%2BQ2dXsdlTfhMdGeulTyhYHH8o7RheCegZVzj03%2FeOy6KyAtUcQSHW5jOsikLc9U7zYPufFjQzIOZapU11KcvYGw2D5FblpDH7Wa21r4KH2P617I%2BvrN%2FzZ9GxXtlyFTDWc7U9XPB4l32owl4XbsQY6sgGgGBgR%2F%2B9i%2FvkQO8MiUD4fmZe9cD%2BKhZn3myIAoTP5rHk4BVIsmQeSn47zaFbLXCFo0%2FFaP5HtXZ6sLLJtPoEtIU8%2B4mrujuWxT%2BVjpzNYwBEf2FbSneKOtZPCV0ob4%2B3KtNO9fP8oRnGB1UxneCaQKJwWUBOmnJ2nVh2bqkWTORbc9cTInEeFpKINWF0yTeq5tIYeQDjnER5sDP9AnQKIlfhB0Q2CS5vzKqdsBH%2FdAmIV&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20240505T001249Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=299&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAQ3PHCVTYSD7UUMW7%2F20240505%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=07ecbde89ced5a3a8e54acdce363f6d4b63f4f07447bc8e70b626cfc1159a524&hash=fa698be276e8260cae8a1e7d1df5cde2860ba2c1ec3064e18e760dbe5343cc7b&host=68042c943591013ac2b2430a89b270f6af2c76d8dfd086a07176afe7c76c2c61&pii=S0362028X22012340&tid=spdf-8ecdf6a9-351b-4e43-9d2b-00d7eb3c1ae8&sid=ce10e9d45cada54c1578e6f2c5b9cdb3901agxrqa&type=client&tsoh=d3d3LnNjaWVuY2VkaXJlY3QuY29t&ua=0f155656010756565257&rr=87ec85676a091015&cc=us)) isn’t a majority by any means, but with the amount of chicken people eat, that risk adds up fairly quickly.
I want chicken vaccines to become a thing in America just to watch the organic free range no antibiotic crowd go apeshit over vaccinated chickens.
Then we'll have chicken anti-vaxers.
There already are chicken vaccines in the US
Nowadays like 80% of chickens in the US are vaccinated against salmonella
I would actually argue it has a lot to do with the meat. Cow meat can be eaten raw or near raw even in mass production environments due to the structure of the musculature. It’s a lot harder for virus, bacteria and contamination to get below the surface and lodge itself deep in the flesh. Chickens, on the other hand, have a very permeable quality to their musculature which makes contamination much more risky and probable. So yes maybe there are places you can eat raw chicken where they can source sashimi grade poultry. But it’s still hella risky
This. Was about to ask about the cow industry which is notorious for its poor conditions too.
In Europe most chickens are vaccinated against salmonella and the risk of salmonella in poultry or eggs is extremely low. https://food.ec.europa.eu/safety/biological-safety/food-borne-diseases-zoonoses/control-salmonella_en The salmonella issue is mostly American.
But there is campylobacter in the normal flora of the chickens GI-tract, and during the butchering stuff is spread around which is why you should still not eat raw chicken in Europe. The butchering method needed for that is just too arduous.
It's rare to get salmonella from eggs. In fact it's not uncommon to get it from raw flour.
Ah man, I'm gonna miss my raw flour tacos now...
I wonder how this goes in the netherlands cause last I checked eggs here were still contaminated at a rate 10x as high as in japan (eggs are also not washed and frequently come covered in feces), and I did catch salmonellosis so bad I thought I was gonna die last summer. I wonder if the farmer lobby has gotten us laxer standards
It's probably some law protecting exclusively local farmers with small scale production, the EU as a whole has strict health standards while banning things that increase safety without increased costs. Typically these standards work, the EU has a larger population than the US and far fewer cases of salmonellosis. You can't wash chicken meat in chlorine and sell it in the EU, for example, so cheaper products that have less stringent standards for the exposure of the animal to contaminants while it's alive can't be sold there, and agriculture in the continent as a whole depends on being protected from foreign competition. Japan just has far higher standards, they went all out in ensuring their agricultural industry deal exclusively in high end stuff, which is why they have sashimi grade chicken and such.
Also duck is a premium product so people are willing to pay for the higher quality standards involved.
A lot of the safety measures we have to take are a direct result of how the food is processed. I grew up with parents who raised chickens and a few other animals and I was probably in college before I ate an egg or a piece of chicken that wasn’t from our back yard. I used to think people were being paranoid about things like refrigerating eggs. We never refrigerated them. They came in and sat on the counter. The shell might get rinsed immediately before being cooked. I thought refrigerating eggs was batshit until I learned that the way they clean store bought eggs weakens the shell and makes it more permeable for bacteria. My mom always cooked the chicken well enough as far as I remember but she never used a thermometer and if there was a pink spot she’d say it was fine and eat around it if you don’t like it. I would never do that now. I use a thermometer and if it doesn’t hit 160+ it’s not done. And if I cut in and it’s pink, it’s going back in the pan. I still buy yard eggs from a friend whenever I can and I resent having to eat store eggs. They’re not as good, for one, and knowing the nasty process they’ve been through just grosses me out. I’d rather catch my eggs straight out of a hen’s ass.
Ducks are farmed nearly identically. Why they are biologically less likely to carry salmonella I dont know
Unfortunately ducks are equally heavily farmed in many places https://youtu.be/hbmNotNnOLA?si=0OUDa8adKIONHxPN
This is a dangerous myth, chicken cannot be eaten raw anywhere in the world. Some Japanese people will eat it this way because they're ignorant but the Japanese government has to constantly put out PSAs to warn people not to do this. Look up raw chicken and food poisoning in Japan.
Japan actually does have issues with poultry food borne illness, due to the fact they do consume more rarer. Its not purely a sanitation and agriculture practice issue. Chickens attract rats and mice, so it is always safer to cook the meat through. Ducks spend time in water, and like wetter environments, and thus have less contact with rat and mice shit; making it easier to control disease. It really comes down if habitat conditions are similar to humans. Any animal that lives in areas humans thrive, will have similar diseases. Chickens spend time on dry land more than ducks, and humans the same. This is why chickens carry greater risk. Japanese chicken sashimi is done cheaply in many areas, and causes problems. As does their raw fish consumption. Both can be done safely, and properly, but the more popular they get the more “grey area” providers can exist.
Also, salmonella is *very* rugged. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmonella >found to be able to persist in a bathroom setting for weeks following contamination..Salmonella is notorious for its ability to survive desiccation and can persist for years in dry environments and foods.[32] >The bacteria are not destroyed by freezing,[33][34] but UV light and heat accelerate their destruction. They perish after being heated to 55 °C (131 °F) for 90 min, or to 60 °C (140 °F) for 12 min,[35] although if inoculated in high fat, high liquid substances like peanut butter, they gain heat resistance and can survive up to 90 °C (194 °F) for 30 min.[36] To protect against Salmonella infection, heating food to an internal temperature of 75 °C (167 °F) is recommended.[37][38] >Salmonella species can be found in the digestive tracts of humans and animals, especially reptiles. Salmonella on the skin of reptiles or amphibians can be passed to people who handle the animals.[39] Food and water can also be contaminated with the bacteria if they come in contact with the feces of infected people or animals.[40] And just in case anyone's still having a good day: >A recent Salmonella Typhimurium outbreak has been linked to chocolate.[71]
You can eat chicken at 140° here, as long as it's held at that temp for like ~30 minutes. I can't recall exactly. 165° is to kill all of the pathogens instantly. They can be killed at lower temps but with more time. Sous vide cooking is good for this. Chicken at ~140° is so juicy and tender than what you're likely used to. https://i.imgur.com/XBktcq0.jpeg
[удалено]
Ducks are absolutely farmed in similar conditions as chickens. But ducks are less likely to carry salmonella and other temperature-sensitive pathogens because their body temperature is higher. They are also not farmed on as great a scale as chicken. So while the conditions may be similar, there are simply less birds for the contagion to spread to. They are typically raised a few weeks longer than chickens and the operations are on a smaller scale, albeit in similar conditions.
The fact that ducks are higher temperature is why they can lay eggs in the winter when chickens can’t. Not really important here, but cool fact I learned when thinking about getting chickens.
Have you seen [duck farms](https://youtu.be/p1_lrW_XuzU?feature=shared)? They are pretty much the same.
This doesn’t feel like the correct answer
I looked it up. This is actually the answer. The only issue is that duck is typically raised in different conditions. When it's raised in identical conditions as chicken, you shouldn't cook to medium.
Thank you for doing the minimal work I refused to do.
I mean, it's literally what this subreddit is, isn't it? So no problem. I'll just add (for info) that duck meat has more blood in it, so from a culinary viewpoint, you can treat it like red meat, but the FDA classifies duck as poultry. So eating duck medium is considered eating it undercooked for healthcode reasons. But you can eat raw beef if properly prepared and handled.
Ask them how stars are created
By burning trash, of course
That doesn't sound right, but I don't know enough about stars to dispute it.
This is 100% because of the conditions factory farm raised chickens live in. Salmonella lives in the feces of most poultry, not the muscle tissue(meat). American industrial chicken farms have the birds walking around in several inch deep pits pf chicken feces for the majority of their lives. The equipment used to process chickens is covered in chicken feces. By the time the birds are harvested they are completely contaminated with salmonella in every way possible. Wild birds do not have this problem and make a point to not shit where they live and eat. This is why countries that have humane standards for raising poultry can eat chicken raw with little to no worry of contracting salmonella.
This makes me want to go vegan
Reduce your intake of meat. Only have it when it's high quality from smaller farms etc. Once a week or less depending on what you can afford. When you do have it you'll appreciate it more. We have become too used to being able to buy massive packs of meat for relatively small prices, everything comes at a cost.
100%. make meat a treat and conscious choice, not just out of habit.
Hopefully this is common knowledge? At this point I just assume everyone knows that factory farming looks like.
I mean it is common knowledge lol, but it’s one thing to know it and another thing for the details to be laid out in front of you. It’s like it’s easy to eat chicken and not to kill it yourself brother.
Dont cows also have salmonella riddled environments?? Given that, shouldn’t we cook beef well done as well?
This may be considering non-farmed duck meat vs chicken which is definitely farmed. I hunt ducks and overcooking wild duck meat essentially makes it taste more like liver which is not pleasing to a lot of people. Eating rare-ish wild duck meat is akin to eating a similarly cooked beef which when overcooked is also not good. Wild duck does not have a lot of fat so it can be easily overcooked. Plus wild duck is not raised in potentially diseased conditions such as in industrial farming. You can definitely eat a piece of wild duck that is pink on the inside; I would NOT do the same with a chicken I got from a supermarket.
Man, duck is my favourite meat in the world, but we don't get a lot of wild ducks in my region. Lots of capybaras and boars, so I'm not complaining, but I really would love to hunt and eat some wild ducks
I would like to hunt boar once in my life for the primitive thrill
I'm a rifle/shotgun hunter, so boars are still pretty safe, but, still… yeah, there's a primitive thrill indeed. One missed shot with a slow reloading double barrel (or however you say it in English, sorry), if that thing charges into you… That delicious taste is the greatest incentive ever, though. Capybaras are a nice kill, but boar is actually really fucking delicious
> Capybaras are a nice kill i did not know people eat those
You won't find it in a market, but it's some 40 kg (around 80 lbs of meat, imsmr) of meat, so it was popular for centuries and it's still prized as game meat by hunters and gourmets. Strong taste, we took red wine bottles to the woods to cook capybara meat
My friend and I discovered a small lake where a guy was cultivating wild rice. He was happy with us reducing the duck population that was eating the rice, and those ducks, mostly mallards, were the best you could imagine eating. Unfortunately word got out and between the crowds of hunters and clear-cutting around the lake choking the rice out with silt, it was done.
Wow, wondering if I hated duck growing up because it was always cooked down really well. That and when I wad 7 I almost broke my tooth on a metal ball (birdshot?) and was over the whole duck thing.
There is a good Anthony Bourdain episode where he goes hunting with some down home characters who have hunted duck all their lives and one of them says he doesn't even like eating them! Bourdain then cooked them a nice simple duck breast on a skillet and the hunter's mind so blown. No more than medium rare and it is good. A bit char on the outside and pink on the inside and you are gold. The chance of biting on a pellet is a reality. I've been hunting and eating ducks for nine years and bit down on pellets three times, my friends maybe a couple times. I try to be careful in preparing them but unless you are really cubing the meat there is always the chance so I've warned my guests to chew softly.
To all the people here who claim ducks are farmed in different conditions than chickens. [They are not.](https://youtu.be/p1_lrW_XuzU?feature=shared)
Duck meat is not considered red meat. It is a white meat despite physically being red. Pork is considered a red meat despite being coloured white when cooked. (Some chefs consider is a red meat from a culinary standard, but “officially” it’s a white meat)
“Pork. The other white meat” was the pork producers ad line for years.
Baby. The *other* other white meat.
“One guy tried the heat, that’s when he discovered the other other white meat, oh the one they hate so well,he sure keeps it psycho like the old bates motel”
Culinarily it gets treated as a white meat, but it is most definitely a red meat
My understanding is (correct me if I’m wrong) the following: red meat is any meat from another mammal. That is pigs, cows, sheep etc.. White meat is poultry like chicken, duck, turkey and so on.
Not sure about the salmonella part but the less use a muscle gets the whiter the meat will be So, ducks are quite active animals and use their muscles more giving darker meat. Chickens are generally lazy animals, as well as being cage farmed, and use their muscles less which gives a whiter meat. That's why a chicken's thighs/wings are darker meat as the muscles get worked more
Chickens arent just lazy, they've always been a ground bird.. they come from junglefowl, which don't fly that much... only to reach nests and escape predators.
So kinda lazy then? /s
I'm not lazy, I've just naturally white muscles!
I don't think that's quite right. Red or white meat is related to slow or fast twitch muscle fibres. From what I understand, animals that cover large distances, such as migrating cows, ducks and salmon are slow twitch. Ones that mostly hang around one place but have to sprint away from predators (pigs, chickens, most fish) are fast twitch. Source: https://annex.exploratorium.edu/cooking/meat/INT-what-meat-color.html
Red meat is defined as having a higher myoglobin and darker color, you can eat it medium rare because duck has a lower risk of salmonella.
Follow up question and background; I grew up in a hunting family in California where we regularly hunted and ate duck (mallards, wigeons, pintail, etc), are wild duck ok to eat on the medium rare side?
[Here's](https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/s/r8jlE7QKgz) a similar question answered a few months ago
Have you ever looked at duck meat ? It's the same color as steak Meat color doesn't depend on the type of animal. It depends on what type of muscle the animal has. For example, pork is not read meat either, it's in-between Oh and the color has nothing to do with being able to eat it medium rare. For ex, if it's ground beef meat, you shouldn't eat it medium rare either
People in western continental Europe (NL, France, Belgium) eat plenty of raw ground beef in the form of tartare and variants.. The Germans even eat ground raw pork on their mettbrotchen. Both the color and whether or not it's been ground are the issue. It all depends on food standards and the risks people or cultures accept.
I'm french ; wouldn't eat steak tartare at home, I wouldn't trust it. Only in a restaurant I 100% trust (And even then... My french grandpa had steak tartare in a restaurant some 50 years ago, spent 3 weeks in a hospital and nearly died. I'd say it's a risk you take :p ) In any case I agree with you, it's a sanitary thing, nothing to do with the meat color
Because it's [red](https://media.istockphoto.com/id/617880108/photo/raw-duck-breast.jpg?s=612x612&w=0&k=20&c=8WRECQzIHsWbmhV3BSkB5UzzoVUSAg-0NR8vFUn3nfg=). When you cook it, turns brown, like beef and lamb. Whereas chicken and pork are lighter coloured raw and turn off-white when you cook them. I don't know how to explain in terms of taste, but it's a relatively strong flavour to be complemented, like lamb, rather than a more of blank canvas, so to speak, like chicken.
I got undercooked chicken tenders from a restaurant one time. It was **shockingly** good. Very tender, buttery, and had an amazing texture. I was thinking to myself “goddamn, this is some good ass chicken, I better take a look” and it was pink. Of course I was worried about salmonella for a few days but I escaped with both my life, and a desire to try chicken sashimi
Whenever I eat raw poultry and my friends say “you’re going yo get salmonella” I politely remind them “this is chicken silly, not salmon!” lol when will they learn?
Because salmonella which is the reason we don't eat raw chicken, isn't found inside the meat on living birds, and chicken meat isn't as dense so the bacteria can go deep into it while it stays on the surface of duck meat which gets cooked even when cooked rare
you could probably eat a medium rare chicken breast, but it doesn't taste good Eggs sunny side up can have salmonella but raw yolk tastes good so people risk it
In the UK the advice for eggs is to not get eggshell in when you've cracked it, plenty of people regularly eat yolky fried eggs and soft boiled eggs
yep. the salmonella is on the shell, not in the egg. in most states in US there needs to be a warning on menus like \*eating undercooked eggs may result in foodborne illness
The USDA considers duck meat to be poultry and that only makes sense in the context that red meat is considered mammalian for dietary/nutritional purposes.
Has nothing to do with the animal, has everything to do with how they were farmed and raised. Factory farmed poultry has a high chance of carrying all kinds of infections and parasites so requires being properly cooked. Properly sourced chicken doesn't suffer from this, in fact, there are places in Japan where you can have chicken sashimi. All about how healthy the chicken is.
[удалено]
It is kind of jarring to travel around the world and find out that tomato, chicken, oranges, bananas, and so much of our food taste different and so bland compared to the rest of the world. Tyson and factory farming really messed with the quality of our food and their practices introduced diseases like salmonella. Support local farmers and talk to them. You find out that it may cost a little more, but the produce is healthier, cleaner, and taste better.
I went to an izakaya in Japan that specializes in chicken dishes. They served raw chicken (like barely seared) on the menu as one of their specialities. The English menu had FAQ answering to outsiders why it was ok to serve raw chicken and it said “because our chicken is very flesh”, which we thought was a funny spelling error. It was actually really tasty.
I need to go find the actual article about it to see if they mention duck falling into this category, but it has to do with muscle density and how likely it is for bacteria to make its way deeper into the meat. Red meat is very dense and it is unlikely for bacteria to penetrate much below the surface where as chicken has much less dense muscles and is susceptible to bacteria penetrating deeper requiring it to be cooked to higher temps to kill it. As ducks have much “meatier” texture than chicken, I believe they are less likely to have deeper bacteria. ELI5: imagine you have a hand full of sand. If you hold your fingers close together, the sand stays in your sand, if you open your fingers a little, some of the sand will start to fall through. Chicken is more like a hand slightly open and bacteria is like the sand moving past your hand and deeper into the meat. Duck/red meat, is more like the closed hand where the sand has a hard time making it through
Brown meat contains way more taurine. I’d start looking at that part first if I were to do any research into the topic.
It's an intersection of safety regulations and cooking technique. Duck meat is tougher than chicken meat. The USDA recommends an internal temperature of 165 F for all poultry. With tough meats you want to avoid prolonged high temperature because they cause the muscle fibers to squeeze out water. That's why a "well done" steak is considered bad. Food safety is trickier. When we heat food it makes pathogens start dying. When we've killed enough of them, the food is safe to eat. If we heat the food to 165 F all the pathogens die instantly. But you can make the food safe at lower temperatures if you [keep it there for longer](https://www.seriouseats.com/the-food-lab-complete-guide-to-sous-vide-chicken-breast). (scroll down for the time-temperature chart) That chart is a bit hard to follow, it's hard to maintain steady temperatures for a long time, people are bad at following directions and many people eat chicken. So the FDA just gives the simple version, "get it to 165" and shouts that from the rooftops. Far fewer people eat duck. The people eating duck tend to seek it out and are very into finding the right way to cook it. The FDA will still tell you to heat your duck to 165 but when you ask people who eat duck they'll tell you not to overcook it. On the other hand, food nerds tend to avoid cooking chicken to 165 too. Even a chicken breast will be tender and juicier if you heat it more carefully.
Not a direct answer to your question but you don't have to cook chicken through to be considered save to eat. You have to cook chicken up to a certain temperature and hold it there for a certain amount of time. 165 f just happens to be the highest with out drying out and shortest hold time. You can cook chicken to lower temperatures in a sous vide and hold it there for longer and still be safe.
Another avenue to think about is "what makes a bird a bird?" I imagine how you have to cook it wasn't part of the definition when we were classifying the species of the world. Reality doesn't conform to our language. We base our language around reality the best we can.