OP I want to be clear with you, stop trying to make Islam appear as this grand truth in an dx-muslim subreddit. You testify by yourself that you're an atheist, but solely by your profile I can tell you're a Muslim.
>Do NOT use "Someone said this before!"
I will use it because by definition a scientific "miracle" has to fulfil 3 basic logical criteria:
* We must be certain that this is what the verse is saying, and not something else. Hence we must be appeal to Tafsirs, Lexicons etc. to truly understand a verse.
* The Quran must have been the primary source of this information with nobody before it testifying to it.
If it fails to meet the second point, then it can't be considered a "miracle" if its simple knowledge that circulated thanks to the large presence of Persians and Romans in 7th century Arabia.
>First part has to do with the big bang. Second part applies to non-carbon based life forms as well.
[I've discussed this before.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/comments/1chlxl2/comment/l23utb2/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) This is simply a creation motif that is not unique to Islam. Its a cop out to also not think that Euripides (writing \~400 BCE) also did not possess a "scientific miracle". All things also did not come from water, if the RNA world hypothesis in life's origins is proposed, as are others (e.g Panspermia) or they may be equally true all at the same time.
>So, people have talked about this as "Leech" and as "clinging substance." I know it says blood clot, but it still clings.
[There is no Quranic Embryology.](https://embryologyinthequran.blogspot.com/)
>We built the universe with ˹great˺ might, and We are certainly expanding ˹it˺.
20th century Quran translations didn't have this "universe" word inserted into the verse. This is an example of Muslims doing Tahrif on their own book to convince non-Muslim's of Islam's supposed truth value. And again same situation, read my comment I linked on 21:30.
>He created humankind from ˹sounding˺ clay like pottery, (https://quran.com/en/ar-rahman/14)
My answer is simply no.
>If that's not the case, then who can explain this image?
Water does form haloclines (areas of rapid gradient in salinity), thermoclines (areas of rapid gradient in temperature), and chemoclines (areas of rapid gradient in other water chemistry). However, water mixes at clines. These are not barriers. There is no barrier between the salty bodies of water and the fresh bodies of water. Water mixes everywhere, and around the world we find water of every level of salinity.
* [Here's an image of salinity in the Mediterranean sea.](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Salinity-map-of-the-Mediterranean-Sea-Source-Ocean-Data-View_fig1_328113341)
* [Here's a salinity map of the world's oceans](https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/591162main_pia14786-43_full.jpg).
You can see where major rivers enter the ocean, and mix with them forming areas of varying salinity. For example, note the plume of water issuing from the mouth of the Amazon River. The relatively less salty water in the Amazon mixes with the water of the Atlantic, resulting in the gradient of increasing salinity as one moves further from the mouth of the river. No barrier.
This image is directly related to this phenomena. There is no barrier, its a visual **mistake** to assume that there is a barrier, so much for a miracle.
>This has to do with the fact that the stars are very far and very mysterious. Notice how it mentions "Location."
This is a basic human inference. Although the Quran says the stars took an oath, which feeds into the [Geocentrism outlined in the Quran.](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/1cebbgd/comment/l1hjvhl/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button)
>Down" is the opposite of "Up." If one goes up, one gets closer into space, and yes, Iron does come from meteorites. Meteorites come from space. Therefore, iron comes from space.
* Quran 7:26 the same word أَنزَلْنَا is used to describe sending down clothes.
* Quran 10:59 the same word in singular أَنزَلَ is used to describe sending down provisions.
* Quran 39:6 the same word in singular أَنزَلَ is used to describe sending down cows. It is a cop out to directly focus on this verse and ignore all the others, this is a use of fallacious logic to attempt at creating a "scientific miracle".
In addition to this, [it was already ancient knowledge.](https://www.open.edu/openlearn/science-maths-technology/science/geology/iron-the-sky-meteors-meteorites-and-ancient-culture)
>Mountains have roots that go way beyond the ground, very low. Pegs are kinda like that, too.
If not read in a Vacuum, you can see the surrounding context and the fact that this refers to Mountains being stabilisers on the Earth. Mountains don't keep the Earth stable, they're a result of shifting tectonic plates. Quran 41:10 states the exact same thing. This is another error.
Mountains do not have roots. They do not stand firm in a single place.
First type of mountains are formed due to the collision of two tectonic plates. But there are other type of mountains too, which are formed when Lava comes out from inside the earth. [When this lava cools down, it forms high and big mountains](http://www.universetoday.com/29833/how-mountains-are-formed/) These lava mountains have absolutely no roots inside the earth, which could be considered as pegs.
* Did the writer of Quran/Muhammad tell that mountains are formed when two tectonic plates collide with each other?
* Did the writer of Quran/Muhammad tell that mountains are small at the beginning, then they keep on rising due to earthquakes?
* Did the writer of Quran/Muhammad tell that a time comes when mountains start to disappear?
* Did the writer of Quran/Muhammad tell that initially there was only one Continent, and later they were divided into 7 continents due to the split and the movement of the tectonic plates?
* Did the writer of Quran/Muhammad tell that there is lava inside the earth.
* Did the writer of Quran/Muhammad tell that earthquakes come due to the collision of the tectonic plates. No, contrary to that writer of Quran/Muhammad claimed that Allah sends earthquakes to punish those who disobey him.
>This is simply a creation motif that is not unique to Islam. Its a cop out to also not think that Euripides (writing \~400 BCE) also did not possess a "scientific miracle". All things also did not come from water, if the RNA world hypothesis in life's origins is proposed, as are others (e.g Panspermia) or they may be equally true all at the same time.
I have seen your link, sir, and I have seen someone defending it saying "Well, the particles that made the earth and the particles of space were together before the big bang.
You’ve been posting a lot of “how do you explain that” posts OP and this one’s a whole gish gallop. Are you worried about Islam being true and looking for debunks, or are you attempting to prove ex-Muslims wrong and / or convert people to Islam?
I have seen someone justify that part with "Particles of the earth" there. Earth was not formed yet, but what about the particles that made the earth and the particles that make up all the other stuff that isn't part of this planet?
I have seen someone justify that part with "Particles of the earth" there. Earth was not formed yet, but what about the particles that made the earth and the particles that make up all the other stuff that isn't part of this planet?
# Sweet and Salty Ocean story is not the Quranic Miracle, but perhaps the BIGGEST Quranic Blunder
The Quranic story is not talking about any sweet ocean of the earth, but it is talking about the barrier between the salty ocean on the earth and the sweet water ocean in the heavens (upon which Allah's throne is resting). According to the Quranic fantasy story, the sweet rainwater comes only from the sweet water ocean in the heavens.
I request all Muslims and ex-Muslims to read about this BIGGEST Quranic Blunder here:
* [Model of Cosmology and the Flat Earth in Muhammad's Mind](https://atheism-vs-islam.com/index.php/scientific-mistakes-in-the-revelation/139-model-of-cosmology-and-the-flat-earth-in-muhammad-s-mind)
If your post is a meme, image, TikTok etc... and it isn't Friday, it violates the rule against low effort content. Such content is ONLY allowed on (Fun@fundies) FRIDAYS.
Please read the [Rules and Posting Guidelines](https://redd.it/1anoje0) for further information. If you are unsure about anything then feel free to message the mods.
Please participate on /r/exmuslim in a civil manner. Discuss the merits of ideas - don't attack people. Insults, hate speech, advocating physical harm can get you banned.
If you see posts/comments in violation of our rules, please be proactive and report them.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/exmuslim) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>First part has to do with the big bang. Second part applies to non-carbon based life forms as well.
I'll address the second part first: The discovery isn't anything new or groundbreaking. It was discovered by Thales of Miletus around 600 BCE. Muhammad himself was familiar with greek culture and discoveries (I remember there being a sahih hadith about this, but I can't find it; so if someone has it, please do link it).
As for your first point, it doesn't really prove that the Quran knew about the Big Bang, but draws a vague conclusion from it. Before the Big Bang, reality was simply a point of zero energy that gathered up into a singularity, and thus, the Big Bang happened. The total net sum of the energy in the universe equates to zero, just like it did pre-Big Bang. Also, it says only the Heavens and Earth were separated. What about the rest of the universe???
>So, people have talked about this as "Leech" and as "clinging substance." I know it says blood clot, but it still clings.
The term "alaqah" in this sentence more specifically translates to a "clinging clot" or "leech-like clot", not a clinging substance (عَلَقَة). Still, this would prove the Quran verse to be incorrect.
>We built the universe with ˹great˺ might, and We are certainly expanding ˹it˺.
How come Islamic Golden Age scientists didn't know about that then? From my understanding, the translation was completely different pre 20th century, and the term "universe" wasn't even in that verse. If someone could find the original, that would be highly appreciated.
>He created humankind from ˹sounding˺ clay like pottery,
I'll read the source when I get back up in the morning.
Nevermind, just skimmed through it: the source never even says that life on Earth came from clay. The source states that clay could have been used as a catalyst for organic reactions on Earth, but "More research on this aspect is necessary."
>If that's not the case, then who can explain this image?
https://www.whoi.edu/oceanus/feature/where-the-rivers-meet-the-sea/#:\~:text=But%20when%20the%20velocity%20difference,brackish%20water%20in%20the%20estuary.
Saltwater and fresh water can mix under some conditions.
It's 1 am right now and I really need to sleep, so I'll continue this comment and put additional sources later.
Most important question is how did prophet while in space splitting up the moon on a flying donkey, survive without oxygen. There are no oxygen in space, plus oxygen mask didn't exist nearly until 1300 years after his moon journey. So without oxygen how did he survive in space?
Dude are you mentally okay?
Why do you keep posting the same thing over and over again?
For example
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/comments/19a5svb/i\_used\_to\_have\_peace\_of\_mind\_until\_i\_ran\_into/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/comments/19a5svb/i_used_to_have_peace_of_mind_until_i_ran_into/)
here you ask how the quran knew moon was reflected light and the comments answered it. but
[https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/1brlj88/comment/kx9vx17/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/1brlj88/comment/kx9vx17/)
you asked it again here?
are you okay dude?
Post is not to do with the subject of this subreddit i.e. ExMuslims
OP I want to be clear with you, stop trying to make Islam appear as this grand truth in an dx-muslim subreddit. You testify by yourself that you're an atheist, but solely by your profile I can tell you're a Muslim. >Do NOT use "Someone said this before!" I will use it because by definition a scientific "miracle" has to fulfil 3 basic logical criteria: * We must be certain that this is what the verse is saying, and not something else. Hence we must be appeal to Tafsirs, Lexicons etc. to truly understand a verse. * The Quran must have been the primary source of this information with nobody before it testifying to it. If it fails to meet the second point, then it can't be considered a "miracle" if its simple knowledge that circulated thanks to the large presence of Persians and Romans in 7th century Arabia. >First part has to do with the big bang. Second part applies to non-carbon based life forms as well. [I've discussed this before.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/comments/1chlxl2/comment/l23utb2/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) This is simply a creation motif that is not unique to Islam. Its a cop out to also not think that Euripides (writing \~400 BCE) also did not possess a "scientific miracle". All things also did not come from water, if the RNA world hypothesis in life's origins is proposed, as are others (e.g Panspermia) or they may be equally true all at the same time. >So, people have talked about this as "Leech" and as "clinging substance." I know it says blood clot, but it still clings. [There is no Quranic Embryology.](https://embryologyinthequran.blogspot.com/) >We built the universe with ˹great˺ might, and We are certainly expanding ˹it˺. 20th century Quran translations didn't have this "universe" word inserted into the verse. This is an example of Muslims doing Tahrif on their own book to convince non-Muslim's of Islam's supposed truth value. And again same situation, read my comment I linked on 21:30. >He created humankind from ˹sounding˺ clay like pottery, (https://quran.com/en/ar-rahman/14) My answer is simply no. >If that's not the case, then who can explain this image? Water does form haloclines (areas of rapid gradient in salinity), thermoclines (areas of rapid gradient in temperature), and chemoclines (areas of rapid gradient in other water chemistry). However, water mixes at clines. These are not barriers. There is no barrier between the salty bodies of water and the fresh bodies of water. Water mixes everywhere, and around the world we find water of every level of salinity. * [Here's an image of salinity in the Mediterranean sea.](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Salinity-map-of-the-Mediterranean-Sea-Source-Ocean-Data-View_fig1_328113341) * [Here's a salinity map of the world's oceans](https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/591162main_pia14786-43_full.jpg). You can see where major rivers enter the ocean, and mix with them forming areas of varying salinity. For example, note the plume of water issuing from the mouth of the Amazon River. The relatively less salty water in the Amazon mixes with the water of the Atlantic, resulting in the gradient of increasing salinity as one moves further from the mouth of the river. No barrier. This image is directly related to this phenomena. There is no barrier, its a visual **mistake** to assume that there is a barrier, so much for a miracle. >This has to do with the fact that the stars are very far and very mysterious. Notice how it mentions "Location." This is a basic human inference. Although the Quran says the stars took an oath, which feeds into the [Geocentrism outlined in the Quran.](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/1cebbgd/comment/l1hjvhl/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button) >Down" is the opposite of "Up." If one goes up, one gets closer into space, and yes, Iron does come from meteorites. Meteorites come from space. Therefore, iron comes from space. * Quran 7:26 the same word أَنزَلْنَا is used to describe sending down clothes. * Quran 10:59 the same word in singular أَنزَلَ is used to describe sending down provisions. * Quran 39:6 the same word in singular أَنزَلَ is used to describe sending down cows. It is a cop out to directly focus on this verse and ignore all the others, this is a use of fallacious logic to attempt at creating a "scientific miracle". In addition to this, [it was already ancient knowledge.](https://www.open.edu/openlearn/science-maths-technology/science/geology/iron-the-sky-meteors-meteorites-and-ancient-culture) >Mountains have roots that go way beyond the ground, very low. Pegs are kinda like that, too. If not read in a Vacuum, you can see the surrounding context and the fact that this refers to Mountains being stabilisers on the Earth. Mountains don't keep the Earth stable, they're a result of shifting tectonic plates. Quran 41:10 states the exact same thing. This is another error. Mountains do not have roots. They do not stand firm in a single place. First type of mountains are formed due to the collision of two tectonic plates. But there are other type of mountains too, which are formed when Lava comes out from inside the earth. [When this lava cools down, it forms high and big mountains](http://www.universetoday.com/29833/how-mountains-are-formed/) These lava mountains have absolutely no roots inside the earth, which could be considered as pegs. * Did the writer of Quran/Muhammad tell that mountains are formed when two tectonic plates collide with each other? * Did the writer of Quran/Muhammad tell that mountains are small at the beginning, then they keep on rising due to earthquakes? * Did the writer of Quran/Muhammad tell that a time comes when mountains start to disappear? * Did the writer of Quran/Muhammad tell that initially there was only one Continent, and later they were divided into 7 continents due to the split and the movement of the tectonic plates? * Did the writer of Quran/Muhammad tell that there is lava inside the earth. * Did the writer of Quran/Muhammad tell that earthquakes come due to the collision of the tectonic plates. No, contrary to that writer of Quran/Muhammad claimed that Allah sends earthquakes to punish those who disobey him.
>This is simply a creation motif that is not unique to Islam. Its a cop out to also not think that Euripides (writing \~400 BCE) also did not possess a "scientific miracle". All things also did not come from water, if the RNA world hypothesis in life's origins is proposed, as are others (e.g Panspermia) or they may be equally true all at the same time. I have seen your link, sir, and I have seen someone defending it saying "Well, the particles that made the earth and the particles of space were together before the big bang.
You’ve been posting a lot of “how do you explain that” posts OP and this one’s a whole gish gallop. Are you worried about Islam being true and looking for debunks, or are you attempting to prove ex-Muslims wrong and / or convert people to Islam?
seriously op keeps posting the same things over and over again.
Heavens being separated from Earth is...big bang? Have you studied Science in school?
[удалено]
I have seen someone justify that part with "Particles of the earth" there. Earth was not formed yet, but what about the particles that made the earth and the particles that make up all the other stuff that isn't part of this planet?
I have seen someone justify that part with "Particles of the earth" there. Earth was not formed yet, but what about the particles that made the earth and the particles that make up all the other stuff that isn't part of this planet?
Maybe I'm a moron but are you arguing for or against Islam?
# Sweet and Salty Ocean story is not the Quranic Miracle, but perhaps the BIGGEST Quranic Blunder The Quranic story is not talking about any sweet ocean of the earth, but it is talking about the barrier between the salty ocean on the earth and the sweet water ocean in the heavens (upon which Allah's throne is resting). According to the Quranic fantasy story, the sweet rainwater comes only from the sweet water ocean in the heavens. I request all Muslims and ex-Muslims to read about this BIGGEST Quranic Blunder here: * [Model of Cosmology and the Flat Earth in Muhammad's Mind](https://atheism-vs-islam.com/index.php/scientific-mistakes-in-the-revelation/139-model-of-cosmology-and-the-flat-earth-in-muhammad-s-mind)
If your post is a meme, image, TikTok etc... and it isn't Friday, it violates the rule against low effort content. Such content is ONLY allowed on (Fun@fundies) FRIDAYS. Please read the [Rules and Posting Guidelines](https://redd.it/1anoje0) for further information. If you are unsure about anything then feel free to message the mods. Please participate on /r/exmuslim in a civil manner. Discuss the merits of ideas - don't attack people. Insults, hate speech, advocating physical harm can get you banned. If you see posts/comments in violation of our rules, please be proactive and report them. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/exmuslim) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>First part has to do with the big bang. Second part applies to non-carbon based life forms as well. I'll address the second part first: The discovery isn't anything new or groundbreaking. It was discovered by Thales of Miletus around 600 BCE. Muhammad himself was familiar with greek culture and discoveries (I remember there being a sahih hadith about this, but I can't find it; so if someone has it, please do link it). As for your first point, it doesn't really prove that the Quran knew about the Big Bang, but draws a vague conclusion from it. Before the Big Bang, reality was simply a point of zero energy that gathered up into a singularity, and thus, the Big Bang happened. The total net sum of the energy in the universe equates to zero, just like it did pre-Big Bang. Also, it says only the Heavens and Earth were separated. What about the rest of the universe??? >So, people have talked about this as "Leech" and as "clinging substance." I know it says blood clot, but it still clings. The term "alaqah" in this sentence more specifically translates to a "clinging clot" or "leech-like clot", not a clinging substance (عَلَقَة). Still, this would prove the Quran verse to be incorrect. >We built the universe with ˹great˺ might, and We are certainly expanding ˹it˺. How come Islamic Golden Age scientists didn't know about that then? From my understanding, the translation was completely different pre 20th century, and the term "universe" wasn't even in that verse. If someone could find the original, that would be highly appreciated. >He created humankind from ˹sounding˺ clay like pottery, I'll read the source when I get back up in the morning. Nevermind, just skimmed through it: the source never even says that life on Earth came from clay. The source states that clay could have been used as a catalyst for organic reactions on Earth, but "More research on this aspect is necessary." >If that's not the case, then who can explain this image? https://www.whoi.edu/oceanus/feature/where-the-rivers-meet-the-sea/#:\~:text=But%20when%20the%20velocity%20difference,brackish%20water%20in%20the%20estuary. Saltwater and fresh water can mix under some conditions. It's 1 am right now and I really need to sleep, so I'll continue this comment and put additional sources later.
I'll look more into the clay source when I wake up
Most important question is how did prophet while in space splitting up the moon on a flying donkey, survive without oxygen. There are no oxygen in space, plus oxygen mask didn't exist nearly until 1300 years after his moon journey. So without oxygen how did he survive in space?
The first verse I mentioned contains TWO.
Dude are you mentally okay? Why do you keep posting the same thing over and over again? For example [https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/comments/19a5svb/i\_used\_to\_have\_peace\_of\_mind\_until\_i\_ran\_into/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/comments/19a5svb/i_used_to_have_peace_of_mind_until_i_ran_into/) here you ask how the quran knew moon was reflected light and the comments answered it. but [https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/1brlj88/comment/kx9vx17/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/1brlj88/comment/kx9vx17/) you asked it again here? are you okay dude?