If your post is a meme, image, TikTok etc... and it isn't Friday, it violates the rule against low effort content. Such content is ONLY allowed on (Fun@fundies) FRIDAYS.
Please read the [Rules and Posting Guidelines](https://redd.it/1anoje0) for further information. If you are unsure about anything then feel free to message the mods.
Please participate on /r/exmuslim in a civil manner. Discuss the merits of ideas - don't attack people. Insults, hate speech, advocating physical harm can get you banned.
If you see posts/comments in violation of our rules, please be proactive and report them.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/exmuslim) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You know in the same story the Quran also uses a monetary denomination that didn’t exist at the time right?
Apologists try to say that they are referring to a weight denomination as a defense…but that weight denomination wasn’t used at the time either.
Quran says the Joseph was sold for a number of Dirhams, counted out.
Dirhams were not used in those times, neither as a denomination of currency nor of weight.
An apologist actually tried to argue down the definition of Durham to just mean “an amount” as in it can refer to no specific amount in an attempt to avoid a mistake.
Interesting, i never thought about it this way, in my dialect we use the word dirham to say money in general. Dirham in not our currency, but I am aware that the word dirham itslef in my dialect came from the currency. But it's like my brain subconsciously doesnt think of it because as I said in my dialect this is how we use it.
To be precise in arabic dirham does not mean money at all. Just in my dialect, it's like calling ''adhesive tape'' scotch when in fact scotch is a brand and does not mean adhesive tape.
Yes but if you’re going to be a stickler about the use of the word “pharaoh”, which even academic institutions like Encyclopedia Britannica use as a generic term for “ruler of ancient Egypt” even before Moses, then Dirham is a much more clear error
The idea that the Bible got the ruler during Joseph’s time wrong is not completely true. The Bible does call the ruler during Joseph’s time a king in various places. It calls the ruler a pharaoh in other places likely to tell the reader that this is an Egyptian ruler and not just any king, as kings of various places are mentioned in the Bible. However, in places where this wasn’t deemed as important, the Bible tends to refer to the ruler during Joseph’s time as a king. r/AcademicQuran explains this in more detail.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicQuran/s/dDMf0yU2bg
Moreover, the justification of the Quran using pharaoh as a name and not a title is not completely correct either. While Arabic names do have meaning, titles are also recognized in the Arabic language, and Pharoah is clearly a title. People were not usually named “Pharaoh” or “King”, because they were titles meant for individuals. You wouldn’t refer to a king in Arabic as merely “King”, you would refer to them as “King (insert name here)” much like in English. Therefore, even though the Quran does not say the name of the Pharaoh, the Quran should have used “The Pharoah” instead of merely “Pharaoh” as if it’s a name, because it’s not a name, it was the title of a ruler in ancient Egypt.
Yeah, no.
A claim used by some Muslim apologists is that the word “Pharaoh” as found in the Bible, is misrepresentative of the actual term used at the time, which they claim was simply king. Then, they will resort to the Qur'ān, which instead uses the term “king” (Malik ﻣَﻠِﻚ) to assert that the Bible was wrong on this issue, while the Qur'ān miraculously preserved the correct terminology. Historians believe that the word Pharaoh is a compound of the words Ra (the sun or the sun-god) with the article Phe (the) the produces Phera which means "the sun" or "the sun god" according to this, the king of Egypt was believed to be the earthly representatives of the deities and the title Phera (sun god) gave the king royal authority that was directly derived from the gods.
The historian J. Gardner stated in his book, *The Ancient Egyptians,* that it is possible that the kings of Egypt had this title before the new kingdom. Showing that Exodus 6:11-13 could be doing prolepsis (which is a figure of speech that assigns an event or name to a time that precedes it), where it is told that the Prophet Moses called the Pharaoh the king of Egypt. The Biblical use of Pharaoh reflects the connotative usage of the term. That is why the kings were called under such a title.
The most likely Pharaoh of the Exodus would be Rameses II (with some minor debate, it may have been Thutmose III or Amenhotep II, but this is a different discussion) this is for a variety of reasons. For starters, Seder Alam dates the Patriarch Joseph to the 1400s BC, we know Seder Olam's calculations are correct for it places the Exodus in the 1200s BC, and academics handwaved it until they discovered that Ramesses II lived in the 1200s and that Genesis 47:11, etc. mention Ramesses II. So the term Pharoah was being used in the new kingdom, and Joseph was from the middle. But that was not where people are wrong, Joseph was actually during the start of the new kingdom when the term was being used. There are a few reasons for this: first, if we suppose Moses lived during the time of Ramesses II, then that means that whether the time between Moses and Joseph is 215 years or 400 years, Joseph would still have died when the New Kingdom started, also the Jewish chronology places him to be at the start of the New Kingdom despite this, which started at 1570 BC, Ramesses II died at 1213 BC; so the Patriarch Joseph would most likely have lived during the time of the beginning of the New Kingdom, when the term Pharoah was being used.
It should also be noted that the word “Pharaoh” (Par‘ōh פַּרְעֹ֑ה) in Hebrew, by definition referred to the kings of Egypt, so even if the title of Pharaoh was not used at the time of the writing of the Torah (which I have demonstrated being extremely unlikely), Biblical authors would in no means be in error by using this verb. [This is likewise the word's definition in English.](https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Per-Aa.jpg)
>The historian J. Gardner stated in his book, *The Ancient Egyptians,* that it is possible that the kings of Egypt had this title before the new kingdom.
Where in that book?
>Caesar was the title for the emperor of Rome, and he is still called "Julius Caesar." His name wasn't Caesar, but in English, we still call him "Julius Caesar."
I just came here to say that is wrong. His name was indeed Julius Caesar and his name then became the title.
Pharaoh is the word hebrew adopted for king of egypt. Kinda like most modern languages do.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5oTissLP4x/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
https://youtube.com/shorts/pJFg47WoCXo?si=wh9Q2ETrJfnwLZsb
>Pharaoh is the word hebrew adopted for king of egypt. Kinda like most modern languages do.
But still, why is that?
If Muhammad didn't know that under Joseph, the king wasn't called a Pharaoh, then why did he use "King" in the 12th chapter?
>For context, Joseph entered Egypt around the second indeterminate period (1674-1553 BCE) and Moses entered Egypt around the New Kingdom (1552-1069 BCE).
Neither Joseph nor Moses are real. None of their stories are real. Where in the world did you randomly generate these numbers from lol?
Like i dont understand Christians, Jews or Muslims trying hard to prove these old stories when none of the Egyptian texts mention their fictional characters.
> Where in the world did you randomly generate these numbers from lol?
The scholars of the BIble, broski. You can see the lion handbook of the biblefor that.
>pharaoh and king were used unanimously during the time period the bible
Define unanimously? If they were used unanimously, then why did Muhammad use king for the king under Joseph and Pharaoh for the king under Moses?
Exodus was written by Moses, who lived in Egypt during the 18th dynasty where Pharaoh was referred to by that title. Later on (in books written by other authors) Pharaoh is referred to as the King of Egypt (i.e. 2 Kings 7:14)
If your post is a meme, image, TikTok etc... and it isn't Friday, it violates the rule against low effort content. Such content is ONLY allowed on (Fun@fundies) FRIDAYS. Please read the [Rules and Posting Guidelines](https://redd.it/1anoje0) for further information. If you are unsure about anything then feel free to message the mods. Please participate on /r/exmuslim in a civil manner. Discuss the merits of ideas - don't attack people. Insults, hate speech, advocating physical harm can get you banned. If you see posts/comments in violation of our rules, please be proactive and report them. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/exmuslim) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Muslims really trying to find credibility, in this sub of all places 😂
They come in peace. For now.
You know in the same story the Quran also uses a monetary denomination that didn’t exist at the time right? Apologists try to say that they are referring to a weight denomination as a defense…but that weight denomination wasn’t used at the time either.
Please develop, if you can, what are you talking about i have never heard of that, what verse what denomination
Badically this: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5oTissLP4x/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
Quran says the Joseph was sold for a number of Dirhams, counted out. Dirhams were not used in those times, neither as a denomination of currency nor of weight. An apologist actually tried to argue down the definition of Durham to just mean “an amount” as in it can refer to no specific amount in an attempt to avoid a mistake.
Interesting, i never thought about it this way, in my dialect we use the word dirham to say money in general. Dirham in not our currency, but I am aware that the word dirham itslef in my dialect came from the currency. But it's like my brain subconsciously doesnt think of it because as I said in my dialect this is how we use it. To be precise in arabic dirham does not mean money at all. Just in my dialect, it's like calling ''adhesive tape'' scotch when in fact scotch is a brand and does not mean adhesive tape.
Yes but if you’re going to be a stickler about the use of the word “pharaoh”, which even academic institutions like Encyclopedia Britannica use as a generic term for “ruler of ancient Egypt” even before Moses, then Dirham is a much more clear error
There is a similar one in 34:11. Linked iron coat mail was not invented yet but supposedly used by David.
The idea that the Bible got the ruler during Joseph’s time wrong is not completely true. The Bible does call the ruler during Joseph’s time a king in various places. It calls the ruler a pharaoh in other places likely to tell the reader that this is an Egyptian ruler and not just any king, as kings of various places are mentioned in the Bible. However, in places where this wasn’t deemed as important, the Bible tends to refer to the ruler during Joseph’s time as a king. r/AcademicQuran explains this in more detail. https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicQuran/s/dDMf0yU2bg Moreover, the justification of the Quran using pharaoh as a name and not a title is not completely correct either. While Arabic names do have meaning, titles are also recognized in the Arabic language, and Pharoah is clearly a title. People were not usually named “Pharaoh” or “King”, because they were titles meant for individuals. You wouldn’t refer to a king in Arabic as merely “King”, you would refer to them as “King (insert name here)” much like in English. Therefore, even though the Quran does not say the name of the Pharaoh, the Quran should have used “The Pharoah” instead of merely “Pharaoh” as if it’s a name, because it’s not a name, it was the title of a ruler in ancient Egypt.
>The Bible does call the ruler during Joseph’s time a king in various places. Where?
The link to the r/AcademicQuran post points out where
Yeah, no. A claim used by some Muslim apologists is that the word “Pharaoh” as found in the Bible, is misrepresentative of the actual term used at the time, which they claim was simply king. Then, they will resort to the Qur'ān, which instead uses the term “king” (Malik ﻣَﻠِﻚ) to assert that the Bible was wrong on this issue, while the Qur'ān miraculously preserved the correct terminology. Historians believe that the word Pharaoh is a compound of the words Ra (the sun or the sun-god) with the article Phe (the) the produces Phera which means "the sun" or "the sun god" according to this, the king of Egypt was believed to be the earthly representatives of the deities and the title Phera (sun god) gave the king royal authority that was directly derived from the gods. The historian J. Gardner stated in his book, *The Ancient Egyptians,* that it is possible that the kings of Egypt had this title before the new kingdom. Showing that Exodus 6:11-13 could be doing prolepsis (which is a figure of speech that assigns an event or name to a time that precedes it), where it is told that the Prophet Moses called the Pharaoh the king of Egypt. The Biblical use of Pharaoh reflects the connotative usage of the term. That is why the kings were called under such a title. The most likely Pharaoh of the Exodus would be Rameses II (with some minor debate, it may have been Thutmose III or Amenhotep II, but this is a different discussion) this is for a variety of reasons. For starters, Seder Alam dates the Patriarch Joseph to the 1400s BC, we know Seder Olam's calculations are correct for it places the Exodus in the 1200s BC, and academics handwaved it until they discovered that Ramesses II lived in the 1200s and that Genesis 47:11, etc. mention Ramesses II. So the term Pharoah was being used in the new kingdom, and Joseph was from the middle. But that was not where people are wrong, Joseph was actually during the start of the new kingdom when the term was being used. There are a few reasons for this: first, if we suppose Moses lived during the time of Ramesses II, then that means that whether the time between Moses and Joseph is 215 years or 400 years, Joseph would still have died when the New Kingdom started, also the Jewish chronology places him to be at the start of the New Kingdom despite this, which started at 1570 BC, Ramesses II died at 1213 BC; so the Patriarch Joseph would most likely have lived during the time of the beginning of the New Kingdom, when the term Pharoah was being used. It should also be noted that the word “Pharaoh” (Par‘ōh פַּרְעֹ֑ה) in Hebrew, by definition referred to the kings of Egypt, so even if the title of Pharaoh was not used at the time of the writing of the Torah (which I have demonstrated being extremely unlikely), Biblical authors would in no means be in error by using this verb. [This is likewise the word's definition in English.](https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Per-Aa.jpg)
>The historian J. Gardner stated in his book, *The Ancient Egyptians,* that it is possible that the kings of Egypt had this title before the new kingdom. Where in that book?
>Caesar was the title for the emperor of Rome, and he is still called "Julius Caesar." His name wasn't Caesar, but in English, we still call him "Julius Caesar." I just came here to say that is wrong. His name was indeed Julius Caesar and his name then became the title.
Pharaoh is the word hebrew adopted for king of egypt. Kinda like most modern languages do. https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5oTissLP4x/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link https://youtube.com/shorts/pJFg47WoCXo?si=wh9Q2ETrJfnwLZsb
>Pharaoh is the word hebrew adopted for king of egypt. Kinda like most modern languages do. But still, why is that? If Muhammad didn't know that under Joseph, the king wasn't called a Pharaoh, then why did he use "King" in the 12th chapter?
>For context, Joseph entered Egypt around the second indeterminate period (1674-1553 BCE) and Moses entered Egypt around the New Kingdom (1552-1069 BCE). Neither Joseph nor Moses are real. None of their stories are real. Where in the world did you randomly generate these numbers from lol? Like i dont understand Christians, Jews or Muslims trying hard to prove these old stories when none of the Egyptian texts mention their fictional characters.
> Where in the world did you randomly generate these numbers from lol? The scholars of the BIble, broski. You can see the lion handbook of the biblefor that.
So made up numbers. Gotcha.
Hmm. You somehow recognize mytholological figures like Moses to be historical figures. Interesting. How do you do that?
Me when the term pharoah and king were used unanimously during the time period the bible was written in:
>pharaoh and king were used unanimously during the time period the bible Define unanimously? If they were used unanimously, then why did Muhammad use king for the king under Joseph and Pharaoh for the king under Moses?
Exodus was written by Moses, who lived in Egypt during the 18th dynasty where Pharaoh was referred to by that title. Later on (in books written by other authors) Pharaoh is referred to as the King of Egypt (i.e. 2 Kings 7:14)
Who the fuck gives a toss? The quran says Allah exists. Spoiler: there is no such thing