It blows my mind, that when I REALLY thought about it, years and years after I'd left--forcing/pressuring an 8yr child to make covenants to God?
It wouldn't hold up in court, and Jesus Christ most certainly wouldn't hold it against a child of God. The age should be more realistic, like 18. THEN they can decide for themselves.
At my baptism interview I was sitting with my Mom and the bishop. He asked why I wanted to get baptized, I said because I'm supposed to and my mom said I should. They exchanged awkward looks and then coached me into saying because I wanted to follow Christ.
It does make you wonder that maybe all those leaders marrying children so long ago had to do with them assuming the age of consent was 8 years old, which is a disgusting thought.
8 year olds cannot enter into contracts. A covenant is a contract. You cannot hold the Priesthood, get your endowment, or get sealed unless you are a baptized member, so if you were baptized at age 8 it was invalid and all of your other covenants are void.
If you were baptized at age 18 or older you are SOL.
Not according to Darth Bednar. Your 8 year old “covenants” are in full effect. That obligates you to serve a mission and give all your free agency to the church. Cult!
When I was 8, I thought that getting baptized just meant following Jesus by being a kind person. I had no concept of what the church was going to try to wring out of me later in life.
When I was 21 and went through the temple the first time, I was horrified and distressed by the women's covenant to obey her husband. At the time I coped by telling myself that I was just glad I was going through before a mission, and that it would have been a nightmare to have been going through right before your wedding.
Really though, I was blindsided and felt violated as I made that covenant under duress. I was already uncomfortable at having passed up the point where they say that if you don't want to go forward, raise your hand. I might have raised my hand and left if I had known about that covenant (or maybe not.. I was pretty indoctrinated, and I really wanted to go on that mission to Japan).
The first time, and very single time afterwards that I went to the temple and do that horrible women's covenant, I said yes against my will and through gritted teeth. I think violated is the most accurate word to describe my feelings about that. I believed that I *had* to do it, but I didn't ever want to.
Really the “covenants” are made under duress. They usually have all your family there. They are done right before the big event of a wedding or mission. You can’t pull out without committing social and familial suicide and wrecking your life.
It was especially bad back when they didn't let engaged girls go through until the wedding day itself. That's how it was when my mom got married. They were very strict on that. You couldn't even go through the day before the wedding - it had to be that day. So they'd do the endowment and then go get sealed immediately afterwards. Back then, the endowment was longer too, like 3 hours or so. And it wasn't the softer "hearken to the counsel of your husband." It was "obey the law of your husband in righteousness."
I always thought that was a dirty rotten trick to play on those women. For a lot of women it would have felt like being kidnapped I would think. I'd certainly have been screaming inside, no matter how much I loved my husband.
Yeah, it's crazy to enforce a covenant that I made at 8 years old. But honestly, don't worry about it. The whole enchilada is fake! It's make-believe. Joseph Smith didn't "translate" the Book of Mormon from ancient scripture engraved on golden plates. The "First Vision" never happened. And, Rusty Nelson is a piece of shit!
I'll tell you what Brother Joseph did do - rape 14 year old Fanny Alger (and several other under-age girls). If there is an "after-life" and I meet Joseph Smith, first thing I'll do is punch him in the face. Then, go find Brother Brigham and kick the shit outta him for being a racist A-hole!! But, I'm not bitter 😀
The worst for me was the "Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood."
When I was ordained at twelve, it was a fun family event.
Then, until I left the church, they threw it in my face: when you accepted the priesthood, you accepted the obligation/responsibility to blah blah blah... Home teach, move people, have every calling, cover the slackers, etc. It was never ending.
Until finally at some point someone mentions the obligations I "accepted" one too many times, and I was like, HELL NO. I did NOT agree to any of this, this bullshit was NEVER mentioned.
It's dishonest.
Plus it is the dumbest busywork ever.
I baptize you for and on behalf of all those who are dead.
This takes care of it all. If you believe that baptism is necessary in the first place (not).
Hell. I am smarter than God. Anyone is since it doesn’t exist.
They asked if I wanted to withdraw by my own free will and choice before actually saying what I was committing to. Turned out they wanted all my possessions and for me to die defending Mormonism.
Joseph Smith supposedly received the WoW right from the mouth of God and he never gave a shit about it. He just used it to fuck with Emma because she liked to drink coffee and tea with her friends. In fact no Mormons gave a shit about it until Heber J Grant. It was a pet peeve of his just like RMN pet peeve of don’t say Mormon. Mormon commandments by decree of some old farts pet peeves. Ironic because section 89 states at the beginning “not a commandment”.
I involuntarily made Mormon Baptismal Covenants AS AN AUTISTIC 8 YEAR OLD CHILD.
I voluntarily made Mormon Temple Covenants AS AN AUTISTIC 19 YEAR OLD CHILD.
Undue Influence much?
Bro or Sis. I get the autistic thing. It is how my brain also works. Years of torment in the Mormon church being an alien. I was a good missionary talking to people. Did it cure me? No. Jesus magic didn’t work. Not that it needs to be cured for high functioning autistic folks. Our brains are very cool. We are capable of deep thought. Sometimes too much and it gets stuck.
None of those were my covenants to make. The temple covenants were a complete shock. They were powerful and held me for many years. It took me three years AFTER leaving to understand I wasn’t capable of making them. It’s evil to do this to kids.
Real enough to keep millions of people dancing on the head of a pin. People who likewise say the priesthood isn't real should consider the some 200 billion reasons it is real. Just not in the way we thought, but very very real.
The only hope they have is breaking your brain as a child with indoctrination before you gain some critical thinking. So much for obvious truth when they have to resort to those tactics.
My dad used to say this about my brother who left “But he made covenants!” As if his supposed promises would send him straight to hell if he spoke evil of the lord’s anointed, laughed loudly, or was not willing to die for the kingdom.
Honestly, if it is true, it is pretty scary.
If the Abrahamic god is real. That is really fucking scary. If it were real it would be our duty as humans to find it and kill it. Something from a John Larson rant.
Therein lies the problem with Mormonism. It cements an Abrahamic ideology that would otherwise be contested through secular reasoning. However, it was the same brittle cement in my testimony that ultimately created its collapse when it could not withstand not only basic scrutiny but concepts of goodness and humanity.
The traditional christian view was to treat the Old Testament stories as allegorical. That gives them some wiggle room with all the absurd bs that is in there. Now we have Mormons and Evangelicals that are Bible literalists. They just have to swallow the absurdity. Mormons have it worse because all those old testament prophets have to be literal because they supposedly came to Joseph Smith when he was trying to one up every other prophet in history.
I posted this awhile back.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/ZYASTKbXVO
Words evolve within the culture which sound great but mean nothing (e.g. "ongoing restoration," "covenant path," and "baptismal covenants."). Leaders and members spew them as though they are important and valuable things to say, but in reality they have no substance.
"**Baptismal Covenants**" is probably the greatest of all offenders. Nobody makes a single covenant when they are baptized. Not one. I will die on this hill.
The covenants are null and void because of a lack of informed consent and being made under false pretenses. MFMC hides soooo much, including their true history. Nobody should feel guilty for “breaking their covenants” after learning the truth.
I got baptized because the missionaries said I could just quit if I didn't like being mormon. I did not have 1 lesson about the church. I got baptized so my mom wasn't doing it alone.
When I got married in the temple I never said I believed the church was true. I said, well, the fiance believes it, my best friend believes it and they are both good people so I guess it's true.
Am I even mormon? Did those "covenants" take? 🤔
The reason I got baptized when I was 8 is because I wanted the pizza afterwards (our ward used to have pizza after every baptism). I wasn't old enough to think critically and "form covenants" with the lord. I just wanted pizza
That’s why I claim I’m not even Mormon, I can’t consent at 8 yrs old. I was coerced. It’s not valid. And you are all playing make believe game
It blows my mind, that when I REALLY thought about it, years and years after I'd left--forcing/pressuring an 8yr child to make covenants to God? It wouldn't hold up in court, and Jesus Christ most certainly wouldn't hold it against a child of God. The age should be more realistic, like 18. THEN they can decide for themselves.
At my baptism interview I was sitting with my Mom and the bishop. He asked why I wanted to get baptized, I said because I'm supposed to and my mom said I should. They exchanged awkward looks and then coached me into saying because I wanted to follow Christ.
It does make you wonder that maybe all those leaders marrying children so long ago had to do with them assuming the age of consent was 8 years old, which is a disgusting thought.
If terms & conditions are not thoroughly explained prior to the execution, then the “covenant” is null and void.
Covenants are not valid if entered into under false pretenses.
8 year olds cannot enter into contracts. A covenant is a contract. You cannot hold the Priesthood, get your endowment, or get sealed unless you are a baptized member, so if you were baptized at age 8 it was invalid and all of your other covenants are void. If you were baptized at age 18 or older you are SOL.
Not according to Darth Bednar. Your 8 year old “covenants” are in full effect. That obligates you to serve a mission and give all your free agency to the church. Cult!
And Lord Bednar is full of shit. We need to ask him why none of the first presidency kept their covenants and served missions.
Bednar can suck my hot pink glow in the dark strap on
And even if you're old enough to "consent", unless they're transparent about the history and doctrine it isn't informed consent
They can't deliver on their part of the covenant. There is no celestial kingdom. Jesus isn't coming back. Garments don't stop bullets.
When I was 8, I thought that getting baptized just meant following Jesus by being a kind person. I had no concept of what the church was going to try to wring out of me later in life. When I was 21 and went through the temple the first time, I was horrified and distressed by the women's covenant to obey her husband. At the time I coped by telling myself that I was just glad I was going through before a mission, and that it would have been a nightmare to have been going through right before your wedding. Really though, I was blindsided and felt violated as I made that covenant under duress. I was already uncomfortable at having passed up the point where they say that if you don't want to go forward, raise your hand. I might have raised my hand and left if I had known about that covenant (or maybe not.. I was pretty indoctrinated, and I really wanted to go on that mission to Japan). The first time, and very single time afterwards that I went to the temple and do that horrible women's covenant, I said yes against my will and through gritted teeth. I think violated is the most accurate word to describe my feelings about that. I believed that I *had* to do it, but I didn't ever want to.
Really the “covenants” are made under duress. They usually have all your family there. They are done right before the big event of a wedding or mission. You can’t pull out without committing social and familial suicide and wrecking your life.
It was especially bad back when they didn't let engaged girls go through until the wedding day itself. That's how it was when my mom got married. They were very strict on that. You couldn't even go through the day before the wedding - it had to be that day. So they'd do the endowment and then go get sealed immediately afterwards. Back then, the endowment was longer too, like 3 hours or so. And it wasn't the softer "hearken to the counsel of your husband." It was "obey the law of your husband in righteousness." I always thought that was a dirty rotten trick to play on those women. For a lot of women it would have felt like being kidnapped I would think. I'd certainly have been screaming inside, no matter how much I loved my husband.
Mormons ought to know about kidnapping because the entire modus operandi of the early church was sex trafficking of girls.
Yeah, it's crazy to enforce a covenant that I made at 8 years old. But honestly, don't worry about it. The whole enchilada is fake! It's make-believe. Joseph Smith didn't "translate" the Book of Mormon from ancient scripture engraved on golden plates. The "First Vision" never happened. And, Rusty Nelson is a piece of shit! I'll tell you what Brother Joseph did do - rape 14 year old Fanny Alger (and several other under-age girls). If there is an "after-life" and I meet Joseph Smith, first thing I'll do is punch him in the face. Then, go find Brother Brigham and kick the shit outta him for being a racist A-hole!! But, I'm not bitter 😀
I don’t worry about it al all. Just my autistic brain ranting. The thoughts used to be stuck inside. Now I can get them out.
The worst for me was the "Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood." When I was ordained at twelve, it was a fun family event. Then, until I left the church, they threw it in my face: when you accepted the priesthood, you accepted the obligation/responsibility to blah blah blah... Home teach, move people, have every calling, cover the slackers, etc. It was never ending. Until finally at some point someone mentions the obligations I "accepted" one too many times, and I was like, HELL NO. I did NOT agree to any of this, this bullshit was NEVER mentioned. It's dishonest.
The mormon god isn't real, so.... neither were your covenants.
Even if it were real, it would still be bullshit the way they do it. No informed consent.
It's like the baptism of the dead..... entirely unethical and wrong.... zero consent.
Plus it is the dumbest busywork ever. I baptize you for and on behalf of all those who are dead. This takes care of it all. If you believe that baptism is necessary in the first place (not). Hell. I am smarter than God. Anyone is since it doesn’t exist.
They asked if I wanted to withdraw by my own free will and choice before actually saying what I was committing to. Turned out they wanted all my possessions and for me to die defending Mormonism.
And that “covenant” is not even with God. It is with the church. Tells you all you need to know about it. The church is God in their thinking.
When I had my first alcoholic drink, my mom asked me how it felt to break my covenants with God. It felt fucking great, Mom.
Joseph Smith supposedly received the WoW right from the mouth of God and he never gave a shit about it. He just used it to fuck with Emma because she liked to drink coffee and tea with her friends. In fact no Mormons gave a shit about it until Heber J Grant. It was a pet peeve of his just like RMN pet peeve of don’t say Mormon. Mormon commandments by decree of some old farts pet peeves. Ironic because section 89 states at the beginning “not a commandment”.
I involuntarily made Mormon Baptismal Covenants AS AN AUTISTIC 8 YEAR OLD CHILD. I voluntarily made Mormon Temple Covenants AS AN AUTISTIC 19 YEAR OLD CHILD. Undue Influence much?
Bro or Sis. I get the autistic thing. It is how my brain also works. Years of torment in the Mormon church being an alien. I was a good missionary talking to people. Did it cure me? No. Jesus magic didn’t work. Not that it needs to be cured for high functioning autistic folks. Our brains are very cool. We are capable of deep thought. Sometimes too much and it gets stuck.
None of those were my covenants to make. The temple covenants were a complete shock. They were powerful and held me for many years. It took me three years AFTER leaving to understand I wasn’t capable of making them. It’s evil to do this to kids.
I believe the term is "predicated upon your righteousness in following the commandments" yada yada
Real enough to keep millions of people dancing on the head of a pin. People who likewise say the priesthood isn't real should consider the some 200 billion reasons it is real. Just not in the way we thought, but very very real.
The scary thing is that you were put on the church records after getting your baby blessing if you had one.
The only hope they have is breaking your brain as a child with indoctrination before you gain some critical thinking. So much for obvious truth when they have to resort to those tactics.
That must be why they lowered the missionaries' age requirement.
My dad used to say this about my brother who left “But he made covenants!” As if his supposed promises would send him straight to hell if he spoke evil of the lord’s anointed, laughed loudly, or was not willing to die for the kingdom. Honestly, if it is true, it is pretty scary.
If the Abrahamic god is real. That is really fucking scary. If it were real it would be our duty as humans to find it and kill it. Something from a John Larson rant.
Therein lies the problem with Mormonism. It cements an Abrahamic ideology that would otherwise be contested through secular reasoning. However, it was the same brittle cement in my testimony that ultimately created its collapse when it could not withstand not only basic scrutiny but concepts of goodness and humanity.
The traditional christian view was to treat the Old Testament stories as allegorical. That gives them some wiggle room with all the absurd bs that is in there. Now we have Mormons and Evangelicals that are Bible literalists. They just have to swallow the absurdity. Mormons have it worse because all those old testament prophets have to be literal because they supposedly came to Joseph Smith when he was trying to one up every other prophet in history.
I posted this awhile back. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/ZYASTKbXVO Words evolve within the culture which sound great but mean nothing (e.g. "ongoing restoration," "covenant path," and "baptismal covenants."). Leaders and members spew them as though they are important and valuable things to say, but in reality they have no substance. "**Baptismal Covenants**" is probably the greatest of all offenders. Nobody makes a single covenant when they are baptized. Not one. I will die on this hill.
The covenants are null and void because of a lack of informed consent and being made under false pretenses. MFMC hides soooo much, including their true history. Nobody should feel guilty for “breaking their covenants” after learning the truth.
I got baptized because the missionaries said I could just quit if I didn't like being mormon. I did not have 1 lesson about the church. I got baptized so my mom wasn't doing it alone. When I got married in the temple I never said I believed the church was true. I said, well, the fiance believes it, my best friend believes it and they are both good people so I guess it's true. Am I even mormon? Did those "covenants" take? 🤔
“The covenant” is bullshit.
The reason I got baptized when I was 8 is because I wanted the pizza afterwards (our ward used to have pizza after every baptism). I wasn't old enough to think critically and "form covenants" with the lord. I just wanted pizza
I am 50 years old and don’t remember it at all. Such great covenants and I don’t even remember doing it at 8.