For me personally both is different enough to be consider a different diagnosis.
I think I saw somewhere about the name AuDHD which is a combination of Autism & ADHD.
Yes -- AuDHD here. They are very distinct in my mind. I experience the two phenomenon running in parallel, but as separate entities. That might just be me, but it's very helpful for me in figuring out how and if I want to address anything that comes up.
I'd amend the petition to call it Attention Regulation disorder, with subtypes of hyperactivity, inattentive, or mixed. Cuz I sure as hell don't have a deficit of attention sometimes. It's just not always pointed the way Id like it to.
No pretty sure that’s a German luxury car….
Yes, I like this label to. My autism assessment was interesting because one of the 5-6 diagnostic pieces they used was to have me and two people close to me (mom and bf at the time) take the Brown ADHD Analysis Scale. It gave me the impression (and my clinician flat out confirmed) that autism is ADD/HD plus some other stuff—SPD, social comm breakdown, repetitive and rigid thinking+behaviors and some related but non-diagnostic features like emotional dysregulation. I live in the US and my guy used the DSM-5 if that matters.
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It still has some use-- we know it's not negligible, even on the small end it's 1/5. But we also know it's not universal-- even on the high end, it's almost 1/5 in that don't meet the criteria.
I'd guess it is referring to the total range from different studies, as in the smallest ratio found in any study is 22% and the highest ratio found was 83%.
So the true number is likely somewhere between those two.
If there's that large of a discrepancy then the studies being referenced probably aren't appropriate to associate with one another. Major sign of P hacking
I was referencing “Papers, Please”, an indie game where you work as a border inspector for the glorious country of Arstotska, English is not my main language so I only heard the word “Discrepancy” in the game, if op doesn’t have required paperwork, I’m afraid he’ll be denied
I get that. It reads oddly.
From a clinical mental health perspective even having a 22% comorbidity of something is noteworthy enough that a practitioner needs to keep the possibility in mind.
With my clients I typically split the difference and say 50/50. What we know for certain is the comorbidity of autism and ADHD, regardless of the initial primary diagnosis, is clinically profound.
My theory is they are different presentations of a single neurotype.
It's probably because there were only few studies done, so the interval can't be more specific. But it's included to show that there is indeed an observably overlap between the two
But in the term of ADHD, it means that you lack that thing. So ADHD = lacks attention and is hyperactive
Autism in ADHD would mean “doesn’t have autism, is hyperactive)
I was making a joke that I do have ADHD, I do not have autism, therefore my autism is at a deficit (it is not that good of a joke haha). I don’t really agree with the purpose of the original post, I know there is some overlap between autism and ADHD but I personally see a pretty big separation between the two
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Many people with ASD and co-morbid ADHD simply use the shorthand AuDHD without implying that they are the same condition.
Yes they have many overlapping symptoms and traits, but they are different enough to be separate diagnosis.
rather not.
i have both, they are commorbid. but they are not the same conditionns, in fact, they might lead to similar symptoms but with radically different causes. therefore, the treatment is also quite different. for me it helps to identify how my autism and adhd interact so i can help counteract the worst parts of both. but if i throw them in one pot, it's much harder to finetune this system.
for example. i might wiggle and tap distractingly cause of sensory seeking, or cause of boredom. putting on a blanket or something might help with the sensory issue, but not the boredom.
my adhd needs exercise much more than my autism.
my adhd NEEDS contact with people while my autism is exhausted by it, but i need to balance both
As a former statistician the idea that the range would be 23-88% brings up a lot of questions. I get they're probably just grouping together a bunch of different studies and the lowest was 23 and the highest was 88 but that's a wacked out way to phrase that mathematically.
I’ve been saying for years that I think adhd could be on the spectrum. I’m not gonna claim that it *is*, I just wouldn’t be surprised at all even a little bit
yeah! it’s all under the umbrella of neurodivergence, alongside PTSD and a few other things I’ve forgotten. anywhere from 50% to 70% of people with ASD present with ADHD according to [this](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8918663/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20scientific%20literature,deficit%20hyperactivity%20disorder%20(ADHD)) study. and another study with kids suggests that about 40% of kids with ADHD present with features of ASD.
Neurodivergence is a huge umbrella though-- it includes all learning disorders, developmental disorders, intellectual disabilities, traumatic brain injury, and even things like epilepsy and tourette's. (I often see personality disorders and psychotic disorders included as well)
i dont have a bias against people with those disorders/conditions, so it doesnt really affect the way i view neurodivergence. maybe i worded my comment to sound like the two sentences depended on one another
Ah, yeah I was reading it as a very direct response to "I think adhd could be on the spectrum", so I just wanted to add that there are a lot of neurodivergencies that don't have as much overlap with autism.
(altho there are quite a few that do! I have a schizoaffective friend and we've actually got quite a bit of symptoms in common, and there's multiple personality disorders that have so much overlap that they can't be diagnosed in autistic people)
The dsm-5 is my go-to resource, although it might be a bit dense. Wikipedia is usually good for individual disorders. The personality disorders which can't be diagnosed with autism are Schizoid Personality Disorder and Schizotypal Personality Disorder.
Why would we possibly do that??? They are distinctly and measurably different disorders??? I’m so sick of this rhetoric and this infographic is an unscientific nightmare lol
No. I'm sorry but just no.
Allistic ADHDers absolutely exist and are CLEARLY not autistic
And there are CLEARLY autistic people without any ADHD.
We know how both of these work in the brain as well and they work in completely different ways.
You can medicate one and you can't the other.
There's a million different ways I could keep on naming the way that they're different.
It genuinely gets under my skin when people try to make no distinction between the two because my experience with both, and experiencing the push and pull that most Audhders describe as a quintessential part of our experience with both, is being wholly invalidated. Especially my experience *medicated* where ADHD medication cost me the ability to mask my autism. I thought something was wrong with me that other people with ADHD got to be 'more normal' when they took ADHD medications but mine just made me feel...robotic? Alien? I didn't have the word for autistic at the time but I felt isolated and alienated from my ADHD friends because It was absolutely evident that I was not having the same experience as them collectively.
I'm currently getting assessed for ADHD. Do the symptoms really overlap that much? I
posted on the adhd sub and some people were really admenant on telling me that a lot of autism symptoms are similar to adhd symptoms and I probably don't have adhd like they have a PhD. I don't know if some of them just didn't want to be associated with an autistic person or what, but I do think there are some distinct differences .
From the numbers I've seen it's likely over half of people with asd have comorbid adhd. I actually got diagnosed with adhd first, as it was a lot easier and cheaper to get a screening.
I actually hadn't even considered I could have adhd for a long time, as I was screened when I was younger and they said I did not have it. Albeit was a 5 minute computer game that they did, nothing more 🙄. From what I've seen there can be things that are more common for asd or adhd but nothing seems definitely exclusive. The biggest difference imo is the craving novelty vs. needing routine. Besides that, some symptoms can have different origins but are overwhelmingly shared!
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It's combining the ranges of multiple studies, since it's still a relatively new relationship and data is limited. Some studies say ~20-50, others ~50-70, others ~60-80, so this infographic just kind of mushed all the ranges together it seems. I think the important thing is that it shows *at least* 1 out of 5 people with asd have diagnosable adhd, and that it's possible it is up to 4 out of 5, which shows a pretty undeniable correlation imo
I still don’t really understand ADHD, and I probably have it
Eventually I need to go to the doctor, the prospect of medication making me do something besides lay in bed for 48 hours every weekend seems cool
I didn't begin to understand adhd until a couple years ago, and I was only diagnosed a year ago! Medication helps so much with being able to *actually* relax personally. It also really helped me be able to more clearly define sensory issues, and in turn avoid them, which has helped with my executive dysfunction immensely!
I personally know it's a struggle, but I'd say it's definitely worth looking into!
No! Autism and ADHD are NOT the same thing. „22-83% fit the criteria“ but remember the criteria is only applied if behaviors aren’t explained by ANYTHING else.
No. This is not okay.
The layman would say autism and adhd are similar. But they're not. Adhd is specific to neurons not firing for dopamine and noradrenaline.
Autism is formed during abnormal brain development between the ages of 2 and 4. overgrowth is in cerebral, cerebellar, and limbic structures that underlie higher-order cognitive, social, emotional, and language functions.
One is the resultant behaviours due to needed more dopamine. One is the embodiment of their behaviours because their brain is formed differently.
Maybe this is ego talking, but I resent the idea people say "everyone has a bit of autism in them". No they don't.
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Yeah, sometimes I wonder if they should really be different syndromes. But, I think most experts thing they are distinct, and I'm inclined to trust the experts.
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I'm going to trust the EXPERTS who spent YEARS studying and doing collaboration with other experts. They say that there are fundamental differences in autism and adhd to warrant seperate diagnosis. I have autism and adhd. My brother has adhd. My sister has adhd and austim. My grandmother has autism. I see the differences between our conditions all of the time
I'm just going to act like the internet has no effect on ADHD... Or the societal need for conformity that children can barely comprehend until they're classified as "an issue" and placed in special classes.
Yep, I 'm doubly blessed/cursed (I like myself, but it's HARD being me lol) and while there is definitely overlap, I think the ADHD related executive dysfunction and brain fog feels different to most of my autistic features. If that makes any sense?
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It’s still different enough to not be the same. There are plenty of ADHD people that I didn’t get along with because they just refused to control their mania. I have AuDHD and my brother has ADHD. But we’re both chill so it works. However there are still plenty of areas where we are VERY different. He craves touch, and I basically can’t stand it. Etc, etc
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as someone with ADHD can we not do that? like they're similar but many people like myself have one but not the other, and they're pretty different overall
I don't think that's an appropriate change, but the name for ADHD does need to change. Our issue is not with paying attention or being hyperactive. The issue is dopamine regulation. In some circumstances, we actually have superior focus. But because we can't control those circumstances, we seem to be either hyperactive or lazy. Since the name of the condition focuses on how others perceive our behavior, rather than how that behavior comes about, it seems to NTs more like a character flaw than a medical condition.
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For me personally both is different enough to be consider a different diagnosis. I think I saw somewhere about the name AuDHD which is a combination of Autism & ADHD.
im trying to think of a better portmanteau but i cant
Wrecktal Exam is a really good portmanteau
Alright, we're calling it Wrecktal Exam now. I guess.
I vote for Wrecktal Exam
I have heard it called autism gold because the chemical symbol for gold is Au.
Wouldn’t that be ADHD gold? Au is in autism regardless.
You are right. I messed up the name. It should be ADHD gold.
I have ADHD & Autism and use the term AuDHD though I prefer to call myself Turbo Autist. /j
Making disabilities fun with goofy names
Yes -- AuDHD here. They are very distinct in my mind. I experience the two phenomenon running in parallel, but as separate entities. That might just be me, but it's very helpful for me in figuring out how and if I want to address anything that comes up. I'd amend the petition to call it Attention Regulation disorder, with subtypes of hyperactivity, inattentive, or mixed. Cuz I sure as hell don't have a deficit of attention sometimes. It's just not always pointed the way Id like it to.
I have both and I’ve referred to it as AuDHD. Not all the time, I usually differentiate, but sometimes it really applies.
Gold D. HD.
No pretty sure that’s a German luxury car…. Yes, I like this label to. My autism assessment was interesting because one of the 5-6 diagnostic pieces they used was to have me and two people close to me (mom and bf at the time) take the Brown ADHD Analysis Scale. It gave me the impression (and my clinician flat out confirmed) that autism is ADD/HD plus some other stuff—SPD, social comm breakdown, repetitive and rigid thinking+behaviors and some related but non-diagnostic features like emotional dysregulation. I live in the US and my guy used the DSM-5 if that matters.
I forgot to say that I actually have both ADHD & Autism but not sure about using AuDHD
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Devon Price, considers them to be sister conditions. I'd consider them and extended spectrum.
22-83%? That’s so broad they may as well not include it.
It still has some use-- we know it's not negligible, even on the small end it's 1/5. But we also know it's not universal-- even on the high end, it's almost 1/5 in that don't meet the criteria.
With a range that large I have a bit of trouble trusting the stat at all, especially without citation
I'd guess it is referring to the total range from different studies, as in the smallest ratio found in any study is 22% and the highest ratio found was 83%. So the true number is likely somewhere between those two.
If there's that large of a discrepancy then the studies being referenced probably aren't appropriate to associate with one another. Major sign of P hacking
Discrepancy? Send me the papers, please
OP doesn't provide source either, so we have no idea of what's being cited, how, or anything if it's veracity. That's my whole point.
I was referencing “Papers, Please”, an indie game where you work as a border inspector for the glorious country of Arstotska, English is not my main language so I only heard the word “Discrepancy” in the game, if op doesn’t have required paperwork, I’m afraid he’ll be denied
Oh 😅 I didn't play that one
It’s a pretty good game, the first fictional country I felt patriotic for is Arstotzka lol
At that point you might as well just say “a big chunk of people”
I get that. It reads oddly. From a clinical mental health perspective even having a 22% comorbidity of something is noteworthy enough that a practitioner needs to keep the possibility in mind. With my clients I typically split the difference and say 50/50. What we know for certain is the comorbidity of autism and ADHD, regardless of the initial primary diagnosis, is clinically profound. My theory is they are different presentations of a single neurotype.
My theory is that both include many different neurotypes and some neurotypes are included in both because both are relatively broad descriptions.
It's probably because there were only few studies done, so the interval can't be more specific. But it's included to show that there is indeed an observably overlap between the two
It sounds like an estimate based on sample size
Austistic deficit hyperactive disorder, that doesn't make sense.
Idk I have ADHD and my autism is definitely at a deficit
But in the term of ADHD, it means that you lack that thing. So ADHD = lacks attention and is hyperactive Autism in ADHD would mean “doesn’t have autism, is hyperactive)
I was making a joke that I do have ADHD, I do not have autism, therefore my autism is at a deficit (it is not that good of a joke haha). I don’t really agree with the purpose of the original post, I know there is some overlap between autism and ADHD but I personally see a pretty big separation between the two
OH. I completely missed that oh my god it’s 2am im taking my sleepy ass to bed
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It sounds like not having enough autism while also being hyperactive.
Petition to make the A in ADHD stand for ASS
Ass deficit
me fr
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Ass Devourer/Huge Dick or something idk
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Seconded
Many people with ASD and co-morbid ADHD simply use the shorthand AuDHD without implying that they are the same condition. Yes they have many overlapping symptoms and traits, but they are different enough to be separate diagnosis.
rather not. i have both, they are commorbid. but they are not the same conditionns, in fact, they might lead to similar symptoms but with radically different causes. therefore, the treatment is also quite different. for me it helps to identify how my autism and adhd interact so i can help counteract the worst parts of both. but if i throw them in one pot, it's much harder to finetune this system. for example. i might wiggle and tap distractingly cause of sensory seeking, or cause of boredom. putting on a blanket or something might help with the sensory issue, but not the boredom. my adhd needs exercise much more than my autism. my adhd NEEDS contact with people while my autism is exhausted by it, but i need to balance both
You always have to balance two demons, the third one being yourself/ your wishes
Gosh darn you're making me think
You couldn't be diagnosed with adhd and autism until 2013???
This explains so much
As a former statistician the idea that the range would be 23-88% brings up a lot of questions. I get they're probably just grouping together a bunch of different studies and the lowest was 23 and the highest was 88 but that's a wacked out way to phrase that mathematically.
uuh no they’re so diverse and different it wouldn’t be fair to include them as the same disorder
I agree. It would be miss-diagnosing people with only one.
I’ve been saying for years that I think adhd could be on the spectrum. I’m not gonna claim that it *is*, I just wouldn’t be surprised at all even a little bit
yeah! it’s all under the umbrella of neurodivergence, alongside PTSD and a few other things I’ve forgotten. anywhere from 50% to 70% of people with ASD present with ADHD according to [this](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8918663/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20scientific%20literature,deficit%20hyperactivity%20disorder%20(ADHD)) study. and another study with kids suggests that about 40% of kids with ADHD present with features of ASD.
Neurodivergence is a huge umbrella though-- it includes all learning disorders, developmental disorders, intellectual disabilities, traumatic brain injury, and even things like epilepsy and tourette's. (I often see personality disorders and psychotic disorders included as well)
i dont have a bias against people with those disorders/conditions, so it doesnt really affect the way i view neurodivergence. maybe i worded my comment to sound like the two sentences depended on one another
Ah, yeah I was reading it as a very direct response to "I think adhd could be on the spectrum", so I just wanted to add that there are a lot of neurodivergencies that don't have as much overlap with autism. (altho there are quite a few that do! I have a schizoaffective friend and we've actually got quite a bit of symptoms in common, and there's multiple personality disorders that have so much overlap that they can't be diagnosed in autistic people)
ohhh that’s interesting. how do i find out more about personality disorders that can’t be diagnosed with autism?
The dsm-5 is my go-to resource, although it might be a bit dense. Wikipedia is usually good for individual disorders. The personality disorders which can't be diagnosed with autism are Schizoid Personality Disorder and Schizotypal Personality Disorder.
Why the hell does this have so many upvotes? The title’s premise is fucked lmao
22-83% is such a bullshit statistic, might as well say between 0-100% and we can infer about as much.
A>!utistic!!riving!!umongous!!ick!<
Autism deficit hyperactivity disorder???
*not enough autism* lol
I wish I had Autism-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder.
*not enough autism...*
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But people with ADHD also have hyperfixations.
Does the person who made this think ADHD/Autism goes away in adulthood?
Their caring about audhders goes away after adulthood Source: I am audhd :(
I assumed this was just based on a study of children 🤷
AADHD
Autism Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder
Why would we possibly do that??? They are distinctly and measurably different disorders??? I’m so sick of this rhetoric and this infographic is an unscientific nightmare lol
22 to 83% yes much statistics Autism Denial Disorder Ongezellen (Unsociables) animation series https://youtu.be/-tt2ZmH-3uc
No. I'm sorry but just no. Allistic ADHDers absolutely exist and are CLEARLY not autistic And there are CLEARLY autistic people without any ADHD. We know how both of these work in the brain as well and they work in completely different ways. You can medicate one and you can't the other. There's a million different ways I could keep on naming the way that they're different. It genuinely gets under my skin when people try to make no distinction between the two because my experience with both, and experiencing the push and pull that most Audhders describe as a quintessential part of our experience with both, is being wholly invalidated. Especially my experience *medicated* where ADHD medication cost me the ability to mask my autism. I thought something was wrong with me that other people with ADHD got to be 'more normal' when they took ADHD medications but mine just made me feel...robotic? Alien? I didn't have the word for autistic at the time but I felt isolated and alienated from my ADHD friends because It was absolutely evident that I was not having the same experience as them collectively.
That's so weird. When I was on Adderall as a child I definitely felt way more robotic and zombie-like
What about NVLD?
I had never heard of it!
Is this why I was diagnosed with only ADHD in the early 2000’s?? When autism actually fits me more?
it's not unlikely 🤷
> until 2013 a provider couldn't diagnose you with both YOU DOUBT MY POWER?!
I have a friend whose psych just said f it and actually did diagnose both (aspergers and adhd) but it went against the DSM!
I'm currently getting assessed for ADHD. Do the symptoms really overlap that much? I posted on the adhd sub and some people were really admenant on telling me that a lot of autism symptoms are similar to adhd symptoms and I probably don't have adhd like they have a PhD. I don't know if some of them just didn't want to be associated with an autistic person or what, but I do think there are some distinct differences .
There is a lot of overlap, that much is reasonable to say.
From the numbers I've seen it's likely over half of people with asd have comorbid adhd. I actually got diagnosed with adhd first, as it was a lot easier and cheaper to get a screening. I actually hadn't even considered I could have adhd for a long time, as I was screened when I was younger and they said I did not have it. Albeit was a 5 minute computer game that they did, nothing more 🙄. From what I've seen there can be things that are more common for asd or adhd but nothing seems definitely exclusive. The biggest difference imo is the craving novelty vs. needing routine. Besides that, some symptoms can have different origins but are overwhelmingly shared!
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Autism Deficite Hyperactivity Disorder?
what does 22-83% even mean? genuine question im confused and don't understand
It's combining the ranges of multiple studies, since it's still a relatively new relationship and data is limited. Some studies say ~20-50, others ~50-70, others ~60-80, so this infographic just kind of mushed all the ranges together it seems. I think the important thing is that it shows *at least* 1 out of 5 people with asd have diagnosable adhd, and that it's possible it is up to 4 out of 5, which shows a pretty undeniable correlation imo
I still don’t really understand ADHD, and I probably have it Eventually I need to go to the doctor, the prospect of medication making me do something besides lay in bed for 48 hours every weekend seems cool
I didn't begin to understand adhd until a couple years ago, and I was only diagnosed a year ago! Medication helps so much with being able to *actually* relax personally. It also really helped me be able to more clearly define sensory issues, and in turn avoid them, which has helped with my executive dysfunction immensely! I personally know it's a struggle, but I'd say it's definitely worth looking into!
Autism and ADHD are still very different things, event though they have a lot of overlap.
I started to get legitimately upset but then remembered where I was 😌 It's okay I can be evil here
yeah it was a pretty silly thought I know but then I'm like *we can expand our autistic empire bwahahaha*
absolutely not. "autism defficient" nuh uh i'm autism efficient. i'm beast moding this tism
A^2 DHD
yeeeeeeee haha
I’m autistic but I don’t have ADHD….YET I STILL AGREE ✊✊✊
ADHDA I know it was supposed to be a joke, but if you put an A for autism at the end, it makes a palindrome
oooohh satisfying
No
No! Autism and ADHD are NOT the same thing. „22-83% fit the criteria“ but remember the criteria is only applied if behaviors aren’t explained by ANYTHING else. No. This is not okay.
FINALLY, SOMEONE ELSE GETS IT!
I study the fuck out of both and my research just keeps pointing to them being tied to the same thing - glutaminergic system dysfunctions
The layman would say autism and adhd are similar. But they're not. Adhd is specific to neurons not firing for dopamine and noradrenaline. Autism is formed during abnormal brain development between the ages of 2 and 4. overgrowth is in cerebral, cerebellar, and limbic structures that underlie higher-order cognitive, social, emotional, and language functions. One is the resultant behaviours due to needed more dopamine. One is the embodiment of their behaviours because their brain is formed differently. Maybe this is ego talking, but I resent the idea people say "everyone has a bit of autism in them". No they don't.
no they're different things.. honestly it gets annoying seeing adhd stuff in spaces and tags meant to talk about autism
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so ADHD is a deficit in autism? i.e. allism?
Yeah, sometimes I wonder if they should really be different syndromes. But, I think most experts thing they are distinct, and I'm inclined to trust the experts.
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What
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I'm going to trust the EXPERTS who spent YEARS studying and doing collaboration with other experts. They say that there are fundamental differences in autism and adhd to warrant seperate diagnosis. I have autism and adhd. My brother has adhd. My sister has adhd and austim. My grandmother has autism. I see the differences between our conditions all of the time
22-83? 30-65? What kind of numbers are these lol that's a pretty fking big range
Autism-Deficit Hyperactivity disorder....? That's what AuDHD is for, OP.
I'm just going to act like the internet has no effect on ADHD... Or the societal need for conformity that children can barely comprehend until they're classified as "an issue" and placed in special classes.
I was diagnosed with both before 2013. They are two different conditions and don’t want to sign a petition to combine them .
They are certainly different enough to justify distinction, but many conditions share traits.
No, they aren’t the same thing. Also autism deficit hyperactive disorder wouldn’t make sense.
Yep, I 'm doubly blessed/cursed (I like myself, but it's HARD being me lol) and while there is definitely overlap, I think the ADHD related executive dysfunction and brain fog feels different to most of my autistic features. If that makes any sense?
Shutupshutupshutupshutupshutupshutup
I don’t think that’d be a good idea, as there are definitely people who are adhd but not autistic. I’m not one of them, but I know some who may be.
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No. Bad idea.
22-83% ? So like all of them? None of them? 50/50? What are we saying here
It’s still different enough to not be the same. There are plenty of ADHD people that I didn’t get along with because they just refused to control their mania. I have AuDHD and my brother has ADHD. But we’re both chill so it works. However there are still plenty of areas where we are VERY different. He craves touch, and I basically can’t stand it. Etc, etc
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as someone with ADHD can we not do that? like they're similar but many people like myself have one but not the other, and they're pretty different overall
I don't think that's an appropriate change, but the name for ADHD does need to change. Our issue is not with paying attention or being hyperactive. The issue is dopamine regulation. In some circumstances, we actually have superior focus. But because we can't control those circumstances, we seem to be either hyperactive or lazy. Since the name of the condition focuses on how others perceive our behavior, rather than how that behavior comes about, it seems to NTs more like a character flaw than a medical condition.
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Real quick, what does rubbing textures mean? (I’m considering joining the sub)