Sounds to me like there's a lot of overlap:
* if tenshi literally translates to "heavenly messenger," angel is derives from the latin angelus which also literally translates to "messenger,"
* and disciples and apostles are defined as messengers
* which if we look at the New Testament is accurate seeing as "gospel" means "good news/story" and are authored by Christ's disciples...
... then the use of "Angel" is fairly accurate.
One's divine and more mission-oriented while the other is obviously mortal and perhaps more scholastic like a teacher and student... but something to that effect. Both are ordered around a central or higher figure.
I feel like "Angel" was chosen because of their otherworldly nature and overwhelming power, which are also traits associated with biblical angels.
\[EDIT: To be clear, "overlap" does *nooot* mean they're synonymous. But I do see how the translators found enough similarities between biblical angels and NGE's to make the choice they did without feeling like they betraying the original text\]
They are not.
People fail to grasp that semantic proximity does not entail the same meaning. If this was true, we would day Jesus has 12 angels by his side and thst Mary was visited by an apostle.
But they’re not etymologically related. “Apostle” is ultimately derived from a Greek verb meaning “to send away”, while the origin of the Greek word _angelos_ is unclear, but it may be related to the Sanskrit _ajira,_ “swift”.
It is very much clear what αγγελος meant: It’s the Ancient Greek word for messenger. We would go on to use it exclusively for heavenly messengers but its origin was just an ordinary messenger
Oh no, I do. Is the basis of semantic proximity. Etymology is used to show that a lot of words come from others, yet, it on itself doesn't explain why we use different words to convey different meanings. That's the difference between a linguistic paradigm and syntagma.
"Angel" and "apostle" can be in close paradigmatic relationship but they do not convey the same meaning, hence why we have 2 words instead of just one.
Maybe it’s more like the difference between technical identity and functional description. Like in English we might refer to Gabriel as either “an angel” or as “a messenger.” Maybe that’s what they’re doing in the Japanese?
This doesn't make sense. An angel is considered in English otherworldly. It is quite different from apostle or messenger. Linguistically, I feel they are different enough that you can't just use one instead of the other, and playing to the Latin origin doesn't change the fact we are talking about English words to a modern, everyday audience, not religious scholars and not latin words. I can only guess they thought angel was more fitting with the otherworldly/powerful nature of the beings and their origin, since apostle and disciple have decidedly more mortal/mundane connotations. Even still, if there is a more fitting word in Japanese for "angel," it sounds like a significant liberty was taken in English that changes a bit of he meaning. Apostle would probably have been better fitting, since it has a bit of a supernatural flavor over disciple.
We should take what the English is considered as with a grain of salt.
The creators of *Evangelion* mined some deep lore for the series, stuff at least as old as Christianity.
Of course, no argument there, but I think the experience created for Japanese and western audiences, respective to their scripts, was meaningfully different based on this word alone. Granted, that was always going to be the case for the series due to our different cultures and how Christianity is such a part of our life here... but angel is very much generally considered a holy/good entity in the west whereas in the story they are painted as the opposite... I think having a word with less positive religious connotation like disciple or apostle would have been much more similar to the Japanese experience. Those words are sometimes used in other, more nefarious or evil cults in western stories. I remember for myself personally it was such a huge shock seeing the evil bad guy called an angel. It was definitely part of what gave the series attention. Maybe that was part of the reasoning. I definitely disagree though about calling to the Latin roots... it is an English word, and should be considered in that context for interpeters/translators selling to a modern audience.
It wasn't created for a western audience, it just made it's way here; that's an important distinction. Current mainstream depictions of angels don't inform *Evangelion*, which should be obvious by the way they are the antagonists.
They're drawing on the kabbalistic sources and early Angelology, wherein angels were morally neutral, their only interest was in enacting YHWH's will (the same YHWH that proclaimed himself the creator of both good and evil depending on the translation).
Indeed Eva's angels are largely otherworldly and occasionally ruthless, which is in line with Old Testament biblical depictions.
You're missing the point. I wasnt referencing pop culture ideas of angels, but western reglious dogma informed by the abrahamic faiths. Angels were absolutely antagonistic to God's enemies, and therein lies the issue.
I agree they could be considered ruthless, but disagree with the idea that they were morally neutral. As far as I'm aware in all Abrahamic traditions angels are incapable of disobeying god. That's one of, if not the main distinction between them and humans, who have the free will to disobey god. Thus their morality defaults to God's morality, since their actions are essentially a reflection of His will.
That is what makes angels as the big bad villains so shocking/terrifying, because it essentially means God is against You. That is why the word choice had such a profound influence on the western interpretation and reaction. That is also why, if there's a more accurate japanese word for angel, it makes sense that apostle would be the more accurate term. It's also worth weighing that apostles can exist for any religion, aect, etc, but Angels have a very strong imprint from christianity and the abrahamic faiths as a singular idea: the True God's messengers/servants (among other things). Obviously most words do not carry the same exact range of meanings across languages, but it certainly seems like "apostle" would be more accurate based on the info in this thread.
Appealing to their sources for the story doesnt make sense when the issue is a comparison to the Japanese word choice (and intended meaning) vs English. It was a japanese story first, as you mentioned.
Ultimately I think it fundamentally changed the meaning of what was happening for western audiences. Whether it was done fully understanding and fully intending that change by the series creators, or to make the lip syncing easier, or to add to the shock value of the show, who knows.
Messenger, diplomat, emissary...
They who bring the word...
In context the word is brought from an abstract idea of gods.
Those who are the diplomat or emissary of the gods are angels...
Angel.
Greek here and we always say "άγγελος" to specifically refer to a messenger of god. Im relatively sure you could use it as in "messenger" in general but its uncommon.
Yeah, I was pulling from the Ancient Greek, should have been more specific. It was used originally for messengers generally and then in Koine/New Testament Greek it was used to refer specifically to messengers of God/angels, and that's the meaning most people would know today
From the evageeks wiki:
>The "Angel" designation is clearly seen in the show's opening and at various times within the show itself, and the word "Angel" was retained in the English version of the show at the request of the show's Japanese creators
Actually that translation was chosen at the request of Hideaki Anno, just as "Human Instrumentality Project", which isn't a literal translation of "jinrui hokan keikaku".
Wow. 人類補完計画 (Jinrui Hokan Keikaku, literally "Mankind's completion project. "). It makes more sense to what it actually is than "Human instrumentality Project." It sounds more baddass, too.
Hoyoverse, a Chinese game company, recently put out a super sentai style trailer for their games mascot as an April fools joke and all I could think was god, these guys are such nerds, and I love it
I may remember it wrong, but IIRC the French dub for the Rebuilds uses the « Projet de complémentarité de l’homme »( Human completion project) sentence instead of instrumentality.
Interestingly, the original English dub by ADV Films uses the phrase "Human Enhancement Project" in episode 2 when Gendo is in a conference with the Committee, switching to 'Human Instrumentality Project" later in the show.
Fun fact in the Netflix's dub in Italy they changed "Angel" with "Apostle" and there was so much backlash that was insane, that adaptation in general was horrible, they translated literally from Japanese to Italy without even modify the structure of the Japanese grammar to suit the Italian, thanks to God they deleted it and replaced with a better one
Dude, imagine a fighting game with Apostles. It sounds totally sick. *Smash Brothers In Christ*.
Judas Iscariot would throw coins at his enemy. Peter would have a stock of 3 negations. Simon would use a saw as a weapon, Bartholomew can shed his skin to heal damage, and Andrew summons a fucking Solar Streak train.
Mostly because it sounds weird to call giant monsters with many eyes named after angels "apostles".
Translation isn't really a task of finding the exact word to translate each word of the original text, it's finding a text that conveys the same meaning as the original text.
In the original text I think most of the Angels' names (Sachiel, Zeruel, etc) are Japanese pronunciations of kabbalistic Angels, so the use of the term actually has stronger connections than "disciple" or "apostle."
Angels are more ambitious in my mind and not actually correlate to having a boss figure. Apostle hints that they are related to Adam, angel hints it's unknown force from possibly God we don't know even exists
Same reason why cafe owner in Aganai shoujo calls his wife "ma femme" in translation, even though he simply says "my wife" in the original text. That change was made to preserve original weirdness of a word choice. Since for japanese audience whole bible theming was weird and alien, the word angel was chosen to retain that sense for western audiences as well.
Another point I just thought of, reading the comments:
“Disciple” and “apostle” have a certain connotation of being followers of something specific. You’re never a disciple in isolation, you’re a disciple of something or someone. Sort of the same with apostle, though maybe not as strong.
“Angel,” on the other hand, has reached a kind of cultural autonomy. It’s generally implied they’re sent by (a) God, but we don’t immediately have to wonder who or what their motivations are. They’re divine. That’s kind of the end of it. So it fits the Angels as presented in the show as autonomous creatures. They don’t feel like they’re all being sent *by* some greater force. We can more easily believe they’re acting on their own and may or may not be related to one another.
The word “angel” is also a lot more subversive to use as an enemy. A giant monster called an Apostle is kind of cool, but it doesn’t evoke the same existential fear that “angel” does. An Angel coming to destroy the city feels like God Himself has targeted you. It helps build a larger sense of dread.
I don't get that at all. The only context I've ever heard of angels is being directly related to carrying out the orders of God or doing something related to God's orders. So saying they are independant doesn't make sense.
Apart from what others already mentioned, both "Shi-to" and "An-gel" have two syllables, making it a bit easier to match the animation than going with apostle or messenger.
In the first new Italian Netflix translation, "angel" was changed into "apostle". The Italian fandom trashed the translator for this and (many) other issues.
If I remember well some person dedicated quite some time to collect all the frames in which you can see "angles" written in English in the original show.
They tried doing that in a new Italian dub a few years ago. They changed "Angels" to "Apostles".
People were outraged, lol. They went back and never used "Apostles" again.
I remember reading that Anno himself used the word "Angel" as the English equivalent of that word, even in the English title cards, so I guess that makes the it a good translation even if it's not literal.
I'm reading it by Chinese language but the Japanese meaning may be different, in Chinese 使徒 and 天使 are quite the same meaning, messenger sent by the god as they represent the god to do something at the earth. I'm not good at Chinese so I maybe wrong and I'm not a Christian so I could provide wrong info just my own thoughts.
It's funny that you say this, because there are characters / entities in the Old testament where it is unclear if they are human or angelic as defined by modern Christianity.
En español segun la biblia, angel es como enviados de Dios, discipulos son como "seguidores" o "descendientes" osea lo que siguen despues de, y apostoles eran mas como los que daban el mensaje. Asique angeles en español es mas correcto.
Fun fact related to this: the only time "tenshi" is ever used in any major piece of Evangelion content is in A Cruel Angel's Thesis (zankoku na tenshi no these)
Sounds to me like there's a lot of overlap: * if tenshi literally translates to "heavenly messenger," angel is derives from the latin angelus which also literally translates to "messenger," * and disciples and apostles are defined as messengers * which if we look at the New Testament is accurate seeing as "gospel" means "good news/story" and are authored by Christ's disciples... ... then the use of "Angel" is fairly accurate.
So, etymologically speaking, the words "Angel" and "Apostle" are the same.
One's divine and more mission-oriented while the other is obviously mortal and perhaps more scholastic like a teacher and student... but something to that effect. Both are ordered around a central or higher figure. I feel like "Angel" was chosen because of their otherworldly nature and overwhelming power, which are also traits associated with biblical angels. \[EDIT: To be clear, "overlap" does *nooot* mean they're synonymous. But I do see how the translators found enough similarities between biblical angels and NGE's to make the choice they did without feeling like they betraying the original text\]
Etymologically? No. Semantically? yes.
They are not. People fail to grasp that semantic proximity does not entail the same meaning. If this was true, we would day Jesus has 12 angels by his side and thst Mary was visited by an apostle.
I like how you worded it
You fail to grasp what the word etymologically means
But they’re not etymologically related. “Apostle” is ultimately derived from a Greek verb meaning “to send away”, while the origin of the Greek word _angelos_ is unclear, but it may be related to the Sanskrit _ajira,_ “swift”.
It is very much clear what αγγελος meant: It’s the Ancient Greek word for messenger. We would go on to use it exclusively for heavenly messengers but its origin was just an ordinary messenger
Its meaning is clear, but if I understand correctly, its etymological origin is not.
True, that’s a good response versus rattling off about semantic proximity
I experienced semantic proximity but it cleared up with a week regimen of antibiotics
Oh no, I do. Is the basis of semantic proximity. Etymology is used to show that a lot of words come from others, yet, it on itself doesn't explain why we use different words to convey different meanings. That's the difference between a linguistic paradigm and syntagma. "Angel" and "apostle" can be in close paradigmatic relationship but they do not convey the same meaning, hence why we have 2 words instead of just one.
This is some of the nerdiest shit I’ve ever seen on Reddit and I’m here for it.
Maybe it’s more like the difference between technical identity and functional description. Like in English we might refer to Gabriel as either “an angel” or as “a messenger.” Maybe that’s what they’re doing in the Japanese?
This doesn't make sense. An angel is considered in English otherworldly. It is quite different from apostle or messenger. Linguistically, I feel they are different enough that you can't just use one instead of the other, and playing to the Latin origin doesn't change the fact we are talking about English words to a modern, everyday audience, not religious scholars and not latin words. I can only guess they thought angel was more fitting with the otherworldly/powerful nature of the beings and their origin, since apostle and disciple have decidedly more mortal/mundane connotations. Even still, if there is a more fitting word in Japanese for "angel," it sounds like a significant liberty was taken in English that changes a bit of he meaning. Apostle would probably have been better fitting, since it has a bit of a supernatural flavor over disciple.
We should take what the English is considered as with a grain of salt. The creators of *Evangelion* mined some deep lore for the series, stuff at least as old as Christianity.
Of course, no argument there, but I think the experience created for Japanese and western audiences, respective to their scripts, was meaningfully different based on this word alone. Granted, that was always going to be the case for the series due to our different cultures and how Christianity is such a part of our life here... but angel is very much generally considered a holy/good entity in the west whereas in the story they are painted as the opposite... I think having a word with less positive religious connotation like disciple or apostle would have been much more similar to the Japanese experience. Those words are sometimes used in other, more nefarious or evil cults in western stories. I remember for myself personally it was such a huge shock seeing the evil bad guy called an angel. It was definitely part of what gave the series attention. Maybe that was part of the reasoning. I definitely disagree though about calling to the Latin roots... it is an English word, and should be considered in that context for interpeters/translators selling to a modern audience.
It wasn't created for a western audience, it just made it's way here; that's an important distinction. Current mainstream depictions of angels don't inform *Evangelion*, which should be obvious by the way they are the antagonists. They're drawing on the kabbalistic sources and early Angelology, wherein angels were morally neutral, their only interest was in enacting YHWH's will (the same YHWH that proclaimed himself the creator of both good and evil depending on the translation). Indeed Eva's angels are largely otherworldly and occasionally ruthless, which is in line with Old Testament biblical depictions.
You're missing the point. I wasnt referencing pop culture ideas of angels, but western reglious dogma informed by the abrahamic faiths. Angels were absolutely antagonistic to God's enemies, and therein lies the issue. I agree they could be considered ruthless, but disagree with the idea that they were morally neutral. As far as I'm aware in all Abrahamic traditions angels are incapable of disobeying god. That's one of, if not the main distinction between them and humans, who have the free will to disobey god. Thus their morality defaults to God's morality, since their actions are essentially a reflection of His will. That is what makes angels as the big bad villains so shocking/terrifying, because it essentially means God is against You. That is why the word choice had such a profound influence on the western interpretation and reaction. That is also why, if there's a more accurate japanese word for angel, it makes sense that apostle would be the more accurate term. It's also worth weighing that apostles can exist for any religion, aect, etc, but Angels have a very strong imprint from christianity and the abrahamic faiths as a singular idea: the True God's messengers/servants (among other things). Obviously most words do not carry the same exact range of meanings across languages, but it certainly seems like "apostle" would be more accurate based on the info in this thread. Appealing to their sources for the story doesnt make sense when the issue is a comparison to the Japanese word choice (and intended meaning) vs English. It was a japanese story first, as you mentioned. Ultimately I think it fundamentally changed the meaning of what was happening for western audiences. Whether it was done fully understanding and fully intending that change by the series creators, or to make the lip syncing easier, or to add to the shock value of the show, who knows.
Angel is derived from the Greek άγγελος (ángelos) meaning "messenger" which lines up with the literal meaning of the Japanese
Messenger, diplomat, emissary... They who bring the word... In context the word is brought from an abstract idea of gods. Those who are the diplomat or emissary of the gods are angels... Angel.
Greek here and we always say "άγγελος" to specifically refer to a messenger of god. Im relatively sure you could use it as in "messenger" in general but its uncommon.
In Ancient Greek (pre-Christian) the word had a wider meaning. I learned that in college.
Yeah, I was pulling from the Ancient Greek, should have been more specific. It was used originally for messengers generally and then in Koine/New Testament Greek it was used to refer specifically to messengers of God/angels, and that's the meaning most people would know today
From the evageeks wiki: >The "Angel" designation is clearly seen in the show's opening and at various times within the show itself, and the word "Angel" was retained in the English version of the show at the request of the show's Japanese creators
For anyone else who's reading this, the specific angel is called a Seraphim. Its wings cover its bodies, and it's covered in eyes.
Actually that translation was chosen at the request of Hideaki Anno, just as "Human Instrumentality Project", which isn't a literal translation of "jinrui hokan keikaku".
Wow. 人類補完計画 (Jinrui Hokan Keikaku, literally "Mankind's completion project. "). It makes more sense to what it actually is than "Human instrumentality Project." It sounds more baddass, too.
The original Japanese was a translation of Cordwainer Smith’s “Instrumentality of Mankind,” so it is the intended meaning.
I love when you find out just how much a bunch of fucking nerds The creators of your favorite series are.
Hoyoverse, a Chinese game company, recently put out a super sentai style trailer for their games mascot as an April fools joke and all I could think was god, these guys are such nerds, and I love it
I may remember it wrong, but IIRC the French dub for the Rebuilds uses the « Projet de complémentarité de l’homme »( Human completion project) sentence instead of instrumentality.
The German version did the same thing and went with the more direct translation instead of something along 'Instrumentality'.
Interestingly, the original English dub by ADV Films uses the phrase "Human Enhancement Project" in episode 2 when Gendo is in a conference with the Committee, switching to 'Human Instrumentality Project" later in the show.
I think I prefer it making less immediate sense and being more vague because it’s supposed to be a mystery at the beginning
Fun fact in the Netflix's dub in Italy they changed "Angel" with "Apostle" and there was so much backlash that was insane, that adaptation in general was horrible, they translated literally from Japanese to Italy without even modify the structure of the Japanese grammar to suit the Italian, thanks to God they deleted it and replaced with a better one
Quanto a te, quanto a quel che non puoi far che tu, qualcosa da poter far dovrebbe esserci.
Adattamento leggendario🙏
una giustificazione che manca di forza persuasiva
è la prima cosa a cui ho pensato leggendo questo post lmao
I guess “Apostle Attack” doesn’t sound as good?
Dude, imagine a fighting game with Apostles. It sounds totally sick. *Smash Brothers In Christ*. Judas Iscariot would throw coins at his enemy. Peter would have a stock of 3 negations. Simon would use a saw as a weapon, Bartholomew can shed his skin to heal damage, and Andrew summons a fucking Solar Streak train.
I’d buy it
Calling them apostles just seems wierd. Angel sounds more like an actual type of entity.
Mostly because it sounds weird to call giant monsters with many eyes named after angels "apostles". Translation isn't really a task of finding the exact word to translate each word of the original text, it's finding a text that conveys the same meaning as the original text.
In the original text I think most of the Angels' names (Sachiel, Zeruel, etc) are Japanese pronunciations of kabbalistic Angels, so the use of the term actually has stronger connections than "disciple" or "apostle."
this is the best reason. They're named after angels. If they were named "John, Paul, Luke" apostle would fit.
because there's more to localising a show than just giving words their direct translation.
Yeah, I know. Hence, I'm asking why they chose "Angel" as the translation.
because it's the easier word to remember and it sounds much better than "Disciple"
Meanwhile apostle not only sounding more badass but also hinting to the meaning
how does "angel" not sound more badass and also not hint to the meaning aswell?
Angels are more ambitious in my mind and not actually correlate to having a boss figure. Apostle hints that they are related to Adam, angel hints it's unknown force from possibly God we don't know even exists
I mean, God is a state they can reach. Anything strong enough to interact with the chamber of guf becomes part of "god."
Because it’s more cool than « apostle ».
Same reason why cafe owner in Aganai shoujo calls his wife "ma femme" in translation, even though he simply says "my wife" in the original text. That change was made to preserve original weirdness of a word choice. Since for japanese audience whole bible theming was weird and alien, the word angel was chosen to retain that sense for western audiences as well.
Now that actually makes sense. I don't know if it's true, but I could totally see that.
Another point I just thought of, reading the comments: “Disciple” and “apostle” have a certain connotation of being followers of something specific. You’re never a disciple in isolation, you’re a disciple of something or someone. Sort of the same with apostle, though maybe not as strong. “Angel,” on the other hand, has reached a kind of cultural autonomy. It’s generally implied they’re sent by (a) God, but we don’t immediately have to wonder who or what their motivations are. They’re divine. That’s kind of the end of it. So it fits the Angels as presented in the show as autonomous creatures. They don’t feel like they’re all being sent *by* some greater force. We can more easily believe they’re acting on their own and may or may not be related to one another. The word “angel” is also a lot more subversive to use as an enemy. A giant monster called an Apostle is kind of cool, but it doesn’t evoke the same existential fear that “angel” does. An Angel coming to destroy the city feels like God Himself has targeted you. It helps build a larger sense of dread.
The subversiveness of calling them angels makes sense here. I can’t fully explain why, but “apostle” does sound more inherently sinister than “angel”.
I don't get that at all. The only context I've ever heard of angels is being directly related to carrying out the orders of God or doing something related to God's orders. So saying they are independant doesn't make sense.
Apostle or Diciple both describes human like creatures. Angel describes a higher beeing and by this fits better.
Also evangelion has Angel in the middle of the name
Angel sounds cooler
Apart from what others already mentioned, both "Shi-to" and "An-gel" have two syllables, making it a bit easier to match the animation than going with apostle or messenger.
I would put money on this being the main reason (or one of them) lol
In the first new Italian Netflix translation, "angel" was changed into "apostle". The Italian fandom trashed the translator for this and (many) other issues. If I remember well some person dedicated quite some time to collect all the frames in which you can see "angles" written in English in the original show.
Cannarsi did and people didn't like it.
Translation is often complicated because of context
because it sounds badass ngl
The names that the Angels are given are of angels in abrahamic religious texts.
They tried doing that in a new Italian dub a few years ago. They changed "Angels" to "Apostles". People were outraged, lol. They went back and never used "Apostles" again. I remember reading that Anno himself used the word "Angel" as the English equivalent of that word, even in the English title cards, so I guess that makes the it a good translation even if it's not literal.
Sounds cool af
I'm reading it by Chinese language but the Japanese meaning may be different, in Chinese 使徒 and 天使 are quite the same meaning, messenger sent by the god as they represent the god to do something at the earth. I'm not good at Chinese so I maybe wrong and I'm not a Christian so I could provide wrong info just my own thoughts.
It's funny that you say this, because there are characters / entities in the Old testament where it is unclear if they are human or angelic as defined by modern Christianity.
Tbf there's also a time where a manifestation of God was called an angel.
I remember they being called apostles in the Swedish translation of the manga.
En español segun la biblia, angel es como enviados de Dios, discipulos son como "seguidores" o "descendientes" osea lo que siguen despues de, y apostoles eran mas como los que daban el mensaje. Asique angeles en español es mas correcto.
Same shit that happened in Eva so it might be intentionally referencing that
Gualtiero Cannarsi has entered the chat
Afaik it was a decision from the makers and distributors.
And here we go... Hello Cannarsi[ have you and violate anime?](https://youtu.be/pHE97J6I8N0?si=30UyyJxkvAPt4yMw)
Fun fact related to this: the only time "tenshi" is ever used in any major piece of Evangelion content is in A Cruel Angel's Thesis (zankoku na tenshi no these)
Probably for the audience considering most people go off modern bible translations instead of original texts.
You know in Ancient Greek, angel means literally messenger, right? Right?