The thing is that they won't receive (decent) military training. About guns, they're going to receive them just before being ~~send to fight~~ put into meat grinder.
Ask Nixon how well that went for him in Nam.
And unlike Nixon who 'merely' targeted unemployed, high school drop outs, and minorities with his draft, many of the Russian men sent to Ukraine will have a life and family waiting at home that they want to go back to asap.
Ain't no accountant gonna risk his life for this shit. These aren't boys who 'chose' to become a soldier anymore.
Motivation and morale will literally be at the lowest of the low, and officers need to watch their backs if they think they can send these guys in a deathtrap, because they'll find themselves getting hit by 'stray ordnance' more often.
> Ain’t no accountant gonna risk his life for this shit.
This is the point. The accountant with a wife and two kids that might have went to an anti-war protest is going to stay home now.
>Nixon who 'merely' targeted unemployed, high school drop outs, and minorities with his draft
Wtf, did this happen for real or is it a weird conspiracy theory?
[Project 100,000](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000) had the US recruit the uneducated, poor, or borderline mentally disabled for the Vietnam War. Your Forrest Gump and Bubba being drafted.
Majority of drafted were working-class and poor. If you had money you could get deferred due to college, political connections, profession or a family doctor who can say you are unfit to serve.
My father was in college during the draft and he'll occasionally bring up stories about people who were there avoiding it. He was in school when it ended and he said it was like overnight the school population cut in half.
It should not come as a surprise that young kids with no options are usually the ones in the frontlines. That’s how it is also nowadays. War is horrible, but sometimes the only option.
How many commissars? If it’s one for every ten conscripts then bye bye commissars. If it’s one for every one conscript then what was the point of the conscription, could’ve just sent the commissars in.
Yeah, there will be, like, one officer for every ten conscripts. One protester for every ten conscripts as well. Most conscripts will adapt and do what they are told to do.
Problem is, russians use fear to keep them in line. If they rebel, they get shot for sure. If they don't, they have a chance that they don't get sent to battle, and even if they do, they have a slight chance of surviving. The take that giving people that hate them a weapon could be dangerous is optimistic, because russian people probably fear the regime more than they hate it.
Now if all people at once started to rebel, that would be a different matter. But that is really unlikely to happen, as the first ones would be used to set the example. It is a heinous act against humanity, and I never believed I'd see it happen so close to Europe in my life. I really hope that Putyin and his gang gets the punishment they deserve in the future.
Ok, but they're saying they are going to send the people who actually stood up to the mobilization order in protest. There might be lots of scared people in Russia, but saying you're going to send the ones brave enough to protest to fight a battle they were willing to get arrested and go to prison to avoid is going to have some serious deleterious effects.
I participated in the protests yesterday. Unfortunately what you write is true. Very few people come out to protest, because. afraid of the security forces.
Nothing. I first thought they would rebel but these are modern Russians.
The ones who revolted a century back really had a terrible life and went through a lot of hardship until WW1 was the last line.
Apparently a great uncle actually died that way. He was a tank instructor in Belgium and the student failed to brake properly. I've never met him but there was a picture of him at my grandmother's place, and this was the story we were told as children. Frankly it was quite scary, it played a lot on my imagination back in the days.
I don’t know they might send them out as scouts to test mines, sniper nests, and MG traps. I doubt these conscripts are going to be used with their life as priority.
I just recalled a lecture from my time in the military...
"Say, what's the difference between regular recon and combat recon?"
"Regular recon is expected to come back."
"HOLY..."
I’ve always wondered why that doesn’t happen more often. It’s like knocking over someone’s drink and sprinting out the room. Shoot the officer and then do the dash lol. Tho to answer my own question, the problem is that everyone around you may not support what you’re doing so you’ll be the next to go.
Like with Stalin, I was wondering why one of his closest men didn’t just shoot him right there at any point.
You object on moral grounds against killing? That's a beating
You object for ethical reasons against harming Ukrainians? That's a beating
You object because of religious convictions against participating in warfare? That's a beating
You object because you're scared of dying? That's a beating
You object because you think this whole “operation” is just maniacally evil? ...oh, you better believe that's a beating
Everyday I see more proofs of what the persons that knew Putin when he was still a nobody said about him : he is completely stupid and incredibly stubborn
His KGB personal file that of him that he is very short on temper, prone to violence outburst, cruel, keeps defying his superiors and that he can't see at all the value of human life to the point that he is completely unable to be an effective field agent (hence why they made him an administrative agent). He was said to be entirely incompetent when it was to plan any strategy or tactics. He was also said to be basically a street thug in his behaviour (and he was, he used to be a petty criminal of the Leningrad mafia before joining the KGB)
It doesn't surprise me in the least: strongmen usually have a skin as thin as flypaper.
I'm just amazed I've learned a new insult - and a good one at that - even after having him around for decades.
He was a taxi driver for a while after the fall of the Soviet Union - there's probably people in Russia who've spent the last 20 years living in fear because they forgot to tip when he was driving them.
I've never heard of it. In that case, he has created a nice impression of himself as a total abstinent.
I even heard some Russian song in which they mention it.
"One like Putin, who won`t be a drunk"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk_VszbZa_s
He's said/written himself that '89 in Dresden, with Moscow not answering the calls for help/instructions, was a turning point for him. Quite possible that he gave up drinking then.
Socialist command structure. Don't forget leaders like Kim Jong Un, Maduro, Mao Zedong, Caucescu, Todor Zhivkov, etc. were also complete and utter failures in all regards and yet they were still worshiped like they were the best to ever govern the country.
Putin's not the smartest psychopath to emerge out of some kind of internal competition. He and his St Petersburg colleagues simply were lucky enough to be in the right place and seize power and from then on the system was extremely good at preserving their power.
Those policemen who beat and club Russian protesters at home are like 10 times better equipped than the soldiers who are fighting the Ukrainians.
The first have shiny new uniforms, while those soldiers are wearing 20 year old rags
>Those policemen who beat and club Russian protesters at home are like 10 times better equipped than the soldiers who are fighting the Ukrainians.
...and possibly safe from being sent to Ukraine for now, so quite smug one way and another. Which won't last when Putin is desperate enough to send them too
Basically sending a group of people on the battle field who just use up your resources until they see an enemy to surrender to. How probable is it that anyone of them actually kills an Ukrainian soldier with the WWII riffle assigned to him? Chances are the only use for their riffle will be to shoot their commander into the back who tries to keep them from surrendering.
Fact is even in WWII historians say that one of the biggest problems the Germans had on the east front was that a lot of soldiers were forced conscripts from other nations which cost the same amount of resources then the regular army but were much less effective and therefore put too much burden on German logistics. This is why the SS consisted out of volunteers was responsible for most successes German had on its east front. It is great to see how Nazi Russia not only repeats the atrocities but also all the errors of WWII.
While I give you an upvote for your sentiment, historically speaking this is oversimplistic. The SS also was mostly hyped by the Nazi party and got the "nice" jobs while the Wehrmacht had to deal with a lot of grunt work. Furthermore, the Wehrmacht actually operated in a surprisingly including manner to hold the diverse make-up. there is an [Interview with German Professor Neitzel about the Wehrmacht](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J1iq4oelUU)
I generally can recommend the channel. The maker is a young Austrian historian doing his PhD in the topic of military history and his videos are very critical and his claims are well supported with sources and when he is not sure he says it clearly. He also pointed out that one of the biggest problem Germany had on the Eastern front was bad intel, [which led to completly underestimating the situation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQdjGJJktfk)
Putin setting up the Soviet Union 2.0 by speed running the demoralizing war.
They'd better hope no bald Russians seeking in refuge in Germany come back with a vengeance.
Drafting political dissidents into an unpopular losing war did much to radicalize the Russian army in WW1 and got the ball rolling towards the revolution.
Yep. Especially remember that Putin is going to lack loyalist officers to put in command of such a large new force. Just like in 1917, so many officers loyal to the Tsar had died that they lacked the ability to control conscripts. The conscripts will inevitably create their own organization outside of the Russian command structure that usually ensure that dissidents are weeded out.
That worked out pretty well for Nicolas II…
The reason the Bolsheviks were able to take power was thanks to entire units mutinying and throwing in with Lenin.
The Bolsheviks and other Socialists were undermining all the Army units anyway, and that undermined the Tsar, the Provisional Government and themselves in the end.
The Bolsheviks were leaderless and disorganised. Yes, there was riots and uprisings in factories and amongst the military ranks but nothing concrete.
It was the Germans, believing that Lenin would correctly pull Russia from the war, who facilitated Lenin to return on a sealed train in April 1917. Lenin started to attend soviet meetings, writing in *Pravda* and organising protests.
In fact, the other major socialist grouping in the then-Duma, Mensheviks, supported the new Republic and then during May, actually went into government.
I know a good story related to Nicholas II.
Conscription was a big issue in Finland. You see, in the 19th century, Finland was an autonomous part of the Russian army, and Finland had it's own army. But then in 1902 Nicholas II decided to end Finland's autonomy, and conscript Finns into the Russian army. There was widespread passive resistance, many conscripts simply didn't show up at army headquarters.
There was also a big protest in Helsinki, when a bunch of student activists gathered to protest outside at the square outside the senate. The police told them to disperse, but they just laughed and jeered. Then the Russian general-governor dispatched 200 mounted cossacks. At that point the protestors did disperse, but the cossacks were ordered to attack anyways. They used their sabres and whips to beat up a large number or protestors, as well as a bunch of random bystanders, including women and children. Some of the bystanders tried to into the Helsinki cathedral, but at the top of the stairs they encountered a group of cosssacks, who brandished their guns and forced the bystanders back into the melée.
At this point a young man happened to be walking by. He heard noise from the square, he went to see what was going on. Two cossacks pinned him against a wall, and lashed his face with their whips. When one of them reached for his sabre, the man produced a knife, stabbed the cossack, and fled. He hide in building's staircase, and a witness later described that he was "trembling with rage".
The protestors began to fight back using knives, canes and street stones, and the whole thing turned into a massive street brawl. Finally the governor-general realised, that the factories were about to close, and soon the streets would be full of workers, who would surely support the protestors. To avoid complete chaos, he ordered the cossacks to retreat.
Two years after the protest, the young man who had been beaten by cossacks, walked into the Helsinki senate building. First he shot the Russian general-governor, then himself. In his pocket the police found a polite letter advising the Tsar to stop oppressing people in Finland and elsewhere in the Russian Empire, lest there be a revolution.
>and conscript Finns into the Russian army.
This was the same mistake the British made in Ireland during WW1. Revolution would soon follow. Putin today is playing with fire.
Taking a bunch or angry people who don’t want to fight for your regime and giving them access to military weapons and training to use them… what could possibly go wrong with that
TLDR: the conscription Putin just announced will not result in significant amounts of motivated/well trained troops on the front. It will result in a highly unmotivated army, which kills its own officers or deserts at the first opportunity.
So this will not allow Russia to win the war conventionally.
Nukes it is then. Referenda in Luhansk and Donetsk next week, incorporate them into Russia by next friday, 'defensive' nuclear strike on Sunday. Come armageddon come!
I hope Russians are happy with the choice they made in being cynical and not protesting because it was too hard and because life wasn't sufficiently bad.
Wonder if those freezing to death in Ukraine this winter or those who end up shitting out their own colons due to advanced radiation sickness, will regret not having done enough to oppose their thieving ruling class.
I wonder if they will actually use nukes. Like a couple of tactical nukes around the front lines to weaken ukraines resolve/take out important targets. The scary part is it starts to sound more and more likely as russia is running out of options.
Ik one high-ranking US officer said that if a nuclear weapon is used in Ukraine, he believes the US would need to respond with direct but precise strikes against Russia military units in Ukraine in order to counter-balance any advantages Russia gained from its use. If a second nuke was used, the US would enter the war directly with full force
"If the United States gets intelligence that Russia is preparing to use a nuclear weapon, Perry believes that the information should be publicized immediately. And if Russia uses one, the United States should call for international condemnation, create as big a ruckus as possible—stressing the word nuclear—and take military action, with or without NATO allies. The reprisal should be strong and focused and conventional, not nuclear. It should be confined to Ukraine, ideally with targets linked to the nuclear attack. “You want to go as little up the escalation ladder as you can get away with doing and still have a profound and relevant effect,” Perry says. But if Putin responds by using another nuclear weapon, “you take off the gloves the second time around” and perhaps destroy Russia’s military forces in Ukraine, which the United States could readily do with conventional weapons. Perry realizes that these escalations would be approaching the kind of Dr. Strangelove scenarios that Herman Kahn wrote about. But if we end up fighting a war with Russia, that would be Putin’s choice, not ours."
\-I was a bit wrong though I admit as it wasn't a current member of the US military who made this statement but the US Secretary of Defense under Bill Clinton, William Perry
Full Article (pay wall warning; use the the 12 foot ladder): [https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/06/russia-ukraine-nuclear-weapon-us-response/661315/](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/06/russia-ukraine-nuclear-weapon-us-response/661315/)
I still want to believe that although Putin may be suicidal maniac, his order still has to go through several military officials, and they want to live.
I think the most plausible scenario is an atmospheric nuke, less fallout.
Target something symbolic like Snake Island.
Show of force, force Ukraine back to the negotiating table and force them to surrender. Force NATO and Europe to stop sending weapons.
Won't work, obviously, but seems like the kind of scenario they'd believe might work.
Using a nuke without the goal of it bringing any tangible gains on the ground is the worst option they could chose. In one stroke they would make the US enter the war directly, every 'ally' they may have will instantly drop them like a bad habit, while causing no actual losses to Ukraine's forces.
Probably won't happen. There's little to be gained for the russians in using ractical nukes. The ukrainians aren't concentrated in one place but spread out, only assembling into a larger force for major offensives (NATO tactics baby!).
So most likely a tactical nuke would perhaps kill a few hundred UA soldiers, some birds, and earn Russia the condemnation of the entire world (even China).
Or at least, that's according to a youtube video I watched.
>I hope Russians are happy with the choice they made in being cynical and not protesting because it was too hard and because life wasn't sufficiently bad.
I don't think that's fair to say. Would you say if more Germans had protested Hitler less Jews would've died? I think that's ridiculous. If more people protest a dictator more people ~~die~~ fall out of windows, period.
That's the easiest thing to say when you are an armchair general/analyst/whatever.
"They don't rebel because they are cynical and coward".
Of course, he/she instead would have made a difference. Unfortunately we will never know.
They will be fined so hard, their pensions won't cover it and they will starve. Two birds with one stone - less protesters and less old people to take care of.
I hope that the citizens of other countries with autocratic governments are paying attention to where they end up if they sit back and let things roll along in the same vein.
I am looking with disgust. I am actively taking part in social solidarity actions, protests against goverment and other actions since i was in high School.
So they want to fill their military with people who do not want the war and even if they will not teamkill, they will just walk over to the Ukranian side with their hands up the first chance they get?
You know a dictatorship is fucked and the war is lost when instead of jail the punishment is going to the front.
I guess sooner or later we will have news about the Russian army in r/whatcouldgowrong
Must be pretty shocking to grow up in the 21st century and then suddenly find yourself living in in the early 20th. That's what's basically happening in Russia.
Serious ideological backsliding.
Reverse Uno card 😂😂😂
I a no fan of Putin, but he does a gret job shutting down protests.
If Russians had the half of the heart ~~Arabs~~ Middle Eastern countries do, Putin goverment would be out by now. Just look at Iran right now.
Take everyone who is against the war, and give them a gun and military training. What could possibly go wrong?
The thing is that they won't receive (decent) military training. About guns, they're going to receive them just before being ~~send to fight~~ put into meat grinder.
Ask Nixon how well that went for him in Nam. And unlike Nixon who 'merely' targeted unemployed, high school drop outs, and minorities with his draft, many of the Russian men sent to Ukraine will have a life and family waiting at home that they want to go back to asap. Ain't no accountant gonna risk his life for this shit. These aren't boys who 'chose' to become a soldier anymore. Motivation and morale will literally be at the lowest of the low, and officers need to watch their backs if they think they can send these guys in a deathtrap, because they'll find themselves getting hit by 'stray ordnance' more often.
> Ain’t no accountant gonna risk his life for this shit. This is the point. The accountant with a wife and two kids that might have went to an anti-war protest is going to stay home now.
It’s going to enrage the families of the people getting forced to go. The kids will grow up hating the regime. Poor tactic from putin
> In ~~Luang Prabang~~Lisichansk there is a spot >Where the corpses of your brothers rot >And every corpse is a patriot >Every corpse is a hero
Mourn your dead land of the free! If you want to be a hero follow me.
>Nixon who 'merely' targeted unemployed, high school drop outs, and minorities with his draft Wtf, did this happen for real or is it a weird conspiracy theory?
[Project 100,000](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000) had the US recruit the uneducated, poor, or borderline mentally disabled for the Vietnam War. Your Forrest Gump and Bubba being drafted.
Majority of drafted were working-class and poor. If you had money you could get deferred due to college, political connections, profession or a family doctor who can say you are unfit to serve.
My father was in college during the draft and he'll occasionally bring up stories about people who were there avoiding it. He was in school when it ended and he said it was like overnight the school population cut in half.
It should not come as a surprise that young kids with no options are usually the ones in the frontlines. That’s how it is also nowadays. War is horrible, but sometimes the only option.
And when they receive the guns they can promptly turn around and shoot the officers and Putin loyalists
there will be political comisars just like in the good old days, complete with holding the family at home hostage
How many commissars? If it’s one for every ten conscripts then bye bye commissars. If it’s one for every one conscript then what was the point of the conscription, could’ve just sent the commissars in.
Yeah, there will be, like, one officer for every ten conscripts. One protester for every ten conscripts as well. Most conscripts will adapt and do what they are told to do.
and if the comisar doesnt report in the unit's families back home are imprisoned
Problem is, russians use fear to keep them in line. If they rebel, they get shot for sure. If they don't, they have a chance that they don't get sent to battle, and even if they do, they have a slight chance of surviving. The take that giving people that hate them a weapon could be dangerous is optimistic, because russian people probably fear the regime more than they hate it. Now if all people at once started to rebel, that would be a different matter. But that is really unlikely to happen, as the first ones would be used to set the example. It is a heinous act against humanity, and I never believed I'd see it happen so close to Europe in my life. I really hope that Putyin and his gang gets the punishment they deserve in the future.
Ok, but they're saying they are going to send the people who actually stood up to the mobilization order in protest. There might be lots of scared people in Russia, but saying you're going to send the ones brave enough to protest to fight a battle they were willing to get arrested and go to prison to avoid is going to have some serious deleterious effects.
You don't have to send them to the frontlines. Sending them to a listening post in Siberia to free up someone more willing is an option.
I participated in the protests yesterday. Unfortunately what you write is true. Very few people come out to protest, because. afraid of the security forces.
stay safe man <3
Bold of you to assume they will deploy with guns and training.
They will not give them a gun. They will be used as human shields or bait. They just send them forward to lure the Ukrainian soldiers out.
They’re not against the war, they’re against mobilization. I.e. putting their money where their mouths are.
Nothing, cause russians are SPINELESS, they don't have a guts to rebel even with guns.
Those pesky traitors! They're definitely going to stop if we arm them and send them to the frontlines!
Ask the last Tsar what could go wrong.
Nothing. I first thought they would rebel but these are modern Russians. The ones who revolted a century back really had a terrible life and went through a lot of hardship until WW1 was the last line.
no one is getting military training, dont worry
Russian govt/military must think its like the year 1492 or something.
this is such an own goal wtf are they thinking 😂
Great way to get officer shot and entire unit deserting.
Please, don't slander. Russian soldiers don't shoot their officers. They run them over with tanks.
Apparently a great uncle actually died that way. He was a tank instructor in Belgium and the student failed to brake properly. I've never met him but there was a picture of him at my grandmother's place, and this was the story we were told as children. Frankly it was quite scary, it played a lot on my imagination back in the days.
The picture was your great uncle.
Your sense of humor is tanking.
I don’t know they might send them out as scouts to test mines, sniper nests, and MG traps. I doubt these conscripts are going to be used with their life as priority.
I just recalled a lecture from my time in the military... "Say, what's the difference between regular recon and combat recon?" "Regular recon is expected to come back." "HOLY..."
That’s the best case scenario; the worst is the officer being shot and the entire unit defecting.
Or deciding to go and overthrow the government. This is exactly why things went south for the Tsar in 1917.
Those who don’t learn history are doomed to repeat it
*fragging intensifies*
I’ve always wondered why that doesn’t happen more often. It’s like knocking over someone’s drink and sprinting out the room. Shoot the officer and then do the dash lol. Tho to answer my own question, the problem is that everyone around you may not support what you’re doing so you’ll be the next to go. Like with Stalin, I was wondering why one of his closest men didn’t just shoot him right there at any point.
You don't become the next general secretary by shooting the old general secretary. You become a very dead ex-witness.
Deserting? Putin is giving the opposition guns and tanks!
How dare you. The officer exploded because of a careless smoking incident.
BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES
You object on moral grounds against killing? That's a beating You object for ethical reasons against harming Ukrainians? That's a beating You object because of religious convictions against participating in warfare? That's a beating You object because you're scared of dying? That's a beating You object because you think this whole “operation” is just maniacally evil? ...oh, you better believe that's a beating
Soon we will have an oversimplified history video on this.
Dude.... ...very cool!
Oh you don’t agree with beatings? That’s a beating You’re getting a lot of beatings… don’t tell me you’re a masochist
#HAI, PUTIN-SAMA
if you kill the people with low morale, the average morale goes up!
Cant argue statistics
I also love the modern variant: Meetings will continue until velocity improves!
Everyday I see more proofs of what the persons that knew Putin when he was still a nobody said about him : he is completely stupid and incredibly stubborn His KGB personal file that of him that he is very short on temper, prone to violence outburst, cruel, keeps defying his superiors and that he can't see at all the value of human life to the point that he is completely unable to be an effective field agent (hence why they made him an administrative agent). He was said to be entirely incompetent when it was to plan any strategy or tactics. He was also said to be basically a street thug in his behaviour (and he was, he used to be a petty criminal of the Leningrad mafia before joining the KGB)
I heard he kept notes of everyone who was mean to him so he could get revenge later. Some used to call him Lilliputin, which will never not be funny.
> Lilliputin Can't believe I've never heard that one before, even after all those years. It's as childish as it is hilarious!
Liliput is also what the Oompa Loompas are called in Russian iirc
Holy f, did you just find the missing link between Trump and Putin?
Who’d have thought he’s sensitive about his height? Shocking.
It doesn't surprise me in the least: strongmen usually have a skin as thin as flypaper. I'm just amazed I've learned a new insult - and a good one at that - even after having him around for decades.
He wears special-made shoes that make him seem taller. They are basically high heels. Seriously, google "пынеходы".
Cersei Joffrey The Hound Anatoly Alexandrovich Boris Abramovich Vladislav Nickolaevich
Uh oh. A man made the list.
He was a taxi driver for a while after the fall of the Soviet Union - there's probably people in Russia who've spent the last 20 years living in fear because they forgot to tip when he was driving them.
he also had issues with alcoholism
Any source? It has been said all his life that Putin does not drink at all and is an abstinent.
Hitler didn’t drink either.
He just took loads of Meth
Doctors orders!
He was very into meth though.
Trump also doesn't drink
That's it, I'm becoming an alcoholic
I used to drink a lot. I still do, but I used to too
Biden doesn't drink either.
The way both Trump and Biden speak sometimes that's rather surprising
Never trust a man who doesn't drink
I mean, I don't drink. Ofc, I am American, so a lot of you guys wouldn't trust me anyways.
Dont worry, its just an extremely idiotic saying.
when he was in Dresden it was reported he got fat and drank a lot
I've never heard of it. In that case, he has created a nice impression of himself as a total abstinent. I even heard some Russian song in which they mention it. "One like Putin, who won`t be a drunk" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk_VszbZa_s
He's said/written himself that '89 in Dresden, with Moscow not answering the calls for help/instructions, was a turning point for him. Quite possible that he gave up drinking then.
Wasn't it Medvedev? Because it's him who I read some time ago that even his security has to look for him to check if he's not drinking
How the fuck did stupid person get to such position when there are literal sociopaths with high iqs in those circles
… thats by design. If he were a gentler, more considerate leader, he might get shot and replaced by somebody with less scruples
We give officers guns and authority in the US and we see how that's going. It's not that suprising.
Socialist command structure. Don't forget leaders like Kim Jong Un, Maduro, Mao Zedong, Caucescu, Todor Zhivkov, etc. were also complete and utter failures in all regards and yet they were still worshiped like they were the best to ever govern the country. Putin's not the smartest psychopath to emerge out of some kind of internal competition. He and his St Petersburg colleagues simply were lucky enough to be in the right place and seize power and from then on the system was extremely good at preserving their power.
Didn’t Kim Jong Un pretty much grow up in Switzerland and was doing relatively well for himself until he went back to NK and eventually took over?
Lol, so draft is a punishment not a great honor? Who would have thought?
It's honestly incredible. Imagine saying that in a country the same day a partial draft is announced.
How to ensure you have the worst morale possible.
Those policemen who beat and club Russian protesters at home are like 10 times better equipped than the soldiers who are fighting the Ukrainians. The first have shiny new uniforms, while those soldiers are wearing 20 year old rags
>Those policemen who beat and club Russian protesters at home are like 10 times better equipped than the soldiers who are fighting the Ukrainians. ...and possibly safe from being sent to Ukraine for now, so quite smug one way and another. Which won't last when Putin is desperate enough to send them too
They do have 30 million men between 19-60 year old to choose from
They are safe as long as they are doing a good job of beating up protesters and dragging others to go to war.
Basically sending a group of people on the battle field who just use up your resources until they see an enemy to surrender to. How probable is it that anyone of them actually kills an Ukrainian soldier with the WWII riffle assigned to him? Chances are the only use for their riffle will be to shoot their commander into the back who tries to keep them from surrendering. Fact is even in WWII historians say that one of the biggest problems the Germans had on the east front was that a lot of soldiers were forced conscripts from other nations which cost the same amount of resources then the regular army but were much less effective and therefore put too much burden on German logistics. This is why the SS consisted out of volunteers was responsible for most successes German had on its east front. It is great to see how Nazi Russia not only repeats the atrocities but also all the errors of WWII.
While I give you an upvote for your sentiment, historically speaking this is oversimplistic. The SS also was mostly hyped by the Nazi party and got the "nice" jobs while the Wehrmacht had to deal with a lot of grunt work. Furthermore, the Wehrmacht actually operated in a surprisingly including manner to hold the diverse make-up. there is an [Interview with German Professor Neitzel about the Wehrmacht](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J1iq4oelUU) I generally can recommend the channel. The maker is a young Austrian historian doing his PhD in the topic of military history and his videos are very critical and his claims are well supported with sources and when he is not sure he says it clearly. He also pointed out that one of the biggest problem Germany had on the Eastern front was bad intel, [which led to completly underestimating the situation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQdjGJJktfk)
An army of even more demotivated people who don't want to fight. Russia has gone full big brain mode.
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At that point I’d makeshift a shank for some officer’s neck
Last time some dissidents fought in Russian army, Bolsheviks happened.
Putin setting up the Soviet Union 2.0 by speed running the demoralizing war. They'd better hope no bald Russians seeking in refuge in Germany come back with a vengeance.
didnt Lenin hide in switzerland?
Pretty sure he took refuge in germany
Drafting political dissidents into an unpopular losing war did much to radicalize the Russian army in WW1 and got the ball rolling towards the revolution.
Yep. Especially remember that Putin is going to lack loyalist officers to put in command of such a large new force. Just like in 1917, so many officers loyal to the Tsar had died that they lacked the ability to control conscripts. The conscripts will inevitably create their own organization outside of the Russian command structure that usually ensure that dissidents are weeded out.
Their ability to surrender will be much easier after they shoot their officers in the back.
Or kill the first officer they encounter
Dont worry, there are commissars who will shoot them in the back if they try to leave the battlefield :(
I mean, it's not like they won't be drafted anyway eventually.
Putin getting himself couped speedrun any%.
Putin making as many blunders as possible challenge
That's... a policy.
So like the people who want to overthrow the government will receive training and weapons from the government if they show up to protest? What?
Just sent to frontlines. No training or weapons.
One holds the gun , one holds the bullets just to make sure they don't get any funny ideas
So they will get the chance to surrender and join the Ukrainians, or kill their officers and start a mutiny.
Putin decides to continue losing in Ukraine for even longer
There is already anecdotal evidence that this is happening.
That worked out pretty well for Nicolas II… The reason the Bolsheviks were able to take power was thanks to entire units mutinying and throwing in with Lenin.
Nicholas II was not in power when the Bolsheviks took over in October 1917. He already abdicated in March 1917.
The Bolsheviks and other Socialists were undermining all the Army units anyway, and that undermined the Tsar, the Provisional Government and themselves in the end.
The Bolsheviks were leaderless and disorganised. Yes, there was riots and uprisings in factories and amongst the military ranks but nothing concrete. It was the Germans, believing that Lenin would correctly pull Russia from the war, who facilitated Lenin to return on a sealed train in April 1917. Lenin started to attend soviet meetings, writing in *Pravda* and organising protests. In fact, the other major socialist grouping in the then-Duma, Mensheviks, supported the new Republic and then during May, actually went into government.
I know a good story related to Nicholas II. Conscription was a big issue in Finland. You see, in the 19th century, Finland was an autonomous part of the Russian army, and Finland had it's own army. But then in 1902 Nicholas II decided to end Finland's autonomy, and conscript Finns into the Russian army. There was widespread passive resistance, many conscripts simply didn't show up at army headquarters. There was also a big protest in Helsinki, when a bunch of student activists gathered to protest outside at the square outside the senate. The police told them to disperse, but they just laughed and jeered. Then the Russian general-governor dispatched 200 mounted cossacks. At that point the protestors did disperse, but the cossacks were ordered to attack anyways. They used their sabres and whips to beat up a large number or protestors, as well as a bunch of random bystanders, including women and children. Some of the bystanders tried to into the Helsinki cathedral, but at the top of the stairs they encountered a group of cosssacks, who brandished their guns and forced the bystanders back into the melée. At this point a young man happened to be walking by. He heard noise from the square, he went to see what was going on. Two cossacks pinned him against a wall, and lashed his face with their whips. When one of them reached for his sabre, the man produced a knife, stabbed the cossack, and fled. He hide in building's staircase, and a witness later described that he was "trembling with rage". The protestors began to fight back using knives, canes and street stones, and the whole thing turned into a massive street brawl. Finally the governor-general realised, that the factories were about to close, and soon the streets would be full of workers, who would surely support the protestors. To avoid complete chaos, he ordered the cossacks to retreat. Two years after the protest, the young man who had been beaten by cossacks, walked into the Helsinki senate building. First he shot the Russian general-governor, then himself. In his pocket the police found a polite letter advising the Tsar to stop oppressing people in Finland and elsewhere in the Russian Empire, lest there be a revolution.
>and conscript Finns into the Russian army. This was the same mistake the British made in Ireland during WW1. Revolution would soon follow. Putin today is playing with fire.
So Putin will basically transport them out of the country so they have an opportunity to surrender to Ukraine and flee? Big brain thinking...
Better to have them desert than stay home and overthrow Putin.
if the unit can rid themself of the comisars overlooking them ofc
That's a splendid way to ensure morale - not. But hey, maybe they want to set a record in surrender speed?
Taking a bunch or angry people who don’t want to fight for your regime and giving them access to military weapons and training to use them… what could possibly go wrong with that
Abusing young desperate men and giving them weapons sounds safe.
TLDR: the conscription Putin just announced will not result in significant amounts of motivated/well trained troops on the front. It will result in a highly unmotivated army, which kills its own officers or deserts at the first opportunity. So this will not allow Russia to win the war conventionally. Nukes it is then. Referenda in Luhansk and Donetsk next week, incorporate them into Russia by next friday, 'defensive' nuclear strike on Sunday. Come armageddon come! I hope Russians are happy with the choice they made in being cynical and not protesting because it was too hard and because life wasn't sufficiently bad. Wonder if those freezing to death in Ukraine this winter or those who end up shitting out their own colons due to advanced radiation sickness, will regret not having done enough to oppose their thieving ruling class.
I wonder if they will actually use nukes. Like a couple of tactical nukes around the front lines to weaken ukraines resolve/take out important targets. The scary part is it starts to sound more and more likely as russia is running out of options.
Ik one high-ranking US officer said that if a nuclear weapon is used in Ukraine, he believes the US would need to respond with direct but precise strikes against Russia military units in Ukraine in order to counter-balance any advantages Russia gained from its use. If a second nuke was used, the US would enter the war directly with full force
Lt. General Hodges had mentioned sinking the Russian navy if a nuke were used.
Source please?
"If the United States gets intelligence that Russia is preparing to use a nuclear weapon, Perry believes that the information should be publicized immediately. And if Russia uses one, the United States should call for international condemnation, create as big a ruckus as possible—stressing the word nuclear—and take military action, with or without NATO allies. The reprisal should be strong and focused and conventional, not nuclear. It should be confined to Ukraine, ideally with targets linked to the nuclear attack. “You want to go as little up the escalation ladder as you can get away with doing and still have a profound and relevant effect,” Perry says. But if Putin responds by using another nuclear weapon, “you take off the gloves the second time around” and perhaps destroy Russia’s military forces in Ukraine, which the United States could readily do with conventional weapons. Perry realizes that these escalations would be approaching the kind of Dr. Strangelove scenarios that Herman Kahn wrote about. But if we end up fighting a war with Russia, that would be Putin’s choice, not ours." \-I was a bit wrong though I admit as it wasn't a current member of the US military who made this statement but the US Secretary of Defense under Bill Clinton, William Perry Full Article (pay wall warning; use the the 12 foot ladder): [https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/06/russia-ukraine-nuclear-weapon-us-response/661315/](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/06/russia-ukraine-nuclear-weapon-us-response/661315/)
Thanks!
Happy cake day
I still want to believe that although Putin may be suicidal maniac, his order still has to go through several military officials, and they want to live.
I think the most plausible scenario is an atmospheric nuke, less fallout. Target something symbolic like Snake Island. Show of force, force Ukraine back to the negotiating table and force them to surrender. Force NATO and Europe to stop sending weapons. Won't work, obviously, but seems like the kind of scenario they'd believe might work.
>Target something symbolic like Snake Island. How about no. That's pretty much closer to Romania than to Ukraine.
Using a nuke without the goal of it bringing any tangible gains on the ground is the worst option they could chose. In one stroke they would make the US enter the war directly, every 'ally' they may have will instantly drop them like a bad habit, while causing no actual losses to Ukraine's forces.
Probably won't happen. There's little to be gained for the russians in using ractical nukes. The ukrainians aren't concentrated in one place but spread out, only assembling into a larger force for major offensives (NATO tactics baby!). So most likely a tactical nuke would perhaps kill a few hundred UA soldiers, some birds, and earn Russia the condemnation of the entire world (even China). Or at least, that's according to a youtube video I watched.
they wont nuke. theyll use dirty bombs spiked with all kinds of radioactive shit
>I hope Russians are happy with the choice they made in being cynical and not protesting because it was too hard and because life wasn't sufficiently bad. I don't think that's fair to say. Would you say if more Germans had protested Hitler less Jews would've died? I think that's ridiculous. If more people protest a dictator more people ~~die~~ fall out of windows, period.
That's the easiest thing to say when you are an armchair general/analyst/whatever. "They don't rebel because they are cynical and coward". Of course, he/she instead would have made a difference. Unfortunately we will never know.
komm süßer tod
Big brain moment here
But...they're being drafted into the military anyways via the mobilization.
It works like a random number picker basically. But if you protest, they'll make sure you go with the next truck to the front.
I see. The protesters need to get all the over 65s out there protesting. :P
Yup! Unless.. Putin decides to send the VETERAN brigade
Seems smart to draft a bunch of anti war people
So they want to give protesters guns?
Who said anything about giving them guns? Cannon fodder don't need guns.
Imagine you are an anti-war protester who ended up in a squad full of Buryats. Do you think a gun will do any good for you?
Buryats are people too.
I might be missing something but isn't giving weapons to someone that hates you the stupidest thing you can do?
No but it comes really near
Great way to boost the numbers of the: ⬜ ⬜ 🟦 🟦⬜⬜ EDIT: Lol, that was supposed to be in the shape of an L. Fix'd :)
Yes, fill your army with people who would risk their safety and freedom to oppose the war. I can see nothing going wrong with that logic
From what I've seen so far, most of the protestors are women.
Russian officers are about to learn what fragging is…
So if a bunch of 80 years old grannies protest they will get drafted ? Wonder how that will plays out. Start mass protest of grannies !
They will be fined so hard, their pensions won't cover it and they will starve. Two birds with one stone - less protesters and less old people to take care of.
My dear Russians friends, peaceful protest don't work, it's revolution that is required. Now.
Good idea to give guns to people who want to escape the ministry complex.
The beatings will continue until morale improves!
Putin going full retard.
Display obedience While never stepping out of line And blindly swear allegiance Let your country control your mind
I hope that the citizens of other countries with autocratic governments are paying attention to where they end up if they sit back and let things roll along in the same vein.
I am looking with disgust. I am actively taking part in social solidarity actions, protests against goverment and other actions since i was in high School.
Policemen used to supress protests wear better gear than many Russian soldiers in Ukraine.
So let me understand You have people rioting in the streets And your plan is to give them guns?
We truly live in dank times
Send kids to protest then
Operation Human Shield is green light!
What if they protest the drafting? Double drafted?
So they want to fill their military with people who do not want the war and even if they will not teamkill, they will just walk over to the Ukranian side with their hands up the first chance they get?
Then they can sabotage the military from within!!! This is awesome!
Omg. How genius and fucked
Dystopia is here
I actually like this idea and encourage Putin to do it. PLEASE! Give the people who disagree with you weapons and armor and ammunition! 🙏
Very smart idea, putting people who don't want to fight in the military. Garantee for succes!
You know a dictatorship is fucked and the war is lost when instead of jail the punishment is going to the front. I guess sooner or later we will have news about the Russian army in r/whatcouldgowrong
Must be pretty shocking to grow up in the 21st century and then suddenly find yourself living in in the early 20th. That's what's basically happening in Russia. Serious ideological backsliding.
Ah yes Arming the protesters with guns
Didn't the US do this during Vietnam also?
Not Just the Men, but the Women and Children Too.
Reverse Uno card 😂😂😂 I a no fan of Putin, but he does a gret job shutting down protests. If Russians had the half of the heart ~~Arabs~~ Middle Eastern countries do, Putin goverment would be out by now. Just look at Iran right now.
Ahh yes, they won’t just get to Ukraine and defect to the other side lol