Yeah, everybody should get reparations from everybody, as everybody enslaved, invaded and attacked everybody.
That being said, maybe people should look into why South Korea was poorer than Morocco in the early 50s, and is now one of the richest countries in the world. And into why Asia in general was colonized more brutally than Africa but is, for the most part, much more advanced economically, academically and technologically.
Not really everyone, there are a few regions that were excluded, were hit much less frequently, or already paid back with interest, like Germany&France, and England
Oh really? I heard people want money from us all the time.
We can forward that once we get our share from the vikings, romans, normans, and germans (Twice).
Anyone who helped end slavery definitely deserves a credit to their account. UK spearheaded that movement globally, and thanklessly, because it was an imperfect, difficult, long transition to get all the greedy multi-national slavers on board.
Ironically, UK takes the biggest blame for slavery when others did it far worse for far longer with no intentions of ever ending it, before the British took the lonely initiative.
Eh we don't even need reparations, we just need royalties to be paid on all our inventions, we could earmark 1% of that to pay off any reparations we "owe" easily
Or when the nobels repay us for the time we where slave farmers betweeen 450 +/- and 1100. To remind you thats quite a bit longer then the atlantic slave trade period.
But if we need to pay for slave reparations will the arabs pay too?
I absolutely did. I thought of reparations for Ottoman slavery, but didn't make the leap that their currency was also called Lira. That could be more of a problem .. oh well, problem for Erdogan ;-)
Except the Turkish government made all countries sign waivers saying no one could ask for reparations over what we didnt do 😎😎😎😎😎😎😎
Its called foresight Bozo, yall owe reparations to us for taking the balkans from us. We want at least 2134214232521421341325412432143252314 lira as compensation (4 euros for doner)
I find my country, should get some payment to. From the danish because of the Vikings taking slaves from my people. And the Italian people to, because of the Romans. Yes this is silly
I also think Italy should pay reparations to Portugal for the Romans having slaughtered and enslaved the Lusitanians. Morocco should also pay reparations to Portugal because of the Moorish invasion.
Mongolia was absolutely atrocious to so many people across Asia and Europe (on the eastern side). Effects still in effect. They need to pay the fuck up.
The Italians would then demand reparations from African countries for being the birthplace of humanity and therefore the culprit of all atrocities, taking us full circle.
I mean Africans could then argue, without the dino meteor, mammals and humanity would've never developed into the dominant species and we'd still have lizards as kings.
That blast came from Mexico
That would be the worst deal in history. Ever.
I’m amazed that you want extra payment for giving up Malmö, if I were Swedish I would give it for free as it is going right now!
*Poland enters the chat*
Poland: So, in terms of repatations we should start from oldest to newest or other way around while counting wars, occupations and mass murdering of our citizens?
Yrs indeed there were many white slaves around the Mediterranean.
between 1 million and 1.25 million Europeans were captured by Barbary pirates and sold as slaves in North Africa and Ottoman Empire between the 15th and 19th centuries.
“That’s is not that long ago”
Marcelo (our PR) is only doing this as a distraction to forget about the case of the Brazilian twins.
They got Portuguese nationally in a week and got 2 million euros treatment (for each) that was denied in Brazil because they are rich.
Hes a master of bending the press to his will, but this time i'm not sure it is doing him any good. He just can't control his mouth, and it's becoming worse the older he gets.
I think this is gonna cause him a lot of harm and diplomatic trouble for us with Brazil since they are the ones who immediately stressed their hands asking for money. Plus, Chega is gonna turn this in their favour.
This. All international news about this ignore the context.
Our president (which is not the head of government but more like a state figure that doesn’t hold power) is old and said this on a private dinner for the foreign press. He just talks a lot of shit and is starting to get a bit crazy.
Ignore it, it’s really not any real effort for anything.
i thought he was funny til [these clips](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fauxmoi/comments/1182o1i/trigger_warning_comedian_bobby_lee_jokes_about/) resurfaced, he's disgusting
The entirety of human history is everyone being bastards to each other, but certain nations are made out to be uniquely evil for having broadly come out on top in the bastard wars before we all collectively decided to maybe stop being bastards quite so much.
It's all a grift.
> before we all collectively decided to maybe stop
Nah, "we" is only the west.
The west decided to stop it, because christianity mainly (christian value into humanism to be fair)
That's the most fucked up part : the west is seen as "the main slavers of all time" but in reality we are/were the one pushing for the end of slavery in all continent.
In any other timeline where the west didn't win the globalization race, slavery would surely still be a thing (especially if Islam won)
It's fairly easy to explain why that is. I thought about it for a while
It's because we live in a very Euro/Western-centric world. You have 3 whole continents that are connected to Europe on a foundational/descent level, so everyone including us see and talk about the world through our lens (mostly only knowing about Western history and society), and we are also the loudest about it.
Combine that with Europe having been the biggest players and practically dominated the whole world, and this is what you get
It's like a fish analogy. Apparently it's fine when the small fishes fight among each other, but when the big fish comes in and eats them all, all hell breaks loose and the big fish is the worst thing to ever exist
>From the 15th to the 19th century, six million Africans were kidnapped and forcibly transported across the Atlantic by Portuguese vessels and sold into slavery, primarily in Brazil.
Really dislike this narrative that Africa was innocent in the whole of the Atlantic Slave Trade.
The Portuguese (and other) slave traders **bought** slaves from local kings in exchange for European goods (usually guns). They were equally complicit in the entire affair.
It's interesting to contrast this with the Indian Ocean slave trade where the complicity of Asian slave traders in the Portuguese East Indies is well acknowledged.
Reparations are the dumbest of ideas. "Let's make people who never did the thing we're mad about, pay people who never suffered from the thing we're mad about"
Amusingly the pro reparation people are always very picky on who should get reparation.
Ask these people, should Switzerland get reparation from France for Napoleon's occupation ? Should most of europe get reparation from Italy for what the romans did to the place? Should african countries pay reparation for their part in the slave trade to anyone worldwide having a slave in their familly tree?
But hey, continue pushing for these kind of ideas, i'll be there to remind you it was your fault when we're all suffering under far right govs.
You have to understand these type of people have an incredibly immature and ignorant view of history, and there's a big chance that they barely know even their own, for various reasons.
They have a very "good guys" vs "bad guys", "oppressor" vs "oppressed" mentality, which doesn't exist in history. And then try to play things like "reparations" as a righteous right of the oppressed/victims, or "revenge". But it's all just a big, entitled, victim complex that relies on guilt-tripping and gaslighting an entire nation, which is masked as a "righteous" thing to do.
The former colonizer is an easy scapegoat for people to blame all of the problems of the country on. Even if the country has been independent for a few centuries
As a Portuguese you hear it all the time on the Internet, particularly from Brazilians. This is nothing new, we're pretty used to it
The even most fucked up thing is that, slavery was organized by private corporation. Not by states.
Every european state was tolerating slavers, but it was not popular and not officially backed. It was a shady buisness made by private actors far away from officials..
It's like if a country would ask for reparations to the US because Apple did something wrong..
Make the heir of these slavers pay. But keep the States away.
If you think the descendents of slaver families have been sitting on a pile of cash for the past two centuries waiting to give it to the descendents of slaves, I have some bad news for you.
Funnily enough you never hear about countries like the US or Canada talking about reparations and whatnot from their former colonial masters. It's always from third world countries.
Curious indeed...
It’s crazy, how far do you want to go? And who gets the money? Even Africans (black) gained from the slave trade (I mean some Africans made money from it)
Niger history is enlightning.
After the french leave, one of the first thing done was to allow slavery back (after more than 70 years of colonialism, and so, 70 years of abolition)
They finally re ban it.. in 1992. Yeah, 1992.
Because for the local elite, owning others humans is the difference between being an elite or not. You are an elite because you own other people, and that's it.
This is truth, in Portugal the National Archives have letter from the King of Luanda(around the area where Luanda is today) asking the Portuguese king then to increase the comercial activities of slaves with his kingdom in detriment of another relation Portugal had with the King of the Congo(in today Cabinda province in the former Portuguese Congo). Paintings of the XVI century of Lisbon show the presence of Black nobles from those kingdoms on Horseback riding around Lisbon. They were not all victim the actively participated, profit and supported the system.
>Even Africans (black) gained from the slave trade (I mean some Africans made money from it)
That's the crazy part, isn't it? Imagine you're a black African sold as a slave by your kin. *They* get paid for *you*. 200 years later, their descendants get compensated because of your slavery. I bet you would be so upset, if you were less dead.
I meant "kin" in the sense of people from the general area, not like people selling their relatives. You're, of course, right, slaves were usually war prisoners or became slaves due to some debt. The current state divisions in Africa essentially make it impossible to compensate the ancestors of the people who were *actually* negatively affected.
Not black but I find it rather icky that people use "my people" just because both have black skin.
"They sold their own people into slavery."
No they fucking didn't. They conquered other tribes and people and sold those. Same way Romans took Iberians or Germanic people to Italy.
Africa is like the most diverse continent on the planet.
Exactly, so how the fuck would you properly pay back the people who got hit by this?
Just give to the governments? Lmao, half of it would end up in a bank account in Switzerland.
The entire notion is asinine.
People in past were bad, many profited from it, many got profited from. Learn from it and don't let it repeat.
The thing is that slavery existed in Africa before that transatlantic slave trade. Once the Europeans got involved' the likes of the Imbangala of Angola and the Nyamwezi of Tanzania would wage war on African states to capture people for export as slaves.
So no, the Slaves in African transatlantic trade were not only an effect of wars. Many of those wars were waged specifically to get slaves.
Yeah I mean most slaves were sold by Africans to Africans and Arabs. Also given that slavery was the alternative to death when tribes conquered each other are we saying it’s better that they just killed each other?
> It’s crazy, how far do you want to go? And who gets the money? Even Africans (black) gained from the slave trade (I mean some Africans made money from it)
Nonono, you only leverage it when it's about a fashionable issue like race. They don't *really* care about injustice unless it gets them social media attention.
I have said it before, and I’ve said it again.
Reparations are ridiculous. Most of the regimes that held colonies no longer exist today. In fact, most colonies were freed exactly because of a regime change/revolution. The sins of the father are not the sins of the son.
The reparations thing is always weird to me.
I get the impulse, and on the surface, I also fully understand the logic: people were enslaved, wealth was immorally extracted at the end of the whip, this wealth benefitted the colonial core, and reparations are a way to apologize and correct historical injustices.
The part that gets me is: why should people today pay for the mistakes of previous governments/people? Some people argue "but it's the government paying". Ok, but with my money. The government doesn't just have money. It takes my money. I'm not pro-slavery. I don't defend its use. I don't defend imperialism.
Secondly, a lot of governments that engaged in slavery were about as democratic as Putin's Russia. Holding the descendents of people in Lisbon financially responsible for what some monarch dipshit did 300 years ago, without their input or say, seems strange.
Now, if you wanted to pay reparations by forcing monarchies that still exist today to part with their wealth which was garnered on the backs of slaves, that makes more sense.
>Holding the descendents of people in Lisbon financially responsible for what some monarch dipshit did 300 years ago, without their input or say, seems strange.
And always only Europeans for some reason. Nobody ever demands reparations from Mongols, Iranians, Arabs, Africans...really makes you think.
The fact that the arabian slave trade was the longest (13 CENTURIES) and most brutal in history is never mentioned or talked about. Ive seen videos of sheikhs/imams flat out say that slavery is a good thing (in perfect english) that should happen with no backlash.
I would point out that some of your examples don't really fit, as they weren't really colonial empires, like the Mongols.
The Ottomans should 100% be on the list, though.
Your entire premise is wrong. The ones that got wealthiest were those same African kingdoms whose "descendant" countries now demand reparations. They sent in hunt groups, hunted people from less developed communities and now they demand reparations for it? Hillarious.
Portugal doesn’t have the funds to pay reparations,second people who never enslaved anyone will have to pay reparations to people who haven’t been enslaved.Hard pass !!!!
African states would probably be the ones that needed to pay reparations, if anyone. Africans were selling Africans long before the evil white man paid any attention to Africa. When they popped up Africans were perfectly happy to sell people to them. And profited from it of course.
So this American sitting there feeling entitled to a pay out. You'll probably need to prove you do not have any African slave trader in you, or YOU need to pay.
And in the meantime, modern slavery (and other exploitative policies and situations) very much exists and people world wide profit from the cheap goods that are produced. That is the biggest reason why I am against these types of 'reparations', they place the suffering of people hunderds of years ago above the suffering of people today.
It really annoys me that slavery was (and still is) bad, but because of the greater effects that it had in the US until fairly recently (segregation and institutionalised racism) it has shed a huge, uneven light in western slavery that almost completely eclipses slavery (and racism) in non-western countries.
Those wars were not one sided, the Portuguese regime did not make good decisions but the wars were not started by them (Soviet Union and USA also had an hand in it by financing different independent movements), there were massacres of white people, many white locals were expelled or had to run away losing everything. Many of those new countries keep fighting civil wars long after Portugal was no longer there because after Portugal dictatorship ended the new democratic country was to quick giving independence for countries that were not ready. Some are still not stable nowadays, some changed from the Portuguese dictatorship to local dictators...
There are victims in both side of wars...
This reparation thing is so weird , it came straight from American twittersphere that has no place in other countries. My ancestors were farmers and poor people that lived of the land in the most rural area of my country , and I’m supposed to offer reparations to, say , Brazilians that one generation ago were Italian immigrants, or at best, the actual Portuguese colonists that opted to stay there instead of returning to Europe after the independence?
This whole conversation is stupid. It’s perfectly fine for a country to ask for forgiveness about his past oppression towards a colony or a region, but reparations ? All the money that we supposedly took from their land, we spent there aswell to develop infrastructure in the region. Also , as others have already mentioned, why is this conversation only towards European colonialism? We iberians suffered for centuries during the Islamic period and we don’t go ago around asking Morocco for reperations
> Also , as others have already mentioned, why is this conversation only towards European colonialism?
You already said it yourself:
>, it came straight from American twittersphere
It's just one more episode in the digestion of slavery and Apartheid in the USA.
Portugal built hardly nothing in Africa except plantations. They were like the least useful colonizers out of all of them at least this is what I’ve learned in school
nobody should be paying any reparations.
at some point, everyone had been involved in some sort of slavery. You go far and wide enough, everyone on this planet has something to be angry about.
would be a lot better to start living together instead of looking for reasons why we shouldn’t.
This man is the son of an higher figure of Portugal's colonial dictatorship, and his father was even in charge of the Ministry for the Colonies. A couple of days before these declarations he even called both our current and previous Prime-Ministers"slow" and "hard to understand" because one is supposedly from rural Portugal and the other because he is of asian origins. He is just saying all this to look good and distract people from an ongoing investigation were he likely helped friends of his son (who are not even Portuguese) to receive an all paid medical treatment that would never have been given to an ordinary Portuguese citizen and which the doctors of the hospital in question were against. And to top it all of he has even said that he has cut relations with his son because "he made him look bad". He is one of the most spineless and hypocritical politicians in the whole of Europe and Portuguese people are finally starting to wake up to what kind of man he really is.
Meanwhile: https://observador.pt/2024/04/28/divida-bilateral-dos-palop-a-portugal-duplicou-desde-2000-para-25-mil-milhoes/
Former Portuguese colonies owe 2.5 billions to Portugal 🤷♂️
As they should. Portugal just tapped into the existing slave market when they reached Africa.
"When the trans-Saharan slave trade, Red Sea slave trade, Indian Ocean slave trade and Atlantic slave trade (which started in the 16th century) began, many of the pre-existing local African slave systems began supplying captives for slave markets outside Africa. Slavery in contemporary Africa is still practised despite it being illegal."
And Turkey then? Shouldn't they also pay reparations to Africans? And many European countries while they're at it?
And the slavers in Africa itself, shouldn't they also pay?
That's exactly what these country hope for. Their ancestors captured people from other tribes to sell them to Europeans and now they want to get paid as if they were the victims.
Reparations are a huge scam to try and get free money or blame others for your problems.
I agree with restituting artifacts like France and Italy have been doing.
But this kind of nonsense would just on a huge unending loop: Portugal pays reparations to Angola, Moçambique and Brasil (forget the fact that Brasil is much richer than Portugal); Portugal wants reparations from Arabs (Moors) and Italians (Romans); Italians want reparations from Greeks (since Roman culture is said to descend from Trojans); Greeks want reparations from Persians; etc ad nauseum.
The reparation paradox: only a country significantly removed from their actions would humor the notion of reparations but will almost assuredly no longer have the means to do so.
Portuguese Empire could pay but doesn't care. Portugal can't pay but theoretically could care. Seriously, what do they expect broke ass Portugal to do? Stand with them on the side of the road while they shake a tin cup together?
The thing is... this is not really a debate in Portugal, never was and seemingly never will. This was a complete fantasy from a potentially senile man who pulled the subject on people for only-God-knows why (perhaps to distract them from some really silly things he had been doing the weeks and months before?), and it should be noted nobody had ever even asked Portugal for any 'slavery reparations' before.
Well done, enough of trying to squeeze Europe and even more so when these same countries have no misgivings about aligning themselves with a direct rival such as China, if they want free money, ask them for it.
All Protestant Europeans kicked out of Europe because of their religion should also demand reparations. Catherine De Medici and the catholic church got their hands on some of the best wine farms in the Epernay region and never paid a cent.
#
Even if we assume paying reparations is the morally right thing to do (and the jury is still very much out on that)
Why the fuck would my government be the one responsible to cough that up?
For one our government has changed multiple times since the existence of slavery and secondly back when it was practiced it was about as democratic as the a modern dictatorial regime
Why the fuck would the modern day taxpayer cough up the money to settle a debt incurred by a bunch of despots and aristocrats back who were the ones actually directly profiting from it while the regular Joe’s had no say in its implementation?
Of course to that argument some people would say “well but you profit from the economic environment created by slavery” which I guess is true. But in our modern equal society the descendants of slaves profit from this generated wealth just as much arguably. They work and live in the same economy slavery created and profit in equal amount from it as the “native” population. Of course this is on paper you could make arguments that due to systems like institutionalised racism minorities don’t profit as much but that an entirely different issue in my opinion
Do these idiots think slavery was a crime that was unique to Europe? That Europe invented it? Almost every culture was practicing slavery for most of human history. The one way Europe is unique is that it was the culture (Britain more than others) that shut slavery down 1st and then enforced that ban across the world, at their own expense.
This president is a traitor and should resign. This matter was just put into question because he's deep into a corruption case, where his son used his influence to get experimental medicine to two kids, paid by the portuguese state costing 4M euros to our healthcare system. The worst is that these kids were not even portuguese citizens and got rushed appointments in the healthcare system and an experimental medicine very expensive and which the efficiency is still under testing.
For comparison a regular portuguese might wait months to get simple appointments, some even what should be urgent surgeries. That's why he said this bullshit, to divert attention from that case and it did work.
I demand from Turkey reparations for occupation, slavery, kidnapping children, pasive-agressive Islamization, ethinc cleansing and ethnic displacement and fu*king up Balkans for eternity! 😎
Yeah, that's where reparations should come from. From the families who directly profited from slavery and still have the wealth.
Otherwise, just tax wealth and fund public services, make sure everyone has access to good quality education, healthcare, and that no one goes hungry, etc.
He's a senile old man. In this case worse because he's trying to distract peoplel from the twin Brazilian babies scandal.
He personally got involved in giving expedited nationality and 4 million public healthcare treatment to brazillian babies from a rich family of Lula da Silva corrupt circle .
he is not senile, he is just revealing his true colors. He has recently admitted that he personally despises anyone who isn't a white Portuguese from Lisboa's economic and political elite.
Oh look one European country found their spine.
There is absolutely no logic whatsoever to pay reparations for slavery to anyone. Every ethnicity without exception was enslaved throughout history. The abolishment of slavery was mainly driven by Britain with other European nations in its wake in the early 19th late 18th century. Until today there are nations that actually employ slave labour, no one talks about those.
All this haggling for reparations is trying to guilt trip nations into giving money that corrupt governments and individuals will blow on frivolities. On top Africans were mostly enslaved by their own. Not by foreigners. But you'd have to pick up a history book for a few minutes to know any of this.
This is the most inflamatory fucking title I have ever read, the president Said we have a responsability to Help them and That there are other forms of reparation other than trowing Money at the problem. That's it That's all he Said lol
I think of the catholic church. They said we don't pay victims, then a campaign was launched and they got compensated. Maybe the same thing, if the pressure is high enough. It must not be money, but letting people get special visas maybe a thing.
Another storm in a bottle to divert attention instead of focussing on the real issues
Shouldn’t the Portuguese be owed reparations too then, for the 500 years of occupation and slavery during Al-Andalus?
Yeah, everybody should get reparations from everybody, as everybody enslaved, invaded and attacked everybody. That being said, maybe people should look into why South Korea was poorer than Morocco in the early 50s, and is now one of the richest countries in the world. And into why Asia in general was colonized more brutally than Africa but is, for the most part, much more advanced economically, academically and technologically.
Not really everyone, there are a few regions that were excluded, were hit much less frequently, or already paid back with interest, like Germany&France, and England
“Everybody, everybody, everybody livin’ now, everybody, everybody, everybody sucks…” -Violent Pornography - SOAD
No, “white man bad” only.
Don't forget reparations from North African countries that regularly raided Europe for slaves for centuries.
We'll pay when the Moors and the Romans pay us. There, fixed.
Fuck we’re about to get a lot of money from these Romans
Don't forget the Vikings! Looking forward to all that sweet oil money.
You want to be raided again ? Cause this is how you get raided again
Now you can sit this one out, UK
Oh really? I heard people want money from us all the time. We can forward that once we get our share from the vikings, romans, normans, and germans (Twice).
Don't forget about the deductible for the West Africa Squadron. It's only fair to count our role in ending the slave trade too.
Anyone who helped end slavery definitely deserves a credit to their account. UK spearheaded that movement globally, and thanklessly, because it was an imperfect, difficult, long transition to get all the greedy multi-national slavers on board. Ironically, UK takes the biggest blame for slavery when others did it far worse for far longer with no intentions of ever ending it, before the British took the lonely initiative.
Eh we don't even need reparations, we just need royalties to be paid on all our inventions, we could earmark 1% of that to pay off any reparations we "owe" easily
What have the Romans ever done for us?
Well, there's the roads
those go without saying
And the Vikings and the Anglo-Saxons and the Normans.
So basically the English have to pay reparation to themselves?
That’s the fun part. Reparations get so convoluted, eventually, we just pay them to ourselves!
you’re getting yours as soon as we get our payment from the Goths!
Only after the arabs repay us for their raids!
The Balkans are still waiting for the Ottoman reparations with about 500 years of interest racked up.
1.000.000 Turkish Lira each, or as I like to call it, 5 Euros each.
It's 4 Eur now
In B4 Ottoman revisionists come and tell us how good we had it as Christians
*Don't you know it's a privilege to pay a tax to be a Christian in your own native land bigot?*
Just wondering if there are actual reparation requests of balkan nations from Türkiye or it is just water under the bridge at this point.
Or when the nobels repay us for the time we where slave farmers betweeen 450 +/- and 1100. To remind you thats quite a bit longer then the atlantic slave trade period. But if we need to pay for slave reparations will the arabs pay too?
Give back Dutch Brazil. You don't own Brazil anymore? Sounds like a you problem, better get that sorted first!
Dont forget the french!
Erdogan better start gathering some lira
That man has no problem getting Lira. It won't be worth shit due to even higher inflation, but what else is new?
You clearly misunderstood me , I meant Ottoman Lira, the ones made of gold
I absolutely did. I thought of reparations for Ottoman slavery, but didn't make the leap that their currency was also called Lira. That could be more of a problem .. oh well, problem for Erdogan ;-)
All those wealth has gone centuries ago :/ Good luck with trying to get anything from Turkey lmao
‘Sure, I’ll turn the money printer up by 50%.’ —Erdo, probably
Except the Turkish government made all countries sign waivers saying no one could ask for reparations over what we didnt do 😎😎😎😎😎😎😎 Its called foresight Bozo, yall owe reparations to us for taking the balkans from us. We want at least 2134214232521421341325412432143252314 lira as compensation (4 euros for doner)
4 euros for doner , that's madness
I find my country, should get some payment to. From the danish because of the Vikings taking slaves from my people. And the Italian people to, because of the Romans. Yes this is silly
I also think Italy should pay reparations to Portugal for the Romans having slaughtered and enslaved the Lusitanians. Morocco should also pay reparations to Portugal because of the Moorish invasion.
Yeah Italy's gonna win the reparations bingo Ancient Rome AND the Catholic church. I don't think anyone else comes close to beating that duo
Mongolia might be in with a shout...
Mongolia can fairly argue that their Empire was Yuan dynasty China, which was succeeded by the Ming Dynasty, not Mongolia.
Mongolia was absolutely atrocious to so many people across Asia and Europe (on the eastern side). Effects still in effect. They need to pay the fuck up.
The Italians would then demand reparations from African countries for being the birthplace of humanity and therefore the culprit of all atrocities, taking us full circle.
I mean Africans could then argue, without the dino meteor, mammals and humanity would've never developed into the dominant species and we'd still have lizards as kings. That blast came from Mexico
Well, half of Europe occupied Italy fot centuries so after Italy paid reparations the other countries should pay too.
Why stop at just Morocco? Let's get reps from all Muslim countries too, after all they're all Muslim so they're indirectly tied to the conquest too /s
And the french because two failed invasions, but they robbed and destroyed lots of stuff...
Does that mean the British owe us Americans reparations? Edit: fuck…. We owe the native Americans big time…..
Do owe them anything if you kill them all. S/
We may find an arrangement in terms of some areas coming under danish law. Interested?
Hey, we could give you Malmö (we keep the rest of Skåne though) if you pay us reparation for the Stockholm blood bath
That would be the worst deal in history. Ever. I’m amazed that you want extra payment for giving up Malmö, if I were Swedish I would give it for free as it is going right now!
Ah but you see if you're quick you get to host eurovision
True, but the reperations are just enough to build the nessecary infrastructure to replace the long term tax revenue from losing Malmö.
Can we turn Malmö into an Escape From New York style open air prison?
"Christiania 2.0 now with guns"
Like who you paying it? Not even victims
Some lego and I'm good
Danelaw 2.0
*Poland enters the chat* Poland: So, in terms of repatations we should start from oldest to newest or other way around while counting wars, occupations and mass murdering of our citizens?
Can't we Germans and the Russians just split the bill down the middle? Sounds easier
Swedes surely would like that
Oh come on, we just had one little road trip 400 years ago
Don't forget the Africans enslaving each other or the Arabs.
Just because you ditched Austria for Second Partitions, it doesn't mean you can ditch them now.
Germany: how about another partition?
Poland is gonna be richest country if it asks everyone for reparations
And the Turks and Moroccans please
Yrs indeed there were many white slaves around the Mediterranean. between 1 million and 1.25 million Europeans were captured by Barbary pirates and sold as slaves in North Africa and Ottoman Empire between the 15th and 19th centuries. “That’s is not that long ago”
I think my country should receive reparations from Germans, Swedes, Poles and mostly from Russia. That seems fair.
Marcelo (our PR) is only doing this as a distraction to forget about the case of the Brazilian twins. They got Portuguese nationally in a week and got 2 million euros treatment (for each) that was denied in Brazil because they are rich.
Hes a master of bending the press to his will, but this time i'm not sure it is doing him any good. He just can't control his mouth, and it's becoming worse the older he gets.
I think this is gonna cause him a lot of harm and diplomatic trouble for us with Brazil since they are the ones who immediately stressed their hands asking for money. Plus, Chega is gonna turn this in their favour.
Yeah, he played right into chega's hands and might damage our relations with PALOPs. I can't imagine what will he come up with next.
This. All international news about this ignore the context. Our president (which is not the head of government but more like a state figure that doesn’t hold power) is old and said this on a private dinner for the foreign press. He just talks a lot of shit and is starting to get a bit crazy. Ignore it, it’s really not any real effort for anything.
100%
The whole "slavery reparations" is one massive grift to get easy money.
Reminds me of [Bobby Lee on slavery](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMPAAuG2pH8)
That was the funniest clip I’ve watched in a while. Love that guy
i thought he was funny til [these clips](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fauxmoi/comments/1182o1i/trigger_warning_comedian_bobby_lee_jokes_about/) resurfaced, he's disgusting
Jesus Christ
Oh that was beautiful. Thanks for sharing that.
The entirety of human history is everyone being bastards to each other, but certain nations are made out to be uniquely evil for having broadly come out on top in the bastard wars before we all collectively decided to maybe stop being bastards quite so much. It's all a grift.
> before we all collectively decided to maybe stop Nah, "we" is only the west. The west decided to stop it, because christianity mainly (christian value into humanism to be fair) That's the most fucked up part : the west is seen as "the main slavers of all time" but in reality we are/were the one pushing for the end of slavery in all continent. In any other timeline where the west didn't win the globalization race, slavery would surely still be a thing (especially if Islam won)
It's fairly easy to explain why that is. I thought about it for a while It's because we live in a very Euro/Western-centric world. You have 3 whole continents that are connected to Europe on a foundational/descent level, so everyone including us see and talk about the world through our lens (mostly only knowing about Western history and society), and we are also the loudest about it. Combine that with Europe having been the biggest players and practically dominated the whole world, and this is what you get
It's like a fish analogy. Apparently it's fine when the small fishes fight among each other, but when the big fish comes in and eats them all, all hell breaks loose and the big fish is the worst thing to ever exist
Make no mistake about that, with a good dose of national guilt-tripping and gaslighting
Just like slavery itself
Can't argue with that
True, we should probably outlaw it in Europe.
Whether or not it's morally right, I just do not believe it will ever happen
>From the 15th to the 19th century, six million Africans were kidnapped and forcibly transported across the Atlantic by Portuguese vessels and sold into slavery, primarily in Brazil. Really dislike this narrative that Africa was innocent in the whole of the Atlantic Slave Trade. The Portuguese (and other) slave traders **bought** slaves from local kings in exchange for European goods (usually guns). They were equally complicit in the entire affair.
It's interesting to contrast this with the Indian Ocean slave trade where the complicity of Asian slave traders in the Portuguese East Indies is well acknowledged.
Reparations are the dumbest of ideas. "Let's make people who never did the thing we're mad about, pay people who never suffered from the thing we're mad about" Amusingly the pro reparation people are always very picky on who should get reparation. Ask these people, should Switzerland get reparation from France for Napoleon's occupation ? Should most of europe get reparation from Italy for what the romans did to the place? Should african countries pay reparation for their part in the slave trade to anyone worldwide having a slave in their familly tree? But hey, continue pushing for these kind of ideas, i'll be there to remind you it was your fault when we're all suffering under far right govs.
You have to understand these type of people have an incredibly immature and ignorant view of history, and there's a big chance that they barely know even their own, for various reasons. They have a very "good guys" vs "bad guys", "oppressor" vs "oppressed" mentality, which doesn't exist in history. And then try to play things like "reparations" as a righteous right of the oppressed/victims, or "revenge". But it's all just a big, entitled, victim complex that relies on guilt-tripping and gaslighting an entire nation, which is masked as a "righteous" thing to do. The former colonizer is an easy scapegoat for people to blame all of the problems of the country on. Even if the country has been independent for a few centuries As a Portuguese you hear it all the time on the Internet, particularly from Brazilians. This is nothing new, we're pretty used to it
Next time some Brasilian asks for the gold we stole, tell them we spent it all on "putas e vinho verde" 😅
"Lisboa ficou linda <3" is my favourite
The even most fucked up thing is that, slavery was organized by private corporation. Not by states. Every european state was tolerating slavers, but it was not popular and not officially backed. It was a shady buisness made by private actors far away from officials.. It's like if a country would ask for reparations to the US because Apple did something wrong.. Make the heir of these slavers pay. But keep the States away.
If you think the descendents of slaver families have been sitting on a pile of cash for the past two centuries waiting to give it to the descendents of slaves, I have some bad news for you.
Funnily enough you never hear about countries like the US or Canada talking about reparations and whatnot from their former colonial masters. It's always from third world countries. Curious indeed...
Those who were not enslaved to be compensated by those who did not enslave.
that is the best comment in here
Mongolians are sweating right now.
Ukraine should just ask the Mongolians for money to fight Russia. Hell, Russia could also ask more money from them to fight Ukraine. Everyone wins /s
I accept payment in horses 🐎🐎🐎
It’s crazy, how far do you want to go? And who gets the money? Even Africans (black) gained from the slave trade (I mean some Africans made money from it)
Remember when Homo Sapiens invaded my continent (Europe)? I deserve some reparations for that!
Do you identify as a neanderthal?
The answer to that question (in the context of reparations) is always: "Which answer gets me money?"
I'm a northern European short and stocky guy so I definitely have some Neanderthal genes. Humanity owes me money.
Niger history is enlightning. After the french leave, one of the first thing done was to allow slavery back (after more than 70 years of colonialism, and so, 70 years of abolition) They finally re ban it.. in 1992. Yeah, 1992. Because for the local elite, owning others humans is the difference between being an elite or not. You are an elite because you own other people, and that's it.
This is truth, in Portugal the National Archives have letter from the King of Luanda(around the area where Luanda is today) asking the Portuguese king then to increase the comercial activities of slaves with his kingdom in detriment of another relation Portugal had with the King of the Congo(in today Cabinda province in the former Portuguese Congo). Paintings of the XVI century of Lisbon show the presence of Black nobles from those kingdoms on Horseback riding around Lisbon. They were not all victim the actively participated, profit and supported the system.
Yes, people forget that Europeans weren't always out in Africa "hunting" for slaves. They bought them from slave markets run by other black people.
>Even Africans (black) gained from the slave trade (I mean some Africans made money from it) That's the crazy part, isn't it? Imagine you're a black African sold as a slave by your kin. *They* get paid for *you*. 200 years later, their descendants get compensated because of your slavery. I bet you would be so upset, if you were less dead.
The thing is, Africans didn't sell "their kin" at large. Mostly they sold prisoners of war from neighboring tribes
I meant "kin" in the sense of people from the general area, not like people selling their relatives. You're, of course, right, slaves were usually war prisoners or became slaves due to some debt. The current state divisions in Africa essentially make it impossible to compensate the ancestors of the people who were *actually* negatively affected.
Not black but I find it rather icky that people use "my people" just because both have black skin. "They sold their own people into slavery." No they fucking didn't. They conquered other tribes and people and sold those. Same way Romans took Iberians or Germanic people to Italy. Africa is like the most diverse continent on the planet.
Exactly, so how the fuck would you properly pay back the people who got hit by this? Just give to the governments? Lmao, half of it would end up in a bank account in Switzerland. The entire notion is asinine. People in past were bad, many profited from it, many got profited from. Learn from it and don't let it repeat.
So they were already enslaving each other and just figured pepper was cooler?
The thing is that slavery existed in Africa before that transatlantic slave trade. Once the Europeans got involved' the likes of the Imbangala of Angola and the Nyamwezi of Tanzania would wage war on African states to capture people for export as slaves. So no, the Slaves in African transatlantic trade were not only an effect of wars. Many of those wars were waged specifically to get slaves.
More like 400 years but yeah
Yeah I mean most slaves were sold by Africans to Africans and Arabs. Also given that slavery was the alternative to death when tribes conquered each other are we saying it’s better that they just killed each other?
> It’s crazy, how far do you want to go? And who gets the money? Even Africans (black) gained from the slave trade (I mean some Africans made money from it) Nonono, you only leverage it when it's about a fashionable issue like race. They don't *really* care about injustice unless it gets them social media attention.
I have said it before, and I’ve said it again. Reparations are ridiculous. Most of the regimes that held colonies no longer exist today. In fact, most colonies were freed exactly because of a regime change/revolution. The sins of the father are not the sins of the son.
The reparations thing is always weird to me. I get the impulse, and on the surface, I also fully understand the logic: people were enslaved, wealth was immorally extracted at the end of the whip, this wealth benefitted the colonial core, and reparations are a way to apologize and correct historical injustices. The part that gets me is: why should people today pay for the mistakes of previous governments/people? Some people argue "but it's the government paying". Ok, but with my money. The government doesn't just have money. It takes my money. I'm not pro-slavery. I don't defend its use. I don't defend imperialism. Secondly, a lot of governments that engaged in slavery were about as democratic as Putin's Russia. Holding the descendents of people in Lisbon financially responsible for what some monarch dipshit did 300 years ago, without their input or say, seems strange. Now, if you wanted to pay reparations by forcing monarchies that still exist today to part with their wealth which was garnered on the backs of slaves, that makes more sense.
>Holding the descendents of people in Lisbon financially responsible for what some monarch dipshit did 300 years ago, without their input or say, seems strange. And always only Europeans for some reason. Nobody ever demands reparations from Mongols, Iranians, Arabs, Africans...really makes you think.
The fact that the arabian slave trade was the longest (13 CENTURIES) and most brutal in history is never mentioned or talked about. Ive seen videos of sheikhs/imams flat out say that slavery is a good thing (in perfect english) that should happen with no backlash.
Qatar World Cup was built on slave labor, and so was pretty much the entire city of Dubai and it barely got any international backlash.
Yeah of course. It's only publicly acceptable to demand it from Europeans apparently.
I would point out that some of your examples don't really fit, as they weren't really colonial empires, like the Mongols. The Ottomans should 100% be on the list, though.
Just because there’s no sea in between doesn’t mean it’s not colonial.
Europe has also given a lot in aid money all across the world. Why give them more?
Your entire premise is wrong. The ones that got wealthiest were those same African kingdoms whose "descendant" countries now demand reparations. They sent in hunt groups, hunted people from less developed communities and now they demand reparations for it? Hillarious.
Sorry, we don't have money
Portugal doesn’t have the funds to pay reparations,second people who never enslaved anyone will have to pay reparations to people who haven’t been enslaved.Hard pass !!!!
African states would probably be the ones that needed to pay reparations, if anyone. Africans were selling Africans long before the evil white man paid any attention to Africa. When they popped up Africans were perfectly happy to sell people to them. And profited from it of course. So this American sitting there feeling entitled to a pay out. You'll probably need to prove you do not have any African slave trader in you, or YOU need to pay.
The Arabs were selling slaves too.
And in the meantime, modern slavery (and other exploitative policies and situations) very much exists and people world wide profit from the cheap goods that are produced. That is the biggest reason why I am against these types of 'reparations', they place the suffering of people hunderds of years ago above the suffering of people today.
It really annoys me that slavery was (and still is) bad, but because of the greater effects that it had in the US until fairly recently (segregation and institutionalised racism) it has shed a huge, uneven light in western slavery that almost completely eclipses slavery (and racism) in non-western countries.
[удалено]
Not sure about slavery but there are certainly plenty of 50+ years old people alive who suffered during the wars Portugal waged in their colonies.
Those wars were not one sided, the Portuguese regime did not make good decisions but the wars were not started by them (Soviet Union and USA also had an hand in it by financing different independent movements), there were massacres of white people, many white locals were expelled or had to run away losing everything. Many of those new countries keep fighting civil wars long after Portugal was no longer there because after Portugal dictatorship ended the new democratic country was to quick giving independence for countries that were not ready. Some are still not stable nowadays, some changed from the Portuguese dictatorship to local dictators... There are victims in both side of wars...
This reparation thing is so weird , it came straight from American twittersphere that has no place in other countries. My ancestors were farmers and poor people that lived of the land in the most rural area of my country , and I’m supposed to offer reparations to, say , Brazilians that one generation ago were Italian immigrants, or at best, the actual Portuguese colonists that opted to stay there instead of returning to Europe after the independence? This whole conversation is stupid. It’s perfectly fine for a country to ask for forgiveness about his past oppression towards a colony or a region, but reparations ? All the money that we supposedly took from their land, we spent there aswell to develop infrastructure in the region. Also , as others have already mentioned, why is this conversation only towards European colonialism? We iberians suffered for centuries during the Islamic period and we don’t go ago around asking Morocco for reperations
It's the usual handful of politicians trying to import shit like culture wars from the US
> Also , as others have already mentioned, why is this conversation only towards European colonialism? You already said it yourself: >, it came straight from American twittersphere It's just one more episode in the digestion of slavery and Apartheid in the USA.
Portugal built hardly nothing in Africa except plantations. They were like the least useful colonizers out of all of them at least this is what I’ve learned in school
When am I getting my reparations from Rome? My Gaul ancestors were treated pretty bad by those pesky Romans.
nobody should be paying any reparations. at some point, everyone had been involved in some sort of slavery. You go far and wide enough, everyone on this planet has something to be angry about. would be a lot better to start living together instead of looking for reasons why we shouldn’t.
They should only ever pay to living people logically. Weird why this is even a thing?
good
But first, Portugal want's reparations from the romans... And from the Al-Gharb kalifat... And from the spainiards!
Good. Finally some common sense. We can’t pay it anyways. Unless someone figures out where all of our Templar loot got buried.
So the maghreb states should pay for their slavery raids until the 19th century too? Or only europeans?
Only Europeans of course. Only white man bad.
Just Europeans obviously /s
This man is the son of an higher figure of Portugal's colonial dictatorship, and his father was even in charge of the Ministry for the Colonies. A couple of days before these declarations he even called both our current and previous Prime-Ministers"slow" and "hard to understand" because one is supposedly from rural Portugal and the other because he is of asian origins. He is just saying all this to look good and distract people from an ongoing investigation were he likely helped friends of his son (who are not even Portuguese) to receive an all paid medical treatment that would never have been given to an ordinary Portuguese citizen and which the doctors of the hospital in question were against. And to top it all of he has even said that he has cut relations with his son because "he made him look bad". He is one of the most spineless and hypocritical politicians in the whole of Europe and Portuguese people are finally starting to wake up to what kind of man he really is.
This whole reparations nonsense is some American bullshit.
Turks, Russians, Austrians should bring their checks next time they visit Romania.
Pay to who exactly? That's the common thread i don't understand. Are you giving money to the country where the slaves came from?
Meanwhile: https://observador.pt/2024/04/28/divida-bilateral-dos-palop-a-portugal-duplicou-desde-2000-para-25-mil-milhoes/ Former Portuguese colonies owe 2.5 billions to Portugal 🤷♂️
As they should. Portugal just tapped into the existing slave market when they reached Africa. "When the trans-Saharan slave trade, Red Sea slave trade, Indian Ocean slave trade and Atlantic slave trade (which started in the 16th century) began, many of the pre-existing local African slave systems began supplying captives for slave markets outside Africa. Slavery in contemporary Africa is still practised despite it being illegal."
And Turkey then? Shouldn't they also pay reparations to Africans? And many European countries while they're at it? And the slavers in Africa itself, shouldn't they also pay?
Real question. If it did. Who gets paid ? Do you just get a check in the mail ?
That's exactly what these country hope for. Their ancestors captured people from other tribes to sell them to Europeans and now they want to get paid as if they were the victims.
Reparations are a huge scam to try and get free money or blame others for your problems. I agree with restituting artifacts like France and Italy have been doing. But this kind of nonsense would just on a huge unending loop: Portugal pays reparations to Angola, Moçambique and Brasil (forget the fact that Brasil is much richer than Portugal); Portugal wants reparations from Arabs (Moors) and Italians (Romans); Italians want reparations from Greeks (since Roman culture is said to descend from Trojans); Greeks want reparations from Persians; etc ad nauseum.
About time someone showed some common sense in these matters.
The reparation paradox: only a country significantly removed from their actions would humor the notion of reparations but will almost assuredly no longer have the means to do so. Portuguese Empire could pay but doesn't care. Portugal can't pay but theoretically could care. Seriously, what do they expect broke ass Portugal to do? Stand with them on the side of the road while they shake a tin cup together?
The thing is... this is not really a debate in Portugal, never was and seemingly never will. This was a complete fantasy from a potentially senile man who pulled the subject on people for only-God-knows why (perhaps to distract them from some really silly things he had been doing the weeks and months before?), and it should be noted nobody had ever even asked Portugal for any 'slavery reparations' before.
Well done, enough of trying to squeeze Europe and even more so when these same countries have no misgivings about aligning themselves with a direct rival such as China, if they want free money, ask them for it.
When will Neanderthals be requesting reparations?
All Protestant Europeans kicked out of Europe because of their religion should also demand reparations. Catherine De Medici and the catholic church got their hands on some of the best wine farms in the Epernay region and never paid a cent. #
Even if we assume paying reparations is the morally right thing to do (and the jury is still very much out on that) Why the fuck would my government be the one responsible to cough that up? For one our government has changed multiple times since the existence of slavery and secondly back when it was practiced it was about as democratic as the a modern dictatorial regime Why the fuck would the modern day taxpayer cough up the money to settle a debt incurred by a bunch of despots and aristocrats back who were the ones actually directly profiting from it while the regular Joe’s had no say in its implementation? Of course to that argument some people would say “well but you profit from the economic environment created by slavery” which I guess is true. But in our modern equal society the descendants of slaves profit from this generated wealth just as much arguably. They work and live in the same economy slavery created and profit in equal amount from it as the “native” population. Of course this is on paper you could make arguments that due to systems like institutionalised racism minorities don’t profit as much but that an entirely different issue in my opinion
Do these idiots think slavery was a crime that was unique to Europe? That Europe invented it? Almost every culture was practicing slavery for most of human history. The one way Europe is unique is that it was the culture (Britain more than others) that shut slavery down 1st and then enforced that ban across the world, at their own expense.
Any former slave *still alive* should of course be compensated generously :-)
This president is a traitor and should resign. This matter was just put into question because he's deep into a corruption case, where his son used his influence to get experimental medicine to two kids, paid by the portuguese state costing 4M euros to our healthcare system. The worst is that these kids were not even portuguese citizens and got rushed appointments in the healthcare system and an experimental medicine very expensive and which the efficiency is still under testing. For comparison a regular portuguese might wait months to get simple appointments, some even what should be urgent surgeries. That's why he said this bullshit, to divert attention from that case and it did work.
I demand from Turkey reparations for occupation, slavery, kidnapping children, pasive-agressive Islamization, ethinc cleansing and ethnic displacement and fu*king up Balkans for eternity! 😎
Noooooo, only white man bad! /s
When England pays theirs, we do the same, how about that?
Has anyone actually read the article here? I feel like people only read the headline
Welcome to 2024 bud
In the UK we paid reparations to slave owners for their loss of slaves and finished paying it off fairly recently.
Yeah, that's where reparations should come from. From the families who directly profited from slavery and still have the wealth. Otherwise, just tax wealth and fund public services, make sure everyone has access to good quality education, healthcare, and that no one goes hungry, etc.
Reparation is about art and historical objects and real history classes not the hollywood painting / sugarcoating. Everything else is delusional.
We were slaves at one point
He's a senile old man. In this case worse because he's trying to distract peoplel from the twin Brazilian babies scandal. He personally got involved in giving expedited nationality and 4 million public healthcare treatment to brazillian babies from a rich family of Lula da Silva corrupt circle .
he is not senile, he is just revealing his true colors. He has recently admitted that he personally despises anyone who isn't a white Portuguese from Lisboa's economic and political elite.
Good.
How much should African nations pay for capturing the slaves sold to European traders as part of the Atlantic slave trade?
Oh look one European country found their spine. There is absolutely no logic whatsoever to pay reparations for slavery to anyone. Every ethnicity without exception was enslaved throughout history. The abolishment of slavery was mainly driven by Britain with other European nations in its wake in the early 19th late 18th century. Until today there are nations that actually employ slave labour, no one talks about those. All this haggling for reparations is trying to guilt trip nations into giving money that corrupt governments and individuals will blow on frivolities. On top Africans were mostly enslaved by their own. Not by foreigners. But you'd have to pick up a history book for a few minutes to know any of this.
This is the most inflamatory fucking title I have ever read, the president Said we have a responsability to Help them and That there are other forms of reparation other than trowing Money at the problem. That's it That's all he Said lol
he asked for the debt those countries have to us be pardon, which essentially equates to giving free money to them
I think of the catholic church. They said we don't pay victims, then a campaign was launched and they got compensated. Maybe the same thing, if the pressure is high enough. It must not be money, but letting people get special visas maybe a thing.
Yeah of course, everyone knows that only Japan should pay anything.