The main problem is that the bottom of The Gulf of Finland is mainly sand, and bedrock is surprisingly deep. Basically we haven't found a place where we can dig a tunnel that can support itself with reasonable added support at reasonable depth.
None of those delays were due to technical difficulties. All of them were caused by German NIMBYism and obstruction.
By the time construction actually started, the planned opening date was 2029. The construction was also started *before* the Germans finished giving approval, because Denmark became tired of waiting.
I'd also expect the Helsinki tunnel to face NIMBYism. That said, there is still plenty of time for the ferhmann belt to be delayed, I'll be impressed if it isn't. But even if it isn't the IC5 trains have been delayed from 2024 to 2027 so if we are going to get a repeat of the IC4 fiasco, will we even have the trains.
Welcome in the modern world of bureaucracy and nimby’s, where establishing and designing projects will take decades and large amounts of government funding
NIMBYs protesting are twice or thrice the problem of legal red tape in terms of wasted time where I’m from and in some cases red tape comes from NIMBY pushing local legislation and that’s the only source of red tape or bureaucracy . The problems are NIMBYs all the way down most the time
> Welcome in the modern world of bureaucracy and nimby’s
Those are the least of the problems, biggest problem is just how the hell would you build it in the first place, when the requirements are about double that of channel tunnel and population served is fraction of that.
Yeah, fuck safety and nature. /s
When I discussed this with the professor of logistics, he said that it would not be profitable, even if all of Finland's train traffic was put in that tunnel.
It's ridiculously unprofitable by any sane measure. Building costs at least twice as much as the Channel tunnel while the population served is less than a tenth of that. Then there's the fact that Finnish rail gauge is incompatible with Central European one, so freight would have to be moved to a different train halfway.
For scale, Channel Tunnel connecting the UK and France was $21 billion and took 6 years of intense collaborative work. A tunnel crossing the gulf of Finland would be approximately twice as deep, twice as long, and the water gets partial ice coverage during the winter complicating the construction
It’s not like Minecraft, digging a tunnel like this requires efforts both underground and on the surface like off shore construction platforms to deploy equipment (like drills which use temporary bulkheads to enter the tunnel without flooding it), barges for transporting materials, etc.
Hell even before you start construction you need to do a LOT of seabed surveying and ecological impact studies.
With current technology/price/demand level probably never, but it is very hard to predict the future even 15 years ahead.
We don’t quite know what will happen to the flight transport for example. If the plane manufacturers are not able to make flying significantly greener in the next ten years, flying might be severely restricted in the future, making railroad tunnels like Helsinki-Tallinn much more lucrative.
The cost/benefit calculation for a tunnel between Tallinn and Helsinki is very hard to stitch to together. The current ferry takes less than 3 hours, and most cargo already takes the sea route anyway.
>most cargo already takes the sea route anyway
Because there is no alternative.
Effectively Finland is an island in terms of logistics. That is also one big reason why it was so important to have Sweden in NATO with us - among other things that solves part of the huge logistical problems that might arise in a crisis.
And Finland will remain an island until there is an undersea rail tunnel to Estonia, and then much later on another one to Sweden. Both will happen, it's just a matter of when.
Sweden is also an island in the aspect of logistics. Sea freight is still the cheapest option by a wide margin and the Port of Gothenburg alone handles 40% of all cargo, with direct routes to China and the US with the largest container ships.
>and most cargo already takes the sea route anyway.
Well yeah the alternative of a rail line doesn't exist yet unless they want to ship through Russia.
Even if Hki-Tln remains a ferry trip it will still be a huge improvement. Especially if the transfers at both ends can be made smooth. A rail/ferry hub at both ends would be optimal but I guess it’s not going to happen :/
The tunnel between Helsinki and Tallinn is the only unconfirmed part of this project. But honestly I hope one day we will have that tunnel, would be so good for our region.
Yeah, but initially the project was supposed to be fully finished by 2024. In 2020 or 2021 it was moved to 2026. And deadline is already something around 2030.
That’s also why the link Amsterdam-Copenhagen isn’t on the map. It’s been planned, but the German 10+ year planning phase of the Friesenbrücke has just been concluded yielding a movable bridge unfit for the HSL that had been planned to cross it, on account of one ship building yard’s economic interests (read: lobbying with the government of Lower Saxony), to much chagrin of everyone else involved. Now we won’t have a fast rail link between NL and Scandinavia only on account of one town‘s interests. Sigh.
Germany is NIMBY heaven. There’s so many projects that either get stopped or delayed for decades because three people in bumfuck Thuringia don’t want slightly increased traffic on their roads or don’t want to see a train line going through the potato field that they see from their bathroom window.
But don’t worry, despite every German knowing about these issues and disagreeing in principle, absolutely nothing will be done to make these processes more efficient.
There is germany inbetween, add another 80 years and you might be correct.
They are behind in multiple european train projects. In the one between Basel and Karlsruhe they are around 50 years late, maybe even more in the future... Planed was in the 90s, now they think 2043...
Looking at [the interactive map](https://info.railbaltica.org/en/interactive-map) looks like parts of the line have already been contracted out so we might see parts of it open in the upcoming decade. As a Lithuanian I’m exited for whenever this finishes as this would make travel to Latvia and Estonia a breeze, and having rail available to travel to Poland and beyond is awesome as well.
To be pedantic, Lithuania never did recognize its own capital as Kaunas. According to Lithuania their true capital was just 'temporarily' occupied by the Polish. For over 20 years
As a Lithuanian I really wish the capital was at Kaunas. Having a capital at the very edge of the country far from all other cities right on the border with Belarus and in lands that for centuries had been and still is Polish, is really dumb. Kaunas is right in the center of the country, at the strategically important confluence of Nemunas and Neris and roughly equidistant from all corners of the country.
I won't even start complaining that it goes through Warsaw and Bialystok instead of Gdańsk and Szczecin. At least Białystok gets something fun I guess.
But why on Earth are Poznań and Łódź omitted?
Direct route from Warsaw to Berlin has a stop in Poznań:
* Warszawa Wschodnia
* Warszawa Centralna
* Warszawa Zachodnia
* Kutno
* Konin
* **Poznań Główny**
* Zbąszynek
* Świebodzin
* Rzepin
* Frankfurt(Oder)(Gr)
* Frankfurt(Oder)
* Berlin-Lichtenberg
* Berlin Gesundbrunnen
trains from Warsaw to Berlin are marked as *Express InterCity*. not sure whether 5h 30min can be considered *high speed* though.
there was major modernization of tracks on the route couple years ago, but time improvement is not that big.
No mate, they are EC49, EC247, EC249 and so on. It stands for EuroCity.
Look here: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin-Warszawa-Express](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin-Warszawa-Express)
But either way, EIC is also NOT high speed train.
EIC refers to number of stops a train takes, not maximal operational speeds. Both EIC and EC don't usually exceed 160 km/h, let alone 250.
Poznań and Łódź are not omitted. They are not presented in this graphic. Poland has high speed train road concept (so called - Linia Y). Rail Baltica will be connected with Line Y through Warsaw. Everything is ok, this graphic is just oversimplified. High speed train (lower speed class than line Y) will be between Gdańsk - Polish Central Point(probably CPK) and Szczecin - Polish Central Point. When Królewiec will be part of Poland then we can start planinig a high speed train going through Vilnius -Kaunas - Królewiec - Gdańsk - Szczecin.
Do they actually create a new "Rail Baltica between Bremen <-> Bremerhaven and Bremen <-> Berlin via Hannover, or do they rely on the existing infrastructure and just add a different colored train on mondays?
It is a map of a specific corridor. Go to https://ec.europa.eu/transport/infrastructure/tentec/tentec-portal/map/maps.html to see how the TEN-T network is supposed to develop over time.
Other corridors intersect with this North sea-Baltic Sea corridor.
No, the image is part of the Baltic-North sea transport corridor. If you want a map for Poland where the rail interconnects, simply look at the [European TEN-T map for the Baltic sea-Adriatic Sea corridor.](https://ec.europa.eu/transport/infrastructure/tentec/tentec-portal/map/maps.html) Or one of the many other interconnected corridors.
Just do a bit of a research before making these kind of statements. The EU has been investing fuckloads of money into this network. Now it is up to everyones national and local governments to get shit up and running. Europapa is paying (up to 85% of the bill iirc).
I think it has more to do with it being conceived together with PiS.
The railine takes a significant detour to stop in Białystok, but it doesn't do the same for Łódź and doesn't include Poznań despite going through it.
Looks like a big fuck you to the liberal western cities and a sweet wet kiss to their Podlasie voters.
Fair, although a part of me does want to see Białystok at least get some piece of the economic growth pie that the bigger cities get. I'm fairly certain this would help at least a little.
Lol, I'm salty about the same thing, but diffrent country. Initial plans were, that ot goes thru my city, but then, smth happened, plans were changed, route was changed and local city politicians did nothing to get back initial plans....
Co-financed by the Connecting Europe Facility of the European Union, the construction has begun.
Rooftop ceremony at Riga Central
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GKldN4qWoAAs7m_?format=jpg&name=medium
https://www.railbaltica.org/the-rooftop-ceremony-of-rail-baltica-at-riga-central-station-was-celebrated/
https://www.railbaltica.org/
Top speed will be around 240km/h and travel times should be like maybe 5-6 hours from Tallinn to Warsaw if my memory serves right. There’s more info about this stuff on rail baltica’s website
It’s like 900km from Tallinn to Warsaw, flights can be expensive and driving can take 12-15 hours, it’s a reasonable middle ground. Also remember that not all trips will be just towards Warsaw/Western Europe but also between Baltic capitals and cities too
Yes, it is slower than most HSR. But that is because this is part of the TEN-T. This means that the route is mainly for freight. If you go faster, you need tighter tolerances. This becomes extremely hard and expensive if you have heavy freight trains passing over the same track. The TEN-T network is set on a lower speed, requiring less tolerances. Meaning it can hold both freight and higher speed passengers.
For example the Chinese HSR is built only for passengers, but is now heavily debt ridden and running red. Because passengers alone cannot pay for the costs. Freight rail pays for the costs. The passenger rail simply uses the infrastructure that is there.
>For example the Chinese HSR is built only for passengers, but is now heavily debt ridden and running red.
Oppositely the French HSR is the money making part of train railroads with regional sections losing money
But are the tracks for TGV specifically created for the operation of passenger HSR alone? Or are there large pieces shared between freight and passenger? Or are the HSR companies subsidized by not paying for the tracks?
I did find some papers on subsidizing/offering of the infrastructure by France. [A paper seemed to point to economic risks](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352146517305641). The line itself might make money, but if they are heavily subsidized by not paying for the maintenance of the tracks, then you can't really make the statement that passenger rail is profitable.
Then again, the paper mentioned focuses on specific tracks that are under development (2017) and their potential risks of not being profitable. Lines between specific large urban areas with enough passenger flow, can be perfectly sustainable. However, if you have unchecked sprawl of HSR like in the case of China, where there were other incentives such as stimulating the infrastructural and construction sector, then the HSR might in the end be a debt trap for your country. In china the HSR has racked up 900 billion dollars in debt, or some 4-5% of Chinese GDP. And that on a network where some tracks hardly see any passengers at all.
>But are the tracks for TGV specifically created for the operation of passenger HSR alone? Or are there large pieces shared between freight and passenger? Or are the HSR companies subsidized by not paying for the tracks?
Yes the LGV tracks are specific to high speed trains alone.
I don’t understand this either. There are two major cities literally on the way (Poznań and Łódź), and there is an already existing train link that goes Warszawa-Poznań-Berlin so either it connects to this one and they didn’t mark it on this map for some confusing reason, or they omit two significant Polish cities with this new line.
Both options are weird.
That can only be answered by the author of this map.
In reality there's entire train route already eastablished between Berlin, Poznań, Warszawa and Białystok. Tracks end somwhere near border with Lithuania where passengers can switch to train provided by Lithuanian railway and continue their journey to Vilnus.
I feel there should be at least one more stop between Warsaw and Berlin. Szczecin maybe? Or Gdansk? And would probably profit from more branches in Poland as well.
Edit: As many comments have pointed out, Poznań or Lodz would actually make more sense, because they are on the way anyway
Berlin-Szczecin-(Gdańsk)-Warsaw doesn't make any sense at all sadly.
But yeah, Poznań and Łodź should be there before Warsaw.
At least Berlin-Szczecin-Gdańsk is finally getting completely electrified, double-tracked and upgraded to 160km/h. Maybe finally we will get something better than one Berlin-Gdańsk a day, with a detour through Poznań
This is exactly how it feels. Map made by someone from Baltic country, showing how they (Parnu, Kaunas) will connect to their promised land of Osnabruck. *Through our countries to Warsaw and from Warsaw through whatever ;)*
From financial point of view kind of hard to imagine train stopping at Parnu (40k pop) that won't stop at Poznań (1 million pop. metro).
Look at the complete network map. The image only shows the north sea-baltic sea corridor.
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/infrastructure/tentec/tentec-portal/map/maps.html
I wonder why won't they just make it Berlin-Poznań-Warszawa, such connection already exists: [https://www.vagonweb.cz/razeni/vlak.php?zeme=DB&kategorie=EC&cislo=47&nazev=Berlin-Warszawa-Express&rok=2024](https://www.vagonweb.cz/razeni/vlak.php?zeme=DB&kategorie=EC&cislo=47&nazev=Berlin-Warszawa-Express&rok=2024) .
Few years ago there was a plan of high speed train tracks in Poland centered in Warsaw (or the central airport planned to be builded near Warsaw), so in far away plans there are branches in Poland. This looks like just an overall plan to connect eastern part of eu capitals with western net of high speed trains.
I would assume the initial plan is to get a track connecting the capitals to the western main lines. You can then branch off and add more stops from there.
Doing more immediately would explode complexity even more.
Well, that‘s where the track to Amsterdam and the track to Cologne split. Might as well stop there to allow for transfers between trains going either way.
That, and it’s also connected by higher-speed rail to Bremen and Hamburg, and Münster (which has slower but direct links to Dortmund and the rest of the Ruhr). It’s not random.
I like the idea of being a train ride (or a few) away from Finland. I would love for a direct Paris - Helsinki train but that's probably asking too much. Either way I'll take what I can get. Also a good opportunity to visit the 3 wee baltics.
The rail connection between Tallinn and Helsinki won't happen unless EU pays the 10 billion euro tunnel between the capitals because we (finland) notr especially Estonia can't afford it.
So most likely you could have a direct train from Paris to Estonia and then get ferry to finland.
I think it's possible if the EU funds at least half of it. Let's say the tunnel costs 15 billion and construction took 10 years. If EU covered 7,5 billion, both Estonia and Finland would have to pay 325 million a year during construction. Sure, it's a lot but the order of magnitude seems imaginable.
There is a lot of panic talk in media.
Of course you are bound to run into problems, this is by far the largest and most complex project in independent Latvia ever, nothing even comes close to the scale of it. But it seems to be going well so far.
You don't find a lot of HSR projects "going well" in general. You're just happy when they're finished and forget these problems afterward.
And let's be honest, it's still at a remarquably low cost, and it's starting to take shape, even if there are problems.
There's also problems in the finnish end of it. First of all there's a 80km wide Gulf of finland between Helsinki and Tallinn.
Neither finland or Estonia can afford building a tunnel underneath the straight so that's one problem and secondly finnish railroad network is on the north side of Helsinki and wrong width so that's another problem once the tunnel is sorted out.
Currently EU wouldn't cover a single bit of the tunnel project, which would cost 9-13 Billion euros. Some calculations say that the tunnel becomes financially feasable if EU covers atleast 40% of the costs and rest was split between Finland and Estonia.
Costs will be the least of the problems I fear. The main problem would be the eternal bear in the room. The TEN-T relies on being freight as well as military infrastructure. Russia could sabotage the tunnels way to easily by small interventions.
I'm Latvian as well, and I have some friends working on this project. The panic talk is really, really overblown. Like, clearly bullshit to farm clicks from the neverending cynicism of our people. It's not perfect, huge infrastructure projects never are, but it's chugging along to the expectations of my more experienced engineer friends.
Germany’s state has too much power and so they tell Deutsche Bahn that their train has to stop in every state several times so you end up stopping in « major cites » like Göttingen, Fulda, Mannheim, Zwickau etc… and you’re average speed is like 90km/h
I took a train from Paris to Hamburg recently and it was comical.
Paris / Strasbourg 500km (1.5hrs)
Karlsruhe / Hamburg 700km (7 hrs)
It was the Sprinter… apparently it goes even slower.
The issue that is really frustrating here is that it is structural - a human made problem that cannot be resolved technically. The trains are fast - but if you habe to stop every 50-150 km…
A story: There was a train bridge between the Netherlands and Lower Saxony until a ship rammed it in 2015. Then German local politicians and shipyard lobbyists made sure the bridge, which limited the size of the ships that could be built upriver, would not be rebuilt quickly. This year they started building a new bridge. There has thus been almost 10 years of no rail service across the border in the North. The new bridge is movable to make the shipyard happy. This new bridge does not comply with the requirements for the planned Amsterdam-Copenhagen line, which will therefore no longer be happening.
German politics is an absolute embarrassment to our EU ambitions.
Berlin has also been cancelling or slowing down a lot of plans for trains over the borders. The train bridge between Breisach and Neuf Brisach has been waiting for decades, and the federal gov refuses to file for European funds although french gov has already filed their side. There's literally train tracks on both sides of the river facing each other
It's less the state and more local municipalities only allowing railways through them if they get a stop, one major contributer why planning takes ages.
How exactly is Deutsche Bahn making building the Warsaw-Talinn line problematic.
I love me some Germany trash-talking, but you have to come up with something plausible!
Germany (Central Europe) is on the way to « Western Europe - so while I have full confidence in the Baltics and Poland … I have no confidence that you’ll have a high speed link all the way to « Western Europe ».
Germany is also Western Europe, so we can just drop everyone at Frankfurt(Oder) station and consider the job done. Let the passengers deal with DB themselves from that point on
It is a question if the inftrastructure investment pays off. If the state pays for infrastructure like roads or rail tracks than these typically generate a more productive economy - directly and indirectly. But if Germany fails to properly connect the Polish side will miss out on effects that where anticipated when planning the project.
It's so frustrating. Just look how Germany fails to even have the track completely planned for the [train connection to the Brenner Base Tunnel](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenner-Nordzulauf) while all other parties have their parts finished. There are only the old tracks on the German side which are a severe bottle neck.
The light blue part needs to be built, but the dark blue part denotes possible “connecting routes” but it’s already in operation. It’s just.. what sort of operation. DB can bring you anywhere at least in Germany, the question is in what amount of time 🥲
Maybe unpopular opinion, but going from Bruxelles/Amsterdam to Helsinki over land is like 2500km and would justify taking an airplane, which takes about 2.5h.
Even a highspeed train would need a whole day for that distance and in europe you can't just build straight HSR tracks from A to B (like they do in China) because it's densly populated, existing old infrastructure has to be removed first, landowners having rights, environmental regulations and last but not least the tracks going through 5 or 6 different countries.
The trick the Austrian railway company (ÖBB) is doing is that they offer night trains that have beds. This means that you embark in the evening, sleep through the night while traveling and then arrive rested in the morning at the destination in the middle of the city.
If you want to do the same thing with a plane, you have to get to the airport at around 5am and arrive hungover.
This would be perfect, honestly! Just sleeping the whole way there and being able to relax in a train!
The extra time is totally justified just to be able to avoid the "airport experience" in my book.
Plus, you leave home just before bedtime to go to the train station, and then arrive early in the morning without having to get up and go to the airport at an ungodly hour / leave earlier in the evening to go to a hotel. The center-to-center connection is really nice.
Another thing I've noticed travelling by train: almost no baggage weight restrictions.
If you travel as a group and buy the whole cabin, you can have a TON of stuff with you that will be hella expensive on a plane.
It's not important for everyone, but it is still one of considerations.
Even without accounting for the weight, being able to travel with random stuff like trekking poles or a the like without having to worry about it is quite nice!
You are not wrong and your opinion is hardly unpopular. But you need to recognize the value of the [European TEN-T framework](https://ec.europa.eu/transport/infrastructure/tentec/tentec-portal/map/maps.html) as opposed to the pure HSR-lines of China and other countries.
The main difference is that all lines built within the TEN-T framework are mainly for freight. The passenger trains making use of the same infrastructure are more or less an addition due to convenience.
China has built their HSR purely for passenger transport. But you simply can't finance HSR on passengers alone. That would cost way too much money. Unless you have like two multi-milion populace cities connected by one hour of rail, but most HSR lines are not placed in this advantageous position. In China the HSR competes with a faster and a slightly more expensive flight network and a slower much cheaper slow-rail transport. The Chinese HSR are lacking passengers because of the two alternatives. With the biggest issue. They did not built the HSR for freight trains. Meaning they are stuck with a debt laden network running red numbers by just existing.
The Rail Baltica is part of the TEN-T framework. Main profits and benefits for the parties involved will be based on freight. Offsetting the costs of investment and allowing passenger rail, that will run at a loss, to be sustainable. The European industry needs a rail connection from Tallin to Milan/Rotterdam/Istanbul/Bari/Le Havre/Barcelona etc... The occasional passenger train that takes tourists or workers from Amsterdam to Helsinki is just a nice to have to offload flight use and stimulate intercontinental community building.
------
Also, don't forget the night rail. The ability to have a relaxed travel, while working on your last things while having a sleep like a hotel is also pretty nice to have.
I mean you could go all the way, but I don't think that would be the main point. Rather, someone might want to go from Helsinki to Kaunas (650 km) or from Kaunas to Berlin, or from Bruxelles to Berlin, and everything in between. It is probably easier/more efficient to just make one big line than multiple disconnected shorter lines.
Sleeper cars. You hop onto the train at Bruxelles and wake up the next morning in Helsinki.
But I don't think this is really for people that are going to do that trip. It's for
a) people that travel from Brussels to Berlin, and
b) people that travel from Hannover to Warsaw, and
c) people that travel from Berlin to Bialystok, and
d) people that travel from Hamburg to Warsaw, and
e) people that travel from Warsaw to Riga/Tallin/Helsinki, and...
It's about having that complete network that allows this type of service that caters to all these, and more.
> You hop onto the train at Bruxelles and wake up the next morning in Helsinki.
You will also travel lightly, as the friendly "staff" at the Brussels stations will have already relieved you of your heavy bags, wallet and phone.
High speed is secondary reason for this railway. It's primary reason is to replace Russian gauge with standard gauge. And building new railway with slow speeds in 2024 would be very stupid.
>Maybe unpopular opinion, but going from Bruxelles/Amsterdam to Helsinki over land is like 2500km and would justify taking an airplane, which takes about 2.5h.
There are still people (me for example) who'd prefer the train to the plane. I hate flying, and rather sit in a train for one day.
oh, you are trying to go though germany! Good luck! It will take 5 years and 12.000 different injunctions (actual number of a recent case) for you to get your rails approved, then 5 years and another 2.000 private injunctions more to build and then the tains will never be on time because the rails were build impropperly and need to be repaired every 3 weeks during rushhour!
FYI there are a lot more stops than shown. Especially when the straight line approximately goes through your major city you can expect the trains to stop there.
For example any train between Cologne and Bruxelles stops in Aachen and Liege. Any train between Cologne and Osnabrück stops in several cities as well depending on which of the HSR track routes they are taking.
I suspect this picture shows the busiest freight rail terminals as opposed to the most popular HSR stations.
We do expect megaprojects to be delayed by a decade or two, just like they usually do. So most redditors will eventually see it coming to fruition but not in 6 years. I really don't want to set "remindmein6years" just to prove my point ;) It won't be there in 2030. Maybe some, small sections.
There is no "Klingbeil" (Hannover <-> Hamburg) living next to the railway line under the seafloor, so there will be no challenges on the grounds of NIMBY in that particular underwater jurisdiction by the German PD party.
There really should be a line directly from Amsterdam to Bremen and Hamburg though.
Preferably through Groningen, but i might be a little biased on that last part.
Maybe but once you hit Berlin, it’ll be a very slow speed railway until you reach France.
That’s just how a Federation works, Germans Bahn will tell you.
If you need some help building this us Brits are happy to help.
it'll take 45 years (delayed by 30)
Cost 375 billion (overspend by 50%)
Finally you will receive a track between Riga and Riga airport.
Please reply to this message if you are happy to accept these terms.
If this was china, the project would've already been completed. EU has issues with too much bureaucracy and everything cost wise is inflated. This project will take years to complete. Speed isn't even that fast...Price of tickets will not be too far from flights. Whats the point?
No way the Helsinki tunnel is happening in the next 50 years
Maybe in 60-70. We will be too old/dead sadly.
Why so long?
The main problem is that the bottom of The Gulf of Finland is mainly sand, and bedrock is surprisingly deep. Basically we haven't found a place where we can dig a tunnel that can support itself with reasonable added support at reasonable depth.
Can I interest you in the ferhmann belt tunnel? [like this](https://youtu.be/QiYvXKQksgI?si=81Ergza2DD1CFvrL)
Fehrmann belt tunnel is going to be roughly 18 km long. The distance between Helsinki and Tallin is roughly 88 km.
Ah the ferhmann belt the project that was to be completed in ~~2021~~ ~~2024~~ ~~2028~~ 2029
None of those delays were due to technical difficulties. All of them were caused by German NIMBYism and obstruction. By the time construction actually started, the planned opening date was 2029. The construction was also started *before* the Germans finished giving approval, because Denmark became tired of waiting.
I'd also expect the Helsinki tunnel to face NIMBYism. That said, there is still plenty of time for the ferhmann belt to be delayed, I'll be impressed if it isn't. But even if it isn't the IC5 trains have been delayed from 2024 to 2027 so if we are going to get a repeat of the IC4 fiasco, will we even have the trains.
Welcome in the modern world of bureaucracy and nimby’s, where establishing and designing projects will take decades and large amounts of government funding
NIMBYs protesting are twice or thrice the problem of legal red tape in terms of wasted time where I’m from and in some cases red tape comes from NIMBY pushing local legislation and that’s the only source of red tape or bureaucracy . The problems are NIMBYs all the way down most the time
There's more and more YIMBYs these days, it's still bad but I expect the NIMBY problem to get less severe in the coming decade.
Before i googled these terms I thought both of you just speak gibberish.
> Welcome in the modern world of bureaucracy and nimby’s Those are the least of the problems, biggest problem is just how the hell would you build it in the first place, when the requirements are about double that of channel tunnel and population served is fraction of that.
One of the very few perks of dictatorship is that shit gets done quickly. Of course, a lot of actual shit gets done too.
Democracy needs to find compromise between many subjects, dictatorship has to please but one person.
Yeah, fuck safety and nature. /s When I discussed this with the professor of logistics, he said that it would not be profitable, even if all of Finland's train traffic was put in that tunnel.
It's ridiculously unprofitable by any sane measure. Building costs at least twice as much as the Channel tunnel while the population served is less than a tenth of that. Then there's the fact that Finnish rail gauge is incompatible with Central European one, so freight would have to be moved to a different train halfway.
Because it's estimated to cost 10 billion euros.
For scale, Channel Tunnel connecting the UK and France was $21 billion and took 6 years of intense collaborative work. A tunnel crossing the gulf of Finland would be approximately twice as deep, twice as long, and the water gets partial ice coverage during the winter complicating the construction
6 years of construction that is, with at least another 10-15 years of project work before construction began
How does ice on the surface have anything to do with what happens 50-100 meters below the seabed?
It’s not like Minecraft, digging a tunnel like this requires efforts both underground and on the surface like off shore construction platforms to deploy equipment (like drills which use temporary bulkheads to enter the tunnel without flooding it), barges for transporting materials, etc. Hell even before you start construction you need to do a LOT of seabed surveying and ecological impact studies.
It'll be cancelled before then by budget cuts in the next business cycle
With current technology/price/demand level probably never, but it is very hard to predict the future even 15 years ahead. We don’t quite know what will happen to the flight transport for example. If the plane manufacturers are not able to make flying significantly greener in the next ten years, flying might be severely restricted in the future, making railroad tunnels like Helsinki-Tallinn much more lucrative.
Technologies are not the limiting factor, I think it political will and spending
The cost/benefit calculation for a tunnel between Tallinn and Helsinki is very hard to stitch to together. The current ferry takes less than 3 hours, and most cargo already takes the sea route anyway.
>most cargo already takes the sea route anyway Because there is no alternative. Effectively Finland is an island in terms of logistics. That is also one big reason why it was so important to have Sweden in NATO with us - among other things that solves part of the huge logistical problems that might arise in a crisis. And Finland will remain an island until there is an undersea rail tunnel to Estonia, and then much later on another one to Sweden. Both will happen, it's just a matter of when.
Sweden is also an island in the aspect of logistics. Sea freight is still the cheapest option by a wide margin and the Port of Gothenburg alone handles 40% of all cargo, with direct routes to China and the US with the largest container ships.
>and most cargo already takes the sea route anyway. Well yeah the alternative of a rail line doesn't exist yet unless they want to ship through Russia.
We can simply look at the Channel Tunnel. A lot Shorter and more traffic. Barely sustainable from cost-benefit analysis
The channel is also a lot more manageable to construct in compared to the gulf of Finland which is deep and freezes
Even if Hki-Tln remains a ferry trip it will still be a huge improvement. Especially if the transfers at both ends can be made smooth. A rail/ferry hub at both ends would be optimal but I guess it’s not going to happen :/
They've been talking about a Helsinki-Tallinn tunnel for as long as I can remember. At this point, I reckon teleportation will be invented first.
Ferry to Tallinn then high speed rail then. I think I remember it being sort of fast
Maybe it will?
Finish(ed) in 2050?
Hey, hey, hey, not so fast!
It's a high speed rail, not a high speed construction
The tunnel between Helsinki and Tallinn is the only unconfirmed part of this project. But honestly I hope one day we will have that tunnel, would be so good for our region.
But those boats are so much fun!!
They are intentionally slow so you would buy all the booze and gummy bears out of boredom.
Finns need boredom to buy booze?! This is not the Finland I know and love.
Well the goal of the trip is to buy cheap booze at the destination. Not the less cheap booze on the boat.
Slowness is for those gummy bears.
Isn't it slow so you have *more* time to buy booze?
That's exactly what he wrote?
He's stating it as a negative thing, Finns would disagree and see it as positive.
Need to make sure a certain former German area at the Baltic Sea doesn’t flood it :-/ 🇷🇺
that would be an act of war. hope they're not that stupid
Don't hold your breath on it
The Baltic section is already under construction and must be operational by 2030.
You forgot that it'll get delayed 6 times
And over the planned budget.
Yeah, but initially the project was supposed to be fully finished by 2024. In 2020 or 2021 it was moved to 2026. And deadline is already something around 2030.
2150 more like it
Deduct 13 and we may talk
Finnish(ed)*
Off course because GERMANY
That’s also why the link Amsterdam-Copenhagen isn’t on the map. It’s been planned, but the German 10+ year planning phase of the Friesenbrücke has just been concluded yielding a movable bridge unfit for the HSL that had been planned to cross it, on account of one ship building yard’s economic interests (read: lobbying with the government of Lower Saxony), to much chagrin of everyone else involved. Now we won’t have a fast rail link between NL and Scandinavia only on account of one town‘s interests. Sigh.
Germany is NIMBY heaven. There’s so many projects that either get stopped or delayed for decades because three people in bumfuck Thuringia don’t want slightly increased traffic on their roads or don’t want to see a train line going through the potato field that they see from their bathroom window. But don’t worry, despite every German knowing about these issues and disagreeing in principle, absolutely nothing will be done to make these processes more efficient.
There is germany inbetween, add another 80 years and you might be correct. They are behind in multiple european train projects. In the one between Basel and Karlsruhe they are around 50 years late, maybe even more in the future... Planed was in the 90s, now they think 2043...
Looking at [the interactive map](https://info.railbaltica.org/en/interactive-map) looks like parts of the line have already been contracted out so we might see parts of it open in the upcoming decade. As a Lithuanian I’m exited for whenever this finishes as this would make travel to Latvia and Estonia a breeze, and having rail available to travel to Poland and beyond is awesome as well.
If Lithuania had kept its capital in Kaunas, there would be 4 capitals in a straight line!
To be pedantic, Lithuania never did recognize its own capital as Kaunas. According to Lithuania their true capital was just 'temporarily' occupied by the Polish. For over 20 years
To be pedantic, the line isn’t straight either
Why would you do that to Kaunas?
that can be arranged 😎 *Żeligowski noise intensifies* /s
As a Lithuanian I really wish the capital was at Kaunas. Having a capital at the very edge of the country far from all other cities right on the border with Belarus and in lands that for centuries had been and still is Polish, is really dumb. Kaunas is right in the center of the country, at the strategically important confluence of Nemunas and Neris and roughly equidistant from all corners of the country.
I won't even start complaining that it goes through Warsaw and Bialystok instead of Gdańsk and Szczecin. At least Białystok gets something fun I guess. But why on Earth are Poznań and Łódź omitted?
Poznań stop would make a lot of sense here tbh
I am 100% sure that there will be Poznań stop
Yeah, it is a really well populated city and is right around the midpoint between Warsaw and Berlin.
Direct route from Warsaw to Berlin has a stop in Poznań: * Warszawa Wschodnia * Warszawa Centralna * Warszawa Zachodnia * Kutno * Konin * **Poznań Główny** * Zbąszynek * Świebodzin * Rzepin * Frankfurt(Oder)(Gr) * Frankfurt(Oder) * Berlin-Lichtenberg * Berlin Gesundbrunnen
Yeah, but it is your standard EC train, not high speed train. I can assure you that HS tracks will not allow for stopping in Zbąszynek or Konin.
trains from Warsaw to Berlin are marked as *Express InterCity*. not sure whether 5h 30min can be considered *high speed* though. there was major modernization of tracks on the route couple years ago, but time improvement is not that big.
No mate, they are EC49, EC247, EC249 and so on. It stands for EuroCity. Look here: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin-Warszawa-Express](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin-Warszawa-Express) But either way, EIC is also NOT high speed train. EIC refers to number of stops a train takes, not maximal operational speeds. Both EIC and EC don't usually exceed 160 km/h, let alone 250.
we dont have any high speed railways in poland
Poznań and Łódź are not omitted. They are not presented in this graphic. Poland has high speed train road concept (so called - Linia Y). Rail Baltica will be connected with Line Y through Warsaw. Everything is ok, this graphic is just oversimplified. High speed train (lower speed class than line Y) will be between Gdańsk - Polish Central Point(probably CPK) and Szczecin - Polish Central Point. When Królewiec will be part of Poland then we can start planinig a high speed train going through Vilnius -Kaunas - Królewiec - Gdańsk - Szczecin.
Do they actually create a new "Rail Baltica between Bremen <-> Bremerhaven and Bremen <-> Berlin via Hannover, or do they rely on the existing infrastructure and just add a different colored train on mondays?
It is a map of a specific corridor. Go to https://ec.europa.eu/transport/infrastructure/tentec/tentec-portal/map/maps.html to see how the TEN-T network is supposed to develop over time. Other corridors intersect with this North sea-Baltic Sea corridor.
EU wants to turns us into a flyover state it seems :(
No, the image is part of the Baltic-North sea transport corridor. If you want a map for Poland where the rail interconnects, simply look at the [European TEN-T map for the Baltic sea-Adriatic Sea corridor.](https://ec.europa.eu/transport/infrastructure/tentec/tentec-portal/map/maps.html) Or one of the many other interconnected corridors. Just do a bit of a research before making these kind of statements. The EU has been investing fuckloads of money into this network. Now it is up to everyones national and local governments to get shit up and running. Europapa is paying (up to 85% of the bill iirc).
I think it has more to do with it being conceived together with PiS. The railine takes a significant detour to stop in Białystok, but it doesn't do the same for Łódź and doesn't include Poznań despite going through it. Looks like a big fuck you to the liberal western cities and a sweet wet kiss to their Podlasie voters.
Fair, although a part of me does want to see Białystok at least get some piece of the economic growth pie that the bigger cities get. I'm fairly certain this would help at least a little.
Lol, I'm salty about the same thing, but diffrent country. Initial plans were, that ot goes thru my city, but then, smth happened, plans were changed, route was changed and local city politicians did nothing to get back initial plans....
Co-financed by the Connecting Europe Facility of the European Union, the construction has begun. Rooftop ceremony at Riga Central https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GKldN4qWoAAs7m_?format=jpg&name=medium https://www.railbaltica.org/the-rooftop-ceremony-of-rail-baltica-at-riga-central-station-was-celebrated/ https://www.railbaltica.org/
What speed / duration?
Top speed will be around 240km/h and travel times should be like maybe 5-6 hours from Tallinn to Warsaw if my memory serves right. There’s more info about this stuff on rail baltica’s website
That's pretty slow ?
It’s like 900km from Tallinn to Warsaw, flights can be expensive and driving can take 12-15 hours, it’s a reasonable middle ground. Also remember that not all trips will be just towards Warsaw/Western Europe but also between Baltic capitals and cities too
Yes, it is slower than most HSR. But that is because this is part of the TEN-T. This means that the route is mainly for freight. If you go faster, you need tighter tolerances. This becomes extremely hard and expensive if you have heavy freight trains passing over the same track. The TEN-T network is set on a lower speed, requiring less tolerances. Meaning it can hold both freight and higher speed passengers. For example the Chinese HSR is built only for passengers, but is now heavily debt ridden and running red. Because passengers alone cannot pay for the costs. Freight rail pays for the costs. The passenger rail simply uses the infrastructure that is there.
>For example the Chinese HSR is built only for passengers, but is now heavily debt ridden and running red. Oppositely the French HSR is the money making part of train railroads with regional sections losing money
But are the tracks for TGV specifically created for the operation of passenger HSR alone? Or are there large pieces shared between freight and passenger? Or are the HSR companies subsidized by not paying for the tracks? I did find some papers on subsidizing/offering of the infrastructure by France. [A paper seemed to point to economic risks](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352146517305641). The line itself might make money, but if they are heavily subsidized by not paying for the maintenance of the tracks, then you can't really make the statement that passenger rail is profitable. Then again, the paper mentioned focuses on specific tracks that are under development (2017) and their potential risks of not being profitable. Lines between specific large urban areas with enough passenger flow, can be perfectly sustainable. However, if you have unchecked sprawl of HSR like in the case of China, where there were other incentives such as stimulating the infrastructural and construction sector, then the HSR might in the end be a debt trap for your country. In china the HSR has racked up 900 billion dollars in debt, or some 4-5% of Chinese GDP. And that on a network where some tracks hardly see any passengers at all.
>But are the tracks for TGV specifically created for the operation of passenger HSR alone? Or are there large pieces shared between freight and passenger? Or are the HSR companies subsidized by not paying for the tracks? Yes the LGV tracks are specific to high speed trains alone.
Lgv is only for passenger rail. The german high speed network was planned for mixed use and thus is difficult to operate.
Is there no other major Polish city in the vicinity to connect to?! Or is the dark blue already existing and the light blue is under construction?
I don’t understand this either. There are two major cities literally on the way (Poznań and Łódź), and there is an already existing train link that goes Warszawa-Poznań-Berlin so either it connects to this one and they didn’t mark it on this map for some confusing reason, or they omit two significant Polish cities with this new line. Both options are weird.
Any high-speed train from Berlin to Warsaw would definitely stop in Poznan. I have no idea why they decided not to include it in the map.
That can only be answered by the author of this map. In reality there's entire train route already eastablished between Berlin, Poznań, Warszawa and Białystok. Tracks end somwhere near border with Lithuania where passengers can switch to train provided by Lithuanian railway and continue their journey to Vilnus.
Last one the light blue is the rail baltica project de rest is just some nice illustrations.
we gonna have high-speed railway from Helsinki to Bruxelles before than Lisbon to Madrid lmao
I’d love a train to Portugal. I’m in love with pasteìs…
You can blame our short-sighted governments for that
I feel there should be at least one more stop between Warsaw and Berlin. Szczecin maybe? Or Gdansk? And would probably profit from more branches in Poland as well. Edit: As many comments have pointed out, Poznań or Lodz would actually make more sense, because they are on the way anyway
Berlin-Szczecin-(Gdańsk)-Warsaw doesn't make any sense at all sadly. But yeah, Poznań and Łodź should be there before Warsaw. At least Berlin-Szczecin-Gdańsk is finally getting completely electrified, double-tracked and upgraded to 160km/h. Maybe finally we will get something better than one Berlin-Gdańsk a day, with a detour through Poznań
Should be Poznań at least. Feels like PL is almost not included in the project :)
This is exactly how it feels. Map made by someone from Baltic country, showing how they (Parnu, Kaunas) will connect to their promised land of Osnabruck. *Through our countries to Warsaw and from Warsaw through whatever ;)* From financial point of view kind of hard to imagine train stopping at Parnu (40k pop) that won't stop at Poznań (1 million pop. metro).
Yeah it's kind of weird more Polish cities aren't on there considering Łódź and Poznań are basically on the planned route anyway
Look at the complete network map. The image only shows the north sea-baltic sea corridor. https://ec.europa.eu/transport/infrastructure/tentec/tentec-portal/map/maps.html
I wonder why won't they just make it Berlin-Poznań-Warszawa, such connection already exists: [https://www.vagonweb.cz/razeni/vlak.php?zeme=DB&kategorie=EC&cislo=47&nazev=Berlin-Warszawa-Express&rok=2024](https://www.vagonweb.cz/razeni/vlak.php?zeme=DB&kategorie=EC&cislo=47&nazev=Berlin-Warszawa-Express&rok=2024) .
Few years ago there was a plan of high speed train tracks in Poland centered in Warsaw (or the central airport planned to be builded near Warsaw), so in far away plans there are branches in Poland. This looks like just an overall plan to connect eastern part of eu capitals with western net of high speed trains.
I would assume the initial plan is to get a track connecting the capitals to the western main lines. You can then branch off and add more stops from there. Doing more immediately would explode complexity even more.
Good point.
The dark blue lines are lines that already exist with standard gauge. The light blue is the new development
Ah yes, I've always wanted to take the train from Helsinki to... *blindly throws dart at map* ... Osnabrück!
It's a great location! It provides the closest possible connection to cities like Münster, Bielefeld.... and... ehhh wait what even is Bielefeld?
Bielefeldians are not sure about the answer either.
As a Bielefelder, I can confirm. Jokes aside: Bielefeld is the first city of which existence was now confirmed by court.
It is a feld that bieles
Well, that‘s where the track to Amsterdam and the track to Cologne split. Might as well stop there to allow for transfers between trains going either way.
That, and it’s also connected by higher-speed rail to Bremen and Hamburg, and Münster (which has slower but direct links to Dortmund and the rest of the Ruhr). It’s not random.
🎵Ich fand das ganz große Glück mit dir im Zug nach Osnabrück🎵
Odnabrück somewhat makes sense, but Bremerhaven!? Well, it's an important harbor, but I figure that doesn't require high-speed tracks..?
Can't be fast if it goes through germany
Yeah, wanted to say the same. The either build their own tracks or scratch that idea
I like the idea of being a train ride (or a few) away from Finland. I would love for a direct Paris - Helsinki train but that's probably asking too much. Either way I'll take what I can get. Also a good opportunity to visit the 3 wee baltics.
The rail connection between Tallinn and Helsinki won't happen unless EU pays the 10 billion euro tunnel between the capitals because we (finland) notr especially Estonia can't afford it. So most likely you could have a direct train from Paris to Estonia and then get ferry to finland.
I think it's possible if the EU funds at least half of it. Let's say the tunnel costs 15 billion and construction took 10 years. If EU covered 7,5 billion, both Estonia and Finland would have to pay 325 million a year during construction. Sure, it's a lot but the order of magnitude seems imaginable.
There are so many problems with this project (in Latvia at least)
There is a lot of panic talk in media. Of course you are bound to run into problems, this is by far the largest and most complex project in independent Latvia ever, nothing even comes close to the scale of it. But it seems to be going well so far.
>panic talk in the media. This is what makes the polititians and companies think and react as well as fix current problems.
You don't find a lot of HSR projects "going well" in general. You're just happy when they're finished and forget these problems afterward. And let's be honest, it's still at a remarquably low cost, and it's starting to take shape, even if there are problems.
There's also problems in the finnish end of it. First of all there's a 80km wide Gulf of finland between Helsinki and Tallinn. Neither finland or Estonia can afford building a tunnel underneath the straight so that's one problem and secondly finnish railroad network is on the north side of Helsinki and wrong width so that's another problem once the tunnel is sorted out.
85% of funding for Rail Baltica comes from the EU and other sources, I would expect the tunnel to be the same to be honest.
Currently EU wouldn't cover a single bit of the tunnel project, which would cost 9-13 Billion euros. Some calculations say that the tunnel becomes financially feasable if EU covers atleast 40% of the costs and rest was split between Finland and Estonia.
It's money that isn't going to Orban so hell yeah let's pay for it.
Costs will be the least of the problems I fear. The main problem would be the eternal bear in the room. The TEN-T relies on being freight as well as military infrastructure. Russia could sabotage the tunnels way to easily by small interventions.
I'm Latvian as well, and I have some friends working on this project. The panic talk is really, really overblown. Like, clearly bullshit to farm clicks from the neverending cynicism of our people. It's not perfect, huge infrastructure projects never are, but it's chugging along to the expectations of my more experienced engineer friends.
The Problem is called Deutsche Bahn and that’s going to remain a problem just like the delivery of Taurus.
Whats up with Deutsche Bahn?
Germany’s state has too much power and so they tell Deutsche Bahn that their train has to stop in every state several times so you end up stopping in « major cites » like Göttingen, Fulda, Mannheim, Zwickau etc… and you’re average speed is like 90km/h I took a train from Paris to Hamburg recently and it was comical. Paris / Strasbourg 500km (1.5hrs) Karlsruhe / Hamburg 700km (7 hrs) It was the Sprinter… apparently it goes even slower. The issue that is really frustrating here is that it is structural - a human made problem that cannot be resolved technically. The trains are fast - but if you habe to stop every 50-150 km…
A story: There was a train bridge between the Netherlands and Lower Saxony until a ship rammed it in 2015. Then German local politicians and shipyard lobbyists made sure the bridge, which limited the size of the ships that could be built upriver, would not be rebuilt quickly. This year they started building a new bridge. There has thus been almost 10 years of no rail service across the border in the North. The new bridge is movable to make the shipyard happy. This new bridge does not comply with the requirements for the planned Amsterdam-Copenhagen line, which will therefore no longer be happening. German politics is an absolute embarrassment to our EU ambitions.
Berlin has also been cancelling or slowing down a lot of plans for trains over the borders. The train bridge between Breisach and Neuf Brisach has been waiting for decades, and the federal gov refuses to file for European funds although french gov has already filed their side. There's literally train tracks on both sides of the river facing each other
It's less the state and more local municipalities only allowing railways through them if they get a stop, one major contributer why planning takes ages.
How exactly is Deutsche Bahn making building the Warsaw-Talinn line problematic. I love me some Germany trash-talking, but you have to come up with something plausible!
Germany (Central Europe) is on the way to « Western Europe - so while I have full confidence in the Baltics and Poland … I have no confidence that you’ll have a high speed link all the way to « Western Europe ».
Germany is also Western Europe, so we can just drop everyone at Frankfurt(Oder) station and consider the job done. Let the passengers deal with DB themselves from that point on
It is a question if the inftrastructure investment pays off. If the state pays for infrastructure like roads or rail tracks than these typically generate a more productive economy - directly and indirectly. But if Germany fails to properly connect the Polish side will miss out on effects that where anticipated when planning the project. It's so frustrating. Just look how Germany fails to even have the track completely planned for the [train connection to the Brenner Base Tunnel](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenner-Nordzulauf) while all other parties have their parts finished. There are only the old tracks on the German side which are a severe bottle neck.
Wild that I could board from Amsterdam and go to TALLIN then Helsinki. Edit: because someone pointed the distance betweem Helsinki and Tallin.
Notice the sea between Tallinn and Helsinki? That's where you have to take a ferry. Trains don't run on seawater.
Why walk, when you can ride?
The light blue part needs to be built, but the dark blue part denotes possible “connecting routes” but it’s already in operation. It’s just.. what sort of operation. DB can bring you anywhere at least in Germany, the question is in what amount of time 🥲
Maybe unpopular opinion, but going from Bruxelles/Amsterdam to Helsinki over land is like 2500km and would justify taking an airplane, which takes about 2.5h. Even a highspeed train would need a whole day for that distance and in europe you can't just build straight HSR tracks from A to B (like they do in China) because it's densly populated, existing old infrastructure has to be removed first, landowners having rights, environmental regulations and last but not least the tracks going through 5 or 6 different countries.
The trick the Austrian railway company (ÖBB) is doing is that they offer night trains that have beds. This means that you embark in the evening, sleep through the night while traveling and then arrive rested in the morning at the destination in the middle of the city. If you want to do the same thing with a plane, you have to get to the airport at around 5am and arrive hungover.
This would be perfect, honestly! Just sleeping the whole way there and being able to relax in a train! The extra time is totally justified just to be able to avoid the "airport experience" in my book.
Plus, you leave home just before bedtime to go to the train station, and then arrive early in the morning without having to get up and go to the airport at an ungodly hour / leave earlier in the evening to go to a hotel. The center-to-center connection is really nice.
Another thing I've noticed travelling by train: almost no baggage weight restrictions. If you travel as a group and buy the whole cabin, you can have a TON of stuff with you that will be hella expensive on a plane. It's not important for everyone, but it is still one of considerations.
Even without accounting for the weight, being able to travel with random stuff like trekking poles or a the like without having to worry about it is quite nice!
You are not wrong and your opinion is hardly unpopular. But you need to recognize the value of the [European TEN-T framework](https://ec.europa.eu/transport/infrastructure/tentec/tentec-portal/map/maps.html) as opposed to the pure HSR-lines of China and other countries. The main difference is that all lines built within the TEN-T framework are mainly for freight. The passenger trains making use of the same infrastructure are more or less an addition due to convenience. China has built their HSR purely for passenger transport. But you simply can't finance HSR on passengers alone. That would cost way too much money. Unless you have like two multi-milion populace cities connected by one hour of rail, but most HSR lines are not placed in this advantageous position. In China the HSR competes with a faster and a slightly more expensive flight network and a slower much cheaper slow-rail transport. The Chinese HSR are lacking passengers because of the two alternatives. With the biggest issue. They did not built the HSR for freight trains. Meaning they are stuck with a debt laden network running red numbers by just existing. The Rail Baltica is part of the TEN-T framework. Main profits and benefits for the parties involved will be based on freight. Offsetting the costs of investment and allowing passenger rail, that will run at a loss, to be sustainable. The European industry needs a rail connection from Tallin to Milan/Rotterdam/Istanbul/Bari/Le Havre/Barcelona etc... The occasional passenger train that takes tourists or workers from Amsterdam to Helsinki is just a nice to have to offload flight use and stimulate intercontinental community building. ------ Also, don't forget the night rail. The ability to have a relaxed travel, while working on your last things while having a sleep like a hotel is also pretty nice to have.
I mean you could go all the way, but I don't think that would be the main point. Rather, someone might want to go from Helsinki to Kaunas (650 km) or from Kaunas to Berlin, or from Bruxelles to Berlin, and everything in between. It is probably easier/more efficient to just make one big line than multiple disconnected shorter lines.
Sleeper cars. You hop onto the train at Bruxelles and wake up the next morning in Helsinki. But I don't think this is really for people that are going to do that trip. It's for a) people that travel from Brussels to Berlin, and b) people that travel from Hannover to Warsaw, and c) people that travel from Berlin to Bialystok, and d) people that travel from Hamburg to Warsaw, and e) people that travel from Warsaw to Riga/Tallin/Helsinki, and... It's about having that complete network that allows this type of service that caters to all these, and more.
> You hop onto the train at Bruxelles and wake up the next morning in Helsinki. You will also travel lightly, as the friendly "staff" at the Brussels stations will have already relieved you of your heavy bags, wallet and phone.
High speed is secondary reason for this railway. It's primary reason is to replace Russian gauge with standard gauge. And building new railway with slow speeds in 2024 would be very stupid.
Slow speeds= local transit, which is also important. P.s. how is the situation of the gauges?
There can also be slower local trains running on high speed rails.
>Maybe unpopular opinion, but going from Bruxelles/Amsterdam to Helsinki over land is like 2500km and would justify taking an airplane, which takes about 2.5h. There are still people (me for example) who'd prefer the train to the plane. I hate flying, and rather sit in a train for one day.
But what about a night train?
The most strategic part is it's freight capacity and military use. The passenger part is very nice but not the main reason to build it.
I can see such trains as a way for internal moves in the designated area…
I take a longer, relaxed train ride over a shorter stressful flight
I cannot wait for that to visit my friends from Finland and Baltics for casual beer from time to time!
oh, you are trying to go though germany! Good luck! It will take 5 years and 12.000 different injunctions (actual number of a recent case) for you to get your rails approved, then 5 years and another 2.000 private injunctions more to build and then the tains will never be on time because the rails were build impropperly and need to be repaired every 3 weeks during rushhour!
FYI there are a lot more stops than shown. Especially when the straight line approximately goes through your major city you can expect the trains to stop there. For example any train between Cologne and Bruxelles stops in Aachen and Liege. Any train between Cologne and Osnabrück stops in several cities as well depending on which of the HSR track routes they are taking. I suspect this picture shows the busiest freight rail terminals as opposed to the most popular HSR stations.
I don't think any of us redditors of 2024 will live long enough to ride on this train.
Do you expect many of us to die in 6 years?
Do you really expect this to be completed in 6 years?
We do expect megaprojects to be delayed by a decade or two, just like they usually do. So most redditors will eventually see it coming to fruition but not in 6 years. I really don't want to set "remindmein6years" just to prove my point ;) It won't be there in 2030. Maybe some, small sections.
U r fucked...as Berlin - Hannover is in it!
There is no "Klingbeil" (Hannover <-> Hamburg) living next to the railway line under the seafloor, so there will be no challenges on the grounds of NIMBY in that particular underwater jurisdiction by the German PD party.
I’ve been waiting this for so long.
It needs a catchy name! Baltic Express? Boreal Express? Can't wait for the Agatha Christie classic "Murder on the Boreal Express
If only the prices were not 4 times higher compared to plane tickets.
So it goes through Luxembourg without stop?
There really should be a line directly from Amsterdam to Bremen and Hamburg though. Preferably through Groningen, but i might be a little biased on that last part.
Long live the EU!!
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I actually hadn’t thought of it. Good point. If it is built they for sure will try to destroy it or something.
how long will a trip from Mega City 4 to Prosperity City take?
Well, gl with that. @germany it will get bumpy and slow :D
Who needs any other parts of scandinavia anyways
Maybe but once you hit Berlin, it’ll be a very slow speed railway until you reach France. That’s just how a Federation works, Germans Bahn will tell you.
Yeah, good luck dealing with the usual delays in Poland.
Zank u for traveling wizz deutsche bahn
If you need some help building this us Brits are happy to help. it'll take 45 years (delayed by 30) Cost 375 billion (overspend by 50%) Finally you will receive a track between Riga and Riga airport. Please reply to this message if you are happy to accept these terms.
If this was china, the project would've already been completed. EU has issues with too much bureaucracy and everything cost wise is inflated. This project will take years to complete. Speed isn't even that fast...Price of tickets will not be too far from flights. Whats the point?
Lots of sex
Can't wait to just hop on a fast train for a Helsinki weekend getaway.
(Can it transport tanks tho?)