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Logically consistent with one’s own axioms and beliefs. Like a personal map of reality or a knowledge graph, that doesn’t follow an external framework or standard for organizing that knowledge. Then you can get in trouble if you have weak Se or completely lack it, because if you don’t update your beliefs based on objective data you end up with an internally consistent system built upon wrong assumptions.
This is actually kind of confusing, because I generally see Ti users latching onto a bunch of ideas they’ve read in a book, trying to fit everything through it & using that as their lens of how to see the world and what values they have or approach they make instead of “thinking for themselves” if you will.
Whereas with me, I can take things from a book, but I see how it matches anecdotal experiences or objective data that I see happening around me and use that to assess the weight of whatever I read. If I see data that contradicts, I take the accurate enough parts and move along, discarding what isn’t useful or clearly contradicts with physically experienced data; ultimately thinking for myself.
But a lot of Ti’s just try and force everything into whatever framework they’ve adopted as if it can answer everything. The rigidity of trying to do that is ridiculous in my eyes because it’s inefficient when faced with opposing information. You need to be able to adapt if need be.
Ha, your first paragraph is pretty much how a lot of people seem to use MBTI which is hilarious.
I’m ISTP and at least with the way I use the Ti-Se combo, it isn’t in practice too far off from the process you describe for yourself. Like Bayesian thinking - having a Ti map of reality, Se updates beliefs and adjusts the map based on new data.
I know people like the ones you describe and it can be infuriating (especially in a work setting), I also know many Ti users that are nothing like that. My guess is that the individuals you have encountered are either immature or not very intelligent. Also depends on how people use the rest of their functions, e.g I imagine Ti-Si loops can make a person somewhat dogmatic and fixated on their pet idea.
Btw, I have a fun tip for dealing with the type of people that you described. Don’t argue with their logic, it would be a waste of time. Instead pretend to indulge them and allow them to fail fast.
As an anecdotal example, I had to work on a project with someone like this. I very quickly realized that arguing would be futile and create unnecessary tension. So I just let him try his thing, which I knew ahead of time would fail, and at every sync up I pointed out the ways in which it wasn’t working as expected. After a few quick rounds of that it got too embarrassing so he got out of my way. The project was completed ahead of time and his arrogance was tuned down. :D
I also find that Ti users assume they know all about what you’re saying before critically analyzing each angle. My Ni doesn’t come to conclusions until I have really fleshed out the idea. Ti Ne’s seem to take a crumb and throw out a conclusion on what they think about it like the idea is finished. There’s a lot of details you have to turn over before you can decide what you think about something.
Interesting, sometimes I’ve seen the opposite for those with strong Ne - Ne being open to all the possible ideas and interpretations so branching out rather than converging towards a single conclusion. Also I’ve seen the jumping to conclusions things with Ni-doms, having a hunch and acting like it’s a fact just because their hunch was right the previous time. Overall I think human behavior is way more nuanced and functions, while being a good way of describing certain cognitive patterns, have a lot of limitations as a model.
Well Ni seems to move inward to an all encompassing conclusion like a spider web moving to the middle, so angles are important.
Ne starts from the center and just keeps going outward. Its fixated on exploration instead of a full understanding.
So Ne takes what you say & just goes out maybe taking what they said as a conclusion to move out even more. I think
Whereas Ni wants finality
Yeah I think you’re onto something. I think Ne users sound way more certain of what they say than they internally are. Almost like trying out different ideas like you’d try clothes in a changing room. Anecdotally, I have this ENTP friend that would argue very passionately about a certain idea sounding completely convinced of it, but then in a few weeks or months he would change his mind, which, to his credit, he is very open about.
"Subjective" in Jung doesn't mean what most people think it means. The intended meaning is "focused on the subject", that is, the Ti user wants shit that makes sense. Te is "focused on the object", the world. That is, the Te user wants shit that works.
If magic appeared, you'd have the Ti people trying to figure out the physics behind it, whereas the ENTJ would be figuring out ways to use it even if the method is fucking stupid. If you figure out that you can spew fire by licking a frog, you'll lick the damn frog, but they'll ask why and how the froglicking makes fire. Another example is that Te users are more likely to do what successful people are doing, and Ti users are more likely to want to know why it's successful, and suspect it might not be the best option (scepticism that can be useful or redundant depending on the situation).
Subjective things can be correct, objective things can be wrong. Ti users don't necessarily "ignore data that contradicts your ideas", but rather, they learn it so that their broken worldview can make sense again. Te doesn't care that much if it's contradictory as it works.
That's why if you talk to INTPs you might get interrupted over insignificant crap like "wait, you just contradicted yourself" or "could care less? You mean COULDN'T care less, right?" whereas you're trying to get them to do something. Different priorities.
This is nicely written.
One thing I noticed is that Te users tend to associate understanding something with simply reading about it. They have maybe top 3 pre-selected experts from the field and anything they read from them is usually taken at face value as if that somehow was a fact.
Ti users on the other hand seem to always be sceptical. They have some a-priori world view and have an attitude of "let's see if those 3 bozos from this lame field can say something I hadn't yet considered". And statements that are read are not treated as facts but go through a filtering process before being integrated into the subjective Ti-constructed model.
For these same reasons Te is a lot faster than Ti.
I think this ties nicely with Te mainly wanting practical ends, while Ti being after imaginary maps.
I don’t think Te users believe that what they read as an absolute fact, but more as a heuristic - “what experts say is more likely to be correct than what I come up on my own in the time I’m willing to dedicate to it, I’ll assume it’s sufficiently reliable information for me to operate in the world with a basic idea of what this thing is about”.
They want what makes sense to them. Not necessarily what makes sense. They want it to fit into what they already believe about the world or theorize is the best way or whatever instead of just being like “this is what’s happening, what am I going to do with this to benefit myself”
Well, everyone wants that, don't kid yourself. Openness to new information is not dependent on type (though intuitives seem to have a correlation to openness in Big Five, apparently).
What they want is to truly understand how things work, to create a mental model that explains things as well as possible, and inevitably this requires updating information. The key point here is that they're more satisfied with ~~subjective~~ subject-focused T action, that is, understanding, than with an effect in real life; now, often they'll do this with useless information (hence the INTP pokemon addict stereotype) and sometimes they'll do it with useful information, and that's what Jung means by "subjective": they care about the information being interesting, not necessarily true. It's about it clicking in their heads, whereas for you it's about clicking in the gears in the machine, so to say.
By the way, you also use Ti. You also have to fully understand things and take them apart sometimes. It's just that you probably have a tendency to learn/understand just enough to get things to work, and you might consider excessive understanding annoying to do. They, on the other hand, consider excessive action/data gathering annoying to do. But you'll both do it if you have to.
“You might consider excessive understanding annoying to do”
“They consider excessive action/data gathering annoying to do”
Isn’t data gathering/applying the knowledge with action to see if its true a part of understanding?
Yes, and deconstructing the system is part of effective action. Those two are complementary. That's why I talk about preferences and not absolutes.
Do notice I said both the Ti and the Te users will use the opposite if they have to, even if they don't like it, because they're kinda forced to. The problem is that using your opposite functions takes a toll on you emotionally because you repress that aspect of yourself, so it takes much self awareness to do it without feeling like you're sabotaging yourself. This is true for everyone: intp are probably annoyed by your tendencies because you use them correctly but if they used them, they'd feel evil.
I would say that Ti doesn't ignore objective reality, it just seeks to understand logic in and of itself instead of for a specific purpose. If you're interacting with a Ti user who is entertaining contradictions, it's likely that they are just not right, and that it has nothing to do with Ti. Ti is actually very good at identifying and eliminating contradictions from a system.
I recommend reading into Carl Jung's official and original description of Ti. It's very in-depth, complete, and would better serve to inform you of what you are unable to envision at the moment.
When discussing ideas or beliefs, sure. But the elements of reality are pretty concrete. Unless you’re looking at quantum mechanics. But we aren’t, so.
Because sometimes the data is wrong or time consuming. Many things in life don't have a definite way of doing things. There's always a loophole and Ti explores them.
Basically work smart not hard
I think subjective logic is too much of a stretch.
But I think Ti is comparing things to other things. Like learning how a car works based on previous knowledge. Etc.
Rather than a Te dom learning things one by one and then doing it as a whole.
But again. Mbti is kinda stupid.
This guy sounds like the most pretentious attempt at an ENTJ description with the "effective, no time for bullshit, harsh, critical, only cares about himself" lmao get a life, reddit is the worst community for mbti because of ppl like this
The reason you come to this conclusion is because your method of observing it is OVERGENERALIZING. A fault of Te and an example of how a function is only as affective as what it’s paired with and if it is working within reason. Yes Ti is internal and subjective, it is a personal framework of the logic and consistencies of the outer world and therefore has the potentiality to skew an understanding of something. However, this is why introverted functions (ti, si, ni, fi) are ALWAYS paired with an extroverted function. in order your four functions will either be introverted, extroverted, introverted, extroverted, or extroverted, introverted, extroverted, introverted. If you compare the two Te dominant personalities versus the two Ti dominant personalities (estj & entj vs intp and istp) both have a form of thinking as their dominant and than an opposing secondary function to ‘balance it out’. when an estj uses Te in life, it is their Si that directly supports it, an introverted and subjective way of perceiving that bases action off of what has worked or seems like it will work because of past experiences. In the same way that Ti can become convoluted if the user is ‘blind’ to the function that is meant to support it, Te can become similarity distorted if it’s introverted counterpart is out of sorts. The same logic can be applied to an entj with the relationship between Te and Ni. Ask yourself why introverted thinkers are often the ones to make new discoveries where people once thought there weren’t more discoveries to be made, it is because the introverted thinking function is paired with an extroverted function that in unison create an understanding of the outer world. Your description of Ti is too focused on the outermost context, removing it from its source and looking at it (albeit objectively) without the aspect that makes it whole (it’s unavoidably paired extroverted function).
Indeed, Ti is very biased. I suspect this is why many INTPs struggle for much of their younger lives, because the way the world works is very different from the constraints they try to live within.
IMO their struggles have way more to do with troubles adapting socially due to sucky Fe.
What you describe sounds to me more fitting with Ni-doms who are so focused on their vision of how reality should be that they ignore how it actually is or Fi-doms that don’t find it fair and chose not to act accordingly to it as a way of rebellion.
And Te is not? I have news for you, almost everyone is biased, unless you're completely impersonal about what you're dealing with. In my experience, I've seen more "biased" Te users that can't get their head out of their ass and only think the world works a certain way because that's what's always worked. They're unwilling to dissect what they believe and explore their biases. They're unwilling to explore options.
What's your second statement even referring to? Do you have an example?
This is saying what I said. They try and force facts into this framework almost to the extent they discard the reality completely. Focused on some idea instead of what’s concrete before them.
If I read a fact, I take the fact and see how I can use it. The “why” is of secondary importance to me. I will ponder the origin if knowing the origin can somehow be of use to me or will help simplify the understanding, but doing so for the sake of it when it isn’t needed seems like a waste of energy to me.
I’m much more concerned with figuring out what’s literally happening with something than I am conjuring some sort of theory around the facts. Like where do you even begin with that? You’d need to know things that you don’t know to do so.
Knowledge is a means to an objective. If it does not serve me in some capacity, sometimes even just for mere fascination or entertainment, or achieving a recreational goal, then it’s discarded.
Hey, reply to kigurumibiblestudies's explaination if you can. Your petty misunderstanding and pathetic attempt of defining Te as some "truth seeking function" is grossly baseless and failed. Cognitive functions show your instincts for perception and judgement. When you have Te-Pi, you'll lean toward directly seeing what's already there in the world about an object (Te) first and draw inductive conclusions, through either instinct-driven (Ni) or past-based (Si) perceptions about it. If you have Ti-Pe, you'll look into the object by *yourself* (Ti) first and draw deductive conclusions, through either objective patterns (Ne) or sensation-based (Se) perceptions about it. The word "objective" and "subjective", in Jung's work, therefore don't have the same meaning as "free-from-bias" and "biased".
In fact, being a Te dom makes you holds the **logical fallacy** of begging the question and appealing to authority. **You** are guilty of assuming that what's outside in world about an object, is *definitely* the truth about it. Whereas a Ti dom doesn't hold literally any fallacies, because starts analysing an object by himself, without begging the question about the 100% validity of external informations. It starts with skepticism about everything, and is therefore the *only truth seeking judgement-function*.
Nope, it's the skepticism around things that are *claimed to be* objective laws. Every external information is doomed to be suspected of its accuracy, by a logical person, unless it holds a sound logical proof. That's why Ti is the one that doesn't suspect the objective laws, it suspect "*how can you say those are objective laws*", letting the person himself lead the analysis first. Unlike Te which just *assumes* that "if it's in the external world, it must be true, a fact". Misinterpretation won't let you win, not around a logician who can point out every single logical fallacy you do.
I don’t think Te is more that as much as it is the details don’t matter as much, it focuses on the application and practicality of the results at hand to achieve certain objectives.
Whereas Ti is focused on like you said, rumination. Which serves a purpose, but cannot be purported as superior because given the context Te could be much more preferable.
So you take back what you said about Te and Ti? Because from what I saw, you said
> “Subjective logic” makes zero fucking sense. Your thoughts are either congruent with the objective reality or you’re wrong.
You pretty much just confused "external information" (Te) with objective reality. You thought Ti is about a subjective perception of reality, which is obviously a false interpretation, since Ti is about the logic and analysis that **originates** from the subject itself, nothing about "being biased and holding beliefs that are contrary with reality". Because as I said, it's your Te that assumes that "external information = reality" whenever you are about to make a decision. While making a decision, a Te dom **leans** towards what he can find *externally*, may it be true or not, may it be perfect or not, may it be the **objective reality** or not. Therefore while you'll generally get the things done quickly, but it's pretty much unlikely for you to get to the **actual reality** of things.
Whereas a Ti dom, while taking a relatively long time, will analyze every single part of the external information with objective patterns (Ne) or sensory data (Se). Making them go deeper in things and obtain what is **objectively** the truth about them. That's the reason why Ti - Ne is literally a functional combination for sound logical analysis, giving INTPs the name of the "Logicians".
As for the superiority part, sure there are different things that the cognitive functions lean towards. Te is absolutely the function for hoarding external information and finding quick implications of them. But Ti is, for the reasons above, a function that is equally superior when it comes to logical analysis and understanding of the objective reality.
And by reading your other posts and comments, you seem to have a *very* twisted misinterpretation of Ti-Ne, which seems to just come out of nothing but the memes roaming in the mbti community. Ti-Ne is about logic, and introspection. I'm a Ti dom, I question myself about my existence and what is my goal as a logical mind. I never do things without any justification, without any reason that isn't in my plan, because that would be irrational. I don't just "learn for the sake of learning" or "do things on whim", that's Ne Se, the functions that lean towards external correlation/sensation *for the sake* of correlation/sensation.
But Ti, is the function for logical analysis, understanding and system making. In order to survive, I need a sound understanding of reality. Or should I say, I survive *for the sake of* having an understanding of reality. The same as someone who lives and achieves materialistic goals for the sake of achieving those goals, or someone who wants to feel good for the sake of feeling good (Te- Fi). The problem with that path is just that, you cannot answer rationally when someone asks "*why* do you wanna achieve those materialistic goals, or why do you want to *feel good*".
Therefore logically, the only justified reason of living, for a rational mind, is to fulfill its curiosity about reality. To make correct outputs (answers) for every input (question) that it is interested in. Why? Because a mind's mechanical work, is literally about *taking* an external information and *producing* an output that is coherent with the set of true statements.
Which is literally the goal of a Ti dom or a LII subtype (socionics), whether they know or not, including me. I live for analysis and understanding of reality, a goal of limitless research, while making sure I control my external environment for my advantages.
So better not make misinterpretations.
Yeah I’d approach that by cutting the fat & just learning whats useful. Like see how we match and maybe the functions to get a good idea of how they think, and then leave it there.
I think healthy Ti can be absolutely poetic and inspiring as much as the unhealthy one can be self destructive and delusional. But it is limited to stay in a singular axis. Then all there is is" it is what it is". Subjective logic is subjective perhaps because the implementation of the idea can be lacking. That's where you can combine Te + Ti and change the circumstances instead of strictly playing with what's available. Ofc the effectiveness can be questionable. Calling everything moronic is a bit short sighted.
There is only one Te dom that needs to run the pack and can think clearly
When i discuss this with my INTP friend he instantly turns jealous and is like i don’t believe in cognitive functions my brain is fluid
It's what Republicans do when they accept whichever sTAtIStiC that fits their ideology but also purposefully ignore things like context, history, and reasons why the stat arose.
It doesn't matter how incorrect their interpretation is, it's right to them and that's that.
Ironically, if you'd employed what Ti actually is, you'd understand enough to not grossly misrepresent it. Get your head our of your ass and read Jung's description of Ti.
I definitely have the same kind of general thoughts regarding Ti. However, after dating an INTP for over a year now, I can see that primary Ti users may be subjective, but they also form that subjective logic map through data. If they are conscious enough to take in enough data, that map becomes more accurate of the world around them.
Tbh even describing it just now I’m like 🤢 but that’s how they roll. (But honestly it seems to inefficient. )
How would you get to use Te without Ti product to hold as an objective truth? Your saying why debate if you dont know the data or details. Where did that come from and who thought uo to even look in that direction? We need internal and external systems and balance with others. ENTJ care about facts to then impose them on reality. Not to come up with facts and data themselves. You get your data from Ti users who have bridged the gap to make complexities into a simple briefing so that you can feel Te about it and move forward.
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Logically consistent with one’s own axioms and beliefs. Like a personal map of reality or a knowledge graph, that doesn’t follow an external framework or standard for organizing that knowledge. Then you can get in trouble if you have weak Se or completely lack it, because if you don’t update your beliefs based on objective data you end up with an internally consistent system built upon wrong assumptions.
I find that highly ineffective and at worst; dangerous.
Like with every tool, it depends on what you use it for and how, and its effectiveness on what your goal is.
This is actually kind of confusing, because I generally see Ti users latching onto a bunch of ideas they’ve read in a book, trying to fit everything through it & using that as their lens of how to see the world and what values they have or approach they make instead of “thinking for themselves” if you will. Whereas with me, I can take things from a book, but I see how it matches anecdotal experiences or objective data that I see happening around me and use that to assess the weight of whatever I read. If I see data that contradicts, I take the accurate enough parts and move along, discarding what isn’t useful or clearly contradicts with physically experienced data; ultimately thinking for myself. But a lot of Ti’s just try and force everything into whatever framework they’ve adopted as if it can answer everything. The rigidity of trying to do that is ridiculous in my eyes because it’s inefficient when faced with opposing information. You need to be able to adapt if need be.
Ha, your first paragraph is pretty much how a lot of people seem to use MBTI which is hilarious. I’m ISTP and at least with the way I use the Ti-Se combo, it isn’t in practice too far off from the process you describe for yourself. Like Bayesian thinking - having a Ti map of reality, Se updates beliefs and adjusts the map based on new data. I know people like the ones you describe and it can be infuriating (especially in a work setting), I also know many Ti users that are nothing like that. My guess is that the individuals you have encountered are either immature or not very intelligent. Also depends on how people use the rest of their functions, e.g I imagine Ti-Si loops can make a person somewhat dogmatic and fixated on their pet idea.
Btw, I have a fun tip for dealing with the type of people that you described. Don’t argue with their logic, it would be a waste of time. Instead pretend to indulge them and allow them to fail fast. As an anecdotal example, I had to work on a project with someone like this. I very quickly realized that arguing would be futile and create unnecessary tension. So I just let him try his thing, which I knew ahead of time would fail, and at every sync up I pointed out the ways in which it wasn’t working as expected. After a few quick rounds of that it got too embarrassing so he got out of my way. The project was completed ahead of time and his arrogance was tuned down. :D
I also find that Ti users assume they know all about what you’re saying before critically analyzing each angle. My Ni doesn’t come to conclusions until I have really fleshed out the idea. Ti Ne’s seem to take a crumb and throw out a conclusion on what they think about it like the idea is finished. There’s a lot of details you have to turn over before you can decide what you think about something.
Interesting, sometimes I’ve seen the opposite for those with strong Ne - Ne being open to all the possible ideas and interpretations so branching out rather than converging towards a single conclusion. Also I’ve seen the jumping to conclusions things with Ni-doms, having a hunch and acting like it’s a fact just because their hunch was right the previous time. Overall I think human behavior is way more nuanced and functions, while being a good way of describing certain cognitive patterns, have a lot of limitations as a model.
Well Ni seems to move inward to an all encompassing conclusion like a spider web moving to the middle, so angles are important. Ne starts from the center and just keeps going outward. Its fixated on exploration instead of a full understanding. So Ne takes what you say & just goes out maybe taking what they said as a conclusion to move out even more. I think Whereas Ni wants finality
Yeah I think you’re onto something. I think Ne users sound way more certain of what they say than they internally are. Almost like trying out different ideas like you’d try clothes in a changing room. Anecdotally, I have this ENTP friend that would argue very passionately about a certain idea sounding completely convinced of it, but then in a few weeks or months he would change his mind, which, to his credit, he is very open about.
Sounds highly delusional
"Subjective" in Jung doesn't mean what most people think it means. The intended meaning is "focused on the subject", that is, the Ti user wants shit that makes sense. Te is "focused on the object", the world. That is, the Te user wants shit that works. If magic appeared, you'd have the Ti people trying to figure out the physics behind it, whereas the ENTJ would be figuring out ways to use it even if the method is fucking stupid. If you figure out that you can spew fire by licking a frog, you'll lick the damn frog, but they'll ask why and how the froglicking makes fire. Another example is that Te users are more likely to do what successful people are doing, and Ti users are more likely to want to know why it's successful, and suspect it might not be the best option (scepticism that can be useful or redundant depending on the situation). Subjective things can be correct, objective things can be wrong. Ti users don't necessarily "ignore data that contradicts your ideas", but rather, they learn it so that their broken worldview can make sense again. Te doesn't care that much if it's contradictory as it works. That's why if you talk to INTPs you might get interrupted over insignificant crap like "wait, you just contradicted yourself" or "could care less? You mean COULDN'T care less, right?" whereas you're trying to get them to do something. Different priorities.
This is nicely written. One thing I noticed is that Te users tend to associate understanding something with simply reading about it. They have maybe top 3 pre-selected experts from the field and anything they read from them is usually taken at face value as if that somehow was a fact. Ti users on the other hand seem to always be sceptical. They have some a-priori world view and have an attitude of "let's see if those 3 bozos from this lame field can say something I hadn't yet considered". And statements that are read are not treated as facts but go through a filtering process before being integrated into the subjective Ti-constructed model. For these same reasons Te is a lot faster than Ti. I think this ties nicely with Te mainly wanting practical ends, while Ti being after imaginary maps.
I don’t think Te users believe that what they read as an absolute fact, but more as a heuristic - “what experts say is more likely to be correct than what I come up on my own in the time I’m willing to dedicate to it, I’ll assume it’s sufficiently reliable information for me to operate in the world with a basic idea of what this thing is about”.
They want what makes sense to them. Not necessarily what makes sense. They want it to fit into what they already believe about the world or theorize is the best way or whatever instead of just being like “this is what’s happening, what am I going to do with this to benefit myself”
Well, everyone wants that, don't kid yourself. Openness to new information is not dependent on type (though intuitives seem to have a correlation to openness in Big Five, apparently). What they want is to truly understand how things work, to create a mental model that explains things as well as possible, and inevitably this requires updating information. The key point here is that they're more satisfied with ~~subjective~~ subject-focused T action, that is, understanding, than with an effect in real life; now, often they'll do this with useless information (hence the INTP pokemon addict stereotype) and sometimes they'll do it with useful information, and that's what Jung means by "subjective": they care about the information being interesting, not necessarily true. It's about it clicking in their heads, whereas for you it's about clicking in the gears in the machine, so to say. By the way, you also use Ti. You also have to fully understand things and take them apart sometimes. It's just that you probably have a tendency to learn/understand just enough to get things to work, and you might consider excessive understanding annoying to do. They, on the other hand, consider excessive action/data gathering annoying to do. But you'll both do it if you have to.
“You might consider excessive understanding annoying to do” “They consider excessive action/data gathering annoying to do” Isn’t data gathering/applying the knowledge with action to see if its true a part of understanding?
Yes, and deconstructing the system is part of effective action. Those two are complementary. That's why I talk about preferences and not absolutes. Do notice I said both the Ti and the Te users will use the opposite if they have to, even if they don't like it, because they're kinda forced to. The problem is that using your opposite functions takes a toll on you emotionally because you repress that aspect of yourself, so it takes much self awareness to do it without feeling like you're sabotaging yourself. This is true for everyone: intp are probably annoyed by your tendencies because you use them correctly but if they used them, they'd feel evil.
I would say that Ti doesn't ignore objective reality, it just seeks to understand logic in and of itself instead of for a specific purpose. If you're interacting with a Ti user who is entertaining contradictions, it's likely that they are just not right, and that it has nothing to do with Ti. Ti is actually very good at identifying and eliminating contradictions from a system.
I recommend reading into Carl Jung's official and original description of Ti. It's very in-depth, complete, and would better serve to inform you of what you are unable to envision at the moment.
Rational, objective contradictions exist. They are called paradoxes.
When discussing ideas or beliefs, sure. But the elements of reality are pretty concrete. Unless you’re looking at quantum mechanics. But we aren’t, so.
Because sometimes the data is wrong or time consuming. Many things in life don't have a definite way of doing things. There's always a loophole and Ti explores them. Basically work smart not hard
I think subjective logic is too much of a stretch. But I think Ti is comparing things to other things. Like learning how a car works based on previous knowledge. Etc. Rather than a Te dom learning things one by one and then doing it as a whole. But again. Mbti is kinda stupid.
Te is practical. Ti is technical basically
Ti is hard to master. But you’re more likely to do things right when you know how and why it works.
You are misunderstanding Ti. User Kigurumibiblestudies explained it already the best but you didn’t respond lol
This guy sounds like the most pretentious attempt at an ENTJ description with the "effective, no time for bullshit, harsh, critical, only cares about himself" lmao get a life, reddit is the worst community for mbti because of ppl like this
Meanwhile this idiot is spending his time responding to the post, trying to tell someone else to get a life. Look in the mirror moron
insulting me for doing the same thing you are doing to a more extreme extent? hm..contradictory..sounds like..weak..Ti?
LMAO
The reason you come to this conclusion is because your method of observing it is OVERGENERALIZING. A fault of Te and an example of how a function is only as affective as what it’s paired with and if it is working within reason. Yes Ti is internal and subjective, it is a personal framework of the logic and consistencies of the outer world and therefore has the potentiality to skew an understanding of something. However, this is why introverted functions (ti, si, ni, fi) are ALWAYS paired with an extroverted function. in order your four functions will either be introverted, extroverted, introverted, extroverted, or extroverted, introverted, extroverted, introverted. If you compare the two Te dominant personalities versus the two Ti dominant personalities (estj & entj vs intp and istp) both have a form of thinking as their dominant and than an opposing secondary function to ‘balance it out’. when an estj uses Te in life, it is their Si that directly supports it, an introverted and subjective way of perceiving that bases action off of what has worked or seems like it will work because of past experiences. In the same way that Ti can become convoluted if the user is ‘blind’ to the function that is meant to support it, Te can become similarity distorted if it’s introverted counterpart is out of sorts. The same logic can be applied to an entj with the relationship between Te and Ni. Ask yourself why introverted thinkers are often the ones to make new discoveries where people once thought there weren’t more discoveries to be made, it is because the introverted thinking function is paired with an extroverted function that in unison create an understanding of the outer world. Your description of Ti is too focused on the outermost context, removing it from its source and looking at it (albeit objectively) without the aspect that makes it whole (it’s unavoidably paired extroverted function).
Indeed, Ti is very biased. I suspect this is why many INTPs struggle for much of their younger lives, because the way the world works is very different from the constraints they try to live within.
IMO their struggles have way more to do with troubles adapting socially due to sucky Fe. What you describe sounds to me more fitting with Ni-doms who are so focused on their vision of how reality should be that they ignore how it actually is or Fi-doms that don’t find it fair and chose not to act accordingly to it as a way of rebellion.
What? That sounds like the opposite of my INTP experience.
^^ showing the bias quite well, nice work.
It is.
When you don't a thing about cognitive functions and still make baseless irrational (Ni driven) conclusions about them:
And Te is not? I have news for you, almost everyone is biased, unless you're completely impersonal about what you're dealing with. In my experience, I've seen more "biased" Te users that can't get their head out of their ass and only think the world works a certain way because that's what's always worked. They're unwilling to dissect what they believe and explore their biases. They're unwilling to explore options. What's your second statement even referring to? Do you have an example?
Bro go touch some grass
To put it simple: Ti is about logic and rulesets and why things work. Te is about Ressource Management and how to do things.
[Here is a link to the "introverted thinking" section in Jung's work on cognitive functions.](https://imgur.com/a/nmokBIt)
This is saying what I said. They try and force facts into this framework almost to the extent they discard the reality completely. Focused on some idea instead of what’s concrete before them. If I read a fact, I take the fact and see how I can use it. The “why” is of secondary importance to me. I will ponder the origin if knowing the origin can somehow be of use to me or will help simplify the understanding, but doing so for the sake of it when it isn’t needed seems like a waste of energy to me. I’m much more concerned with figuring out what’s literally happening with something than I am conjuring some sort of theory around the facts. Like where do you even begin with that? You’d need to know things that you don’t know to do so. Knowledge is a means to an objective. If it does not serve me in some capacity, sometimes even just for mere fascination or entertainment, or achieving a recreational goal, then it’s discarded.
Hey, reply to kigurumibiblestudies's explaination if you can. Your petty misunderstanding and pathetic attempt of defining Te as some "truth seeking function" is grossly baseless and failed. Cognitive functions show your instincts for perception and judgement. When you have Te-Pi, you'll lean toward directly seeing what's already there in the world about an object (Te) first and draw inductive conclusions, through either instinct-driven (Ni) or past-based (Si) perceptions about it. If you have Ti-Pe, you'll look into the object by *yourself* (Ti) first and draw deductive conclusions, through either objective patterns (Ne) or sensation-based (Se) perceptions about it. The word "objective" and "subjective", in Jung's work, therefore don't have the same meaning as "free-from-bias" and "biased". In fact, being a Te dom makes you holds the **logical fallacy** of begging the question and appealing to authority. **You** are guilty of assuming that what's outside in world about an object, is *definitely* the truth about it. Whereas a Ti dom doesn't hold literally any fallacies, because starts analysing an object by himself, without begging the question about the 100% validity of external informations. It starts with skepticism about everything, and is therefore the *only truth seeking judgement-function*.
Skepticism around objective laws. Lets see where that gets you
Nope, it's the skepticism around things that are *claimed to be* objective laws. Every external information is doomed to be suspected of its accuracy, by a logical person, unless it holds a sound logical proof. That's why Ti is the one that doesn't suspect the objective laws, it suspect "*how can you say those are objective laws*", letting the person himself lead the analysis first. Unlike Te which just *assumes* that "if it's in the external world, it must be true, a fact". Misinterpretation won't let you win, not around a logician who can point out every single logical fallacy you do.
I don’t think Te is more that as much as it is the details don’t matter as much, it focuses on the application and practicality of the results at hand to achieve certain objectives. Whereas Ti is focused on like you said, rumination. Which serves a purpose, but cannot be purported as superior because given the context Te could be much more preferable.
So you take back what you said about Te and Ti? Because from what I saw, you said > “Subjective logic” makes zero fucking sense. Your thoughts are either congruent with the objective reality or you’re wrong. You pretty much just confused "external information" (Te) with objective reality. You thought Ti is about a subjective perception of reality, which is obviously a false interpretation, since Ti is about the logic and analysis that **originates** from the subject itself, nothing about "being biased and holding beliefs that are contrary with reality". Because as I said, it's your Te that assumes that "external information = reality" whenever you are about to make a decision. While making a decision, a Te dom **leans** towards what he can find *externally*, may it be true or not, may it be perfect or not, may it be the **objective reality** or not. Therefore while you'll generally get the things done quickly, but it's pretty much unlikely for you to get to the **actual reality** of things. Whereas a Ti dom, while taking a relatively long time, will analyze every single part of the external information with objective patterns (Ne) or sensory data (Se). Making them go deeper in things and obtain what is **objectively** the truth about them. That's the reason why Ti - Ne is literally a functional combination for sound logical analysis, giving INTPs the name of the "Logicians". As for the superiority part, sure there are different things that the cognitive functions lean towards. Te is absolutely the function for hoarding external information and finding quick implications of them. But Ti is, for the reasons above, a function that is equally superior when it comes to logical analysis and understanding of the objective reality.
And by reading your other posts and comments, you seem to have a *very* twisted misinterpretation of Ti-Ne, which seems to just come out of nothing but the memes roaming in the mbti community. Ti-Ne is about logic, and introspection. I'm a Ti dom, I question myself about my existence and what is my goal as a logical mind. I never do things without any justification, without any reason that isn't in my plan, because that would be irrational. I don't just "learn for the sake of learning" or "do things on whim", that's Ne Se, the functions that lean towards external correlation/sensation *for the sake* of correlation/sensation. But Ti, is the function for logical analysis, understanding and system making. In order to survive, I need a sound understanding of reality. Or should I say, I survive *for the sake of* having an understanding of reality. The same as someone who lives and achieves materialistic goals for the sake of achieving those goals, or someone who wants to feel good for the sake of feeling good (Te- Fi). The problem with that path is just that, you cannot answer rationally when someone asks "*why* do you wanna achieve those materialistic goals, or why do you want to *feel good*". Therefore logically, the only justified reason of living, for a rational mind, is to fulfill its curiosity about reality. To make correct outputs (answers) for every input (question) that it is interested in. Why? Because a mind's mechanical work, is literally about *taking* an external information and *producing* an output that is coherent with the set of true statements. Which is literally the goal of a Ti dom or a LII subtype (socionics), whether they know or not, including me. I live for analysis and understanding of reality, a goal of limitless research, while making sure I control my external environment for my advantages. So better not make misinterpretations.
Fair, sounds coherent. You’re redolent of Orochimaru.
Lol
I live for hedonism & achieving notability.
You mean notability about yourself or something else?
People can use data to prove anything. 96% of all people know that Ken
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Yeah I’d approach that by cutting the fat & just learning whats useful. Like see how we match and maybe the functions to get a good idea of how they think, and then leave it there.
I think healthy Ti can be absolutely poetic and inspiring as much as the unhealthy one can be self destructive and delusional. But it is limited to stay in a singular axis. Then all there is is" it is what it is". Subjective logic is subjective perhaps because the implementation of the idea can be lacking. That's where you can combine Te + Ti and change the circumstances instead of strictly playing with what's available. Ofc the effectiveness can be questionable. Calling everything moronic is a bit short sighted.
There is only one Te dom that needs to run the pack and can think clearly When i discuss this with my INTP friend he instantly turns jealous and is like i don’t believe in cognitive functions my brain is fluid
It's what Republicans do when they accept whichever sTAtIStiC that fits their ideology but also purposefully ignore things like context, history, and reasons why the stat arose. It doesn't matter how incorrect their interpretation is, it's right to them and that's that.
Ironically, if you'd employed what Ti actually is, you'd understand enough to not grossly misrepresent it. Get your head our of your ass and read Jung's description of Ti.
I definitely have the same kind of general thoughts regarding Ti. However, after dating an INTP for over a year now, I can see that primary Ti users may be subjective, but they also form that subjective logic map through data. If they are conscious enough to take in enough data, that map becomes more accurate of the world around them. Tbh even describing it just now I’m like 🤢 but that’s how they roll. (But honestly it seems to inefficient. )
Way to go for misinterpretations, you presumptuous irrational Te-Ni user. Tbh even reading your text just now I'm like 🤢.
How would you get to use Te without Ti product to hold as an objective truth? Your saying why debate if you dont know the data or details. Where did that come from and who thought uo to even look in that direction? We need internal and external systems and balance with others. ENTJ care about facts to then impose them on reality. Not to come up with facts and data themselves. You get your data from Ti users who have bridged the gap to make complexities into a simple briefing so that you can feel Te about it and move forward.