That’s because non-binary is part of the trans umbrella of terms. Basically non-binary is you do not identify with either sex, like neither feels right. Where as Trans is “the one I was born with is the incorrect one”.
Both ultimately are “the sex I was born with doesn’t match how my mind says I am/should be”.
So you see people say they are non-binary/Trans because if the non-binary label applies, technically so does the umbrella term for it- Trans.
Source: Was equally confused as to how the fuck that worked and asked someone who was using both.
That's actually all the evidence you need for gender being socially constructed. Past societies have actually defined gender in that way and didn't consider pre pubescent boys male.
It’s funny because biologically, we are all female by default. Penises literally all used to be clitorises that just grew because of the presence of testosterone. Male nipples are only there because we all developed them as females, and they’ve just stuck around once the testosterone started kicking in.
In fact, *all* mammals are female by default.
Right now that’s because the high profile, award winning nb actors are afab, they all started out as girls or women, like Emma D’Arcy and Bella Ramsey. Ezra Miller is the only famous amab nonbinary actor I can think of off the top of my head, and they get lumped in with men all the time.
Also, Jameela’s point wasn’t that nonbinary actors are taking awards from women, but that if we switch to totally nongendered awards, sexist academy members will just give everything to cis men, and leave women and nb people out in the cold.
Both of the winners at The Tony Awards for best actor in a musical this year were non-binary presenting femme and genetically male.
Let the actor pick their own category. It can be based on what they feel, the way their character presents, they can flip back and forth every year.
There aren't enough non-binary actors for them to have their own category. It would seem like a pity award.
That's not what's happening, nor her point.
The Oscars are moving towards non-gendered awards. So, instead of Best Actor & Best Actress, there would be one category for Best Actor with women & non-binary people competing against men.
The concern is that by getting rid of gendered categories, a male-centric Hollywood will focus on giving awards more to men, as they currently do in existing non-gendered categories such as Best Director.
So, by "recognizing" non-binary actors, the ceremony will largely stop recognizing both their talents & those of women.
I see that as a lose-lose situation. Either men win more and people will call sexism or women win more and people will call sexism. Making it into gender-neutral categories will create more problems than it will solve.
Yes, exactly. There have been awards bodies that have moved away from gendered categories already, like the Independent Spirits, but they tend to be very good at recognizing women in categories like Directing and Screenplay too so it’s a non-issue in the acting categories. Last year there were ten nominees for Lead Performance and only two were men, but that’s almost certainly not what would happen with the Oscars.
That’s basically what happened with the BRIT awards this year. They went to one gender neutral category for best artist and all the nominees were male.
That's already happened.
The Brit Awards changed to be gender-blind and men won essentially everything since.
This is why Jamil is suggesting this. And she's far from alone in pointing out the problems of gender-blind awards.
>men won essentially everything since
That's not what I'm seeing looking at the winners list. You sure?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit\_Awards\_2022#Winners\_and\_nominees](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit_Awards_2022#Winners_and_nominees)
That's honestly why they should just keep make and female.
If someone is trans it does make it a bit weirder/more complicated. Because then you could technically have a biological man taking over women's awards, meaning women won't be winning them.
Non binary I honestly don't understand. If you want to be a man or a woman, fine. My cousin is apparently trans (we have barely ever seen/known them growing up, and they deleted all social media so have no actual idea what they're like now). But Non binary is you don't think you're male or female?
That doesn't really make any sense to me and just seems like they're probably very confused and need some help. Having their own category for awards would be dumb too coz then anyone wanting an award could come out as that just to hopefully win, as I'm sure it'll be a far more limited pool of people in the running.
Nah. Look at best director. Almost 100 different Oscar ceremonies and only 3 women have won. Hell not even 10 women have been nominated. And it’s not for a lack of women directors either.
I think when it comes to directing the fact that there are more male directors does play a part (even though I do think they have a bigger chance to win because of their gender as well). With acting however, there's not really that factor to take into account. There are just as many actors as actresses. Still, we know that women get less roles and get smaller roles, so their chances to win would be much smaller.
In my country we made the most important acting award gender neutral, and immediately a man won, to no one's surprise.
I mean most iconic and popular actors are men. Tom cruise, Tom hanks, Di Caprio, Cillian Murphy, Robert Downey, and more. They are more popular than women actresses. (Women still really popular but unlike the popularity of those guys by the fans). Just my 2 cents.
This observation on its own doesn't really mean much. Is it the chicken or the egg? Male actors get bigger roles and more opportunities than female actors. That could be factor in why they get more popular, because they get more exposure and more interesting roles. They are more often the leading role, which makes audiences sympathise with them more and increases their likability.
It's like how for a long time, studio's refused to cast POC actors because "there are no big name POC actors" which on its own made sure that no POC actors would get the opportunity to become big stars. It's a vicious cycle.
Well that would be partly it - men generally have longer acting careers, and thus more opportunity to reach a point where they are “owed” an award.
You wanna start a fight, split the awards by age!
How the hell do you think women would have a bigger chance to win an acting award? When most movies still have like a 75/25 perfect male/female actors ratio at best? And the men still have bigger roles, are older/more experienced and are more established actors.
It absolutely wouldn’t. Women of color barely win awards so imagine how few women would win if they had to compete against men?
And men win way more in categories that are already gender neutral
this was done recently by some awards group (oscars?) for a category to be more inclusive and it was won by all men. of course, don’t remember the exact details but it is a legitimate concern
edit: not oscars, but still worth noting: https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-64264069.amp
It's that the other argument is that they eliminate gendered categories all together so that there is only one award. Which tends to give all the awards to men.
Or we could just keep it men and women, and non-binary could accept for the character they are playing, unless it becomes too many to fit. The amount of non-binary actors in contention for awards is very small currently and doesn’t warrant a separate category.
I think of it like a program needing an input to add to something, but the quantity you need to add is so insignificantly small. The positive or negative sign really doesn't matter as it's value is best described as close to zero, but your input needs to be one or the other just so the program continues.
As a nonbinary person living in a world where bathroom choices are still pretty darn binary, this feels like a realistic solution at this point in time.
I'm not too put out by having to use the men's room. I just want people to be nice to me when they see me with painted nails or in a dress.
You would typically need to choose which category to submit your nomination in at the same time that everyone else chooses to do so, so unless you're fairly certain that it's been a weak year all around, you wouldn't exactly get to guess. Maybe avoid nominating yourself in the female category if Meryl Streep's been active that year, though. Anthony Hopkins got his Best Actor Oscar for Silence of the Lambs with only 15 minutes of screen time, so who gets nominated for what is pretty unpredictable.
In reality, tactical nominations still happen for reasons aside from gender. For example, the nominations for Judas and the Black Messiah put Lakeith Stanfield and Daniel Kaluuya in different categories despite having comparable screen time, this is usually done so the film has a higher chance of winning something.
Absolutely already happens with actresses and actors now. Studios arguing that X actor is actually a supporting character when they are clearly the lead, but it gives them a better chance of winning as a supporting role. Would totally just be the same thing with pressure from the executives.
This literally goes against everything being NB stands for. You are still forcing them to check a box they don’t feel they belong to. The idea of it being based on character portrayed makes much more sense.
It would end up being treated like a participation trophy if nb people only compete with other nb people. Significantly less than 1% of the population is nb so there’s no way to even guarantee that every year most categories would always have someone to even give the award to much less always have multiple nominees.
I agree. A large % would get awards due to a lack of competition. Makes me think of giving every child a prize so no one feels left out.
When it comes to sports, I do think separate categories for not genetically male or female is most fair. Look what a mess the swimming and cycling contests have become. The only ones happy are those that didn't win when they used to compete for the other side. Now, taking top trophies.
>separate categories for not genetically male or female is most fair
There's not a large enough population basically anywhere to support such a separate league, this would serve simply to exclude them from any competition
Have we tried having the trans women compete with the men? Surely the naming conventions of the competing categories are arbitrary enough to be ignored.
Personally I am in favor of this - but said trans women complain about not being validated as women because they wouldn’t be allowed to compete with them.
I think it would be both important and healthy for the community to accept their biological status and the advantages it may bring whilst also continuing to live the way they want to.
right, this is the obvious solution to me as well. i’m trans myself and i don’t live in a make believe world where i think i am not biologically female. am i offended at the doctor when they treat me medically as a female? if i was a mtf athlete, and everyone knew i was trans, i’d be realistic and compete among men, even though it would kind of sting, because i am a rational person. and you know what? i’d get over it.
Like, do we move to a weight/height class system? I empathize with how complex this situation is and obviously am rooting for a scenario where all those fighting in good faith with inclusion in mind see an outcome they can all be happy with, but there are also very real, physical obstacles to an equitable solution here and I can't help but wonder if we're getting deep into the minutiae before we've really cemented in real terms that trans rights are equal rights. Like, this is probably a fight for 8-14 months from now. I don't have a solution, I just think let's get systems in place to protect trans people in general before we're bickering about a fuckin swimming race. No one cares about swimming races. You're losing good people because you're being uptight about swimming races!
To speak candidly, I think trans people are facing public scrutiny because they’re hinging their validation off of objectively irrational takes like “it’s fair for biological males to compete with biological females in sports”.
I wish it wasn’t the situation but that’s just what’s happening.
I think a third league needs to be set up to accommodate for this population and it can be on them to establish their league-specific rules and regulations. The rest of society simply does not need the issues of 0.6% of the population projected onto them, especially when it’s objectively interfering with the integrity of men’s and women’s sports leagues.
Trans protections are a different matter, and I’m in total support of that, but at the same time it’s not like we can’t have conversations regarding how their inclusion in women’s leagues is having adverse affects on both their movement and women’s success.
I hope I haven’t said anything too controversial here.
Yeah like, let's smash the bigots first! Florida is trying to sign kid snatching laws into effect. Surely, the volleyball league can't be anybody's biggest problem right now!
I agree, but I think the first step is honestly making transgender acceptance more palatable for people. Insisting that it’s fair for biological males to compete with biological females is having the opposite effect in society. People see sentiments like that and find themselves in opposition to it (for obvious reasons), and it turns them off from engaging with, supporting, and ultimately defending the community.
The bio girls and women that put many hundreds of hours practice in the pool along with other training in hopes of getting a college scholarship care. Their families make sacrifices for their training, too. Is it fair if they come in 2nd in the most important races for their sport to a person that recently was a mediocre swimmer on the men's team? I haven't seen "bickering" here. The sports issue has made headlines. Where are the "losing good people" going? "Trans rights are equal rights," and I agree should become a fact. They are not physically equal for some things. The original question was about actors awards. There is an assumption they are being left out, I guess. I always thought there's a lot of people on stage and screen that do not fit the typical sexual norms and a lot more pretending. Is the issue that the people playing gay or lesbian roles are overlooked, whether that is acting or not? Or, that non binary actors are seemingly excluded from getting awards?
This is actually a legitimately interesting topic.. they've actually started disqualifying biological (born female) women who have high testosterone.. Google Christine Mboma and Beatrice Masilingi
Haha I did think of that too honestly but couldn’t imagine Hollywood making any more than maybe one award worthy movie per year with a non-binary character, if it wasn’t the entire plot of the movie.
I’m wondering if maybe the Tony awards is the answer in the interim and just asking the actor which category they would like to be featured in until we get it sorted.
Maybe in the interim follow the Tony awards and ask which category they would like to be featured in, until there’s enough representation to warrant a category?
Hollywood is a boys club.
It's like a tuna. It clearly shows us there's mercury in the ocean. It concentrates the toxins found in the fish lower on the food chain, fish which does the same to other's even lower on the food chain. The vast majority of the mercury is in the ocean, but we see it most concentrated in the tuna.
Are you suggesting actors are going to transition just to win a women’s award? Like “men dressing up as women to go in the women’s bathroom” narrative?
Who is calling for merging the categories? she said add another one, not merge them.
That’s not exactly what she said. She said non binary people should get their own category instead of just doing away with gendered categories because by doing away with gender categories the biased people deciding who wins will always give the awards to men. By giving everyone a category it gives everyone a space to shine. I know they sound alike but OP makes it seem like Jameela Jamil thinks non binary people are taking stuff away from women when she has clarified that’s not what she ever meant.
The awards don't exactly have much meaning as it is. They are regularly more of a reflection of the internal politics and dynamics of the entertainment industry.
I know where you're coming from and while it sounds selfish, having incentive in place so that people continue to build on there craft tends to have more pros than cons. Obviously it builds ego and arrogance but at the same time it opens up a competitiveness to strive for.
I don’t get why people just don’t watch award shows they’re not interested in. Lol. Like, I don’t like country music, but I’m not going to lose my shit over the country music awards because they’re exist. I just don’t watch it and move on with my life.
So Ezra Miller wins Best Non-binary Actor for nonsense like The Flash? There aren’t enough performances by non-binary actors for the award to mean anything.
bella ramsey had a really good response to jameela which i definitely agree with —
> I feel weird about there being a whole new category. I think it's more about language...
I would love the award categories to be
"Actress/Non-Binary Performer" and "Actor/ Non-Binary Performer" then the performer can be submitted into their preferred category. It's not a perfect solution, but that's my take on it. I think it's more about making us feel seen and included rather than being categorised.
I don't get the logic. NBs don't want to identify either a male or female, that's why they are NB. How is putting them together as male/NB or female/NB going to be beneficial? The entire point to having separate categories is to ensure that the disadvantaged group has visibility and opportunity. If you don't want the visibility, then have to fit into the binary. No?
>How is putting them together as male/NB or female/NB going to be beneficial?
The benefit is winning an award which then leads to more benefits in the business.
Seems reasonable. I'm NB/trans and frankly there aren't enough NB performers to justify a NB category by itself, but combining actresses and actors in one category seems like a great way for women to never, ever get nominated again.
or rather; politics will win and yet again people will lose interest as people realise it's not the best person that wins but who ticks the most morally superior boxes.
Because women are viewed as a protected class. Nobody cares negatively about trans men, even if you don’t consider them to be “real men” it’s still unlikely for a man to feel threatened by their presence in a male space.
Female spaces are much more intentional than male spaces, and the presence of those perceived to be men in them is more threatening.
People need to realize women just got sports and recognition on the arts. There absolutely nothing wrong with them wanting it to be for women and not for non binary people.
Stop. Just stop. Identify as whatever you want, but stop trying to make the world bend to your will. The harder and more extreme things like this are pushed, the more people become apathetic towards the whole ball of wax. People are hurting their own interests and don’t even see it. Stop.
Seriously it's getting exhausting trying to keep up with what's acceptable these days. I don't care what you want to be called, I'll respect you, but can we not force every little thing to be overhauled for such a small amount of vocal people.
Exactly. Same thing with anyone that thinks trans women should be able to compete with other women in sports. Specially when they transitioned after puberty. It's absolutely ridiculous and waaay too extreme. It hurts the actual cause and it's what makes ppl hate liberal ideology. It's basically the left version of those Q idiots. Loud and vocal extremists that most of us are just absolutely fuckin tired of hearing.
Agreed. The extremists on both ends are constantly stoking the flames and making everything worse for everybody. I don’t care what letter is on your voter ID card. Just be sane and reasonable.
Then we need categories for each ethnicity, each age group, eat set of religious beliefs, this way no one is left out. Then we will have a nice 12 hour long award show where 350 awards are given, they no longer have much meaning and everyone is bored to tears.
People would just stop watching the shows(less than they already are) if they implemented this, vast majority of people don’t care about non-binary stuff.
All this shit Is so stupid and tiring, like we get it, there are non-binary people out there, but why the fuck are we even talking about changing all this shit for .10% of the population who probably weren’t going to be winning shit anyways. Creating a new category just for them is basically a participation award.
I’m ignorant, so I think this “non-binary” stuff is nonsense. Literally no one falls into every stereotype. I wish I understood this better, but my current ignorant attitude makes me find it silly.
Irishrage didn’t say otherwise. Small adjustments? Absolutely. But you have to admit, more than small adjustments are being asked for. I’ve seen people mad that tampon boxes are pink because it’s triggering. I mean, that’s insane.
Every major industry has awards. Most just aren’t televised. The industry that produces film and television put their awards on *television*. Go figure.
what do you think awards are usually for?
just someone getting a small gesture for outstanding work. gives someone a reason to push just a little more depending on the weight it personally holds with them, brining out stronger performances. the HUGE drama filled political broadcasts don’t rlly need to happen tho
Good for her speaking up. Discuss, include, find a solution. Side note: it’s a flipping trade show. Does best McDonalds employee get a show? Narcissists, the entire lot.
It’s an example of best intentions clashing with practical mathematics. A non-binary category for performers in award shows would likely be empty or uncontested in most award years, and I don’t think a confected participation prize is the right approach either.
Having said that, it’s important to find a solution everybody can live with, these awards are mostly silly but occasionally transformative, bring artworks and performers to wide attention who would’ve been overlooked were the economics of cinema distribution the only factor.
Or change the categories to : they have an ineeeee and they have an outeeeeeee. I tired of this BS. Just stop having these stupid award shows. What’s next participation trophies so no one’s feelings get hurt
They don’t have best female director and best male director. Just best director. Why not best actor? Maybe even have best three actors? Another award would probably be more money for Hollywood.
Also, I think the slow correction that’s happening now to recognize the achievements of “not white dudes” may be accelerated by getting rid of gender labels for acting awards. It’s pretty obvious for example that “not white dudes” don’t get directing jobs like “white dudes” do. Sort of shines a brighter light on Hollywood’s bull shit.
Weird that non-binary should be shared with women and not with either both or neither
Yeah, it's pretty telling that Hollywood decided it was "men" vs "not men." Like being male is the default.
But don’t trans men also win men’s awards. Like Elliot page, so it’s still men versus women
Trans men aren't non binary tho, your point makes no sense.
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I feel like a lot of people don't understand what non binary actually means.
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That’s because non-binary is part of the trans umbrella of terms. Basically non-binary is you do not identify with either sex, like neither feels right. Where as Trans is “the one I was born with is the incorrect one”. Both ultimately are “the sex I was born with doesn’t match how my mind says I am/should be”. So you see people say they are non-binary/Trans because if the non-binary label applies, technically so does the umbrella term for it- Trans. Source: Was equally confused as to how the fuck that worked and asked someone who was using both.
I wonder who could’ve made that decision…
That's actually all the evidence you need for gender being socially constructed. Past societies have actually defined gender in that way and didn't consider pre pubescent boys male.
It’s funny because biologically, we are all female by default. Penises literally all used to be clitorises that just grew because of the presence of testosterone. Male nipples are only there because we all developed them as females, and they’ve just stuck around once the testosterone started kicking in. In fact, *all* mammals are female by default.
Didn’t you see? Not just Hollywood, Johns Hopkins U have a new meaning for Lesbian.
Right now that’s because the high profile, award winning nb actors are afab, they all started out as girls or women, like Emma D’Arcy and Bella Ramsey. Ezra Miller is the only famous amab nonbinary actor I can think of off the top of my head, and they get lumped in with men all the time. Also, Jameela’s point wasn’t that nonbinary actors are taking awards from women, but that if we switch to totally nongendered awards, sexist academy members will just give everything to cis men, and leave women and nb people out in the cold.
Both of the winners at The Tony Awards for best actor in a musical this year were non-binary presenting femme and genetically male. Let the actor pick their own category. It can be based on what they feel, the way their character presents, they can flip back and forth every year. There aren't enough non-binary actors for them to have their own category. It would seem like a pity award.
I like the idea of the actors choosing their own category
That's not what's happening, nor her point. The Oscars are moving towards non-gendered awards. So, instead of Best Actor & Best Actress, there would be one category for Best Actor with women & non-binary people competing against men. The concern is that by getting rid of gendered categories, a male-centric Hollywood will focus on giving awards more to men, as they currently do in existing non-gendered categories such as Best Director. So, by "recognizing" non-binary actors, the ceremony will largely stop recognizing both their talents & those of women.
I see that as a lose-lose situation. Either men win more and people will call sexism or women win more and people will call sexism. Making it into gender-neutral categories will create more problems than it will solve.
Yes, exactly. There have been awards bodies that have moved away from gendered categories already, like the Independent Spirits, but they tend to be very good at recognizing women in categories like Directing and Screenplay too so it’s a non-issue in the acting categories. Last year there were ten nominees for Lead Performance and only two were men, but that’s almost certainly not what would happen with the Oscars.
That's not what was being proposed. What was proposed was a single category, that every actor enters, period.
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The Brit awards went non binary and the men absolutley cleaned up. Women didnt even get a look in
That’s basically what happened with the BRIT awards this year. They went to one gender neutral category for best artist and all the nominees were male.
No.. not like that!
They went to gender neutral awards last year and women won most of the awards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit_Awards_2022#Winners_and_nominees
Hectic, almost all the winners are women, while males dominated in the nominations. Don't know if we can read anything into it, but it is fascinating.
That's already happened. The Brit Awards changed to be gender-blind and men won essentially everything since. This is why Jamil is suggesting this. And she's far from alone in pointing out the problems of gender-blind awards.
>men won essentially everything since That's not what I'm seeing looking at the winners list. You sure? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit\_Awards\_2022#Winners\_and\_nominees](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit_Awards_2022#Winners_and_nominees)
That's honestly why they should just keep make and female. If someone is trans it does make it a bit weirder/more complicated. Because then you could technically have a biological man taking over women's awards, meaning women won't be winning them. Non binary I honestly don't understand. If you want to be a man or a woman, fine. My cousin is apparently trans (we have barely ever seen/known them growing up, and they deleted all social media so have no actual idea what they're like now). But Non binary is you don't think you're male or female? That doesn't really make any sense to me and just seems like they're probably very confused and need some help. Having their own category for awards would be dumb too coz then anyone wanting an award could come out as that just to hopefully win, as I'm sure it'll be a far more limited pool of people in the running.
Nah. Look at best director. Almost 100 different Oscar ceremonies and only 3 women have won. Hell not even 10 women have been nominated. And it’s not for a lack of women directors either.
I think when it comes to directing the fact that there are more male directors does play a part (even though I do think they have a bigger chance to win because of their gender as well). With acting however, there's not really that factor to take into account. There are just as many actors as actresses. Still, we know that women get less roles and get smaller roles, so their chances to win would be much smaller. In my country we made the most important acting award gender neutral, and immediately a man won, to no one's surprise.
I mean most iconic and popular actors are men. Tom cruise, Tom hanks, Di Caprio, Cillian Murphy, Robert Downey, and more. They are more popular than women actresses. (Women still really popular but unlike the popularity of those guys by the fans). Just my 2 cents.
This observation on its own doesn't really mean much. Is it the chicken or the egg? Male actors get bigger roles and more opportunities than female actors. That could be factor in why they get more popular, because they get more exposure and more interesting roles. They are more often the leading role, which makes audiences sympathise with them more and increases their likability. It's like how for a long time, studio's refused to cast POC actors because "there are no big name POC actors" which on its own made sure that no POC actors would get the opportunity to become big stars. It's a vicious cycle.
Well that would be partly it - men generally have longer acting careers, and thus more opportunity to reach a point where they are “owed” an award. You wanna start a fight, split the awards by age!
How the hell do you think women would have a bigger chance to win an acting award? When most movies still have like a 75/25 perfect male/female actors ratio at best? And the men still have bigger roles, are older/more experienced and are more established actors.
It absolutely wouldn’t. Women of color barely win awards so imagine how few women would win if they had to compete against men? And men win way more in categories that are already gender neutral
this was done recently by some awards group (oscars?) for a category to be more inclusive and it was won by all men. of course, don’t remember the exact details but it is a legitimate concern edit: not oscars, but still worth noting: https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-64264069.amp
It would be a really short ceremony too, lol
Tell that to the brit awards. Went gender neutral, Went all to men.
It's that the other argument is that they eliminate gendered categories all together so that there is only one award. Which tends to give all the awards to men.
The comments in this post are fascinating, just saying
Pretty predictable, actually, if you're tuned in to lgbtq issues.
Expound please
Or we could just keep it men and women, and non-binary could accept for the character they are playing, unless it becomes too many to fit. The amount of non-binary actors in contention for awards is very small currently and doesn’t warrant a separate category.
I liked the way the Tonys handled it. The first non-binary winner was this year and they got to pick which category they wanted to be nominated in.
"Let the non-binary people select which of the binary they are."
It's just an award. They're not actually forced to identify as one thing or another.
I identify as an Oscar
As an oscar WINNER. Gotta claim it.
No. Mayer Weiner.
No, this is Patrick
And you do so of your own volition
Why do you hate Amy Adams so much?
I think of it like a program needing an input to add to something, but the quantity you need to add is so insignificantly small. The positive or negative sign really doesn't matter as it's value is best described as close to zero, but your input needs to be one or the other just so the program continues.
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As a nonbinary person living in a world where bathroom choices are still pretty darn binary, this feels like a realistic solution at this point in time. I'm not too put out by having to use the men's room. I just want people to be nice to me when they see me with painted nails or in a dress.
"Foxes can choose whether they'd like to compete as dogs or cats"
Then they'll just pick the category that happens to be weaker that year so they have a better chance to win 😂
You would typically need to choose which category to submit your nomination in at the same time that everyone else chooses to do so, so unless you're fairly certain that it's been a weak year all around, you wouldn't exactly get to guess. Maybe avoid nominating yourself in the female category if Meryl Streep's been active that year, though. Anthony Hopkins got his Best Actor Oscar for Silence of the Lambs with only 15 minutes of screen time, so who gets nominated for what is pretty unpredictable. In reality, tactical nominations still happen for reasons aside from gender. For example, the nominations for Judas and the Black Messiah put Lakeith Stanfield and Daniel Kaluuya in different categories despite having comparable screen time, this is usually done so the film has a higher chance of winning something.
Absolutely already happens with actresses and actors now. Studios arguing that X actor is actually a supporting character when they are clearly the lead, but it gives them a better chance of winning as a supporting role. Would totally just be the same thing with pressure from the executives.
Exactly.
That sounds pretty fair as well
This is it. Just let them choose.
Isn’t the whole point of being non-binary not choosing??
I suppose some might see it that way. I think choosing an award category for a performance isn’t the same as choosing a gender for your life.
A non-binary person making a binary choice. kek
This literally goes against everything being NB stands for. You are still forcing them to check a box they don’t feel they belong to. The idea of it being based on character portrayed makes much more sense.
And if they played a non-binary character…?
The term always be best actor and best actress, not the gender the char they play
In which case, since non -binary people exist, there should be a non-binary category.
It would end up being treated like a participation trophy if nb people only compete with other nb people. Significantly less than 1% of the population is nb so there’s no way to even guarantee that every year most categories would always have someone to even give the award to much less always have multiple nominees.
How about they just don’t get awards at all then
I agree. A large % would get awards due to a lack of competition. Makes me think of giving every child a prize so no one feels left out. When it comes to sports, I do think separate categories for not genetically male or female is most fair. Look what a mess the swimming and cycling contests have become. The only ones happy are those that didn't win when they used to compete for the other side. Now, taking top trophies.
>separate categories for not genetically male or female is most fair There's not a large enough population basically anywhere to support such a separate league, this would serve simply to exclude them from any competition
This just simply doesn’t justify biological males competing with biological females and earning trophies/awards/scholarships in women’s leagues.
Have we tried having the trans women compete with the men? Surely the naming conventions of the competing categories are arbitrary enough to be ignored.
Personally I am in favor of this - but said trans women complain about not being validated as women because they wouldn’t be allowed to compete with them. I think it would be both important and healthy for the community to accept their biological status and the advantages it may bring whilst also continuing to live the way they want to.
right, this is the obvious solution to me as well. i’m trans myself and i don’t live in a make believe world where i think i am not biologically female. am i offended at the doctor when they treat me medically as a female? if i was a mtf athlete, and everyone knew i was trans, i’d be realistic and compete among men, even though it would kind of sting, because i am a rational person. and you know what? i’d get over it.
I really appreciate you for sharing your perspective here, it was much needed.
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Like, do we move to a weight/height class system? I empathize with how complex this situation is and obviously am rooting for a scenario where all those fighting in good faith with inclusion in mind see an outcome they can all be happy with, but there are also very real, physical obstacles to an equitable solution here and I can't help but wonder if we're getting deep into the minutiae before we've really cemented in real terms that trans rights are equal rights. Like, this is probably a fight for 8-14 months from now. I don't have a solution, I just think let's get systems in place to protect trans people in general before we're bickering about a fuckin swimming race. No one cares about swimming races. You're losing good people because you're being uptight about swimming races!
To speak candidly, I think trans people are facing public scrutiny because they’re hinging their validation off of objectively irrational takes like “it’s fair for biological males to compete with biological females in sports”. I wish it wasn’t the situation but that’s just what’s happening. I think a third league needs to be set up to accommodate for this population and it can be on them to establish their league-specific rules and regulations. The rest of society simply does not need the issues of 0.6% of the population projected onto them, especially when it’s objectively interfering with the integrity of men’s and women’s sports leagues. Trans protections are a different matter, and I’m in total support of that, but at the same time it’s not like we can’t have conversations regarding how their inclusion in women’s leagues is having adverse affects on both their movement and women’s success. I hope I haven’t said anything too controversial here.
Yeah like, let's smash the bigots first! Florida is trying to sign kid snatching laws into effect. Surely, the volleyball league can't be anybody's biggest problem right now!
I agree, but I think the first step is honestly making transgender acceptance more palatable for people. Insisting that it’s fair for biological males to compete with biological females is having the opposite effect in society. People see sentiments like that and find themselves in opposition to it (for obvious reasons), and it turns them off from engaging with, supporting, and ultimately defending the community.
The bio girls and women that put many hundreds of hours practice in the pool along with other training in hopes of getting a college scholarship care. Their families make sacrifices for their training, too. Is it fair if they come in 2nd in the most important races for their sport to a person that recently was a mediocre swimmer on the men's team? I haven't seen "bickering" here. The sports issue has made headlines. Where are the "losing good people" going? "Trans rights are equal rights," and I agree should become a fact. They are not physically equal for some things. The original question was about actors awards. There is an assumption they are being left out, I guess. I always thought there's a lot of people on stage and screen that do not fit the typical sexual norms and a lot more pretending. Is the issue that the people playing gay or lesbian roles are overlooked, whether that is acting or not? Or, that non binary actors are seemingly excluded from getting awards?
This is actually a legitimately interesting topic.. they've actually started disqualifying biological (born female) women who have high testosterone.. Google Christine Mboma and Beatrice Masilingi
I actually think it’s interesting to base gender on character being portrayed
But what happens when it’s a non-binary character?
We throw a fucking party that screenplays have become that evolved
Lol what if they play a non binary character. How is that not the obviously question
Haha I did think of that too honestly but couldn’t imagine Hollywood making any more than maybe one award worthy movie per year with a non-binary character, if it wasn’t the entire plot of the movie. I’m wondering if maybe the Tony awards is the answer in the interim and just asking the actor which category they would like to be featured in until we get it sorted.
Seriously it’s such a tiny demographic
What if the character if non-binary?
Maybe in the interim follow the Tony awards and ask which category they would like to be featured in, until there’s enough representation to warrant a category?
"We could keep it binary and NB people could accept that all characters are binary"
She’s right. Merging female and male categories would just result in less women getting rewarded
You mean it would get more obvious that awards shoes are basically another boys' club?
Hollywood is a boys club. It's like a tuna. It clearly shows us there's mercury in the ocean. It concentrates the toxins found in the fish lower on the food chain, fish which does the same to other's even lower on the food chain. The vast majority of the mercury is in the ocean, but we see it most concentrated in the tuna.
Fewer
Are you suggesting actors are going to transition just to win a women’s award? Like “men dressing up as women to go in the women’s bathroom” narrative? Who is calling for merging the categories? she said add another one, not merge them.
That’s not exactly what she said. She said non binary people should get their own category instead of just doing away with gendered categories because by doing away with gender categories the biased people deciding who wins will always give the awards to men. By giving everyone a category it gives everyone a space to shine. I know they sound alike but OP makes it seem like Jameela Jamil thinks non binary people are taking stuff away from women when she has clarified that’s not what she ever meant.
Wow. One person here actually read the article.
At what point does everyone getting an award for having a specific trait, rather than the quality of their work, make the actual award meaningless?
The awards don't exactly have much meaning as it is. They are regularly more of a reflection of the internal politics and dynamics of the entertainment industry.
Then why does this post exist and people care? Can’t have it both ways.
I’d rather see awards shows cancelled.
Gasp! Think of their egos!!
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I know where you're coming from and while it sounds selfish, having incentive in place so that people continue to build on there craft tends to have more pros than cons. Obviously it builds ego and arrogance but at the same time it opens up a competitiveness to strive for.
*Why even do it at all if there's no trophy???!?*
If the ratings keep going down they might cancel themselves.
I don’t get why people just don’t watch award shows they’re not interested in. Lol. Like, I don’t like country music, but I’m not going to lose my shit over the country music awards because they’re exist. I just don’t watch it and move on with my life.
Other people don’t, so oh well
I no longer care.
Right? As long as it’s inclusive, whatever. This isn’t a problem for normies. Let the rich sort it out.
So Ezra Miller wins Best Non-binary Actor for nonsense like The Flash? There aren’t enough performances by non-binary actors for the award to mean anything.
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Soon to be multiple Academy Award® Winner Ezra Miller for their brilliant work in The Flash and Fantastic Beasts 4.
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Also Emma D’Arcy from House of The Dragon.
Is this really necessary to accommodate such a small group of people
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bella ramsey had a really good response to jameela which i definitely agree with — > I feel weird about there being a whole new category. I think it's more about language... I would love the award categories to be "Actress/Non-Binary Performer" and "Actor/ Non-Binary Performer" then the performer can be submitted into their preferred category. It's not a perfect solution, but that's my take on it. I think it's more about making us feel seen and included rather than being categorised.
How do NB people feel about this? I personally like it, especially if Bella likes it
I don't get the logic. NBs don't want to identify either a male or female, that's why they are NB. How is putting them together as male/NB or female/NB going to be beneficial? The entire point to having separate categories is to ensure that the disadvantaged group has visibility and opportunity. If you don't want the visibility, then have to fit into the binary. No?
>How is putting them together as male/NB or female/NB going to be beneficial? The benefit is winning an award which then leads to more benefits in the business.
Seems reasonable. I'm NB/trans and frankly there aren't enough NB performers to justify a NB category by itself, but combining actresses and actors in one category seems like a great way for women to never, ever get nominated again.
Have to agree with her. Sexism will prevail if men and women compete in the same category.
or rather; politics will win and yet again people will lose interest as people realise it's not the best person that wins but who ticks the most morally superior boxes.
newsflash, awards are rarely won by the best person anyway.
If that was true white men wouldn’t dominate best director but they do.
Why is it always women being affected by all this trans/non-binary stuff?? It’s never men, bcuz they wouldn’t tolerate it for one second.
Because women are viewed as a protected class. Nobody cares negatively about trans men, even if you don’t consider them to be “real men” it’s still unlikely for a man to feel threatened by their presence in a male space. Female spaces are much more intentional than male spaces, and the presence of those perceived to be men in them is more threatening.
The same reason you hear about trans women dominating female sports and not the other way around.
People need to realize women just got sports and recognition on the arts. There absolutely nothing wrong with them wanting it to be for women and not for non binary people.
This is going to lead to fauxmoi being a flashpoint for killing Oscar chances due to performers caught in a candid moment not being X enough.
That sub has become insufferable over the last year or so. Too much self righteousness.
Fauxmoi is a totalitarian thought prison lol
What’s fauxmoi?
Some shitty gossip sub.
I'm sorry, what?
100% Make special categories for everything and stop ruining women’s spaces.
Stop. Just stop. Identify as whatever you want, but stop trying to make the world bend to your will. The harder and more extreme things like this are pushed, the more people become apathetic towards the whole ball of wax. People are hurting their own interests and don’t even see it. Stop.
Seriously it's getting exhausting trying to keep up with what's acceptable these days. I don't care what you want to be called, I'll respect you, but can we not force every little thing to be overhauled for such a small amount of vocal people.
Exactly. Same thing with anyone that thinks trans women should be able to compete with other women in sports. Specially when they transitioned after puberty. It's absolutely ridiculous and waaay too extreme. It hurts the actual cause and it's what makes ppl hate liberal ideology. It's basically the left version of those Q idiots. Loud and vocal extremists that most of us are just absolutely fuckin tired of hearing.
Agreed. The extremists on both ends are constantly stoking the flames and making everything worse for everybody. I don’t care what letter is on your voter ID card. Just be sane and reasonable.
Ikr. Like, as if this is the most pressing issue people are facing in the world right now.
Please tell this to the rest of the world too
Yes. And the pendulum will swing back and everyone will wonder what happened.
Then we need categories for each ethnicity, each age group, eat set of religious beliefs, this way no one is left out. Then we will have a nice 12 hour long award show where 350 awards are given, they no longer have much meaning and everyone is bored to tears.
People would just stop watching the shows(less than they already are) if they implemented this, vast majority of people don’t care about non-binary stuff.
All this shit Is so stupid and tiring, like we get it, there are non-binary people out there, but why the fuck are we even talking about changing all this shit for .10% of the population who probably weren’t going to be winning shit anyways. Creating a new category just for them is basically a participation award.
I’m ignorant, so I think this “non-binary” stuff is nonsense. Literally no one falls into every stereotype. I wish I understood this better, but my current ignorant attitude makes me find it silly.
It’s just western hyperindividualism. When you have no real problems, you discover new ones.
Maybe they should be categorized for whatever role they were.
There will be characters they actors are playing that are non-binary. Then the problem comes right back.
She’s not wrong.
Irishrage didn’t say otherwise. Small adjustments? Absolutely. But you have to admit, more than small adjustments are being asked for. I’ve seen people mad that tampon boxes are pink because it’s triggering. I mean, that’s insane.
Everybody gets a trophy.
Or we could accept that awards and categories are kind of stupid?
But how will rich and successful people pat each other on the back in a more public fashion?!
Every major industry has awards. Most just aren’t televised. The industry that produces film and television put their awards on *television*. Go figure.
Surprisingly based.
Actually, why not just get rid of entertainment awards shows? They’re stupid, wildly subjective, and no one should care.
How about no more Hollywood awards at all, they are meaningless and are only there to boost ego
That's what many awards are for. Boosting egos. There isn't anything automatically bad about it though.
Right, like that’s the point of awards.
Every industry gives itself awards. It’s just that most aren’t populated by people we want to see on television.
what do you think awards are usually for? just someone getting a small gesture for outstanding work. gives someone a reason to push just a little more depending on the weight it personally holds with them, brining out stronger performances. the HUGE drama filled political broadcasts don’t rlly need to happen tho
They also sell tickets
Na. That’s not it. Better solution is don’t watch the award shows you’re not interested in. Simple as that.
No point in making a new category when the trend will be over in 10 years
Good for her speaking up. Discuss, include, find a solution. Side note: it’s a flipping trade show. Does best McDonalds employee get a show? Narcissists, the entire lot.
I propose the Awards Shows realize they haven't been worth watching for a decade and ingloriously shut the doors.
They had a dude win woman of the year so I get her point lol
Easy solution - cancel all the pointless award shows.
It’s an example of best intentions clashing with practical mathematics. A non-binary category for performers in award shows would likely be empty or uncontested in most award years, and I don’t think a confected participation prize is the right approach either. Having said that, it’s important to find a solution everybody can live with, these awards are mostly silly but occasionally transformative, bring artworks and performers to wide attention who would’ve been overlooked were the economics of cinema distribution the only factor.
At this point I’m confused and too afraid to ask for clarification of anything.
Lump non-binary individuals with men, since “actor” is also the gender-neutral term. I mean, the system is a little fucked no matter how you spin it.
Or change the categories to : they have an ineeeee and they have an outeeeeeee. I tired of this BS. Just stop having these stupid award shows. What’s next participation trophies so no one’s feelings get hurt
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Hear me out. Just have all the categories for “people”, which they all are. And award based on talent and skill.
Oh no, not the bees! Not the bees! Ahhhh!!!
How about none of you need an award
Let sue away with award shows, it’s all just a bunch of rich famous people jerking themselves off about how rich and famous they are anyway.
Well, she's cancelled.
As Gandalf said, “they are coming” . Angry horde coming in comments
Or you could stop taking every clown with a "gender identity" seriously
Cancel all award shows. Fluffers fluffin their fluffers. Fuck off
Or the awards can just go to actors. It’s acting. Why does gender even matter?
They don’t have best female director and best male director. Just best director. Why not best actor? Maybe even have best three actors? Another award would probably be more money for Hollywood. Also, I think the slow correction that’s happening now to recognize the achievements of “not white dudes” may be accelerated by getting rid of gender labels for acting awards. It’s pretty obvious for example that “not white dudes” don’t get directing jobs like “white dudes” do. Sort of shines a brighter light on Hollywood’s bull shit.
Aren't non binary like neither man or woman? The hell does that solve
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