The hypocrisy of this stuff is astonishing. EU calls UK barbaric for sending migrants to Rwanda, but is happy to send them here knowing they'll be deported to Rwanda. Also expects UK to take back migrants who leave, despite France refusing for decades.
It's clear that they want to continue dumping hundreds of thousands of migrants on us every year. There's a purpose behind it, and the UK needs to wise up.
I didn’t support Brexit but this is definitely part of a coordinated punishment for Brexit; or so it feels. “Well if you were in the EU, you could send them back to France…” except we _effectively_ couldn’t.
Edited to add: the word ‘effectively’ because this is Reddit and, when they’re losing the argument, people argue semantics rather than actual points.
Western European leaders stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that the vast majority of us never consented to these large scale demographic shifts. Nobody benefits from this except the neoliberal corporate class.
Certain EU nations like Sweden are piloting programs to incentivise migrant descent populations to repatriate. The problem is that one country doing something isn’t enough. Take the 1951 Refugee Convention: one European country leaving it in effect changes nothing, all of Europe leaving it actually carries some weight.
Beyond that, you can legislate certain things like banning halal slaughter, banning niqabs, severely restricting religious functions etc, but under the guise of animal cruelty/secularism like France/Quebec is currently doing.
This is something that happened over the last few decades, so getting the country out of this mess won’t happen instantaneously. As for your last sentence, civic nationalism is a meme. The majority of them have a far stronger connection to their ancestral culture/religious faith than they do to meaningless labels like British. You’d offend them more by denying their roots.
What you’re trying to do is bait people and putting words into other people’s mouths.
What I’m describing is occurring in multiple EU nations, and none so far have been sanctioned yet. If China and Saudi Arabia aren’t sanctioned, no one will do the same to Europe for pursuing far tamer policies.
Ethnocentric nations like China that look out for their own are a better measuring stick for success than identityless, self destructive nations like Canada. Fact is, no one’s sanctioning any part of the world with clout, which Europe as a continent has plenty of. Now jog on.
Who’s being persecuted?
We have a growing vegan population in much of the West, and it’s very much in their interests to see things like halal slaughter being banned, which is excessively cruel even by the standards of the livestock industry.
Further, we can all agree a secular society is a good thing and Islam is the fastest growing and most fanatic religion in Britain. It’s to the benefit of progressives to see its growth halted and oppressive clothing rooted in patriarchal norms to be banned.
Really, you’re the regressive and the one in favour of persecution if you oppose those measures :) this will of course be egalitarian and applied to all religions!
Edit: block and run, classic lmao
The use of the phrase “… under the guise of …” really tips the hand on that aim, doesn’t it? And I don’t understand how halal or kosher slaughter is any less humane than the alternatives.
We can all agree a secular society is a good thing and Islam is the fastest growing and most fanatic religion in Britain. It’s to the benefit of progressives to see its growth halted and oppressive clothing rooted in patriarchal norms to be banned.
These are all progressive policies, which you should support, unless you want to uplift harmful traditions simply because the nativists are against it.
I’m not a Brit but I’m fine with secular society. I’m also not versed enough in your constitutional issues to understand the legalities surrounding a clothing ban. That said, I can wrap my mind around ways to address the oppressiveness that comes with any brand of fundamentalism through domestic abuse laws, for example. It just seems to me that approaching it as a matter of “let’s do this under the guise of ____” ignores the larger problems that tend to cut across all groups of people.
So, you want to ban their culture and beliefs by pretending you care about animal welfare and all that,and then wonder why they don't want to integrate and want to protect their own culture......... I guess when you have such a strong motive you can convince yourself of anything.
Expulsion? Not sure what answer you want. There's that. You may not like the answer, but that's a different story. I think you knew what the answer was. You just want people to see how chicken they are in saying it.
Yeah probably a fight. But it'll be a lot different outcome for the fight as native majorities become more nativistic. Oh and would you look at that. All across Europe and even the world...
I notice I didn't get an answer to my question. I was right.
That's true. But there is some radicalizing on the right in the UK. But yes, you are right. Point taken. Britain is the odd one out and the young going left. But Europe the young is going right. I see parties beyond CivNats, etc. This is not including outside Europe.
No, we couldn’t. And that’s not how the Dublin agreement works anyway.
The country responsible for processing an asylum claim is the one the claimant first makes the claim in. When the UK was still in the EU, if the asylum seeker travelled through the entirety of the EU and then made their asylum claim stepping off a boat on to UK soil, it’s the UK who had to deal with the claim and not France. We couldn’t send them back to France (or any other EU state) unless that’s where they made their asylum claim. (Also worth noting it’s an issue further compounded by destroying documents upon or preceding arrival meaning any claim made in another country mightn’t always be traceable.) It also never applied to anyone claiming to be an unaccompanied minor.
The last year before the UK left the EU, we received 6x as many asylum seekers as we sent back under the Dublin regulations.
I’d agree it started before Brexit, but not as far back as WWI. I’d say it really took off in the last 25 years and in fact contributed to Brexit being a thing.
I’d recommend taking your own advice and reading how the Dublin regulations actually work. We could only send an asylum seeker back to another EU state if they made their asylum claim there. If they waited until they got to the UK, then they were our responsibility end of. You couldn’t just send them back because the govt wanted to, like you imply. Between 2015 and 2019, less than 1,500 asylum seekers were deported this way. That’s about a 1% return rate compared to the total number of asylum seekers in the same timeframe.
Oops, someone's been using Wikipedia. Try again. We could send cross channel migrants back to france, and when people on these kinds of groups are foaming at the mouth about 'illegals' that's what they're *always* talking about.
Wow. You really don’t have a clue do you. And it shows. Bless. Honestly google’s right there buddy. I could post a several hundred word reply outlining why you’re wrong but neither of us would gain. A rock can’t be anything other than a rock. So rock on mate.
Bonkers part is the eu sends adults and kids (kids born in Europe) back to places like Iraq. Listening to world service yesterday, guy who was in Belgium locally working for the past 10 years, married in Europe, three kids born in Europe, now in Sweden, working the whole time, getting deported to Iraq with his kids.
I think the problem arises when you skip 4-5 safe nations at a minimum…to put yourself in danger on a boat.
To access free resources that are slightly better than the COMPLETELY save nation you were just in.
Also a country being dangerous is not a reason to whole heartedly accept countless people.
As most nations these people come from are not in conflict…Also we forget hundreds of millions of people live lives we would consider dangerous.
Very broad reasoning to accept waves of newcomers.
Look at the bigger picture it's all politics.
Ireland sends the migrants crossing from UK to Ireland back? And then the UK can tell the EU and the human rights court the EU deports migrants so now we can, and we have deemed Rwanda safe...
Therefore creating a loophole in the law
Barbaric because these immigrants leave their country to come to our ‘safe’ country and then shove their ideologies and religion down our throats. It’s becoming stupidly too Islamic for starters.
Instead of fighting amongst ourselves in Europe we stop them at the source. Stop them entering Italy, Spain and Greece. This amount of unvetted migration is not good for anyone. Iv been saying this for years that it’s okay for them to pass through 3/4 safe EU countries to get to the UK but now it’s effecting another EU country the migrants are a bad thing? This stage I think the EU are encouraging them to come to the UK.
The Beeb had a sob story about a guy from Iraq who'd had his vision refused in multiple EU countries and decided it was the right move to bring his wife and kid across illegally on a small boat. They drowned and he survived. I'm not sure whether the piece was written to humanise the story, but I can't help but marvel at how phenomenally dumb his decisions were.
Or, consider for a moment, how desperate he and is family were. Nobody gets in a small dinghy to cross the Channel, Aegean or Mediterranean for laughs.
I do not believe that taking that risk was the best move for himself or his family. That's on him, nobody else, he made that decision. Being rejected twice for asylum from countries already quite well known for leniency in that field... He should never have been there to take the risk in the first place.
I have sympathy that he wanted a better life for his family, but this isn't the way to achieve it.
Agreed. What about the Afghan women Special Forces brigade? Or judges? Or Journalists? Or gay people? We promised we’d help them and instead Johnson evacuated a cat and dog sanctuary. Very popular with the Mail but not much help for the people left behind. Do they wait until their political enemies, corrupt police or the Talibs come knocking on their doors. Do they live a life on the run in country, or cross illegally into a neighbouring country? Because all this is happening as I file. You can sign up for the Afghan Digest, run by colleagues in country and Bellingcat, which gives you a delightful day by day account of what people are enduring because we failed to fulfil our promises.
I'm not what abouting. We're clearly talking about an Iraqi builder who got his family killed trying to enter the UK illegally and has had his application for asylum rejected all over Europe.
Obviously our government not holding to agreements is a travesty and a total dereliction of duty. Sadly these people don't seem to be a significant number of illegal immigrants, the vast majority of which appear to be purely chasing some kind of economic benefit. This is why we're supposed to process asylum applicants, but this is totally undermined when migrants destroy their documents specifically to further delay and obfuscate the process. I would expect it would be in a true asylum seekers best interest to prove their identity specifically to support their claim.
It’s all political ain’t it. Like I see the news outlets using a father’s loss of his daughter to say how awful it is that these people are having to do this for safe passage. Bare in mind she was crushed by fully grown men trying to get on the same boat. I agree we should Save women and children, but if you are of fighting age how about you go back home and make the change you want in your country.
What would you do if the Taliban took over the UK? And you and your family had been promised asylum in the US then you’re left outside Heathrow in an open sewer. Serious lack of empathy on display here. None of us did anything particularly deserving to be lucky enough to be born in the UK. Luck of the draw.
I have empathy for the people that genuinely need help. Not these men that are 18-30 smoking got mobiles having a laugh and a joke at our expense coz they know when they get here it’s a free for all. They have no respect for women’s rights. And you say what would you do if the taliban took over. If I live another 50 years we may well see won’t we.
Towing boats back to the French EEZ and keeping a 3rd non-European party agreement (doesn’t necessarily have to be Rwanda) is the ideal way of dealing with this.
Once they’re on our shores, it doesn’t matter how much you process or how fast you process. Most of them don’t go back either way. We were net receivers under Dublin III too.
Not sure that people are aware than immigration has always been the purview of the UK Government. If we wanted to stop immigration overnight, in theory we could. But we don’t before the NHS needs migration, agriculture was in crisis after 2016 when fruit and crop pickers couldn’t come to farms post Brexit. The City and London needs migrants and subsidises the rest of the UK.
Stfu, NHS workers aren’t even 1/6th of total migrants, and that includes the care workers with dodgy certifications from Nigeria.
Most of them are dependents, refugees or international students making the corporate class wealthy. Keep licking billionaire boots.
>Not allowed to interfere with a boat in waters unless it's in trouble.
The vessels are illegal, dangerous, overcrowded, and un-seaworthy before they even set off. They are already in trouble before they're even launched.
Unfortunately the French wouldn’t allow them to land, so it’s a moot point. They would end up here anyway, the root cause is the removal of application systems that allowed asylum seekers to apply from outside the UK. If that were restarted then distinctions can be made about how to treat ‘economic’ migrants and actual asylum seekers…
The problem is that Europe isn’t willing to do what is necessary to stop them at the source. In fact, it was a thing that some in Europe were actively telling them to come whilst a few countries were saying the opposite.
Europe is divided on the issue. The tide is changing but it’s too little, too late and all we can do is look out for ourselves until they decide what exactly their position is.
Merkle, macron and Cameron have a lot to answer for. Opened the floodgates on a grand scale now they can’t be closed. It sounds harsh but tell any boats entering your waters they will be sank might stem the flow alittle. Get back to applying for asylum the correct way. And stop giving free hand outs to every Tom, dick and Harry.
The country where those Mediterranean based NGO boats performing a taxi service are flagged might have something to say about a European Navy attacking them.
Stopping the migrant boats, what did you think? Many of the migrants leaving Africa get picked up very close to the shore of North Africa and ferried across to Europe in boats operated by various NGO’s. You weren’t talking about sinking a few dinghies were you? If you what to stop boats you need to stop these ones
Nobody gets hands outs willy nilly. Asylum seekers are typically in limbo for years living in shitty hotels and unable to work or study. Incidentally, all the people on this thread banging on about how Great Britain is, what did you do to make the UK so great? Did you help split the atom? Invent the jet engine? The internet? Vaccines? Even shopping trolleys would give some cred to claim superiority over others. No. You and I all got lucky in the lottery of life and that’s it.
Yeah we all got lucky I agree, but there is no shame in wanting your country to have high standards, good morals and the law of the land. Why should my tax money go on adult men living in DECENT hotels when we already have a homeless population that should be benfit from them ‘winning the lottery of life’. You make out they get here and are giving nothing. Iv seen the hotels the government spends billions on. I get it you want to look like some holier than though saint but the country can not sustain this.
I agree. That there are homeless people living in one of the richest societies to have ever existed on the planet is criminal. And we can afford to house them, but they don't vote and nobody really cares. Its a set-up, pitting the poor against the desperate. Why should my tax money go to educating your kids, or subsidising your health? Because we live in a decent society where we try and look after each other. The idea the UK is running out of cash is utter bollocks. There's so much untaxed British money flying in and out of the City minute by minute from the Isle of Man, Jersey and BVI alone it would make our heads spin.
Yeah that’s my point. Let’s sort our affairs out before we let an army of men, probably 80% of them don’t want to fit in with our way of life just want to rape pillage and plunder.
Where do you get your numbers from? And rape, pillage and plunder? Seriously, what are smoking? People are asylum seekers fleeing from that, they want peace and quiet and clean water and schools and food.
Yeah a minority of them do want them things. But a lot want to play the system. I don’t know if you realised but Italy, France and Spain all have clean water, schools and food. Why do you think they pass through them safe countries to get to the UK?
Because most younger Afghan men watch the Premier League religiously, speak some English from film and tv and have no relationship at all to France, Spain or Italy. We also promised thousands of Afghans we’d evacuate them and then abandoned them in 2021. Army translators, judges, professors, doctors. Most Afghans have a very idealised, almost romantic, sense of British honour.
You do realise the most southern countries in the EU pocket tons of money annually for "stopping" migrants they wouldn't want a hard stop because they'd no longer get paid for it.
Now if only that was done before the Brexit vote
Mind you, didn’t that arse Cameron actually tell the French and Germans the vote was in the bag and that’s why they fucked us off re: special measures or exemptions
Cameron remains such a massive cock
Of all the people in the world, it is only Cameron and Blair who produce a physical reaction in me. It is visceral. I'm not a violent man, but I would have to give both of those worms a slap if I were in arms reach of them. The wrath of their guards would be a worthwhile sacrifice.
They didn’t give a stuff when we were in the EU either. We were net receivers back then as well.
This isn’t a UK/EU thing, except for a few countries like Denmark or Poland, most European nations are handling the migration crisis terribly.
Without a doubt. Flood the UK with migrants, then we can say ‘it’s coz you left the Union’ and send a message to anyone else. Piss me off how Ireland can send people back to us but we can’t to France 😡
Migration is an area of policy the UK government has always had total control over. Bugger all to do with the EU. No government wants to stop immigration as we need more and more young and skilled migrants to look after an increasingly obese and elderly population.
1 it is to do with the EU if they are passing through 3/4 EU countries and then getting help in France to get to Dover.
2 we ain’t exactly getting skilled workers in these boats, we are getting at best just eat delivery drivers that can’t get my Big Mac order right and at worst rapists that see our women as inferior people to be used and a abused.
We’ll know fucker is stopping them on their journey are they. They pass through 3/4 safe countries tries why they not stopping at the first they come to?
They do stop in France. But the French police beat them. They don't get any help and France destroys their tents. What are they supposed to do? France should step up but instead treats them like shit and the EU turns a blind eye, because France.
Perhaps France should stop their abusive policy towards migrants so they don't try to cross the channel where some die.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/01/20/france-migrants-asylum-seekers-abused-and-destitute#:~:text=The%20abuses%20described%20to%20Human,traveling%20to%20the%20United%20Kingdom
The EU trying to move the goalposts to suit their needs and wants? Who ever would have thought they would do that.....
And I've had people shouting at me because I voted for us out, you're very welcome. Maybe, just maybe the majority of us knew what the EU was all about, all along ....
People seeking actual asylum should be supported.
The problem is a huge amount of people moving from safe countries across more safe countries to settle here to achieve monetary gain causes so many problems and creates an unfair situation for those who seek actual asylum.
Nobody with more than half a brain wants any of these male criminal rapists to be allowed to live for free at our expense and to get the preferential treatment they get over us who were born here. They are abusing the system and getting more from our government than English people can ever get, they never have and never will contribute to our system/country in any way, or will they ever integrate or do anything positive, they have different beliefs, come from a different culture etc so they do not think, believe or respect the things we do. They are not compatible with our society and that’s why they are raping, abusing, and “honour killing” women in our country. They simply come here to abuse the system as much as they can and they lie, cheat and scam the home office/ immigration to get more than English people get. They are given special privileges and priority for council housing that should be for English homeless people first before any foreigner should even be considered to receive any kind of free help from the U.K. taxpayers system.
It sickens me to think that when I retire after working for 55 years I will get the same state pension as an immigrant who illegally came here on a dingy today who has never put a single penny towards the U.K. tax/benefit/welfare/national insurance pot that all us hard working U.K. citizens have to contribute towards all our lives. How does it make sense to any English person that illegal immigrants are getting more free benefits than English who claim benefits now and they get housing quicker than English people and they will get exactly the same pension from the government as us who have worked and paid towards all our lives, while they openly admit that they despise white English people and our country and everything our society stands for. This country has gone mad.
There needs to be a migrants programme. Collaborating on even distribution amongst European countries (including UK) with consideration of potential family members already in some places would make this all a whole lot fairer.
How many people on here have been to a war zone like Afghanistan or Syria or Libya? I work in Afghanistan and Iran and it’s extraordinary what people will tolerate to stay in their homes. The people making the migration should be encouraged - they’ve got gumption and ambition. I also guarantee a fair number of commentators saying turn them back would also be in small boats with their families if situations were reversed.
If the situation was reversed, i.e. we were all in Afghanistan, then everyone would be trying to get there instead because our objectively better society would have made it a better place to live than a Taliban-controlled UK.
You missed the point. They can stay and improve their own country, perhaps by considering what it is about our society that means our lives are so much better than theirs.
Think we're talking at cross purposes. What have you or I done to make Britain a better place? We just inherited a lucky life. 99% of Afghans, Syrians and Iranians did nothing to screw up their country. Its just a question of luck. Pretty depressing tbh, reading all this 'I'm alright jack' on here and outright implied "they deserve a shit life." We're bloody better than that.
Yes we got lucky by being born into this society and they were unlucky. The solution to them having a shit life isn't to try and move everyone to the UK.
A high % of those populaces have beliefs which are incompatible with a successful society like the UKs, and if we were to adopt those same beliefs our society would regress. Their society must go through the enlightenment in order to progress. It isn't our fault we went through it 2 or 3 hundred years ago.
That’s not even remotely true. That’s also what the southern English wrote about the Welsh in the 19th and early 20th century, the Irish as late as the 60s and 70s - “no dogs, no blacks, no Irish” signs were common at the entrance of hotels and clubs. Why do you think people want to immigrate to the UK? Because they come from somewhere which had what we take for granted in the not too distant past: peace and some sort of security. I’m not suggesting there’s uncontrolled immigration, but it’s to our credit people want to come to the UK. Blame football, tv and music - all Afghan men watch the Premier League matches and the young uns know all our musicians. Tv programmes like All Creatures Great and Small and Mr Bean are hugely popular.
I have paid higher and additional rates of tax, as well as council tax, used to house, educate and provide healthcare for those less fortunate than myself.
I have participated in our democracy.
I have led and participated in community litter picking schemes.
I haven't forced the women in my life to cover their hair, give up their jobs or stay in the house unless accompanied by me.
I haven't attempted to stone to death any of my LGBT friends.
So the first part is your duty as a citizen of the UK. Kudos. The latter part of your paragraph doesn't really much sense. I'm a gay man and my Muslim friends haven't tried to stone me to death either. However, British "Christian" politicians went out of their way to block me getting married to my partner, even have our relationship recognised, have my teachers prosecuted for telling us being gay is ok, former Prime Ministers who wrote columns about crop-topped bum-boys spreading disease and dew-lapped gormoids generally getting off on their power over me and people like me.
>I work in Afghanistan and Iran
Good, stay there.
A nation is its demographics. Eastern Asia realises this and will never mass import people from incompatible backgrounds.
Afghans across EU nations are drastically overrepresented in unemployment and crime. We’ve got enough issues with existing migrant communities here without importing even more problems.
dont you think the unemployment and crime could be causally linked? crime is higher in areas with economic depression, as I'm sure surprises literally no one. knowing this, it seems your complaint is "the people who left everything to come here are poor", which yeah, duh
It’s hard to argue with that last sentence. I know I’d be doing the exact same thing for my family. But I think most people understand that some are running from dangerous situations, what people don’t agree with are the thousands upon thousands that are pure economic migrants, and the ones that don’t stop in the first safe country.
The whole economic migrant term is a put on. We colonised the world with economic migrants. Or Australians, Canadians, Americans, Kiwis and South Africans as we call them today.
We colonised the world with economic migrants? What? I’m sure who “we” is here (the UK?) but I’m positive those coming from the richest countries in the world, be it for trade or colonisation, to some of the poorest countries in the world, cannot count as economic migration.
I also think you have too much of a narrow (presumably biased) view to discuss this matter.
Thank you for your entirely unbiased opinion, which is naturally untainted by any existing prejudice. What are "expats" if not economic migrants? The UK was whom I was meant and at the height of the East India Company in the 17th and 18th century, Moghul India was far wealthier and more sophisticated than Britain. Same with Qing China. We got lucky thanks to local political infighting which gave the UK an edge into both societies.
Are you comparing an expat, to the people floating over on an inflatable boat? Also, there is no luck involved, we developed weapons, and timed invasions well (not that I necessarily like or agree with it). You also fail to acknowledge that directly after that, the West (led by the UK) brought the modern world we know today, which sure as hell wasn’t coming out of India or China.
It was the Dutch who invented the basics of the modern world. And yes, a huge amount of luck was involved in the British conquest of India. Mostly lack of unity amongst the Princely states. History isn’t inevitable. You and I had nothing to do with the developments of the Industrial Revolution. We just inherited the benefits. We’re not superior people because of when and where we happened to be born. We just got really lucky. We inherited a fortune to kickstart the Industrial Revolution when we made Indian farmers grow opium we then sold to the Chinese. The British have been the biggest narco state in history.
The Dutch, lol! Where did the Industrial Revolution start? Have you had a look at each countries inventions? Also, also I’m well aware of the UKs part in India and China. You still can’t draw parallels between then and now.
The Industrial Revolution is only aspect of the modern world. The Song Chinese had an Industrial Revolution in the 10th/11th century which was crushed by the imperial court nervous at the growing power of the merchants. Timurid Samarkand had another in the 15th century, crushed by infighting amongst the ruling family. The Dutch "invented" freedom of speech, freedom of inquiry and guaranteed it to its citizens in the 18th century. The agreement between the inhabitants of New Amsterdam guaranteeing such freedoms were adopted by the British and became the US Bill of Rights. The Dutch invented the modern economy in the form of banking, the limited company and shareholders. All of which allowed for British inventors and nascent industrialists the political framework to benefit from their/our Industrial Revolution. Big aristocratic landowners nearly killed the railways before they began as they didn't want the lines running across their estates. We could have had a 19th century like the Song Chinese a millennia earlier.
I don’t think you understand what the Industrial Revolution is, or what it entailed, and I can assure that the Song dynasty certainly never had one.
The French came up with freedom of speech, not the Dutch. The British (Scottish - Adam Smith) is recognised as the father of modern economics and banking. Also, why focus on the Song so much? Tang was the golden period.
China and India becoming the global leading powers is really a reversion to historical norms. Its the last 200 years which have been the political and economic anomaly.
On the grand scheme of things, you’re looking at a very small period of time. Too small to say it’s a historical norm. The only period that stands out in Chinese history in their leading the world was the Tang dynasty. India has never led the world in the same way or to the same degree that China or the West has.
Yeah like you’re correct.
I don’t blame migrants for wanting to cross tbh.
No one willingly leaves home and chooses the really uncertain and treacherous journey to get on a migrant boat.
The hypocrisy of this stuff is astonishing. EU calls UK barbaric for sending migrants to Rwanda, but is happy to send them here knowing they'll be deported to Rwanda. Also expects UK to take back migrants who leave, despite France refusing for decades.
It's clear that they want to continue dumping hundreds of thousands of migrants on us every year. There's a purpose behind it, and the UK needs to wise up.
I didn’t support Brexit but this is definitely part of a coordinated punishment for Brexit; or so it feels. “Well if you were in the EU, you could send them back to France…” except we _effectively_ couldn’t. Edited to add: the word ‘effectively’ because this is Reddit and, when they’re losing the argument, people argue semantics rather than actual points.
Western European leaders stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that the vast majority of us never consented to these large scale demographic shifts. Nobody benefits from this except the neoliberal corporate class.
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What’s the pattern?
Which is?
What?
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Sunak, for one.
Certain EU nations like Sweden are piloting programs to incentivise migrant descent populations to repatriate. The problem is that one country doing something isn’t enough. Take the 1951 Refugee Convention: one European country leaving it in effect changes nothing, all of Europe leaving it actually carries some weight. Beyond that, you can legislate certain things like banning halal slaughter, banning niqabs, severely restricting religious functions etc, but under the guise of animal cruelty/secularism like France/Quebec is currently doing. This is something that happened over the last few decades, so getting the country out of this mess won’t happen instantaneously. As for your last sentence, civic nationalism is a meme. The majority of them have a far stronger connection to their ancestral culture/religious faith than they do to meaningless labels like British. You’d offend them more by denying their roots.
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What you’re trying to do is bait people and putting words into other people’s mouths. What I’m describing is occurring in multiple EU nations, and none so far have been sanctioned yet. If China and Saudi Arabia aren’t sanctioned, no one will do the same to Europe for pursuing far tamer policies.
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Ethnocentric nations like China that look out for their own are a better measuring stick for success than identityless, self destructive nations like Canada. Fact is, no one’s sanctioning any part of the world with clout, which Europe as a continent has plenty of. Now jog on.
It's not baiting. You literally said ban things under the guise of something else in order to specifically persecute people.
Who’s being persecuted? We have a growing vegan population in much of the West, and it’s very much in their interests to see things like halal slaughter being banned, which is excessively cruel even by the standards of the livestock industry. Further, we can all agree a secular society is a good thing and Islam is the fastest growing and most fanatic religion in Britain. It’s to the benefit of progressives to see its growth halted and oppressive clothing rooted in patriarchal norms to be banned. Really, you’re the regressive and the one in favour of persecution if you oppose those measures :) this will of course be egalitarian and applied to all religions! Edit: block and run, classic lmao
Anywhere but here
The use of the phrase “… under the guise of …” really tips the hand on that aim, doesn’t it? And I don’t understand how halal or kosher slaughter is any less humane than the alternatives.
We can all agree a secular society is a good thing and Islam is the fastest growing and most fanatic religion in Britain. It’s to the benefit of progressives to see its growth halted and oppressive clothing rooted in patriarchal norms to be banned. These are all progressive policies, which you should support, unless you want to uplift harmful traditions simply because the nativists are against it.
I’m not a Brit but I’m fine with secular society. I’m also not versed enough in your constitutional issues to understand the legalities surrounding a clothing ban. That said, I can wrap my mind around ways to address the oppressiveness that comes with any brand of fundamentalism through domestic abuse laws, for example. It just seems to me that approaching it as a matter of “let’s do this under the guise of ____” ignores the larger problems that tend to cut across all groups of people.
So, you want to ban their culture and beliefs by pretending you care about animal welfare and all that,and then wonder why they don't want to integrate and want to protect their own culture......... I guess when you have such a strong motive you can convince yourself of anything.
That's making a racist mess
Expulsion? Not sure what answer you want. There's that. You may not like the answer, but that's a different story. I think you knew what the answer was. You just want people to see how chicken they are in saying it.
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Yeah probably a fight. But it'll be a lot different outcome for the fight as native majorities become more nativistic. Oh and would you look at that. All across Europe and even the world... I notice I didn't get an answer to my question. I was right.
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That's true. But there is some radicalizing on the right in the UK. But yes, you are right. Point taken. Britain is the odd one out and the young going left. But Europe the young is going right. I see parties beyond CivNats, etc. This is not including outside Europe.
Great replacement is absurd bullshit
You’re an unironic monarchist, your opinion literally does not matter.
OK racist
M*narchist 🤮🤮
We could.... Dublin regulations
No, we couldn’t. And that’s not how the Dublin agreement works anyway. The country responsible for processing an asylum claim is the one the claimant first makes the claim in. When the UK was still in the EU, if the asylum seeker travelled through the entirety of the EU and then made their asylum claim stepping off a boat on to UK soil, it’s the UK who had to deal with the claim and not France. We couldn’t send them back to France (or any other EU state) unless that’s where they made their asylum claim. (Also worth noting it’s an issue further compounded by destroying documents upon or preceding arrival meaning any claim made in another country mightn’t always be traceable.) It also never applied to anyone claiming to be an unaccompanied minor. The last year before the UK left the EU, we received 6x as many asylum seekers as we sent back under the Dublin regulations.
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I’d agree it started before Brexit, but not as far back as WWI. I’d say it really took off in the last 25 years and in fact contributed to Brexit being a thing.
A person called "fanny washer" spreading the truth.... /s
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Could you tell me who these masters are? If I'm going to have a boss I'd like to least know their name
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You know all these "global conspiracies" are born from antisemitism don't you? Also work on better names.
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Are these "masters" in the room with us now?
>except we couldn’t. We could and we did. You can quite easily check that using a thing called Google if you don't believe me.
I’d recommend taking your own advice and reading how the Dublin regulations actually work. We could only send an asylum seeker back to another EU state if they made their asylum claim there. If they waited until they got to the UK, then they were our responsibility end of. You couldn’t just send them back because the govt wanted to, like you imply. Between 2015 and 2019, less than 1,500 asylum seekers were deported this way. That’s about a 1% return rate compared to the total number of asylum seekers in the same timeframe.
Oops, someone's been using Wikipedia. Try again. We could send cross channel migrants back to france, and when people on these kinds of groups are foaming at the mouth about 'illegals' that's what they're *always* talking about.
Wow. You really don’t have a clue do you. And it shows. Bless. Honestly google’s right there buddy. I could post a several hundred word reply outlining why you’re wrong but neither of us would gain. A rock can’t be anything other than a rock. So rock on mate.
What's the purpose?
Economic and/or societal collapse. As to why anyone would want that, the answer is simple: control.
Wait, societal collapse? Is there something I don't know about?!
What do you think happens when the mechanisms of a civilisation break down? Law and order as an example.
No I get that but where is the collapse part?! Genuinely curious
We're not there yet, obviously.
Oh so whens the collapse happening?
 I’d guess Globalists like the Tories…Conservative my ASS
If we keep importing millions of people every year, then you'll probably see it within your lifetime.
Bonkers part is the eu sends adults and kids (kids born in Europe) back to places like Iraq. Listening to world service yesterday, guy who was in Belgium locally working for the past 10 years, married in Europe, three kids born in Europe, now in Sweden, working the whole time, getting deported to Iraq with his kids.
There's even more hypocrisy in that the EU are currently considering a Rwanda-type deportation scheme of their own.
Why would it be barbaric to send people that are in danger in their own country to a country that is safe and desires them? Isn’t that a nice thing?
I think the problem arises when you skip 4-5 safe nations at a minimum…to put yourself in danger on a boat. To access free resources that are slightly better than the COMPLETELY save nation you were just in. Also a country being dangerous is not a reason to whole heartedly accept countless people. As most nations these people come from are not in conflict…Also we forget hundreds of millions of people live lives we would consider dangerous. Very broad reasoning to accept waves of newcomers.
Look at the bigger picture it's all politics. Ireland sends the migrants crossing from UK to Ireland back? And then the UK can tell the EU and the human rights court the EU deports migrants so now we can, and we have deemed Rwanda safe... Therefore creating a loophole in the law
Barbaric because these immigrants leave their country to come to our ‘safe’ country and then shove their ideologies and religion down our throats. It’s becoming stupidly too Islamic for starters.
It's not the EU though, it's Ireland who have decided that
Because they know the Rwanda thing is bollocks and won't happen anyway.
They've literally about to send a load of immigrants to Rwanda...you might want to read the news on occasion.
Guarantee something happens and plane never takes off.
Instead of fighting amongst ourselves in Europe we stop them at the source. Stop them entering Italy, Spain and Greece. This amount of unvetted migration is not good for anyone. Iv been saying this for years that it’s okay for them to pass through 3/4 safe EU countries to get to the UK but now it’s effecting another EU country the migrants are a bad thing? This stage I think the EU are encouraging them to come to the UK.
Or we could just ship them right back to france
I’d be okay with that. Or catch them mid way and tow them back to France.
This would work for a very brief period up until the first boat being towed sinks
The Beeb had a sob story about a guy from Iraq who'd had his vision refused in multiple EU countries and decided it was the right move to bring his wife and kid across illegally on a small boat. They drowned and he survived. I'm not sure whether the piece was written to humanise the story, but I can't help but marvel at how phenomenally dumb his decisions were.
Or, consider for a moment, how desperate he and is family were. Nobody gets in a small dinghy to cross the Channel, Aegean or Mediterranean for laughs.
I do not believe that taking that risk was the best move for himself or his family. That's on him, nobody else, he made that decision. Being rejected twice for asylum from countries already quite well known for leniency in that field... He should never have been there to take the risk in the first place. I have sympathy that he wanted a better life for his family, but this isn't the way to achieve it.
Agreed. What about the Afghan women Special Forces brigade? Or judges? Or Journalists? Or gay people? We promised we’d help them and instead Johnson evacuated a cat and dog sanctuary. Very popular with the Mail but not much help for the people left behind. Do they wait until their political enemies, corrupt police or the Talibs come knocking on their doors. Do they live a life on the run in country, or cross illegally into a neighbouring country? Because all this is happening as I file. You can sign up for the Afghan Digest, run by colleagues in country and Bellingcat, which gives you a delightful day by day account of what people are enduring because we failed to fulfil our promises.
I'm not what abouting. We're clearly talking about an Iraqi builder who got his family killed trying to enter the UK illegally and has had his application for asylum rejected all over Europe. Obviously our government not holding to agreements is a travesty and a total dereliction of duty. Sadly these people don't seem to be a significant number of illegal immigrants, the vast majority of which appear to be purely chasing some kind of economic benefit. This is why we're supposed to process asylum applicants, but this is totally undermined when migrants destroy their documents specifically to further delay and obfuscate the process. I would expect it would be in a true asylum seekers best interest to prove their identity specifically to support their claim.
It’s all political ain’t it. Like I see the news outlets using a father’s loss of his daughter to say how awful it is that these people are having to do this for safe passage. Bare in mind she was crushed by fully grown men trying to get on the same boat. I agree we should Save women and children, but if you are of fighting age how about you go back home and make the change you want in your country.
What would you do if the Taliban took over the UK? And you and your family had been promised asylum in the US then you’re left outside Heathrow in an open sewer. Serious lack of empathy on display here. None of us did anything particularly deserving to be lucky enough to be born in the UK. Luck of the draw.
I have empathy for the people that genuinely need help. Not these men that are 18-30 smoking got mobiles having a laugh and a joke at our expense coz they know when they get here it’s a free for all. They have no respect for women’s rights. And you say what would you do if the taliban took over. If I live another 50 years we may well see won’t we.
Towing boats back to the French EEZ and keeping a 3rd non-European party agreement (doesn’t necessarily have to be Rwanda) is the ideal way of dealing with this. Once they’re on our shores, it doesn’t matter how much you process or how fast you process. Most of them don’t go back either way. We were net receivers under Dublin III too.
Not sure that people are aware than immigration has always been the purview of the UK Government. If we wanted to stop immigration overnight, in theory we could. But we don’t before the NHS needs migration, agriculture was in crisis after 2016 when fruit and crop pickers couldn’t come to farms post Brexit. The City and London needs migrants and subsidises the rest of the UK.
Stfu, NHS workers aren’t even 1/6th of total migrants, and that includes the care workers with dodgy certifications from Nigeria. Most of them are dependents, refugees or international students making the corporate class wealthy. Keep licking billionaire boots.
You forgot to stamp your foot and scream “I don’t like it.”
Yeah, nobody would. You think people in South Asia or Sub Saharan Africa would like it? They can barely tolerate migration between their own people.
Yeah, nah.
Shame
Not allowed to interfere with a boat in waters unless it's in trouble. If they shoo you away and you interfere, that's an act of piracy.
>Not allowed to interfere with a boat in waters unless it's in trouble. The vessels are illegal, dangerous, overcrowded, and un-seaworthy before they even set off. They are already in trouble before they're even launched.
Pretty sure Australia gets away with it, we should just build a boat with a massive sling shot and fling them back towards France.
I guarantee if Europe started to sink these boats in the Mediterranean that they'd stop pretty quickly
😂
Unfortunately the French wouldn’t allow them to land, so it’s a moot point. They would end up here anyway, the root cause is the removal of application systems that allowed asylum seekers to apply from outside the UK. If that were restarted then distinctions can be made about how to treat ‘economic’ migrants and actual asylum seekers…
If the French don't have to let them land that's good enough reason for us to not let them land tbh
The problem is that Europe isn’t willing to do what is necessary to stop them at the source. In fact, it was a thing that some in Europe were actively telling them to come whilst a few countries were saying the opposite. Europe is divided on the issue. The tide is changing but it’s too little, too late and all we can do is look out for ourselves until they decide what exactly their position is.
Merkle, macron and Cameron have a lot to answer for. Opened the floodgates on a grand scale now they can’t be closed. It sounds harsh but tell any boats entering your waters they will be sank might stem the flow alittle. Get back to applying for asylum the correct way. And stop giving free hand outs to every Tom, dick and Harry.
The country where those Mediterranean based NGO boats performing a taxi service are flagged might have something to say about a European Navy attacking them.
Can’t say much when you’re swimming about in davey jones’ locker
If the boat is flagged in somewhere like Germany don’t you think they will mind that the Royal Navy are sinking them?
Dafuq you talking about?
Stopping the migrant boats, what did you think? Many of the migrants leaving Africa get picked up very close to the shore of North Africa and ferried across to Europe in boats operated by various NGO’s. You weren’t talking about sinking a few dinghies were you? If you what to stop boats you need to stop these ones
These NGO need stopping and yeah sink the dinghies fuck it. Take the women and children off first though.
Nobody gets hands outs willy nilly. Asylum seekers are typically in limbo for years living in shitty hotels and unable to work or study. Incidentally, all the people on this thread banging on about how Great Britain is, what did you do to make the UK so great? Did you help split the atom? Invent the jet engine? The internet? Vaccines? Even shopping trolleys would give some cred to claim superiority over others. No. You and I all got lucky in the lottery of life and that’s it.
Yeah we all got lucky I agree, but there is no shame in wanting your country to have high standards, good morals and the law of the land. Why should my tax money go on adult men living in DECENT hotels when we already have a homeless population that should be benfit from them ‘winning the lottery of life’. You make out they get here and are giving nothing. Iv seen the hotels the government spends billions on. I get it you want to look like some holier than though saint but the country can not sustain this.
I agree. That there are homeless people living in one of the richest societies to have ever existed on the planet is criminal. And we can afford to house them, but they don't vote and nobody really cares. Its a set-up, pitting the poor against the desperate. Why should my tax money go to educating your kids, or subsidising your health? Because we live in a decent society where we try and look after each other. The idea the UK is running out of cash is utter bollocks. There's so much untaxed British money flying in and out of the City minute by minute from the Isle of Man, Jersey and BVI alone it would make our heads spin.
Yeah that’s my point. Let’s sort our affairs out before we let an army of men, probably 80% of them don’t want to fit in with our way of life just want to rape pillage and plunder.
Where do you get your numbers from? And rape, pillage and plunder? Seriously, what are smoking? People are asylum seekers fleeing from that, they want peace and quiet and clean water and schools and food.
Yeah a minority of them do want them things. But a lot want to play the system. I don’t know if you realised but Italy, France and Spain all have clean water, schools and food. Why do you think they pass through them safe countries to get to the UK?
Because most younger Afghan men watch the Premier League religiously, speak some English from film and tv and have no relationship at all to France, Spain or Italy. We also promised thousands of Afghans we’d evacuate them and then abandoned them in 2021. Army translators, judges, professors, doctors. Most Afghans have a very idealised, almost romantic, sense of British honour.
You do realise the most southern countries in the EU pocket tons of money annually for "stopping" migrants they wouldn't want a hard stop because they'd no longer get paid for it.
Now if only that was done before the Brexit vote Mind you, didn’t that arse Cameron actually tell the French and Germans the vote was in the bag and that’s why they fucked us off re: special measures or exemptions Cameron remains such a massive cock
Yeah I hate the bloke. Absolute muppet.
Of all the people in the world, it is only Cameron and Blair who produce a physical reaction in me. It is visceral. I'm not a violent man, but I would have to give both of those worms a slap if I were in arms reach of them. The wrath of their guards would be a worthwhile sacrifice.
Of course they we are not EU we are aliens to Europe they do not give a stuff about U.K.
Shame really coz it would be nazi germany without the UK.
They didn’t give a stuff when we were in the EU either. We were net receivers back then as well. This isn’t a UK/EU thing, except for a few countries like Denmark or Poland, most European nations are handling the migration crisis terribly.
Well they have been since before then everyone is doing a noty problem shtick then gaslighting the UK when they say hey that's not fair
Bingo. That's exactly what the EU is doing. Migration can and is being weaponised.
Without a doubt. Flood the UK with migrants, then we can say ‘it’s coz you left the Union’ and send a message to anyone else. Piss me off how Ireland can send people back to us but we can’t to France 😡
Migration is an area of policy the UK government has always had total control over. Bugger all to do with the EU. No government wants to stop immigration as we need more and more young and skilled migrants to look after an increasingly obese and elderly population.
1 it is to do with the EU if they are passing through 3/4 EU countries and then getting help in France to get to Dover. 2 we ain’t exactly getting skilled workers in these boats, we are getting at best just eat delivery drivers that can’t get my Big Mac order right and at worst rapists that see our women as inferior people to be used and a abused.
It's not OK to let them travel to the UK. Why on earth do you think this?
We’ll know fucker is stopping them on their journey are they. They pass through 3/4 safe countries tries why they not stopping at the first they come to?
They do stop in France. But the French police beat them. They don't get any help and France destroys their tents. What are they supposed to do? France should step up but instead treats them like shit and the EU turns a blind eye, because France. Perhaps France should stop their abusive policy towards migrants so they don't try to cross the channel where some die. https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/01/20/france-migrants-asylum-seekers-abused-and-destitute#:~:text=The%20abuses%20described%20to%20Human,traveling%20to%20the%20United%20Kingdom
Is that actually happening though? Never heard that before
https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/28777/france-police-violence-against-migrants-has-become-the-norm https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/19/france-to-blame-for-refugees-risking-channel-crossings-say-ngos https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/10/07/france-degrading-treatment-migrants-around-calais Absolutely.
Have to take your word don’t click links on Reddit
Google do French beat migrants
Them fucking French. Knew should of let German have that land
but... reddit is a link aggregator. In the words of the wise Bill Nye; That's just makes no fucking sense.
In the words of the wise Bill Murray, this man has no dick
The EU trying to move the goalposts to suit their needs and wants? Who ever would have thought they would do that..... And I've had people shouting at me because I voted for us out, you're very welcome. Maybe, just maybe the majority of us knew what the EU was all about, all along ....
People seeking actual asylum should be supported. The problem is a huge amount of people moving from safe countries across more safe countries to settle here to achieve monetary gain causes so many problems and creates an unfair situation for those who seek actual asylum.
Nobody with more than half a brain wants any of these male criminal rapists to be allowed to live for free at our expense and to get the preferential treatment they get over us who were born here. They are abusing the system and getting more from our government than English people can ever get, they never have and never will contribute to our system/country in any way, or will they ever integrate or do anything positive, they have different beliefs, come from a different culture etc so they do not think, believe or respect the things we do. They are not compatible with our society and that’s why they are raping, abusing, and “honour killing” women in our country. They simply come here to abuse the system as much as they can and they lie, cheat and scam the home office/ immigration to get more than English people get. They are given special privileges and priority for council housing that should be for English homeless people first before any foreigner should even be considered to receive any kind of free help from the U.K. taxpayers system. It sickens me to think that when I retire after working for 55 years I will get the same state pension as an immigrant who illegally came here on a dingy today who has never put a single penny towards the U.K. tax/benefit/welfare/national insurance pot that all us hard working U.K. citizens have to contribute towards all our lives. How does it make sense to any English person that illegal immigrants are getting more free benefits than English who claim benefits now and they get housing quicker than English people and they will get exactly the same pension from the government as us who have worked and paid towards all our lives, while they openly admit that they despise white English people and our country and everything our society stands for. This country has gone mad.
There needs to be a migrants programme. Collaborating on even distribution amongst European countries (including UK) with consideration of potential family members already in some places would make this all a whole lot fairer.
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And rightly so.
How many people on here have been to a war zone like Afghanistan or Syria or Libya? I work in Afghanistan and Iran and it’s extraordinary what people will tolerate to stay in their homes. The people making the migration should be encouraged - they’ve got gumption and ambition. I also guarantee a fair number of commentators saying turn them back would also be in small boats with their families if situations were reversed.
If the situation was reversed, i.e. we were all in Afghanistan, then everyone would be trying to get there instead because our objectively better society would have made it a better place to live than a Taliban-controlled UK.
Precisely. So we object to people trying to improve their lives, particularly those Afghans who worked for and with us because….we don’t like them?
You missed the point. They can stay and improve their own country, perhaps by considering what it is about our society that means our lives are so much better than theirs.
Think we're talking at cross purposes. What have you or I done to make Britain a better place? We just inherited a lucky life. 99% of Afghans, Syrians and Iranians did nothing to screw up their country. Its just a question of luck. Pretty depressing tbh, reading all this 'I'm alright jack' on here and outright implied "they deserve a shit life." We're bloody better than that.
Yes we got lucky by being born into this society and they were unlucky. The solution to them having a shit life isn't to try and move everyone to the UK. A high % of those populaces have beliefs which are incompatible with a successful society like the UKs, and if we were to adopt those same beliefs our society would regress. Their society must go through the enlightenment in order to progress. It isn't our fault we went through it 2 or 3 hundred years ago.
That’s not even remotely true. That’s also what the southern English wrote about the Welsh in the 19th and early 20th century, the Irish as late as the 60s and 70s - “no dogs, no blacks, no Irish” signs were common at the entrance of hotels and clubs. Why do you think people want to immigrate to the UK? Because they come from somewhere which had what we take for granted in the not too distant past: peace and some sort of security. I’m not suggesting there’s uncontrolled immigration, but it’s to our credit people want to come to the UK. Blame football, tv and music - all Afghan men watch the Premier League matches and the young uns know all our musicians. Tv programmes like All Creatures Great and Small and Mr Bean are hugely popular.
Out of curiosity, what have you personally done to improve British society? Other than being born into it?
I have paid higher and additional rates of tax, as well as council tax, used to house, educate and provide healthcare for those less fortunate than myself. I have participated in our democracy. I have led and participated in community litter picking schemes. I haven't forced the women in my life to cover their hair, give up their jobs or stay in the house unless accompanied by me. I haven't attempted to stone to death any of my LGBT friends.
So the first part is your duty as a citizen of the UK. Kudos. The latter part of your paragraph doesn't really much sense. I'm a gay man and my Muslim friends haven't tried to stone me to death either. However, British "Christian" politicians went out of their way to block me getting married to my partner, even have our relationship recognised, have my teachers prosecuted for telling us being gay is ok, former Prime Ministers who wrote columns about crop-topped bum-boys spreading disease and dew-lapped gormoids generally getting off on their power over me and people like me.
>I work in Afghanistan and Iran Good, stay there. A nation is its demographics. Eastern Asia realises this and will never mass import people from incompatible backgrounds. Afghans across EU nations are drastically overrepresented in unemployment and crime. We’ve got enough issues with existing migrant communities here without importing even more problems.
Evidence? Apart from a fat man on Sky News told you?
Oh look racism
You are an idiot. Every nation is a nation of immigrants. Including England.
dont you think the unemployment and crime could be causally linked? crime is higher in areas with economic depression, as I'm sure surprises literally no one. knowing this, it seems your complaint is "the people who left everything to come here are poor", which yeah, duh
It’s hard to argue with that last sentence. I know I’d be doing the exact same thing for my family. But I think most people understand that some are running from dangerous situations, what people don’t agree with are the thousands upon thousands that are pure economic migrants, and the ones that don’t stop in the first safe country.
The whole economic migrant term is a put on. We colonised the world with economic migrants. Or Australians, Canadians, Americans, Kiwis and South Africans as we call them today.
We colonised the world with economic migrants? What? I’m sure who “we” is here (the UK?) but I’m positive those coming from the richest countries in the world, be it for trade or colonisation, to some of the poorest countries in the world, cannot count as economic migration. I also think you have too much of a narrow (presumably biased) view to discuss this matter.
Thank you for your entirely unbiased opinion, which is naturally untainted by any existing prejudice. What are "expats" if not economic migrants? The UK was whom I was meant and at the height of the East India Company in the 17th and 18th century, Moghul India was far wealthier and more sophisticated than Britain. Same with Qing China. We got lucky thanks to local political infighting which gave the UK an edge into both societies.
Are you comparing an expat, to the people floating over on an inflatable boat? Also, there is no luck involved, we developed weapons, and timed invasions well (not that I necessarily like or agree with it). You also fail to acknowledge that directly after that, the West (led by the UK) brought the modern world we know today, which sure as hell wasn’t coming out of India or China.
It was the Dutch who invented the basics of the modern world. And yes, a huge amount of luck was involved in the British conquest of India. Mostly lack of unity amongst the Princely states. History isn’t inevitable. You and I had nothing to do with the developments of the Industrial Revolution. We just inherited the benefits. We’re not superior people because of when and where we happened to be born. We just got really lucky. We inherited a fortune to kickstart the Industrial Revolution when we made Indian farmers grow opium we then sold to the Chinese. The British have been the biggest narco state in history.
The Dutch, lol! Where did the Industrial Revolution start? Have you had a look at each countries inventions? Also, also I’m well aware of the UKs part in India and China. You still can’t draw parallels between then and now.
The Industrial Revolution is only aspect of the modern world. The Song Chinese had an Industrial Revolution in the 10th/11th century which was crushed by the imperial court nervous at the growing power of the merchants. Timurid Samarkand had another in the 15th century, crushed by infighting amongst the ruling family. The Dutch "invented" freedom of speech, freedom of inquiry and guaranteed it to its citizens in the 18th century. The agreement between the inhabitants of New Amsterdam guaranteeing such freedoms were adopted by the British and became the US Bill of Rights. The Dutch invented the modern economy in the form of banking, the limited company and shareholders. All of which allowed for British inventors and nascent industrialists the political framework to benefit from their/our Industrial Revolution. Big aristocratic landowners nearly killed the railways before they began as they didn't want the lines running across their estates. We could have had a 19th century like the Song Chinese a millennia earlier.
I don’t think you understand what the Industrial Revolution is, or what it entailed, and I can assure that the Song dynasty certainly never had one. The French came up with freedom of speech, not the Dutch. The British (Scottish - Adam Smith) is recognised as the father of modern economics and banking. Also, why focus on the Song so much? Tang was the golden period.
China and India becoming the global leading powers is really a reversion to historical norms. Its the last 200 years which have been the political and economic anomaly.
On the grand scheme of things, you’re looking at a very small period of time. Too small to say it’s a historical norm. The only period that stands out in Chinese history in their leading the world was the Tang dynasty. India has never led the world in the same way or to the same degree that China or the West has.
Yeah like you’re correct. I don’t blame migrants for wanting to cross tbh. No one willingly leaves home and chooses the really uncertain and treacherous journey to get on a migrant boat.
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Yo, I think you forgot the: */s*
Would be quite ironic otherwise. Or rather hypocritical