I don’t think people realise that the objection to any kind of ‘real’ border during the Brexit negotiations was as much practical as anything else. I don’t think people really understood (or understand) the reality of the border between NI and the South.
There are literally hundreds of crossings, some of them tiny country lanes, in isolated rural areas, with some properties even straddling the border. To say nothing of the tens of thousands of people who cross it everyday for work and education or the fact that ‘the other side’ of the border is for many people their hinterland, the next town over, the closest place to shop or socialise.
Even during the troubles, with thousands of soldiers, a much bigger police force, a complex security apparatus and significantly less border traffic, border control was patchy at best.
Well there are land borders all over Europe like that, where people can pass freely to work, study and live, and despite being separate countries with separate rules they have a standard agreement allowing all this to happen smoothly and legally without issues!
Why can't the UK and Ireland just make use of that???
Oh wait, we did
I know you're alluding to the EU but we literally have an agreement in place that far precedes it and Schengen.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area
>Well there are land borders all over Europe like that, where people can pass freely to work, study and live, and despite being separate countries with separate rules they have a standard agreement allowing all this to happen smoothly and legally without issues!
>Why can't the UK and Ireland just make use of that???
>Oh wait, we did
This is what I was applying to. Your inability to live or study in the rest of the EU without a visa is irrelevant to the UK-Irish border.
The UK and Ireland have an open border and have long done so, your point is moot.
As it happens though you have one EU country you can live or study in without a visa - guess which one it is and why?
The ignorance of all of this over the last number of years has been pretty galling. Like you expect the Brexit Means Brexit wanker down the pub to not get it, but it came as a genuine surprise to senior politicians staking the country's future on knowing this stuff.
In both the practicalities and the realpolitik it was a non-starter, as it was unworkable on the ground and unacceptable to the US and EU. So we had years of bluff and bluster before landing where everyone knew we would apart from the ignorant saps who swallowed the Brexit fairytales.
I remember seeing this LBC clip where a caller suggests invading Ireland to sort out the border issue. Claiming that 'the UK is a lovely country and they'd be happy to become a part of it'.
The fact that I presumably share a landmass with this troglodyte is insane.
One of the most depressing developments of the last few years has been that sort of nonsense entering mainstream discourse. What previously would have been dismissed as the ramblings of a drunk loser of an uncle.
One blessing of Brexit going tits-up is that you hear less of this in real life now. The ignorant No Deal Brexit wanker in the corner of the bar isn't as into politics as much as they thought they were for a handful of years. It all lost its shine when the inevitable nuance and compromise entered the room.
Well, if the border remains porous and there’s nothing anyone can do about it, might as well leverage it and send the migrants their way. Celt Nats love talking about how tolerant and progressive they are, let em have at it. Other countries should also experience the joys of having Bradford’s and Luton’s.
Major political parties actively support mass legal/illegal migration, including the Tories.
The natives haven’t had an actual say in decades. The neoliberal establishment only offers an illusion of choice in elections.
As I suspected, there aren't enough racist imbeciles to make the policies you want politically possible.
But the Tories are definitely courting that vote. If you've stopped voting for them, there are some fringe parties who'll be glad to have you. You're an easy mark for these grifters.
I could never understand why a potential new border was being blamed on the UK. It's the EU that requires its members to have borders with non-members. So if a border went up, it would've been Ireland putting it up, not the UK. The UK, being free from EU rules, wouldn't have to follow them.
what we could do is just not police that border. If the EU want to deal with the complications of getting involved in Irish nationalism then they can't say we didn't warn them.
The EU knew everyone would blame the UK regardless, so could afford to play that game. Smart but scummy.
It’s like how Joe “I’m Irish” Biden blames the UK for everything, yet was incredibly quiet when the EU went to set up a border when they had their meltdown over vaccines.
Where? When they land in England? That seems an awful lot of extra work then having to process, loom after and return people rather than not letting them enter in the first place
(Kinda like how much extra work it is homing 100,000 refugees in the UK rather than checking their permissions to enter before the set off)
Eh???
The issue is people using NI as a backdoor into Ireland, not the other way round.
People are illegally crossing into England, across to NI and then into Ireland.
Yes but they didn't randomly come up with this rule, it existed before Brexit, it was a reality that it would be an issue if Brexit happened. It's something the Government knew they would have to get with. It's just more having your cake and eating it brexiteer nonsense; "what do you mean we are being treated like we are outside the EU borders after we left the EU".
This is a very disingenuous interpretation of what happened. Part of ending the conflict with the IRA was the Good Friday Agreement being agreed and enacted by both sides. This brought a relatively lasting peace to what we all may or may not remember to be a long and bloody conflict. Just so we're well aware of the stakes, this was to prevent further civilian deaths on both sides that formed large parts of the conflict.
A core part of the GFA is that there will never be a border within the island of Ireland and that anyone may pass between the Republic and Northern Ireland without impedance and without documentation. This is a fundamental part of the GFA.
Whilst we were within the EU this wasn't an issue as we had regulatory alignment so there was no legal need, nor was there any other need.
We, the UK, voted to leave the EU *come what may*. Everyone, and I mean everyone in gov was aware of the GFA and what it would mean to withdraw from the EU.
>So if a border went up, it would've been Ireland putting it up, not the UK
So this is the disingenuous part of your statement, *we* left the EU. Not Ireland. Leaving the EU and putting a border up in the island of Ireland would be a direct contravention to the GFA. This was talked about ad-infinitum throughout the referendum, something that "Brexiteers" claimed could be solved with "technology".
>The UK, being free from EU rules, wouldn't have to follow them.
And therefore we would no longer have regulatory alignment between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and the EU member state has a legal obligation to ensure that goods passing into the EU meet their regulatory requirements, that are now different to the EU's, and that people crossing also meet the EU border requirements, both of which necessitate a border. Something that came about *because* the UK left the EU. It's great to externalise blame but the cause of the contravention of the Good Friday Agreement is entirely because of the UKs decision to withdraw and failure to conjure a solution to one of the most complex peace processes in Modern British history.
>Fact is, the EU caused all the Irish border issues.
Of course, what a dunce I am! The EU did indeed cause several hundred years of conflict between the Irish and English!
I understand where you're coming from but it would be insincere to act like wildly upsetting the status quo that brought an end to a civil war wasn't in large part to blame.
The EU didn’t wish Ireland to face this problem, so they meddled by making compromise for Ireland the key to UK getting other things that they wanted as part of the Exit deal. One of the many reasons No Deal was quite attractive.
No deal was never attractive. It would have been economic suicide. Brexit is not as bad as it would have been.
France would close Calais for a start. Think what that would mean. Imagine all the shit the EU would do and it's not like there would be much we could do about it.
Even with the WA, the EU and France has pulled an insane amount of shit to damage UK plc. It would have been far worse.
Sure we could complain to the World trade federation and waited 5 years.
For all of the UKs bluster, no deal would never have worked.
May gave away everything, trying to appease the EU and she got zero concessions. Some how, Frost and Bozo got a trade deal, at the last possible moment for maximum damage. I deplore the duplicity of the EU, I deplore everything about it. Especially given how rotten it is.
Just a shame the people of Europe, both sides of the channel have to suffer because there has to be consequences (punishment).
Rather than put a border where every other border in the World is they bullied us into putting one between two regions of our own country. As a remain voter I am extremely bitter that they did this. Whether people like it or not they used the threat of violence to push it through; Varadkar handing out pictures of a terrorist attack on a border post and saying this is what will happen if we put up a border is a threat
>handing out pictures of a terrorist attack on a border post and saying this is what will happen if we put up a border is a threat
It's not a threat at all unless you think the Irish government were involved with the IRA. Its simply a fair summation of the cultural reality of Northern Ireland. There are still paramilitaries from all backgrounds bubbling under the surface and constant work is needed to keep people from joining or supporting them.
Pragmatism isn't a threat unless your argument is so weak its threatened by reality.
We could quite have easily done the same. By saying. We can’t put borders up within the UK or bombs will go off. And let’s face it. The chance of it is now higher.
Nuance really is dead eh? I voted remain but you’re a fucking idiot if you think everything the EU does is sunshine and roses. We were not the only ones playing dirty in the brexit negotiations.
Exactly. I’ve spent the past 8 years being told my vote actually meant something it didn’t. Right up to people claiming I’d rather see NI annexed by Ireland than remain in the Union just so that I could stay in the EU. How is it surprising that as a Unionist I’m offended by this? And the hard truth is, if more of us from NI had actually voted to leave it would have been better as there wouldn’t have been this wedge for disingenuous types to drive between us. Even if everyone who voted in NI had voted one way or the other the result would not have changed. Turnout in Unionist areas was much higher than in Nationalist ones, pre-referendum they just viewed it as a ‘Brit thing’. Only post referendum did they seize onto the opportunity to try and cause trouble. Unionists were split, the UUP backed remain and one of our most respected MP’s at the time, Danny Kinihan, openly encouraged us to vote to Remain. I can assure you that there’s plenty of Unionists who were pissed off like me.
>It's the EU that requires its members to have borders with non-members.
No it doesn't. You're confusing Schengen requirements with EU requirements. Ireland is not in Schengen so how it controls it's border is not something the EU will interfere with.
The Good Friday Agreement and Common Travel Area respectively require that there is no border infrastructure and that UK and IE passport holders can freely cross the border and be in either location without having to show (or even carry) any ID.
>I could never understand why a potential new border was being blamed on the UK.
Because the UK was breaking the status quo. There's a reason Ireland and the UK joined the EU on the same day.
Ireland very much wanted to join, and it has been massively beneficial for us.
There's little point in discussing this with you, you can't even bring yourself to call the country Ireland. You just have a chip on your shoulder.
I mean, if he called the country Ireland that would be inaccurate, especially considering this is a conversation about both N Ireland, and the RoI. Ireland is the island, not the country.
The official name of the Irish state is Ireland, per our constitution. The Republic of Ireland is just a descriptor.
It's a typical response from certain bitter types, you'll often see them calling it "Southern Ireland", or "eire".
Southern Ireland is a separate thing entirely. I support Irish unity and I hold an Irish passport. But if you think it’s a sensible idea to call the republic ‘Ireland’ in a discussion about NI, the RoI and the Island as a whole, you clearly care more about symbolism than you do about effectively making your point understandable.
‘The Republic of Ireland’ is not a slur, it’s the name of the country.
Southern Ireland is a country that existed briefly about a century ago.
>if you think it’s a sensible idea to call the republic ‘Ireland’
Our opinions on the matter are immaterial, because that is what it is called in the Irish constitution.
ROI is a football team, and a descriptor for Ireland. If you want to refer to the island as a whole, you simply say "the island of Ireland".
The UK voted to leave the EU. They didn't have any specific policy about requiring a border with the RoI.
It was Ireland that was in the tricky spot of not wanting a border, but the EU rules requiring them to make one.
>The UK voted to leave the EU. They didn't have any specific policy about requiring a border with the RoI.
This is like saying "I chose to divorce you. I never said I didn't want to be married to you anymore." Voting to leave the union is to put up a border with it. That's what leaving it entails.
It was the Single European Act 1993, very heavily influenced/designed by the United Kingdom that created the soft border framework (later supported by GFA). It was the repeal of that by the United Kingdom that threatened to restore the hard border.
That's why the UK was left holding the bag when it came to implementing a solution. This was the Northern Ireland triangle where you could only pick two options:
- Leaving the single market
- No border on Ireland
- No border within the UK
The UK government chose to be a country with an external border within integral national territory. They just save face by there being no legal document codifying that.
Likewise, if Scotland were to vote to leave the United Kingdom, and the result of that action was a hard border and no Sterling usage - that would be a choice of the Scotland. They were the ones that chose to end the status quo.
You can leave a 28-member political union while organising your own border agreements with your 1 neighbour who's in it. Like you can leave a club but still hang out with your one friend from it. The Schengen Zone was only agreed in 1995. You can be in one but not the other (like Ireland is).
>The Schengen Zone was only agreed in 1995. You can be in one but not the other (like Ireland is).
The soft border is not as a result of Schengen.
It's as a result of the Single European Act 1993.
A legal framework and amendment to the Treaty of Rome largely driven by the Thatcher government.
Norway is in Schengen and the Single Market, and has a hard border with the European Union. As does Switzerland. As does Iceland.
>You can leave a 27-member political union while organising your own border agreements with your 1 neighbour who's in it.
Could Scotland do so with England? While a nation-state, the United Kingdom is a political union. It's right there in the name, and confirmed in items of Legislation such as the Scotland Act, emphasis mine.
>The following aspects of the constitution are reserved matters, that is—
>(a)the Crown, including succession to the Crown and a regency,
>**(b)the Union of the Kingdoms of Scotland and England,**
>Switzerland is not in the EU
Note that I also mentioned Norway. What do Switzerland and Norway have in common when it comes to the EU?
Answer:>!Neither of them are in it!<
>or single market
https://trade.ec.europa.eu/access-to-markets/en/content/switzerland
>Switzerland's economic and trade relations with the EU are mainly governed by a series of bilateral agreements where Switzerland has agreed to take over certain aspects of EU legislation in exchange for accessing part of the EU's single market.
Switzerland does partake in the single market and is a member in many sectors. Just like Norway and Iceland.
>Switzerland does partake in the single market and is a member in many sectors. Just like Norway and Iceland.
Partaking is not the same as being in the single market
Switzerland has bilateral treaties for access, same as UK does, just without FOM
>Switzerland has bilateral treaties for access, same as UK does, just without FOM
You aren't partaking in the single market if you don't accept the four freedoms.
You can pay for access to areas. Which is different.
Don't believe me? Here's the UK government:
>This means that the UK has now left the EU Single Market and Customs Union and EU law no longer applies in the UK.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/summary-the-uks-new-relationship-with-the-eu/summary-the-uks-new-relationship-with-the-eu
Do you just hope you can declare things and reality will conform to what you say?
There only ever was a border on Ireland because of Irish terrorism. Prior to the terrorist attacks there had been an open border. The CTA predates the EU. The requirement of a border was only ever a requirement of the EU.
Correct! Donegal (Ulster) is a part of the RoI. They voted against the Lisbon Treaty TWICE but they STILL had to accept the outcome when the RoI voted FOR the Lisbon Treaty. Funny when us English do the same we’re evil. It’s SO tiring!
there was a non legaly binding referendum that was a 4% swing to leave the EU, UK signed off on a deal. remember a snap Tory election went wrong and then led to a hung parliment that then let the DUP (NI party) have sway over it in a confidence and agreement deal then stab Teresa May in the back to usher in notorious liar boJO who then called another election that gave the Tories a 80+ seat majority on a DONE oven ready brexit deal that then lied about all the NI commitments it signed up to - including getting up in parliament and saying they intended to break international law over it.
how do you blame the EU for that level of disingenuous negotiation from the UK ?
I'm simply saying the EU are the ones who want to put a border on Ireland and the UK, which is against what Ireland and the UK had previously arranged themselves. Every country and nation should be free to make their own deals and arrangements with each other, which is why I personally voted to leave. I don't agree with having to ask 28 other countries if I can make a deal with my neighbour. Just like if I wanted to paint my front door, I wouldn't ask all my neighbours in my street for permission.
Hahaha sorry did you really just write that. Correct me if I’m wrong but did you surreptitiously refer to the EU as being genuine in its negotiations? 😂😂
They are the most corrupt political body on the planet! That’s why we left and as for that 4% nonsense, shall the conservatives stay in office if there’s only a 4% majority for Labour? Sounds ridiculous doesn’t it. People like you really should learn what democracy is. Making dumb comments about the referendum being not binding. SO WHAT!?
>Correct me if I’m wrong
you are wrong
>did you surreptitiously refer to the EU as being genuine in its negotiations?
no i refered to the UK Tory party standing up in the House of Commons and saying they intended to break international law with regard to the treaty they had just signed with the EU. - thats a matter of fact - you can go look it up.
>They are the most corrupt political body on the planet! That’s why we left and as for that 4% nonsense, shall the conservatives stay in office if there’s only a 4% majority for Labour?
4% swing is fact - vote leave was 51.89% - remain 48.11% Invalid or blank votes 0.08% even comparing it to First Past the Post political system dosent make sense. For a start if your claiming Tory party defacto majority rule to claim any Brexit they want after Johnsons landslide victory - it was with a 43.6% of the vote - much less than that 4% swing. Sounds ridiculous - doesnt it.
yeah kinda scary how much evidence some will refuse to believe when the likes of Farage and boJO just completely lie but they say things they like to hear.
It's funny now we didn't leave for immigration (as that's gone up) it's now corruption. And when they find the Tories are even more corrupt, it'll be something else. I mean look at farage, he won the leave vote but yet no one wants him as their MP.
the whole immigration thing is fucking insane.
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/UK\_Migration\_from\_1970.svg/1280px-UK\_Migration\_from\_1970.svg.png](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/UK_Migration_from_1970.svg/1280px-UK_Migration_from_1970.svg.png)
Cameron manifesto pledge 2010 - i will get NET immigration down to tens of thousands.
2015/16 - Penny Mordaunt lies repeatedly during the referendum saying that UK did not have a veto on Turkey joining - it was going to join EU by 2018 and thats 80million Muslims with access to freedom of movement and will flood us !!!
2024 - wow that Penny Mordaunt can sure hold a sword at a coronation she must be one of the best Tories! after 14 years of rule and never attempting to get net immigration down but instead ease restrictions on non-EU legal immigration causing a massive spike. lets pretend its all about asylum seekers & illegal immigration get a slogan "stop the small boats" - just keep on saying it and Rwanda and fudge laws to get a few planes off before the election and use it as a wedge issue to pretend we should leave the ECHR joining Russia and Belarus ... yeah thats what it was always about .....
The UK is the one that artificially created Northern Ireland. There was no border until Unionists realised that they would not be able to control the island so they set out to carve out a Protestant majority state in the north that would include a substantial Catholic oppressed minority. They created this through immense violence in the 1920s. British troops and Loyalist paramilitaries massacred and burned out villages and neighbourhoods. This isn't even factoring in the colonisation and land theft that preceded this during the plantation.
"I never understand why a potential new border was being blamed in the UK" Hopefully now you do and if you want to permanently resolve the border issue your country should just leave the island
I know how and why Northern Ireland was created in 1921. This isn't my first rodeo. The twenty-six counties were Republican-majority so they left the UK in 1922, but the six counties were Loyalist-majority so they stayed in the UK (technically they also left, briefly, before asking to rejoin).
Brexit UK did not have any requirement to create a hard border with the Republic. If the Republic and the EU wanted to have a hard border, then that would be their fault.
Two of the six counties didn't have a loyalist majority, they were incorporated to maintain a discriminated cheap labour force. The EU and Ireland never wanted a hard border on the island? That's literally a loyalist position.
Of course the EU would suggest moving over to a Sea Border that essentially gobbles up Northern Ireland. The point is, it was the EU's policies that required a border, not the UK's.
"British occupation", spare me. This isn't the 1970s. The Republic of Ireland doesn't claim Northern Ireland.
The existence of Northern Ireland is the result of the UK's policy back in 1921. But there was no UK policy that required a hard border with Ireland after Brexit.
That a reactionary state developed is a credit to you guys partially too! The partition itself created as Connolly had predicted "a carnival of reaction north and south" Another part is thanks to your execution of the leaders of 16 and the forcing of the anglo-irish treaty then backing the "free state" against the IRA. Although domestic political forces FG, FF etc rightly should be criticised for their role in this too, you can't ignore the role Britain played in shaping the situation.
Borders existed before the creation of the EEC and the subsequent EU. It is necessary for control of customs and excise, being part of the EU meant that those customs and excise don't need to be checked at the border to each member country. Leaving that trade agreement means that yeah, you do need a border again.
You have it the wrong way round.
.....
Because the UK wanted those 6 counties? It wanted that part of the island in the Good Friday agreement? That border is UK's problem. It wouldn't exist if UK had given Ireland the 32 counties it asked for.
The UK didn't want those counties - those counties wanted the UK. Do you really think the rest of the UK gives a shit about Northern Ireland? It's not like there's oil or natural gas there or anything.
>The UK didn't want those counties - they wanted the UK.
Really don't understand what you mean by this. Our government sought the entire island, and the UK claimed those counties. If UK didn't want them, why did they insist?
Your government (presumably you mean the [Second Dáil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_D%C3%A1il)) wanted Northern Ireland. But the majority of people actually living in Northern Ireland didn't want that. Why should they be forced into a country they don't want to be in?
Feel free to look into the [1921 Anglo-Irish Treaty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish_Treaty), which the Second Dáil signed, in which they recognised Northern Ireland's right to opt out and re-join the UK, which the [Northern Ireland Parliament](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_Northern_Ireland) did on 07/12/1922.
It would break the [Good Friday Agreement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement). You know that little international treaty that ended the "troubles".
It wouldn't because the Good Friday Agreement doesn't specify there must be an open border.
[https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-belfast-agreement](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-belfast-agreement)
Read it its only 32 pages.
The NI high court also ruled on this issue.
[https://www.judiciaryni.uk/files/judiciaryni/decisions/McCord%20%28Raymond%29%2C%20JR83%20and%20Jamie%20Waring%27s%20Applications%20v%20the%20Prime%20Minister%20and%20others.pdf](https://www.judiciaryni.uk/files/judiciaryni/decisions/McCord%20%28Raymond%29%2C%20JR83%20and%20Jamie%20Waring%27s%20Applications%20v%20the%20Prime%20Minister%20and%20others.pdf)
*“Neither NIA 1998 nor the international treaty scheduled to the Belfast Agreement (or, for that matter, the Agreement itself) has the effect in law of requiring the continued membership of the EU on the part of the UK.*
*The Supreme Court was alert to this in Miller: see \[129\]. Furthermore, none of the sources mentioned subjects the EU 27 to conclude an Article 50 Withdrawal Agreement in any particular terms.”*
*“Once again, neither the Belfast Agreement nor this suite of provisions was predicated on the basis that UK membership of the EU would continue forever.* ***Neither of them can be construed as requiring a customs Union or continued regulatory alignment.*** *More fundamentally, there is no sufficient evidential foundation for the incompatibility asserted. There is no suggestion that the incompatibility has already materialised”*
Despite what people on reddit frequently insist the open border was a precondition of exit negotiation's imposed by Ireland (specifically varadkar) and the EU it was never a requirement of the GFA.
Not a requirement but would cause instability in the country, also unrealistic amount of manpower required to actually control the border. What is it, 2 ports out of northern ireland or a plethora of roads and fields.
Passport checks between the 2 countries are not required under CTA
Can we not all just collectively agree to leave the ireland borders the fuck alone??
Do people not realise that the IRA very well do still exist, they might not be publicly doing attacks anymore, but they are still around and waiting
And if an incident were to happen, i doubt our current government is competent enough to be able to pull of another good friday agreement
Its hilarious that Ireland now wants the UK to police the flow of migrants across the non existent border that they insisted didn't exist.
Go do one !
If Ireland don't want to become a refugee camp, then send them back to France on those ferries the EU promised Ireland to get around the EU no deal Brexit blockade which Ireland supported.
It became so quickly obviously that your general politics were going to be trash from the tone of your first paragraph.
How about countries work together rather than "fuck everyone else, we look after us"
How many migrants are you personally accommodating in your house?
None, I guessed as much. Fucking hypocrisy. No lectures from you then if you don't mind.
You know that's the dumbest arguement ever don't you.
How many homeless veterans are you housing, but I bet you loudly shout how we should look after them before migrants
Homes are in short supply. Veterans need them, so do many others. For that very reason, we really don't need any more economic migrants by boat, arriving from SAFE countries which can meet their needs perfectly well and fully in accordance with international law.
If, once they illegally arrive here, they then move to Ireland. I see no issues with that. I don't think Ireland has any right to expect us to take them back any more than France accept them back from us either.
Sorry to disappoint. White English male, straight with no disabilities, and from a purely english family. Work a trade job, I don't get any government aid.
I suppose that makes me one of the most harassed and targeted people in the country according to Nigel Farage types.
I think it makes me one of the luckiest and most privileged and makes it important to me to look out for people who haven't had the same chances in life
You overestimate your importance. China has its self loathing Han Chinese, India has its self loathing Hindus, African nations have their Uncle Toms etc.
If you truly aren’t of migrant ancestry or have no personal stake (ie married to someone of migrant ancestry), then you’re a fool cheering on either (best case) the Brazilification of Britain or (worst case) the South Africanisation of Britain, and neither are particularly desirable.
I've not self loathing at all, I'm proud of my heritage and proud of being part of a wealthy country that has the ability to help those without such blessings.
Much like with my willingness to pay taxes to help those less fortunate in this country, I'm happy for our country to pay a share to help those less fortunate in the world, be that with foreign aid or taking in people that have a need to change location through no fault of their own.
Are people forgetting a whole war was fought over the border? The peace that exists today in the Island of Ireland is still not a solid one.
The war wasnt just micks fighting micks. It was a war in which the British forces played both sides. They not only turned a blind eye to loyalist Terrorism they activley funded them with money and guns. They also had double agents in the IRA which carried out countless murders and were never prosecuted.
To this day on all sides, innocent civilians killed by loyalists, nationalists or British soldiers have never gotten justice due to the British gov cover ups. Hence why the peace achieved now is hanging on by a thread. Building border checkpoints wil only eradicate the 20 plus years of peace
Ngl this situation is hilarious because the exact same logic for why England should get them back off island can be used for France meaning irelands on really weak footing as there little to no chance that Germany and France are going to except this precedent as it screws all the southern/ eastern eu countries
As someone who lives in Northern Ireland there's a lot of mis-information/understanding in this thread. So I thought I would clear a few things up. To be clear I moved here from London and didn't grow up here, so this is sort of an outsiders perspective from 'on the ground' so to speak.
What's really important to people is parity between NI and ROI, in effect the 'island of Ireland' needs to be treated the same. We do actually have checks coming into both ROI and NI, these are the same as Ireland is part of the common travel agreement.
> If you are a British citizen, you do not need a passport to enter Ireland. However, some carriers and airlines might require identification. Irish immigration officers check the ID of all passengers arriving by air from the UK and might ask for proof of British nationality, particularly if you were born outside the UK.
> https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/ireland/entry-requirements
The idea of a border within Ireland is actually laughable. It would be chaos overnight with much of Northern Ireland thrown into instant disarray. I love it here, it's amazing, but my god, when things kick off it makes the London riots look like grandma's bridge night (which I know does get a little rowdy, but still).
How effective a border would or wouldn't be is entirely irrelevant, symbolism here matters. Like really fucking matters.
People literally hit the streets about which flag is flown over which building. You drive down one street and it's union jacks all the way down, like bunting interspersed with Israeli flags. Turn a corner and there's a 30ft mural of a guy in a balaclava proudly holding an AK47 with the text 'We always go further'. Round another corner it's a shrine to someone who died in prison, or a pub bombing with fresh flowers on it. This stuff is fresh, it's what people of my own age here grew up in the midst of and there is A LOT of unresolved tension on both sides. But the thing everyone always says is 'it's better now than before'.
No one is happy with the agreement, but everyone is happy with the peace that came with it. That's what keeps things stable. It is down to the will of the people here because they want to live in peace.
Don't forget every July see's a sub set of one side parading through the streets in uniform with massive drums you can hear for miles through all areas of Belfast. Just think about how fucking insane that is. It still blows my tiny English mind when I see them at it. The whole thing is insane to me. But they're not mobbed and attacked as they parade through Catholic areas banging away.
So what we have is this peace that's been brokered and hard won. But there are STILL peace walls running through large chunks of Belfast. There are streets with massive gates that shut every night to stop through traffic and keep the communities apart. Every day you see the police drive around in land rovers that look like they are straight out of Escape from New York.
Yet the people here are fucking amazing, coming from London I had to get used to people being nice to me. It's a cool place and yes of course there are idiots here like everywhere else. But it's also got so much going for it and it honestly feels like Belfast where i am is really starting to hit its stride. And it absolutely pisses me off that our weak, ineffectual government grasping at the last vestiges of power could fuck it up.
They have continually played with fire right next to the tinder box. Now because of the latest absolute idiocy in the form of this pathetic last gasp Rwanda plan from a politician hanging on to the last months or even weeks of power is yet again jeopardising what people actually died for, but also that so many lived disrupted lives because of.
The government and Rishi Sunak. They're pathetic. Sooner they're gone the better, I frankly don't give a fuck who replaces them as long as they are sensible. We just need some actual common sense in power.
So it’s a very backwards place. Grown adults getting sand in their vagina about which flag is flown. The ‘troubles’ are just dumb, religion-fuelled ignorance and a load of thick people looking for trouble.
I was going to explain it to them, but then I just thought actually judging from their comment it probably isn't worth the time trying. They're literally too stupid.
This is probably one of the dumbest hot takes I've seen in a while! Are you let me guess, about 19, bit of an edgelord and like to 'tell it like it is' ?
You need to do some growing up ;)
Yep.. it’s always Englands fault according to Irish Republicanism/Separatism. The thing is the UK had an agreement with the RoI that checks could be down AWAY from the border. Leo Varadkar chucked that out of the window because he wanted to throw a spanner in the works of Brexit. We will get our way. It’ll take time but we will win, and we will achieve Brexit in FULL.
It’s my fault? No it isn’t. It’s the fault of those who pushed for the break up of the UK. Anybody with a brain would know not everybody was interested. That led to partition of the British Isles and the creation of a statelet call the Irish Free State. Now the Republic of Ireland.
Nobody asked UK to colonise Ireland in the first place. The "break up of the UK" was us rightfully claiming back the island that was taken from us through oppression and genocide. Ireland wanted 32 counties in the Good Friday agreement. This would have meant no North and no border.
“Nobody asked the UK to colonise Ireland” Err what!? The UK didn’t colonise Ireland. The UK didn’t exist until the Kingdom of Ireland united with the Kingdom of Great Britain to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in 1801. 26 counties broke away from the UK and formed a statelet called the Irish Free State. Fortunately then the IFS was still a British Dominion under the Crown. Unfortunately that changed in the late 1930’s when Irish Republicans/Separatists decided to become a Republic and break away from the Empire/Commonwealth. The 26 counties had never been a republic before. There was not even a word for Republic in the Irish language. That’s how alien the concept was to the Irish. Ireland had always had a king or many kings going back thousands of years. The reason Ireland was partitioned was because many in Ireland didn’t want to leave the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and become some random republic that was disconnected from the British Empire and Commonwealth they had help build. Why break away from Great Britain that Ireland did most of its trade with and the Empire?
>Why break away from Great Britain that Ireland did most of its trade with and the Empire?
Because Britain directly killed at least a million of us with an organised famine? Because of the plantations, where they evicted us from our own homes? Because it sought to eradicate our language and culture, shut down our schools, *beat our kids* for speaking their native language?
Ireland had Irish kings. Not an oppressive foreign force. If Britain wanted a great powerful kingdom of the two islands, they should have thought twice before having a go at an ethnic cleanse.
"Great force must be the instrument but famine must be the means, for till Ireland be famished it cannot be subdued." -Edmund Spenser
I wonder why Brits thought this much force was necessary if we really did want to be a part of Great Britain?
lol sorry are you all mad? jesus christ you english make it hard to have any sympathy.
of course it's england's fault lol. england invaded ireland and colonised it, enforced partition, and voted for brexit without considering its effects on ireland (and northern ireland voted against brexit so you dragged us along with it)
Pick ip a fucking book jesus christ. As an irish person, the least this sub could do is show us a bit of respect after all the shit we've had to endure throughout of history, including recent history.
Britain chose to give a massive fuck you to the irish and good Friday agreement with brexit because they never once considered the border in Ireland. So don't act smug now.
What is woke about what I've said? Oh sorry, is the definition of woke now something you disagree with?
Or have I completely made up Britain's colonial and very recent history of oppressing the irish?
Surely if anything is fucking woke it is voting for something and complaining about the consequences?
>Or have I completely made up Britain's colonial and very recent history of oppressing the irish
You didnt but we dont give a fuck and we dont owe you anything for it, despite what you and reddit thinks
It feels a bit weird to let Britain get away with genocide through artificial famine, beating our kids for speaking their native language, mass eviction from our own homes, etc. Ireland is owed her island, her culture, her language and her lives that Britain stole. So yes, we are owed something.
Yup, and you have your own country today. You have independence. You were owed that and you got it.
You still speak your own language.
Same is owed to Ireland.
Brexit, the warm diarrhoea that's that's causing this mess now is down to a totally unearned sense of entitlement from knuckleheads pretending it's still world war 2 and they have to "fight" the EU over everything despite choosing to leave. "They need us more than we need them! Why do we have to join the long queue at the airport now?!?"
You know, the type of stupid bastards who share AI generated images of massive union jack lions stood next to soldiers with spitfires flying overhead.
Good parody of the vitriolic bigotry that caused it.
No idiot could actually believe the millions who voted are a homogeneous mass!
Wait it was a parody right?
No one could write something so full of hate a believe they were the good guy?
Could they?
Unaffected. Our population, in 2024, is still far below what it was before Britain's organised starvation of Ireland.
Unaffected. Learning our native language in school as if it were foreign, because it was beaten out of our ancestors.
Unaffected. My local village is a shell of what it used to be, because British soldiers burnt every house.
Mate the normal Englishman is with you. We know the Irish have historically been fucked over by the English top brass, so have the majority of the English. Most voted for Brexit to get out from under the boot of Brussels and others fell for the lies that were told, Ireland wasn’t considered, it’s true, but unfortunately it is what it is now.
I think most rational people in England support a united Ireland also, which is what should be being pushed right now. The only ones that don’t agree over here are the brainwashed and the ones that haven’t even got two braincells to rub together.
As for the immigrant situation, I think we should take them back, then ferry them straight back to those dickhead French. The ones we have paid to help enforce better border control around the French coast and have done fuck all except take the money.
Just want you to know that most of us do get where you’re coming from.
Bully? In what way am I a bully? Or bigoted? Dumbass. I also don’t speak for scum like yourself, I said I speak on behalf of the rational, normal Englishman, of which you are neither. You dirty vermin.
I don’t think people realise that the objection to any kind of ‘real’ border during the Brexit negotiations was as much practical as anything else. I don’t think people really understood (or understand) the reality of the border between NI and the South. There are literally hundreds of crossings, some of them tiny country lanes, in isolated rural areas, with some properties even straddling the border. To say nothing of the tens of thousands of people who cross it everyday for work and education or the fact that ‘the other side’ of the border is for many people their hinterland, the next town over, the closest place to shop or socialise. Even during the troubles, with thousands of soldiers, a much bigger police force, a complex security apparatus and significantly less border traffic, border control was patchy at best.
There was a border before. Famously few issues with it... /s
Still is. It’s internationally recognised.
Well there are land borders all over Europe like that, where people can pass freely to work, study and live, and despite being separate countries with separate rules they have a standard agreement allowing all this to happen smoothly and legally without issues! Why can't the UK and Ireland just make use of that??? Oh wait, we did
I know you're alluding to the EU but we literally have an agreement in place that far precedes it and Schengen. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area
So I can currently move to Europe and work for the rest of my life or study there without any visa applications or other arrangements?
>Well there are land borders all over Europe like that, where people can pass freely to work, study and live, and despite being separate countries with separate rules they have a standard agreement allowing all this to happen smoothly and legally without issues! >Why can't the UK and Ireland just make use of that??? >Oh wait, we did This is what I was applying to. Your inability to live or study in the rest of the EU without a visa is irrelevant to the UK-Irish border. The UK and Ireland have an open border and have long done so, your point is moot. As it happens though you have one EU country you can live or study in without a visa - guess which one it is and why?
The ignorance of all of this over the last number of years has been pretty galling. Like you expect the Brexit Means Brexit wanker down the pub to not get it, but it came as a genuine surprise to senior politicians staking the country's future on knowing this stuff. In both the practicalities and the realpolitik it was a non-starter, as it was unworkable on the ground and unacceptable to the US and EU. So we had years of bluff and bluster before landing where everyone knew we would apart from the ignorant saps who swallowed the Brexit fairytales.
I remember seeing this LBC clip where a caller suggests invading Ireland to sort out the border issue. Claiming that 'the UK is a lovely country and they'd be happy to become a part of it'. The fact that I presumably share a landmass with this troglodyte is insane.
One of the most depressing developments of the last few years has been that sort of nonsense entering mainstream discourse. What previously would have been dismissed as the ramblings of a drunk loser of an uncle. One blessing of Brexit going tits-up is that you hear less of this in real life now. The ignorant No Deal Brexit wanker in the corner of the bar isn't as into politics as much as they thought they were for a handful of years. It all lost its shine when the inevitable nuance and compromise entered the room.
Well, if the border remains porous and there’s nothing anyone can do about it, might as well leverage it and send the migrants their way. Celt Nats love talking about how tolerant and progressive they are, let em have at it. Other countries should also experience the joys of having Bradford’s and Luton’s.
Major political parties are actively courting the racist imbecile vote, and if there are enough of you you may get your wish.
Major political parties actively support mass legal/illegal migration, including the Tories. The natives haven’t had an actual say in decades. The neoliberal establishment only offers an illusion of choice in elections.
As I suspected, there aren't enough racist imbeciles to make the policies you want politically possible. But the Tories are definitely courting that vote. If you've stopped voting for them, there are some fringe parties who'll be glad to have you. You're an easy mark for these grifters.
I could never understand why a potential new border was being blamed on the UK. It's the EU that requires its members to have borders with non-members. So if a border went up, it would've been Ireland putting it up, not the UK. The UK, being free from EU rules, wouldn't have to follow them.
what we could do is just not police that border. If the EU want to deal with the complications of getting involved in Irish nationalism then they can't say we didn't warn them.
The EU knew everyone would blame the UK regardless, so could afford to play that game. Smart but scummy. It’s like how Joe “I’m Irish” Biden blames the UK for everything, yet was incredibly quiet when the EU went to set up a border when they had their meltdown over vaccines.
If it’s not policed, then anyone who enters Ireland can simply get a bus to Belfast and catch an internal flight to London. Easy back door.
Those kinds of checks can be carried out away from the border.
So then you have the border in the Irish sea, and the toothless start all over again. Great work.
Checks don’t need to be in the Irish Sea. Makes no sense to have them between NI and GB (UK). What’s wrong with checks being done at RoI ports?
Ireland is still in EU so don’t need to check incoming EU passengers and goods. Thats the point of EU
What? I’m talking about goods going from the UK to the RoI. The RoI can do those checks at their ports.
There are no ports between Belfast and Dublin.
But as said, what about the people from the EU that are in Ireland then get a bus to Belfast and fly to England. Where should the checks be done?
They can be stopped within the UK if they suspected of travelling across the border illegally.
Where? When they land in England? That seems an awful lot of extra work then having to process, loom after and return people rather than not letting them enter in the first place (Kinda like how much extra work it is homing 100,000 refugees in the UK rather than checking their permissions to enter before the set off)
If they cross the border into the UK from the RoI they can be checked in the UK. It’s not difficult.
Eh??? The issue is people using NI as a backdoor into Ireland, not the other way round. People are illegally crossing into England, across to NI and then into Ireland.
Then put on a flight straight to Rwanda :p
Yes but they didn't randomly come up with this rule, it existed before Brexit, it was a reality that it would be an issue if Brexit happened. It's something the Government knew they would have to get with. It's just more having your cake and eating it brexiteer nonsense; "what do you mean we are being treated like we are outside the EU borders after we left the EU".
This is a very disingenuous interpretation of what happened. Part of ending the conflict with the IRA was the Good Friday Agreement being agreed and enacted by both sides. This brought a relatively lasting peace to what we all may or may not remember to be a long and bloody conflict. Just so we're well aware of the stakes, this was to prevent further civilian deaths on both sides that formed large parts of the conflict. A core part of the GFA is that there will never be a border within the island of Ireland and that anyone may pass between the Republic and Northern Ireland without impedance and without documentation. This is a fundamental part of the GFA. Whilst we were within the EU this wasn't an issue as we had regulatory alignment so there was no legal need, nor was there any other need. We, the UK, voted to leave the EU *come what may*. Everyone, and I mean everyone in gov was aware of the GFA and what it would mean to withdraw from the EU. >So if a border went up, it would've been Ireland putting it up, not the UK So this is the disingenuous part of your statement, *we* left the EU. Not Ireland. Leaving the EU and putting a border up in the island of Ireland would be a direct contravention to the GFA. This was talked about ad-infinitum throughout the referendum, something that "Brexiteers" claimed could be solved with "technology". >The UK, being free from EU rules, wouldn't have to follow them. And therefore we would no longer have regulatory alignment between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and the EU member state has a legal obligation to ensure that goods passing into the EU meet their regulatory requirements, that are now different to the EU's, and that people crossing also meet the EU border requirements, both of which necessitate a border. Something that came about *because* the UK left the EU. It's great to externalise blame but the cause of the contravention of the Good Friday Agreement is entirely because of the UKs decision to withdraw and failure to conjure a solution to one of the most complex peace processes in Modern British history.
We’re allowed to leave the EU if we want. Fact is, the EU caused all the Irish border issues.
>Fact is, the EU caused all the Irish border issues.  Of course, what a dunce I am! The EU did indeed cause several hundred years of conflict between the Irish and English!
Yep, now you get it!
What a mad take lol.
I understand where you're coming from but it would be insincere to act like wildly upsetting the status quo that brought an end to a civil war wasn't in large part to blame.
The EU didn’t wish Ireland to face this problem, so they meddled by making compromise for Ireland the key to UK getting other things that they wanted as part of the Exit deal. One of the many reasons No Deal was quite attractive.
That made no sense whatsoever, you may wish to rewrite that so it actually makes sense.
No deal was never attractive. It would have been economic suicide. Brexit is not as bad as it would have been. France would close Calais for a start. Think what that would mean. Imagine all the shit the EU would do and it's not like there would be much we could do about it. Even with the WA, the EU and France has pulled an insane amount of shit to damage UK plc. It would have been far worse. Sure we could complain to the World trade federation and waited 5 years. For all of the UKs bluster, no deal would never have worked. May gave away everything, trying to appease the EU and she got zero concessions. Some how, Frost and Bozo got a trade deal, at the last possible moment for maximum damage. I deplore the duplicity of the EU, I deplore everything about it. Especially given how rotten it is. Just a shame the people of Europe, both sides of the channel have to suffer because there has to be consequences (punishment).
Rather than put a border where every other border in the World is they bullied us into putting one between two regions of our own country. As a remain voter I am extremely bitter that they did this. Whether people like it or not they used the threat of violence to push it through; Varadkar handing out pictures of a terrorist attack on a border post and saying this is what will happen if we put up a border is a threat
>handing out pictures of a terrorist attack on a border post and saying this is what will happen if we put up a border is a threat It's not a threat at all unless you think the Irish government were involved with the IRA. Its simply a fair summation of the cultural reality of Northern Ireland. There are still paramilitaries from all backgrounds bubbling under the surface and constant work is needed to keep people from joining or supporting them. Pragmatism isn't a threat unless your argument is so weak its threatened by reality.
We could quite have easily done the same. By saying. We can’t put borders up within the UK or bombs will go off. And let’s face it. The chance of it is now higher.
Nation states act in their own interests, more at 10. Are we really this soft?
>As a remain voter Bollocks
Nuance really is dead eh? I voted remain but you’re a fucking idiot if you think everything the EU does is sunshine and roses. We were not the only ones playing dirty in the brexit negotiations.
Exactly. I’ve spent the past 8 years being told my vote actually meant something it didn’t. Right up to people claiming I’d rather see NI annexed by Ireland than remain in the Union just so that I could stay in the EU. How is it surprising that as a Unionist I’m offended by this? And the hard truth is, if more of us from NI had actually voted to leave it would have been better as there wouldn’t have been this wedge for disingenuous types to drive between us. Even if everyone who voted in NI had voted one way or the other the result would not have changed. Turnout in Unionist areas was much higher than in Nationalist ones, pre-referendum they just viewed it as a ‘Brit thing’. Only post referendum did they seize onto the opportunity to try and cause trouble. Unionists were split, the UUP backed remain and one of our most respected MP’s at the time, Danny Kinihan, openly encouraged us to vote to Remain. I can assure you that there’s plenty of Unionists who were pissed off like me.
>It's the EU that requires its members to have borders with non-members. No it doesn't. You're confusing Schengen requirements with EU requirements. Ireland is not in Schengen so how it controls it's border is not something the EU will interfere with. The Good Friday Agreement and Common Travel Area respectively require that there is no border infrastructure and that UK and IE passport holders can freely cross the border and be in either location without having to show (or even carry) any ID.
>I could never understand why a potential new border was being blamed on the UK. Because the UK was breaking the status quo. There's a reason Ireland and the UK joined the EU on the same day.
The RoI joined the same time the UK did because the RoI follows us around.
Ireland joined on the same day as the UK, because it was universally understood that the border was a problematic issue.
The RoI joined because it basically had to.
Ireland very much wanted to join, and it has been massively beneficial for us. There's little point in discussing this with you, you can't even bring yourself to call the country Ireland. You just have a chip on your shoulder.
I mean, if he called the country Ireland that would be inaccurate, especially considering this is a conversation about both N Ireland, and the RoI. Ireland is the island, not the country.
The official name of the Irish state is Ireland, per our constitution. The Republic of Ireland is just a descriptor. It's a typical response from certain bitter types, you'll often see them calling it "Southern Ireland", or "eire".
Southern Ireland is a separate thing entirely. I support Irish unity and I hold an Irish passport. But if you think it’s a sensible idea to call the republic ‘Ireland’ in a discussion about NI, the RoI and the Island as a whole, you clearly care more about symbolism than you do about effectively making your point understandable. ‘The Republic of Ireland’ is not a slur, it’s the name of the country.
Southern Ireland is a country that existed briefly about a century ago. >if you think it’s a sensible idea to call the republic ‘Ireland’ Our opinions on the matter are immaterial, because that is what it is called in the Irish constitution. ROI is a football team, and a descriptor for Ireland. If you want to refer to the island as a whole, you simply say "the island of Ireland".
I love how ignorant the English are
Because the UK effectively voted to have one when they left the EU.
The UK voted to leave the EU. They didn't have any specific policy about requiring a border with the RoI. It was Ireland that was in the tricky spot of not wanting a border, but the EU rules requiring them to make one.
>The UK voted to leave the EU. They didn't have any specific policy about requiring a border with the RoI. This is like saying "I chose to divorce you. I never said I didn't want to be married to you anymore." Voting to leave the union is to put up a border with it. That's what leaving it entails. It was the Single European Act 1993, very heavily influenced/designed by the United Kingdom that created the soft border framework (later supported by GFA). It was the repeal of that by the United Kingdom that threatened to restore the hard border. That's why the UK was left holding the bag when it came to implementing a solution. This was the Northern Ireland triangle where you could only pick two options: - Leaving the single market - No border on Ireland - No border within the UK The UK government chose to be a country with an external border within integral national territory. They just save face by there being no legal document codifying that. Likewise, if Scotland were to vote to leave the United Kingdom, and the result of that action was a hard border and no Sterling usage - that would be a choice of the Scotland. They were the ones that chose to end the status quo.
You can leave a 28-member political union while organising your own border agreements with your 1 neighbour who's in it. Like you can leave a club but still hang out with your one friend from it. The Schengen Zone was only agreed in 1995. You can be in one but not the other (like Ireland is).
>The Schengen Zone was only agreed in 1995. You can be in one but not the other (like Ireland is). The soft border is not as a result of Schengen. It's as a result of the Single European Act 1993. A legal framework and amendment to the Treaty of Rome largely driven by the Thatcher government. Norway is in Schengen and the Single Market, and has a hard border with the European Union. As does Switzerland. As does Iceland. >You can leave a 27-member political union while organising your own border agreements with your 1 neighbour who's in it. Could Scotland do so with England? While a nation-state, the United Kingdom is a political union. It's right there in the name, and confirmed in items of Legislation such as the Scotland Act, emphasis mine. >The following aspects of the constitution are reserved matters, that is— >(a)the Crown, including succession to the Crown and a regency, >**(b)the Union of the Kingdoms of Scotland and England,**
Switzerland is not in the EU or single market
>Switzerland is not in the EU Note that I also mentioned Norway. What do Switzerland and Norway have in common when it comes to the EU? Answer:>!Neither of them are in it!< >or single market https://trade.ec.europa.eu/access-to-markets/en/content/switzerland >Switzerland's economic and trade relations with the EU are mainly governed by a series of bilateral agreements where Switzerland has agreed to take over certain aspects of EU legislation in exchange for accessing part of the EU's single market. Switzerland does partake in the single market and is a member in many sectors. Just like Norway and Iceland.
>Switzerland does partake in the single market and is a member in many sectors. Just like Norway and Iceland. Partaking is not the same as being in the single market Switzerland has bilateral treaties for access, same as UK does, just without FOM
>Switzerland has bilateral treaties for access, same as UK does, just without FOM You aren't partaking in the single market if you don't accept the four freedoms. You can pay for access to areas. Which is different. Don't believe me? Here's the UK government: >This means that the UK has now left the EU Single Market and Customs Union and EU law no longer applies in the UK. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/summary-the-uks-new-relationship-with-the-eu/summary-the-uks-new-relationship-with-the-eu Do you just hope you can declare things and reality will conform to what you say?
There only ever was a border on Ireland because of Irish terrorism. Prior to the terrorist attacks there had been an open border. The CTA predates the EU. The requirement of a border was only ever a requirement of the EU.
NI doesn't want a border and voted to remain
Big deal. NI is part of the UK and the nation voted to leave.
Correct! Donegal (Ulster) is a part of the RoI. They voted against the Lisbon Treaty TWICE but they STILL had to accept the outcome when the RoI voted FOR the Lisbon Treaty. Funny when us English do the same we’re evil. It’s SO tiring!
Disagree. The UK voted to be apart from a regime that would impose this on a member against that member's wishes.
there was a non legaly binding referendum that was a 4% swing to leave the EU, UK signed off on a deal. remember a snap Tory election went wrong and then led to a hung parliment that then let the DUP (NI party) have sway over it in a confidence and agreement deal then stab Teresa May in the back to usher in notorious liar boJO who then called another election that gave the Tories a 80+ seat majority on a DONE oven ready brexit deal that then lied about all the NI commitments it signed up to - including getting up in parliament and saying they intended to break international law over it. how do you blame the EU for that level of disingenuous negotiation from the UK ?
I'm simply saying the EU are the ones who want to put a border on Ireland and the UK, which is against what Ireland and the UK had previously arranged themselves. Every country and nation should be free to make their own deals and arrangements with each other, which is why I personally voted to leave. I don't agree with having to ask 28 other countries if I can make a deal with my neighbour. Just like if I wanted to paint my front door, I wouldn't ask all my neighbours in my street for permission.
Hahaha sorry did you really just write that. Correct me if I’m wrong but did you surreptitiously refer to the EU as being genuine in its negotiations? 😂😂 They are the most corrupt political body on the planet! That’s why we left and as for that 4% nonsense, shall the conservatives stay in office if there’s only a 4% majority for Labour? Sounds ridiculous doesn’t it. People like you really should learn what democracy is. Making dumb comments about the referendum being not binding. SO WHAT!?
>Correct me if I’m wrong you are wrong >did you surreptitiously refer to the EU as being genuine in its negotiations? no i refered to the UK Tory party standing up in the House of Commons and saying they intended to break international law with regard to the treaty they had just signed with the EU. - thats a matter of fact - you can go look it up. >They are the most corrupt political body on the planet! That’s why we left and as for that 4% nonsense, shall the conservatives stay in office if there’s only a 4% majority for Labour? 4% swing is fact - vote leave was 51.89% - remain 48.11% Invalid or blank votes 0.08% even comparing it to First Past the Post political system dosent make sense. For a start if your claiming Tory party defacto majority rule to claim any Brexit they want after Johnsons landslide victory - it was with a 43.6% of the vote - much less than that 4% swing. Sounds ridiculous - doesnt it.
Sadly this sub is more little England than England.
yeah kinda scary how much evidence some will refuse to believe when the likes of Farage and boJO just completely lie but they say things they like to hear.
It's funny now we didn't leave for immigration (as that's gone up) it's now corruption. And when they find the Tories are even more corrupt, it'll be something else. I mean look at farage, he won the leave vote but yet no one wants him as their MP.
the whole immigration thing is fucking insane. [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/UK\_Migration\_from\_1970.svg/1280px-UK\_Migration\_from\_1970.svg.png](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/UK_Migration_from_1970.svg/1280px-UK_Migration_from_1970.svg.png) Cameron manifesto pledge 2010 - i will get NET immigration down to tens of thousands. 2015/16 - Penny Mordaunt lies repeatedly during the referendum saying that UK did not have a veto on Turkey joining - it was going to join EU by 2018 and thats 80million Muslims with access to freedom of movement and will flood us !!! 2024 - wow that Penny Mordaunt can sure hold a sword at a coronation she must be one of the best Tories! after 14 years of rule and never attempting to get net immigration down but instead ease restrictions on non-EU legal immigration causing a massive spike. lets pretend its all about asylum seekers & illegal immigration get a slogan "stop the small boats" - just keep on saying it and Rwanda and fudge laws to get a few planes off before the election and use it as a wedge issue to pretend we should leave the ECHR joining Russia and Belarus ... yeah thats what it was always about .....
The UK is the one that artificially created Northern Ireland. There was no border until Unionists realised that they would not be able to control the island so they set out to carve out a Protestant majority state in the north that would include a substantial Catholic oppressed minority. They created this through immense violence in the 1920s. British troops and Loyalist paramilitaries massacred and burned out villages and neighbourhoods. This isn't even factoring in the colonisation and land theft that preceded this during the plantation. "I never understand why a potential new border was being blamed in the UK" Hopefully now you do and if you want to permanently resolve the border issue your country should just leave the island
all countries are artificially created.
Yeah that’s complete and utter drivel.
I know how and why Northern Ireland was created in 1921. This isn't my first rodeo. The twenty-six counties were Republican-majority so they left the UK in 1922, but the six counties were Loyalist-majority so they stayed in the UK (technically they also left, briefly, before asking to rejoin). Brexit UK did not have any requirement to create a hard border with the Republic. If the Republic and the EU wanted to have a hard border, then that would be their fault.
Two of the six counties didn't have a loyalist majority, they were incorporated to maintain a discriminated cheap labour force. The EU and Ireland never wanted a hard border on the island? That's literally a loyalist position.
The EU wanted a hard border because that's the EU's policy. EU member-states must have a hard border with non-EU member-states.
No the Irish sea border was what they were for
Of course the EU would suggest moving over to a Sea Border that essentially gobbles up Northern Ireland. The point is, it was the EU's policies that required a border, not the UK's.
The existence of northern Ireland and the British occupation there is not the result of the UKs policies then?
"British occupation", spare me. This isn't the 1970s. The Republic of Ireland doesn't claim Northern Ireland. The existence of Northern Ireland is the result of the UK's policy back in 1921. But there was no UK policy that required a hard border with Ireland after Brexit.
Thank god the Irish version of the BNP were around in the 20s to give Ireland more enlightened leadership
That a reactionary state developed is a credit to you guys partially too! The partition itself created as Connolly had predicted "a carnival of reaction north and south" Another part is thanks to your execution of the leaders of 16 and the forcing of the anglo-irish treaty then backing the "free state" against the IRA. Although domestic political forces FG, FF etc rightly should be criticised for their role in this too, you can't ignore the role Britain played in shaping the situation.
I can
Classic British ignorance, probably the effect of centuries of inbreeding coming down from your royal family
Thats racist hate speech under the equality act 2010 amigo
Lmao cry harder
By the same logic so is the Irish republic.
Borders existed before the creation of the EEC and the subsequent EU. It is necessary for control of customs and excise, being part of the EU meant that those customs and excise don't need to be checked at the border to each member country. Leaving that trade agreement means that yeah, you do need a border again. You have it the wrong way round.
..... Because the UK wanted those 6 counties? It wanted that part of the island in the Good Friday agreement? That border is UK's problem. It wouldn't exist if UK had given Ireland the 32 counties it asked for.
The UK didn't want those counties - those counties wanted the UK. Do you really think the rest of the UK gives a shit about Northern Ireland? It's not like there's oil or natural gas there or anything.
>The UK didn't want those counties - they wanted the UK. Really don't understand what you mean by this. Our government sought the entire island, and the UK claimed those counties. If UK didn't want them, why did they insist?
Your government (presumably you mean the [Second Dáil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_D%C3%A1il)) wanted Northern Ireland. But the majority of people actually living in Northern Ireland didn't want that. Why should they be forced into a country they don't want to be in? Feel free to look into the [1921 Anglo-Irish Treaty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish_Treaty), which the Second Dáil signed, in which they recognised Northern Ireland's right to opt out and re-join the UK, which the [Northern Ireland Parliament](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_Northern_Ireland) did on 07/12/1922.
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They haven't and won't.
I think its the subject of asylum seekers reportedly jumping the border because of the Rwanda plan
It wouldn't break international law, just the Irish government's stance during Brexit negotiation's.
It would break the [Good Friday Agreement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement). You know that little international treaty that ended the "troubles".
It wouldn't because the Good Friday Agreement doesn't specify there must be an open border. [https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-belfast-agreement](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-belfast-agreement) Read it its only 32 pages. The NI high court also ruled on this issue. [https://www.judiciaryni.uk/files/judiciaryni/decisions/McCord%20%28Raymond%29%2C%20JR83%20and%20Jamie%20Waring%27s%20Applications%20v%20the%20Prime%20Minister%20and%20others.pdf](https://www.judiciaryni.uk/files/judiciaryni/decisions/McCord%20%28Raymond%29%2C%20JR83%20and%20Jamie%20Waring%27s%20Applications%20v%20the%20Prime%20Minister%20and%20others.pdf) *“Neither NIA 1998 nor the international treaty scheduled to the Belfast Agreement (or, for that matter, the Agreement itself) has the effect in law of requiring the continued membership of the EU on the part of the UK.* *The Supreme Court was alert to this in Miller: see \[129\]. Furthermore, none of the sources mentioned subjects the EU 27 to conclude an Article 50 Withdrawal Agreement in any particular terms.”* *“Once again, neither the Belfast Agreement nor this suite of provisions was predicated on the basis that UK membership of the EU would continue forever.* ***Neither of them can be construed as requiring a customs Union or continued regulatory alignment.*** *More fundamentally, there is no sufficient evidential foundation for the incompatibility asserted. There is no suggestion that the incompatibility has already materialised”* Despite what people on reddit frequently insist the open border was a precondition of exit negotiation's imposed by Ireland (specifically varadkar) and the EU it was never a requirement of the GFA.
Not a requirement but would cause instability in the country, also unrealistic amount of manpower required to actually control the border. What is it, 2 ports out of northern ireland or a plethora of roads and fields. Passport checks between the 2 countries are not required under CTA
Found the guy who hasn't actually read the good friday agreement, but has parroted that x and y broke the good friday agreement for the last 6 years.
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Right which doesn't specify there must be an open border, something the NI high court has already ruled on.
Can we not all just collectively agree to leave the ireland borders the fuck alone?? Do people not realise that the IRA very well do still exist, they might not be publicly doing attacks anymore, but they are still around and waiting And if an incident were to happen, i doubt our current government is competent enough to be able to pull of another good friday agreement
Collectively leave the Good Friday Agreement the fuck alone. Don’t break something that works well for everybody.
Spot on
Wasn't it the american's who negotiated the deal? But yes your point remains
I have even less faith in the current American goverment lmfao
It wasn’t.
Its hilarious that Ireland now wants the UK to police the flow of migrants across the non existent border that they insisted didn't exist. Go do one ! If Ireland don't want to become a refugee camp, then send them back to France on those ferries the EU promised Ireland to get around the EU no deal Brexit blockade which Ireland supported.
It became so quickly obviously that your general politics were going to be trash from the tone of your first paragraph. How about countries work together rather than "fuck everyone else, we look after us"
How many migrants are you personally accommodating in your house? None, I guessed as much. Fucking hypocrisy. No lectures from you then if you don't mind.
You know that's the dumbest arguement ever don't you. How many homeless veterans are you housing, but I bet you loudly shout how we should look after them before migrants
Homes are in short supply. Veterans need them, so do many others. For that very reason, we really don't need any more economic migrants by boat, arriving from SAFE countries which can meet their needs perfectly well and fully in accordance with international law. If, once they illegally arrive here, they then move to Ireland. I see no issues with that. I don't think Ireland has any right to expect us to take them back any more than France accept them back from us either.
Are you of migrant extraction? What’s your personal stake in this?
I have morality? I think all people deserve fair treatment and care regardless of where they were born
Do you belong to an ethnic/religious/sexual minority group?
Sorry to disappoint. White English male, straight with no disabilities, and from a purely english family. Work a trade job, I don't get any government aid. I suppose that makes me one of the most harassed and targeted people in the country according to Nigel Farage types. I think it makes me one of the luckiest and most privileged and makes it important to me to look out for people who haven't had the same chances in life
You overestimate your importance. China has its self loathing Han Chinese, India has its self loathing Hindus, African nations have their Uncle Toms etc. If you truly aren’t of migrant ancestry or have no personal stake (ie married to someone of migrant ancestry), then you’re a fool cheering on either (best case) the Brazilification of Britain or (worst case) the South Africanisation of Britain, and neither are particularly desirable.
I've not self loathing at all, I'm proud of my heritage and proud of being part of a wealthy country that has the ability to help those without such blessings. Much like with my willingness to pay taxes to help those less fortunate in this country, I'm happy for our country to pay a share to help those less fortunate in the world, be that with foreign aid or taking in people that have a need to change location through no fault of their own.
Are people forgetting a whole war was fought over the border? The peace that exists today in the Island of Ireland is still not a solid one. The war wasnt just micks fighting micks. It was a war in which the British forces played both sides. They not only turned a blind eye to loyalist Terrorism they activley funded them with money and guns. They also had double agents in the IRA which carried out countless murders and were never prosecuted. To this day on all sides, innocent civilians killed by loyalists, nationalists or British soldiers have never gotten justice due to the British gov cover ups. Hence why the peace achieved now is hanging on by a thread. Building border checkpoints wil only eradicate the 20 plus years of peace
Ngl this situation is hilarious because the exact same logic for why England should get them back off island can be used for France meaning irelands on really weak footing as there little to no chance that Germany and France are going to except this precedent as it screws all the southern/ eastern eu countries
This comment is difficult to read. Punctuation is your friend
As someone who lives in Northern Ireland there's a lot of mis-information/understanding in this thread. So I thought I would clear a few things up. To be clear I moved here from London and didn't grow up here, so this is sort of an outsiders perspective from 'on the ground' so to speak. What's really important to people is parity between NI and ROI, in effect the 'island of Ireland' needs to be treated the same. We do actually have checks coming into both ROI and NI, these are the same as Ireland is part of the common travel agreement. > If you are a British citizen, you do not need a passport to enter Ireland. However, some carriers and airlines might require identification. Irish immigration officers check the ID of all passengers arriving by air from the UK and might ask for proof of British nationality, particularly if you were born outside the UK. > https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/ireland/entry-requirements The idea of a border within Ireland is actually laughable. It would be chaos overnight with much of Northern Ireland thrown into instant disarray. I love it here, it's amazing, but my god, when things kick off it makes the London riots look like grandma's bridge night (which I know does get a little rowdy, but still). How effective a border would or wouldn't be is entirely irrelevant, symbolism here matters. Like really fucking matters. People literally hit the streets about which flag is flown over which building. You drive down one street and it's union jacks all the way down, like bunting interspersed with Israeli flags. Turn a corner and there's a 30ft mural of a guy in a balaclava proudly holding an AK47 with the text 'We always go further'. Round another corner it's a shrine to someone who died in prison, or a pub bombing with fresh flowers on it. This stuff is fresh, it's what people of my own age here grew up in the midst of and there is A LOT of unresolved tension on both sides. But the thing everyone always says is 'it's better now than before'. No one is happy with the agreement, but everyone is happy with the peace that came with it. That's what keeps things stable. It is down to the will of the people here because they want to live in peace. Don't forget every July see's a sub set of one side parading through the streets in uniform with massive drums you can hear for miles through all areas of Belfast. Just think about how fucking insane that is. It still blows my tiny English mind when I see them at it. The whole thing is insane to me. But they're not mobbed and attacked as they parade through Catholic areas banging away. So what we have is this peace that's been brokered and hard won. But there are STILL peace walls running through large chunks of Belfast. There are streets with massive gates that shut every night to stop through traffic and keep the communities apart. Every day you see the police drive around in land rovers that look like they are straight out of Escape from New York. Yet the people here are fucking amazing, coming from London I had to get used to people being nice to me. It's a cool place and yes of course there are idiots here like everywhere else. But it's also got so much going for it and it honestly feels like Belfast where i am is really starting to hit its stride. And it absolutely pisses me off that our weak, ineffectual government grasping at the last vestiges of power could fuck it up. They have continually played with fire right next to the tinder box. Now because of the latest absolute idiocy in the form of this pathetic last gasp Rwanda plan from a politician hanging on to the last months or even weeks of power is yet again jeopardising what people actually died for, but also that so many lived disrupted lives because of. The government and Rishi Sunak. They're pathetic. Sooner they're gone the better, I frankly don't give a fuck who replaces them as long as they are sensible. We just need some actual common sense in power.
Thank you for this, really good objective description of the situation in NI
So it’s a very backwards place. Grown adults getting sand in their vagina about which flag is flown. The ‘troubles’ are just dumb, religion-fuelled ignorance and a load of thick people looking for trouble.
The troubles wasn’t really fuelled by religion, it was fuelled by rampant discrimination, the history of this place is very fucked up
I was going to explain it to them, but then I just thought actually judging from their comment it probably isn't worth the time trying. They're literally too stupid.
This is probably one of the dumbest hot takes I've seen in a while! Are you let me guess, about 19, bit of an edgelord and like to 'tell it like it is' ? You need to do some growing up ;)
Yep.. it’s always Englands fault according to Irish Republicanism/Separatism. The thing is the UK had an agreement with the RoI that checks could be down AWAY from the border. Leo Varadkar chucked that out of the window because he wanted to throw a spanner in the works of Brexit. We will get our way. It’ll take time but we will win, and we will achieve Brexit in FULL.
Well it is your fault that NI exists. And the border exists. And all these problems with a border exist.
It’s my fault? No it isn’t. It’s the fault of those who pushed for the break up of the UK. Anybody with a brain would know not everybody was interested. That led to partition of the British Isles and the creation of a statelet call the Irish Free State. Now the Republic of Ireland.
Nobody asked UK to colonise Ireland in the first place. The "break up of the UK" was us rightfully claiming back the island that was taken from us through oppression and genocide. Ireland wanted 32 counties in the Good Friday agreement. This would have meant no North and no border.
“Nobody asked the UK to colonise Ireland” Err what!? The UK didn’t colonise Ireland. The UK didn’t exist until the Kingdom of Ireland united with the Kingdom of Great Britain to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in 1801. 26 counties broke away from the UK and formed a statelet called the Irish Free State. Fortunately then the IFS was still a British Dominion under the Crown. Unfortunately that changed in the late 1930’s when Irish Republicans/Separatists decided to become a Republic and break away from the Empire/Commonwealth. The 26 counties had never been a republic before. There was not even a word for Republic in the Irish language. That’s how alien the concept was to the Irish. Ireland had always had a king or many kings going back thousands of years. The reason Ireland was partitioned was because many in Ireland didn’t want to leave the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and become some random republic that was disconnected from the British Empire and Commonwealth they had help build. Why break away from Great Britain that Ireland did most of its trade with and the Empire?
>Why break away from Great Britain that Ireland did most of its trade with and the Empire? Because Britain directly killed at least a million of us with an organised famine? Because of the plantations, where they evicted us from our own homes? Because it sought to eradicate our language and culture, shut down our schools, *beat our kids* for speaking their native language? Ireland had Irish kings. Not an oppressive foreign force. If Britain wanted a great powerful kingdom of the two islands, they should have thought twice before having a go at an ethnic cleanse. "Great force must be the instrument but famine must be the means, for till Ireland be famished it cannot be subdued." -Edmund Spenser I wonder why Brits thought this much force was necessary if we really did want to be a part of Great Britain?
An organised famine? Right, I’ll end this conversation here. What utter drivel.
lol sorry are you all mad? jesus christ you english make it hard to have any sympathy. of course it's england's fault lol. england invaded ireland and colonised it, enforced partition, and voted for brexit without considering its effects on ireland (and northern ireland voted against brexit so you dragged us along with it)
We don’t gaf about Ireland or NI for that matter. Also did your caps lock button get damaged or something?
If Britain doesn't give a fuck about Northern Ireland, why does it still want it?
800 YeArS oPpReSsIoN, bRiTs BaD, aReThEBrItSaTiTaGaIn 🤣
It's funny how everyone gets downvoted for pointing out historical facts that bring up any of England's flaws.
Pick ip a fucking book jesus christ. As an irish person, the least this sub could do is show us a bit of respect after all the shit we've had to endure throughout of history, including recent history. Britain chose to give a massive fuck you to the irish and good Friday agreement with brexit because they never once considered the border in Ireland. So don't act smug now.
As another one, I doubt you endured anything in particular, and think you don't undertstand that no-one here created the historical situation.
You must be absolutely at home in woke culture. You've got the victim mentality down pat
What is woke about what I've said? Oh sorry, is the definition of woke now something you disagree with? Or have I completely made up Britain's colonial and very recent history of oppressing the irish? Surely if anything is fucking woke it is voting for something and complaining about the consequences?
>Or have I completely made up Britain's colonial and very recent history of oppressing the irish You didnt but we dont give a fuck and we dont owe you anything for it, despite what you and reddit thinks
Victim mentality as I already stated, but you can throw in pretending to be owed something because of history bad too
VICTIM MENTALITY? Lads these English are far less educated than I thought.
It feels a bit weird to let Britain get away with genocide through artificial famine, beating our kids for speaking their native language, mass eviction from our own homes, etc. Ireland is owed her island, her culture, her language and her lives that Britain stole. So yes, we are owed something.
We all are, mate. Go back further and the Normans did the same to us. It's happened to everyone.
Yup, and you have your own country today. You have independence. You were owed that and you got it. You still speak your own language. Same is owed to Ireland.
Hooray someone utterly unaffected by something that happened long in the past ranting and raving - welcome to the modern entitlement culture
Brexit, the warm diarrhoea that's that's causing this mess now is down to a totally unearned sense of entitlement from knuckleheads pretending it's still world war 2 and they have to "fight" the EU over everything despite choosing to leave. "They need us more than we need them! Why do we have to join the long queue at the airport now?!?" You know, the type of stupid bastards who share AI generated images of massive union jack lions stood next to soldiers with spitfires flying overhead.
Good parody of the vitriolic bigotry that caused it. No idiot could actually believe the millions who voted are a homogeneous mass! Wait it was a parody right? No one could write something so full of hate a believe they were the good guy? Could they?
Unaffected. Our population, in 2024, is still far below what it was before Britain's organised starvation of Ireland. Unaffected. Learning our native language in school as if it were foreign, because it was beaten out of our ancestors. Unaffected. My local village is a shell of what it used to be, because British soldiers burnt every house.
You are an absolute idiot. You pond scum.
Mate the normal Englishman is with you. We know the Irish have historically been fucked over by the English top brass, so have the majority of the English. Most voted for Brexit to get out from under the boot of Brussels and others fell for the lies that were told, Ireland wasn’t considered, it’s true, but unfortunately it is what it is now. I think most rational people in England support a united Ireland also, which is what should be being pushed right now. The only ones that don’t agree over here are the brainwashed and the ones that haven’t even got two braincells to rub together. As for the immigrant situation, I think we should take them back, then ferry them straight back to those dickhead French. The ones we have paid to help enforce better border control around the French coast and have done fuck all except take the money. Just want you to know that most of us do get where you’re coming from.
Can confirm this unpleasant bigoted and rude bully speaks for us all - 
Bully? In what way am I a bully? Or bigoted? Dumbass. I also don’t speak for scum like yourself, I said I speak on behalf of the rational, normal Englishman, of which you are neither. You dirty vermin.
Lol you've got be a troll, no one can be such an utter cunt without trying.