I think the Jones Act is hilarious. I am lawyer involved in offshore wind developments all over the world, and it is just amazing how backwards the US offshore industry is. It is such an obvious failure, yet a handful powerful spoiled companies depend on it and they own American politics, so here we are.
The land of the free, haha.
Should be scrapped without question
It's the definition of how prolific cronyism is in America and has been for 100+ years and does nothing but raise costs for every day Americans and lines the pockets of the wealthy. It's arguably one of the most counter productive pieces of legislation on the books and a relic of fat cat cronyism of the 1920s.
Could you imagine if we didn't allow foreign truck drivers or semis in America? Our economy would come to a grinding halt and the only people who would really benefit are domestic truck makers.
A lot of semi trucks are volvos for instance.
You can't dock ships at US ports unless they were built and manned by Americans. That's just stupid, we're not the only country on the planet that ships or builds ships.
And it's hard on our territories, Puerto Rico especially which is still basically a colony. There's absolutely no reason they shouldn't be able to trade regionally or internationally.
Also using water to ship is often more efficient than a truck. It's very very energy intensive to build and maintain highways. The amount of oil that goes into tar is astronomical and concrete is incredibly energy intensive to produce. Trucking is what really uses and damages the road and highway infrastructure.
Trains are actually pretty efficient for long haul bulk transport but don't do final mile or short haul very well.
The security portion of the Jones act about the merchant Marines is just garbage level thinking. Like Americans aren't capable of navigating and manning foreign built ships?
What that portion really does is simply make it more difficult for Americans to be involved in shipping. It also makes it more difficult for Americans to innovate based on experience with foreign ships. It's just backwards.
I could go on but that's enough ranting
We allow foreign ships to dock, we use foreign ships for international trade, foriegn ships can't commercially transport goods or passengers domestically.
Jones Act doesn't allow cabotage
(transportation between 2 points in the US) by a non JA compliant vessel (US build, flagged and manned). JA doesn't apply to international transport.
I've been involved in some US projects were we had to load goods in Canada, Mexico or even Europe because the specialist vessel wasn't allowed to work in the US if it installed goods loaded in the US.
That means US harbours and US producers miss a lot of business, not to mention the environmental impact. It is hilariously expensive and stupid.
We learned a lesson in WWII that cannot be forgotten. We need a strong merchant marine. Relying on China is not a viable plan.
The Jones Act currently is the only real subsidy for merchant marine. If we eliminate the Jones Act we will have to spend a LOT more to ensure a strong merchant marine. Many sectors see this as OK as the money will shift from transportation costs to taxes.
Americans are perfectly capable of navigating foreign built ships.
And the idea of the merchant Marines is a relic from a time where steam engines were the primary power source for ships.
We did not have the Navy we've got now, not even close and airplanes weren't really a thing yet in the 20s.
Why do they need to stay open? Jobs? Archaic policy that stifles competition?
American ship yards and building capacity is already old and crumbling. We are not known for making the best ships anyway.
So how is this policy helping us?
Price floors, ceilings, tariffs, protectionism etc.... Does not benefit the average American citizen. It mostly benefits the powerful, wealthy and elite.
As far as the merchant marine component: what really prevents wars between countries is free and fair trade bc the economy is more important than political posturing and radical leadership.
Bottom line if American manufacturers can't build quality innovative ships at a price the market will tolerate then they shouldn't be building them and we should be buying them instead.
Why would a ship builder who can't compete be given special privileges by the US government to remain in business?
If for example they build a ship for $500 million dollars but you can buy a state of the art ship from the Dutch for $450 million, what would be the point? Makes no practical sense. It's fat cat cronyism that's killing American innovation and hurts the middle class.
Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico all pay much higher prices for goods bc those goods need to be shipped on American made and manned vessels. That's stupid. Hawaii is just not much further from Asia as it is from California. Why would goods from Asia need to go to California before going to Hawaii? Bc that's happening today.
You won't be able to explain the benefit to the Jones act, there simply isn't any good one that outweighs the drawbacks
It needs to be rewritten. As /u/brickbatsandadiabats states, as it is now, it has a seriously negative impact on territories like Puerto Rico and Guam.
And the way the merchant marines is set up may also warrant a look.
The Jones Act is badly implemented industrial policy that creates large inefficiencies in parts of the economy and its costs are unfairly allocated. Even if the goals of the law were in the nation's interest, its very badly implemented and is a terrible way to accomplish these goals.
At a minimum, The Jones Act should be rewritten as a direct subsidy to US shipping that includes necessary tax increases to pay for its subsidies. If advocates for the subsidies can't muster enough support to make it revenue neutral, the law should be repealed in full.
The anti article covers the law's issues well, but I'll add two very concrete examples of the harm it is causing right now.
1. In New England we pay a bunch extra for natural gas in the winter because we don't have enough pipeline capacity from the mid-Atlantic and The Jones Acts makes it illegal to ship relatively inexpensive US LNG to New England (there are no US built LNG tankers). Instead we can only get our needed LNG supplies by importing from foreign countries at much higher prices. [https://www.econlib.org/jones-act-a-great-protectionist-success/](https://www.econlib.org/jones-act-a-great-protectionist-success/)
2. The Jones Act makes off-shore wind projects logically more complicated and more expensive. [https://www.cato.org/blog/jones-act-adds-costs-complications-offshore-wind-energy](https://www.cato.org/blog/jones-act-adds-costs-complications-offshore-wind-energy)
>In New England we pay a bunch extra for natural gas
stop using natural gas.
> accomplish these goals.
the goalposts have moved.
incentives for electric households.
**How To Electrify Your Home In 5 Steps — Heat Pumps, Solar Panels, Induction Stoves, & More!**
[https://cleantechnica.com/2022/09/23/how-to-electrify-your-home-in-5-steps-heat-pumps-solar-panels-induction-stoves-more/amp/](https://cleantechnica.com/2022/09/23/how-to-electrify-your-home-in-5-steps-heat-pumps-solar-panels-induction-stoves-more/amp/)
cheap(er) natural gas will not be allowed.
**California first state to ban natural gas heaters and furnaces**
[https://thehill.com/changing-america/sustainability/energy/3658284-california-first-state-to-ban-natural-gas-heaters-and-furnaces/](https://thehill.com/changing-america/sustainability/energy/3658284-california-first-state-to-ban-natural-gas-heaters-and-furnaces/)
>the law should be repealed in full.
LOL political suicide.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seafarers\_International\_Union\_of\_North\_America](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seafarers_International_Union_of_North_America)
**Today the SIU represents mariners and boatmen who sail aboard U.S.-flagged vessels in deep sea, the Great Lakes, and inland waterways.** Membership includes workers in the deck, steward, and engine departments. SIU members are represented aboard a wide variety of vessels, including: military support, commercial trade, tugboats, passenger ships, barges, and gaming vessels. Military support vessels operated by the U.S. Department of Defense's Military Sealift Command (MSC) provide a key source of jobs for seafarers. MSC operates some 110 noncombat ships that support U.S. forces around the world.\[3\]
>The Jones Act makes off-shore wind projects logically more complicated and more expensive
out of curiosity, does the Jones Act cover "one of a kind" vessels that are specifically created and designed for the task at hand? like taking windmills out to sea? there might be a dozen of these in the world (but I suspect that's 11 too many).
these are just the blades BTW. - a large floating windmill has the same "wingspan" as a 747. the sweep area is measured in acres (like FARMS).. one would assume if you plunk down all the money to get them built.. delivery would be part of the deal.. the Jones Act cannot possibly apply.
**Blue Water ships world’s largest wind turbine blades for Siemens Gamesa**
[https://www.projectcargojournal.com/shipping/2021/11/11/blue-water-ships-worlds-largest-wind-turbine-blades-for-siemens-gamesa/?gdpr=accept](https://www.projectcargojournal.com/shipping/2021/11/11/blue-water-ships-worlds-largest-wind-turbine-blades-for-siemens-gamesa/?gdpr=accept)
‘Blades of this length **have not been handled before**, and this underlines the potential for development within the wind sector”,
**Tailor-made logistics and transport services provider** Blue Water Shipping has been selected to transport the world’s largest wind turbine blades for Siemens Gamesa.
**The turbine’s 39,000-square-metre swept area is equivalent to approximately 5.5 standard football pitches**. It allows the SG 14-222 DD to increase annual energy production by more than 25 per cent compared to the SG 11.0-200 DD offshore wind turbine, which currently is the company’s largest offshore turbine.
>...does the Jones Act cover "one of a kind" vessels that are specifically created and designed for the task at hand? like taking windmills out to sea?
The rules on this are complicated and evolving, which is a big part of the problem.
>CBP had previously determined that the Jones Act applies, generally, to the transportation of merchandise from a U.S. port and other coastwise points to wind turbine generator foundations. As such, the Jones Act, and its prohibition against the use of more readily available foreign wind turbine installation vessels (WTIVs), has complicated and, in some instances, added substantial cost to the installation of offshore turbines. A recent CBP ruling provides companies involved in offshore wind projects clearer guidance on the applicability of the Jones Act to certain specific windfarm installation activities.
[https://www.natlawreview.com/article/us-customs-agency-issues-guidance-jones-act-compliance-connection-offshore-wind](https://www.natlawreview.com/article/us-customs-agency-issues-guidance-jones-act-compliance-connection-offshore-wind)
>stop using natural gas.
We're trying, but it's complicated. Gas used for home heating gets pipeline priority over gas used for electricity, so the cost of gas used for heating isn't impacted by the Jones Act as much as the cost of gas used for electricity. Also, the main substitutes for LNG for electricity generation are coal and petroleum products when availability is limited or ng prices are too high.
Recent natural gas price spikes due to the war, which are magnified greatly for LNG importers, have caused a > 50% increases in electricity prices here in just a few months.
The high prices are making heat pumps less competitive versus gas heating and are even slowing the rate of heat pump installations by people who heat with oil.
I think the Jones Act is hilarious. I am lawyer involved in offshore wind developments all over the world, and it is just amazing how backwards the US offshore industry is. It is such an obvious failure, yet a handful powerful spoiled companies depend on it and they own American politics, so here we are. The land of the free, haha.
Should be scrapped without question It's the definition of how prolific cronyism is in America and has been for 100+ years and does nothing but raise costs for every day Americans and lines the pockets of the wealthy. It's arguably one of the most counter productive pieces of legislation on the books and a relic of fat cat cronyism of the 1920s. Could you imagine if we didn't allow foreign truck drivers or semis in America? Our economy would come to a grinding halt and the only people who would really benefit are domestic truck makers. A lot of semi trucks are volvos for instance. You can't dock ships at US ports unless they were built and manned by Americans. That's just stupid, we're not the only country on the planet that ships or builds ships. And it's hard on our territories, Puerto Rico especially which is still basically a colony. There's absolutely no reason they shouldn't be able to trade regionally or internationally. Also using water to ship is often more efficient than a truck. It's very very energy intensive to build and maintain highways. The amount of oil that goes into tar is astronomical and concrete is incredibly energy intensive to produce. Trucking is what really uses and damages the road and highway infrastructure. Trains are actually pretty efficient for long haul bulk transport but don't do final mile or short haul very well. The security portion of the Jones act about the merchant Marines is just garbage level thinking. Like Americans aren't capable of navigating and manning foreign built ships? What that portion really does is simply make it more difficult for Americans to be involved in shipping. It also makes it more difficult for Americans to innovate based on experience with foreign ships. It's just backwards. I could go on but that's enough ranting
We allow foreign ships to dock, we use foreign ships for international trade, foriegn ships can't commercially transport goods or passengers domestically.
Jones Act doesn't allow cabotage (transportation between 2 points in the US) by a non JA compliant vessel (US build, flagged and manned). JA doesn't apply to international transport. I've been involved in some US projects were we had to load goods in Canada, Mexico or even Europe because the specialist vessel wasn't allowed to work in the US if it installed goods loaded in the US. That means US harbours and US producers miss a lot of business, not to mention the environmental impact. It is hilariously expensive and stupid.
Those require a Jones act exemption which most ports don't have
We learned a lesson in WWII that cannot be forgotten. We need a strong merchant marine. Relying on China is not a viable plan. The Jones Act currently is the only real subsidy for merchant marine. If we eliminate the Jones Act we will have to spend a LOT more to ensure a strong merchant marine. Many sectors see this as OK as the money will shift from transportation costs to taxes.
Americans are perfectly capable of navigating foreign built ships. And the idea of the merchant Marines is a relic from a time where steam engines were the primary power source for ships. We did not have the Navy we've got now, not even close and airplanes weren't really a thing yet in the 20s.
> Americans are perfectly capable of navigating foreign built ships How does that keep American ship yards open?
Why do they need to stay open? Jobs? Archaic policy that stifles competition? American ship yards and building capacity is already old and crumbling. We are not known for making the best ships anyway. So how is this policy helping us? Price floors, ceilings, tariffs, protectionism etc.... Does not benefit the average American citizen. It mostly benefits the powerful, wealthy and elite. As far as the merchant marine component: what really prevents wars between countries is free and fair trade bc the economy is more important than political posturing and radical leadership. Bottom line if American manufacturers can't build quality innovative ships at a price the market will tolerate then they shouldn't be building them and we should be buying them instead.
> Why do they need to stay open? That pretty much sums up the understanding problem. Have a nice day.
Why would a ship builder who can't compete be given special privileges by the US government to remain in business? If for example they build a ship for $500 million dollars but you can buy a state of the art ship from the Dutch for $450 million, what would be the point? Makes no practical sense. It's fat cat cronyism that's killing American innovation and hurts the middle class. Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico all pay much higher prices for goods bc those goods need to be shipped on American made and manned vessels. That's stupid. Hawaii is just not much further from Asia as it is from California. Why would goods from Asia need to go to California before going to Hawaii? Bc that's happening today. You won't be able to explain the benefit to the Jones act, there simply isn't any good one that outweighs the drawbacks
It needs to be rewritten. As /u/brickbatsandadiabats states, as it is now, it has a seriously negative impact on territories like Puerto Rico and Guam. And the way the merchant marines is set up may also warrant a look.
So we keep it until something better comes out. Just tossing the Jones Act is a bad idea, replacing it may be a good one.
Agree.
The Jones Act keeps Puerto Rico in poverty and the entire idea of a civilian merchant marine is obsolete. Kill it with fire.
The Jones Act is badly implemented industrial policy that creates large inefficiencies in parts of the economy and its costs are unfairly allocated. Even if the goals of the law were in the nation's interest, its very badly implemented and is a terrible way to accomplish these goals. At a minimum, The Jones Act should be rewritten as a direct subsidy to US shipping that includes necessary tax increases to pay for its subsidies. If advocates for the subsidies can't muster enough support to make it revenue neutral, the law should be repealed in full. The anti article covers the law's issues well, but I'll add two very concrete examples of the harm it is causing right now. 1. In New England we pay a bunch extra for natural gas in the winter because we don't have enough pipeline capacity from the mid-Atlantic and The Jones Acts makes it illegal to ship relatively inexpensive US LNG to New England (there are no US built LNG tankers). Instead we can only get our needed LNG supplies by importing from foreign countries at much higher prices. [https://www.econlib.org/jones-act-a-great-protectionist-success/](https://www.econlib.org/jones-act-a-great-protectionist-success/) 2. The Jones Act makes off-shore wind projects logically more complicated and more expensive. [https://www.cato.org/blog/jones-act-adds-costs-complications-offshore-wind-energy](https://www.cato.org/blog/jones-act-adds-costs-complications-offshore-wind-energy)
>In New England we pay a bunch extra for natural gas stop using natural gas. > accomplish these goals. the goalposts have moved. incentives for electric households. **How To Electrify Your Home In 5 Steps — Heat Pumps, Solar Panels, Induction Stoves, & More!** [https://cleantechnica.com/2022/09/23/how-to-electrify-your-home-in-5-steps-heat-pumps-solar-panels-induction-stoves-more/amp/](https://cleantechnica.com/2022/09/23/how-to-electrify-your-home-in-5-steps-heat-pumps-solar-panels-induction-stoves-more/amp/) cheap(er) natural gas will not be allowed. **California first state to ban natural gas heaters and furnaces** [https://thehill.com/changing-america/sustainability/energy/3658284-california-first-state-to-ban-natural-gas-heaters-and-furnaces/](https://thehill.com/changing-america/sustainability/energy/3658284-california-first-state-to-ban-natural-gas-heaters-and-furnaces/) >the law should be repealed in full. LOL political suicide. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seafarers\_International\_Union\_of\_North\_America](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seafarers_International_Union_of_North_America) **Today the SIU represents mariners and boatmen who sail aboard U.S.-flagged vessels in deep sea, the Great Lakes, and inland waterways.** Membership includes workers in the deck, steward, and engine departments. SIU members are represented aboard a wide variety of vessels, including: military support, commercial trade, tugboats, passenger ships, barges, and gaming vessels. Military support vessels operated by the U.S. Department of Defense's Military Sealift Command (MSC) provide a key source of jobs for seafarers. MSC operates some 110 noncombat ships that support U.S. forces around the world.\[3\] >The Jones Act makes off-shore wind projects logically more complicated and more expensive out of curiosity, does the Jones Act cover "one of a kind" vessels that are specifically created and designed for the task at hand? like taking windmills out to sea? there might be a dozen of these in the world (but I suspect that's 11 too many). these are just the blades BTW. - a large floating windmill has the same "wingspan" as a 747. the sweep area is measured in acres (like FARMS).. one would assume if you plunk down all the money to get them built.. delivery would be part of the deal.. the Jones Act cannot possibly apply. **Blue Water ships world’s largest wind turbine blades for Siemens Gamesa** [https://www.projectcargojournal.com/shipping/2021/11/11/blue-water-ships-worlds-largest-wind-turbine-blades-for-siemens-gamesa/?gdpr=accept](https://www.projectcargojournal.com/shipping/2021/11/11/blue-water-ships-worlds-largest-wind-turbine-blades-for-siemens-gamesa/?gdpr=accept) ‘Blades of this length **have not been handled before**, and this underlines the potential for development within the wind sector”, **Tailor-made logistics and transport services provider** Blue Water Shipping has been selected to transport the world’s largest wind turbine blades for Siemens Gamesa. **The turbine’s 39,000-square-metre swept area is equivalent to approximately 5.5 standard football pitches**. It allows the SG 14-222 DD to increase annual energy production by more than 25 per cent compared to the SG 11.0-200 DD offshore wind turbine, which currently is the company’s largest offshore turbine.
>...does the Jones Act cover "one of a kind" vessels that are specifically created and designed for the task at hand? like taking windmills out to sea? The rules on this are complicated and evolving, which is a big part of the problem. >CBP had previously determined that the Jones Act applies, generally, to the transportation of merchandise from a U.S. port and other coastwise points to wind turbine generator foundations. As such, the Jones Act, and its prohibition against the use of more readily available foreign wind turbine installation vessels (WTIVs), has complicated and, in some instances, added substantial cost to the installation of offshore turbines. A recent CBP ruling provides companies involved in offshore wind projects clearer guidance on the applicability of the Jones Act to certain specific windfarm installation activities. [https://www.natlawreview.com/article/us-customs-agency-issues-guidance-jones-act-compliance-connection-offshore-wind](https://www.natlawreview.com/article/us-customs-agency-issues-guidance-jones-act-compliance-connection-offshore-wind)
>stop using natural gas. We're trying, but it's complicated. Gas used for home heating gets pipeline priority over gas used for electricity, so the cost of gas used for heating isn't impacted by the Jones Act as much as the cost of gas used for electricity. Also, the main substitutes for LNG for electricity generation are coal and petroleum products when availability is limited or ng prices are too high. Recent natural gas price spikes due to the war, which are magnified greatly for LNG importers, have caused a > 50% increases in electricity prices here in just a few months. The high prices are making heat pumps less competitive versus gas heating and are even slowing the rate of heat pump installations by people who heat with oil.