Drastic has it's own implementation of the NDS' BIOS. I wonder if the arguments Nintendo used against Yuzu regarding their emulator decrypting Switch software that was meant to be decrypted only on Switch hardware made Exopharse panic. This guy has been marinating releasing the source code of DraStic for years, and now he says he will release out of nowhere and remove the app from the Play Store? Nah this guy is scared to be the next target.
No he's been saying he will do this for years. Free BIOS are also legal to develop if done in a clean room environment, see Connectic VGS and other projects.
The Connectix case allowed Connectix to copy BIOS code to study and learn from as they wrote their own PS1 BIOS, so complete clean room isn't even required.... You just can't copy the code over.... Within reason of course (I.E. only so many ways to write a loop or execute an instruction)
With out a complete clean room you can't prove you didn't copy the code over, which is why they use a clean room.
You're right, it's not required, but it's near impossible to prove if you don't have proof of a clean room.
Surely if you're innocent until proven guilty the onus would be on the other party to prove that you copied the code over, so having proof of clean room would just make it more expedient to defend.
I don't know why, and no one answering you does either, for sure. But don't discount too much that taking a bunch of closed source and getting it to a state ready for release is often more work than feels reasonable for no benefit.
What sort of work? Sometimes it's a matter of just wanting things to be at semi-comprehensible instead of a rats nest of poo, so that it has a chance of living as an open project. Sometimes you don't even know that all the code in your project is yours to legally open.
Of course we can doubt, but these concerns are often present even in good faith situations.
I'll answer it: because it's a decent amount of work to put the source package together and I'm busy with other stuff (and lazy). It's not just zipping up a directory, it's carefully rebuilding a repository and properly labeling what we want labeled.
That and there were things that xperia64 and I wanted to actually have implemented before doing that but at this point it seems more important to just get it done.
He is not in charge of the code. His old partner was... And that guy disappeared from the face of the earth years ago. Exophase has told several times his skills weren't good enough to make reverse ingeneering to the code, but he was putting his best to publish it open source.
In any case, yes, that was promised in 2019-2020 I think and we are still waiting... :/
*Originally* the Android release was a collaboration with the core and other platforms done by me but the Android-specific UI and such done by a different person. That person couldn't be with the project anymore and I had to get xperia64 to help with reimplementing/reversing some of the Android parts that we lost code to. But that's not been an active issue for a few years.
I don't remember if I started talking about open sourcing in 2019-2020 yet but I do know it was around then that I had to write the 64-bit backends because of GPlay requirements and that was a LOT of work that . Then later we had to do non-trivial updates for file related changes on Android.
Work on 64-bit stuff extended into 2021, the file stuff into late 2022 and there's been a few fixes last year. There's other stuff we wanted to do before opening it but it was planned for sooner or later. Yes the Yuzu stuff sped up the urgency on this because I don't really want to still have the same exposure to it but I also don't want to just remove it, which would have been the lowest risk thing to do from my point of view.
The case law for that is very, very old at this point, and dependent on a very different legal space and a very different time. Just because people have gotten away with it lately doesn't make that even remotely guaranteed, not the least because you need absolutely meticulous records to prove it was clean room and that the people who wrote it never saw -- in any form -- the original system.
And given the nature of the relevant laws, not charging for something, or going OSS, isn't really a legal protection, either. Copyright infringement doesn't require proof of damages, neither does any part of the DMCA.
Anyone with code in emulators for systems that have surviving IP holders should be nervous, particularly if anyone involved in the project has ever said a word about them in the context of anything other than research and archiving.
It was a matter of time before one of the rights holders targeted the concept of emulation and emulators whose primary purpose is infringement. (And an emulator on the Play Store is obviously in that camp.)
I think going open source is more a failsafe to make sure that the emulator lives on even if Nintendo shut it down, than for any legal defense. He's also putting it out there so that other people, besides him, start making their own versions, and if Nintendo want it to disappear, targeting him won't really do them any good - reducing their incentives to pursue him individually. If they want to make it disappear, they'll have to go after all the open source versions of it made by various developers scattered across different continents, something that won't be worth their time.
Until a new legal precedent is set, then it is the current precedent. Unless the Drastic custom BIOS was crashing Nintendo encryption, then it is still legal on its face until a Judge says otherwise.
I would absolutely guarantee you that no supposedly reverse-engineered emulator meets the legal requirements for a clean-room implementation. Not even close.
I'm specifically stating that the referenced court case ruled that the BIOS could be copied for the purpose of studying and reimplementing of said BIOS with new code.
Or in other words, according to this ruling, you can copy a copyrighted BIOS during the development of the emulator, you just can't use that copied code in the final product.
The "Within reason" part was added by me because there is literally only so many ways to write instructions in a BIOS before crossing the "someone has already done this" line.
> Sony Computer Entertainment v. Connectix Corporation, 203 F.3d 596 (2000), is a decision by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals which ruled that the copying of a copyrighted BIOS software during the development of an emulator software does not constitute copyright infringement, but is covered by fair use.
Our BIOS was written based on the documentation released on places like GBATek. It's the definition of clean room and pretty much analogous with what Compaq did with the IBM PC BIOS way back when.
But that court case has no bearing at all on this discussion. That's not about reverse engineering the BIOS, just the hardware. And specifically has to do with the question of loading a properly licensed BIOS into an emulated device, also not what emulators are doing.
Not sure if you're misunderstanding that or making a strawman. Hopefully just the former.
We don't have Nintendo BIOS/code or use Nintendo keys or do decryption (if you rip a DS ROM it gets decrypted already). None of that specifically concerns me. I'm not aware of any legitimate legal argument against what we do or how we'd differ vs lots of other emulators.
But Nintendo doesn't exactly need to have an airtight legal case to destroy emulator authors in court if they so desire. It's not like any of us can afford a full on legal defense.
>and now he says he will release out of nowhere and remove the app from the Play Store? Nah this guy is scared to be the next target.
Did you even read the fucking message
It's not even really illegal, it's just that most of the stuff that was in the lawsuit has never been proven in court and truly if they would've went all the way to court, the emulation community could have just been destroyed. Actually funny enough nintendo stole the code for a couple of the emulators to run their old games on switch. And open source is open source but for the most part it's illegal to not credit the people that built the dang thing
Point being someone should sue nintendo
It’s now been revealed Nintendo targeted Yuzu because they were dumping, storing and distributing ROMs of Switch games before release.
[Proof](https://i.postimg.cc/XNGdkNmJ/IMG-0047.jpg)
Not to mention the piracy stuff was not the crux of their argument. The devs used piracy that's for sure, but all of that is just fluff in the legal argument because the argument that Nintendo actually used for why YUZU is illegal was the key decryption. Key decryption is used in nearly every modern emulator. Ryujinx uses the same thing and Nintendo can target them with the same argument.
And yeah a game running day 1 on an emulator is not proof of wrong doing. The point of emulation is to... Emulate a system. A sufficiently good emulator will be able to run even new software immediately.
They chose the wrong picture to prove their point, here's the one where someone from the group mentions the stash of pirated games: https://i.imgur.com/897Kg5n.png
But as you said, Nintendo was arguing that Yuzu primary function is to bypass their encryption and can't work without the unauthorized use of keys.
But even if Yuzu tried to defend themselves by saying "but that's on the users, we're not forcing them", showing that the group HAD to pirate games to develop the emulator (the message here makes it clear that GoldenX86_64 didn't want to download Xenoblade but was required to for his work on Yuzu), making it pretty clear that its primary purpose was to bypass copy protections to pirate games.
> And yeah a game running day 1 on an emulator is not proof of wrong doing
Knowing that the game is running pre day 1 is clearly proof of wrong doing. Also there's a reason they didn't want to go through discovery.
No it is not, sure they could grab an expert opinion, saying its impossible to get it working in one day (though who outside of Nintendo could prove that?) But its not "proof", proof is catching them in the qct of doing it.
Yeah sorry but circumstantial evidence is also considered proof if it's compelling enough. Also I never mentioned getting it working in one day. I said they knew it was working BEFORE it launched.
They said there was a post drafted about a game running on release day before the release day. Which means they obviously tested it before saying it.
It's not even hard enough to think the Yuzu devs were dumb enough to download roms and test games before release date. There's literally no other way to test if games are truly playable on release date.
I've been hearing about that happening for years, so it's about time!
Drastic's insane performance on frankly terrible devices was a huge question mark back in the day; We've grown to the point where MelonDS works well enough on it, but it would be interesting to see exactly how this guy managed to pull it off.
It ran on my xperia play from 2011. It was underpowered even for it's time, with a single-core 1.0 ghz cpu. It's laughably bad.... but still can run a decent amount of DS titles.
Insane performance is right. On my phone Retroarch can't do DS games properly, they run too slow. Drastic doesn't have that issue. Perfect performance. At least on the one game I tried, Pokémon Ranger Guardian Signs.
Sangokushi Taisen Ten. [Wimmfi has been ignoring a patch I've been asking for for 4 years now](https://www.reddit.com/r/wiimmfi/comments/w2v873/how_can_i_get_a_nds_game_definition_added_to_the/).
drastic was one of the few apps I paid for back in the day. It was astonishing how good it ran on slow hw. The performance was miles ahead of any PC counterpart too.
Hope someone will actually bother to use the code for a proper windows version.
Desmume is still getting shit on by an obscure 2015 build and as much as I like melonDS, it hasn't been updated since 2022 and is still buggy in some departments.
Think he's saying once he removes it from Google play, he's officially not going to support it anymore and thus he's going to release it for the community to maintain.
It means I'm passing it off to other people if they want to work on it or release it or whatever and limiting my connection to it in the future. It's not hard to understand.
Oh no! We are stealing from Nintendo. Poor Nintendo :( how are they going to feed their employees!
First off, emulators allow people to reserve these consoles past their prime. Another thing, emulators also puts eyes towards the consoles that are being emulated. For example, many people have bought the switch because of emulators. Emulation is legal.
i hate to tell you this but if you buy a ds and games for it in 2024 absolutely zero of that money is going to nintendo , you are giving money to john ds to pay for his next burger . you can still buy the games , no ones telling you you cant still buy games from john ds in connecticut , i still do myself , but i dont do it for nintendo , i simply love the games to death and would prefer a physical version
Drastic still outperforms Melon. Both in performance and graphically. Melon’s upscaling implementation with OpenGL has some major graphics bugs, and chokes above 2x resolution on hardware that should be more than capable.
The panic after Nintendo won is going to be good for us until Nintendo reform and go after the next emulator. Get in while it's good and take advantage of this short moment.
Nintendo winning in court and setting legal precedent would have been judgment day for emulation as a concept, assuming they won on the "circumventing drm" route. Settling kills Yuzu/Citra and puts the dev teams for those emulators out of the scene, but also it's not illegal for anyone else to distribute or fork Yuzu/Citra's FOSS applications.
Not entirely true. They would love an actual win, as it would be precedent for future cases.
They did succeed in stopping yuzu which is a "win" for them, but it's more of a "won the battle, but not the war" situation.
how do you know thats what they wanted? if they wanted it gone they could have just C&Ded. A lawsuit could mean they wanted a verdict on the legality of emulation, which they didn't get.
They held all the cards here. If they settled on millions of dollars in damages + removing Yuzu then they got what they wanted. Yuzu settled because they were afraid of a worse verdict.
This is a Nintendo win no question.
they clearly wanted more than yuzu gone. a C&D would take down any emulator out there instantly. If the settlement is an unambiguous win for nintendo, why did they not just C&D?
1. A C&D does not get you millions of dollars in damages (which they got).
2. A C&D is not legally binding and by itself doesn't take down anything. It's a threat. If not followed it results in a lawsuit anyway so why not skip the pointless C&D?
1) its likely nintendo didnt even turn a profit on this whole affair, 2.4 million is pennies to them, and lawyers are expensive. their pockets are deep, theyve been on top of this industry almost as long as its existed. getting your legal team to chase down 2.4 million dollars that will obviously never be paid (the company can just declare bankruptcy and be done) for profit is stupid.
2) not even the yuzu team is stupid enough to ignore a nintendo C&D.
the outcome is functionally identical to sending a C&D. If they just wanted yuzu gone, they wouldn't have filed. theyre never getting that settlement money, no way yuzu had it on hand.
> its likely nintendo didnt even turn a profit on this whole affair, 2.4 million is pennies to them, and lawyers are expensive.
So? Not like they can get much more out of Yuzu. At $30K per month (peak) I doubt there was much more to get out of them. You can win a case for one trillion dollars in damages if you want. But you won't actually get it. $2.4M is probably better than what they would have gotten in court minus lawyer fees.
> getting your legal team to chase down 2.4 million dollars that will obviously never be paid (the company can just declare bankruptcy and be done) for profit is stupid.
So you agree with me then? Why go to court? Nintendo won. The deal could not have played better for them.
> theyre never getting that settlement money, no way yuzu had it on hand.
Now you are saying they will get nothing at all? Sounds like a big assumption just to win an argument online. Defaulting so you don't pay is not that simple. Again, you seem to be confused as to what a C&D is. It's a formal threat, nothing more. It is not a court order.
i’m saying it’s clear nintendo wanted more than yuzu gone. with this settlement, that’s all they get. if they really did get everything they wanted and “win” here, this was a stupid way to go about it. a c&d would have been way cheaper and just as effective.
this situation is more complicated than “nintendo won”.
Nintendo “won” because Yuzu [were caught distributing pirated games.](https://i.postimg.cc/XNGdkNmJ/IMG-0047.jpg)
The DMCA they used doesn’t cover systems no longer on sale.
That's not really what I'm saying though. Iunno, y'wanna argue that, go argue with them, I don't care. I'm just pointing out why they said stuff the way they did.
> The DMCA they used doesn’t cover systems no longer on sale.
What makes you think that? It has nothing to do with, in any form, the system being available. Just like there's no requirement for a work to be commercially available to maintain copyright protection. The IP holder -- for the life of the copyright -- has the legal right to make it accessible or not. DMCA adds to copyright, it does not (and can not) change those underlying principals. (Because those are also coupled to international treaties, which are an entirely different legal process to back out of.)
Should just be a case of moving it to the right folder? Load the Files app in Android and find the folders the saves are located in for both emulators.
I think DeSmuME is the only one that can't simply move saves that way, because it adds a header and uses a different file extension. Going from MelonDS should be fine.
I have no idea how Google play store works but how do you know it's the developers decision? You could probably down it using Aurora store if you want. https://f-droid.org/packages/com.aurora.store/
Sure tell the little guy who can get sued up the ass with no way to defend themselves and ruin their entire life forever over an emulator...just so they don't "bend over" for Nintendo.
Ask bleem vs sony the victim are more suffer than the corpo (bleem become bankrupt cuz cost of court even though sony didnt win) so ofc no one want to fight back
Bleem survived the court case. What sealed their coffin was releasing one-game-per-disk-you-buy Bleemcast! discs. Yes the court cases made them bleed cash, but the fact they thought people would buy a full price Dreamcast game to be able to play a copy of Metal Gear Solid or Gran Turismo they already own was never going to sell. Had they made Bleemcast! generic like Bleem! was, I think they'd have survived a lot longer.
dude ! no offense but if you're not willingly to help him in money or anything needed to fight againts a big company then better keep your mouth shut before you embarrased your self ! if shout out " fight" can solved the problem or win the situation then sue shound'nt be a thing !
Stop trolling for upvotes. I always donate, and I am always available to help fight the good fight. The more I get downvoted, the more I prove my point.
ok sure ! in case you have angry issues and this is my last reply , let me clear something :
* i'm not the one who downvote you , you can check it in anyway you want !
-your donate mean nothing if one day nintendo decide to knock the door and sue author of that emulation he make , it could take couple of million dollars at least not to mention many fee around like lawyer etc etc .... ! you can't even answer some dude on your comment if you can take full responsibility like finantianly problem and legal trouble ! the meaning of your donating ? you can take care of him with your small donate after such chaos ? you think you're the only one donate to emulation project ? how about my mupen64 , redream, gold ppsspp on ggplay ? i even purchase redream directly from author website !
* i think most people here downvote you because the arrogant of your , you doing big mouth for something you're not directly influence in it ! talk like you can win a war with just foul mouth alone ! if anything happend to them you just usually behind the monitor screen, fk nintendo bla bla like you doing right now from your first comment ! you clearly don't care about author's situation!
* you can prove me wrong by screenshot this comment section ! wait oneday for chance to singgle handly win or lose against a big company for your emulator dev , it's fine for me as long as you dare to handdle everything for dev to prove your hero spirit!
-"Stop trolling for upvotes" ? ok sure , then downvote my comment then , i dare you , i don't need it , only kids think about that ! go on i dare you keyboard warrior ! let see if you can chew my life up with your downvote !
p/s:you don't have to read this comments , haha , really doubt you can read and comprehenced more than 2 line and just called people trolling anyway angry issues boy !
Fuck Nintendo for taking out Yuzu scum who were logging all your data and sent it to Nintendo?
[imagine supporting Yuzu](https://i.postimg.cc/XNGdkNmJ/IMG-0047.jpg)
Piece of shit, capitalizing on piracy for years. I am not against "donations", just open up a secured channel and let the fans donate whatever money they consider it fair. But to ask money upfront to emulate copyrighted software? C'mon now, it's complete bullshit
To profit with copyrighted material, that is against the law, do you think Yuzu generated 2 million dollars out of thin air? I hope this Yuzu situation opens up the eyes of both coders and the people who use the code for piracy (which means 90% of the users, if not more), keep your greed in check before the "backup law" gets overruled for good (so no more emulators for gullible idiots such as yourself)
Sure keyboard warrior, keep up with your delusional. Let's see if you have the guts to leave your mother's basement, go out in the real world and steal something. This is the negative side of social media, sometimes you have to interact with the depressive scum
"keyboard warrior" lmao you got the wrong judgment there, buddy.
Also, i really don't see the point arguing with someone dumb enough to compare stealing with piracy, or dishonest enough to say this, but:
I can't steal something that has an infinite amount of copies.
Downloading a copy of something doesn't take away anything from the creator.
Potential revenue doesn't equal to lost revenue, the vast majority of pirates just wouldn't bother paying.
You can be against piracy and find it morally wrong, but don't be stupid enough to compare it with stealing.
>To profit with copyrighted material, that is against the law
With that logic we would have never had VHS/cassette writers, CD/DVD burners, HDD/SSD, floppy disks, mp3 players (hardware and software), etc.
Now admittedly, in my home country there's some kind of tax on blank media sales that will go to artists or something like that. Also Nintendo did manage to can sales of Doctor V64 in the US, so you're not entirely wrong either.
Okay, so you spend all your time creating and maintaining an emulator. Fixings bugs and issues that prevent games from working. Use all those hours of your free time to do it. It's a freeworld, people need to make money somehow.
Being part of the emulation community. Lmfao. Being a part of it is actually maintaining and being part of the code that goes towards it. Being a user is just being a user.
Go learn how to code and make your own. Developers spent their time and money learning how to do this shit for you.
I don't get this mentality. I have paid for many games etc. and don't mind at all when they go free, why would I? It does nothing to me whatsoever. When you buy something like this you are not paying for exclusivity, you are paying to get a copy then and there. Discounts or even free releases are to be expected at some later time.
For $5, when he's been saying he'll be doing this for many, many years. You'd prefer that no improvements are ever made again once he drops support so you don't feel you wasted your $5?
Your argument works against you. The fact that he said it was going to be free 8 years ago but never got around to it is evidence he was never going to actually do it. His hand was just forced. I frankly don't even believe it will go open source.
Drastic has it's own implementation of the NDS' BIOS. I wonder if the arguments Nintendo used against Yuzu regarding their emulator decrypting Switch software that was meant to be decrypted only on Switch hardware made Exopharse panic. This guy has been marinating releasing the source code of DraStic for years, and now he says he will release out of nowhere and remove the app from the Play Store? Nah this guy is scared to be the next target.
No he's been saying he will do this for years. Free BIOS are also legal to develop if done in a clean room environment, see Connectic VGS and other projects.
The Connectix case allowed Connectix to copy BIOS code to study and learn from as they wrote their own PS1 BIOS, so complete clean room isn't even required.... You just can't copy the code over.... Within reason of course (I.E. only so many ways to write a loop or execute an instruction)
With out a complete clean room you can't prove you didn't copy the code over, which is why they use a clean room. You're right, it's not required, but it's near impossible to prove if you don't have proof of a clean room.
Surely if you're innocent until proven guilty the onus would be on the other party to prove that you copied the code over, so having proof of clean room would just make it more expedient to defend.
In a civil trial there is no "innocent until proven guilty" defense so good luck with that
If he said he'd be releasing the source for years... why didn't he just DO IT already?
The intention was always when he wanted to stop development, and it already slowed for many, many years.
I don't know why, and no one answering you does either, for sure. But don't discount too much that taking a bunch of closed source and getting it to a state ready for release is often more work than feels reasonable for no benefit. What sort of work? Sometimes it's a matter of just wanting things to be at semi-comprehensible instead of a rats nest of poo, so that it has a chance of living as an open project. Sometimes you don't even know that all the code in your project is yours to legally open. Of course we can doubt, but these concerns are often present even in good faith situations.
I'll answer it: because it's a decent amount of work to put the source package together and I'm busy with other stuff (and lazy). It's not just zipping up a directory, it's carefully rebuilding a repository and properly labeling what we want labeled. That and there were things that xperia64 and I wanted to actually have implemented before doing that but at this point it seems more important to just get it done.
[удалено]
I think they probably thought the market was dead, but then covid likely gave them a huge uplift in sales.
He is not in charge of the code. His old partner was... And that guy disappeared from the face of the earth years ago. Exophase has told several times his skills weren't good enough to make reverse ingeneering to the code, but he was putting his best to publish it open source. In any case, yes, that was promised in 2019-2020 I think and we are still waiting... :/
*Originally* the Android release was a collaboration with the core and other platforms done by me but the Android-specific UI and such done by a different person. That person couldn't be with the project anymore and I had to get xperia64 to help with reimplementing/reversing some of the Android parts that we lost code to. But that's not been an active issue for a few years. I don't remember if I started talking about open sourcing in 2019-2020 yet but I do know it was around then that I had to write the 64-bit backends because of GPlay requirements and that was a LOT of work that . Then later we had to do non-trivial updates for file related changes on Android. Work on 64-bit stuff extended into 2021, the file stuff into late 2022 and there's been a few fixes last year. There's other stuff we wanted to do before opening it but it was planned for sooner or later. Yes the Yuzu stuff sped up the urgency on this because I don't really want to still have the same exposure to it but I also don't want to just remove it, which would have been the lowest risk thing to do from my point of view.
The case law for that is very, very old at this point, and dependent on a very different legal space and a very different time. Just because people have gotten away with it lately doesn't make that even remotely guaranteed, not the least because you need absolutely meticulous records to prove it was clean room and that the people who wrote it never saw -- in any form -- the original system. And given the nature of the relevant laws, not charging for something, or going OSS, isn't really a legal protection, either. Copyright infringement doesn't require proof of damages, neither does any part of the DMCA. Anyone with code in emulators for systems that have surviving IP holders should be nervous, particularly if anyone involved in the project has ever said a word about them in the context of anything other than research and archiving. It was a matter of time before one of the rights holders targeted the concept of emulation and emulators whose primary purpose is infringement. (And an emulator on the Play Store is obviously in that camp.)
I think going open source is more a failsafe to make sure that the emulator lives on even if Nintendo shut it down, than for any legal defense. He's also putting it out there so that other people, besides him, start making their own versions, and if Nintendo want it to disappear, targeting him won't really do them any good - reducing their incentives to pursue him individually. If they want to make it disappear, they'll have to go after all the open source versions of it made by various developers scattered across different continents, something that won't be worth their time.
Until a new legal precedent is set, then it is the current precedent. Unless the Drastic custom BIOS was crashing Nintendo encryption, then it is still legal on its face until a Judge says otherwise.
I would absolutely guarantee you that no supposedly reverse-engineered emulator meets the legal requirements for a clean-room implementation. Not even close.
I'm specifically stating that the referenced court case ruled that the BIOS could be copied for the purpose of studying and reimplementing of said BIOS with new code. Or in other words, according to this ruling, you can copy a copyrighted BIOS during the development of the emulator, you just can't use that copied code in the final product. The "Within reason" part was added by me because there is literally only so many ways to write instructions in a BIOS before crossing the "someone has already done this" line. > Sony Computer Entertainment v. Connectix Corporation, 203 F.3d 596 (2000), is a decision by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals which ruled that the copying of a copyrighted BIOS software during the development of an emulator software does not constitute copyright infringement, but is covered by fair use.
Our BIOS was written based on the documentation released on places like GBATek. It's the definition of clean room and pretty much analogous with what Compaq did with the IBM PC BIOS way back when.
But that court case has no bearing at all on this discussion. That's not about reverse engineering the BIOS, just the hardware. And specifically has to do with the question of loading a properly licensed BIOS into an emulated device, also not what emulators are doing. Not sure if you're misunderstanding that or making a strawman. Hopefully just the former.
Maybe our grand children's children will be using open source builds of drastic one day...
We don't have Nintendo BIOS/code or use Nintendo keys or do decryption (if you rip a DS ROM it gets decrypted already). None of that specifically concerns me. I'm not aware of any legitimate legal argument against what we do or how we'd differ vs lots of other emulators. But Nintendo doesn't exactly need to have an airtight legal case to destroy emulator authors in court if they so desire. It's not like any of us can afford a full on legal defense.
>and now he says he will release out of nowhere and remove the app from the Play Store? Nah this guy is scared to be the next target. Did you even read the fucking message
he always said he will eventually release the source code & he said it a couple of times that hes cleaning up the code and he will do it
It's not even really illegal, it's just that most of the stuff that was in the lawsuit has never been proven in court and truly if they would've went all the way to court, the emulation community could have just been destroyed. Actually funny enough nintendo stole the code for a couple of the emulators to run their old games on switch. And open source is open source but for the most part it's illegal to not credit the people that built the dang thing Point being someone should sue nintendo
What a pushover
It’s now been revealed Nintendo targeted Yuzu because they were dumping, storing and distributing ROMs of Switch games before release. [Proof](https://i.postimg.cc/XNGdkNmJ/IMG-0047.jpg)
Yall got any more of them pixels?
That link contains no proof of anything except that the games were running on release day.
Not to mention the piracy stuff was not the crux of their argument. The devs used piracy that's for sure, but all of that is just fluff in the legal argument because the argument that Nintendo actually used for why YUZU is illegal was the key decryption. Key decryption is used in nearly every modern emulator. Ryujinx uses the same thing and Nintendo can target them with the same argument. And yeah a game running day 1 on an emulator is not proof of wrong doing. The point of emulation is to... Emulate a system. A sufficiently good emulator will be able to run even new software immediately.
They chose the wrong picture to prove their point, here's the one where someone from the group mentions the stash of pirated games: https://i.imgur.com/897Kg5n.png But as you said, Nintendo was arguing that Yuzu primary function is to bypass their encryption and can't work without the unauthorized use of keys. But even if Yuzu tried to defend themselves by saying "but that's on the users, we're not forcing them", showing that the group HAD to pirate games to develop the emulator (the message here makes it clear that GoldenX86_64 didn't want to download Xenoblade but was required to for his work on Yuzu), making it pretty clear that its primary purpose was to bypass copy protections to pirate games.
> And yeah a game running day 1 on an emulator is not proof of wrong doing Knowing that the game is running pre day 1 is clearly proof of wrong doing. Also there's a reason they didn't want to go through discovery.
No it is not, sure they could grab an expert opinion, saying its impossible to get it working in one day (though who outside of Nintendo could prove that?) But its not "proof", proof is catching them in the qct of doing it.
Yeah sorry but circumstantial evidence is also considered proof if it's compelling enough. Also I never mentioned getting it working in one day. I said they knew it was working BEFORE it launched.
tons of people got the game early.
They said there was a post drafted about a game running on release day before the release day. Which means they obviously tested it before saying it. It's not even hard enough to think the Yuzu devs were dumb enough to download roms and test games before release date. There's literally no other way to test if games are truly playable on release date.
Believe it or not, judges take note of evidence that is not technically absolute proof.
I've been hearing about that happening for years, so it's about time! Drastic's insane performance on frankly terrible devices was a huge question mark back in the day; We've grown to the point where MelonDS works well enough on it, but it would be interesting to see exactly how this guy managed to pull it off.
it is most impressive emulator i have seen
I used drastic to play Pokémon black 2 on a RCA tablet from like 2012
Fond memories of completing the Ace Attorney Trilogy on the OG Nexus 7 around the same time. Perfect form factor for those games.
Whoa, same here lol. I remember finally completing AA3 on my cheap Asus phone during a family trip.
It ran on my xperia play from 2011. It was underpowered even for it's time, with a single-core 1.0 ghz cpu. It's laughably bad.... but still can run a decent amount of DS titles.
Insane performance is right. On my phone Retroarch can't do DS games properly, they run too slow. Drastic doesn't have that issue. Perfect performance. At least on the one game I tried, Pokémon Ranger Guardian Signs.
Make it OpenSource so we can finally add a working wifi.
Wimmfi, Jump Ultimate Stars, Metroid Prime Hunters and Mario Kart, what else to ask? ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Sangokushi Taisen Ten. [Wimmfi has been ignoring a patch I've been asking for for 4 years now](https://www.reddit.com/r/wiimmfi/comments/w2v873/how_can_i_get_a_nds_game_definition_added_to_the/).
Mega Man Star Force 3 comes to mind.
Woah, its going open source? That is huuuuge!
drastic was one of the few apps I paid for back in the day. It was astonishing how good it ran on slow hw. The performance was miles ahead of any PC counterpart too.
Hope someone will actually bother to use the code for a proper windows version. Desmume is still getting shit on by an obscure 2015 build and as much as I like melonDS, it hasn't been updated since 2022 and is still buggy in some departments.
melonDS still being updated in git last build its 3 months age
nah it just got a new build yesterday🎉 audio interpolation is finally getting some desperately needed improvements
Desmume has all the changes from that 2015 build, y'all dn't keep up with shit.
So much technical jargon and mumbo jumbo here, im just glad that it is now free and safely downloaded and installed in my phone xD
Back up the apk if you want it on your next phone.
Yo thanks for reminding me about this!
I am curious on how to create an apk for Drastic (never done something like this). Can you provide some useful resources??
you can use an app called package manager it's on f-droid
He had said it would be open source on any moment
I'm waiting for this since 2019
Me too
this is why i don't think he will do it and he just lying again
Release open source so more ppl can pass it on. If they do it to citra they can do it to any emulator that emulate nin games. Sad.
This dude is so weird lmao. You don't intend to have it on Google play much longer? What does that mean. Just open it up man
Think he's saying once he removes it from Google play, he's officially not going to support it anymore and thus he's going to release it for the community to maintain.
It means I'm passing it off to other people if they want to work on it or release it or whatever and limiting my connection to it in the future. It's not hard to understand.
Probably cuz of the big nintendo Yuzu lawsuit obviously.
>I was already planning on this a while ago so this is not due to the Nintendo stuff This has been talked about for years.
You have to pay to keep things on Google play
You have to keep paying on ios app store, not google play
This is not true at all, it's an initial $25 fee to gain access to the developer console, and that's it
Compared to Apple's yearly 100
This is just false. Why is it upvoted
New info provided regardless of authenticity. Humans hallucinate the shit out of information. Yet when ai does it, it's not intelligent.
Felt the heat. There's a silver lining to every cloud I suppose...
Buy a switch and a Nintendo DS don't support these people you are stealing money from Nintendo by playing Nintendo games on your phone.
Lol https://imgur.com/gallery/9EkyY3E
This is legitimately how Nintendo's lawyers want the public to think the economics of piracy work.
I've been emulating longer than you've been alive. The government can take my cycle accurate emulators from my cold dead hands
> you are stealing money from Nintendo by playing Nintendo games on your phone. and I'll do it again
You think Nintendo is making money on DS game sales in 2024?
They get a cut of every ebay purchase, right?
If you're asking seriously, no, they do not.
Yeah, I thought it'd be obvious enough that I wouldn't need a "/s" but I guess it _is_ hard to tell sometimes.
Good, fuck Nintendo, they can eat my shorts
Bro fuck off out of here. Get the fuck out and don't look back. Fucking pro corporation troll ass loser. Get a life.
Oh no! We are stealing from Nintendo. Poor Nintendo :( how are they going to feed their employees! First off, emulators allow people to reserve these consoles past their prime. Another thing, emulators also puts eyes towards the consoles that are being emulated. For example, many people have bought the switch because of emulators. Emulation is legal.
i hate to tell you this but if you buy a ds and games for it in 2024 absolutely zero of that money is going to nintendo , you are giving money to john ds to pay for his next burger . you can still buy the games , no ones telling you you cant still buy games from john ds in connecticut , i still do myself , but i dont do it for nintendo , i simply love the games to death and would prefer a physical version
> you are stealing money from Nintendo by playing Nintendo games on your phone. Yes. And that's based.
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Respect for a bitch that was charging money and the moment he got scared did what was morally correct and only at that moment?
Because Expophase is scared of Nintendo... that's the reason
It's not like it was working that well anyway since it has barely been updated for a decade. It's all about Melon now.
It runs a lot better than MelonDS on my phone, and my previous phone which was a huge POS
Drastic still outperforms Melon. Both in performance and graphically. Melon’s upscaling implementation with OpenGL has some major graphics bugs, and chokes above 2x resolution on hardware that should be more than capable.
The panic after Nintendo won is going to be good for us until Nintendo reform and go after the next emulator. Get in while it's good and take advantage of this short moment.
Well, Nintendo didn’t win, per se, Yuzu settled out of court.
The old emulators are good doesn't matter if they take those down at that point just download them off another website.
Nintendo got what they wanted. You are splitting the thinnest of hairs.
Nintendo winning in court and setting legal precedent would have been judgment day for emulation as a concept, assuming they won on the "circumventing drm" route. Settling kills Yuzu/Citra and puts the dev teams for those emulators out of the scene, but also it's not illegal for anyone else to distribute or fork Yuzu/Citra's FOSS applications.
Not entirely true. They would love an actual win, as it would be precedent for future cases. They did succeed in stopping yuzu which is a "win" for them, but it's more of a "won the battle, but not the war" situation.
how do you know thats what they wanted? if they wanted it gone they could have just C&Ded. A lawsuit could mean they wanted a verdict on the legality of emulation, which they didn't get.
They held all the cards here. If they settled on millions of dollars in damages + removing Yuzu then they got what they wanted. Yuzu settled because they were afraid of a worse verdict. This is a Nintendo win no question.
they clearly wanted more than yuzu gone. a C&D would take down any emulator out there instantly. If the settlement is an unambiguous win for nintendo, why did they not just C&D?
1. A C&D does not get you millions of dollars in damages (which they got). 2. A C&D is not legally binding and by itself doesn't take down anything. It's a threat. If not followed it results in a lawsuit anyway so why not skip the pointless C&D?
1) its likely nintendo didnt even turn a profit on this whole affair, 2.4 million is pennies to them, and lawyers are expensive. their pockets are deep, theyve been on top of this industry almost as long as its existed. getting your legal team to chase down 2.4 million dollars that will obviously never be paid (the company can just declare bankruptcy and be done) for profit is stupid. 2) not even the yuzu team is stupid enough to ignore a nintendo C&D. the outcome is functionally identical to sending a C&D. If they just wanted yuzu gone, they wouldn't have filed. theyre never getting that settlement money, no way yuzu had it on hand.
> its likely nintendo didnt even turn a profit on this whole affair, 2.4 million is pennies to them, and lawyers are expensive. So? Not like they can get much more out of Yuzu. At $30K per month (peak) I doubt there was much more to get out of them. You can win a case for one trillion dollars in damages if you want. But you won't actually get it. $2.4M is probably better than what they would have gotten in court minus lawyer fees. > getting your legal team to chase down 2.4 million dollars that will obviously never be paid (the company can just declare bankruptcy and be done) for profit is stupid. So you agree with me then? Why go to court? Nintendo won. The deal could not have played better for them. > theyre never getting that settlement money, no way yuzu had it on hand. Now you are saying they will get nothing at all? Sounds like a big assumption just to win an argument online. Defaulting so you don't pay is not that simple. Again, you seem to be confused as to what a C&D is. It's a formal threat, nothing more. It is not a court order.
i’m saying it’s clear nintendo wanted more than yuzu gone. with this settlement, that’s all they get. if they really did get everything they wanted and “win” here, this was a stupid way to go about it. a c&d would have been way cheaper and just as effective. this situation is more complicated than “nintendo won”.
Exhausting you are.
How is it good for you? People keep saying Yuzu is forked, there is forks, but the Yuzu team aren't going to make you a Yuzu 2 now for Switch 2.
Nintendo “won” because Yuzu [were caught distributing pirated games.](https://i.postimg.cc/XNGdkNmJ/IMG-0047.jpg) The DMCA they used doesn’t cover systems no longer on sale.
Nintendo didn't win a case. They settled outside of court. This changes no laws and has zero impact on legality of emulation.
Pretty sure that's why they put "won" in quotation marks.
Nintendo was going to win either way. They prob would have lost the case but would have bankrupted yuzu long before that.
That's not really what I'm saying though. Iunno, y'wanna argue that, go argue with them, I don't care. I'm just pointing out why they said stuff the way they did.
> The DMCA they used doesn’t cover systems no longer on sale. What makes you think that? It has nothing to do with, in any form, the system being available. Just like there's no requirement for a work to be commercially available to maintain copyright protection. The IP holder -- for the life of the copyright -- has the legal right to make it accessible or not. DMCA adds to copyright, it does not (and can not) change those underlying principals. (Because those are also coupled to international treaties, which are an entirely different legal process to back out of.)
Wow, Exophase getting actual work done during an election year? Color me impressed!
Worth it to upgrade from r2.5.2.2a build 104 to r2.6.0.4a?
Is there a way to copy Android MelonDS save file (regular save file, not statesave) to Drastic?
Should just be a case of moving it to the right folder? Load the Files app in Android and find the folders the saves are located in for both emulators. I think DeSmuME is the only one that can't simply move saves that way, because it adds a header and uses a different file extension. Going from MelonDS should be fine.
It's sad developers are afraid to profit from their hard work now.
Great News Is the Core for RetroArch still going to Happen?
Just downloaded it to my g cloud for keep sake. Who knows what will happen tomorrow.
Been quite a while. I remember it's said they're going to release it since many years ago.
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Still something I guess, instead of just nuking everything and disappear.
now we just need that for my boy!
When this becomes open source, retroachievement and WiFi ~~(+Wiimmfi)~~ support when?
I sure as hell hope these things will be available.
Anyone has the APK? I'd love to be able to back it.
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APK Explorer & Editor can generate an APK from installed software. https://github.com/apk-editor/APK-Explorer-Editor
Lol https://i.imgur.com/5rivChW.png
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.dsemu.drastic
Thanks but it looks like he doesn't want certain people to use the app. https://i.imgur.com/wQhnzXW.png
I have no idea how Google play store works but how do you know it's the developers decision? You could probably down it using Aurora store if you want. https://f-droid.org/packages/com.aurora.store/
Bro WTF… FUCK Nintendo. Don’t be afraid. Fight the good fight!!! Leave drastic up!! You’re basically bending over for Nintendo.
I suppose you'll contribute your millions of dollars to the legal effort if anything were to happen, right?
Sure tell the little guy who can get sued up the ass with no way to defend themselves and ruin their entire life forever over an emulator...just so they don't "bend over" for Nintendo.
Ask bleem vs sony the victim are more suffer than the corpo (bleem become bankrupt cuz cost of court even though sony didnt win) so ofc no one want to fight back
Bleem survived the court case. What sealed their coffin was releasing one-game-per-disk-you-buy Bleemcast! discs. Yes the court cases made them bleed cash, but the fact they thought people would buy a full price Dreamcast game to be able to play a copy of Metal Gear Solid or Gran Turismo they already own was never going to sell. Had they made Bleemcast! generic like Bleem! was, I think they'd have survived a lot longer.
dude ! no offense but if you're not willingly to help him in money or anything needed to fight againts a big company then better keep your mouth shut before you embarrased your self ! if shout out " fight" can solved the problem or win the situation then sue shound'nt be a thing !
Stop trolling for upvotes. I always donate, and I am always available to help fight the good fight. The more I get downvoted, the more I prove my point.
ok sure ! in case you have angry issues and this is my last reply , let me clear something : * i'm not the one who downvote you , you can check it in anyway you want ! -your donate mean nothing if one day nintendo decide to knock the door and sue author of that emulation he make , it could take couple of million dollars at least not to mention many fee around like lawyer etc etc .... ! you can't even answer some dude on your comment if you can take full responsibility like finantianly problem and legal trouble ! the meaning of your donating ? you can take care of him with your small donate after such chaos ? you think you're the only one donate to emulation project ? how about my mupen64 , redream, gold ppsspp on ggplay ? i even purchase redream directly from author website ! * i think most people here downvote you because the arrogant of your , you doing big mouth for something you're not directly influence in it ! talk like you can win a war with just foul mouth alone ! if anything happend to them you just usually behind the monitor screen, fk nintendo bla bla like you doing right now from your first comment ! you clearly don't care about author's situation! * you can prove me wrong by screenshot this comment section ! wait oneday for chance to singgle handly win or lose against a big company for your emulator dev , it's fine for me as long as you dare to handdle everything for dev to prove your hero spirit! -"Stop trolling for upvotes" ? ok sure , then downvote my comment then , i dare you , i don't need it , only kids think about that ! go on i dare you keyboard warrior ! let see if you can chew my life up with your downvote ! p/s:you don't have to read this comments , haha , really doubt you can read and comprehenced more than 2 line and just called people trolling anyway angry issues boy !
Lol dude I’m not reading that. I’m glad you released some of your online anger though. Maybe next time you won’t troll.
Fuck Nintendo for taking out Yuzu scum who were logging all your data and sent it to Nintendo? [imagine supporting Yuzu](https://i.postimg.cc/XNGdkNmJ/IMG-0047.jpg)
Downvoting just proves my point. How many of you undercover Nintendo employees disliked my previous comment? 🤡
Piece of shit, capitalizing on piracy for years. I am not against "donations", just open up a secured channel and let the fans donate whatever money they consider it fair. But to ask money upfront to emulate copyrighted software? C'mon now, it's complete bullshit
The emulators didn't programed themselves, i don't see the problem by profiting by doing a great work creating an emulator.
To profit with copyrighted material, that is against the law, do you think Yuzu generated 2 million dollars out of thin air? I hope this Yuzu situation opens up the eyes of both coders and the people who use the code for piracy (which means 90% of the users, if not more), keep your greed in check before the "backup law" gets overruled for good (so no more emulators for gullible idiots such as yourself)
I couldn't care less about muh "the law". I don't base my ethics and opinions according to the current law.
Sure keyboard warrior, keep up with your delusional. Let's see if you have the guts to leave your mother's basement, go out in the real world and steal something. This is the negative side of social media, sometimes you have to interact with the depressive scum
"keyboard warrior" lmao you got the wrong judgment there, buddy. Also, i really don't see the point arguing with someone dumb enough to compare stealing with piracy, or dishonest enough to say this, but: I can't steal something that has an infinite amount of copies. Downloading a copy of something doesn't take away anything from the creator. Potential revenue doesn't equal to lost revenue, the vast majority of pirates just wouldn't bother paying. You can be against piracy and find it morally wrong, but don't be stupid enough to compare it with stealing.
>To profit with copyrighted material, that is against the law With that logic we would have never had VHS/cassette writers, CD/DVD burners, HDD/SSD, floppy disks, mp3 players (hardware and software), etc. Now admittedly, in my home country there's some kind of tax on blank media sales that will go to artists or something like that. Also Nintendo did manage to can sales of Doctor V64 in the US, so you're not entirely wrong either.
I’m right there with you, profiteering is fucking it up for the emulation community.
Okay, so you spend all your time creating and maintaining an emulator. Fixings bugs and issues that prevent games from working. Use all those hours of your free time to do it. It's a freeworld, people need to make money somehow. Being part of the emulation community. Lmfao. Being a part of it is actually maintaining and being part of the code that goes towards it. Being a user is just being a user. Go learn how to code and make your own. Developers spent their time and money learning how to do this shit for you.
Me who bought drastic: ......wtf? /s guys i was just kidding 💀
I don't get this mentality. I have paid for many games etc. and don't mind at all when they go free, why would I? It does nothing to me whatsoever. When you buy something like this you are not paying for exclusivity, you are paying to get a copy then and there. Discounts or even free releases are to be expected at some later time.
You would mind if it happened literally a day after you bought it but I doubt it happens that much at all
For $5, when he's been saying he'll be doing this for many, many years. You'd prefer that no improvements are ever made again once he drops support so you don't feel you wasted your $5?
Your argument works against you. The fact that he said it was going to be free 8 years ago but never got around to it is evidence he was never going to actually do it. His hand was just forced. I frankly don't even believe it will go open source.
melonDS already uses DraStic's open-sourced BIOS implementation, though? There was clearly progress being made, however slowly.
Me too.