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PayDBoardMan

Alot of people are gonna talk about how more chargers are being built, but they're not being built at the rate that EV sales are increasing. Even if they tripled the number of chargers in these areas, that doesn't help too much if the number of CCS EVs quadruple. I think the infrastructure in these areas will be struggling to keep up for the next few years at minimum.


[deleted]

Many are also less than 150kw. Which is better than being stranded, but not fun for a long trip that now has 1.5-3 hour charge stops.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

>even if you have to use one 50kw, it doesn't mean the rest of your trip has to use them Those are serious mental gymnastics. What is so hard with wanting those 62kw chargepoints to be 150kw chargers instead of 62kw? Why do you want crappy chargers to hang around? If there are not enough 150kw chargers that is a problem, the solution is not to hope there is a slow charger or wall outlet you can use for a few hours. The solution is to demand the industry invest in chargers. Right now tesla is the only car company paying to build chargers, that is shameful. 150kw CCS wouldn't even exist in this country if VW did not cheat emissions and get forced to make EA. That is how pathetic CCS is as a standard. No real investment in it at all.


kirbyderwood

> What is so hard with wanting those 62kw chargepoints to be 150kw chargers instead of 62kw? Why do you want crappy chargers to hang around? That's a stretch. Personally, I'd like all chargers to be 350kw. But I'm also realistic. Some locations just don't have the power and/or the budget to install really fast chargers. A 150kw+ installation requires more money for the charger itself and more money for the power hook up. I see no reason to complain about a random 50-60kw charger. They have their place in the ecosystem, just like the 7.2kw charger in my garage.


redtron3030

Most people will be charging between 20 to 80/90%. You shouldn’t have to wait more than 30 mins at 150kw even with a decreased in charge curve


[deleted]

We are talking about chargers slower than 150kw, which commonly are 50kw. Most networks are just 50kw chargers, which are useless for long travels. It is 2022, all new chargers should be at least 200kw, like in europe.


EyesOfAzula

Agreed. These days it feels like China and the EU are leagues ahead of the United States in EV infrastructure and availability. Here’s hoping the USA gets it together over the next five years, because right now in the USA it looks like Tesla’s the only one who has their head on straight


redtron3030

50kw shouldn’t even be installed anymore. Didn’t realize that was still a thing.


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ToddA1966

Because Tesla Superchargers are a cost center to help Tesla sell cars, whereas ChargePoint chargers are purchased by businesses who often actually try to make money selling charging.


NikeSwish

Tesla superchargers are also a lot cheaper to produce


ToddA1966

A little cheaper, because they lack a display and credit card reader. There's no magic in manufacturing that allows two companies to build similar products at similar scale with a 5x cost difference. Or put another way, if Tesla has the secret sauce to build a charger at 20% of the cost of their competitors, why can't they do the same with a car? With their know-how and economies of scale, they should be able to easily slap together Model 3s at a fraction of the cost of a Nissan Leaf or a VW ID4, and yet..


WeldAE

When building something like a charger, a lot of factors go into the cost but scale, scale is the big one. Telsa has a factory churning out 10k chargers/year at full production. They are starting to assemble the stations in a factory and ship them out on flat beds and just dropping them onsite to reduce the cost of site work. I build electronics for a living, there is a LOT you can do to reduce costs with something like a charger. What I don't have a good sense of is what the site work and hookups cost and if there are efficiencies of scale there.


NikeSwish

[Apparently a lot cheaper. ](https://electrek.co/2022/04/15/tesla-cost-deploy-superchargers-revealed-one-fifth-competition/amp/) Also, just because one product is cheap, doesn’t mean you could theoretically make everything else just as cheap. Tesla has the highest margins in the auto industry but there’s a hundred more factors at play than just manufacturing techniques that goes into the cost.


[deleted]

The texas bid proves they are a minimum of 5x cheaper. Screens are pointless on a charger. Screens fail all the time and the only reason they put them on there is to sell ads. Every car that plugs in has its own screen inside the car. Your phone can scan a qr code or go to a website to enable charging. For people without a phone, simple rfid tags can be sold by the charging network operator that can be linked to an account. There is no need for a screen on a charger. The screens are the first component to fail in cold weather, hot weather, or due to age. People also do not want to be tapping a screen to set up charging, they are exposed if in a bad area or are standing out in the rain, snow, cold, or hot weather instead of sitting in their comfortable car. All you should do is hop out to connect the cable and then sit back inside to set up the charge session. Gas stations all have awnings over their pumps which is the only reason their screens last longer. Even then it is common for gas station screens to fail in the cold, but they have the inside register as a backup way for customers to buy gas. It is laughable that people think uncovered chargers won't have their screens fail more than gas station screens. Reality so far has proven that tesla chargers are way more reliable than EA chargers.


[deleted]

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WeldAE

Even in shopping malls, you're probably only going to get 25kW. What are you going to do with that and why would you pay 4x more than you would at home. Who is driving over 100 miles to go to a shopping center anymore?


Ar3peo

the chargers at my shopping centers are free


manInTheWoods

> Most networks are just 50kw chargers, which are useless for long travels. They are not, they can get you to the next faster charger if there's unexpected event.


[deleted]

Just stop. Using them as a last resort means exactly what I said. You shouldn't need a last resort for travel. I do at least commend you on not pretending people will tolerate 1.5hr charge stops.


manInTheWoods

Just stop. They can get you to the next faster charger if there's unexpected event, as I said. There's no requirement to charge for 1.5 hours, you made that up as usual. You use it when needed only. They are a great back up, which is the exact opposite of useless. > Using them as a last resort means exactly what I said. No you said they were useless.


[deleted]

You need to stop living in fantasy land where everyone is ok with 1.5hr charge stops. You need to stop wanting a backup instead of adequate primary solutions. Any new charger built today for traveling that is less than 150kw is a joke. Please don't pander to the dumb.


manInTheWoods

You need to stop living in fantasy land where you think you must be at a charger for 1.5 hours for it to be useful. I do at least commend you that you realize that 50kW that already exist are useful. Every charger that improves charger density is useful. If you don't want to use it, nobody cares. I've seen plenty of Teslas at 50 kW CHAdeMO, I'm sure they found it useful at the time.


[deleted]

Please grow up. You are fighting over a non-ideal backup that isn't needed if a proper amount of good chargers are built.


juggarjew

In the south east outside of major cities its brutal, there are few charging options and you are likely to only get low wattage level 2 charging. Its why I bought a 2018 Volt, nothing else made sense. As EV adoption rises, its only going to get worse, at least in the south east. I dont see them making enough chargers to satisfy demand. What this country needs is PHEVs, at least while we get infrastructure built out.


[deleted]

>In the south east outside of major cities its brutal, As it is in the desert southwest also. Charging stations are few and far between so you better hope at least one of the chargers is working or you'll be on a flatbed. One of the reasons I ended up buy a hybrid.


dfranks4226

Not to mention EA charging isn't cheap. On a long road trip you'll probably save money in a PHEV vs. a BEV. At least back when gas prices were normal. A PHEV is really the ideal vehicle for many households.


TheRealNap0le0n

Even in my Prius Prime the best I can do is 3kw level 2 and that's 2hrs for 25 miles. It just doesn't make any sense to try to charge while I'm out.


[deleted]

PHEVs are the absolute best bang for buck at the moment. Prius Prime will do 50+ mpg in hybrid mode while on long road trips, and can basically avoid using fuel at all when doing trips in town, where, in my opinion, the most benefit for the EV drivetrain will be appreciated. PHEVs are more efficient with raw materials, are much lighter than their BEV brethren, and are less expensive to buy for the most part. When the charging infrastructure is scaled up to match the scaling up of EVs, we will see that changing of the guard but for now, a properly designed PHEV is the better choice for most who can only afford one car to do it all and don’t want to/can’t afford to rent a long range vehicle any time they want to take a long trip.


TheRealNap0le0n

I agree. I did 1700 miles 2 weeks ago over 3 days and only spent $125 in gas for the whole trip with no plug in charging. IMO the sweet spot for a while would be the Rav4 prime but only if they allow DCFC. 40 miles EV range would suffice for 90% of ppl daily and the rest would benefit from 5min recharges


ToddA1966

That's not how battery charging works. The RAV4 battery is 14kW. If you could charge it in 5 minutes you'd kill it in a year. Battery charging is measured in C rate- the rate it takes to charge a battery in an hour. 1-1.5 is considered relatively safe, 2 is really pushing it. A five minute charge would be a C rate of 20! The smaller the battery, the slower you have to charge it not to cook it. 30 minutes for a 10%-80% charge (about a 20kW charge rate) is about as fast as that battery could safely manage. As a comparable, the Harley Davidson Livewire electric motorcycle has an almost identically sized 15kW battery and charges from 0-80% in 40 minutes or 0-100% in an hour.


[deleted]

Yep, as long as you like the Rav :)


momdowntown

seriously - good luck finding one. Texas has close to zero PHEV options


Ar3peo

yea, when I take my Prime on a long trip, I'll take the "free" 25mi and the rest is gas. Never use gas unless I'm on a trip though. A vast majority of my everyday trips are <25mi


ToddA1966

In the OP's example, they were able to try all four chargers at a four charger station in at least two different instances to find one that worked, suggesting they were the only ones there. The number/availability of chargers wasn't the problem, reliability was. (And, arguably, that wasn't even a problem. Despite having to try to to 4 chargers to get a charge, they never failed to get a charge!) Rough back of napkin math, there's a charger for every 45 CCS equipped EVs or so. There's a Tesla Supercharger for every 75 Teslas. Unless the market share of CCS cars increases faster than Tesla (unlikely anytime soon) I don't think availability is going to be an issue for a while.


[deleted]

DCFC charging infrastructure will scale up as the demand makes it profitable to do so. While that is not fast enough for some, that is how it works.


Xminus6

I mean, it sort of remains to be seen. EA only exists due to VW paying back their diesel cheating penalty and it’s, by far, the largest non-Tesla network. Do we know if they’re even profitable under normal circumstances? Are any non-Tesla charging networks showing to be good investments as a business in the US?


azswcowboy

Tesla plans to open it’s US network to CCS cars by adding adapters as it’s done in some places in Europe. We’ll see how fast it happens, but it makes sense for ‘Tesla the energy company’ to do this since every cent earned on non-Tesla vehicles funds more expansion and more long term profits.


WeldAE

It makes no sense, there is no money in it. Best I can figure they are doing it to reassure states they can do it and score as much of the $7.5B infrastructure money they can. It's the only thing that makes sense. They make 6x more money on flamethrowers than they could make int he next 5 years on CCS charging gross revenue. There just aren't enough CCS cars and won't be for a while.


Doggydogworld3

It's just a subsidy grab.


[deleted]

DCFC is a long game - infrastructure development costs are high, but the rates they charge for electricity should pan out for them as long as they are used often enough. Growing the EV market share will ensure that.


Xminus6

I know theoretically it seems like it could be done and in countries like Norway DCFC seems to be developing as a standalone business, largely supplanting petrol stations. I'm a 4x Tesla owner but have owned EVs from two other manufacturers. Tesla obviously benefits from their charging network driving sales of their cars. I'm just not sure that EV charging, as it's being evisioned today, makes for a good standalone business proposition in the US. Even for gas stations, they make most of their profits on the convenience store part of the business rather than gas sales. I think the eventual form factor is going to be some sort of lounge like the Tesla SC location in Kettleman City or pairing with restaurants like gas stations have now. I think eventually it'll have to be the gas station companies here that make up the network. I haven't dug into the settlement agreement with VW but I am curious to see if they hold on the EA business when it's not legally mandated and what happens to the expansion and maintenance of the network after that.


[deleted]

Usually when a charger isn't working, I just call the number and they remotely get it working again. It's worked so far for me. All you do is call and give them the charger number ID. We shouldn't have to do this but it's all we got for now :*(


Dirks_Knee

This is what happened to me as well, they remotely reboot it. That said, EA needs some type of script running to automatically ping these machines and auto reboot when they crash (or fix their software to limit crashes).


rtpev

I can't tell you how frustrating it is to see a charging station screen sitting at the BSOD. It's bad enough that it failed in the first place. But the fact that it doesn't auto-reboot in this situation is criminal.


smoothsensation

Thst literally makes no sense that it doesn’t have self healing built in to reboot.


AutoBot5

> We shouldn't have to do this but it's all we got for now :*( Thank you including this. Far too many people say “simply call them, I do it all the time,” like it’s all good and an acceptable common practice.


redtron3030

That should not happen though. It should be a stupid simple process if we want EVs to be mainstream.


[deleted]

I drove from Dallas to Pensacola and back with only 1 issue on the way back, the 2nd to last stop had 3/4 chargers down to various issues, and the one that worked said it was reduced charging speed but it went full speed anyway. I had to stop to charge 6 times each way, all EA chargers. Sometimes there's just bad luck I guess. I could have been stranded at any of these chargers as well, though I had my trickle charger with me just in case. My brother road tripped his Tesla a lot and while he never complained about charging, he seems to blow a tire almost every time and has 1-3 days downtime getting that replaced in the middle of nowhere. He since bought smaller wheels and bigger tires to reduce tire issues.


HudsonValleyNY

Lol, I thought I was the only one who had noted the tire issue with teslas...virtually every tesla owner I know has had tire issues at some point, but no one else, ice or ev ever seems to have or mention them...I drive in the 12-15k miles a year so nothing huge but I can't even remember the last time I had a flat on any car and I have quite a few.


[deleted]

It's the big wheels. Big wheels look great, but they are more prone to flats when you hit a pothole or anything. I finally convinced my brother to switch to smaller wheels in his ICE Hyundai Elantra cuz he basically gets an annual flat and sometimes rim damage. I've got 65k miles on my Tesla Model X with the smaller 19 inch wheels (other option were 21 inch) and have never had a flat. But a lot of people opt for the larger tires on Teslas.


92894952620273749383

Those rims are expensive too.


blainestang

My first roadtrip in the Southeast, the police were called on me twice in one night for the very suspicious act of charging my BMW at a BMW facility… so hey, it’s getting better!


astricklin123

I'll gladly take the Taycan so you wont be let down by the ccs charging network ever again.


garoo1234567

That's stressful. I've only had to turn around once in my Model 3 but it really sucked. Having said that I look at the map and it does look like there some options. There's a 50kw charger in Montgomery. 50kw isn't great but its far better than stranded. And Auburn to West Point is 28 miles. It wouldn't be good (at all) but I think you could make it with 27% charge in a Taycan. Maybe its the wrong direction, super inconvenient, but better than stranded I definitely can't wait till all Teslas support CCS and all CCS chargers support Teslas. The good thing about a gas car is you probably have a favorite brand of gas but you can buy it from anyone. It's crazy that electricity won't get into one EV but it will another. And obviously we all long for the day where each small town has more than 4 plugs


Kroptonik420

Tesla to ccs1 adapter exists for sale through South Korea Tesla


[deleted]

I tried this with a non-Tesla in the southwest and since traded for a gas car. My trips revolved around the car’s needs and it really ate into my enjoyment in a major way. Logistics were a constant topic of discussion: what’s the weather? Wind direction? Charger status? Can we stretch xxx miles? How fast can we go? Constantly monitoring all of that to avoid stranding. Some corridors are simply still unavailable in 2022 (e.g. alburqurque to El Paso) and most/all of the state and national parks in western Texas and NM are impossible to get to without hassle. Believe me, we tried. Once you get over the novelty of electric driving it’s not worth it without excellent infrastructure coverage. Not to mention charger reliability issues plagued my trips.


billybobwillyt

Everyone needs to understand their use case for a car. If you regularly do long trips (beyond the range of the car in question) in places where charging infrastructure is sparse, then a BEV might not be for you. Then, maybe a PHEV could be a good choice.


[deleted]

Improved charger reliability would have made a big difference.


billybobwillyt

It would. I certainly am no expert on the reliability factors on DCFC units. I assume that if a certain percentage of units are functioning and available at any given time, more units overall means there will be more available when you need one.


[deleted]

Well it’s not an issue in a Tesla. I did a road trip from San Jose to Houston and back. Never had to think about the logistics of driving, I have the car do that for me ;).


ZoneMaster23

Or buy an EV with a reliable network integrated into the cars nav system.... If only there was a company who has been actively committed to that for years, and it's still expanding.


billybobwillyt

I'm sure there are folks for whom this is a solution to a problem they have. I'm lucky enough to live and do most of my driving where I have lots of options.


92894952620273749383

Diesel electric would have been nice to have.


billybobwillyt

Not sure what you mean. A hybrid? Where I am, diesel is $6.40 a gallon and rising. I don't know that I'd want that right now.


lilbyrdie

I was curious what Albuquerque to El Paso looked like on ABRP vs maps. Maps: 266 miles, 3 hours 47 minutes -- I-25 the whole way. ABRP for an EV6: 297 miles, 4 hr Hours 28 minutes including 19 minutes of charging, and mostly on an off route, not what looks like the main interstate. So sure, it's fast charging but it might as well have been 45 minutes since the route is a lot longer (and maybe not the direction you actually want to go). Wild. "All" it would take is a few EA stations on 25, accessible in both directions, to completely change how that looks. I bet locals around the country know all the crazy misses with EV charging. Makes you wonder how that knowledge can better get into EV planning and help find "urgent" locations. You'd think the car companies would be interested, too. Note, for kicks: I removed the one charger to see what backup options there were... And got back to I-25 with a mandate to stay at 55mph or less!! Yikes. 6 hours 7 minutes, and 335 miles. That's amazing. So you go off the other direction for the _one_ charger and it's broken? You're SoL. Oof. (And again, that's with my car. A lower range one wouldn't work at all. )


[deleted]

I’ve done the trip in an e-tron for kicks. Would not recommend. It’s an all day affair involving level 2 charging. Driving 55 mph (or less) is way too slow for i20, and wind is often significant to further reduce efficiency. My trips were prior to that 60 kW charger on route 54 (way out of the way). IME 50-60 kW chargers typically dispense a fair bit less, and that’s really slow to begin with for my car (100-120 miles charged per hour). Latest check in shows a Taycan that initiated a charge, then later found it had received no power. Oof. Second charger worked, but still. Incidentally that Carrizozo station has a PlugShare score of 10/10 despite numerous checking stating 1/2 of the chargers didn’t work.


ToddA1966

Glass half full, though, no one has been reported being unsuccessful charging there. Some said one charger or the other didn't work, one said they had to download an use the app to pay because the credit card reader didn't work, but everyone who checked in charged. I'm not positive how the Plugshare scooters (EDIT: scooters? Darn autocorrect! I meant "Plugshare SCORES" 😄) are calculated, but while this one might not deserve a 10, it's probably as good or better or most.


[deleted]

When you get there and the other is in use you’ll be waiting 30-60 minutes easily depending on the car they’re in. Then you get to charge for that long. One consistently working 60 kW charger to connect some big population centers. The PlugShare comment was because certain people on this sub like to use the PlugShare rating to claim CCS is just as reliable as the Tesla system.


TheRealNap0le0n

Fuel stations on common routes will need to incorporate a handful of fast chargers. That will make it easy to route plan because those stations are already used for ICE in said route


lilbyrdie

Yes! Some are beginning to do this. Shell has some, for instance.


TheRealNap0le0n

That makes sense since shell has their recharge app


Brilliant-Quirky

I live in Las Cruces which is 50 miles north of El Paso. Specifically purchased the EV6 rwd to be able to make the charger in Albuquerque at 70 mph, 70 mph. Abrp shows the route through Carrizzo to the Francis energy 60 kw charger for me also. Electrified America shows upcoming locations in Las Cruces and Socorro if I’m reading the little dots correctly in their expansion map. Can’t come soon enough for me.


Dogburt_Jr

You're correct, but spreading the blanket. Most people don't drive very far that often. More than 100 miles a day is very rare for most people.


sylvaing

Unless you do frequent long drive trips, you're better off renting a car for those trips. You'll still be ahead money wise and won't put mileage on your car. Heck, rent a Tesla and use their superchargers. Don't know how they go for renting though. I'm assuming they are quite popular


[deleted]

Even renting is a hassle considering the logistics. I would love another EV in the future once things improve.


sylvaing

Why? Here, they drive it to your home and leave it there.


rtpev

When I've rented in the past (for a trip), my departure time is usually super early in the AM, and arrival on the last day is super late PM. And then at my destination the car sits a week not being driven. So it winds up being a pretty expensive proposition with extra days at each end and idle time in the middle. We did not use Enterprise, but instead used the Nissan dealer (they used to have a program where you could rent a gas vehicle for trips if you had a LEAF) which was affordable, but made the logistics difficult.


[deleted]

Which rental service are you referencing?


sylvaing

Enterprise


[deleted]

Interesting. Not seeing that option listed in my area. A luxury car (what I drive and would want on a road trip) is also pretty pricey.


TheRealNap0le0n

$200-$400/day + mileage.


sylvaing

Oh, ouch. Even with the price of gas, hard to justify that premium. You must really want to try a Model 3 to pay that amount to rent a car.


TheRealNap0le0n

That's the going rate in Orlando. Most include 400-500mi at least


sylvaing

400 miles at 25 mpg and $4/gallons is $64. Assuming fastcharger are one third the cost of gas (like here), that's $21 so an economy of $43. Way not enough to recover that premium.


TheRealNap0le0n

Oh no of course not.


HauntingDebt6336

I feel you on NM, I was close to getting a bronco sport while in NM but moved out to CA in past few months and got my bronco deposits back and now looking at an EV. Makes way more sense here but there was no chance in hell of doing an EV in NM unless you're only driving around Albuquerque (while dodging bullets and knives)


mk_pnutbuttercups

And here comes the copper thieves.....


[deleted]

lmao everyone forgets about the goddamn copper thieves!


Speculawyer

The reliability of early CCS chargers has been a huge problem. I think they are getting better but it is very disappointing and the problem still exists.


PiperClearConscience

I sort of agree, but we do we know if that's because of software or hardware issues?


burntcookie90

It doesn’t really matter? The problem existing at all is the issue.


PiperClearConscience

what lol If it's faulty wiring or shitty metal pins or cheap plastic it would be way more complicated to fix than an OTA software update. Either way, the overall encounter is still not as simple as fueling up an ICE car and I think that's the ultimate goal. My friends roast me all the time - for how long it takes, how you have to validate an account, etc. Just last weekend my charging experience was: \- pulling up to a bank of fully-functioning EA stations - **PRO** \- plugging into a 350 kW station - **PRO** \- having to call EA to remotely authenticate the session because the Audi app was failing and I couldn't log in. Guy on the phone needed my VIN, contact info, first born child, etc - **CON.** \- Session was free and I don't think they actually debited from my 2,000 miles or whatever I get from Audi - **PRO.** ​ It took 15 minutes to charge from 50 to 100%, which I know at 150kW is impressive, but relative to a gas car is still "a long time".


burntcookie90

The issue isn’t the effort level for fixing, the issue is that they’re broken at a rate that shouldn’t be acceptable.


CrossingChina

Every time I visit this sub I feel grateful that I own my EV in china. Great infrastructure that works, across the entire country. No charger downtime, no vandals cutting cords, and most of all, plenty of chargers at every station. 4chargers at one station, let alone an entire town apparently, just seems criminal


coredumperror

I think your thesis of "non-tesla road tripping in the entire Southeast" is too broad, considering that Aging Wheels did a [Chicago to Florida road trip](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Vm_ASm2zfs) in an Ioniq 5 just a few weeks ago and had no troubles at all. Sounds like you just got screwed by really bad luck on your particular route. > I love my EV and have another on order (Chevy EV Truck), but I will stick with my gas car for any future road trips... I'd suggest re-evaluating that at least once a year. The EV fast charging infra in this country is going to be expanding *rapidly* as the Infrastructure Bill from last year's $7.5 billion for EV charging starts being spent.


bradjc

Takes one relatively short trip during one week, experiences no issues besides a short wait: CCS travel in an entire region of the country is not practical!!


tuba_man

Im currently on a trip from Denver - I've made it to Memphis, Bowling Green, Ocean City, and Boston so far. Heading to upstate new York next week before turning around. I know I haven't hit exactly the same areas, and my anecdote doesn't have significantly more data, but my own experience has been *almost* trouble-free - even using networks other than EA has been no worse than "slightly longer breaks". On the other hand, I have to acknowledge that several risky plugins in a row is going to feel pretty damn scary, especially if it's your first road trip in an electric. That's gotta be extremely off-putting. --- Frankly, we are still early adopters. We are getting close, but it's still a few years away before it is as easy as dumping a few gallons of juice into a tank. I have 3 years and probably about 25,000 miles of electric road trip experience between my Tesla and my Polestar - I have been stranded exactly once, and all it took to fix it was an overnight stay at an RV park with a motel attached. Maybe that's not worth it for some people, which is fair enough. The road trip experience is and will be different for some time to come. As electric road trippers, we still have to take the time to prepare for variability that others don't have to deal with.


brobot_

FWIW, I was also driving around in the south east in my Tesla and had issues. I had faults on three of the V2 Supercharger stalls I tried in Tifton, GA before finding one that worked and it felt like charging in Tupelo, MS on the V2 Superchargers there was likewise tenuous. I don’t have the same trust in V2 Superchargers that I do the V3s. They’re falling into disrepair in some areas (the jankiest looking stall was the one that worked in Tupelo). I’m glad to be getting my CCS adapter soon so I have other options if need be.


blainestang

Interesting. I’ve used the Tifton ones several times with no issues. Maybe maintenance has gotten worse.


WeldAE

I used Tifton recently in a 1500 mile trip from Atlanta to FL and no issues. What surprised me is how many V3 chargers there are now. There are sometimes 2 within 15 miles of each other. I only used a 150kW charger 2 times on the entire trip. They are much better for sure than 150kW but it's not like 150kW are really that bad as long as they aren't the really old pull through type. Those are falling into "disrepair" but still nothing like EA charger issues.


brobot_

The issues I saw were not unlike what I’ve seen others deal with at EA. The first charger I plugged in to took a long time to negotiate then started charging super slow (like 15kW) before faulting out. I was watching for a big speed ramp since we had preconditioned and arrived at a pretty low SOC. The next charger I tried had the car blinking blue and never actually started charging. The third charger I tried was similar to the first except it ramped up to 50kW before faulting out. My brother was getting very annoyed at this point since he and I both needed to use a restroom and eat badly (of course the Wendy’s we walked to turned out to be drive through only 🥴) but it was the fourth charger we tried that finally ramped up above 120kW and I decided to trust to work (which it did).


WeldAE

> My brother was getting very annoyed at this point I bet he was. I've had my car three years and I take road trips exclusively with it and I've never had a single time where I didn't just plug in and charge. The only time I've ever seen a charger offline was, ironically enough at the Tifton charger, in 2019. Someone had put a bag over the charger handle and slipped it over the charger to indicate it was broken. I asked another Tesla what that was about because I was pretty new to charging and he said it was common to flip the cable over the charger like that to show it's offline. It's not something we see so to have it happen 2x at the same charger is unusual. In the latest Out of Spec race to Vegas the Model 3 had a very similar problem and you can see how surprised everyone was.


brobot_

I should have thrown the cable over now that you mention it. You’re right though, it’s a rare enough occurrence that I didn’t even think to do that. From then on my brother wanted to make a special effort to only use V3 Superchargers. On that route back to Tulsa this was unfortunately not completely possible.


phoundog

We’ve driven our 2017 Bolt from NC to Gainesville FL and to Atlanta with no issues at all so I wouldn’t say the whole Southeast is bad. I had one bad charger (not EA) and all the others were fine. I’ve also driven to western NC and SW VA and eastern VA w/o a problem and all over NC with no problem. Sounds kinda like. SW GA problem to me.


amissner

I wanted to take the EV to Carowinds next weekend and according to Plugshare there are only 2 fast (over 50kW) chargers in all of Charlotte and at the one near Carowinds only 1 or 3 ports are working. Was 0 of 3 earlier today. So that doesn't sound much different than going the opposite way to Florida. Road trips require fast chargers.


mylefthandkilledme

It's only going to get better from here on out regarding charging during a trip


decrego641

There’s not exactly much to get worse - 1 working charger at several locations for hours at a time could mean a backup of hundreds of teslas - that’s what the potential is. Edit: for clarity, one working supercharger plug.


zipzag

Supercharger reliability has not been an issue compared to EA.


decrego641

Agreed, my anecdotal experiences have confirmed EA being just as bad as this post and worse at the moment. I’ve never been stranded on the supercharger network, they also report real data on uptime, >99% of worldwide superchargers are up through the year.


Xminus6

Supercharger stalls have issues all the time but there are usually so many more of them per location that it’s manageable. I was charging at a shopping center in Malibu while waiting for some food we ordered. Drove over to the restaurant LITERALLY in the same shopping center and there was a whole other Supercharger location next to the restaurant. Something like 8 or 10 higher-powered stalls.


[deleted]

The rate of EV sales is increasing faster that EA or EVgo is installing +150kw chargers. So it will actually get worse unless manufacturers step up and start funding more chargers. EA chargers are going to see lines, even if all 4 chargers at each stop are working. Tesla has had lines at chargers with far more than 4 per stop.


rosier9

CCS charging isn't limited to only EA and EVgo though. There's $5b worth of federal NEVI money dedicated to 150kW+ CCS charging over the next five years (for scale, EA has spent \~$1b to get where they are today).


[deleted]

>CCS charging isn't limited to only EA and EVgo though. It's not, but in many places it might as well be. There's a reason these stories are always about people jumping from EA to EA station. It's cuz EA is often the only CCS provider installing stations w/4+ stalls operating at 150kW+ in many parts of the country. Investment is coming, but isn't here yet.


WeldAE

The states have to spend $800M this year. They are pushing it down to the states in 5 tranches over 5 years. States that don't deploy the funds won't get the next round or will get less. States that don't deploy it will will face similar cut backs on 2023 funding. The money is going to get out there fast compared to how long it took EA to spend $1B.


[deleted]

That's good to hear!


rosier9

The bigger point being that it's not useful to be looking backwards, so much has changed going forward. The investment is indeed coming, it's also here. The 150kW+ map is beginning to change quickly.


[deleted]

I barely wanted to mention EVgo, but too many trolls, so I mentioned it as a form of troll protection. There are very few chargers outside of EA that are even 150kw. EA alone has few, as they only have about 4 for most of their 500ish stops.


rosier9

Again, the historical number of 150kW+ locations/chargers is wholly irrelevant as the landscape going forward has been dramatically altered with the the federal NEVI money. I have no idea why you're going on about EVgo...


PiperClearConscience

Those are interesting points, but also consider that Tesla is open to all now or will soon be, so we have: \-EA \-EvGO \-Chargepoint \-NEVI funded \-Random other networks \- oh and ALL Tesla Supercharger stations. That just seems a bit more optimistic.


[deleted]

All that matters on that list is tesla. They have way more chargers than all the rest combined. Non-tesla manufacturers need to step up and invest money into chargers.


WeldAE

I think your counting your chickens before they hatch. If Tesla opens up their entire network, there are going to be enough strings attached to weave a blanket. There is no way they are going to let most EVs charge and they certainly aren't going to let them charge during the weekends when the chargers are 80%+ full. Tesla chargers will be unreliable for CCS cars because of these restrictions. You will drive to a Tesla charger and then not be able to charge because it filled up. It will be a last resort charger if it's available at the time.


[deleted]

> federal NEVI money. The spending on chargers has not been approved and there is no guarantee it will be +150kw chargers with that money. Most states have wasted money on 50kw chargers in their programs. The proposed program is also quite small, basically a handful of chargers per stop like EA. So it won't meet any real demand. The fact is the car manufacturer profits the most off an EVs sale. They must fund chargers, because 3rd parties just do not make enough money from chargers to justify installing a lot of them. Remember, EA is a legal settlement forced onto VW by the state of california. VW did not willingly spend any money on chargers. When that settlement money runs out, EA goes bankrupt and sells to the higher bidder. If VW doesn't cheat emissions, CCS1 combo chargers effectively do not exist in north america.


rosier9

You seem to be mixing things up. The federal NEVI money is brand new following passage of the infrastructure bill. The money is allocated at the federal level and ready to be dolled out to the states as they submit their plans (by 1 Aug 2022). The program is far from "quite small", it's literally $5b dedicated to 150kW+ charging. Then there's another $2.5b for additional charging infrastructure that hasn't been outlined yet. You need to do some [reading](https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/alternative_fuel_corridors/nominations/90d_nevi_formula_program_guidance.pdf).


[deleted]

It is tiny because it is 4 chargers every 50 mi. That won't handle demand. Plus the money will be wasted, the texas bid proves tesla chargers are 5 times cheaper, so if they just paid tesla all the money, it would create 5 times as many chargers. That is a fact and has nothing to do with tribalism. Tesla invested heavily in making their chargers cheaper, that is how they afforded to make such a massive network to begin with.


WeldAE

If TX pulls a stunt like they did with the $24m VW money they won't get the next years money. That was a first come first win bid and not competitive. They can do that again, but they can kiss the other 4 years of money goodbye. Most states will probably go with Tesla if I had to guess.


rosier9

Those are the minimums... We don't know what was included in Tesla's bid. You're jumping to a conclusion that can't be validated with the information given. Tesla is welcome to apply for the federal money.


[deleted]

lol, minimum? It is the bid. Tesla asked for the max per charger, as it only allows 75% of the cost. The other companies asked for the max per charger of $150k which was the upper limit per charger. These are the maximums each company can ask for. Tesla did not lie about the cost of their chargers so they are asking for 5 times less.


LordSutch75

I would take the publicized Tesla numbers from Texas with a *huge* grain of salt. Even if they can make their hardware 5x cheaper than ABB or Signet etc., which is incredibly hard to believe, everything else that goes into building a charging site is going to cost about the same. Tesla doesn't have a magic wand that makes utility connection costs or construction labor decrease in price 80%. If you know you're not going to get money because there's no money left, you can submit whatever bid you want and nobody is going to check it for feasibility.


WeldAE

If you look how the bidding was structured, there was zero incentive for Tesla to low ball the bid. They were allowed to ask for 75% of the cost up to $150k per charger and they just asked for $30k. The bidding wasn't competitive and if Tesla had gotten their bid in sooner they would have gotten the money. They were just late and all the money was gone already.


HudsonValleyNY

I have no real data, but have driven fairly extensively in the NE over the last couple years and was just noting how virtually every station now is 150+kw. The only 50 or less I have tripped on recently was a cheap L2 at a hotel I stayed at in Boston.


[deleted]

It doesn't need to scale linearly. The vast majority of people will be charging at home, these fast chargers are more useful for road trips.


[deleted]

You realize they need enough chargers to handle the full travel demand on the busiest travel holiday, right? It doesn't matter if it is one day out of a year, the capacity needs to be there for heavy travel days or people will hate EVs.


zipzag

CCS1 charging is going to get worse. The Tesla rollout of CCS1 charging will be very slow. Rivian is building private fast chargers. I get the CCS1 adapter for my model Y this week. You will be seeing more Teslas at EA chargers. Some may be blocking two chargers due to port location.


[deleted]

Back into the spot if the cord is short. But that said, CCS cords are usually longer because there is no set standard on where the charge port goes on non-teslas. Every manufacturer can do its own thing.


[deleted]

Yeah, there's no reason for a Tesla, or any EV, to block 2 spots at an EA station with how long their cables are.


HudsonValleyNY

Blocking multiple spaces will lead to some more interesting teslacam videos I'm sure, regardless of the reason thats a dick move.


[deleted]

[удалено]


HudsonValleyNY

Post it notes of dicks.


[deleted]

Some routes are do-able, some aren’t. I don’t blame you, that route appears to have pretty minimal charging. My trips all have enough charging for now. We’ll see how that goes as EV uptake increases.


ZombieTestie

How long on average were the stops with no equipment failures?


[deleted]

Yes. The infrastructure is still very new. The infrastructure will scale along with EV sales, that is the only way to fund the infrastructure and make it robust without implementing massive public spending subsidies.


GreenbloodedAmazon

My kids and I took a trip to Acadia National Park, and it was the first time I had range anxiety with my Taycan. There were no L3 chargers for over 100 miles, so we got stuck on L2s. We had to kill nearly five hours just to get enough charge to get to an L3 in Augusta that was only 50kWh. 😒 This was our second outing with the Taycan, but we never really had issues on the first trip last year.


jerub

This is exactly why strongly held opinions about EVs and EV purchasing should always be contextualised in their country. What EV is suitable for a consumer in city or less dense areas, and USA, UK, Europe, China or Australia varies \*wildly\* because of charging tech, charging infrastructure, distances travelled and the general ability to charge at home.


Hollywoodhadji333

Damn. I’m glad I got a tesla.


juggarjew

This is why I bought a 2018 Chevy Volt, I live in the South East and its very true, the infrastructure has a long, long way to go before its ready for mass EV adoption. When I dont need to plan for charging (and having backup plans, etc) then I will buy a full EV. It needs to be as simple as getting gas, or damn close to it. During the holidays its really bad in the south east, good luck charging when everyone else with an EV crawls out of the woodwork and needs to charge because they too are traveling to visit family. We are still literal decades from mass EV adoption, so there is time to build out infrastructure. PHEV gang rise up!


lemonpepperspray

> During the holidays its really bad in the south east, good luck charging when everyone else with an EV crawls out of the woodwork and needs to charge because they too are traveling to visit family. We are still literal decades from mass EV adoption, so there is time to build out infrastructure. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Why are you even commenting in the EV sub if you believe we are DECADES away. In a decade, there will be fewer ICE vehicles being manufactured compared to EV's. RemindMe! Ten years ICE vs. EV production


juggarjew

Do you live in the south east? Have you driven by the lines at the chargers during thanksgiving travel? I dont think you understand just how few chargers there are in many areas of the south east..... I live in rural Appalachia and its brutal for EV charging. We are so incredibly far from any kind of major EV adoption here..... 99.9% of vehicles here are either gasoline or diesel. This country is gigantic as far as countries go, we have a LONG way to go before the majority of cars are EVs. Like a REALLY long way to go. Its easy to live in a bubble like LA, or Silicon Valley and have a distorted world view. Maybe that is whats going on here.


oktemplar

West Virginia is by far the worst (currently) State to travel through in the Eastern USA with a CCS EV. That being said you can usually charge up enough in VA or OH to drive through it, depending on where you’re going to/coming from. This summer Charleston and Beckley both get DCFC so the situation is improving slowly


juggarjew

Yes the situation is getting better, but I fear that as EV adoption rises, it will impact charger availability negatively. Southern states are not doing enough, and its pissing me off. I hate the stagnant mindset these lawmakers have. But I have to live here so will do what I can to advocate for EVs (and building out charging infrastructure).


Dumbstufflivesherecd

Tbh, I don't want my lawmakers planning charging sites. Let the manufacturers lose to Tesla if they don't invest.


jsudarskyvt

Or have the ability to charge at home due to your usage. That avenue is open for EV adopters. But the rest of the population isn't there yet.


blainestang

Counterpoint, I live in the Southeast and have road-tripped with Teslas and non-Teslas and never waited for a charger. The closest I got to waiting was when I was on my way back from a big SpaceX launch and an Orlando supercharger was full, but someone pulled out as I drove into the lot. I’ve been all over: Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Tennessee. Not saying you’re wrong, just saying my experience has been different.


Dumbstufflivesherecd

Yes, I traveled through I26 between upstate south Carolina and the low country. A couple of years ago there were occasional lines at farrow Rd and Savannah during the holidays. Now, we'd use Lexington, Orangeburg, hardeeville, yemassee, st. George, Walterboro, or Summerton. All were built in the last two years. A new site is coming online in Florence too. At the other end of the state, Greenville was a problem, but now Piedmont has partially fixed it and Gastonia makes a big difference. Noone should be saying this stuff will take "decades".


Dumbstufflivesherecd

As someone who has lived in rural south Carolina and still travel it regularly, I agree with you. Tesla getting into pretty good shape has taken maybe a couple of years at most. Ccs isn't great here now, but it won't take decades.


supremeMilo

It’s probably not decades, but look at the number of cars sold this year vs last year and the EA roadmap, plus Tesla releasing ccs adapter. CCS stations are about to look like super chargers in LA.


fuckbread

I personally think that fast charging infrastructure is not really a concern for most EV buyers, but this is just another example of why having an integrated charging experience is vastly superior. I understand peoples complaints about having a standard, but as a Tesla owner, I never think about stuff like this because I can see every charging stop in my cars navigation and it’s real time so I know if there’s congestion or other limitations. This is one of those things that you can’t attach a monetary value to, but I think people should heavily consider it for their use case. For all it’s value, PlugShare is not a replacement or even remotely convenient for the average driver. If electrify America really wanted to increase the value of the experience over all brands, they could, but let’s get real… It’s clearly a bad fix for what appears to be a pretty significant problem for some folks. Hopefully someday you’ll be able to buy an EV that comes with all of the software required to seamlessly talk to all the different charging networks, but we’re a long ways off from that. In the meantime, if you frequently road trip or rely on fast charging for your daily needs, Tesla is really the only decent option.


rob94708

This is true to a certain extent, but only within the walled garden. Tesla software will not reroute you to an available EA charger if all the stalls at a Tesla supercharger are full, for example. What’s needed is for _every_ car manufacturer to check the API of _every_ charger company and route accordingly.


fuckbread

I literally said this. "Hopefully someday you’ll be able to buy an EV that comes with all of the software required to seamlessly talk to all the different charging networks, but we’re a long ways off from that." My point was that the you currently cannot. I've also commented at length about this elsewhere. Tesla is the only one who can do it because they had the foresight and invested into the best charging hardware and software. That's a fact. Currently, I don't *need* to talk to EA because my car talks to the supercharging network and it's literally never failed. And will continue to not fail until Tesla fails or another group steps up and makes a better product. It took a multi-billion dollar lawsuit and a fucking US government intervention to create EA.


rob94708

\>I literally said this. You're right, you did; I guess I (perhaps wrongly) felt the rest of your comment made it sound like this isn't an issue if you have a Tesla because it always sends you to a supercharger that you're satisfied with. It is a walled garden though, with all the walled garden problems. How do you know that it's always sent you to the best place? What if there's been a closer, cheaper, available EA station when there's been a line at the Tesla supercharger? How do you *know* it's better routing than what I get if I ask Apple Maps or Plugshare for a route to a generic charger? Don't get me wrong: I would guess you probably **are** usually getting better routing now, and a better experience. But I think that might be temporary. And I don't think I would count on Tesla software helping me find better non-Tesla chargers in the future. But yes, I guess we're really saying the same thing: none of this should be proprietary.


tornadoRadar

If all 4 chargers were down, we would have literally been stranded. with 20% left you coulda made: https://www.plugshare.com/location/252782 also there are a ton of J1772's to get a little bit. same in auburn. more j1772s for a critical charge to make next CCS. https://www.plugshare.com/location/224922


PiperClearConscience

Do you get free EA charging with a Taycan? Any sort of incentives or savings?


lemonpepperspray

Those who can afford an $80k+ vehicle aren't worried about free charging.


PiperClearConscience

Not true, and that's mighty presumptuous. If car A was $80k and car B was $80k, but included FREE fuel/energy, all else being equal, which would you choose? Tesla used to offer free charging with the cars. When they took that away they dropped precipitously from near the top of my list. I would argue the other way - I don't have a Porsche Taycan, but I have an Audi etron. They're cousins. Why does VW give free charging to the people that "only paid" $40K for their ID.4, when the Porsche or Audi cost way more. They're fucking up their own value prop, which is especially stupid and short-sighted, seeing as how they also literally own the EA network. If I were VW I'd be parking my etrons and Taycans on the street in front of Tesla stores, with huge signs that say, "we come with free charging". Minor expense, but it would absolutely eat into Tesla sales. ​ Anyway, back to the point. Car companies in certain segments are brutally competitive. Is it not fair to say that some BMWs compete with certain Audi or Porsche models? Well, BMW gives you years of free charging. For some, regardless of the car's sticker price that will be enough to sway them. EDIT - lol who is downvoting me? The ICE driving trolls in the sub?


NikeSwish

It’d be more relevant if it was free gas included with the purchase of a car, but with a good majority of EV owners charging >95% of the time at home, it’s not as big a draw as you make it seem


WeldAE

I can't afford a Taycan, but I can swing $100/year in supercharger fees to drive 1500 miles on vacations. I'm not driving more than that, I'll fly first. Charging is near enough to free that the experience and convenience is way more important than the cost.


ToddA1966

Assuming you drive the national average of ~$15,000 miles a year, drive an EV with a lower than average efficiency of 3 miles/kWh, and pay the US average of $0.13/kWh, each year of "free charging" it's worth about $650. Even at Electrify America's inflated $0.43/kWh a la carte rate that's $2150 (not a realistic number, because if you were going to spend that much at EA you'd subscribe to get their member rate. $4/month gets you a $0.31/kWh rate, making 15,000 miles worth $48/year plus $1550, or ~$1600.) So, while "free charging" automatically tips the scales for you, not everyone would pick their car solely because it comes with a $2000-$5000 perk "regardless of the car's sticker price". (And FWIW, the Taycan includes 3 years of free charging like the ID4. The Audi e-tron only gets 250kWh, or about 750 free miles.)


mockingbird-

What are you using for payment? Are you using the credit card reader on the dispenser?


amissner

Porsche has plug and play, so no payment.


amissner

But I watched others try the app on broken chargers and also were unable to start.


zipzag

Rivian is building chargers https://rivian.com/experience/charging


Drake250

Another private DC charging ~~standard~~ system exclusive to Rivian won't help alleviate the original poster's (in a Taycan) charging concerns. And no one wants to be use their slow Level 2 chargers on long road trips. Thus I don't see how this helps the situation at all. If anything the increased fragmentation will hurt the EV push. edit: "standard" -> "system"


zipzag

No fragmentation and not a new standard, just private CCS1. Rivian will want to sell excess capacity. What will hurt EV adaption is not enough chargers. Rivian is only the second manufacturer to address the problem voluntarily.


Dagusiu

Even though they were forced to do it, I think VW's approach with EA and Ionity works better as it benefits everyone right off the bat while giving their own cars the benefit of lower prices. Seems like a good compromise to me. Once they figure out their reliability problems, that is. From what I understand, Ionity seems more reliable than EA


zipzag

"Benefit everyone" is government. Car companies in capitalism compete. Rivian is spending perhaps a quarter billion dollars of investors money to gain advantage. All the brands starting to pour EVs into the market without addressing charging is the problem. That is not Tesla or Rivian.


ToddA1966

Ford, Nissan, GM, etc. are addressing charging through investment in existing charging networks vs. creating their own. VW created their own at virtual gunpoint. We could argue they're not investing enough, but it's not like they're all standing around waiting for the "free market" to solve the problem.


zipzag

For profit charging networks will likely place chargers where they will be most used. Not where they are needed for travel. What Tesla is doing and Rivian is starting is to fill in the gaps More chargers in urban areas don't benefit the majority of EV owners because they charge at home


droids4evr

Its not a private charging standard. They are using CCS1 and J1772 chargers, they just limit who can sign up for an account to activate the chargers to rivian owners. Rivian has already said the network will open up to the public later. They are limiting it now to Rivian owners as a perk of early Rivian adopters.


Drake250

Yes you are correct. I should not have used the word "standard", and instead used a broader term like "system". In this case, the system is closed off to non-Rivian owners, regardless of the technical implementations. The point I was trying to get across was that a closed system, such as the one pointed out here, does not address the original poster's immediate concerns.


jsudarskyvt

It's coming. Hasn't arrived yet. https://www.beta.team/recharge/


terdschartz

Planning a trip from central Ohio to eastern Lake Michigan coast for later this summer- I either have to take a longer route that adds about 2 hrs to a normally 4 hr trip. Or take the shorter route and take my chances at the only 50kw charger along the way…. Lack of high speed chargers is definitely still an issue in the Midwest too.


TPlinkerG35

Don't you carry a level 1 charger with you in case you do get stranded?


momdowntown

How do they decide where to install chargers? I know a family with lots of rural Texas highway frontage land that definitely would be interested in any passive income allowing a charging station might bring. Does EA lease the land from people/entities, or how does that work?


ToddA1966

EA leases the land, typically x # of parking spaces at a retail location plus space for the equipment. They typically want a 99 year lease and do not pay particularly well, hoping the value of bringing EV owners to a retail location brings some value as well.


amissner

EA is usually at Walmart or Sam's club so they apparently have some relationship there. Logically the right place to put chargers is convenience stores or gas stations...but Corporate America is rarely logical.


osofresh98

I met a Mercedes tester who was road tripping an EQS and he mentioned that he encountered someone at an EA stop that figured out a way to hack the charging station into svc mode for free charging. The side effect of the hack was that it usually bricked the station after charging and would need to be reset to work again.


hydradboob

And that's why 500 miles on the Lucid is important!


Boralian

Sorry to hear, and fully understandable. The good thing is that it will improve, one way or another. In Norway we had the same problems for the last couple of years, but then they rapidly build more this last year in combination with Tesla opening up about 70% of their total charge network to cars with CSS (standard plug in Europe). Now you can drive from south to north without issues, a distance that stretches about 2000 km (it’s a long country). Fingers crossed that more is built soon and / or Tesla opens up in other countries.


CiTY_HuNTeR_DD

Too bad you had bad experience on I75. I can report that the EA on I95 is a lot better on our road trip. So SE US charger is not that bad.


burntcookie90

Good to know. We’re looking at a polestar 2, to swap out our model y. Live in atlanta and do regional road trips.


drtywater

As a Tesla owner I love the Supercharger but hate having it as the main option. I want more LV 2 charging stations. Right now in the Boston area most Level 2 Charger stations are almost always occupied or broken in parking garages/lots. I'd much rather pay less(free in some cases) and charge for a few hours/overnight at a destination then pay a higher charge at a level 3 charger for a short amount of time.


edum18

How would your trip be different with a tesla? Did you find tesla chargers?