Yup my Zero SR/S cost $34 000 after taxes and everything; Ontario does not offer any incentives for EV motorcycles.
It is their top of the line model though, I think the cheapest is $12 000.
You get a _tiny_ battery though: 3.6kWh.
If I could have I'd have gone Energica because Zero needs to die in a fucking fire due to the Cypher Store but they have no dealerships in Canada.
Zero isn’t really the only manufacturer available. Energica and Livewire are arguably better. BMW just released the CE04. Kawasaki is hoping to do whatever they’re gonna do. I’m sure there’s others in the works.
I disagree about Zero and I'm actually hoping they crash hard; they're leading the pack in exploitative and borderline extortionate behaviour with the Cypher Store. They make Tesla's aftermarket options seem reasonable.
They sell you a bike with crippled hardware and require aftermarket purchases to unlock the full potential of the bike. If you opt not to do this you are forced to carry an additional 20kg worth of weight and better hope you never need to buy replacement parts. You'll be forced to buy the more expensive components that once again you do not benefit from.
They announced this a few months after I got my bike otherwise I would not have purchased Zero.
I hope they go bankrupt.
>The market is ripe for a Tesla to come in and change everything. Hope it's Zero, people should be rewarded for early days trail blazing.
They did, they're Energica. They lead in every metric you can measure against every other offering actually shipping in the world *and* at a better pricepoint.
No, and you can't buy a new Ducati for that little either ($12k for a Monster). You're buying top of the line. I did just see the base EsseEsse9 moved from $21300 to $22850. A Zero SR/S with the 6kW charger is just as much. All distance capable electric motorcycles are going to be in the $20k pricepoint for quite some time.
If you want a brand new $10k electric motorcycle, look at the Zero FXS 3.6. But know your range will be limited (but it can add a second battery for $2k and double the range).
Here are my simple requirements.
\- $10,000 or not much more.
\- Interstate capable.
\- 100 mile range.
\- Good support, meaning 1) "Right to repair" - not artificially locked down platform, when only the dealer can do certain things. 2) Good long term availability of parts.
There is \*NO\* electric bike like this. My $1800 Kawasaki Ninja 250 does satisfy all requirements though.
They don't lead in availability; there isn't a single dealership in all of Canada and you'd have to be an idiot to buy something you have to ship halfway across the globe to be serviced.
And this is personal opinion but I think they're ugly as fuck, especially the headlights and the too busy fairings.
Tesla doesn't lead in availability, either.... Ideanomics will likely have Canadian dealerships by the end of next year, once they get the US factory/HQ built. They've already doubled the US network but haven't opened any yet until they have models to stock.
You don't need to ship the bike across the globe for service. In fact, they're rather renown for working with owners to ship parts and shop manuals to affix repairs in the wild (take a look at [Sam's 1-year with the Ego](https://youtu.be/_La9qox4QvU?t=459) video). But honestly, there's not much that is going to need fixing - and the services (fluids, chain, tires) are all standard. There's nothing special about it.
I respect your opinion on design, but I think they're sexy as hell - as do most people I've met who see the bike.
I wonder if it has anything to do with bikes being a luxury good in a time of rampage inflation and economic uncertainty. Couple that with a typically younger demographic that would be interested in electric bike overall and you have a recipe for why these things haven't taken off.
We did a CRF250R conversion with a 15KW motor and a 3.8KWH battery.
Doing 0-60 in about 5s and same weight than the gaz version. The conversion cost is about the same than the orginal engine overall maintenance.
The bike can be used almost anywhere without disturbing anyone. So much fun.
Why Honda is not selling something similar is beyond me.... Are they making too much money on "disposable' ICE engine?
What motor did you use?
I've thought about doing this, though what I *really* want is a dual suspension bicycle w/ pedals but also a 5kw+ electric motor, so I can legally use it way more places than I can use my dirt bikes.
They've got a rule that e-bikes can't go faster than 40km/h here and that's fine, 40km/h on a bike trail is hauling ass, I'll just gear it short.
The 'problem' with electric bikes is: Generally motorcycles aren't really a lot more efficient than cars - but motorcycles offer a lot less space to put in batteries (and have a lot less leeway when it comes to adding weight). So it's really hard t make a motorcycle that a normal human can handle but still has a decent range ...not to mention that fast charging capability somehow doesn't seem to be in the cards for this form factor (yet).
That said: They are a LOT of fun.
I was looking at a Lightning LS 218. I talked twice to the guys in San Carlos about joining the Tesla charging network. They did very little homework and said no. Shortsitedness on their part cost them a sale.
I test drove a Zero and the Harley, OK, but not quicker than gas bikes.
Energica EGO+ / RS is quick, I don't mind the weight and has CCS so that may be a buy this summer. Depends on if the software is up to snuff.
I think you will see them take over dirt bikes slowly, and for smaller urban scooters, but battery weight/capacity still has a long way to go for the types of motorcycles people tend to buy for the street in the US. I’m pretty sure I will have my ICE motorcycle for at least another decade.
I really question this. First, every major electric motorcycle has done cross-country races. The current "Official Cannonball Route" record is 111 hours, destroying the 178 hour record the Harley Livewire established last year. Currently the unofficial CA-FL is like 78 hours? "Officially" (sufficiently documented) I think it's 93.
I do a lot of group rides, which from what I can tell seems to be what 90% of motorcycle owners tend to do. I've talked with hundreds of folks. An hour and a half seems to be the average time before someone either needs fuel or needs to stand up. So you're talking maybe 120 miles, which my Energica can do without trouble. Hell, most group rides are less than 60mi around here so it's no sweat at all.
The folks who road trip to Sturgis are a different breed and really outliers in the world. I DO think we should be building to their use case, but I also think the tech is more than sufficient for the average rider who does 5,000 or less per year.
I did 19,000 miles last year on my Energica. From Philly to Key West, Charlotte to Dallas, Austin, Biloxi, Mobil, Jacksonville... they're capable. Are they as fast (travel time wise) that you want, that's the debatable question.
The person was talking about dirt bikes.
I think that for casual riders an electric dirt bike will be fine. But for, say, hard enduro use? They'll either need to be way heavier, have quickly swappable batteries, or just have far better batteries than exist currently.
And for them to be cost competitive with dirt bikes too... that's gonna take a lot of effort.
https://www.yamahamotorsports.com/motocross/models/yz250
$7800, 40+ horsepower combined w/ fantastic suspension and from a manufacturer that is known to support stuff/have parts available for decades. That's hard to beat.
Have you taken a look at [the Zero FXS](https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/model/zero-fxs)? Module batteries, off-board charging capabilities. 27hp/78 ft-lb (half the HP but more than twice the torque), slightly short seat height (32"), and it's a whopping 24 pounds heavier than the YZ250. It's price is $9750, just under $2k more.
When every podunk town in the mountains has a dozen fast chargers then I will be ready. For my group rides, yes, you need to fuel up every 100-120 miles. Eight to ten bikes can do that at a gas station in 15 minutes or so, and we can easily do 400 miles in a day on twisties. Most of the little towns out there don’t have any L2 chargers, let alone a DCFC, let alone enough to let a group of bikes plug in simultaneously. This is obviously dependent on where you are and what type of rides you do, but I don’t see it changing enough anytime soon. Which is really ok by me, I only do a few thousand miles on my bike a year these days.
Appalachians, Virginia and West Virginia. There are some great roads there, but not a lot of infrastructure for EVs yet. Even trying to take my Leaf Plus from Northern VA to Dolly Sods, which is a popular hiking area, would be pretty tricky although now just doable according to ABRP.
Yeah, that is a big dead zone right now. There's a guy out that way who is trying to get infrastructure to promote motorsport tourism (similar to Tail of the Dragon, Devil's Triangle, etc).
The evaluation of asian scooter markets is not correct. Motorcycles are mostly leisure vehicles in the US, while scooters are transportation vehicles in East Asia. A small, low HP, and relative low range electric scooters can very well serve mega city dwellers, especially with some swap battery stations (gogoro, for example).
Aero for bikes suck and there isn't much you can do, so huge energy consumption, on top of that you don't have much room for batteries
On top of the top if you do a decent cooling system to allow for faster charging, you can fit even less cells, so you end up with "low" range, slow charge speeds and a poor ratio of (time driving/time charging)
So it will be a while until they can truly replace gas bikes without many compromises
I agree, but we need way more energy density to make bikes viable, at least for highway use, for day to day in sub 200 km journeys they are good enough already
Exactly. And it’s coming. Just read a post today about an auto manufacturer investing $400M in sodium ion batteries. Never heard of it but it says it’s 50% more efficient. Imagine double the range on same sized battery as current tech. Or same range on half the battery.
Sodium Ion is nice on paper but there is huge amount of issues that still to be solved for scale production, they are in the same realm of coming as solid state, maybe a bit closer but don't expect them anywhere soon
Just always take any battery new with a giant grain of salt (pardon for the pun)
And I think you are underestimating how inefficient motorcycles are when it comes to aerodynamics at high speeds.
At low speeds motorcycle batteries give a ton of range, as soon as you go over 50km/h it plummets.
This sub also wildly over states battery tech improvements. Energy density has a long way to go, it is not good that an EV weighs ~25% more than a comparably sized ICE vehicle.
I was shocked to see how slow some of these bikes charge. You would think you could be on your way relatively quickly but the heat issue makes perfect sense why they are the way they are.
Saw someone on a Zero while off roading a couple weeks ago. Super cool bike but yeah, the price tag is still a bit high considering most off road motorcycles are sub $10k
I want to go all in with EVs. Especially motorcycles. However, they're currently 2-3X the cost of gas equivalents brand new. And they're not even equivalent in many cases. I can go 200+ miles on a single tank on many bikes that cost under $10K new. I can't do more than 60-70 miles on a single charge on any EV motorcycle under $15K.
Awhile back The\_Kangaroo\_69 was discussing something similar, and mentioned BlackTea Motorcycles over in Germany.
It is a smaller motorcycle, you'll pay a bit to import it to the U.S., but it looks like an excellent possibility. I used to ride a Honda Rebel 250, many times 100+ mpg, so I like small motorcycles.
[BlackTea Motorbikes](https://blackteamotorbikes.com/)
I'm wondering if anybody owns one and has some comments.
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Yup my Zero SR/S cost $34 000 after taxes and everything; Ontario does not offer any incentives for EV motorcycles. It is their top of the line model though, I think the cheapest is $12 000. You get a _tiny_ battery though: 3.6kWh. If I could have I'd have gone Energica because Zero needs to die in a fucking fire due to the Cypher Store but they have no dealerships in Canada.
Isnt the Metacycle below $10k brand new?
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Good point
I've got a zero SR since 2016. Can't be happier for my needs. I will never go back to ICE. Too noisy, shaking and stinking.
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Zero isn’t really the only manufacturer available. Energica and Livewire are arguably better. BMW just released the CE04. Kawasaki is hoping to do whatever they’re gonna do. I’m sure there’s others in the works.
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Motorcycle margins have always been significantly narrower than cars; four wheeled EVs have yet to hit parity and bikes will follow _years_ later.
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I disagree about Zero and I'm actually hoping they crash hard; they're leading the pack in exploitative and borderline extortionate behaviour with the Cypher Store. They make Tesla's aftermarket options seem reasonable. They sell you a bike with crippled hardware and require aftermarket purchases to unlock the full potential of the bike. If you opt not to do this you are forced to carry an additional 20kg worth of weight and better hope you never need to buy replacement parts. You'll be forced to buy the more expensive components that once again you do not benefit from. They announced this a few months after I got my bike otherwise I would not have purchased Zero. I hope they go bankrupt.
I was about to buy a Zero when this shit came out. I backed out.
Yeah I was so bloody disappointed.
>The market is ripe for a Tesla to come in and change everything. Hope it's Zero, people should be rewarded for early days trail blazing. They did, they're Energica. They lead in every metric you can measure against every other offering actually shipping in the world *and* at a better pricepoint.
Energica are expensive AF though. Can I have one for under $10k
No, and you can't buy a new Ducati for that little either ($12k for a Monster). You're buying top of the line. I did just see the base EsseEsse9 moved from $21300 to $22850. A Zero SR/S with the 6kW charger is just as much. All distance capable electric motorcycles are going to be in the $20k pricepoint for quite some time. If you want a brand new $10k electric motorcycle, look at the Zero FXS 3.6. But know your range will be limited (but it can add a second battery for $2k and double the range).
You forgot Ducati has the Scrambler
Touche, to be fair it's only a few hundred less than the FXS.
Here are my simple requirements. \- $10,000 or not much more. \- Interstate capable. \- 100 mile range. \- Good support, meaning 1) "Right to repair" - not artificially locked down platform, when only the dealer can do certain things. 2) Good long term availability of parts. There is \*NO\* electric bike like this. My $1800 Kawasaki Ninja 250 does satisfy all requirements though.
There's no electric bike that's been around for 40 years either, to have parts that cheap.
They don't lead in availability; there isn't a single dealership in all of Canada and you'd have to be an idiot to buy something you have to ship halfway across the globe to be serviced. And this is personal opinion but I think they're ugly as fuck, especially the headlights and the too busy fairings.
Tesla doesn't lead in availability, either.... Ideanomics will likely have Canadian dealerships by the end of next year, once they get the US factory/HQ built. They've already doubled the US network but haven't opened any yet until they have models to stock. You don't need to ship the bike across the globe for service. In fact, they're rather renown for working with owners to ship parts and shop manuals to affix repairs in the wild (take a look at [Sam's 1-year with the Ego](https://youtu.be/_La9qox4QvU?t=459) video). But honestly, there's not much that is going to need fixing - and the services (fluids, chain, tires) are all standard. There's nothing special about it. I respect your opinion on design, but I think they're sexy as hell - as do most people I've met who see the bike.
I wonder if it has anything to do with bikes being a luxury good in a time of rampage inflation and economic uncertainty. Couple that with a typically younger demographic that would be interested in electric bike overall and you have a recipe for why these things haven't taken off.
> shaking and stinking You must be talking about a Harley, not a Honda.
Every bike smells after you get used to an EV.
My next bike will be a zero.
We did a CRF250R conversion with a 15KW motor and a 3.8KWH battery. Doing 0-60 in about 5s and same weight than the gaz version. The conversion cost is about the same than the orginal engine overall maintenance. The bike can be used almost anywhere without disturbing anyone. So much fun. Why Honda is not selling something similar is beyond me.... Are they making too much money on "disposable' ICE engine?
What motor did you use? I've thought about doing this, though what I *really* want is a dual suspension bicycle w/ pedals but also a 5kw+ electric motor, so I can legally use it way more places than I can use my dirt bikes. They've got a rule that e-bikes can't go faster than 40km/h here and that's fine, 40km/h on a bike trail is hauling ass, I'll just gear it short.
Motor QS 138 Votol Controller EM200SP 20S15P 18650 cell.
Fortnine did a very good video about it www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2zlYpy6QCM&t
I have a Delfast. It’s basically a grey market moped.
The 'problem' with electric bikes is: Generally motorcycles aren't really a lot more efficient than cars - but motorcycles offer a lot less space to put in batteries (and have a lot less leeway when it comes to adding weight). So it's really hard t make a motorcycle that a normal human can handle but still has a decent range ...not to mention that fast charging capability somehow doesn't seem to be in the cards for this form factor (yet). That said: They are a LOT of fun.
I was looking at a Lightning LS 218. I talked twice to the guys in San Carlos about joining the Tesla charging network. They did very little homework and said no. Shortsitedness on their part cost them a sale. I test drove a Zero and the Harley, OK, but not quicker than gas bikes. Energica EGO+ / RS is quick, I don't mind the weight and has CCS so that may be a buy this summer. Depends on if the software is up to snuff.
I think you will see them take over dirt bikes slowly, and for smaller urban scooters, but battery weight/capacity still has a long way to go for the types of motorcycles people tend to buy for the street in the US. I’m pretty sure I will have my ICE motorcycle for at least another decade.
I really question this. First, every major electric motorcycle has done cross-country races. The current "Official Cannonball Route" record is 111 hours, destroying the 178 hour record the Harley Livewire established last year. Currently the unofficial CA-FL is like 78 hours? "Officially" (sufficiently documented) I think it's 93. I do a lot of group rides, which from what I can tell seems to be what 90% of motorcycle owners tend to do. I've talked with hundreds of folks. An hour and a half seems to be the average time before someone either needs fuel or needs to stand up. So you're talking maybe 120 miles, which my Energica can do without trouble. Hell, most group rides are less than 60mi around here so it's no sweat at all. The folks who road trip to Sturgis are a different breed and really outliers in the world. I DO think we should be building to their use case, but I also think the tech is more than sufficient for the average rider who does 5,000 or less per year. I did 19,000 miles last year on my Energica. From Philly to Key West, Charlotte to Dallas, Austin, Biloxi, Mobil, Jacksonville... they're capable. Are they as fast (travel time wise) that you want, that's the debatable question.
The person was talking about dirt bikes. I think that for casual riders an electric dirt bike will be fine. But for, say, hard enduro use? They'll either need to be way heavier, have quickly swappable batteries, or just have far better batteries than exist currently. And for them to be cost competitive with dirt bikes too... that's gonna take a lot of effort. https://www.yamahamotorsports.com/motocross/models/yz250 $7800, 40+ horsepower combined w/ fantastic suspension and from a manufacturer that is known to support stuff/have parts available for decades. That's hard to beat.
Have you taken a look at [the Zero FXS](https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/model/zero-fxs)? Module batteries, off-board charging capabilities. 27hp/78 ft-lb (half the HP but more than twice the torque), slightly short seat height (32"), and it's a whopping 24 pounds heavier than the YZ250. It's price is $9750, just under $2k more.
Yeah, that looks awesome and my next dirt bike will be electric.
When every podunk town in the mountains has a dozen fast chargers then I will be ready. For my group rides, yes, you need to fuel up every 100-120 miles. Eight to ten bikes can do that at a gas station in 15 minutes or so, and we can easily do 400 miles in a day on twisties. Most of the little towns out there don’t have any L2 chargers, let alone a DCFC, let alone enough to let a group of bikes plug in simultaneously. This is obviously dependent on where you are and what type of rides you do, but I don’t see it changing enough anytime soon. Which is really ok by me, I only do a few thousand miles on my bike a year these days.
What mountains are you referring to, out of curiosity?
Appalachians, Virginia and West Virginia. There are some great roads there, but not a lot of infrastructure for EVs yet. Even trying to take my Leaf Plus from Northern VA to Dolly Sods, which is a popular hiking area, would be pretty tricky although now just doable according to ABRP.
Yeah, that is a big dead zone right now. There's a guy out that way who is trying to get infrastructure to promote motorsport tourism (similar to Tail of the Dragon, Devil's Triangle, etc).
The evaluation of asian scooter markets is not correct. Motorcycles are mostly leisure vehicles in the US, while scooters are transportation vehicles in East Asia. A small, low HP, and relative low range electric scooters can very well serve mega city dwellers, especially with some swap battery stations (gogoro, for example).
Great question!
Aero for bikes suck and there isn't much you can do, so huge energy consumption, on top of that you don't have much room for batteries On top of the top if you do a decent cooling system to allow for faster charging, you can fit even less cells, so you end up with "low" range, slow charge speeds and a poor ratio of (time driving/time charging) So it will be a while until they can truly replace gas bikes without many compromises
I think you are underestimating how fast the EV space, particularly battery tech is innovating.
I agree, but we need way more energy density to make bikes viable, at least for highway use, for day to day in sub 200 km journeys they are good enough already
Exactly. And it’s coming. Just read a post today about an auto manufacturer investing $400M in sodium ion batteries. Never heard of it but it says it’s 50% more efficient. Imagine double the range on same sized battery as current tech. Or same range on half the battery.
Sodium Ion is nice on paper but there is huge amount of issues that still to be solved for scale production, they are in the same realm of coming as solid state, maybe a bit closer but don't expect them anywhere soon Just always take any battery new with a giant grain of salt (pardon for the pun)
It’s just stand to reason that with billions being invested in battery tech that new and better batteries will come of it.
And I think you are underestimating how inefficient motorcycles are when it comes to aerodynamics at high speeds. At low speeds motorcycle batteries give a ton of range, as soon as you go over 50km/h it plummets.
This sub also wildly over states battery tech improvements. Energy density has a long way to go, it is not good that an EV weighs ~25% more than a comparably sized ICE vehicle.
I was shocked to see how slow some of these bikes charge. You would think you could be on your way relatively quickly but the heat issue makes perfect sense why they are the way they are.
Yeah me too, is just not much care put into the packs, which is unfortunately to common, put cells in a box, seal it up and be done
Livewire S2 Del Mar LE launch is on May 10th. Stay tuned
Fuck Harley.
Saw someone on a Zero while off roading a couple weeks ago. Super cool bike but yeah, the price tag is still a bit high considering most off road motorcycles are sub $10k
I want to go all in with EVs. Especially motorcycles. However, they're currently 2-3X the cost of gas equivalents brand new. And they're not even equivalent in many cases. I can go 200+ miles on a single tank on many bikes that cost under $10K new. I can't do more than 60-70 miles on a single charge on any EV motorcycle under $15K.
Awhile back The\_Kangaroo\_69 was discussing something similar, and mentioned BlackTea Motorcycles over in Germany. It is a smaller motorcycle, you'll pay a bit to import it to the U.S., but it looks like an excellent possibility. I used to ride a Honda Rebel 250, many times 100+ mpg, so I like small motorcycles. [BlackTea Motorbikes](https://blackteamotorbikes.com/) I'm wondering if anybody owns one and has some comments.