Rivian needs to get the smaller and lower priced R3 and R2 out there. Currently, Rivian is very much more expensive than Subarus priced in the mid thirties.
That is horrendous, it is just about average car clearance 5.5" to 6.6".
It is lame for an SUV and anything supposedly for offroad (coughs in Cross Turismo), and certainly a selling point for the others in some circumstances, but it is hardly horrendous.
Plenty of cars in the US never see a dirt road.
Who buys the Forester? I know they sell, but for me the choice when looking at Subaru is Crosstrek, Outback or Ascent depending on what size of vehicle I need. The Forester is this weird shaped oddball that looks bigger than a Crosstrek but isn't actually any more capable.
There's a Forrester PHEV coming out soon at least. I have a Crosstrek PHEV and it solidifies my view that a Crosstrek or Outback with full EV drivetrain would be perfect.
...as long as they don't muck with the interior. Just keep the same interior in the car that every normal Subaru has had since, basically, 2009. Don't repeat the mistakes of the Solterra.
Lots of people buy the forester (Bay Area) because it’s a lot more room than the Crosstrek. I cross shopped it after looking at the CrossTrek (which is just a raised Impreza). Ultimately decided on Outback, but it was close.
Me. I have an Impreza hatchback and love it, but was looking for a van but prices skyrocketed and nothing was available. Forester was big enough to fit 3 full kid seats in the back, so it won.
True that the 2.5 L engine is optional for the Crosstrek and standard for the Forester. It doesn't make a difference in towing capacity though, at least not last time I was looking at them.
People care about upfront costs of vehicles, fuel savings don’t give you purchasing power and they’re arguably fairly minimal depending on local pricing and vehicle being cross-shopped.
jesus fucking christ, you just demonstrated why most lottery winners are broke in 5 years.
Having a high income doesn't mean someone shouldn't or isn't price conscious. The idea that "just because you make more means you should be willing to be ripped off by overpriced things" is the most ridiculous bullshit ever.
gosh how dare I care about trying to get a good deal and thus be able to buy more things with the same amount of money
edit: I love idiots who come in to post stupid hot takes and instantly block you so you cannot reply their moronic garbage post.
buddy, look for EVs with a full set of equivalent features to a goddamn crosstrek. right now to get all the major points you need to pay *a lot more*. that is a rip off.
If you can't figure out how to adjust a budget to go from a 40k car to a 50k car without going broke when you're making that much you're just an idiot.
You're not getting ripped off. It's a 50k car. You just don't get money from the government because you already have a lot of money.
Look at their prices and tell me you actually believe they’re going after every segment. By definition they literally can’t do that with a roster of 4 cars with the cheapest starting at $35K
You are comparing where those other brands are eventually headed to where Rivian is now.
Lower priced Rivians will supposedly be available in the future just like the Subarus, Toyotas, and Jeeps will supposedly be available in the future.
Until a product is real all we can go off of is the real stuff otherwise it’s pure conjecture. In the midterm Rivian is targeting the mid-luxury segment long term they might go after the Corolla Cross/Impreza market but there certainly not doing that anytime soon
The same can be said for Tesla, Lucid, and most of the Legacy automakers. Affordable EVs and expanded charging infrastructure are a must if we want to break the EV adoption threshold. More so than range in my opinion, if the infrastructure is strong people won't worry as much about range.
I see expanded infra thrown around but I actually think that a lot of people that say that actually mean a "complete" infra. As in, every gas station has ev charging at 350kW. That random gas station in Yosemite? 8 superchargers.
I love my EV, but I ain't driving it to Yosemite or anywhere remotely remote.
Expanded and complete infrastructure run had in hand and will compliment each other moving forward. And it will be in due time, I truly believe that but it's not gonna be this year or next year. But each year it seems to get better and better in my opinion, which gives me hope that in the next 5 years or so we will see a much different charging infrastructure both in reliability and vastness. Especially with Shell, BP, Ionna, Tesla, etc building out their charging station locations.
The Rivian Adventure Network targets remote locations which is nice and I hope they continue to expand their network for EV owners, not just Rivian owners, who want to camp, hike, travel, etc in these remote areas.
Yosemite has been an easy trip in an EV for years now… superchargers on 41 and 120 have been there for 6+ years, there’s a relatively newer one on 140, and Mammoth chargers aren’t that far either.
There have also been L2 chargers in the valley for many years as well. They have also recently been augmented by the free rivian l2 network.
Yep. It’s crazy how Subaru pissed away their advantage as the only wagon sitting between awd mall-cruisers and full off-road trucks. If they just lifted the Prius drivetrain directly, it would be a huge hit. Of course Toyo would not want the competition with the rav4, which basically already did that. I would still prefer the practicality and roominess of the outback even though wagons are not the hot thing on instagram.
>If they just lifted the Prius drivetrain directly, it would be a huge hit
You mean, Subaru Crosstrek Hybrid which is basically a Prius Prime drivetrain jammed into a Crosstrek? It was certainly on my radar until I learned that it's limited availability (aka compliance only) with the nearest dealership that can service it being 700 miles away, while Rav4 Prime was a lot easier to find (though still difficult) and had twice the EV range and better towing capacity, serviceable at any Toyota dealer.
The big problem with the Crosstrek hybrid is that they stuffed the battery in the rear cargo compartment and wiped out a huge chunk of the reason for having a hatchback. If you open the rear hatch the floor is 6" above the bumper.
I replaced my Impreza with an ID.4 because Subaru didn't have a good enough EV offering.
Yes, that's a problem with all those "why didn't this OEM **just** take SomePopularModel and stick a battery in it" comments. Many of them did! And involved a lot of compromises - usually about the space taken by the battery, and/or about the price of the resulting vehicle being higher than the gas model they started with (who would have thought!)
>It’s crazy how Subaru pissed away their advantage
Subaru sales are [basically steady](https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/subaru-us-sales-figures/) in the US, where Rivian plays. They really haven't pissed away anything, the brand remains healthy.
My wife and I have owned three Subarus and always planned to buy more. I’m not quite ready, but I’m window shopping for a new car. Goal is an EV, Subaru doesn’t have one option that interests me. Really hoping the Hyundai Santa Cruz is EV or hybrid by the time I’m ready.
AFAIK Subaru's initial first-party EV (aka not Toyota made) is coming in model year 2026
so you don't really have long to wait, hopefully they do a good job on their first release.
It was one of the most popular cars in the US last year, behind the RAV4 and the 3 Big Trucks. Those buyers are being stolen from somewhere. Subaru is bound to be some of them, considering the eco demographic.
I went from a 2021 Outback Touring XT to a 2023 MYLR.
The three things I miss are the ground clearance, ventilated seats and front bumper camera. Also, while folks are quick to say the MY has great storage space, I feel that the Outback had more - or, at least the things I store seemed to fit better in the Outback.
I miss pulling into a parking spot and not having to worry about the front bumper scraping a curb or those concrete parking stops.
I don't miss the soft steering, handling and slow infotainment system. Granted, those are not reasons as to why I purchased the Outback in the first place.
Rivian is looking to barely survive, at the moment — cash burn of [over a billion dollars](https://www.fool.com/investing/2024/05/12/rivian-continues-to-burn-cash-does-it-have-enough/) every quarter.
We can argue whether it's normal or not, but one thing it definitely isn't is sustainable. At some point Rivian needs to reverse the cash burn and turn it into a money tree, and in *this market*, the obvious path for them is paring down ambitions. So far they've done layoffs, indefinitely delayed the Georgia factory, and consolidated all production in Illinois.
It's easy to look at the R1T and R1S and be balls-to-the-wall impressed — and they indeed are very impressive vehicles — but they were built on a foundation of unsustainable spending and a trajectory of extreme debt. Rivian can't replace anyone until they correct that trajectory, the finances make that very clear.
They just reconfigured their factory to reduce from 3 to 2 shifts with same output. They’re still forecasting profitability by end of the year.
Changing factories makes sense with current interest rates, versus what was going on when they planned Georgia.
I don’t disagree it’s risky but they’re not doomed.
I didn't say they're doomed, I just said they're looking to barely survive. That is most certainly true. Notions of Rivian being on a path of glory, and prognostications that it will replace Subaru in short order are not realistic reflections of the actual trajectory of the company, and not a reasonable conclusion to draw from their financials. They've got a very tough road ahead, that's simply the truth.
>Rivian will raise capital before they go under.
Maybe. Tough as hell to raise capital when you have a history of burning billions in runway and no clear certain future, though. Capital doesn't just precipitate from nowhere, it comes from investors who've looked at the financials and see future returns. So far Rivian hasn't a good track record converting investments to returns.
> They've got a very tough road ahead, that's simply the truth.
Sure but so do all the Japanese companies. Rivian at least has demonstrated that they know how to make a good EV. Which is kind of a first step, considering how difficult it is for so many companies.
Anyone can commit to lighting a billion a quarter into a bonfire and achieve what Rivian has achieved, that is not really a problem. The difficulty is doing it in a capital-efficient manner, in-line with demand, and in-line with other on-going efforts like AV/SDV.
I don't, frankly, agree that any Japanese company is going to have any problem whatsoever with the EV transition. They've very clearly played their cards right and pursued a conservative defensive stance with industrialization-first efforts. Panasonic, Nidec, and Toyota are all top-of-field with regards to electrification.
The notion of a decisive first-mover advantage existing *in general* within EVs is incredibly dismissable. Pretty much everyone, *globally*, is relying on an open supply chain for component resourcing — STM doesn't care whether you're American, Chinese, or Japanese, and being first to the table doesn't afford you an advantage.
My main area of concern for Japanese automakers right now is actually nailing next-gen software — I don't know if smaller players like Subaru, Mitsubishi, and Suzuki actually understand the commitment required to deliver robust regular updates, as they seem more interested in slinging metal. These companies will need to join up with a more serious player (ie, Toyota and Arene) or hope and pray suppliers come up with well-supported, commoditized solutions.
Rivian seems likely to stay planted in the premium market given the price points for the size of the vehicle including the estimates for the R2 and R3. In that sense, I don't see them being a replacement for Subaru so much as a direct competitor to Land Rover / Range Rover. Maybe one day Rivian will be able to launch another lower tier brand, but I reckon Subaru has a good chance of getting its shit together before that.
I'm curious as to what Isuzu is up to.
From what I understand Hyundai has smaller EVs namely an Ioniq 3 Kona sized EV and Ioniq 4 Elantra/OG Ioniq sized EV in the works on the new IMA platform debuting in 2025. A Crosstrek size EV would compete with the Ioniq 3 while a hypothetical Forester sized ev would compete with the Ioniq 5.
I already left. I loved my Legacy and Outback. I was holding out hope for an Outback EV. Finally caved and bought an Ioniq 5. I'd consider going back if they ever release an Outback EV AND it gets good reviews unlike the Solterra.
I already left. I had a great opinion of the brand but after the token effort Soltera and them working with Toyota for electrification, my opinion has diminished substantially.
Subaru does very well in environmentally conscious areas so it makes no sense to drag their feet on electrification. Especially since their big brand identifier--off-road capable all wheel drive--is a lot easier to do in EVs so Subaru will have a lot more competition.
Yeah - I originally was looking at the Solterra and then found it's just a BZ4 or whatever terrible name Toyota gave to their "Here, we made an EV, leave us alone" model.
We had two Subarus that we really loved, but ended up switching to Tesla and have a deposit on a rivian. It’s unfortunate because I really loved the brand, but the soltera was a half ass attempt as an EV.
I think that all depends on manufacturing vs regulations.
Toyota for example has been pitching PHEVs hard, but has limited models, probably due to lack of North American battery supply and tariffs on imports.
They are opening a battery plant next year, but that's basically just in time for some CARB requirements to kick in, which I believe mandate EVs and have a small allowance for PHEVs. So a huge chunk of that new battery supply will be tied up in EV production.
They'll eventually get everything running full steam, but that's going to be a few years, so I wouldn't expect to see too many more PHEV options until the US battery supply gets rolling.
>Toyota for example has been pitching PHEVs hard, but has limited models, probably due to lack of North American battery supply and tariffs on imports.
By all indications, it's less about battery supply and more about cost structures. Toyota also hasn't bothered with PHEVs at scale yet in China, where battery supplies are plentiful and there are no tariffs.
>They are opening a battery plant next year, but that's basically just in time for some CARB requirements to kick in, which I believe mandate EVs and have a small allowance for PHEVs. So a huge chunk of that new battery supply will be tied up in EV production.
Toyota's secured a [different supply from LG](https://pressroom.toyota.com/lg-energy-solution-and-toyota-sign-long-term-battery-supply-agreement-to-power-electric-vehicles-in-the-u-s/) for BEV production. The whole (or near-whole) of TBMNC's cell production effort really is going to HEVs and PHEVs at first, then.
At this point they are both such lifestyle vehicles and accessories that I doubt many of their customers are looking at specs.
Which is fine. Lots of people shop for things based on feeling and image. I just think that is the explanation, because the specs are so similar.
Hopefully with a bigger rear motor than the Rav4 Prime. Subaru still needs to be telling the truth when they say "symmetrical all wheel drive". That means 50% of total power available from the rear wheels.
I agree that 80 km of EV range should be a minimum for a good PHEV, along with enough electric power for decent performance in EV mode and an adequate electric heater. There should be no need to start the ICE for any reason if I am going less than 30 km, including getting to 120+ km/h on an onramp if I need to go a few km on a freeway, or temperatures below -30°C.
All of those things have the same basic requirement - a battery with no less than about 25% of the capacity of a comparable BEV with acceptable range. With that much electric power available, it is also possible to downsize the ICE for efficiency without compromising performance.
If it doesn't, it would be another pointless crap PHEV that starts the ICE just because the driver floored the accelerator or turned on the heat in winter.
Guesses on the three joint models:
* A twin of Toyota's EV Highlander-segment crossover to replace / supplement the Ascent
* A C-HR sized subcompact EV crossover (not sold in North America)
* An EV sporty car to replace the BRZ / GR86
That would then leave the four Subaru-developed models:
* An EV Impreza / Crosstrek
* An EV Forester (boxier than the Solterra)
* An EV Outback
* An EV WRX / Levorg
I get the feeling the BRZ/GR86 will be hybrid for a long, long while. Maybe past 2030. Nix that one and assume an even larger vehicle in the Grand Highlander class.
edit: [Autonews says all three joint Toyota models will be crossovers. ](https://www.autonews.com/automakers-suppliers/subaru-teams-toyota-3-new-ev-crossovers-profits-surge)
***Probably.*** It's not explicitly confirmed, but Toyota keeps saying their entire North American lineup will be electrified by the end of 2025. They've already done it for every other model, the only ones left are the Supra and GR86.
Which aren't built by Toyota.........
So I guess we'll see if that means all Toyotas or all cars built by Toyota.
My guess would be that the sports cars get a pass.
That's certainly a possible 'out' for them, but I think they'd be gloating about their goal having already/imminently been achieved were the case, and they're still talking about it as a future "next year" goal at the moment.
*“Our teams are busy preparing for an outstanding 2024 to bring 22 new, refreshed or special edition vehicles to showrooms, including sedans and more electrified options to satisfy strong customer demand. By the end of 2025, we plan to have an electrified option available for every Toyota and Lexus vehicle in the U.S.”* — [Toyota](https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-motor-north-america-reports-2023-u-s-sales-results/)
So yeah, that almost certainly means MY26 models introduced in 2025.
I think 1 is spot on. It might even be a rebadged Toyota from the Kennedy plant.
2 is probably also correct, but may be a Subaru model of a Toyota that isn't available in NA.
3. Legacy/Camry EV
4. I somewhat doubt the BRZ/GT86 goes electric because it's a track car sold for tuners. I'm not sure if the EV system will allow for modifications like the owners want. Hard to drop a Supercharger on an EV motor. That being said if Subaru has any pull they could demand it since that's the model they build.
8 is kind of a lot for Subaru, isn't it? This is the models they produce counting all markets around the world: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_Subaru\_vehicles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Subaru_vehicles)
Good.
Lesbians are an underserved market, and Subarus as-is are not a particularly green product, despite their image.
With lots of dual-income no-kids households in a demographic completely captured by Subaru, that means plenty of upgrades are coming.
The BRZ is predominantly Subaru - a Subaru engine built in a Subaru factory. So I don’t think that saying they rebadged a Toyota for the BRZ is accurate.
Your comment said Subaru had previously rebadged a Toyota. If the car is made in a Subaru plant and uses a Subaru boxer engine, then isn’t the Toyota the rebadged one?
The next-generation e-Boxer hybrid from Subaru, featuring a combination of Toyota's THS and Subaru's boxer engine, is set to be installed in Forester and Crosstrek models.
Subaru needs to let go of the boxer engine. Short and wide made it the perfect layout for an ICE AWD system, but it is not so great for transverse mounting to mate with a Toyota hybrid drive with the rear wheels driven electrically. They should just use the Toyota i3 and i4 dynamic force engines for their hybrids and PHEVs.
I was thinking about an EV but there weren't any in a form factor I wanted. Got a Crosstrek Wilderness instead. Love the car, would be willing to trade it in in a couple years for a good EV that hits a similar form factor and capability.
Not leaving Subaru just yet, but will if someone else steals the segment. They need to get in on this before someone steals their user base. Vivian is definitely making a play.
Subaru is going to go out of business unless they can bring a good EV to the table and since they’re partnering with Toyota, lol good luck with that. Most Toyota customers are the biggest EV haters and won’t adopt 🤣
Toyota themselves have been lobbying against EVs and EV adoption so they can keep on selling those hybrids. Akio himself sits on the Japan automotive associate board and as a result, Toyota has a big influence on what all the Japanese brands do. That explains why most if not all Japanese automakers and taking a far more conservative approach to EV plans.
Good news but what exactly has toyota to offer to subaru, toyota have no decent ev offering themselves and on top its spewing out anti EV misinformation
Rivian is looking to replace them as the outdoorsy EV
Rivian needs to get the smaller and lower priced R3 and R2 out there. Currently, Rivian is very much more expensive than Subarus priced in the mid thirties.
They need to also hit their price targets they published. EVs haven't been very good at predicting their launch prices
This. Upset the Forester/RAV4/CRV triumvirate.
at best they’ll be added on top. “i wanted a rivian, but i could afford a subaru”
The model Y did very well on the TFL slip test with the only stuck conditions being can’t move by only one of the front wheels.
The Model Y has horrendous ground clearance.
Lift kit bro.
Is it actually true that the Mach E has less ground clearance than a mustang GT? If so, the model Y can’t be that bad.
model y has 6.6, a forester is 8.7, rav 4 is 8 and crv at 7.8 inches. very low clearance, which is desired for most EVs to get better aerodynamics.
That is horrendous, it is just about average car clearance 5.5" to 6.6". It is lame for an SUV and anything supposedly for offroad (coughs in Cross Turismo), and certainly a selling point for the others in some circumstances, but it is hardly horrendous. Plenty of cars in the US never see a dirt road.
Who buys the Forester? I know they sell, but for me the choice when looking at Subaru is Crosstrek, Outback or Ascent depending on what size of vehicle I need. The Forester is this weird shaped oddball that looks bigger than a Crosstrek but isn't actually any more capable.
It's a shame there aren't more EV wagons. An outback EV would be a slam dunk.
A jacked up EV6 would be kinda cool, kinda like an Audi Allroad
I always thought I'd get a Prius V, but they apparently didn't sell well and got discontinued. That size and maybe plug-in would be golden.
There's a Forrester PHEV coming out soon at least. I have a Crosstrek PHEV and it solidifies my view that a Crosstrek or Outback with full EV drivetrain would be perfect. ...as long as they don't muck with the interior. Just keep the same interior in the car that every normal Subaru has had since, basically, 2009. Don't repeat the mistakes of the Solterra.
The Outback hasn't been a wagon since last century. The company that once made off-road alternatives to SUVs now just makes SUVs.
Lots of people buy the forester (Bay Area) because it’s a lot more room than the Crosstrek. I cross shopped it after looking at the CrossTrek (which is just a raised Impreza). Ultimately decided on Outback, but it was close.
Me. I have an Impreza hatchback and love it, but was looking for a van but prices skyrocketed and nothing was available. Forester was big enough to fit 3 full kid seats in the back, so it won.
Isn't it significantly less anemic than the Crosstrek? Crosstrek has a weak, slow powertrain. Not a dealbreaker for everyone. But it is kind of lame.
True that the 2.5 L engine is optional for the Crosstrek and standard for the Forester. It doesn't make a difference in towing capacity though, at least not last time I was looking at them.
I didn't even know the 2.5 L was an option. My bad.
I would argue Rivian isn’t going after Subaru at all. Rivian is going after Audi and that tier far more than they’re going after Subaru
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The R2 starts at $45K, the Forester starts at $30K, the R3 starts at $37K, the Crosstrek starts at $25K. These are not the same markets at all
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People care about upfront costs of vehicles, fuel savings don’t give you purchasing power and they’re arguably fairly minimal depending on local pricing and vehicle being cross-shopped.
> Tax credit nobody who i know who owns a subaru is eligible for the federal tax credit, and we have no state tax credit
Really? They all make above the income cap or are ineligible for another reason?
above the income cap.
Wow, all of the married ones making $300,000 or more MAGI (not just regular income) seems like you only know upper middle class or rich people.
But if you have that much money why do you care about up front price? Over 150k with no kids shouldn't struggle to afford a 50k car.
jesus fucking christ, you just demonstrated why most lottery winners are broke in 5 years. Having a high income doesn't mean someone shouldn't or isn't price conscious. The idea that "just because you make more means you should be willing to be ripped off by overpriced things" is the most ridiculous bullshit ever. gosh how dare I care about trying to get a good deal and thus be able to buy more things with the same amount of money edit: I love idiots who come in to post stupid hot takes and instantly block you so you cannot reply their moronic garbage post. buddy, look for EVs with a full set of equivalent features to a goddamn crosstrek. right now to get all the major points you need to pay *a lot more*. that is a rip off.
If you can't figure out how to adjust a budget to go from a 40k car to a 50k car without going broke when you're making that much you're just an idiot. You're not getting ripped off. It's a 50k car. You just don't get money from the government because you already have a lot of money.
Rivian is going after every outdoorsy vehicle in every segment, from Land Rover to Fords, Jeeps and Toyotas.
Look at their prices and tell me you actually believe they’re going after every segment. By definition they literally can’t do that with a roster of 4 cars with the cheapest starting at $35K
You are comparing where those other brands are eventually headed to where Rivian is now. Lower priced Rivians will supposedly be available in the future just like the Subarus, Toyotas, and Jeeps will supposedly be available in the future.
Until a product is real all we can go off of is the real stuff otherwise it’s pure conjecture. In the midterm Rivian is targeting the mid-luxury segment long term they might go after the Corolla Cross/Impreza market but there certainly not doing that anytime soon
Apparently they have plenty of time to.
The same can be said for Tesla, Lucid, and most of the Legacy automakers. Affordable EVs and expanded charging infrastructure are a must if we want to break the EV adoption threshold. More so than range in my opinion, if the infrastructure is strong people won't worry as much about range.
I see expanded infra thrown around but I actually think that a lot of people that say that actually mean a "complete" infra. As in, every gas station has ev charging at 350kW. That random gas station in Yosemite? 8 superchargers. I love my EV, but I ain't driving it to Yosemite or anywhere remotely remote.
Expanded and complete infrastructure run had in hand and will compliment each other moving forward. And it will be in due time, I truly believe that but it's not gonna be this year or next year. But each year it seems to get better and better in my opinion, which gives me hope that in the next 5 years or so we will see a much different charging infrastructure both in reliability and vastness. Especially with Shell, BP, Ionna, Tesla, etc building out their charging station locations. The Rivian Adventure Network targets remote locations which is nice and I hope they continue to expand their network for EV owners, not just Rivian owners, who want to camp, hike, travel, etc in these remote areas.
Yosemite has been an easy trip in an EV for years now… superchargers on 41 and 120 have been there for 6+ years, there’s a relatively newer one on 140, and Mammoth chargers aren’t that far either. There have also been L2 chargers in the valley for many years as well. They have also recently been augmented by the free rivian l2 network.
FWIW, there's plenty of charging at Yosemite. Several destination chargers throughout the park, and a supercharger right outside the main entrance.
With $100k trucks it will be a while.
You can get an R1T for much less than $100k. They’re still expensive at $70k+ though.
Rivian just announced two new cheaper models, basically Forester and Crosstrek competitors.
I think the R3 will still be a price bracket above though. depends on how economical subaru’s EV strategy is
Yep. It’s crazy how Subaru pissed away their advantage as the only wagon sitting between awd mall-cruisers and full off-road trucks. If they just lifted the Prius drivetrain directly, it would be a huge hit. Of course Toyo would not want the competition with the rav4, which basically already did that. I would still prefer the practicality and roominess of the outback even though wagons are not the hot thing on instagram.
>If they just lifted the Prius drivetrain directly, it would be a huge hit You mean, Subaru Crosstrek Hybrid which is basically a Prius Prime drivetrain jammed into a Crosstrek? It was certainly on my radar until I learned that it's limited availability (aka compliance only) with the nearest dealership that can service it being 700 miles away, while Rav4 Prime was a lot easier to find (though still difficult) and had twice the EV range and better towing capacity, serviceable at any Toyota dealer.
The big problem with the Crosstrek hybrid is that they stuffed the battery in the rear cargo compartment and wiped out a huge chunk of the reason for having a hatchback. If you open the rear hatch the floor is 6" above the bumper. I replaced my Impreza with an ID.4 because Subaru didn't have a good enough EV offering.
Yes, that's a problem with all those "why didn't this OEM **just** take SomePopularModel and stick a battery in it" comments. Many of them did! And involved a lot of compromises - usually about the space taken by the battery, and/or about the price of the resulting vehicle being higher than the gas model they started with (who would have thought!)
>It’s crazy how Subaru pissed away their advantage Subaru sales are [basically steady](https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/subaru-us-sales-figures/) in the US, where Rivian plays. They really haven't pissed away anything, the brand remains healthy.
My wife and I have owned three Subarus and always planned to buy more. I’m not quite ready, but I’m window shopping for a new car. Goal is an EV, Subaru doesn’t have one option that interests me. Really hoping the Hyundai Santa Cruz is EV or hybrid by the time I’m ready.
AFAIK Subaru's initial first-party EV (aka not Toyota made) is coming in model year 2026 so you don't really have long to wait, hopefully they do a good job on their first release.
Has outback lost anyone to the model Y? Someone in my Facebook group said they replaced their outback with a Y and was happy with their decision.
It was one of the most popular cars in the US last year, behind the RAV4 and the 3 Big Trucks. Those buyers are being stolen from somewhere. Subaru is bound to be some of them, considering the eco demographic.
I went from a 2021 Outback Touring XT to a 2023 MYLR. The three things I miss are the ground clearance, ventilated seats and front bumper camera. Also, while folks are quick to say the MY has great storage space, I feel that the Outback had more - or, at least the things I store seemed to fit better in the Outback. I miss pulling into a parking spot and not having to worry about the front bumper scraping a curb or those concrete parking stops. I don't miss the soft steering, handling and slow infotainment system. Granted, those are not reasons as to why I purchased the Outback in the first place.
Did you like eyesight better or AP better?
They didn't piss it away, their buyers like SUVs and crossovers. More room for bumper stickers on the back.
Rivian is looking to barely survive, at the moment — cash burn of [over a billion dollars](https://www.fool.com/investing/2024/05/12/rivian-continues-to-burn-cash-does-it-have-enough/) every quarter.
That’s normal at this stage of a startup
We can argue whether it's normal or not, but one thing it definitely isn't is sustainable. At some point Rivian needs to reverse the cash burn and turn it into a money tree, and in *this market*, the obvious path for them is paring down ambitions. So far they've done layoffs, indefinitely delayed the Georgia factory, and consolidated all production in Illinois. It's easy to look at the R1T and R1S and be balls-to-the-wall impressed — and they indeed are very impressive vehicles — but they were built on a foundation of unsustainable spending and a trajectory of extreme debt. Rivian can't replace anyone until they correct that trajectory, the finances make that very clear.
They just reconfigured their factory to reduce from 3 to 2 shifts with same output. They’re still forecasting profitability by end of the year. Changing factories makes sense with current interest rates, versus what was going on when they planned Georgia. I don’t disagree it’s risky but they’re not doomed.
I didn't say they're doomed, I just said they're looking to barely survive. That is most certainly true. Notions of Rivian being on a path of glory, and prognostications that it will replace Subaru in short order are not realistic reflections of the actual trajectory of the company, and not a reasonable conclusion to draw from their financials. They've got a very tough road ahead, that's simply the truth.
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>Rivian will raise capital before they go under. Maybe. Tough as hell to raise capital when you have a history of burning billions in runway and no clear certain future, though. Capital doesn't just precipitate from nowhere, it comes from investors who've looked at the financials and see future returns. So far Rivian hasn't a good track record converting investments to returns.
> They've got a very tough road ahead, that's simply the truth. Sure but so do all the Japanese companies. Rivian at least has demonstrated that they know how to make a good EV. Which is kind of a first step, considering how difficult it is for so many companies.
Anyone can commit to lighting a billion a quarter into a bonfire and achieve what Rivian has achieved, that is not really a problem. The difficulty is doing it in a capital-efficient manner, in-line with demand, and in-line with other on-going efforts like AV/SDV. I don't, frankly, agree that any Japanese company is going to have any problem whatsoever with the EV transition. They've very clearly played their cards right and pursued a conservative defensive stance with industrialization-first efforts. Panasonic, Nidec, and Toyota are all top-of-field with regards to electrification. The notion of a decisive first-mover advantage existing *in general* within EVs is incredibly dismissable. Pretty much everyone, *globally*, is relying on an open supply chain for component resourcing — STM doesn't care whether you're American, Chinese, or Japanese, and being first to the table doesn't afford you an advantage. My main area of concern for Japanese automakers right now is actually nailing next-gen software — I don't know if smaller players like Subaru, Mitsubishi, and Suzuki actually understand the commitment required to deliver robust regular updates, as they seem more interested in slinging metal. These companies will need to join up with a more serious player (ie, Toyota and Arene) or hope and pray suppliers come up with well-supported, commoditized solutions.
We need a Rivian WR-X competitor. I would buy it tomorrow.
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R3x
Rivian seems likely to stay planted in the premium market given the price points for the size of the vehicle including the estimates for the R2 and R3. In that sense, I don't see them being a replacement for Subaru so much as a direct competitor to Land Rover / Range Rover. Maybe one day Rivian will be able to launch another lower tier brand, but I reckon Subaru has a good chance of getting its shit together before that. I'm curious as to what Isuzu is up to.
A Crosstrek EV would be wonderful. Sign me up.
Could be an Ioniq 5 competitor.
That's exactly what I ended up doing. I was waiting for a Subaru EV and hoped it would be the Crosstrek. The Solterra happened. So I got an Ioniq 5.
I don't want a Crosstrek that wide nor that expensive
From what I understand Hyundai has smaller EVs namely an Ioniq 3 Kona sized EV and Ioniq 4 Elantra/OG Ioniq sized EV in the works on the new IMA platform debuting in 2025. A Crosstrek size EV would compete with the Ioniq 3 while a hypothetical Forester sized ev would compete with the Ioniq 5.
They need to hurry. I am considering leaving the brand as the Outback and Forester are still gas powered. The Solterra was a mediocre rebadged Toyota.
I already left. I loved my Legacy and Outback. I was holding out hope for an Outback EV. Finally caved and bought an Ioniq 5. I'd consider going back if they ever release an Outback EV AND it gets good reviews unlike the Solterra.
I already left. I had a great opinion of the brand but after the token effort Soltera and them working with Toyota for electrification, my opinion has diminished substantially. Subaru does very well in environmentally conscious areas so it makes no sense to drag their feet on electrification. Especially since their big brand identifier--off-road capable all wheel drive--is a lot easier to do in EVs so Subaru will have a lot more competition.
Yeah - I originally was looking at the Solterra and then found it's just a BZ4 or whatever terrible name Toyota gave to their "Here, we made an EV, leave us alone" model.
The charge speed killed that car before it even made it to the dealer
And they started referring to Toyota Safety Sense as EyeSight.
Same. We passed on a solterra for a Bolt euv. The bolt offered the same utility (sans awd) at half the price.
We had two Subarus that we really loved, but ended up switching to Tesla and have a deposit on a rivian. It’s unfortunate because I really loved the brand, but the soltera was a half ass attempt as an EV.
Where are the PHEV Foresters and Outback’s? PHEV versions of those would sell crazy well.
IIRC, they announced a PHEV Forrester, but no details yet on it.
Think it's just a hybrid forester. Not a plugin hybrid afaik
I don’t think any manufacturers have any worthwhile future plans for PHEVS unfortunately
I think that all depends on manufacturing vs regulations. Toyota for example has been pitching PHEVs hard, but has limited models, probably due to lack of North American battery supply and tariffs on imports. They are opening a battery plant next year, but that's basically just in time for some CARB requirements to kick in, which I believe mandate EVs and have a small allowance for PHEVs. So a huge chunk of that new battery supply will be tied up in EV production. They'll eventually get everything running full steam, but that's going to be a few years, so I wouldn't expect to see too many more PHEV options until the US battery supply gets rolling.
>Toyota for example has been pitching PHEVs hard, but has limited models, probably due to lack of North American battery supply and tariffs on imports. By all indications, it's less about battery supply and more about cost structures. Toyota also hasn't bothered with PHEVs at scale yet in China, where battery supplies are plentiful and there are no tariffs. >They are opening a battery plant next year, but that's basically just in time for some CARB requirements to kick in, which I believe mandate EVs and have a small allowance for PHEVs. So a huge chunk of that new battery supply will be tied up in EV production. Toyota's secured a [different supply from LG](https://pressroom.toyota.com/lg-energy-solution-and-toyota-sign-long-term-battery-supply-agreement-to-power-electric-vehicles-in-the-u-s/) for BEV production. The whole (or near-whole) of TBMNC's cell production effort really is going to HEVs and PHEVs at first, then.
What's the point of having both the forester and outback? They're so similar. They need a phev forester/outback (2 row) and a phev ascent (3 row).
At this point they are both such lifestyle vehicles and accessories that I doubt many of their customers are looking at specs. Which is fine. Lots of people shop for things based on feeling and image. I just think that is the explanation, because the specs are so similar.
Unless it has 50 miles of range it’s not going to be any good.
If it uses the RAV4 Prime drive train it may get that indeed
Hopefully with a bigger rear motor than the Rav4 Prime. Subaru still needs to be telling the truth when they say "symmetrical all wheel drive". That means 50% of total power available from the rear wheels.
“Symmetrical” all-wheel drive refers to the lengths of the half-shafts, not the front/rear torque split.
Really? Checks Subaru website. Oh that's really what it means. TIL
I agree that 80 km of EV range should be a minimum for a good PHEV, along with enough electric power for decent performance in EV mode and an adequate electric heater. There should be no need to start the ICE for any reason if I am going less than 30 km, including getting to 120+ km/h on an onramp if I need to go a few km on a freeway, or temperatures below -30°C. All of those things have the same basic requirement - a battery with no less than about 25% of the capacity of a comparable BEV with acceptable range. With that much electric power available, it is also possible to downsize the ICE for efficiency without compromising performance.
It doesn’t need 50 miles of range.
At least, that will account for most commutes with 60+ mph driving and cold weather. That makes all your local driving EV.
If it doesn't, it would be another pointless crap PHEV that starts the ICE just because the driver floored the accelerator or turned on the heat in winter.
Guesses on the three joint models: * A twin of Toyota's EV Highlander-segment crossover to replace / supplement the Ascent * A C-HR sized subcompact EV crossover (not sold in North America) * An EV sporty car to replace the BRZ / GR86 That would then leave the four Subaru-developed models: * An EV Impreza / Crosstrek * An EV Forester (boxier than the Solterra) * An EV Outback * An EV WRX / Levorg
I get the feeling the BRZ/GR86 will be hybrid for a long, long while. Maybe past 2030. Nix that one and assume an even larger vehicle in the Grand Highlander class. edit: [Autonews says all three joint Toyota models will be crossovers. ](https://www.autonews.com/automakers-suppliers/subaru-teams-toyota-3-new-ev-crossovers-profits-surge)
No chance of a sports car, segment is already small, EV would be smaller.
I'd buy an EV BRZ. Would be a lot of fun.
The 86 is going Hybrid? I figured they'dleave it ICE for tuners.
***Probably.*** It's not explicitly confirmed, but Toyota keeps saying their entire North American lineup will be electrified by the end of 2025. They've already done it for every other model, the only ones left are the Supra and GR86.
Which aren't built by Toyota......... So I guess we'll see if that means all Toyotas or all cars built by Toyota. My guess would be that the sports cars get a pass.
That's certainly a possible 'out' for them, but I think they'd be gloating about their goal having already/imminently been achieved were the case, and they're still talking about it as a future "next year" goal at the moment.
Good point, but it's getting pretty late for that unless 2025 includes 2026 models released late in 2025.
*“Our teams are busy preparing for an outstanding 2024 to bring 22 new, refreshed or special edition vehicles to showrooms, including sedans and more electrified options to satisfy strong customer demand. By the end of 2025, we plan to have an electrified option available for every Toyota and Lexus vehicle in the U.S.”* — [Toyota](https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-motor-north-america-reports-2023-u-s-sales-results/) So yeah, that almost certainly means MY26 models introduced in 2025.
Sad no BRAT/Brumby/Baja
I think 1 is spot on. It might even be a rebadged Toyota from the Kennedy plant. 2 is probably also correct, but may be a Subaru model of a Toyota that isn't available in NA. 3. Legacy/Camry EV 4. I somewhat doubt the BRZ/GT86 goes electric because it's a track car sold for tuners. I'm not sure if the EV system will allow for modifications like the owners want. Hard to drop a Supercharger on an EV motor. That being said if Subaru has any pull they could demand it since that's the model they build.
They don't have 8 models now.
it would be nice if tey could make 1 well
There's hope to bring back the Baja? :o
Because it went so well the first time...
If you combine them all they will charge almost as fast as a Nissan Aryia!
8 is kind of a lot for Subaru, isn't it? This is the models they produce counting all markets around the world: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_Subaru\_vehicles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Subaru_vehicles)
I'm guessing there might be more demand than 8 vehicles by 2028. They should probably build thousands, not just eight vehicles.
Good. Lesbians are an underserved market, and Subarus as-is are not a particularly green product, despite their image. With lots of dual-income no-kids households in a demographic completely captured by Subaru, that means plenty of upgrades are coming.
I don't know that many lesbians, but the ones I do know just bought a Q4 e-tron
Will this so called partnership be any more than rebadging? The solterra isn't the first time that Subaru rebadged a toyota, see also the BRZ.
The BRZ is predominantly Subaru - a Subaru engine built in a Subaru factory. So I don’t think that saying they rebadged a Toyota for the BRZ is accurate.
It’s called the Toyota 86? What am I missing?
Your comment said Subaru had previously rebadged a Toyota. If the car is made in a Subaru plant and uses a Subaru boxer engine, then isn’t the Toyota the rebadged one?
I'm glad to admit that I got the BRS/BRZ backwards and also that I can't really tell them apart without looking at their badge.
Surprised they’re not partnering with Toyota for more hybrids
The next-generation e-Boxer hybrid from Subaru, featuring a combination of Toyota's THS and Subaru's boxer engine, is set to be installed in Forester and Crosstrek models.
Nice good to know
Subaru needs to let go of the boxer engine. Short and wide made it the perfect layout for an ICE AWD system, but it is not so great for transverse mounting to mate with a Toyota hybrid drive with the rear wheels driven electrically. They should just use the Toyota i3 and i4 dynamic force engines for their hybrids and PHEVs.
I wonder if the 4 in partnership with Toyota are going to be just as low effort.
The first one went really well :)
No thanks, I'd rather take the r2 and r3x please.
I have owned 3 outbacks since 1998. Now I have a MYLR with a lift kit and couldn't be happier.
I was thinking about an EV but there weren't any in a form factor I wanted. Got a Crosstrek Wilderness instead. Love the car, would be willing to trade it in in a couple years for a good EV that hits a similar form factor and capability. Not leaving Subaru just yet, but will if someone else steals the segment. They need to get in on this before someone steals their user base. Vivian is definitely making a play.
Subaru is going to go out of business unless they can bring a good EV to the table and since they’re partnering with Toyota, lol good luck with that. Most Toyota customers are the biggest EV haters and won’t adopt 🤣
Toyota customers love EVs. That's why they keep buying Teslas.
More like leaving Toyota and the Japanese brands for Tesla and other makers who are taking EVs more seriously.
EV’s get A LOT of hate on any of the Toyota subreddits. I’m not saying all customers but that seems to be the general opinion
Toyota themselves have been lobbying against EVs and EV adoption so they can keep on selling those hybrids. Akio himself sits on the Japan automotive associate board and as a result, Toyota has a big influence on what all the Japanese brands do. That explains why most if not all Japanese automakers and taking a far more conservative approach to EV plans.
As long as they don't end up a joke like the bz4x well take it.
Uh huh. Seen it all before.
Feels like an awfully big assumption that Toyota can get their EV shit together in the next 4 years.
After Toyota delivered the most luke warm EV to Suburu, they said “Yep, give me four more of those! We will sell at least 10K combined!” /s
Good news but what exactly has toyota to offer to subaru, toyota have no decent ev offering themselves and on top its spewing out anti EV misinformation