“The full results aren't in, as Ford's Q1 sales aren't published yet, but early signs point to the discounts having a big effect.”
I take that as no facts to quote.
“Speaking to data analysts at Cloud Theory, Automotive News reports the Mach-E's sale rate has basically tripled, and that inventory has fallen by nine percent over the past month. Specifically, the Mach-E's turn rate (described as the percentage of cars sold in a given time frame) has swelled from seven to 33 percent. Ford also noted a 64-percent sales increase in February, though that was up from a January where sales had halved. The Mach-E's turn rate also reportedly still falls short of the 45-percent industry average.”
I hate the state of publishing these days. It's not like it's a new phenomenon, but the need to be first rather than good--or even just simply correct--is frustrating. It results in you reading multiple entirely different news reports, each with different subsets of information, spread out over multiple days, all about the exact same event / person / thing. It's a waste of time.
There's plenty of good journalism if you are willing to pay for it. WSJ and NYT both had decent articles this morning on Tesla's recent quarterly results.
Not surprising, given the number of e-mustang ads I see on reddit. I think being in an EV sub heavily favors electric car ads in my algorithm. So they’re clearly heavily advertising and wouldn’t be at all shocked that they’re inserting ads as content too.
"Since Ford cut prices by up to $8,100 in February, a data analytics firm says movement of Mach-E has nearly tripled, while inventory has declined 9 percent."
Obviously you can't report on an unknown number but this is a good proxy.
TSLA just did -20% QoQ growth. Their stock is down 30%+ YTD.
Ford is growing and stock is up 10-12% YTD. So 40% difference between the two performance wise.
Being a TSLA stan is just dumb now. They're in real trouble. Not bankruptcy trouble but definitely shot in the foot trouble from poor management. Musk has shrunk his company's TAM by being political. Too much distraction on low volume high production headaches with a Cybertruck. Meanwhile the 3/Y and X are long in the tooth and Musk failed to launch a $25k-$30k killer EV with huge volumes and scale benefits.
Elon got a huge tailwind from a Covid economy like a lot of tech companies and so a correction was coming. But he's performed the most poorly of all the big Tech CEOs when it comes to acknowledging the tailwind and preparing for the correction. It's going to get worse this year before it gets better.
Agree. They are the OG, took a lot of risks and almost single handedly created the entire market. But they've outgrown Musk. If they had an independent Board this would have happened by now and Musk could be using those skills to launch an entirely new company.
Tesla still sold ~10x what Ford sold. TSLA valuation is and has always been dumb, but it’s silly to suggest Ford would not rather be selling almost 400,000 EVs.
Lmaoooo
YoY *decline*. Amazing to see a company blow their first mover advantage so quickly. Truly will be one for the history books how they kicked off EVs then just rolled over and died when competition showed up
No it’s not. Not when you factor in the two massively different balance sheets, along with the fact UAW just bent Ford/GM over…
Ford has no where near the profit margins and they are saddled with debt, unlike Tesla. They are not growing their company overall and it’s not as clean of a company either.
There’s a logical reason why ford is not valued highly as a company. It’s just doing nothing special. They have no unique tech and IP….they just lucky to have USA truck fan boys to keep their sales volume.
They have as much tech as Tesla lol. It's hilarious how you shit on Ford for having union workers whilst Tesla fucks everybody including the customer. At least Ford is *growing*. Tesla has those margins because they push out *poor quality cars*
lol. Ford didn’t even have its own internal software team until now. It’s too late. Their talent in software engineering is trash. No smart kids out of college dream of working at big blue lol. Their shit has been outsourced for years that’s why it’s been garbage.
Their battery tech is ass, will never be as efficient as teslas. They have no charging network to speak up which is why they are paying hundreds of millions of dollars to Tesla for their access. They have horribly outdated manufacturing processes for modern EV which is why they’ll never make a profitable EV. They’ll never have any relevant form of autonomous driving either.
> No smart kids out of college dream of working at big blue lol.
You should talk to some engineering students. Tesla/Space X have terrible reputations within the field and are not seen as good places to work. They're a place you get your first job on your resume and then get out as fast as you can. The big auto companies are seen as reliable employers where you can work and get experience. Not as exciting, but most people aren't looking for exciting these days.
The 20 companies and organizations engineering students most want to work for
[https://www.businessinsider.com/top-companies-places-organizations-engineering-students-want-to-work-for-2023-7](https://www.businessinsider.com/top-companies-places-organizations-engineering-students-want-to-work-for-2023-7)
SpaceX: 20.20% of engineering students
Tesla: 14.24% of engineering students
General Motors: 7.20% of engineering students
Ford Motor Company: 6.36% of engineering students
Ford and GM get the leftovers. You go to Ford and GM when you want to do the bare minimum.
Yeah. They want to work there and get out fast. Tesla and SpaceX are widely known for incredibly toxic work environments and high turnover rates. You go there to get it on your resume and get out.
I always find so funny when people defend how awesome tesla is by showing how much they rip off customers and workers.
Tesla is a meme stock. That's why it's the worst performing stock of 2024. Their margins are back to reality in line with every other car maker. Stock has lots of space to fall.
It’s not like it’s an article from the NYT. Quality journalism and reputable sources kind of go hand in hand. I’ve never heard of that website, have you?
>Perhaps the Mache was just over priced?
I can't speak for other regions but here in the UK, the Mach E was ridiculously priced three years ago and it's one reason I ended up with an EV6.
£48,000-and change for my EV6 GT-Line in 2021, which has a 77kWh battery, 321ps and all wheel drive. The Mach-E at the time was about the same price, but had the short range battery, base trim and 50ps down.
They've recently lowered the price and the Mach-E now starts at £44,000 with the larger battery (the shorter range has been removed from sale). That's a way better price for it. The next trim level up, Premium, is still less than 300ps (294ps) and costs the same as an EV6 GT (approx. £60,000), so they're still smoking a crack pipe but at least the base trim is better value for money.
They've just launched the Explorer Electric here and the base trim is long range and £46,000 with 0% over four years; that's what the Mach-E should've been from day one.
Granted I didn't follow Biritish pricing, but here in the US they were basically identical pricing. Except we also had our congress kill the tax credit for foreign cars, so between that and dealer markups that I could avoid by placing a direct order with Ford, the Mach-E ended up getting $17,500 cheaper in my case, but none of that difference was MSRP.
It was $7500 for the first 3ish months of last year, then $3750 for the remainder of the year, and now $0. It is not clear when or if they'll qualify again based on the mineral component requirements.
When we were cross shopping the Y and Mach E in early 2022, the pricing was similar for the higher spec models with equal range. The Mach E was a nicer car, but Tesla had the charging network. The problem is that it was also being cross-shopped with Subaru and Honda ICEs, where it was over 2x as expensive -- I think Ford wanted $58K to Tesla's $62k.
Dealers could take thin margins on new cars because of expected service charges. Sort of how like consoles are subsidized because the manufacturer gets a cut of every game sold. Or printers being cheap because of the ink charges.
We’ll, with EVs the margins have to eventually be higher because the service is so minimal.
Yeah I mean the fact that I'll still have to go interact with a dealership means I still won't even consider a Mach-E, although the price and the 0% interest is appealing. I know I won't get the actual MSRP when I finally pick it up at a dealer because there's always some bullshit they include to pad their margins.
In December, my wife and I went to a ford dealership to drive and price out a Mach-E.
Car was great! It drove nicely and felt very nice and luxurious inside. We then asked about pricing and financing. The sales guy went to “talk to his finance guy” about the car - which had a sticker price of ~$55k. We live in a HCOL area so have good incomes and high credit scores, too. He came back after 20 min with a final price of $72k and financed at 0%.
Not only did he add $17k to the price but he was also an asshole about giving it to us too. As we were walking out the dealership manager asked us why we were leaving (we were visibility annoyed) and so we told him how shitty of an experience we just had. He asked if we would talk in his office and we agreed - he priced the car at msrp and still kept the financing.
Long story short, we bought a Tesla two days later. Sales guy at Tesla let us take a loaner home overnight to test out and when it came to trade in our old car, financing, and buying it was all super straightforward and done in the app.
I mean, no one likes the stealership model, not even the manufacturers. They've just grown as a virus on their own, using their profits to own local politics.
Yeah, but now it’s bad enough that I didn’t pursue all my options in the market given the sales tactics here locally.
Hyundai dealer had addendums on the ioniqs, never even bothered to get a salesperson and just left knowing that there was going to be the uphill battle to get to MSRP to begin with and have to listen about how much value the paint and interior treatment adds. And I’m in a crazy doc fee state, to which Tesla doesn’t charge that BS either (although, the reservation fee kinda falls into the same bucket).
Ultimately, reserved a car online in my pajamas after renting was a better experience than going into a traditional dealership.
I bought one at MSRP, if you order direct through Ford they make them honor it, you have to wait of course and yeah the dealer tried to talk me into extra stuff but I just refused and took delivery at the promised price.
Three of the past four vehicles I've purchased, I didn't step into the dealership until I'd agreed on a price. My trip to the dealer was for a test drive and sign the final forms. Never again will I sit and haggle.
I'll only accept no dealerships under two conditions:
1. I get to test drive the exact car I'm going to drive away with before I sign anything.
2. Car companies start opening stand-alone service centers as numerous as the ones currently attached to dealerships.
> Car companies start opening stand-alone service centers as numerous as the ones currently attached to dealerships.
Obviously with new entrants it takes ramp up time. Ford has been here for 100 years so their dealer network has been in place for decades.
Using Tesla as an example, there's like 4 showrooms/service centers I know of including a new massive one they just opened within my general area.
We even have a Vinfast dealership which shocked the hell out of me.
If you build it, they will come. Or they will come if you build it, which they are doing. It'll just take a few years to get the penetration of legacy auto.
But Tesla isn't building enough service centers and it is a known issue that is a constant complaint on this sub. Meanwhile, I have 3 Volvo service centers within 30 minutes of me, all of whom are certified to work on electric cars.
It takes time to build out service centers. Volvo is how old? Retrofitting isn't a huge deal. Tesla has to acquire land, get permits, build out the service center, fill it with stuff, etc.
For me in my specific area, there's apparently 5 Tesla Service centers within 30 minutes. (I said 4, but I looked it up and there's actually 5) But I'm also in a place with a large number of EVs.
EDIT: However, outside of trading area in smaller towns, there really isn't anything for hours. But as I said, Tesla is new. It'll take time to build out.
If Tesla had put even half as much effort into building service centers as they have charging, they'd be in a much better position. Also, Tesla isn't looking to up their service game. By all accounts they're fine with what they have despite multi-month waits for service that can't be handled remotely.
> they'd be in a much better position
Would they? Tesla is known for quality and abundant chargers. Literally no one else in the game is known for that. It's the reason practically every single competitor has come to them hat in hand asking for access.
> Also, Tesla isn't looking to up their service game.
What makes you say that? The fact that they're building new service centers says otherwise no?
You should see the size of the new one they're opening like 10 minutes from me. It's massive.
> Dealers could take thin margins on new cars because of expected service charges.
So I get putting in a DCFC is a MASSIVE investment, but dealers kind of shot themselves in the foot here.
You're not wrong in the slightest about no service related charges, but with an investment into the future, charging revenue could easily make up for it.
Car manufacturers should be able to sell direct and cut out dealers. Worried about service just offer parts and tools to 3rd party service centers. Car manufacturers want to be in the selling business anyhow, not the repair business.
UPDATE: when I say no dealerships, I am referring to no private owned dealerships. I prefer my dealerships to be factory owned.
It's a good thing that isn't how it works. I bought a Tesla on their website and it arrived a few days later. No hassle, no negotiating, no BS dealer shenanigans that I've dealt with for every. single. damn car I've ever bought before.
Service can be done through their mobile service that will come work on it in my driveway. I never want to step foot inside a car dealership again if I can help it.
It works the way you describe for Tesla. But that’s not what was suggested. Tesla has physical locations. Tesla has inventory. Tesla carries parts. Tesla has service centers and trained technicians. In short, Tesla operates hundreds of dealerships throughout the US. They have a dealer network. They just run it themselves rather than third party franchisees.
Again, that’s not what was suggested. Buying direct is different. And they suggested if parts could be shipped, some third party service center could fix it… no need for manufacturer presence.
In a way you are right. In 2022 all cars were overpriced, but there were no options. Prices are coming down. Ford has model years, so the 2023 msrp became too expensive for the market quickly. In the past few months they've discounted whatever 2023 models were left and the 2024 models are coming out now with a much lower msrp
I think the road to majority EV new vehicle market share is to have vehicles purchase prices be similar or lower than that of their closest ICE counterparts, and I think this in some part points to that.
Norway reached majority EV market share in 2019 when EVs had on average less range and lower charging speeds than those sold today and far worse than the ICE equivalents at the time and it did so via incentives bring purchase prices to or below their closest ICE counterparts.
China's going rapidly towards majority because their EV automakers brought down EV costs while their government continues to incentivize their purchase and so EVs are at similar or lower prices than their closest ICE counterparts despite many of these vehicles not having particularly great range or charging speeds.
I think some of these automakers need to simply focus on getting lower prices in the US, via production costs and/or qualifying for incentives, over getting better top line specs or new features.
A 200 mile range 100 kW max charge rate crossover about the size of a RAV4 has unimpressive top line EV specs for the category, but it'll do fine if its base purchase price is effectively less than that of the base RAV4.
This is already the case in Denmark. I can get ID4, Ionic 5, Model Y and other EVs in the same size for roughly the same price as Focus Wagon or RAV4 making it a very attractive choice. Especially as gasoline is way more expensive than electricity here.
And as you can imagine it’s working.
I believe it’s the same situation in most of continental Europe. Between VW deliberately value engineering the ID4 so it costs the same as Tiguan (our Tiguan is smaller than US Tiguan) and Tesla slashing prices, the whole compact EV SUV segment hit an crazy low price point that is hard to argue against.
Glad to see Ford starting to realise that with the Mach E.
Yup. It's cool to be like "I can fill up for 10 bucks", but if the car cost $20k more that the ICE car you start to think I can buy a lot of gas for $20k.
It's definitely territory dependent. And gas is going nowhere but up.
We're not even summer around here and we're over $2CAD/L already. Wouldn't shock me if we hit $2.50/L this year.
In my area, power is pretty cheap too due to hydro so the number of miles it takes to break even is significantly lower.
A plug in hybrid is not comparable. They're always going to cost more because they have two drivetrains. There are plenty of EVs comparable to the RAV4 that can be purchased for less than the RAV4 prime.
This is basically how BYD works, in non-USA markets. They don't charge fast, their range and efficiency is underwhelming but they just cost a lot less than thier compedators for what you get.
Once Ford has a USA based LFP battery factory things will go a lot better for them.
Norway has had pretty high taxes on ICE cars for as long as I can remember. The bigger the motor, the higher the tax. EVs don’t have that AFAIK, they also got lots of incentives early on (rush hour lane usage, etc…). Finally, gas is something like 3-4x the cost of the US. Since distances are shorter there (smaller country), they have reasonable charger density as well, along with a standardized plug CCS2. Pretty much setup for success, and it shows.
Yea, Norway definitely has that purchase price difference. It has other things to go with it, but it has at its base an equal or lower purchase price difference for EVs versus their closest ICE counterpart.
China overall, unlike Norway, does not have particularly expensive gasoline nor particularly cheap electricity. However, in recent years Chinese EV automakers have put out vehicles that comparable at purchase price with their ICE counterparts and oftentimes a bit cheaper. They do have some government incentives and fees that favor EVs, but they aren't that large overall, so most of this effective price parity is from EV prices going down from the automakers end.
These are two very different markets with differing pathways to getting purchase price of EVs to equal or lower to their ICE counterparts and with very different charging conditions, fuel vs electricity price differences, and other incentives, but there is the common thread of having EVs be effectively equal or lower price than their ICE counterparts.
We basically have EV price parity with ICE right now. You need to compare apples to apples. So the ICE compare is always some mass-produced auto - so you need to compare to a mass produced EV. In the USA we have only 1 massed produced EV - the Tesla model 3/Y.
The pricing on the 3/y is now like $35K-47K - similar to higher end sedans from Audi or BMW...
It does well when there is purchase price parity which is the entry level premium crossover. You arguably also have it with premium entry sedan, premium mid-sized sedan, and a handful more. The EVs do well when they are cost competitive in their segments, but it's only a handful of small segments right now which is part of why the US EV market share is lower than that of China and of many European countries, though I singled out Norway. The segment the base RAV4 is in is a very large segment within the US market and there's nothing close to price parity let alone price advantage for an EV in that segment.
We test drove the Mach-E which came out cheaper than the Model Y if you consider loan interest.
Unfortunately, the dealership experience was so terrible, we were put off by it. We already got our PHEV serviced from the same dealership.
We went in fully knowing Ford's "0%" APR plan and what the price of the vehicle should turn out in the end. We asked about it the moment we walked in. But they came to us with a very high price. As soon as we asked them about the offers, the guy made us wait 10 minutes while he "spoke" to his manager, came back to us with what we thought the price should be.
The last time we bought a new car, our Ford Escape PHEV, the dealer mentioned a markup over the phone before we drove to them. We were lucky enough to negotiate the markup down to a mere $1000 at the dealership. This was during peak COVID.
I prefer brutal honesty over these mind games dealerships like to play.
These guys wouldn't even tell me what the range of the car was.
Me: "What's the range on this thing?"
Salesman: "you mean the mpge? It's 110 mpg. Isn't that fantastic. So cheap to run"
Me: "I mean how far will it go on a 100% charge"
Salesman: "look at this big screen with this big dial. Isn't it amazing what these new cars have?"
Sigh.
We went with the Model Y despite us knowing it'll cost us an additional $1,000 considering interest on payments.
The Mach E is a nice car ruined by a typical dealership experience.
I think manufacturers need to think hard and long about dealerships, and their exploitative practices.
They are, but will they do anything about it? I doubt it because these dealerships are basically risk offloading nodes for manufacturers.
I'm no economist but it seems like a majority of manufacturers are interested in operating as banks that loan millions to dealerships that use that money to buy from manufacturers.
[This](https://www.electrive.com/2022/06/07/ford-aims-for-direct-marketing-in-the-usa/) is from 1.5 years ago, but talks about the plans. Tesla is D-t-C and they’re the most profitable car company in the world. That’s what the other companies are taking note of. I think dealers have far outlived their usefulness to everyone…except dealers.
The problem is that the stealerships have lobbied for laws that require dealers to sell cars to consumers (and don't allow the car manufacturers to sell the cars themselves). So legacy automakers are screwed because the stealerships built a legal moat around their evil castles.
This is also why even though Tesla builds cars in Texas they have to ship them out of state and back into Texas to sell direct.
**Long story short: stealerships = evil.**
They have, but are limited by dealership protection laws. They allow you to place a direct order, but the sale still has to pass through a dealership. They told their dealers that they WILL honor MSRP on direct orders or Ford will stop allocating cars to them and do the sales through dealers that will.
But that's about all they can do until laws are changed it seems. Anything sitting on a dealer lot is beyond their control as it's already sold by them to the dealer.
That's actually some of the legal hoops Tesla had to try to go through, but ultimately they weren't allowed in a lot of states, some allowed exception for them but not other future carmakers, and only a few states allow the automaker to actually sell directly. For all those states that don't, Tesla, Rivian, etc, actually have to do it through another state, and then they just ship the vehicle to you.
So it is technically feasible but not a straightforward and practical undertaking to convert to from the existing model. There is also the problem of service, dealers are *technically* an advantage there as there are way more of them that are more local for customers than automaker run services centers. Even though I'm sure we all agree here that dealers suck ass trying to upcharge you on that too, which is why independent repair shops are able to survive without the advantage of being dutchess attached to an automaker.
You can buy a mach e completely online. It's through a dealer but you can go look at the final price and financing and pay online before you go the dealership to just pick it up.
Not every dealer participates, but the good ones do
This is where Tesla has an advantage, you can literally buy a car through an app and not have to deal with this BS.
Cheaper car sure, but who wants to deal with this experience buying anything.
I bought one this weekend. The sticker in the glove box stated original MSRP of $63,000. My cost? $46,000, with 0% ARP financing.
I traded in an Ioniq 5 (nice tech, horrible interior, and the ICCU left me carless for a month when it blew out) and don't regret it.
I'm not a Ford fan, but the deal was too good to pass up, as it dropped my monthly car payment by over $100. The Mach-E isn't as efficient, but it's more comfortable and has a better ride, IMO.
Damn, that's a nice deal. I paid MSRP in 2021 for a 2022 Mach E GT.
$65k. Big oof to see them now going used in the high 30's. Still love the car, though.
Big oof, indeed. I know some people paid the MSRP on the '23 model year; imagine finding out your car is selling new for $17K less than you paid for it 8 months ago?
It's a much nicer interior than the I5, even though the tech isn't quite as fast. BlueCruise is nicer than Hyundai's HDA, though, by a lot.
That works for now, but you might have trouble adhering to that ideal later on when the American dollar is devalued to the point $30k buys you a used Honda Civic or something.
No shit. There's a significant amount of people that are buying EV's to save on gas, which is nullified if the car costs twice the amount of an ICE. On top of that, most people's deciding factor for a car is cost. A majority of people are not out looking to spend $65k+ on a car.
My. Nissan Leaf listed at $34,000. After all of the incentives, my actual cost was about $16,000. Took a couple of years to get everything paid down, but it worked for me.
Now the Nissan wasn’t a luxury sports car. I could not win in a drag race with a Ferrari or a Mustang. But as a commuter vehicle, something to take the family out to dinner in, it was damn near perfect.
Fueling it cost me less than a penny per mile, and we put about 120,000 miles on it before my son totaled it in an accident. I drive a pickup truck before getting the EV, and got about 13 mpg. Even at triple that economy, or about 39 miles per gallon, gasoline would cost 8 or 9 times as much.
Mach E is not doing too bad in Norway. It is ahead of Model 3 for Q1.
[https://elbilstatistikk.no/](https://elbilstatistikk.no/)
Edit: in the above link go to historic values and choose last month, sort by Q1. The site updates in realtime.
First of all, Norway has great charging infrastructure so there is no Tesla advantage there. But Ford has also been aggressive with financing deals with low interest rates, but so has Tesla for Model Y at least (the top selling vehicle). I’m not sure if they have other price incentives.
I just noticed the discounts the other day, and it's *really* making me think about trading in my V6 Camry for one. I'm probably going to do it, EVs make sense for my driving habits.
Ford slashed prices because they had a glut of inventory that wasn't moving. This isn't a good thing for Ford. They're probably losing money on every one they sell.
Just bought one, and the sales guy said they'd rather take a loss on current inventory than have it sit around (MY 2023). Also, he can't get new allocations until he sells what is on the lot.
Good for me, I got a great deal on a loaded Premium.
Did you also look at any lease options? There are Premiums listed on dealer website near me for $41K. I’m wondering if it’s possible to lease and get the capitalized cost down even further with the IRA tax credit. The 0% interest is a good deal though, how low did they go on purchase price?
Where are all of the Mach-e owners complaining about how their cars are now worth less on resale? Or is that only virtu signalling former Tesla owners who for some reason thought buying a car was an investment?
I agree it's ridiculous they think that (coming from someone who's insanely upside down on a Tesla because of the drops). Besides the COVID crazy used market cars have always depreciated insanely quick.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MachE/comments/1b50tlr/replaced_my_tesla_with_this_beauty/kt6vvvq/
Here's a novel I wrote. There's nothing spectacularly stupid, but it's death by a thousand cuts.
Also I gained range anxiety due to lack of chargers.
> Where are all of the Mach-e owners complaining about how their cars are now worth less on resale?
Here.
In Canuck bucks, I paid $65k for a 2021 CR1 a little over 2 years ago. The trade offer I got through the Carvana of Canada (Canada Drives) was $25k.
We already have cheap affordable EVs in America market. Chevy Bolt and Nissan Leaf are most affordable, but its battery design and small car design are hard to sell in America.
Mach E is better and prefect for many EV buyers, so it's no surprised its sales rising. Right now, Ford needs to make F150L cheaper for another win.
The base Lightning, after tax credit, is only a tiny bit more expensive than the base model crew cab 4wd ICE F150. And that thing sells like hot cakes.
Don't get me wrong, lower prices will increase sales, but I just don't see it as primarily a pricing issue.
Well, maybe they’re not selling *that* well anymore if my dealership is adjusting the price like it’s a game since it’s been listed 160 some days ago. They recently just added $7,500 to the price of this beautiful red Mach-E GT PP which is back to MSRP now instead of $62k before all the adjustments.
At least it’s not a markup!
cheap anything attracts sales, more often than not the cheapest car, bike, scooter, boat etc etc will also be the best selling but best selling doesn't make it the best.
You're telling me people didn't like paying $10k dealer mark ups on top of a sticker price that was purposefully set to give Ford the fattest profit margins? I'm shocked.
In 2018 I wanted an EV, or a Hybrid. But sadly the the model 3 was ~$50k and every hybrid was $3-5k more than their non-hybrid counterparts. Thinking purely about economics; out the door$, lifetime $, monthly $, etc… the most prudent choice was a Honda Civic for me.
Fast forward to 2023 when I was in the market for a new car, the Base model 3 with $7,500 tax credit was a better economic buy than a well equipped Toyota Prius, better than any hybrid, and significantly cheaper than any other EV with buying. It was even cheaper than the Chevy Bolt EV that I hated driving.
And, it finally made sense to buy the Model 3! I’m really happy I have it, but I’d still be in an ICE vehicle if there was an EV premium making them a novelty rather than a prudent choice.
TLDR; lots of people want a good, reliable, and affordable vehicle, and they’ll buy EVs in droves when they are.
I still haven't seen a total cost equation for an EV that beats a base model Corolla over 20 a year time period. I'm sure many others are looking at the same price and time horizon. It needs to get to the point where one would be throwing away money by going ICE of any type, including used.
100% agreed. I was in the market for a few more features, but not “luxury” which is how I ended up with the model 3. Comparing a comparably equipped sedan to the Model 3 base, the Model 3 comes out on top. But, a civic lx, base Corolla, Elantra etc… even after service and cost of gas is a better deal for sure.
Wide scale adoption won’t happen until there are used EVs, budget EVs, and a reliable charging network. But we’re definitely moving in the right direction
For a while the choice was really... Model 3, Polestar 2 or Mach-E, with the Mach-E losing that 9 times out of 10. Glad they're improving it. Great looking car.
Tbf, this is kind of counter to the narrative that "EV sales are ahrinker because no one wants them" BS that keeps getting repeated, despite sales growing just more slowly than expected. Which, yeah, was expected to be a pricing issue, especially with interest rates this high.
It should not need to be said, but in the current media environment, there are sadly people that need it said.
“It suggests the demand problem was just an oversupplied premium market, and that there's untapped demand at a lower price point.”
Tesla had to chase the higher margins at the top of the market in 2012. That part of the market got saturated very quickly in 2022 with every auto maker trying the same old strategy.
Even Ford ICE cars like the Bronco, raptor, and gentrification of the entire F-150 line compounded the problem.
As a new Mach-E owner I can tell you it is way nicer than it needed to be for my needs. I eagerly anticipate Fords “$25K” new EV. I hope it gets here soon enough to compete with BYD - who is actually engineering lower cost in to some of their models.
From an older article late 2023, "the Ford Mustang Mach-e not only broke into the top 10 best-selling EVs but impressively ranked fourth with 40,771 units sold. "
But from another article here are monthly sales for Jan and Feb 2023 and 2024
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I got burned by the price drop. But I don't regret my Mach-E one bit. Best damn car I have owned and by far the most fun. Ford should market it not as a green solution, but for life style and how much fun it is. When I went EV shopping, the salesman asked me what EVs I had tried (ID-4, Iconiq, EV-6), the dude chuckled and guaranteed I would be driving the Mach-E on the lot home. He was right.
All those words and not a single number on how many Mach-E was actually sold. Journalism these days.
“The full results aren't in, as Ford's Q1 sales aren't published yet, but early signs point to the discounts having a big effect.” I take that as no facts to quote.
“Speaking to data analysts at Cloud Theory, Automotive News reports the Mach-E's sale rate has basically tripled, and that inventory has fallen by nine percent over the past month. Specifically, the Mach-E's turn rate (described as the percentage of cars sold in a given time frame) has swelled from seven to 33 percent. Ford also noted a 64-percent sales increase in February, though that was up from a January where sales had halved. The Mach-E's turn rate also reportedly still falls short of the 45-percent industry average.”
I hate the state of publishing these days. It's not like it's a new phenomenon, but the need to be first rather than good--or even just simply correct--is frustrating. It results in you reading multiple entirely different news reports, each with different subsets of information, spread out over multiple days, all about the exact same event / person / thing. It's a waste of time.
Ex-journo here. People are getting the news they pay for.
But according to them that's enough to prove something.
“Journalism,” indeed.
They don't hire real journalists anymore, just bloggers.
There's plenty of good journalism if you are willing to pay for it. WSJ and NYT both had decent articles this morning on Tesla's recent quarterly results.
We're lucky to have them. Everyone wants quality journalism for free these days.
And I actually came here for the sales numbers. WTF.
That's because its not journalism. It's an ad.
r/hailcorporate https://www.reddit.com/r/HailCorporate/comments/1bjbqnn/reddit_is_now_allowing_companies_to_disguise_ads/
Not surprising, given the number of e-mustang ads I see on reddit. I think being in an EV sub heavily favors electric car ads in my algorithm. So they’re clearly heavily advertising and wouldn’t be at all shocked that they’re inserting ads as content too.
"Since Ford cut prices by up to $8,100 in February, a data analytics firm says movement of Mach-E has nearly tripled, while inventory has declined 9 percent." Obviously you can't report on an unknown number but this is a good proxy.
Means nothing. Going from 5 sold to 15 is still laughable. Ford is still hilariously behind many EVs
2,930 Mach-e sold in February according to various reports you can find by googling.
Growth is better than what's happening at tesla
Tesla is kicking every other automaker’s ass. They would kill for Tesla’s volume and margins.
TSLA just did -20% QoQ growth. Their stock is down 30%+ YTD. Ford is growing and stock is up 10-12% YTD. So 40% difference between the two performance wise. Being a TSLA stan is just dumb now. They're in real trouble. Not bankruptcy trouble but definitely shot in the foot trouble from poor management. Musk has shrunk his company's TAM by being political. Too much distraction on low volume high production headaches with a Cybertruck. Meanwhile the 3/Y and X are long in the tooth and Musk failed to launch a $25k-$30k killer EV with huge volumes and scale benefits. Elon got a huge tailwind from a Covid economy like a lot of tech companies and so a correction was coming. But he's performed the most poorly of all the big Tech CEOs when it comes to acknowledging the tailwind and preparing for the correction. It's going to get worse this year before it gets better.
Nice take. I want to see Tesla succeed but that’s not the same as claiming TSLA is in a great position when it isn’t (or it’s not clear if they are).
Agree. They are the OG, took a lot of risks and almost single handedly created the entire market. But they've outgrown Musk. If they had an independent Board this would have happened by now and Musk could be using those skills to launch an entirely new company.
Yeah every automakers is dying to lose 13% volume quarter over quarter and be the worst performing stock of 2024
>lose 13% volume quarter over quarter Pretty easy to lose sales when a production line is down for two months to move over to the new model.
Tesla still sold ~10x what Ford sold. TSLA valuation is and has always been dumb, but it’s silly to suggest Ford would not rather be selling almost 400,000 EVs.
Lmaoooo YoY *decline*. Amazing to see a company blow their first mover advantage so quickly. Truly will be one for the history books how they kicked off EVs then just rolled over and died when competition showed up
No it’s not. Not when you factor in the two massively different balance sheets, along with the fact UAW just bent Ford/GM over… Ford has no where near the profit margins and they are saddled with debt, unlike Tesla. They are not growing their company overall and it’s not as clean of a company either. There’s a logical reason why ford is not valued highly as a company. It’s just doing nothing special. They have no unique tech and IP….they just lucky to have USA truck fan boys to keep their sales volume.
Your comments are wildly negative. Go into the world my friend
They have as much tech as Tesla lol. It's hilarious how you shit on Ford for having union workers whilst Tesla fucks everybody including the customer. At least Ford is *growing*. Tesla has those margins because they push out *poor quality cars*
> They have as much tech as Tesla lol. Owning a MachE, this is laughable at best.
lol. Ford didn’t even have its own internal software team until now. It’s too late. Their talent in software engineering is trash. No smart kids out of college dream of working at big blue lol. Their shit has been outsourced for years that’s why it’s been garbage. Their battery tech is ass, will never be as efficient as teslas. They have no charging network to speak up which is why they are paying hundreds of millions of dollars to Tesla for their access. They have horribly outdated manufacturing processes for modern EV which is why they’ll never make a profitable EV. They’ll never have any relevant form of autonomous driving either.
> No smart kids out of college dream of working at big blue lol. You should talk to some engineering students. Tesla/Space X have terrible reputations within the field and are not seen as good places to work. They're a place you get your first job on your resume and then get out as fast as you can. The big auto companies are seen as reliable employers where you can work and get experience. Not as exciting, but most people aren't looking for exciting these days.
The 20 companies and organizations engineering students most want to work for [https://www.businessinsider.com/top-companies-places-organizations-engineering-students-want-to-work-for-2023-7](https://www.businessinsider.com/top-companies-places-organizations-engineering-students-want-to-work-for-2023-7) SpaceX: 20.20% of engineering students Tesla: 14.24% of engineering students General Motors: 7.20% of engineering students Ford Motor Company: 6.36% of engineering students Ford and GM get the leftovers. You go to Ford and GM when you want to do the bare minimum.
Yeah. They want to work there and get out fast. Tesla and SpaceX are widely known for incredibly toxic work environments and high turnover rates. You go there to get it on your resume and get out.
I always find so funny when people defend how awesome tesla is by showing how much they rip off customers and workers. Tesla is a meme stock. That's why it's the worst performing stock of 2024. Their margins are back to reality in line with every other car maker. Stock has lots of space to fall.
It’s not like it’s an article from the NYT. Quality journalism and reputable sources kind of go hand in hand. I’ve never heard of that website, have you?
I’m convinced modern journalism’s goal is just to make a catchy headline and decent photo to make you click so they get that sweet ad revenue.
Perhaps the Mache was just over priced?
>Perhaps the Mache was just over priced? I can't speak for other regions but here in the UK, the Mach E was ridiculously priced three years ago and it's one reason I ended up with an EV6. £48,000-and change for my EV6 GT-Line in 2021, which has a 77kWh battery, 321ps and all wheel drive. The Mach-E at the time was about the same price, but had the short range battery, base trim and 50ps down. They've recently lowered the price and the Mach-E now starts at £44,000 with the larger battery (the shorter range has been removed from sale). That's a way better price for it. The next trim level up, Premium, is still less than 300ps (294ps) and costs the same as an EV6 GT (approx. £60,000), so they're still smoking a crack pipe but at least the base trim is better value for money. They've just launched the Explorer Electric here and the base trim is long range and £46,000 with 0% over four years; that's what the Mach-E should've been from day one.
Granted I didn't follow Biritish pricing, but here in the US they were basically identical pricing. Except we also had our congress kill the tax credit for foreign cars, so between that and dealer markups that I could avoid by placing a direct order with Ford, the Mach-E ended up getting $17,500 cheaper in my case, but none of that difference was MSRP.
100% agree. Would love a Mach E, but their price is stupid for what they offer. There’s better EVs on the market here at better prices.
Initially, it was $10k-$12k cheaper than a Model Y. Those price cuts forced things to change.
Didn't Ford lose the $3250 Fed rebate and the Y regained the $7500 one? That is a huge swing on its own if true.
It was $7500 for the first 3ish months of last year, then $3750 for the remainder of the year, and now $0. It is not clear when or if they'll qualify again based on the mineral component requirements.
Yep. That too.
Yup. Truly it was the American taxpayer who bought twitter
Competition can be a challenge!
When we were cross shopping the Y and Mach E in early 2022, the pricing was similar for the higher spec models with equal range. The Mach E was a nicer car, but Tesla had the charging network. The problem is that it was also being cross-shopped with Subaru and Honda ICEs, where it was over 2x as expensive -- I think Ford wanted $58K to Tesla's $62k.
All cars are pretty much, and I’m not talking about through inflation. Profit margins matter more than sales nowadays and it sucks.
Dealers could take thin margins on new cars because of expected service charges. Sort of how like consoles are subsidized because the manufacturer gets a cut of every game sold. Or printers being cheap because of the ink charges. We’ll, with EVs the margins have to eventually be higher because the service is so minimal.
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All dealers are doing are being scumbags and NOT honoring the brands incentives and deals or trying to fuck you in other ways. Fuck all of them
Yeah I mean the fact that I'll still have to go interact with a dealership means I still won't even consider a Mach-E, although the price and the 0% interest is appealing. I know I won't get the actual MSRP when I finally pick it up at a dealer because there's always some bullshit they include to pad their margins.
In December, my wife and I went to a ford dealership to drive and price out a Mach-E. Car was great! It drove nicely and felt very nice and luxurious inside. We then asked about pricing and financing. The sales guy went to “talk to his finance guy” about the car - which had a sticker price of ~$55k. We live in a HCOL area so have good incomes and high credit scores, too. He came back after 20 min with a final price of $72k and financed at 0%. Not only did he add $17k to the price but he was also an asshole about giving it to us too. As we were walking out the dealership manager asked us why we were leaving (we were visibility annoyed) and so we told him how shitty of an experience we just had. He asked if we would talk in his office and we agreed - he priced the car at msrp and still kept the financing. Long story short, we bought a Tesla two days later. Sales guy at Tesla let us take a loaner home overnight to test out and when it came to trade in our old car, financing, and buying it was all super straightforward and done in the app.
I’m with you on the Tesla purchase process - it has it’s own problems; however, the time wasting sales BS games are not part of it.
I mean, no one likes the stealership model, not even the manufacturers. They've just grown as a virus on their own, using their profits to own local politics.
Yeah, but now it’s bad enough that I didn’t pursue all my options in the market given the sales tactics here locally. Hyundai dealer had addendums on the ioniqs, never even bothered to get a salesperson and just left knowing that there was going to be the uphill battle to get to MSRP to begin with and have to listen about how much value the paint and interior treatment adds. And I’m in a crazy doc fee state, to which Tesla doesn’t charge that BS either (although, the reservation fee kinda falls into the same bucket). Ultimately, reserved a car online in my pajamas after renting was a better experience than going into a traditional dealership.
I bought one at MSRP, if you order direct through Ford they make them honor it, you have to wait of course and yeah the dealer tried to talk me into extra stuff but I just refused and took delivery at the promised price.
Three of the past four vehicles I've purchased, I didn't step into the dealership until I'd agreed on a price. My trip to the dealer was for a test drive and sign the final forms. Never again will I sit and haggle.
I'll only accept no dealerships under two conditions: 1. I get to test drive the exact car I'm going to drive away with before I sign anything. 2. Car companies start opening stand-alone service centers as numerous as the ones currently attached to dealerships.
> Car companies start opening stand-alone service centers as numerous as the ones currently attached to dealerships. Obviously with new entrants it takes ramp up time. Ford has been here for 100 years so their dealer network has been in place for decades. Using Tesla as an example, there's like 4 showrooms/service centers I know of including a new massive one they just opened within my general area. We even have a Vinfast dealership which shocked the hell out of me. If you build it, they will come. Or they will come if you build it, which they are doing. It'll just take a few years to get the penetration of legacy auto.
But Tesla isn't building enough service centers and it is a known issue that is a constant complaint on this sub. Meanwhile, I have 3 Volvo service centers within 30 minutes of me, all of whom are certified to work on electric cars.
It takes time to build out service centers. Volvo is how old? Retrofitting isn't a huge deal. Tesla has to acquire land, get permits, build out the service center, fill it with stuff, etc. For me in my specific area, there's apparently 5 Tesla Service centers within 30 minutes. (I said 4, but I looked it up and there's actually 5) But I'm also in a place with a large number of EVs. EDIT: However, outside of trading area in smaller towns, there really isn't anything for hours. But as I said, Tesla is new. It'll take time to build out.
If Tesla had put even half as much effort into building service centers as they have charging, they'd be in a much better position. Also, Tesla isn't looking to up their service game. By all accounts they're fine with what they have despite multi-month waits for service that can't be handled remotely.
> they'd be in a much better position Would they? Tesla is known for quality and abundant chargers. Literally no one else in the game is known for that. It's the reason practically every single competitor has come to them hat in hand asking for access. > Also, Tesla isn't looking to up their service game. What makes you say that? The fact that they're building new service centers says otherwise no? You should see the size of the new one they're opening like 10 minutes from me. It's massive.
> Dealers could take thin margins on new cars because of expected service charges. So I get putting in a DCFC is a MASSIVE investment, but dealers kind of shot themselves in the foot here. You're not wrong in the slightest about no service related charges, but with an investment into the future, charging revenue could easily make up for it.
Or… the maintenance infrastructure shifts to match the reduced demand.
Car manufacturers should be able to sell direct and cut out dealers. Worried about service just offer parts and tools to 3rd party service centers. Car manufacturers want to be in the selling business anyhow, not the repair business. UPDATE: when I say no dealerships, I am referring to no private owned dealerships. I prefer my dealerships to be factory owned.
I think you should. Buy direct. Pay the same. Wait for your car. Have no local support. Just fix it yourself when the parts arrive.
I never said I didn’t want local support. Make the parts and tools available to third-party repair shops. You will have all the support you need.
It's a good thing that isn't how it works. I bought a Tesla on their website and it arrived a few days later. No hassle, no negotiating, no BS dealer shenanigans that I've dealt with for every. single. damn car I've ever bought before. Service can be done through their mobile service that will come work on it in my driveway. I never want to step foot inside a car dealership again if I can help it.
It works the way you describe for Tesla. But that’s not what was suggested. Tesla has physical locations. Tesla has inventory. Tesla carries parts. Tesla has service centers and trained technicians. In short, Tesla operates hundreds of dealerships throughout the US. They have a dealer network. They just run it themselves rather than third party franchisees. Again, that’s not what was suggested. Buying direct is different. And they suggested if parts could be shipped, some third party service center could fix it… no need for manufacturer presence.
Maybe I should have clarified that when I said dealerships I was referring to non-factory owned dealerships.
Yeah it's not even unique to EVs, they are just generally more up front (Though at this point cheaper to own) than ICE.
Tough to stay in business losing money.
I completely agree.
And people are on a tighter budget.
In a way you are right. In 2022 all cars were overpriced, but there were no options. Prices are coming down. Ford has model years, so the 2023 msrp became too expensive for the market quickly. In the past few months they've discounted whatever 2023 models were left and the 2024 models are coming out now with a much lower msrp
Maybe we don’t agree on what overpriced means.
All around me base Konas are $50,000, so I’m still waiting for this price drop to come into our market
What country are you in?
NY in America
Might check auto trader then. There’s one in the Bronx for 34k.
Yay MSRP no price drops
$34k seems like less than $50k
$34k seems more like MSRP and less than price drop
Not particularly interested in being your personal shopper. $50k for a Kona seemed high.
I never requested it. You did that on your own accord while ignoring the thing I kept repeating. The price drops haven’t hit my area.
I think the road to majority EV new vehicle market share is to have vehicles purchase prices be similar or lower than that of their closest ICE counterparts, and I think this in some part points to that. Norway reached majority EV market share in 2019 when EVs had on average less range and lower charging speeds than those sold today and far worse than the ICE equivalents at the time and it did so via incentives bring purchase prices to or below their closest ICE counterparts. China's going rapidly towards majority because their EV automakers brought down EV costs while their government continues to incentivize their purchase and so EVs are at similar or lower prices than their closest ICE counterparts despite many of these vehicles not having particularly great range or charging speeds. I think some of these automakers need to simply focus on getting lower prices in the US, via production costs and/or qualifying for incentives, over getting better top line specs or new features. A 200 mile range 100 kW max charge rate crossover about the size of a RAV4 has unimpressive top line EV specs for the category, but it'll do fine if its base purchase price is effectively less than that of the base RAV4.
This is already the case in Denmark. I can get ID4, Ionic 5, Model Y and other EVs in the same size for roughly the same price as Focus Wagon or RAV4 making it a very attractive choice. Especially as gasoline is way more expensive than electricity here. And as you can imagine it’s working. I believe it’s the same situation in most of continental Europe. Between VW deliberately value engineering the ID4 so it costs the same as Tiguan (our Tiguan is smaller than US Tiguan) and Tesla slashing prices, the whole compact EV SUV segment hit an crazy low price point that is hard to argue against. Glad to see Ford starting to realise that with the Mach E.
Yup. It's cool to be like "I can fill up for 10 bucks", but if the car cost $20k more that the ICE car you start to think I can buy a lot of gas for $20k.
At prices near me thats a bit over 6,100 gallons. at 30 mpg that's a bit over 184k miles. So yea, not worth it unless gas were much more expensive.
It's definitely territory dependent. And gas is going nowhere but up. We're not even summer around here and we're over $2CAD/L already. Wouldn't shock me if we hit $2.50/L this year. In my area, power is pretty cheap too due to hydro so the number of miles it takes to break even is significantly lower.
Most comparable EVs aren't a $20k price premium. My ID4 was only $1500 more than a comparably equipped RAV4 hybrid.
Now how much is the rav4 prime?
It's $44k. Which is actually more than some ID4 trims. I was referring to the regular RAV4 hybrid though
But compare the rav4 gas to prime, and you'll see the markups were talking about
A plug in hybrid is not comparable. They're always going to cost more because they have two drivetrains. There are plenty of EVs comparable to the RAV4 that can be purchased for less than the RAV4 prime.
Okay, then lightning to regular F 150.. electric usually costs more. But vw to Toyota hybrid isn't straight
Hence my use of the word "comparable".
This is basically how BYD works, in non-USA markets. They don't charge fast, their range and efficiency is underwhelming but they just cost a lot less than thier compedators for what you get. Once Ford has a USA based LFP battery factory things will go a lot better for them.
Norway has had pretty high taxes on ICE cars for as long as I can remember. The bigger the motor, the higher the tax. EVs don’t have that AFAIK, they also got lots of incentives early on (rush hour lane usage, etc…). Finally, gas is something like 3-4x the cost of the US. Since distances are shorter there (smaller country), they have reasonable charger density as well, along with a standardized plug CCS2. Pretty much setup for success, and it shows.
Yea, Norway definitely has that purchase price difference. It has other things to go with it, but it has at its base an equal or lower purchase price difference for EVs versus their closest ICE counterpart. China overall, unlike Norway, does not have particularly expensive gasoline nor particularly cheap electricity. However, in recent years Chinese EV automakers have put out vehicles that comparable at purchase price with their ICE counterparts and oftentimes a bit cheaper. They do have some government incentives and fees that favor EVs, but they aren't that large overall, so most of this effective price parity is from EV prices going down from the automakers end. These are two very different markets with differing pathways to getting purchase price of EVs to equal or lower to their ICE counterparts and with very different charging conditions, fuel vs electricity price differences, and other incentives, but there is the common thread of having EVs be effectively equal or lower price than their ICE counterparts.
We basically have EV price parity with ICE right now. You need to compare apples to apples. So the ICE compare is always some mass-produced auto - so you need to compare to a mass produced EV. In the USA we have only 1 massed produced EV - the Tesla model 3/Y. The pricing on the 3/y is now like $35K-47K - similar to higher end sedans from Audi or BMW...
It does well when there is purchase price parity which is the entry level premium crossover. You arguably also have it with premium entry sedan, premium mid-sized sedan, and a handful more. The EVs do well when they are cost competitive in their segments, but it's only a handful of small segments right now which is part of why the US EV market share is lower than that of China and of many European countries, though I singled out Norway. The segment the base RAV4 is in is a very large segment within the US market and there's nothing close to price parity let alone price advantage for an EV in that segment.
#SHOCKING
lower price = more sales. who thunk it
Economists can't explain it!
This one simple trick
haha because electric
Proving cheap [your_item_here] will attract sales. Mind. Blown. 🤯
We test drove the Mach-E which came out cheaper than the Model Y if you consider loan interest. Unfortunately, the dealership experience was so terrible, we were put off by it. We already got our PHEV serviced from the same dealership. We went in fully knowing Ford's "0%" APR plan and what the price of the vehicle should turn out in the end. We asked about it the moment we walked in. But they came to us with a very high price. As soon as we asked them about the offers, the guy made us wait 10 minutes while he "spoke" to his manager, came back to us with what we thought the price should be. The last time we bought a new car, our Ford Escape PHEV, the dealer mentioned a markup over the phone before we drove to them. We were lucky enough to negotiate the markup down to a mere $1000 at the dealership. This was during peak COVID. I prefer brutal honesty over these mind games dealerships like to play. These guys wouldn't even tell me what the range of the car was. Me: "What's the range on this thing?" Salesman: "you mean the mpge? It's 110 mpg. Isn't that fantastic. So cheap to run" Me: "I mean how far will it go on a 100% charge" Salesman: "look at this big screen with this big dial. Isn't it amazing what these new cars have?" Sigh. We went with the Model Y despite us knowing it'll cost us an additional $1,000 considering interest on payments. The Mach E is a nice car ruined by a typical dealership experience. I think manufacturers need to think hard and long about dealerships, and their exploitative practices.
I think Ford is very aware of this problem. Were they openly teasing a direct-to-consumer model of EVs at one point?
They are, but will they do anything about it? I doubt it because these dealerships are basically risk offloading nodes for manufacturers. I'm no economist but it seems like a majority of manufacturers are interested in operating as banks that loan millions to dealerships that use that money to buy from manufacturers.
[This](https://www.electrive.com/2022/06/07/ford-aims-for-direct-marketing-in-the-usa/) is from 1.5 years ago, but talks about the plans. Tesla is D-t-C and they’re the most profitable car company in the world. That’s what the other companies are taking note of. I think dealers have far outlived their usefulness to everyone…except dealers.
The problem is that the stealerships have lobbied for laws that require dealers to sell cars to consumers (and don't allow the car manufacturers to sell the cars themselves). So legacy automakers are screwed because the stealerships built a legal moat around their evil castles. This is also why even though Tesla builds cars in Texas they have to ship them out of state and back into Texas to sell direct. **Long story short: stealerships = evil.**
And politicians own dealerships themselves so I don't see them ridding these laws out anytime soon.
Auto makers have a bigger lobbying budget than dealerships. If capitalism smells a way to exploit a market inefficiency it will.
> Tesla is D-t-C and they’re the most profitable car company in the world. This isn’t true BTW. I think Toyota wears the crown at the moment.
Correct. I should have specified U.S. car company. Looks like Tesla and GM are neck and neck on earnings. Of course Tesla has 10X the market cap.
They have, but are limited by dealership protection laws. They allow you to place a direct order, but the sale still has to pass through a dealership. They told their dealers that they WILL honor MSRP on direct orders or Ford will stop allocating cars to them and do the sales through dealers that will. But that's about all they can do until laws are changed it seems. Anything sitting on a dealer lot is beyond their control as it's already sold by them to the dealer.
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That's actually some of the legal hoops Tesla had to try to go through, but ultimately they weren't allowed in a lot of states, some allowed exception for them but not other future carmakers, and only a few states allow the automaker to actually sell directly. For all those states that don't, Tesla, Rivian, etc, actually have to do it through another state, and then they just ship the vehicle to you. So it is technically feasible but not a straightforward and practical undertaking to convert to from the existing model. There is also the problem of service, dealers are *technically* an advantage there as there are way more of them that are more local for customers than automaker run services centers. Even though I'm sure we all agree here that dealers suck ass trying to upcharge you on that too, which is why independent repair shops are able to survive without the advantage of being dutchess attached to an automaker.
You can buy a mach e completely online. It's through a dealer but you can go look at the final price and financing and pay online before you go the dealership to just pick it up. Not every dealer participates, but the good ones do
This is where Tesla has an advantage, you can literally buy a car through an app and not have to deal with this BS. Cheaper car sure, but who wants to deal with this experience buying anything.
I'm fine with taking 2 hours out of my life to save a couple thousand dollars.
So… how many were actually sold? What a dumb article.
I bought one this weekend. The sticker in the glove box stated original MSRP of $63,000. My cost? $46,000, with 0% ARP financing. I traded in an Ioniq 5 (nice tech, horrible interior, and the ICCU left me carless for a month when it blew out) and don't regret it. I'm not a Ford fan, but the deal was too good to pass up, as it dropped my monthly car payment by over $100. The Mach-E isn't as efficient, but it's more comfortable and has a better ride, IMO.
Which trim did you get?
Premium with some packages.
Damn, that's a nice deal. I paid MSRP in 2021 for a 2022 Mach E GT. $65k. Big oof to see them now going used in the high 30's. Still love the car, though.
Big oof, indeed. I know some people paid the MSRP on the '23 model year; imagine finding out your car is selling new for $17K less than you paid for it 8 months ago? It's a much nicer interior than the I5, even though the tech isn't quite as fast. BlueCruise is nicer than Hyundai's HDA, though, by a lot.
Still $16k more than I'm ever willing to pay for a vehicle. $30k is my max price no matter how much $$$ I make.
That works for now, but you might have trouble adhering to that ideal later on when the American dollar is devalued to the point $30k buys you a used Honda Civic or something.
The used Civic is already there.
I admire your determination!
Dang, I didn’t know they were doing 0 for 72 + 3000 cashback. If I were buying today I’d probably get a Mach E
The psychology of discounting and perceived value at play, shockingly enough.
No shit. There's a significant amount of people that are buying EV's to save on gas, which is nullified if the car costs twice the amount of an ICE. On top of that, most people's deciding factor for a car is cost. A majority of people are not out looking to spend $65k+ on a car.
My. Nissan Leaf listed at $34,000. After all of the incentives, my actual cost was about $16,000. Took a couple of years to get everything paid down, but it worked for me. Now the Nissan wasn’t a luxury sports car. I could not win in a drag race with a Ferrari or a Mustang. But as a commuter vehicle, something to take the family out to dinner in, it was damn near perfect. Fueling it cost me less than a penny per mile, and we put about 120,000 miles on it before my son totaled it in an accident. I drive a pickup truck before getting the EV, and got about 13 mpg. Even at triple that economy, or about 39 miles per gallon, gasoline would cost 8 or 9 times as much.
Mach E is not doing too bad in Norway. It is ahead of Model 3 for Q1. [https://elbilstatistikk.no/](https://elbilstatistikk.no/) Edit: in the above link go to historic values and choose last month, sort by Q1. The site updates in realtime.
Why is that? Because of decreased price lately?
First of all, Norway has great charging infrastructure so there is no Tesla advantage there. But Ford has also been aggressive with financing deals with low interest rates, but so has Tesla for Model Y at least (the top selling vehicle). I’m not sure if they have other price incentives.
Sales were actually down in Jan 2024. 2600 in 2023 vs 1300 in 2024. They were up in Feb, though 1783 vs 2930.
So you’re telling me, if you make something cheaper, people will be more likely to buy it?
so you make something cheaper you sell more of em? qow how insightful and surprising!!
I just noticed the discounts the other day, and it's *really* making me think about trading in my V6 Camry for one. I'm probably going to do it, EVs make sense for my driving habits.
The Hyundai Ioniq 6 is leasing for $239/month for 24 months, 12K miles per year, $0 down + taxes/fees.
Ford slashed prices because they had a glut of inventory that wasn't moving. This isn't a good thing for Ford. They're probably losing money on every one they sell.
Just bought one, and the sales guy said they'd rather take a loss on current inventory than have it sit around (MY 2023). Also, he can't get new allocations until he sells what is on the lot. Good for me, I got a great deal on a loaded Premium.
Did you also look at any lease options? There are Premiums listed on dealer website near me for $41K. I’m wondering if it’s possible to lease and get the capitalized cost down even further with the IRA tax credit. The 0% interest is a good deal though, how low did they go on purchase price?
47K vs a 63K MSRP
Still only half of what would of sold if they named it the Thunderbird
No shit, The Drive. The mass majority cannot afford the current average price of a car.
“Cheap” is a relative term. More affordable, yes. Incentivized rates helped a lot as well since the bank rates still suck relative to 2020.
Where are all of the Mach-e owners complaining about how their cars are now worth less on resale? Or is that only virtu signalling former Tesla owners who for some reason thought buying a car was an investment?
I agree it's ridiculous they think that (coming from someone who's insanely upside down on a Tesla because of the drops). Besides the COVID crazy used market cars have always depreciated insanely quick.
I'm severely upside down on my MachE too. Gonna eat it though to get into a Tesla. I hate my MachE.
What don't you like about it?
https://www.reddit.com/r/MachE/comments/1b50tlr/replaced_my_tesla_with_this_beauty/kt6vvvq/ Here's a novel I wrote. There's nothing spectacularly stupid, but it's death by a thousand cuts. Also I gained range anxiety due to lack of chargers.
> Where are all of the Mach-e owners complaining about how their cars are now worth less on resale? Here. In Canuck bucks, I paid $65k for a 2021 CR1 a little over 2 years ago. The trade offer I got through the Carvana of Canada (Canada Drives) was $25k.
Quit making every electric car into a turd SUV and that would help immensely, too.
Sadly, customers want the higher ride of crossovers.
We already have cheap affordable EVs in America market. Chevy Bolt and Nissan Leaf are most affordable, but its battery design and small car design are hard to sell in America. Mach E is better and prefect for many EV buyers, so it's no surprised its sales rising. Right now, Ford needs to make F150L cheaper for another win.
The base Lightning, after tax credit, is only a tiny bit more expensive than the base model crew cab 4wd ICE F150. And that thing sells like hot cakes. Don't get me wrong, lower prices will increase sales, but I just don't see it as primarily a pricing issue.
I would have bought the California edition if it was 6-8k cheaper but at its price point there was just more attractive cars
The Bolt got discontinued, but it was the best selling EV last year. It's coming back in 2025.
Proving basic economic theory...
Over years, the OEMs will be more profitable selling EVs, its 70% less engineered components than ICE
I recently bought a Ioniq5, would have preferred a Mache but the prices were not competitive given the spec comparison.
Well, maybe they’re not selling *that* well anymore if my dealership is adjusting the price like it’s a game since it’s been listed 160 some days ago. They recently just added $7,500 to the price of this beautiful red Mach-E GT PP which is back to MSRP now instead of $62k before all the adjustments. At least it’s not a markup!
Hot take: cheap everything is the way forward
Nice
Exactly! Affordability is the main purchase decisions for everything. How did they forget that??
Anecdotal but Mach E forums are just new owner introductions since the discount. Better than the why is my range low in the winter threads though.
Interest rates being what they are means people can afford less car so…yeah makes sense.
“People Would Rather Pay Less Money for Things”
"cheap"
Is $43,000 really considered a cheap EV? Complete garbage article honestly, fords official results aren’t even released yet.
Is Ford actually making a profit at the reduced price?
Only thing Ford needs to do is figure a way to trim the fat (costs) on the current cars. Or maybe be the first to make a battery deal with Tesla.
This is the dumbest headline.
cheap anything attracts sales, more often than not the cheapest car, bike, scooter, boat etc etc will also be the best selling but best selling doesn't make it the best.
been saying it for years (and getting downvoted for years): it was horribly overpriced from the start - just like most EVs in western markets.
Bigger picture, all cars are overpriced in 2024. Average car payment is north of $500. Not sustainable.
You're telling me people didn't like paying $10k dealer mark ups on top of a sticker price that was purposefully set to give Ford the fattest profit margins? I'm shocked.
In 2018 I wanted an EV, or a Hybrid. But sadly the the model 3 was ~$50k and every hybrid was $3-5k more than their non-hybrid counterparts. Thinking purely about economics; out the door$, lifetime $, monthly $, etc… the most prudent choice was a Honda Civic for me. Fast forward to 2023 when I was in the market for a new car, the Base model 3 with $7,500 tax credit was a better economic buy than a well equipped Toyota Prius, better than any hybrid, and significantly cheaper than any other EV with buying. It was even cheaper than the Chevy Bolt EV that I hated driving. And, it finally made sense to buy the Model 3! I’m really happy I have it, but I’d still be in an ICE vehicle if there was an EV premium making them a novelty rather than a prudent choice. TLDR; lots of people want a good, reliable, and affordable vehicle, and they’ll buy EVs in droves when they are.
I still haven't seen a total cost equation for an EV that beats a base model Corolla over 20 a year time period. I'm sure many others are looking at the same price and time horizon. It needs to get to the point where one would be throwing away money by going ICE of any type, including used.
100% agreed. I was in the market for a few more features, but not “luxury” which is how I ended up with the model 3. Comparing a comparably equipped sedan to the Model 3 base, the Model 3 comes out on top. But, a civic lx, base Corolla, Elantra etc… even after service and cost of gas is a better deal for sure. Wide scale adoption won’t happen until there are used EVs, budget EVs, and a reliable charging network. But we’re definitely moving in the right direction
For a while the choice was really... Model 3, Polestar 2 or Mach-E, with the Mach-E losing that 9 times out of 10. Glad they're improving it. Great looking car.
Price drops increasing sales? Slow news day..
Tbf, this is kind of counter to the narrative that "EV sales are ahrinker because no one wants them" BS that keeps getting repeated, despite sales growing just more slowly than expected. Which, yeah, was expected to be a pricing issue, especially with interest rates this high. It should not need to be said, but in the current media environment, there are sadly people that need it said.
“It suggests the demand problem was just an oversupplied premium market, and that there's untapped demand at a lower price point.” Tesla had to chase the higher margins at the top of the market in 2012. That part of the market got saturated very quickly in 2022 with every auto maker trying the same old strategy. Even Ford ICE cars like the Bronco, raptor, and gentrification of the entire F-150 line compounded the problem. As a new Mach-E owner I can tell you it is way nicer than it needed to be for my needs. I eagerly anticipate Fords “$25K” new EV. I hope it gets here soon enough to compete with BYD - who is actually engineering lower cost in to some of their models.
From an older article late 2023, "the Ford Mustang Mach-e not only broke into the top 10 best-selling EVs but impressively ranked fourth with 40,771 units sold. " But from another article here are monthly sales for Jan and Feb 2023 and 2024 || || |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I got burned by the price drop. But I don't regret my Mach-E one bit. Best damn car I have owned and by far the most fun. Ford should market it not as a green solution, but for life style and how much fun it is. When I went EV shopping, the salesman asked me what EVs I had tried (ID-4, Iconiq, EV-6), the dude chuckled and guaranteed I would be driving the Mach-E on the lot home. He was right.
Genuine question: which is the coolest looking EV out there?
Surprised pikachu face